Help Save Manassas Thursday
By Greg L | 24 July 2007 | Illegal Aliens, Manassas City, Prince William County | 177 Comments
The next meeting of Help Save Manassas will be at Manassas City Hall on Thursday, July 26th at 7:30. Vice President Dan Arnold will be holding the reins while I’m out of town, and the meeting will feature Gainesville Supervisor John Stirrup. It should be an interesting meeting, and I wish I was able to attend.
We’re expecting a large crowd, which will probably be the last at this location. Manassas City Hall only holds about 100 people, and we’ve signed up over 200 members this month in addition to pretty much packing the room at every meeting already. There will be provisions to handle any overflow crowd that develops, so don’t stay away just because you’re concerned that you might not get a seat in the council chambers. We should be able to accommodate everyone that wants to attend in some fashion.
By sheer coincidence, I’m certain, Mexicanos Sin Fronteras will be holding a meeting nearby on the same evening, and if they decide to march over for a protest or something, having plenty of folks on-hand might not be a bad thing. There’s about zero chance of trouble, but it’s still nice to be able to hold our own when this happens.
The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.
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I think if as many people who feel offended by the idea that there are people willing to travel great distances and sacrifice everything they have at an opportunity to live in this great country and to work sometimes atleast 3 different jobs to help support their families, then let them feel proud of that belief.
Proud of giving up on improving their own country; proud of committing a crime by coming here “undocumented” and lying to live and work here; proud of stealing jobs, services and healthcare from US citizens. Perhaps pride goeth before a fall?
You know that’s the saddest thing out of all of this that these people don’t have the balls to stand up to corruption in their own countries and make them a better place. When you live in a country where 1% of the people hold 99% of the wealth and you don’t have the courage to force change then imo you deserve the squalor that you get. I neither respect nor condone what they have done to get to America and can’t see a justification for milking Americans dry because they are too lily-livered to overthrow the corrupt piss ants that run their own government. The entire thing is shameful.
Park’d,
I totally agree with you, as you also stated this on a prior thread. EXCELLENT POINT!
Park’d,
Well said.
There are over 46 Millions American Citizens with no Medical, and Millions of American Children living in Poverty without a chance at the American Dream. There are over 35 million American going Hungry and Millions of elderly choosing between medicine and food. Our Veterans and injured Solders returning from Iraq are without decent medical care, While 12 Millions or more Illegal Aliens get full Medical care, Free Education and Welfare Paid for by American Taxpayers! Our intercity Blacks and high school drop outs have a 30 percent unemployed rate while Illegal Aliens drive the unskilled pay rate down until it is impossible to live without living like roaches 20 to a room.
Illegal Aliens are killing more Americans every year than the Terrorist have killed in the last 10 years combined while Raping, Robbing and Assaulting 10,s of thousands of American Citizens and we are suppose to feel sorry for them. An Uneducated, Educating Hating, Welfare Loving, Criminally inclined Aliens that have a school drop out rate over 50 percent and that breed like Rabbits on Viagra to Populate the Gangs and Welfare rolls! With over 50,000 Illegal Aliens gang Members in LA County alone. They come here illegally, protest and demand their rights instead of Protesting and demanding their Rights in their own Countries. Apparently their rights include the right to turn this country into a Lawless Cesspool of Crime, Corruption, Drugs, Poverty, Cruelty, and Misery like they have built in Mexico and Latin American, just as long as it results in either Money or Votes for our Politicians!
Insecure Borders: Let’s Give Blame Where Blame Is Due
By Peter Gadiel
For five years, members of 9/11 Families for a Secure America have lobbied in Washington and in many state capitols for immigration law enforcement and secure borders. The opponents of our goals are many throughout Congress and elsewhere, but during this period the most powerful of them has been that individual with the sole authority to require the federal government to enforce these laws and who, by his refusal to do so, has made that government a co-conspirator in undermining the security of this Nation. That person is of course, George Bush.
As chief of the Executive Branch he has under the Constitution not only the sole power but the duty to enforce the laws of our country, a duty he refuses to honor. He thumbs his nose at the obligations imposed on him by the Constitution, which, in the name of the God he claims to worship, he has sworn to uphold. Since the people of the United States have no recourse through the court system to make him enforce the law, he alone has the power to decide that illegal aliens will be permitted to prey on Americans, and he has made that decision.
The harm that George Bush has done to this country is seen by many but felt most severely by those who have been the victims of crimes committed by illegal alien criminals, many of whom, after all, are in the United States due to Bush’s refusal to enforce federal laws already on the books.
The president’s efforts to undermine the collective security of the Nation and the individual security of citizens have caused many to ask: “Why does Bush allow illegal aliens, every one a law breaker, to enter the United States freely? Why does he refuse to enforce existing law and to allow terrorists, violent felons and drug smugglers full access to their intended American victims? Why does he continuously ignore the Constitution and the oath he swore to uphold it? Why doesn’t he care about Americans suffering as a result of depressed wages and working conditions, or about the Americans who have been the victims of crimes committed by illegal aliens?”
I have been meeting such victims and families for almost six years. As time passes I’ve grown more disturbed by what the Bush malfeasance indicates about his character. In part this is so because I meet ever more victims and see the list of victims grow longer. But there is another list that is also growing and this too affects my view of the man: the number of elected officials I have spoken with who, because of their positions in the government, have had one-on-one conversations with the president and who insist he is fully aware of the crimes inflicted by his illegal alien friends. There was a time when I gave Mr. Bush the benefit of the doubt; I believed he was insulated from the facts…that he didn’t know what was happening in the states. But now I grasp the truth: He does know. He doesn’t care: What kind of man must this be?
But as to George Bush (and many other elected officials and bureaucrats) I have come to realize my original appraisal was wrong. His actions since 9/11 have, for me, established that he lacks concern for the lives of individual Americans. Three thousand people died on 9/11, but since that day far more than three thousand have been killed, individually or in small groups, by illegal aliens. And still he refuses to enforce the laws that would end the killing. Thousands of Americans have been killed in intentional murders, or as ‘by-products’ of robberies, rapes, beatings or auto accidents caused by drunken illegals driving automobiles. Thousands more lives have not been ended but have nevertheless been shattered by acts of violence short of murder, such as child molestation. (The Bush Administration makes a proper accounting of these crimes impossible by virtue of its refusal to require local police to inquire into the illegal status of those arrested.)
That George Bush’s refusal to enforce the laws of this Nation has been the direct cause of these Americans’ death and suffering is simply beyond dispute. He and the Tony Snows and Michael Chertoffs he hires can protest all they want about the “impossibility” of securing our borders. He and they can pretend to be merely incompetent for only so long before Americans wake up and realize they’re not just incompetent, they are misrepresenting the truth.
To the many who wonder why Bush is doing what he’s doing, I offer some advice. For a long time I wondered too. Finally, I realized the futility of spending another moment on this imponderable. The reason why doesn’t matter. The fact that it is so is all that matters. But for those who need to have an answer as to the ‘why’ of the Bush actions I suggest you look at the motives of others who have betrayed our country: ideology, revenge, greed.
One or more of these pretexts must be what Bush employs in his own mind to justify his tolerance of violence and death. In that sense he is undoubtedly conventional, typical of his breed. But in one respect Mr. Bush has carved out a place that is unique among corrupt politicians. In his obsession to pass his amnesty, a major tool in the permanent elimination of our borders, he offered what amounted to a bribe, in public, to members of the US Senate, telling them that if they would vote for his amnesty bill he would provide 4.5 billion dollars to build the border fence that a 2005 federal law he signed required to be built. In those two years Mr. Bush has managed to get only a few miles of that fence built, but suddenly he saw that enforcement of this federal law could be used as a payoff to be offered to Senators to vote for his amnesty. Presto, he promises to come up with four and a half billion to build it.
Of course Mr. Bush is far from the first politician to engage in illegal or immoral behavior. But it is customary for politicians to try and keep their corruption a secret. For example, Boss Tweed of New York; Sen. Tom Dodd (father of the current Sen. Dodd) of Connecticut, Ted Kennedy. These bribe takers, philanderers, drunk drivers and lady killers at least tried to keep their crimes hidden from the public. As reprehensible as they were or are, they at least comprehended that their actions deviated from the norm and felt sufficient concern for public opinion that they didn’t want their crimes exposed. Mr. Bush appears to be unique in this regard, for either he lacks awareness that his behavior is wrong, or his contempt for the people of the United States is so absolute that he is doesn’t care that we see him offering bribes.
Naturally, when corrupt politicians are discussed Bill and Hillary Clinton cannot be ignored: Whitewater; cattle futures; Travelgate; Vince Foster; pardons for Susan McDougal, Puerto Rican terrorists, and Marc Rich; questioning the meaning of the word “is.” We also cannot forget that for eight years prior to September 11, while Moslem terrorists escalated their attacks against the United States these co-Presidents successfully schemed to avoid dealing with terrorism by sweeping it under the rug for their successor. These are the two who paved the way for September 11 by their refusal to respond with sufficient force to the numerous terrorist acts that occurred during their presidency: the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center, the embassy bombings, the Mogadishu atrocities, the bombing of the USS Cole, etc. By their inaction they encouraged and permitted the growth of the power of binLadin. Ultimately, the greatest responsibility for September 11 lies not with Bush but with the Clintons.
Yet it is George Bush who has been in office for six years after the murders of 3000 on 9/11. It is he who has been president since then as crimes by illegals have killed thousands more. It is possible to excuse the inaction of the Clintons as opportunistic passing of the buck to their successor in the White House. But George Bush cannot claim that excuse. The resulting damage was obvious for all to see. He cannot claim ignorance. He cannot avoid his guilt. Yet, he marches on, completely dismissing the blood that is spilled and the pain that results from his refusal to act.
It is useless to speculate about “why” he permits these crimes. So to those who continue to wonder, my advice is: don’t waste another moment of thought on the matter. Use your energy to contact your members of Congress, your governor, state legislators. Then contact them again, and then again. Educate your friends and enlist them in the cause of immigration reform.
Elected officials do respond to pressure from constituents. You have power, but only if you use it by communicating repeatedly with them. The richly funded campaigns of LaRaza, Chamber of Commerce, Ford Foundation, bankers, lawyers, et al., to open our borders succeed precisely because they make themselves heard while others remain silent. Your silence in the face of their campaigns is as powerful an ally of the open borders lobby as the open borders lobbyists themselves. So, make yourselves heard. You have a voice. Use it.
Travel great distances? Hardly an excuse for crimes committed. If for example a guy travels from Liberia to rape his niece, that doesn’t give him justification or make it right.
Sacrifice everything? I thought they came here because they had so little.
Work 3 different jobs? That’s 3 less jobs for Americans.
We can’t have their way or life here and our social safety net continuing at the same time. It’s one or the other. We also can’t have my one-family-to-a-house property tax rate subsidizing people who live 3 families to a house (and play dumb for the zoning inspector, claiming to be related). I won’t have it. I don;t want to pay for them, and I won’t. Those who break the law need to be held accountable. They may be heros in your eyes, but they’re crooks in mine, who engage in human smuggling and pay off drug runners to come here and take jobs away from Americans by virtue of enabling crooked employers to pay less tax and medical benefits.
Rick Bentley-
Please come to the HSM meeting Thursday night.
BL,
Where did you find the piece you posted by Peter Gadiel?
Karen I have Google alerts set for Illegal Aliens & it was on one of the Alerts!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,290736,00.html
If anyone asks why we want to crack down on illegal aliens you need to look no further than the link above. God help us all.
Immigrants, illegal and legal alike, are helping out their countries of origin. Remittances sent home by family members are major sources of income and improvement for poor people and have transformed entire communities. They are actually far more efficient, direct, and equitable than the US foreign aid budget, which does not allocate on the basis of poverty as the identity of the #1 aid recipient would indicate. And immigrants, especially those who are illegal, do give up a lot, even if they were poor, because what one has to give up is not only material. But maybe all of you don’t feel there is anything but the material in life.
They work harder than most of us for less money and they do pay taxes. All pay sales tax and as many as 50 or more percent are having SS and other payroll taxes withheld by employers that they will never recover. They are part of what is keeping the SS system afloat. See, for example, the NYT story of 4/5/05 “Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions.” URL is too long to post, but if you put that headline in Google you will find it for free.
As for stealing jobs, that is ludicrous for the most part, especially in an affluent area like this one. Tell me you really believe that if tomorrow every illegal immigrant were to magically disappear from the DC Metro area that employers would fill every single slot they leave open, even if the wages were doubled. Tell me you believe that. Because employers all over the country who have tried to hire Americans for certain kinds of work have come up wanting. This is not even to mention the fact that most of you affiliate with a party that has worked forever to avoid raising the minimum wage (which is so far from a living wage it isn’t funny) and has done everything to avoid improving working conditions for the native-born working class. If their being illegal is a problem, then work to legalize them (with a penalty) if you prefer, to pay their alleged debt to this society, although I feel that with how hard they have worked, they have already paid it in full. Many have lived here for decades as law-abiding workers. This is not even to mention the fact that for the largest group among Latino immigrants in this region, Salvadorans, the United States was directly involved in making their society as violent and dysfunctional as possible. But then I don’t expect any of you to take a historical view on this issue. You don’t seem to on any aspect of immigration since you ignore the fact that immigrants in the Ellis Island era, while legal, were tarred with exactly the same sorts of criticism you launch and immigrants today are assimilating exactly the same way over time and through second generations. You deny the racist labels, but all over this blog and other forums, the language you use is either explicit or coded yet overt. You don’t want a lot of Spanish speaking immigrants around you period. You don’t want to read Spanish on signs or products or have to push #1 for English. Bizarrely I guess, none of this bothers me. I live next to illegal immigrants in my apartment building, I ride the bus everyday with them, and what I see in 99% of them are people working as hard as they can, living in groups because they have to, doing, in the main, jobs others don’t want, and keeping masses of people back home from abject poverty.
You ignorant person of the 1099 execption. You can contract your self out as a private contractor by the hour in the construction industry. NO fica taxes, No federal taxes, No state taxes, etc. With a bogus social security number as a 1099 worker you can get WIC for your pregnant wife, with which the department of social services is all to happy to help you with a spanish interpreter and forms in spanish. There are no checks on the system we have, except for the 90 woman who has to produce a birth certificate to get her medicade. Comon people, Don,t you remember when Reagan determined that ketchup was a vegatable? I see in the stores the immagrants recieving there WIC and I JUST WONDER, Why I am I supporting the constuction industry with my taxes? Answere me that.
BornHere- “As for stealing jobs, that is ludicrous for the most part”
Tell that to the American people that are losing their businesses because they do the right thing and hire legal workers. This is happening within the Manassas area. When you have unscrupulous employers that pay under the table, and you can’t tell me that the majority of illegal’s receive a regular pay check, they can NOT compete. They are constantly under cut because they have “cheap” labor. And I am tired of hearing they are all hard workers. Just like everyone else there are some who work hard and others who don’t!
You people that advocate for illegal’s make me sick.
We have plenty of poor Americans that need the attention that these illegal’s are getting. Why do you all insist that we should allow law breakers into our country? Why don’t you go to their countries and help them organize there, to create a better life there, not here.
WARNING AGAIN - “Help Save whatever town” brings nothing but divisiveness and uncivil confrontations. I live in Herndon, and I KNOW !!!
Had to Say, I don’t recall saying anywhere that “we should allow law breakers into our country.” Fact is, they are already here. If you honestly think that 12 million or more people are going to be deported, you are naive. Many do pay into the system, I guess you didn’t bother to read the article, and I never said they all work hard, that has just been my experience with the ones I see everyday. I think America has been strengthened by immigrants throughout its history, legal and illegal, and the best thing to do, given that there will be no mass deportation no matter how much your movement wishes it, is to create some kind of path toward legalization, as I stated, with a penalty if that makes you feel better. As I said, they are already helping to create better lives in their home countries, through remittances, as are legal immigrants. There is no accusation on this board that hasn’t been used against legal immigrants as well in our nation’s history, from “stealing” jobs to not learning English fast enough. I am glad to hear that you think poor Americans should get the attention these “illegal’s” [sic] are getting. I assume then that you are in favor of a substantial rise in the minimum wage to make it an actual living wage, some kind of system of universal health insurance since we have millions of native born Americans who are uninsured, greater worker protections across the board, and subsidized child care so single native born American mothers have a chance to succeed. That’s wonderful.
If you look at our Great American History: we first hated the Chinese, the Polish, the Italians, the Greeks, the Jews, the Irish, the Spanish and now we get to hate the Mexicans, the Central Americans and South Americans. We are a equal hating country. The ones who came from Europe came over in big ships and came through Ellis Island. Not too easy to sneak through there…. However, there were those that did make it through undocumented since some belonged to their own mafia. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that this hasn’t happened before. If you want to really blame somone look no further than the employers eagerly highering these new immigrants at the lowest wage possible; exploiting them and turning them over to the authorities like nazis.
Anonymous (26 july at 1:08)
You’re a fool. Keep watching N.B.C. for your facts. Illegal immigrants portrayed as victims. The next item you should discuss is allowing the Mexican government to determine U.S. policy within our own borders.
I’ll bet you believe the Bush administration plotted the 9-11 attacks. What a liberal jerk-off.
OK, let’s keep the Nazis out of this. Let’s not even go there lest you lose your argument before it even begins. Americans dislike lawlessness. You libs can spin this however you want but it comes down to the fact that we have 20+ million lawbreakers in our midst, many of whom are hardened MS-13 criminals, that need to be dealt with. Yes of course there were illegals during the Ellis Island days, but certainly nowhere near the numbers or ratios per American citizen that we see today. America could stomach a few hundred thousand to a few million illegals if it had to, but 20+ million starts to change the American way of life, our culture, our neighborhoods, our standard of living, our infrastructure, etc, etc. Call us racists, call us bigots since it is the only thing you know how to do in a debate when you know that you can’t defend the base issue. We don’t care. We have the truth on our side. You don’t. Period. The end.
As far as “Help Save Whatever Town” being an organization that divides is concerned: maybe that’s what we need. People need to choose sides on this issue. There is no compromise here. You either reward lawlessness or you don’t. There is no middle ground. You either round them up, send them back to whatever country they came from and fine the living hell out of the business that hired them or you reward lawlessness and pi$$ all over our constitution, our national security and our way of life. The line is here | You are either on the left or the right of this line and there will be no compromise.
Ah Park’d, you are so modest. You have truth on your side, period. No ambiguity, no middle ground, no gray area.
I have a couple of questions.
1. Okay, you have decided the figure is 20+ million. Fine, whatever. It isn’t the government’s figure, there is no real way of knowing, but it’s a figure. You then say “many of whom are hardened MS-13 criminals….” Now the word “many” implies a substantial number, does it not. And you have begun with the figure of 20+ plus, so that would have to mean what? Five million of that number? 2 million? 3? Are you actually stating here with a straight face that MS-13 members *in the United States alone* amount to millions of people or even one million? Are you? Do you have even the tiniest bit of substantiation for that statement. I am not minimizing the violence and thuggishness of that particular gang/criminal organization in the least, but you are engaging in totally ridiculous hyperbole and reading you past posts, it isn’t the first time.
2. You give a stark alternative and obviously advocate one side when you speak of rounding up. Now going back to that 20+ plus number. Exactly how are you going to round them up? Even assuming a certain proportion would leave, once said rounding up started, to round up just half of that number, or a third, or even a fourth would take massive resources and logistics. Assuming even that 70 percent come from countries south of the United States, that still leaves 30 percent that would need to be sent across the two oceans on our borders. Exactly where would the money come from? Where would the personnel come from? Don’t say the military because, guess what? They are busy. Are you saying law enforcement will “round up” millions when ICE won’t even be handling more than a tiny little number of the folks that you all in PWC and LC try to turn in? Before you bring up Ike, the actual rounding up in that situation back in the 50s only amounted to a few hundred thousand at the most. I can give a historical citation if you would like. So please, explain something about the logistics, the funding etc. of rounding up. I realize (hope?) you are not a policy maker, but all of us ciitzens can at least speculate on such matters can we not? Can you even produce one practical hint of how this would happen? Has any nation in the world ever “rounded up” several million people in the way you suggest, or even come close? Oh wait….maybe you don’t want to go there.
3. You talk about lawlessness and pissing on the Constitution. I’m just curious. I assume you would like to avoid getting the Bill of Rights wet. Exactly how would you handle identifying those who are illegal from those who are not? Accent? Skin color? Would you think it was appropriate to have law enforcement or vigilante groups made up of fine Americans such as yourself stopping every person they suspect and demanding proof of legal status over and over and over again? Would you suggest some sort of always visible ID to indicate which ones that fit the general profile (eg. not native English speakers) have already been checked? Would you have any kind of check on such powers? Would you permit the criminal or civil prosecution of those who abused such roles and harassed the same legal residents over and over, or would those who are unlucky enough to be both legal but fit the profile you have in your head just be fated to be identifying themselves over and over all the time. I guess that is where the identifying badge worn outside on clothing might come in. Oops, perhaps you don’t want to go there.
So there it is. Substantiate, even in small way, your claims about many of 20 million plus people being MS-13, and please offer even a hint of practical aspects of the rounding up you so desire and how you would prevernt abuses of the very same document you profess (rather unconvincingly) to so admire.
Born here, pure and simple, its against the law and the American people are fed up.
You talk about the “remitances” that they send back to thier country. You are absolutely right. Thats one of the reasons why the pack 20 people to a townhouse. They could afford an aparment with one or two roomates if they werent sending half or more of the pay check out of the country.
Born Here,
check this out
http://immigrationcounters.com/
Fenian, wow….interesting name given the subject. You say it is against the law “pure and simple.” Yes, well lots of things are, things you likely do yourself. If it were for even one minute about some purist notion of what is or isn’t against the law, that would be one thing. But if you are honest, that isn’t what it is about or you would be as intent on searching out everything against the law that you or others do and quashing those people and actions in the same way. You also talk about remittances as though they are somehow illicit. First, perfectly legal immigrants do the same thing and also often also live in more crowded conditions than many native-born Americans would accept or tolerate. Remittances actually benefit the United States as well as the masses back home in the immigrants’, legal and illegal homelands, because improving conditions of poverty around the world is in our national interest.
Finally, you say “the American people are fed up.” How wonderfully modest of you to speak for the entire American people. I am American. Last time I checked the midwestern state of my birth and the state, Virginia, where I have lived for 30 years haven’t seceded and joined Canada, and I am not “fed up.” Many other Americans are not fed up either. Some don’t really obsess on this issue, others are actively sympathetic toward illegal immigrants or just don’t see a feasible solution. Even if such Americans are a smaller group than those “fed up,” I would imagine they amount to tens of millions of people at the minimum. You could have said people from Manassas are fed up , which would still be too blanket a statement, but at least might have an inkling of truth. But no. You said, in all your exalted modesty, you claimed “the American people.”
History has shown that when we actually enforce our own laws, the illegals move away on their own. When Eisenhower started the illegal sweep back in the 50’s several million of them went back to their own countries on their own. When you punish those who hire illegals to the point that they will not hire them anymore, the illegals go away on their own, no deportation necessary.
Let us not forget the fraudulent documents that these people have to get work. You honestly don’t think that is a victim less crime, do you? My BIL is a 20 year military veteran who had his identity stolen by illegal aliens, 17 of which were using his identity in one form or another. One bought a house with his info, refinanced and walked away with over $100,000 in cash. Almost 3 years later he is still fighting to clear his name and info and was nearly kicked out of the Air Force due to it. Everyone illegal that has these forged documents is a felon
So how do we find out who is legal for a job? The IMAGE program pilot by homeland security is a good start. When it comes online in full scale (now a pilot program) there will be no excuse for employers claiming they got fooled by fake documents.
Many illegals are here working as indentured servants, paying off debts to the people who brought them here by working for slave wages far below minimum.
My mother was an immigrant, a legal immigrant. My mother in law was also a legal immigrant and had to learn English. Both took years to do so, but they both did it legally. They respected the laws of this country and did it the right way.
Good Time Char Lie: The only thing that NBC and other media netwoks care about is ratings and making money. There is always 2 sides to every story and you happen to only like the side you agree with. FOX network really spins a very ultra conservative view and calls it “fair and balanced” except it leans way too much to the right. The Hanity Insanity hour.
The only thing you can say is each time our beloved president George Dubya says: “bin laden hates us for our freedom”. bin laden sadly only said: “he doesn’t like our imposed policies in that region” (for many years before 9/11). Of course we ignored those statements and the rest is history….
Scott, actually several million did not leave during the sweep initiated by the Eisenhower Administration. Why? Because there were not “several” million here unless you really think that nearly 3 is several and that all of them left, which isn’t the case. For an interesting write up about the Eisenhower era program by someone who appears sympathetic to that tactic see this article from the Christian Science Monitor.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html
Congratulations on your mother and learning English “legally,” whatever that means. Your sentence was perhaps a tad convoluted, but I get the point. They were here legally and they learned English. Well many illegal immigrants are also learning English and their children definitely are. Everyday I hear a child respond back to his or her mother in English to a comment in Spanish or other languages. I also hear them using English among themselves playing. It is a matter of time. The language issue is a red herring. If anything, the vast majority of Americans are the ones who handicap themselves by fetishizing English to the point that they refuse to learn another language. In Europe, that would be a joke. In any case, it doesn’t bother me that countless and I mean countless immigrants of past generations never learned to speak English very well or sometimes at all beyond a few words although their children did, and that the same issue is repeating itself now.
First off, nowhere did I say, “millions of illegals are ms-13 gang members”. I said, “many of whom are hardened criminals”. “Many” is a relative term and in this instance obviously means thousands to tens of thousands. According to Newsweek, March 28, 2005, over 10,000 MS-13 gang members have illegally crossed our borders. This number is almost two years old. The illegal alien problem has geometrically increased since then according to many sources which you are already well aware of but will no doubt ask me to cite for you just to be coy. If you take the increasing ratio of illegals and edit your 10,000 ms-13 member estimation, then you can see we are looking at many tens of thousands of illegals who are ms-13 members. You may say, “that’s only 1/10th of 1%”. I, the MAJORITY of citizens, and the victims of these thugs say that 1/10th of 1% is still 1/10th of 1% more than should be here, especially considering the Northern Virginia area is a major hub of ms-13 activity. I’m sure some of their victims, namely Manassas citizen Wanda Angelos whose son CJ was murdered by one of them, would not share your opinion of what constitutes an insignificant number.
http://www.bvbl.net/index.php/2007/07/17/angelos-trial-coverage/
10-20 thousand ms-13 members is a TREMENDOUS number of criminals in our midst and you should be embarrassed as a law-abiding citizen for thinking otherwise. In fact, only a SINGLE ms-13 member who crosses the border illegally is one too many. Any law abiding citizen would agree with me.
Again with the Nazi implications. Only a true liberal ever goes there. Funny that you mention that the American outlook of a single national language would never be accepted in Europe and then you proceed to talk about European lifestyle. If you try to compare that Nazi analogy in Germany to something as dissimilar as an illegal alien invasion it would get you tossed in jail.
I have never offered any solution other than rounding them up and shipping them home, or giving them the option of military service to earn their citizenship. Many here would not trust their sons and daughters in a foxhole with an illegal lawbreaker. I, on the other hand, think that most of them are decent people and that if they are willing to risk their lives in defense of this great country to become a citizen that they would then make an honorable citizen and prove their devotion to the USA. Deadbeats milking the system I can’t and won’t tolerate.
Using some of the estimates that are in the trillions of dollars that illegals will cost American tax payers in the next decade, it becomes clear to me and anyone else that can do simple math that it would actually BE cheaper to evict all of them and then lock down the border if you consider it as a TCO action. This means basically that it may cost more up front to deport them, but in the long run would actually be much cheaper.
When the term “The American People” is used, it is used to reflect the majority of the American People. This ratio may be 51% to 49% or it may be 80% to 20% depending on which polls you choose to believe, but it is still used to reflect that the majority of The American People ARE against illegal immigration. But then you already know this because you are a clever person and can do your own simple research.
I also do not get paid 250K a year to come up with solutions. I am an American citizen who looks to my leaders to do that. They have failed us all miserably in this situation. I’ll tell you what though; you pay me 250K a year to come up with a solution to this problem and I GUARANTEE you that I will do a 100X better job of it than these sellouts that run our Federal, State, and Local Governments.
You are quite adept at obfuscating arguments and twisting them around to suit your needs. As I said before: The truth is on OUR side (”our” meaning the majority of The American People). We are right and you are wrong. We are law abiding citizens and you are…well you make up your own mind.
Any more issues you wish to debate with me?
Park’d, you have an interestingly loose approach to language. “Many” is indeed a relational term. And you had just specified a numerical population of 20 plus million and used the term “many” to refer back to it. If you are using “many” in relation to 20 million plus, you cannot possibly only mean thousands or tens of thousands because then you would render the term “many” meaningless as a measure of anything or as a communicative term.
To be crystal clear, I’ll take a simpler example. What if I said here are 100 students, many of whom speak fluent French. If it turned out that only two of the group spoke fluent French, then I would have been using the term “many” incorrectly. Yet, that is precisely what you did in the original language of your post in terms of proportions, well no, actually it was an even more ludicrous proportion given the numbers you came out with finally, in relation to the 20 million plus illegal immigrants.
In addition, what you put in quotes above saying that it is something you never said is not language that I used. I will assume you put it in quotes to set it off and not that you actually think you are quoting me. Actually, you don’t seem capable of accurately quoting even yourself, which is really remarkable. In your reply to me above you state that you said:
“First off, nowhere did I say, “millions of illegals are ms-13 gang members”. I said, “many of whom are hardened criminals”.
Yet, in the post I had replied to, this was your actual language:
“….we have 20+ million lawbreakers in our midst, many of whom are hardened MS-13 criminals, that need to be dealt with. ”
So in truth you did refer directly with the term “many” back to 20 million and slipped MS-13 in-between hardened and criminals, which is unlike what you claim you said. Who distorts their own language? Is your scroll bar broken?
My objection was not to your concern that the presence of “hardened MS-13 criminals” is a problem. My objection is the notion that you could describe them even in the remotest of terms as “many” among the population of illegal immigrants that you state is 20 million plus. And again, proportionality and usage demands that “many” in *direct* relation to a figure of 20 plus million can not be measured in the tens of thousands.
As for the Nazi thing, that was another poster. I only played a tiny bit on your exchange with him/her and never mentioned the Nazis by name. I do note, however, that you ignore the constitutional implications I brought up that would be involved in any “rounding up.” You also don’t appear to know much about the laws in Germany in regards to making historical comparisons and going to jail for them????, but that is irrelevant. I was only bemoaning the fact that most Europeans, at least most educated Europeans outside the UK, routinely speak more than one language and I think that is a good thing.
Also, just because you state that the phrase “the American people” do or think x or y always means a majority no matter how slight doesn’t mean that it is true. To place the words “the American people” in front of a statement “are fed up” is nothing but demagoguery. You could have said “a majority,” you could have said, “growing numbers of Americans” or “millions of Americans,” but as I have seen all over this forum, those of you in this movement like to claim some sort of overwhelming mandate that doesn’t exist. It doesn’t exist not because huge numbers of Americans are sympathetic to illegal immigrants, although obviously some are, but also because there are huge numbers for whom this issue isn’t a pressing concern so they could hardly be fed up. In any case, I think saying the American people ARE anything, other than American or similar, for example, is ludicrous in an amazingly diverse, pluralistic society of 301 million. I don’t agree it refers to the smallest of majorities. It certainly doesn’t in politics. We have this wonderful language. It costs nothing to use terms that don’t make you look as though you are ignoring millions of people who disagree with you.
Finally, I am glad you offer the option of military service since many would not even do that. But I still say that not only do we not have the resources for the “round up” you advise, or even a heavily reduced version of it, we would violate the Constitution that you claim to love if we began such an action against millions and millions of people and we would encourage the kind of vigilanteeism that has plagued other periods of US history. You haven’t said one thing about the inevitable constant harassment that would occur against people who are legally in this country, but who fit the profile of those who are not. So I ask again, how exactly would you find out who to round up and how exactly would you prevent a legal immigrant from being constantly harassed because he/she fit the profile?
PS to Park’d: I find it astonishing that you choose to imply more than once that unless one agrees with you, one is not law-abiding.
That is ludicrous, not to mention un-American. Although, perhaps it is both un-American and quite American since that kind of false binary is so common here. America, love it or leave it etc. In any case, I would imagine I am as law-abiding as you are. I would imagine also that you are not totally law abiding in its strictest sense, but perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps you are the rare paragon of virtue who has never once exceeded a posted speed limit, had a sip of an alcoholic drink before he was of age, bought an item online without filling out the form to pay Virginia tax, indulged in an intimate act or cohabitation that is against the laws of Virginia, etc. etc. etc. Or is it just some laws that one need abide?
Again with the obfuscation. As I said before, which you apparently missed; “many” is a relative term. In this case since we are talking about such drastic numbers of millions of illegals I think that we can all agree that 20+ thousand ms-13 members could be considered “many”. Am I not correct? If I had said, “The majority of which are ms-13 members” or “A great percentage of which are ms-13 members” then your analogy might stand but since I said, “Many of which are ms-13 members” then I think my statement stands. I only threw out an arbitrary term using the word “many” based on the sheer number of illegals that we are dealing with here. How you can sit here and say that using the term “many” is not an accurate representation of 20+ thousand illegal ms-13 members just shows everyone how out of touch with reality that you are and to what extent you will go to argue a baseless case. Why are we arguing semantics anyway when we all know that 20+ thousand ms-13 members is a tragedy for our communities? Who cares whether I slipped ms-13 in before or after anywhere in my quoted sentence? It is assumed since we are talking about ms-13 in the first place that it is them to which I was referring. If you add in your daily run of the mill murderers, rapists, burglars, robbers and any other type of illegal alien criminal that isn’t a member of ms-13, then this 20+ thousand number would probably jump to well over 100,000 and just bolster my case that much more. You might think that wordsmithing is a clever use of your time and mine, but I tire of it very quickly.
I was born in Germany. My mother is a German citizen and grew up there, she speaks fluent German and we still have family there, some of which lived through the war. I assure you that if you try and make the case over there that Americans enforcing immigration laws is comparable to Hitlers extermination of the Jews, that you will raise your fair share of eyebrows and get yourself in an undesirable situation. They take allegations like that very seriously in Germany. Comparing the enforcement of existing US immigration laws and the invasion of the USA by illegal aliens to the Jewish extermination and passage of the Nuremberg Laws is just plain ludicrous. I think you also minimize just what the Jewish people went through if you were to even think that. We can pass no such ‘Nuremberg Laws’ with reference to the illegal aliens because they are not currently citizens, unlike the Jews in Germany who actually were. I have to assume that you think this comparison is accurate since you said, “I guess that is where the identifying badge worn outside on clothing might come in. Oops, perhaps you don’t want to go there.” Again, only a liberal would sink that low.
I also believe that Americans learning to speak a second or even a third language is a good thing and should be encouraged. I took four years of Spanish in high school and two years in college myself. I am by no means fluent, but I can certainly carry on a conversation if the tongues don’t hit warp speed
I do not believe however that Americans should be forced to learn a different language in their own country just to accommodate a group of people that shouldn’t be here in the first place. There are many government jobs now that an American citizen can’t even get unless they speak Spanish. Rolling up this carpet of accommodation is the first step in getting these people to learn English.
Your opinion of what constitutes “The American People” and mine are just different and we will leave it at that. As I already stated before, my definition of The American People means the majority. Since majority rules, it stands to reason that this would be an acceptable definition. It’s your choice as to whether or not you accept this or not. I think it is a waste of time for us to keep debating this point since it is moot anyway.
I do have some ideas on how to put everybody on an equal playing field and determine citizenship, but since I am not a politician and am not in a position to implement these ideas, it makes no sense for me to get into that. Suffice it to say, if some of these ideas were implemented (which I take no credit for since many of them have been around since back before our last amnesty and were never implemented) the majority of illegals would move on to other locales, or God willing back to their own home countries where they could take some of their newfound courage and institute change in their own corrupt countries. Now there’s an idea for you!
As far as your last post is concerned; again you just don’t get it. Let me lay this example out for you:
I am a speeder. I like to drive fast. I know I am breaking the law but you know I still do it. I like to drive 75 in a 55. It’s just me driving 75 in a 55 so the police and community aren’t REALLY that concerned about it, but if the opportunity arises to ticket me for it then they will take it. 19,999,999 people in the next 5 years decide to start driving 75 in a 55. NOW we have a serious problem on our hands because a very large slice of our communities have decided to start driving 75 in a 55. Do we pass a law increasing the speed limit to 75 even though we know that many more people will be maimed and killed on our roads or do we start to really crack down and enforce our existing speed limit laws?
It’s all about the numbers here. Of course we all break the law on a daily basis. What we all don’t do though is break the law in such vast numbers and with such blatant disregard on a daily basis that it will affect our entire country. When something like this starts to happen it has to be enforced. You can argue that Joe such and such speeds or smokes pot or drank a beer at 17. What do you think would happen if 20+ million Joes started speeding, drinking beers, smoking pot, stealing identities, and basically running amuck in our country? That’s right, we’d be right where we are right now.
Q: How do you deport ~15 million illegal aliens?
A: One at a time.
See if you can figure who are the Ants, Grasshoppers, and Spiders.
OLD VERSION: The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he’s a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.
MODERN VERSION: The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he’s a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. CBS, NBC, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when they sing, “It’s Not Easy Being Green.”
Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant’s house where the news stations film the group singing, “We shall overcome.” Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper’s sake. Howard Dean & John Kerry exclaim in an interview with Peter Jennings that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his “fair share.” Finally, the EEOC drafts the “Economic Equity and Anti-Grasshopper Act,” retroactive to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government. Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of federal judges that Bill appointed from a list of single-parent welfare recipients. The ant loses the case.
The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant’s food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant’s old house, crumbles around him because he doesn’t maintain it. The ant has disappeared in the snow. The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.
Park’d, Many is indeed a relative term, which is why saying that 20,000 in direct relative reference to 20 million doesn’t work, although 20 thousand by itself without that relational reference would. But forget about it. Obviously you choose to use the word in some special Park’d sense. Unfortunately what it would read to someone using non-Park’d English is a suggestion that “many” people in the population of illegal immigrants that you describe as 20 million plus are MS-13 hardened criminals. That simply isn’t true.
The extent of criminality in the illegal population as a whole is not great if you remove forms of criminality related to their entry or work status in this country. America has no trouble growing its own criminals and crime problem. Illegal immigrants, legal immigrants, folks just visiting, etc., may indeed add to the problem, but they are a drop in the bucket. The crime issue is a red herring brought up as a scare tactic. The rapes, murders, and other violence committed by illegal immigrants in this country is nothing compared to those here legally. In fact, it’s my experience that most illegal immigrants do everything they can to avoid any possible interactions with police.
I wouldn’t compare American enforcement of immigration laws, at the moment at least, to Nazi tactics of rounding up Jews, Gypsies, leftists, and others deemed undesirable. However, you said in your post that making such a comparison would get me ” tossed in jail,” which it most certainly wouldn’t. Germany has some laws that would be violations of the First Amendment in the US, in terms of what one can politically say and do, but not to the extent you suggest. Eyebrow raising is another thing. Again, I didn’t bring the Nazis into the argument, but you still have given even a hint of how you would identify who is illegal and who isn’t without trampling on the rights of all who fit the profile but are legal, not to mention without turning the United States into a police state, but maybe you wish that.
I did not, nor would I ever, minimize anything about the German Nazi persecution and murder of Jews, Gypsies, Leftists, and others they deemed undesirable. It would in fact be very strange for me to do so since my own maternal grandfather’s Eastern European shtetl (if you are familiar with that word) was destroyed by forces from your birth country. I would agree with you that to “Nazify” a political debate in this country is usually bad arguing. However, when one is speaking of “rounding up” millions for deportation, the analogy rears its exceedingly ugly head since we don’t have a whole lot of examples of such operations in recent history. But let’s leave the Nazis out of it. Just fears of a generic police state without it relating to the National Socialist government democratically elected in Germany is enough. However, I don’t really believe that you care about the Bill of Rights, otherwise you would not so blithely speak of rounding up anyone by the millions without looking to history to see what exactly that has involved and how it would threaten civil liberties to an unprecedented extent.
Majority doesn’t always rule in the United States. Our Constitution and other laws protect minority rights, thank God. If majorities ruled in the United States across the board in political culture, this country would be a very scary place in many ways, not least in regard to free-speech and religious rights for Jews, Muslims, and other non-Christians. But you are right, I obviously have not been persuasive in suggesting why saying things like “The American people are fed up” is ridiculous, even though it clearly is both ridiculous and demagogic.
Finally, I don’t accept the notion that because you are not a politician you should not have to explicate your ideas. You hint that your ideas would make the majority of illegal immigrants go to other locales, so yup, you really need to explain what you are talking about since that sounds fairly explosive. Your logic is really astonishing when you say that because you personally can’t implement a policy. there is no reason to discuss what you think that policy should be. What is this or any other political forum in our great country for but to have ordinary citizens express their ideas on what policies should be and defend their ideas against the criticism of other citizens?
“The crime issue is a red herring brought up as a scare tactic. The rapes, murders, and other violence committed by illegal immigrants in this country is nothing compared to those here legally. In fact, it’s my experience that most illegal immigrants do everything they can to avoid any possible interactions with police.”
So if illegals are avoiding any and all contact with the police as you say, how can you get an accurate set of crime statistics? The UCR only takes reported cases into account, so if you have illegal on illegal crimes such as robbery, rape, extortion etc., how are you going to track it? Your statements therefore contradict one another. What about non UCR crimes such as drunk driving, accidents involving illegals with injuries etc. where no immigration status is determined? Are you saying that non violent crimes committed by illegals and not properly tracked is a “red herring” scare tactic? Crime entails more than just violent crimes, and every illegal is a criminal. Add that forgery is a felony and those with these documents are also felons. To me that is a significant amount of crime, but that is just my opinion.
Everything in your post I have already answered at least once if not multiple times, yet you still try to argue my definition of twenty thousand not being what I refer to as “many”. Your responses are like a play on words, an enigma wrapped in a riddle, an obfuscation hidden deep within a shadow.
Websters defines the word “many” as: amounting to a large but indefinite number.
Is twenty thousand not a large number? Anywhere in my original post did I compare the ratio of twenty thousand to twenty million when I mentioned the word “many”? I simply said out of an estimated twenty million illegal aliens “many of those are hardened ms-13 criminals”. If we were talking about 100 illegal aliens and 2 of those were ms-13 members, then I wouldn’t have used the word “many”. AGAIN, so you can understand, since we are dealing with such TREMENDOUS numbers, I think the word “many” is valid. Websters agrees with me. Your bornhere interpretation of things is exactly that: YOURS. Why do you insist on arguing silly semantics? Why not just agree to the fact that twenty thousand thugs in our communities is a travesty of epic proportions?
I agree, keep the Nazis out of this. You cheapen your views when you go down that road. You brought it up first in your paragraph when you mentioned identifying badges on clothing so let’s keep that in mind. I also agree that you might not go to jail if you compared these two dissimilar situations in Germany, but you would definitely get more than you bargained for and we will leave it at that…
To make you happy from now on, I will say, “The Majority of The American People” when I refer to “The American People”. Even though I think your comparison to majority rules and minority rights is a wild tangent that is comparing apples to oranges and has completely skewed the original use of the term. You must be a lawyer.
I’m sorry you feel the way that you do about me choosing not to discuss my ideas with you. They are not radical ideas, they are not new ideas, and they are not even my ideas. They would take a few years to institute and they would inconvenience American citizens in the name of political correctness and adherence to the bill of rights (even though it is still heavily debated exactly which amendments can legally apply to illegal aliens anyway).
Park’d, I’d suggest ignoring BornHere’s game of semantics, because that’s just what it is…a game. I’ve seen that pseudo intellectual style before and it is of no substance, only an attempt at intellectual exercise. It adds nothing to the debate.
Disgusted,
I believe I explicitly pecified criminality that doesn’t have to do with their illegal entry and illegal work status in this country. The forged documents usually have to deal with both. Although, as nobody here seems to want to accept, half or more of illegal immigrants are subsidizing the social security system by billions of dollars because employers are withholding SS and other payroll taxes from their paychecks, so the fake SS numbers both hurt and help I guess.
Unreported crime is a problem for all communities in the United States, especially poor ones. All I said was that based on my own experience and reading, I would argue that illegal immigrants as a population are not *more* involved in criminality than the legal immigrant and native born population as a whole if you exclude crimes related to entry and work status. What I meant by a scare tactic is that the especially violent crimes of a small proportion of illegal immigrant population are used to implicate the wider, generally peaceful group of immigrants. In this country, most crimes are committed by males within a certain age range. I don’t think it would be right, however, to assume that the entire population of males within that age range are going to commit crimes just because their profile fits the bulk of criminals.
Now of course those who feel that illegal entry/status/work is in itself the height of criminality aren’t going to care about such nuances. They will call the entire population criminals as you did, explicitly. But if not following the law in every regard makes one a criminal, I think you would be hard pressed to find many non-criminals in our country since most of us have broken laws. I would guess that most of us have, for example, exceeded the speed limit, had a sip of alcohol before we were of age, committed sexual acts that are against the law in Virginia, failed to pay Virginia state tax on Net and other out of state purchases, etc. etc. The list goes on forever.
Park’d if you say “out of 20 million” many are something, then by definition, the number has to be “many” in relation to the 20 million. So yes, 20,000 out of 20 plus million is like 2 out of 100. But never mind. I do agree that “hardened criminals” are a serious problem for any community. Most such criminals in the United States percentage wise are American born however.
I see you find adherence to the Bill of Rights problematic, even for those of us who were born in this country or are here legally. I guess I would wonder then what actually you think you are defending in this nation if not our Constitutional traditions that would, by default, preclude the sorts of measures you hint at but won’t explain.
Bob Sentz, I enjoyed your post. Remember American Management Systems? Call me 587-8543!
This is a great website!
Comparing the roundup of Jews for purposes of extermination to the removal of illegal immigrants for deportation is so far removed from reality it strikes me as hilarious. The liberal posts on this web site resemble complete supidity.
Yes Charlie I agree. I have been verbally sparring with this guy all day, but alas I have grown tired of proving my point over and over and over only to have the same question asked in a different way in his next post. My work is done here.
How on earth does anyone propose to deport 12 million people? We simply do not have the infastructure. It would take 20-30 years to accomplish this task. Do the math.
Perhaps we need to consider alternatives. How about pulling our troops from Iraq. Obviously the Iraqis aren’t real keen on democracy or we wouldnt have to keep trying to convince them to try it, at the business end of a rifle.
Then we pick a Latin America country and overthrow the government. I think the hispanics certainly would be more hospitable towards the democracy notion than the Iraqis. You need a middle class to truly have a democracy. Perhaps many of our illegals would willingly self-deport if they could earn a decent living in their country of origin, if we could establish a democracy for them.
Frankly, I feel this would do ME a whole lot more good than whatever it is that the government is trying to accomplish in Iraq. Obviously I dont want to declare war on another country, but the idea is worth pondering as an intellectual excercise.
Dolph
Hey Goodtime,
Well I’m glad you took the reference to nazis literal, since it was meant more as a point of comparison or should I have said “nazi - like”. The mentality no matter how you want to sugar coat it is truly a form of singling out and rounding up a segment of society that you consider undesirable. Excuse their dust and ship them off like cattle. Thank God slavery isn’t legal or would you prefer that instead?
I expect that you know nothing of which you speak Anonymous. I believe Park’d addressed that issue quite eloquently. With regard to “ship(ping) them off like cattle,” obviously it doesn’t work that way, but if it did…so what? That’s the way they came here, voluntarily and illegally, so they shouldn’t mind going back that way. Good idea, Anonymous…don’t forget to put your suggestion in with Homeland Security.
Anonymous………I can’t argue such a well placed position. Let’s eliminate our borders, allow anyone for any reason to enter the country, eliminate all immigration laws………..and while we’re at it, remove the need for customs. No more inspections or trade policies. That should keep the evil Americans in check. Citizenship for everybody!
Let me describe your problem according to the enemy you know as FOX News. You sir, are a Kool-Aid drinker.
Good to see the good ol’ boys are entertaining themselves.
Park’d, your work has only just begun since you refuse to explicate your ideas or any potential solution to the problem you are all so het up about. But maybe you actually haven’t formulated any solution. That appears to be the problem for your entire movement. Lots of bluster, lots of hate, lots of rabbiting on about roosters, pushing #2 for Spanish, MS-13 under every bed, and too many cars in yards and bodies in houses, but no actual practical elucidation of any actual practical policy proposals and little compassion, historical sense, or wider political view. Though I have to say you are more compassionate than most on this list since you have admitted most of the people you are talking about are ordinary hard working folk.
Oh, and I am not a “guy,” although I know there is no reason for you to pick up on that fact. I’m the granddaughter of four immigrants of the Ellis Island period, all of whom came legally, and all of whom found in this country the same nativist bigotry your movement routinely displays, nonetheless.
Most Americans, BornHere, ARE the progeny of immigrants. Not all pass on to their progeny a family history of “nativist bigotry” as yours obviously did. Most pass on a family history of pride in accomplishment and love of adopted country. I was very fortunate in that I actually immigrated to this country (legally, of course) with my parents at a very young age and was able to witness that first hand.
You claim that our movement routinely displays nativist bigotry yet, with only one or two exceptions over the course of hundreds of comments, the only language of racism and bigotry I have seen on these threads come from you and your fellow illegal alien supporters.
AWCheney, calm yourself and please stop insulting my grandparents. They did no such passing as you describe. It was simply the reality of the early 20th century as any historian would attest. If you want some citations about the nativist movement of the Ellis Island era particularly against Jews, southern Europeans, Arabs, etc., I would be happy to supply them.
In terms of bigotry in the anti-illegal immigrant and (yes it exists) anti-immigrant movement of today, I was not confining myself to this site, although on this site I have found the same language of “breeding,” “anchor babies,” etc. that is evidence of that. I was primarily thinking of what I have seen in the comments section of virtually every Washington Post article or blog by people who are your comrades in terms of ideology. I would couple that with visits to the sites of anti-immigrant organizations, things I have heard said on videos of Minutemen supporters and similar on youtube, etc. etc. Actually while this site has some of that, especially in the hundreds and hundreds of posts that followed its owner’s appearance in the WP, it is relatively civil compared to the Post itself. There, in the comments section, the racism is fairly naked.
PS: AWCheney, you say that I have used racist language myself, ie. not in quoting anyone else. Could you tell me exactly where?
BornHere, I am obviously not the excitable one here (”…calm yourself and please stop insulting my grandparents. They did no such passing as you describe.”). My own comment was based upon what you said yourself (”I’m the granddaughter of four immigrants of the Ellis Island period, all of whom came legally, and all of whom found in this country the same nativist bigotry your movement routinely displays, nonetheless.”). As you were relating the experience of your grandparents, you , unlike me, did not witness that experience first hand, therefore their experiences of “nativist bigotry” were passed on to you. Perhaps YOU should calm down and clarify your comments. If you are speaking from your understanding of history rather than your grandparents’ experience, then you should have said so in the first place.
It just so happens that MY experience was first hand…my parents and I actually came through Ellis Island.
AWCheney, it was both …..but mainly history. And what I did hear was from their children, my parents and uncles and aunts. In any case, could you answer my question that I put in the PS? I am very interested in exactly where I used racist language.
I see the struggle for semantics is still ongoing…
I’ve got to hand it to you Bornhere. You refuse to back down even though your case has already been shown to be lacking. I apologize for calling you a guy btw. I suspected that you were a woman due to the ultra liberal tone of your messages, but I was in a hurry last night when I made that last post.
You write me that check for 250K and I’ll FEDEX you a copy of the three enforcement efforts that would be required to end this madness once and for all and get most of the illegals to simply go home and implement change in their home countries. I say efforts because they are already laws on the books that our local politicians, police, and anyone else in a position of power ignore and use to further their own financial gains and power bases. When this immigration mess is all said and done, there are going to be a lot of people that have some things to answer for. Personally, I would start with Manassas Park because they are the most corrupt local government in the NOVA area but alas I digress.
Why don’t these hard working, protest organizing, folks go back to their home country and make that a place one would like to live, work, and raise a family? remember: Su casa es mi casa!
dolphin_moon
How about YOU and the illegals go on down to South America and find a country to overthrow? Seems like the United States of America has been targeted for a takeover!
Born Here:
How much compassion is shown to the Guatemalans in mexico? How am I as a proud American supposed to show compassion for a group of people that invade my country, yes invade, and proceed to disrespect my flag and culture by protesting in the street with the mexican flag flying above an upside down American flag? That’s respectful? Respect is one of those things you have to give in order to get!!!
Q: How do you deport ~15 million illegal aliens?
A: One at a time.
Cost per illegal alien deported $10000. Not my numbers, ICE numbers
“How about YOU and the illegals go on down to South America and find a country to overthrow? Seems like the United States of America has been targeted for a takeover!”
Bod Sentz we are law abiding citizens who respect the law. So we won’t commit a crime to solve a problem.
Is that all you have Bob?
Stories about mom? Bring real solutions please
“Su casa es mi casa” All those years of Spanish didn’t pay off. That is why you are living next to people who just know how to use their hands
TH
You are not law abiding when you’ve gained entry by illegal means and you’ll never be law abiding until you return home and petition to come here legally.
And I intentionally wrote su casa es mi casa…figure it out!
BornHere,
The sad part about the language and solutions proposed is that we just hear parrots repeating what Lou Dobbs says everyday. They don’t even think and that is why they are in the mess they are now.
You don’t come up with logical arguments. You spit a little thing hear and there and they you get mad because we don’t get it.
“Why don’t you get about illegal aliens?” illegal is Illegal” “Not respect for our flag” ” No Speaking English”. Then if we don’t agree we are M-13 supporters, use grammar poorly, etc, etc.
Q:”How much compassion is shown to the Guatemalans in mexico?”
A: None, so what? Do we do the same? All the talk about religion and we end up behaiving a s a third-world country
So, why no compassion towards the Guatemalan’s?
Hiltler showed no compassion for Jews so Manassas people shoud do the same? Is that your logic?
The factv that Mexico shows no compassion for any foreigner doesn’t affect your decison-making in Mannasas. They don’r care about immigrants so we are entitled to do the same with their citizens.
You see that you are talking about people. I guess that “many” of them are just criminals.
I haven’t heard anyone suggesting to exterminate the illegals. All I’m hearing is that the majority of the American people want our laws enforced and for good reason. Here is a little speech written by Theodore Roosevelt in 1907 and I concur with every word and if you do not, then I suggest you are not an American and have no place here:
“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin.
But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American…There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag… We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language… and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”
— Theodore Roosevelt… 1907
TH: We are ALL in the mess we are in now because of greedy politicians and profit hungry CEO’s of corporations. Let’s face it, it’s not like the average person in a company benefits from illegal labor. At best they get a decrease in pay and nobody to speak English with. At worst they get replaced by an illegal that will work for 2/3 the pay and no benefits. Corruption is at the heart of this problem and the politicians and corporations responsible need to be identified and they need to be severely punished.
The average American citizen has nothing to do with this mess. At most there may be a number of average citizens that hire a day laborer now and then to do some work for them. I have never hired a day laborer to do anything for me. I also only do business with companies that can prove to me that they don’t hire illegals. I talk the talk and walk the walk. I was raised that way by a military father that taught me the difference between right and wrong. He taught me that a man never takes advantage of any other man and that honor is the most important thing a man can have. Apparently many of you in here weren’t lucky enough to have been raised like this. I know our politicians sure weren’t…
I await a response as to why any pro-illegal supporter thinks that we should just forgive 20+ million illegals and grant them instant citizenship?
Bob Sentz, are you serious? You agree 100% with the statement “We have room but for one language here, and that is the English language” ? Wow. All I can say is Wow. Ok, so how far does that go with you? Public uses of other languages? Private uses? Do you oppose having interpreters in court rooms? Do you think cable TV programs in other languages should be banned? Do you oppose having safety and other product information in booklets in French, Spanish, etc. along with English should be forbidden? Do you think all police or other public officials should refuse to speak to someone in their native language even if they know it and it would help ease some situation?
On the flag issue, you also agree that we have room for only one? So is that in all contexts, including, for example St. Patrick’s Day parades? And before you say that is not a political context, it most certainly has been since Irish-American parades often feature Irish politics. Would you also say the Puerto Ricans can’t fly their flag in a parade, or that any group of people from a particular heritage, whether immigrants or their descendants, should not walk with the flag of their ancestral homeland if they are protesting some issue in relation to it or US policy? Or you just feel such demonstrations should not be held at all? So, for example, if some Vietnamese now living here object to the policies of Vietnam’s president, who was just here in DC, they should not have the right to burnish a flag other than the US flag at their rallies? Would you make that illegal? Would it not bother you that such an attitude is 100% against the traditions of our First Amendment, which even protects, according to rulings by the U.S. Supreme Court, the burning and defacing of the US flag as political expression.
Finally, why is it that so many of you on this and similar sites make statements like:
“I concur with every word and if you do not, then I suggest you are not an American and have no place here…”
That kind of rhetoric, which I see all the time, is completely against our traditions in this country. What puzzles me even more than its patent offensiveness and lack of logic is why so many of you in this movement are so vested in proclaiming that X makes one of your fellow citizens an American, while Y does not, and that you think such trash talk is an effective criticism of your opponents.
Again another reference to Hitler and the Jewish extermination. I thought we decided not to use this reference any more? The closest representation of a comparison to a proposed mass deportation of illegal aliens now might be the Japanese internment during WW2. Over 100,000 Japanese were rounded up and sent to internment camps where they were treated humanely. Not a proud moment for the country, but I think that most people would agree was a necessary evil for national security. The only difference between the Japanese of then and the illegals of now is that the majority of the Japanese then actually WERE US citizens.
Once again our national security is threatened, our middle class is disappearing, our culture is being forcefully invaded. I also don’t care that you think I’m a bigot if you think that I shouldn’t be concerned about my culture. I am and I am also proud of it. I would expect that they too would be pissed if millions of Americans were to move to their major cities and tear town all their signs and replace them with English signs, replace their restaurants with Western fare, replace their music with country music, drive down their wages, bankrupt scores of their schools and hospitals, and generally just hijack what they have spent many decades cultivating as their own.
Give them an inch and they will take a yard, give them a yard and they will take a mile, give them a mile and they will take over the county, give them the county and they will take over the country. It ends now.
Born Here:
I stand by those remarks. And, again, if that offends you, adios, chow, adieu, hyvästi, adiosu, прощание, kwa herini, farväl, goodbye. We will have to agree to disagree.
Bob Sentz, so you stand by them. But you haven’t explained anything you are standing by unless you mean us to take the words in the speech literally and that would mean that you would like to eliminate the speaking or writing of any language other than English in the United States or the display of any flag other than Old Glory in a parade or demonstration or on a house etc. etc.?
Naturally, I do already assume you would have a language and flag waiver for diplomatic purposes and for foreign embassies/consulates, the United Nations, etc.
Would your desired elimination of other languages be limited to all public settings such as our courts, schools, and government offices? Or would it also apply to private businesses, private households, on the street, casual talk between schoolchildren? Please explain. This isn’t a matter of agreement or disagreement on the language/flag issue. I want to know, for you, the parameters of the “room” TR mentions. I am not even asking how you would police the use of other languages or what the penalties would be for violating the rules in a Bob Sentz America, just what those rules would be in terms of public and private domains.
Park’d, I am not sure why you think that most people would agree that Japanese wartime internment was a “necessary evil for national security.” Even at that time of reasonable fear there were objections that reached the Supreme Court concerning the mass detention. And the dissent on the policy didn’t only come from liberals or the Japanese American community. Such notoriously unliberal figures as J. Edgar Hoover also objected, though, not surprisingly, not on humanitarian grounds. Rather, he felt it wasn’t necessary. Even back then there were accusations of racism in the fact that there was no *mass* round up of citizens of German heritage, for example, despite the fact that sympathies for the German enemy and potential espionage also existed in that community. All that I have mentioned was back then, I would have to imagine that today there is even less support for the policy, although of course it is out there. I have read defenses of Japanese internment that are then combined with the notion of rounding up citizens and legal residents of Arab or Muslim backgrounds now, en masse.
I don’t think the US government would have formerly apologized and made reparations payments at the height of the conservative Reagan era unless there was a wider consensus that it was a flawed policy from the beginning. Japanese Americans hardly have the kind of numbers or influence to force payment of reparations without substantial sentiment from the wider public.
PS: Naturally, I meant “formally” not “formerly.” In these and other typos, I am typing too fast and proofing too little.
The TRUE cost of deportation:
What Would It Cost to Deport Illegal Aliens?
by Mac Johnson
Imagine that you came home tomorrow and found a stranger living in your home. Would you pay $148 to have him removed, or would you instead just legally adopt him and give him the run of the place to save the $148? The Center for American Progress, a liberal think tank in Washington, D.C., thinks the “practical” thing to do would be adopt the “undocumented family member” that broke into your home.
At least, that is what I can extrapolate from the report they released last week purporting to document the true cost of deporting –rather than amnestying– the 10 million illegal aliens that have smuggled themselves into our homeland over the past two decades. According to the study, which was dutifully reported by the Washington Post and others, it would cost the Federal Government $41 billion per year over the next five years to take the “draconian” step of actually enforcing our immigration laws.
Let’s pretend, for just a moment, that the ghost of the bloody Greek King Dracon is not laughing hysterically at the idea that being deported home in an air-conditioned bus is now considered “draconian.” And while we’re in fantasyland, let us also pretend that the $41 billion per year figure is even remotely accurate. The Federal Government has an annual budget of $2.34 trillion per year. Our Gross Domestic Product is a staggering $12 trillion per year. $41 billion would be just 1.7% of the Federal budget, and a miniscule 0.34% of our GDP.
Yet the Center for American Progress would have us believe that this sum is so far beyond us that we should instead surrender our country to whomever shows up in whatever numbers, rather than pay it. To put it in perspective, 0.34% would be $148 for someone earning $43,527 per year, the median family income in America. Unless you have really bad taste, this is probably what you paid for the locksets in your home.
And immigration enforcement serves the exact same purpose as those locks: allowing us to choose who comes into our home to live with us, and who is kept out. Immigration is a long American tradition, and it can be a benefit to our society and our economy, but not if it is unregulated. Many of us had ancestors that passed through Ellis Island. This was not just a rest stop on the way to the next exit. Ellis Island was an immigrant screening center. America has always retained the right to screen entrants, separate the bad from the good, and deport those deemed harmful. Uncontrolled immigration is ludicrous. A nation without the most basic power of all — the power to defend its own border — invites lawlessness and disaster, especially after September 11th.
Controlling who may enter our country is not optional. It must be done, and it is a bargain at just 0.34% of our income, a measly $41 billion. Either the Center for American Progress is really frugal, or else it has ulterior motives in judging the expenditure of these funds as “unrealistic”.
Since a Center for American Progress report on Medicaid funding, issued concurrently with the study of deportation costs, was entitled Medicaid: Give it another 40, I have to assume they are not especially frugal. Were it to never receive even a single increase over the next 40 years, Medicaid alone will cost the Federal Government $10,000 billion during that time span ($250 billion per year). And the message of the report was summed up in one sentence: “We should demand that our policymakers expand Medicaid, not cut it, as part of a larger plan to provide universal health care to all people in this nation.” So, clearly, the people at the Center for American Largesse are not entirely opposed to our Government spending money.
But now consider that the methods the Center for American Progress used to calculate the $41 billion figure are a little odd. For example, they estimate that it will cost a whopping $17,603 per apprehension to find one illegal alien. This may seem a little high to anyone who has ever been to Home Depot.
So how was this highly scientific estimate arrived at? By assuming that the current rate of workplace enforcement represents a best effort by the Federal Government. In 2003, they note, a grand total of 445 illegal aliens were arrested at worksites in America. No, you read right, 445 total. This figure is a clear indictment of the current corrupt system, in which the field agents are under orders to enforce the law as little as possible. But the Center for American Progress takes it as an accurate predictor of the efficiency of an earnest future effort.
The cost was then determined as: 445 worksite arrests, divided among the 90 agents involved in these arrests (yes, it apparently took 90 agents one year to find 445 illegal aliens), multiplied by an annual cost of $175,714 per agent. When inexplicably averaged with the figures from the year 1999 (240 agents arresting 2849 illegal aliens at worksites) the accuracy-minded fellows at the Center for American Progress came up with their figure of $17,603 per arrest. Perhaps the Washington Post missed the math part of the report?
Also, I can find about 445 illegal aliens standing on one street corner in Somerville, Massachusetts each morning. Perhaps the government can just ask me where to find illegals for less than $17,603 per pop? And these guys are really easy to capture. All you have to do is pull up in a pick-up truck, yell: “FIVE DOLLARS PER HOUR!” and they hop right in back. Really, it’s not that hard.
But again, let’s play the game and pretend the exaggerated $41 billion figure is true. Contrast that with how much deporting 10 million illegal aliens would save us in government services. According to the Center for Immigration Studies, illegal aliens cost the Federal Government a net $10 billion per year in services (including $2.5 billion stolen from Medicaid alone). After including this savings, we are now down to $31 billion cost per year to deport. At the state level, the Federation for American Immigration Reform reports that California alone spent a net $9 billion in a single year in services stolen by illegal aliens. Subtract this, and we are now down to a piddly $22 billion in cost per year to deport. 70% of illegal aliens live outside California, however, so assuming other states are defrauded at the same rate, this means they are losing, in total, $21 billion per year in services to illegal aliens. Subtracting this, we are now down to just $1 billion per year to deport.
Now consider that every illegal worker earns money, owns property and has savings. This is evidenced by the fact that Illegal immigrants remit over $1 billion dollars per month to their home countries via wire transfers from America. Since this is all contraband earned by illegal means, it should be subject to confiscation.
Assuming that every illegal worker has a modest car, personal property and savings of merely $5,000 total (a very conservative assumption given the wire transfer figure), this means that the 10 million criminal aliens in this country have $50 billion worth of assets subject to seizure. If taken over the five year period covered by the report from the fine folks at the Center for American Progress, this would mean that deporting illegal aliens would earn the United States a profit of $9 billion per year. And that’s enough to fund Medicare for almost two whole weeks—for those worried about Medicare funding.
I see the good ole boy network is alive and well in Manassas. I used to bristle over our surrounding neighbors calling us Manassholes but I think I am beginning to see why.
Bob, I am trying to decide of you don’t grasp hyperbole, are just rude, or so ultra far right that you would have those of us who might have varying opinions goose-stepping around the flagpole.
How about *I* stay right here and stand up to those who try to intimidate me.
Dolph
……”It is easier to stay out than get out.”…….Mark Twain
Another View: Very nice piece! I am confident that deporting them all would save Americans many billions of dollars over the next decade but unfortunately agree with our liberal friends that deportation is not the answer. Only taking away their reason to be here can solve this problem. Rounding them all up and enforcing the law, however justified that may be, is not the solution. Removing the rabbit’s cabbage patch is the only real solution. That way he will move on to someone else’s field.
Bornhere: The Japanese were more likely singled out for internment due to the fact that they sneak-attacked Pearl Harbor, there was great fear that they may have been able to attack our west coast cities, and the fact that they were the most vicious fighters that we had ever seen. Americans were terrified of them because of this. There were also many MAGIC intercepts that stated that they were trying to develop a spy ring using Japanese-Americans.
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