HARD TIMES AT HARD TIMES
By Greg L | 9 July 2006 | Prince William County | 9 Comments
It seems that while Hard Times Cafe is an upstanding organization that serves great food, one franchisee in Woodbridge has taken it upon himself to harass firearms owners who visit his restaurant. Too bad, as I liked to eat there after taking the family to Potomac Mills or Ikea.
Many of you are probably aware that it is illegal to carry a concealed firearm where alcohol is served. So for those of us who carry a firearm for self-defense, when we visit a restaurant which serves alcoholic beverages, we have to transition to “open carry” where we ensure that our firearm is carried in plain view. Of course responsible firearms owners don’t consume alcoholic beverages while they have a firearm. Many restaurant owners are familiar with the law, and don’t mind having law-abiding patrons demonstrate that criminal activity at their businesses might possibly bear some severe consequences. It’s sort of like having people come to your place of business and pay you for the priviledge of deterring criminals that might otherwise target you.
But for Hard Times at Potomac Festival Plaza, the owner has decided to get his knickers in a knot and ask those patrons with firearms to leave. Not only does this turn away business, but it advertises that the business is a soft target for any criminals who might be less concerned with complying with the law. Criminals tend to not comply with the law.
If you would like to help disabuse this franchisee of his misconceptions regarding law-abiding citizens, you can contact him at Woodbridge@hardtimes.com
They play country music, but they can’t tolerate firearms. I guess they listen to the Dixie Chicks. Too bad.
UPDATE: The franchisee has clarified his position according to citizenofmanassas, who reports you’re OK if you’re in the restaurant part of the establishment and are carrying legally. This at least solves any problems I might experience if I were to eat lunch there with my family.
UPDATE #2; Philip Van Cleave of the Vigrinia Citizens Defense League adds the following, from the VA-ALERT:
On a very positive note, Mr. Barnette states that he would like to help us get rid of the restaurant concealed carry ban, as he would rather gun owners carry concealed. With concealed carry, he said, the whole issue with carrying in his establishment would basically dry up and blow away. On this we see eye to eye and we would welcome Mr. Barnette’s help next year lobbying with us to get rid of that crazy ban. VCDL has always argued that it should be up to the restaurant owner, and NOT the government, whether or not concealed guns are allowed.
I’m glad to see this starting to turn into a positive. Here is a good example of a business owner who feels that the restaurant ban is counterproductive and actually makes us less safe.
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I am surprised at your take on this. As the wife of a former small business owner, I can appreciate his stance, as it is probably more informed by issues of personal liability. Small business owners are sued all the time over the most trivial stuff. If anything happens on the premises involving the gun, the business would be sued right along with the gun owner. Guess which party an attorney would see as having deeper pockets?
Unless the manager has told you otherwise, this is a more likely rationale than an issue of personal freedom. Perhaps you can draft a universal release of liability for the business owner to have each gun owner sign before being permitted in the establishment with a firearm. Of course, a decent attorney would punch holes in it in court…
Not everything is about individual rights, not when attorneys stand ready to exploit anyone who allows them to be asserted.
Greg, I believe in the right for law abiding citizens to own firearms. I also believe strongly in the right of private property owners to limit others from bringing firearms onto their property.
It might be your right to carry a firearm on your hip but it is their right to say no to bringing that firearm into their establishment. I personally have been in a number of circumstances over the years in which people worn have holstered firearms into bars (not law officers). On two occassions undercover police officers arrested the individuals in question for drinking alcohol. One of those occasions I thought that I was going to be in the middle of a gun battle. I am really not crazy about people carrying guns around like this. It is not like we live in Baghdad and the chances of needing your gun in the Hardtimes is not very high (you are more likely to give yourself heart disease eating their food in my experience).
I respect your right to own your gun. I respect your right to carry it in a law abiding fashion. Please respect their right to refuse you service if you want to wear your gun on your hip.
It all comes down to personal responsibility. The main thing about getting a CWP is that you always want to keep it!! That is why only responsible citizens get them… In my opinion. Crooks don’t like going down to the police station (to be finger printed), or in front of the judge..
Hey, any chance of getting a post/link over to my Carnival of Cordite, I just finished an hour ago… It has a lot of great posts/submissions from some of the best gun bloggers nationwide.
http://www.spankthatdonkey.com/spankthatdonkey2/2006/7/8/carnival-of-cordite-64.html
when browsing us Microsquish IE for the audio clips (my favorite part) Thanks
At the risk of having my home computer address cut off from access, I am dubious about this. After all, isn’t the same logic that says that a business owner should be allowed to permit smoking (Hard Times is also cigar friendly, for which I am thankful) suggest that he should be allowed to bar firearms? I agree that it is an ill-advised course, but I think that the same rights that protect business-owners’ ability to govern smoking practices in his establishment demand, as a matter of consistency, that they be permitted to set a weapons policy.
I wonder if the same rule applies to on-duty cops who take their lunch or dinner breaks at Hard Times?
Lots of good commentary on this, and I thank you all for contributing to the discussion.
Certainly it’s within the rights of a business owner to restrict firearms posession on their property, but I still think it’s a dumb decision. Wachovia Bank does this, and guess who is the most targeted bank in the area by bank robbers? Criminals know it’s an easy mark, because the good guys are defenseless there. To my knowledge, not a single CWP had been revoked in Virginia because a gun owner violated a gun law. These really are the good guys.
I’ve heard the “why do you need a gun at Hard Times” type of question before, and the answer is simple. I probably do not, and certainly hope I don’t. But when I go to Potomac Mills with my family, I carry because there’s that slightest chance I might. And when I’m done shopping there, I might want to have lunch at Hard Times because I really like the food. I can either leave my firearm in my car, which puts it out of my control and risks promoting a car thief to an armed theif, or I can carry it with me because it’s more responsible to keep it under my control than leave it in an unattended vehicle.
But unfortunately you don’t ever know where and when you might need to defend yourself, and I have rarely been able to predict those few occurrances when the need arose. I don’t go out drinking at bars at night or visit places that are generally unsafe. Despite that, there have been several incidents over the past few years where I have been somewhere where a situation could have devolved into one where it may have been necessary to protect myself or other innocent people. Thus far I have not had the need to unholster a firearm.
So when I go to Woodbridge to shop, now I can’t eat at one of my favorite restaurants. It’s unfortunate.
As far as liability questions are concerned, I am unaware of any underwriting issues in regards to allowing or prohibiting firearms. Plenty of places I know welcome firearms owners, and a very small minority do not. There’s no demonstrable problem from carrying, and to the extent that there may be additional risk, it is offset by the liability question of what would happen if someone were killed during the commission of a crime where that person might otherwise have had the ability to defend themselves.
Lastly, I’m not making any changes regarding blocked IP addresses for now. We’ll see how it goes.
Greg,
The owner of this hardtimes has clairfied his stance on open carry, and as long as you stay in the resturant part he allows open carry.
That’s great news, and solves every issue I have.
Greg,
Yes it does. This issue is discussed at the following website, and the owner has a couple of posts. He is a gun owner and NRA member and supports open carry, just not around bars and pool tables where he feels that could lead to trouble. I was a part of a group of about 10 Ocer’s who met up last Friday night at the Ledo’s pizza in Fairfax, and we did not have any problems what so ever.
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/
Something to consider. The letters on the Potomac Festival sign have been partially burned out for over a year now. Drive by it at night heading east and you’ll see the sign for it near Circuit City reads “Pot Festival.”