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WHITEWASH
By Greg L | 23 March 2007 | Manassas City | 32 Comments
The Manassas City Police Department has conducted a thorough investigation regarding the actions taken by several officers on the evening of January 13th, 2007 in which they confronted a group of lawful and peaceable gun owners and instigated their removal from the establishment where they were eating their dinner. While concerns were raised regarding the content of some inter-departmental emails, the behavior of the officers was deemed to be appropriate and consistent with department guidelines.
From today’s Manassas Journal-Messenger:
Chief John J. Skinner presented the findings and his response to two formal complaints filed against the department to the Manassas City Council following a public facilities meeting Wednesday night. He also apologized for internal messages and e-mails in which several of the officers refer to the men as “ass clowns” and ” ‘tards.”
Skinner said there was no other evidence of police misconduct.
“As chief I feel I owe an apology … for the improper, profane and unprofessional language that was disrespectful at the very least,” Skinner said at the meeting.
What a bunch of utter BS. Is it departmental policy for the police to ask a business owner to eject patrons from their establishment who are not breaking any laws and posing no public safety threat whatsoever? Is this “whole ‘let’s get the owner to tell them to get the f**k out’ thing” official policy for the Manassas City Police Department? If these officers did not engage in police misconduct, then they must be following established policy for which Chief Skinner himself is responsible. So which is it, are a few officers responsible for violating policy and harassing law-abiding citizens, or has the Chief established rules which make harassment of law-abiding citizens an approved tool for law enforcement personnel to wield?
Part of the evidence of misconduct that Chief Skinner was apparently unable to unveil is right there in the FOIA response. Matching up the message traffic and 911 call transcript it’s pretty clear that the officers were informed while enroute to the establishment that these citizens were not breaking the law, yet they acted in a manner entirely inconsistent with this guidance during the entire episode. Here’s how one observer commented on this timeline:
At 8:13pm, someone transmitted “they technically can do that”. So apparently the officers knew or should have known that the members were breaking no laws by carrying openly before they ever arrived on scene.
The first officer arrived at the scene at 8:16pm and all officers were reported as “available” by 8:25pm.
At 8:31pm someone identified the exact section of the Code of Virginia pertaining to this issue: “18.2-308 for carry conceal & where.” So, not only did they know BEFORE the incident that there were no laws being broken, shortly after the incident, they knew the exact section of code that the members were…um…not violating.
At 8:44pm this gem was offered:
“thanks for the help with those tards. I was at a loss for words when they wanted to start debating the code.”
It is unclear whether he was at a loss for words because the members knew the code better than he did, or because of the fact that MERE CITIZENS had the AUDACITY to challenge the authority of “the only ones“. Probably the latter.
Then, at 8:46pm, the classic response:
“Dude, those guys are f’ing retards, you said it…bobby ovaile’s!”
I have no idea who Bobby Ovaile is but the respect with which Manassas’ finest regards their fellow citizens was obvious and enlightening. I wonder if Bobby Ovaile’s family knows that their local Police Department uses him as exemplary of your typical Manassas “f’ing retard”.
The content of the remaining messages were redacted. I can’t imagine why.
Is it departmental policy to pretend ignorance of applicable Virginia State Code when dealing with citizens who actually understand that code? Is Officer Hittle’s behavior then just an example of the proper employment of the department’s official policy? I can’t imagine how any law enforcement professional can investigate a case where officers are informed that citizens are behaving in a manner entirely consistent with the law, yet still find it within their authority to request that they engage in unlawful activity, such as the request for the citizens to conceal their firearms within an establishment that serves alcohol. If a thorough investigation was actually conducted here, the inescapable conclusion is that if the misconduct wasn’t on the part of the officers who harassed law-abiding citizens that evening, it must be on the part of the department’s leadership that crafted and enforced departmental policy guidelines that encourage citizen harassment.
I doubt this is over. It shouldn’t be.
The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.
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http://sailorcurt.blogspot.com/2007/02/answer-assclowns.html
It’s odd when you use the exact same words that someone else used over a month ago. Is there a name for that? Deja vu or something?
I believe the term for that is “quotation”.
Is there a civil suit being filed? Unfortunately, that is often the only way to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. If this conduct by the police hits them in the pocketbook then they will think twice before pulling this sort of thing again. The Chief had an opportunity to make this right without lawyers getting involved. He blew it.
Any chance of the NRA getting these guys some lawyers?
GREG,
IT IS NOT OVER! I think that is obvious. If anything Chief Skinner has aroused some citizens who have been sitting back watching, waiting to see the right thing done.
We have big problems in this country and it appears the right approach to address these failures to respect our rights may start here at home (rather than Washington or Richmond). I hope the Manassas City Council is ready for the jobs at hand.
The “Help Save Manassas” organization, I expect will have far reaching effects. This type of infringement on our citizen’s rights is just another example of how big our problems are with the disrespect legal law-abiding Manassas citizens are receiving from our officials.
Soon we will have a chance to vote for some of the people who represent us, others who have been hired for positions are also going to feel the heat.
Chief Skinner works for the people! The people will not tolerate being abused and being told that it is right or legal.
Perhaps what I have to say makes no difference to anyone connected with MCPD as I am just another F’**KING ASSCLOWN ‘TARD.
Let’s get busy Manassas Citizens. See you April 3rd,7:30 pm, Manassas City Hall.
HELP SAVE MANASSAS
Bobby Ovaile is someone I went to high school with- he was what you could call a fascist pig. I won’t get into exactly who he is, but knowing him, let’s just say it’s no surprise someone would reference his name in connection with this incident.
I’m sure somewhere, somehow, this could be construed as a civil rights violation. I’d say the citizens should file a complaint against the officers with the Justice Dept. (but then again, we have an incompetent AG in Alberto Gonzales.)
VCDL is not going to be happy about this!
I know for a fact that their membership rose already as a result of this issue.
Phillip Van Cleave better get ready for another rush to join the organization by concerned citizens. And for the phone ringing off the hook with all the lawyers calling to see how this issue is coming along!
What BS. Would the pro illegal immigration Skinner take it so easy on his officers if they had harassed illegals? I don’t think so, he would have demanded they take cultural sensitivities classes and personally apologize to every one of them.
Yet, Skinner has no problems with how his officers treat law abiding gun owners.
I surely hope the City Council wakes up and realizes there is a clown running the Police department. The Police department is only as good as its leadership.
Greg,
I think gurdaloo was saying that you failed to include quotation marks, if you were quoting from that other blog with the same wording.
Bobby Ovaile is a Manassas City Police Officer who is also an NRA instructor or member. Anonymous, it is pretty easy for you to call someone a fascist pig when you aren’t even man enough to use your real name. Be a man and write your name, or are you afraid of Mr. Ovaile. He must have kicked your a$$ in high school. Also, since when do the officers not have the right to ensure that men carrying guns are not felons in possession of fire arms which would be a crime. I am in no way condoning the officers e-mails, but the owner of Tony’s was on the news and in his own words stated that while these men have the right to carry guns, they do not have the right to do it in his restaurant when it affects his customers. It appeared to me that he was completely against the men carrying the weapons in his restaurant. But I guess his remarks were a police conspiracy also. These men were fishing for an officer who wasn’t sure of the law in order to make a point and they did. They were not out just for a meal, they were looking for trouble. Chief Skinner is an honorable man and for you people to sit on here and make accusations about something you know nothing about is insane. I think these officers deserve the benefit of the doubt before you all convict them. It is a difficult enough job without having people out patroling for ways to make their lives and jobs harder. I know for a FACT that the intent was not to just eat dinner, but to have what happened happen.
You have no basis to assign a motive to these individuals, fellow anonymous poster. If the intent of these individuals was to try to find an officer to pick on, you’d think they might have the documentation on hand rather than have to go to their cars to retrieve it. If they were trying to provoke an incident, the first thing they would have done would be to file a lawsuit, which hasn’t happened. VCDL President Philip Van Cleave has advised his members to have that documentation as it’s unfortunately pretty common to have these incidents where officers don’t know the law pop up. When they do, the answer has always been to start a discussion, not find a way to beat up police departments.
No one is deliberately trying to make it harder on law enforcement officers, despite your baseless belief that honest citizens are somehow out to get you. Instead a few officers decided to play cowboy here and went way over the line. Unless the department is going to deal with this effectively, the perception will unavoidably be that some portion of the department are out of control and leadership isn’t interested in resolving the problem.
You shouldn’t have to resort to a lie to defend your position.
I am a fellow anonymous poster because I didn’t call anyone a facist pig. And if I did, I would be a man and leave my name. I do have a basis for my position that they were not there just to eat. However, I will keep that to myself for a while until everything hits the papers. But I assure you, I do have a basis for that position. What makes you think that I am a law enforcement officer, because I am not, just an interested party.
It sure sounded like you were, but I’ll take you at your word.
I know a lot of VCDL members, have been one, and I’ve never encountered anyone who wanted to provoke an incident, and never heard anyone express an intent to look for a lawsuit opportunity. So on the basis of my experience, this charge is terribly suspicious, if not outright ridiculous.
The citizens who faced this harassment didn’t file a lawsuit or threaten to do so. If you’re looking for these opportunities, you don’t not take advantage like this. Perhaps due to the way this has been handled there won’t be a choice now, but I am doubtful that this would happen.
And if these folks were intending to provoke a reaction, they were horrendously unprepared. No one had a camera, no one took pictures with their cell phone, and no one was ready to pop out with copies of the code. If you’re going to do something like this, you make sure you’re ready for it. These folks were prepared in no way for a confrontation with the police, and believe me, if that’s what they wanted to do they would have been smart enough to have the ability to capture as much evidence and footage of what happened as possible.
What really has gotten this in the public’s eye is the horrendous manner in which it was handled. The police find out enroute that there’s no law broken, and they go ahead and harass these folks, knowingly without reason. Then they do the whole ‘tard and assclown thing and look pathetically stupid. If anyone has raised the profile here, it’s the MCPD themselves who have handled this poorly from the beginning, and continues to fumble here.
I’ll be interested to see if this proof you speak of ever materializes.
Well as one of the Tony’s 7 it’s interesting to here this scuttlebutt on who my ‘mascot’ is.
Interested party, what is your basis for the position that we were there not just to eat?
interested party, Lets hear it? The story hit the Manassas paper today. Where are your facts?
Regarding the ‘rights’ of a cop to stop a gun carrier. Well you need to brush up on the law and civil rights, the DO NOT have the right to stop someone in Virginia who is open carrying a firearm and doing nothing else but minding their own business.
Don’t believe everything you hear on the news. The 7 diner’s were there for about an hour, Management never asked them to leave. MPD shows up ‘talks’ to the manager then suddenly he doesn’t want them there. Smells fishy to me.
PLEASE give us your facts that they were out looking for trouble, I am on the edge of my seat.
As I said before, I do not in anyway condone the things the officers said in their e-mails. But I do want you to ask yourself, have you ever siad anything about someone that if they found out you said it, would be very upset. Longwatch, if you are one of the Tony’s 7, then you know why I have the position I have. Maybe you should start questioning some of your members!!
Hey interested party,
I guess I should watch myself for driving the speed limit, since I don’t want to get seven of the officers that I pay with my taxes to pull me over. Or, maybe I am fishing for a lawsuit, hoping one of the responding officers does not know the traffic laws. I have open carried while dining out with my family. I do it because it is the law. I would prefer to cc while eating out, but until the law changes, I will obey it. I also know a number of other people that do the same, and neither I or they are law suit shopping. So come up with a new excuse for bad policing.
Why should I pay for officers who treat law abiding Citizens the way these officers did? As for Skinner, his head is so far up the A$$e$ of illegals, he can’t see or think of anything else. He should be ashamed of how he allows his officers to go after law abiding Citizens, yet does not want to hurt the feelings of those breaking the law(illegals).
From what I understand, the seven specifically picked to eat at Tony’s because it had been done there before without any issues. What do you have to say to that?
Not knowing who you are I’m afraid I don’t know why you have any position or what in fact it is.
Yes Longwatch if you were one of the 7, you know why IP has the position he has, right?
IP, what do you mean by ‘members’? Are you confused and think it was VCDL organized and you are talking about some rumor you heard from a VCDL ‘member’. Or are you talking about a member off Longwatch’s party of 7? Can you also please post your ‘facts’. LW says he was there, I have no reason to think he is lying. So post up your facts and lets see what he has to say.
CH in C-ville
“As for Skinner, his head is so far up the A$$e$ of illegals, he can’t see or think of anything else. He should be ashamed of how he allows his officers to go after law abiding Citizens, yet does not want to hurt the feelings of those breaking the law(illegals).”
Well said! Skinner has lost any respect he had from me for this issue alone. He is a coward that is afraid to shake things up by enforcing the laws. That said, I have had nothing but good experiences with the MP Police in the past 5 years. I have a few rowdy neighbors that cross the line from time to time and when I call they always come and do their jobs. I was even politely reminded to put a current city sticker on my car by an officer in traffic a few months back instead of being pulled over and ticketed. *knock on wood that it stays this way*
CRY ME A RIVER! R U compensating for something!
IP, still waiting…..
IP, are in tantrum mode because you got spanked for sending one of the emails?
your posts are clearly bait.
IP if he is a cop is an embarrassment to officers everywhere. At least attempt to address what other posters have asked you to.
I am not a cop and in no way affiliated with the Manassas City Police. Just an interested party who is sick of hearing people who have no clue about the situation, not including the persons who were involved, write and say things that are so over the top such as calling Officer Ovaile a facist pig. He wasn’t even at the scene of the “incident”. You all are so negative of the police, but if you ever need them you will be crying for them. I know because a police officer saved my son’s life. No one is perfect, including yourselves, myself or the police. They did not go out and hurt anyone, an officer made a mistake in the field and I am sure those responsible for the e-mails will be sufficently punished. I do not believe any of them need to be fired. Remember that the next time you make a mistake at work!
IP asserted: “I know for a FACT that the intent was not to just eat dinner, but to have what happened happen”
What are the facts, IP?
IP,
I have a number of police officers in my family, as a result, I have the utmost respect for law enforcement. However, that does mean I will give them a pass when some screw up.
I too have had issues with the MCPD. A now former officer screwed up a call to my street, that involved a number of neighbors. As a result, we are still having issues, because this officer did not do his job. He is no longer with the Department, and there was an internal investigation, which did find the officer was at fault. But all of that is not going to change the fact that he screwed up, and we are still paying for that.
You did not answer my questions, nor the questions of others. Seems to me, you just want to spew off at the mouth, without answering the questions your firt post produced.
Namely, I’m I lawsuit shopping because I open carry while dining out? How do you know the real agenda of the seven men? Come on and answer the questions.
Perhaps, COM, IP is the individual who called the police in the first place (complaining customer) that night. It would explain a lot.
My advice to Skinner if he is reading this and somehow I’m sure he is, is to start cracking down on illegals and leave the law abiding, tax paying, citizens alone. Do your job and make us proud.
AW,
You might just be right. The guy on the phone seemed to be a real card. Gee, I realize they are not breaking the law, I just don’t like it. He had a very clear Northeast accent. A typical liberal no doubt.
Yeah he was strange, I spent 5 years in the Marines and I never met a Marine who was as against people exercising their rights as that former Marine was.
IP, I am still waiting for this inside knowledge of yours. Funny thing you complain “Just an interested party who is sick of hearing people who have no clue about the situation”. Exactly where is your clue? You claim no affiliation with MPD, you are not one of the 7 diners, nor did one of the 7 diners tell you they went to Tony’s with mal intent. So speak up, mr. I have all the inside scoop and you all have no clue about the situation.
liar, liar pants on fire!!