Correcting The Record
By Greg L | 22 June 2007 | 51st HOD District | 30 Comments
While I was out of town there was this interesting post by James Young which blasted at what he considered some of the myths of the 51st convention process. Since James only showed up at the very end of the convention, I’m going to forgive him for some of the errors in his post, but it’s probably worth clearing up some of the mistakes lest folks get the wrong impression of what happened there.
Team Lucas, after more than a week of delay by Credentials Committee Chairman Michele McQuigg, was finally able to obtain the list of delegates who attended the convention and the summary sheets that were provided to the elections committee so they could cross-check the results. Within about 24 hours of them obtaining these records, they discovered an error. (see “The Math Error”) James complains that since this error wasn’t discovered until after the convention adjourned, the issue can’t be raised. Now how does one go about correcting an error that one isn’t allowed to discover, in order to satisfy such fanciful procedural concerns?
What James missed by showing up late is that the election committee result was never accepted by the convention delegates. At one point the convention chairman declares that the elections committee report was accepted, but no vote was actually ever taken. Before that vote could occur, motions were made to amend the report, to announce the results by precinct, to throw out the results of the Lake Ridge precinct, and to appeal a ruling of the chair, which was finally declared out of order. At no time in this convention were the results certified by the delegates. The chairman and parlimentarian lost track of this during their confusion about motions being raised, and while the minutes of the convention record that this happened, the video and audio record of the convention tell a different story.
James makes the claim that because an issue isn’t raised during the convention, that issue can never be raised in an appeal to that convention. I see two problems with his approach, which might make sense when we’re talking about the rules of evidence at a trial, but probably applies a lot less in a convention and convention appeals process. One, if we’re talking about appealing a decision that wasn’t properly made, even in a court of law I would imagine that procedural deficiencies can be corrected in an appeal even if those issues weren’t recognized during the initial proceeding. Second, if a party is prevented from obtaining evidence which would indicate that there was a error through no fault of their own, it would seem improper to deny them remedy at such time that they were able to discover the error. I’m treading into a lot of territory here that I am not nearly as familiar with as my lawyerly blogging colleague, but I would imagine that if the facts bore this out, and I believe they do, we’d probably be in agreement that asking for relief in this case would hardly be improper.
Once the wheels came off at the end of this convention, it’s hard to blame Pat O’Leary or anyone else there for losing track of what went on, making a few incorrect decisions, and stumbling a bit through the last hour and a half. No one was prepared for this, and as motions, amendments to those motions, withdrawn motions and reconsiderations flew by at dizzying speed I think everyone got confused at one point or another. I really think Pat and his team did the best they could under the circumstances, and I honestly doubt I would have done any better in the same situation. I’m not quite so charitable in regards to Michele McQuigg’s refusal to furnish records from the convention until she managed to speak with RPV attorneys, which somehow took about a week, as if a candidate at a convention should somehow not be allowed to see who attended and who was recorded as voting. I’m not very charitable towards whoever made the decision to disregard the guidance of RPV in regards to dealing with overvotes, either, but I am not aware of who that was.
Meanwhile, Tom Kopko seems to be taking a very long time to consider Julie Lucas’ appeal of the convention. Perhaps he is being very thorough. Perhaps he is trying to take as long as possible in order to make it more difficult, or even impossible for Julie Lucas to then appeal any decision he makes to the 11th Congressional District Committee. This issue lingers on now without resolution, which seems to serve the real interests of no one.
I will try to pull together the audio record I have of this convention and post it soon, so readers can spend a few hours enjoying the misery that I experienced that unfortunate Saturday. The video files I have are at high resolution and I don’t have a machine at my disposal with enough horsepower to manage and break into pieces files of this size which would be suitable for YouTube. Fortunately I have some record of what happened at this convention, and I imagine that record may be useful in determining what may have gone wrong and how to make it right. I’ll try to get as much of it posted as I can, in case it will be of help.
While the evidence I’ve seen shows that the outcome of this convention would have been different had the convention followed the guidance of RPV in regards to overvotes, no matter the outcome of the appeals process there needs to be an impartial as possible evaluation of what happened in order to provide a means of preventing such problems happening in the future. That is more important than the adjudicated outcome of this convention. Unless some means of restoring confidence in the party’s candidate selection process can be established, the taint from this will affect every nominee selected by convention now and in the future, and harm the ability of nominees to succeed in future general elections. Sweeping this under the rug now for short-term political gain is a disservice that harms the Republican party.
UPDATE: For anyone unsure about the “math error”, you can see the delegate check in sheet for the “Win-Z” portion of the alphabet here where there are 3 delegates listed for precinct 604. The summary sheet used by the elections committee is here, which shows only one delegate for that portion of the alphabet for precinct 604 was recorded. Because of this undercount of credentialed delegates, it appeared that there was an overvote in this precinct (Civic Center) when there actually was not. So far, no one has been willing to correct this error.
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And to think, this COULD have been resolved back in January IF Kopko had only listened to the Hon. Julie Lucas when she requested a primary.
Well Greg, why do you suppose no one has been willing to correct the error? It’s definitely an “OMG, where do we go NOW, I can’t believe this” sort of thing. The 51st District convention was an absolute travesty, a travesty for Julie, of course, but also for the Gill puppets — Corey Stewart, Michelle Mcquigg, Scott Lingamfalter, Bill Bolling, and even Ken Cuccinelli — AND the integrity of the entire PWC Republican party. I am just hoping that the higher levels of the party will be able to recognize and correct the situation.
Looks like Gill is assuming he won. He is now campaigning. However, this could be a career ending decision for Julie Lucas if she backs off. I could see the democrat winning the 51st and being there a long time.
She better try to get this seat now while the political landscape is still favorable.
The Democrats could take the House of Delegates back.
There are enough Republicans in trouble, enough open seats and enough hungry democrat, liberal activists that are out working Republicans to take back the House of Delegates this year.
You bet, anon….and this is not “last minute revelation”!! The Dems KNOW they can defeat Gill, particularly with the help of Republicans; the Republican leadership just simply isn’t that smart.
How in the world did we ever get to the point where Republicans, despite being warned, would knowingly give up a seat in the HOD by supporting a loser?? I didn’t believe it could ever happen….:( …guess it’s kinda like the immigration bill thing…:(
Anon, problem is that Julie is ALSO having to run her campaign for School Board lest THAT seat get lost. Right now she is probably doing the right thing in the way she is handling this.
MY recommendation is that at the next PWCGOP meeting all those who are DISGUSTED at the way the Convention was handled show up and “highly encourage” Mr. Kopko to follow the rules (I know…a first for him) and AT LEAST RETRACT PUBLICALLY the endorsement of Faisal as the “winner” seeing as how Julie has NOT conceeded the election.
I want Julie to win NOT JUST because she was the better candidate, more qualified, no skeletons in the closet, better politician, better track record, no ties to the AMC, harder worker or better person…I want to her win because she DID win at that Convention and the sooner Kopko admits to this and does the right thing, the better chance we will have in turning that seat into a Republican seat!!!
It’s unreasonable to ask Julie to quit running for her School Board seat and start running for the HOD seat, John. The fact is, regardless of the outcome, I doubt that you’ll see either Gill or Kopko “doing the right thing.” If either of them even knew how to define that, we wouldn’t be in this situation in the first place.
Julie is doing an incredibly noble thing with this appeal…she is putting herself on the line for the sake of the Party. I have no doubt that her purpose here is reform…to make sure that, whatever the form of nomination in the future, the process can no longer be corrupted. That’s quite a lot to accomplish right there and, WHEN she succeeds I expect her to be able to run for HOD, State Senate, Supervisor…any office for which she would care to stand. I say “when” because, despite my disillusionment with the Republican Party for the past few years, I cannot believe that there are not still many good people…who stayed good people…left in the Party hierarchy.
AW: I fully agree and would not support her giving up that seat. She is doing everything right (has done and is doing) and we all should be proud of her accomplishments. Before she knows it, she WILL be in Richmond, or D.C. for all we know, doing the Right thing for the Commonwealth.
I keep telling myself that it is NOT the Party that let me down, it is individuals. AND, just because someone has an (R) beside their name DOES NOT mean that they are right…and those forementioned are definitely NOT right nor do they hold up to the standards set forth by President Reagan.
The Washington Post had an article today on the Safa Group investigation, complete with a mention of Alamoudi. Do you think they’ll let up on Gill as this gets closer?
There is little chance that Gill’s campaign will get any traction. How many of the Republican activists in the County, other than the Chapman/Kopko clan (and, of course, Kopko will expect to be paid I imagine) will be willing to do any of that door-to-door to get him elected? He can’t very well send out only those people who supported him at the convention…many didn’t even speak English and, if the appeal finally starts going up the line and what happened at the convention looks as bad as many expect it will, even that number might dwindle. Money alone will not win this for him. His only chance will be if the Democrat (Nichols) is not serious enough about winning to do what needs to be done on the ground. Michele can’t go out and perform her magic for him in the 51st because she’s going to have enough on her hands with her County-wide campaign, and I know from experience that she won’t take five minutes from her own campaign schedule to help out another Republican…even a friend.
Bottom line LI…it probably will not matter. Gill doesn’t have a chance.
Nichols will run a campaign. It’s a Dem targeted race. The Dem Caucus/Warner PAC staff will send in all the staff they need to put together a ground game. To hold this seat will take a top to bottom organizational effort even better than Jeff Frederick’s or McQuigg’s back in her better days.
It’s amazing that the PWCGOP will have to go into a mode of “saving” a seat that shouldn’t have even been put in play in the first place. Colgan is safe too for that very reason. I can’t believe we’re not getting more reaction out of Richmond, as Kopko and company are singlehandedly (and oh so effectively) endangering our legislative majorities.
The far right has taken over the Party in PWC and DC. Their interests are self promoting globalization while they get richer and the rest of the world gets poorer.
Gill is a fraud, but he is protected….for now. Buying in to the Republican Ideologist (KOPKO / STEWART) is TOXIC. Pragmatic Republican’s need to wake up and vote out the cancer that has manifested itself within our Party.
KOPKO, GILL, STEWART, BOLLING, CUCINELLI, GONZALEZ, McQUIGG, ALL MUST GO. These people need to be removed from office immediately for our own safety. This is a religious war and all American’s need to get their heads out of the sand and focus on SURVIVAL for our families.
We’re all on this blog because we GET IT. There are no rules with the (R) Ideologues, their no different than the Muslim’s who are infiltrating our country to enforce Sharia Law. Blink..and it will be over and they will win and we’ll have the Republican Ideologues to thank.
Pragmatic Republican’s need to stop the Republican Ideologues NOW before they destroy our Party, Nation, PWC and DC! GILL is a fraud, he bought off STEWART, KOPKO, BOLLING, CUCHINELLI & McQUIGG with a lot of oriental rugs.
Forget the “pledge,” it’s meaning less. Kopko was willing to do whatever he had to do to block LUCAS & BEAUCHAMP to get McQuigg into the Clerks Office and GILL into the HOUSE. STOP KOPKO & STEWART NOW. STEWART tried to remove Caddigan, Nohe, Hill, Lucas, Beauchamp, and Johns.
Republican’s need to vote out the Ideologues.
VOTE FOR PANDAK (All Democrats and Independents are safe)
VOTE FOR CADDIGAN
VOTE FOR NOHE
VOTE FOR COVINGTON
VOTE FOR ROYSE
VOTE FOR FREDERICK
VOTE FOR MILLER
VOTE FOR BEAUCHAMP
VOTE FOR LUCAS
VOTE FOR ARNAIZ
VOTE FOR GRAY
IF IN DOUBT, VOTE EM OUT!
STEWART
GILL / KOPKO
McQUIGG
FITZSIMMONDS
LINGAMFELTER
UNDECIDED
Jay Obrien
PUPPETS
MAY
McQUIGG
Kopko is going to “make it right”…eventually, maybe…:
“Update on the 51st House of Delegates Convention Appeal
As most know, an appeal regarding the 51st House convention was submitted by Julie Lucas on June 11 to the 51st Legislative District Committee. The appeal seeks correction of a mathematical error in the credentials report regarding the Civic Center precinct and for all votes in two precincts, Lake Ridge and Penn, to be completely thrown out because of apparent over-votes.
As the Chairman of the 51st Legislative District Committee, and its sole member, the appeal currently rests with me. I would like to update everyone on my progress.
General. Given that the nature of the appeal is to overturn the nomination, it requires the utmost in care, thoroughness, and consideration. Frankly, that will, and should, take some time but I am working as quickly as possible. Until I complete the plan of action below I will not have made a decision on the appeal.
Plan of Action. My plan is to review all of the surrounding evidence in the hope of identifying reasons why over-votes may have been recorded. Then I will work with the Credentials and Elections Chairmen to narrow or even pinpoint the source of the over-votes. As I stated in the Potomac News recently, there are many, many human errors that are possible as well as possible intentional errors. This is done with respect to Robert’s Rules (RONR 10th Ed.) regarding how to count ballots.
Status. I have asked for and received signed copies of the convention minutes and rules. I have reviewed copies of the credentials materials and ballots. But, while I have received favorable responses from both I am still awaiting reports from the RPV observer and the 11th Congressional District Chairman who acted as an observer.
Thank you for patience in this weighty matter.
Tom Kopko” DATED JUNE 22, 2007
Ooooooopssss DATED JUNE 23, 2007…. MY ERROR.
I thought I had heard or read somewhere that RPV had given Kopko only 48 hours from the time he received the appeal to review it and pass it on to the 11th CD Committee. Is RPV monitoring this process, or not?
Not all ideologues are for Gill. I would argue it is pragmatic pols that decided to endorse Gill.
A true ideologue would look at the sharia law situation and not support Gill. Ideologues cannot usually be bought off.
“Julie is doing an incredibly noble thing with this appeal…she is putting herself on the line for the sake of the Party.”
Yeah. Personal ambition has nothing to do with it.
You go with that.
“It’s amazing that the PWCGOP will have to go into a mode of “saving” a seat that shouldn’t have even been put in play in the first place.”
What is amazing is that anyone could consider this a safe GOP seat absent a Republican incumbent. It was held for years by a Democrat (David Brickley). It is only marginally less favorably drawn for a Democrat now.
Thank you for reinforcing by earlier point Jimmy…as I said, Gill doesn’t stand a chance.
Typo: “my” earlier point.
I guess the “lower expectations” game is on now. I can promise you I have firsthand knowledge that the Dems were not even going to mess with targeting this seat until Gill was the nominee…..That’s a fact.
So…..Kopko/Young wanted it so badly….now go try and save a seat. Hint: It takes a lot of hard work. Let’s see you all go out there and sweat.
Where is the link to the safa group article in the post?
“”"What is amazing is that anyone could consider this a safe GOP seat absent a Republican incumbent.”"”
What is amazing is that anyone would think that this seat would have been in play anyway, absent any Dem incumbents in any office in the 51st district.
“”"What is amazing is that anyone could consider this a safe GOP seat absent a Republican incumbent.”"”
The incumbent in the seat is McQuigg, and she is a Republican.
Expect to see Jim Young sit back and do absolutely NOTHING as far as support for Gill outside writing on the blogs. He donated ZERO money to the campaign (at least according to vpap.org) and, judging by his girth ZERO walking and door knocking. He has a history of throwing his friends and former friends under the proverbial bus, expect him to do the same with Gill as it appears he already has “What is amazing is that anyone could consider this a safe GOP seat absent a Republican incumbent. It was held for years by a Democrat (David Brickley).”
Jim, I see once again you are attacking Julie. So, with you NOT EVEN LIVING in her district, with all the posts you do on her and all the time you must spend thinking of the words to write, not to mention hours during the day when you should be at work or in the evening when you should be paying attention to your family, all I have to ask is, “Do you spend as much time thinking of your wife as you do of Julie???”
Granted, I don’t live in the district either, but I came out in her support because there was no way I was going to sit back and let Gill and his terrorist money go to Richmond
Tell me, Jim, do you think for a MOMENT that personal ambition had NOTHING to do with ANY of our current and past President’s decisions??? If they lacked ambition, they should NOT have run for the job. It would be a fool to say that they ONLY did it out of public service.
It is personal ambition, Jim, that made this country great. Striving to do better and to make life better has caused this nation to be the best in the world. Personal ambition has caused people to strive to do harder in school, thus making it to the graduate level as well as Doctorate. ANYONE can get a degree and then sit back on their laurals, but it is personal ambition to strive to do better and advance in the corporate world, thus making life better for self and family. A byproduct of this is the positive results that are produced and thus benefit the company, or general public.
That being said, as far as Tom Kopko is concerned, I would think that he is in full gear now, much like OJ Simpson is in trying to find out who the murderer is, in getting to the bottom of this quagmire which he so pathetically created.
John, I laughed at your comment attacking James, and about the time that he spends thinking about me and his time spent with his family, rather than other women.
I really don’t want him taking advice from you on that score. Not EVER.
Congratulations, JL: you managed to tick off my wife enough to post a comment. Thankfully, she resisted the urge to smash my laptop in a fit of rage at your asinine remark.
It is not surprising that a man who would utilize personal attacks in a political dispute would also confuse recognition of a motivation with an attack on that motivation. Of course I don’t “attack” ambition as a motivating factor. I made no comment upon it whatsoever, yet JL attempts to cast my comment as an attack.
But neither do I dismiss it in favor of another — “an incredibly noble thing” — in a pathetically sanctimonious effort to cast Lucas’ pursuit of her personal ambitions as something else entirely.
The only sanctimony I generally see on these blogs is offered by Jimmy Young. His “opinion” is the final word on all things and, if he doesn’t have a reasonable/rational argument in opposition, he generally indulges in personal attacks, often with a sprinkling of profanity and profane suggestion (I can’t believe he kisses his mother with that mouth). I should like to point, however, that Greg has really gotten that under control here (That delete/edit button really comes in handy, huh Greg?).
I should also like to note that no one attacked (nor should they) Mrs. Young when she came to Jimmy’s defence and I applaud the graciousness of the commenters on this blog. The only reason I mention it, Jimmy has had no such grace, having rather less than eloquently (or graciously) attacked my husband on several occasions when he commented upon some rather over-the-top comments Jimmy made about me (happened on several occasions over at Too Conservative). Perhaps Jimmy can learn something from this and I can allow my husband to read and comment on the blogs again.
Once again, the [redacted] offers her belittling attacks, while engaging in her unjustified sanctimony. And, of course, ignores personal attacks (”judging by his girth…”), so long as they are pointed in the “right” direction. Hardly surprising, though, since she has, herself, belittled her own step-son in an effort to attack others. One has little reason to wonder why, in light of that, the relationship is as she has described it.
[Ed note: comment edited]
The only thing I said about my stepson, Jimmy, is that you sometimes remind me of him…so I can’t bring myself to call him James either. The fact that you look upon that as “belittling” is rather telling.