Driving liberals, dhimmis and illegal alien apologists absolutely insane since 2005...

Help Save Manassas Thursday

By Greg L | 24 July 2007 | Illegal Aliens, Manassas City, Prince William County | 177 Comments

The next meeting of Help Save Manassas will be at Manassas City Hall on Thursday, July 26th at 7:30.  Vice President Dan Arnold will be holding the reins while I’m out of town, and the meeting will feature Gainesville Supervisor John Stirrup.  It should be an interesting meeting, and I wish I was able to attend.

We’re expecting a large crowd, which will probably be the last at this location.  Manassas City Hall only holds about 100 people, and we’ve signed up over 200 members this month in addition to pretty much packing the room at every meeting already.  There will be provisions to handle any overflow crowd that develops, so don’t stay away just because you’re concerned that you might not get a seat in the council chambers.  We should be able to accommodate everyone that wants to attend in some fashion.

By sheer coincidence, I’m certain, Mexicanos Sin Fronteras will be holding a meeting nearby on the same evening, and if they decide to march over for a protest or something, having plenty of folks on-hand might not be a bad thing.  There’s about zero chance of trouble, but it’s still nice to be able to hold our own when this happens.

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  1. Anonymous said on 25 Jul 2007 at 3:38 am:
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    I think if as many people who feel offended by the idea that there are people willing to travel great distances and sacrifice everything they have at an opportunity to live in this great country and to work sometimes atleast 3 different jobs to help support their families, then let them feel proud of that belief.

  2. Legal2 said on 25 Jul 2007 at 6:56 am:
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    Proud of giving up on improving their own country; proud of committing a crime by coming here “undocumented” and lying to live and work here; proud of stealing jobs, services and healthcare from US citizens. Perhaps pride goeth before a fall?

  3. park'd said on 25 Jul 2007 at 8:09 am:
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    You know that’s the saddest thing out of all of this that these people don’t have the balls to stand up to corruption in their own countries and make them a better place. When you live in a country where 1% of the people hold 99% of the wealth and you don’t have the courage to force change then imo you deserve the squalor that you get. I neither respect nor condone what they have done to get to America and can’t see a justification for milking Americans dry because they are too lily-livered to overthrow the corrupt piss ants that run their own government. The entire thing is shameful.

  4. redawn said on 25 Jul 2007 at 8:39 am:
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    I totally agree with you, as you also stated this on a prior thread. EXCELLENT POINT!

  5. Batson D. Belfrey said on 25 Jul 2007 at 9:18 am:
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    Well said.

  6. BL said on 25 Jul 2007 at 10:54 am:
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    There are over 46 Millions American Citizens with no Medical, and Millions of American Children living in Poverty without a chance at the American Dream. There are over 35 million American going Hungry and Millions of elderly choosing between medicine and food. Our Veterans and injured Solders returning from Iraq are without decent medical care, While 12 Millions or more Illegal Aliens get full Medical care, Free Education and Welfare Paid for by American Taxpayers! Our intercity Blacks and high school drop outs have a 30 percent unemployed rate while Illegal Aliens drive the unskilled pay rate down until it is impossible to live without living like roaches 20 to a room.

    Illegal Aliens are killing more Americans every year than the Terrorist have killed in the last 10 years combined while Raping, Robbing and Assaulting 10,s of thousands of American Citizens and we are suppose to feel sorry for them. An Uneducated, Educating Hating, Welfare Loving, Criminally inclined Aliens that have a school drop out rate over 50 percent and that breed like Rabbits on Viagra to Populate the Gangs and Welfare rolls! With over 50,000 Illegal Aliens gang Members in LA County alone. They come here illegally, protest and demand their rights instead of Protesting and demanding their Rights in their own Countries. Apparently their rights include the right to turn this country into a Lawless Cesspool of Crime, Corruption, Drugs, Poverty, Cruelty, and Misery like they have built in Mexico and Latin American, just as long as it results in either Money or Votes for our Politicians!

  7. BL said on 25 Jul 2007 at 11:16 am:
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    Insecure Borders: Let’s Give Blame Where Blame Is Due

    By Peter Gadiel

    For five years, members of 9/11 Families for a Secure America have lobbied in Washington and in many state capitols for immigration law enforcement and secure borders. The opponents of our goals are many throughout Congress and elsewhere, but during this period the most powerful of them has been that individual with the sole authority to require the federal government to enforce these laws and who, by his refusal to do so, has made that government a co-conspirator in undermining the security of this Nation. That person is of course, George Bush.

    As chief of the Executive Branch he has under the Constitution not only the sole power but the duty to enforce the laws of our country, a duty he refuses to honor. He thumbs his nose at the obligations imposed on him by the Constitution, which, in the name of the God he claims to worship, he has sworn to uphold. Since the people of the United States have no recourse through the court system to make him enforce the law, he alone has the power to decide that illegal aliens will be permitted to prey on Americans, and he has made that decision.

    The harm that George Bush has done to this country is seen by many but felt most severely by those who have been the victims of crimes committed by illegal alien criminals, many of whom, after all, are in the United States due to Bush’s refusal to enforce federal laws already on the books.

    The president’s efforts to undermine the collective security of the Nation and the individual security of citizens have caused many to ask: “Why does Bush allow illegal aliens, every one a law breaker, to enter the United States freely? Why does he refuse to enforce existing law and to allow terrorists, violent felons and drug smugglers full access to their intended American victims? Why does he continuously ignore the Constitution and the oath he swore to uphold it? Why doesn’t he care about Americans suffering as a result of depressed wages and working conditions, or about the Americans who have been the victims of crimes committed by illegal aliens?”

    I have been meeting such victims and families for almost six years. As time passes I’ve grown more disturbed by what the Bush malfeasance indicates about his character. In part this is so because I meet ever more victims and see the list of victims grow longer. But there is another list that is also growing and this too affects my view of the man: the number of elected officials I have spoken with who, because of their positions in the government, have had one-on-one conversations with the president and who insist he is fully aware of the crimes inflicted by his illegal alien friends. There was a time when I gave Mr. Bush the benefit of the doubt; I believed he was insulated from the facts…that he didn’t know what was happening in the states. But now I grasp the truth: He does know. He doesn’t care: What kind of man must this be?

    But as to George Bush (and many other elected officials and bureaucrats) I have come to realize my original appraisal was wrong. His actions since 9/11 have, for me, established that he lacks concern for the lives of individual Americans. Three thousand people died on 9/11, but since that day far more than three thousand have been killed, individually or in small groups, by illegal aliens. And still he refuses to enforce the laws that would end the killing. Thousands of Americans have been killed in intentional murders, or as ‘by-products’ of robberies, rapes, beatings or auto accidents caused by drunken illegals driving automobiles. Thousands more lives have not been ended but have nevertheless been shattered by acts of violence short of murder, such as child molestation. (The Bush Administration makes a proper accounting of these crimes impossible by virtue of its refusal to require local police to inquire into the illegal status of those arrested.)

    That George Bush’s refusal to enforce the laws of this Nation has been the direct cause of these Americans’ death and suffering is simply beyond dispute. He and the Tony Snows and Michael Chertoffs he hires can protest all they want about the “impossibility” of securing our borders. He and they can pretend to be merely incompetent for only so long before Americans wake up and realize they’re not just incompetent, they are misrepresenting the truth.

    To the many who wonder why Bush is doing what he’s doing, I offer some advice. For a long time I wondered too. Finally, I realized the futility of spending another moment on this imponderable. The reason why doesn’t matter. The fact that it is so is all that matters. But for those who need to have an answer as to the ‘why’ of the Bush actions I suggest you look at the motives of others who have betrayed our country: ideology, revenge, greed.

    One or more of these pretexts must be what Bush employs in his own mind to justify his tolerance of violence and death. In that sense he is undoubtedly conventional, typical of his breed. But in one respect Mr. Bush has carved out a place that is unique among corrupt politicians. In his obsession to pass his amnesty, a major tool in the permanent elimination of our borders, he offered what amounted to a bribe, in public, to members of the US Senate, telling them that if they would vote for his amnesty bill he would provide 4.5 billion dollars to build the border fence that a 2005 federal law he signed required to be built. In those two years Mr. Bush has managed to get only a few miles of that fence built, but suddenly he saw that enforcement of this federal law could be used as a payoff to be offered to Senators to vote for his amnesty. Presto, he promises to come up with four and a half billion to build it.

    Of course Mr. Bush is far from the first politician to engage in illegal or immoral behavior. But it is customary for politicians to try and keep their corruption a secret. For example, Boss Tweed of New York; Sen. Tom Dodd (father of the current Sen. Dodd) of Connecticut, Ted Kennedy. These bribe takers, philanderers, drunk drivers and lady killers at least tried to keep their crimes hidden from the public. As reprehensible as they were or are, they at least comprehended that their actions deviated from the norm and felt sufficient concern for public opinion that they didn’t want their crimes exposed. Mr. Bush appears to be unique in this regard, for either he lacks awareness that his behavior is wrong, or his contempt for the people of the United States is so absolute that he is doesn’t care that we see him offering bribes.

    Naturally, when corrupt politicians are discussed Bill and Hillary Clinton cannot be ignored: Whitewater; cattle futures; Travelgate; Vince Foster; pardons for Susan McDougal, Puerto Rican terrorists, and Marc Rich; questioning the meaning of the word “is.” We also cannot forget that for eight years prior to September 11, while Moslem terrorists escalated their attacks against the United States these co-Presidents successfully schemed to avoid dealing with terrorism by sweeping it under the rug for their successor. These are the two who paved the way for September 11 by their refusal to respond with sufficient force to the numerous terrorist acts that occurred during their presidency: the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center, the embassy bombings, the Mogadishu atrocities, the bombing of the USS Cole, etc. By their inaction they encouraged and permitted the growth of the power of binLadin. Ultimately, the greatest responsibility for September 11 lies not with Bush but with the Clintons.

    Yet it is George Bush who has been in office for six years after the murders of 3000 on 9/11. It is he who has been president since then as crimes by illegals have killed thousands more. It is possible to excuse the inaction of the Clintons as opportunistic passing of the buck to their successor in the White House. But George Bush cannot claim that excuse. The resulting damage was obvious for all to see. He cannot claim ignorance. He cannot avoid his guilt. Yet, he marches on, completely dismissing the blood that is spilled and the pain that results from his refusal to act.

    It is useless to speculate about “why” he permits these crimes. So to those who continue to wonder, my advice is: don’t waste another moment of thought on the matter. Use your energy to contact your members of Congress, your governor, state legislators. Then contact them again, and then again. Educate your friends and enlist them in the cause of immigration reform.

    Elected officials do respond to pressure from constituents. You have power, but only if you use it by communicating repeatedly with them. The richly funded campaigns of LaRaza, Chamber of Commerce, Ford Foundation, bankers, lawyers, et al., to open our borders succeed precisely because they make themselves heard while others remain silent. Your silence in the face of their campaigns is as powerful an ally of the open borders lobby as the open borders lobbyists themselves. So, make yourselves heard. You have a voice. Use it.

  8. Rick Bentley said on 25 Jul 2007 at 11:19 am:
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    Travel great distances? Hardly an excuse for crimes committed. If for example a guy travels from Liberia to rape his niece, that doesn’t give him justification or make it right.

    Sacrifice everything? I thought they came here because they had so little.

    Work 3 different jobs? That’s 3 less jobs for Americans.

    We can’t have their way or life here and our social safety net continuing at the same time. It’s one or the other. We also can’t have my one-family-to-a-house property tax rate subsidizing people who live 3 families to a house (and play dumb for the zoning inspector, claiming to be related). I won’t have it. I don;t want to pay for them, and I won’t. Those who break the law need to be held accountable. They may be heros in your eyes, but they’re crooks in mine, who engage in human smuggling and pay off drug runners to come here and take jobs away from Americans by virtue of enabling crooked employers to pay less tax and medical benefits.

  9. Maureen Wood said on 25 Jul 2007 at 3:25 pm:
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    Rick Bentley-

    Please come to the HSM meeting Thursday night.

  10. Karen said on 25 Jul 2007 at 4:53 pm:
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    Where did you find the piece you posted by Peter Gadiel?

  11. BL said on 25 Jul 2007 at 8:24 pm:
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    Karen I have Google alerts set for Illegal Aliens & it was on one of the Alerts!

  12. park'd said on 25 Jul 2007 at 9:10 pm:
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    If anyone asks why we want to crack down on illegal aliens you need to look no further than the link above. God help us all.

  13. BornHere said on 25 Jul 2007 at 9:18 pm:
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    Immigrants, illegal and legal alike, are helping out their countries of origin. Remittances sent home by family members are major sources of income and improvement for poor people and have transformed entire communities. They are actually far more efficient, direct, and equitable than the US foreign aid budget, which does not allocate on the basis of poverty as the identity of the #1 aid recipient would indicate. And immigrants, especially those who are illegal, do give up a lot, even if they were poor, because what one has to give up is not only material. But maybe all of you don’t feel there is anything but the material in life.

    They work harder than most of us for less money and they do pay taxes. All pay sales tax and as many as 50 or more percent are having SS and other payroll taxes withheld by employers that they will never recover. They are part of what is keeping the SS system afloat. See, for example, the NYT story of 4/5/05 “Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions.” URL is too long to post, but if you put that headline in Google you will find it for free.

    As for stealing jobs, that is ludicrous for the most part, especially in an affluent area like this one. Tell me you really believe that if tomorrow every illegal immigrant were to magically disappear from the DC Metro area that employers would fill every single slot they leave open, even if the wages were doubled. Tell me you believe that. Because employers all over the country who have tried to hire Americans for certain kinds of work have come up wanting. This is not even to mention the fact that most of you affiliate with a party that has worked forever to avoid raising the minimum wage (which is so far from a living wage it isn’t funny) and has done everything to avoid improving working conditions for the native-born working class. If their being illegal is a problem, then work to legalize them (with a penalty) if you prefer, to pay their alleged debt to this society, although I feel that with how hard they have worked, they have already paid it in full. Many have lived here for decades as law-abiding workers. This is not even to mention the fact that for the largest group among Latino immigrants in this region, Salvadorans, the United States was directly involved in making their society as violent and dysfunctional as possible. But then I don’t expect any of you to take a historical view on this issue. You don’t seem to on any aspect of immigration since you ignore the fact that immigrants in the Ellis Island era, while legal, were tarred with exactly the same sorts of criticism you launch and immigrants today are assimilating exactly the same way over time and through second generations. You deny the racist labels, but all over this blog and other forums, the language you use is either explicit or coded yet overt. You don’t want a lot of Spanish speaking immigrants around you period. You don’t want to read Spanish on signs or products or have to push #1 for English. Bizarrely I guess, none of this bothers me. I live next to illegal immigrants in my apartment building, I ride the bus everyday with them, and what I see in 99% of them are people working as hard as they can, living in groups because they have to, doing, in the main, jobs others don’t want, and keeping masses of people back home from abject poverty.

  14. Joseph Heinzinger said on 25 Jul 2007 at 10:56 pm:
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    You ignorant person of the 1099 execption. You can contract your self out as a private contractor by the hour in the construction industry. NO fica taxes, No federal taxes, No state taxes, etc. With a bogus social security number as a 1099 worker you can get WIC for your pregnant wife, with which the department of social services is all to happy to help you with a spanish interpreter and forms in spanish. There are no checks on the system we have, except for the 90 woman who has to produce a birth certificate to get her medicade. Comon people, Don,t you remember when Reagan determined that ketchup was a vegatable? I see in the stores the immagrants recieving there WIC and I JUST WONDER, Why I am I supporting the constuction industry with my taxes? Answere me that.

  15. Had to Say said on 25 Jul 2007 at 11:17 pm:
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    BornHere- “As for stealing jobs, that is ludicrous for the most part”

    Tell that to the American people that are losing their businesses because they do the right thing and hire legal workers. This is happening within the Manassas area. When you have unscrupulous employers that pay under the table, and you can’t tell me that the majority of illegal’s receive a regular pay check, they can NOT compete. They are constantly under cut because they have “cheap” labor. And I am tired of hearing they are all hard workers. Just like everyone else there are some who work hard and others who don’t!

    You people that advocate for illegal’s make me sick.

    We have plenty of poor Americans that need the attention that these illegal’s are getting. Why do you all insist that we should allow law breakers into our country? Why don’t you go to their countries and help them organize there, to create a better life there, not here.

  16. Anonymous said on 25 Jul 2007 at 11:26 pm:
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    WARNING AGAIN - “Help Save whatever town” brings nothing but divisiveness and uncivil confrontations. I live in Herndon, and I KNOW !!!

  17. BornHere said on 26 Jul 2007 at 12:06 am:
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    Had to Say, I don’t recall saying anywhere that “we should allow law breakers into our country.” Fact is, they are already here. If you honestly think that 12 million or more people are going to be deported, you are naive. Many do pay into the system, I guess you didn’t bother to read the article, and I never said they all work hard, that has just been my experience with the ones I see everyday. I think America has been strengthened by immigrants throughout its history, legal and illegal, and the best thing to do, given that there will be no mass deportation no matter how much your movement wishes it, is to create some kind of path toward legalization, as I stated, with a penalty if that makes you feel better. As I said, they are already helping to create better lives in their home countries, through remittances, as are legal immigrants. There is no accusation on this board that hasn’t been used against legal immigrants as well in our nation’s history, from “stealing” jobs to not learning English fast enough. I am glad to hear that you think poor Americans should get the attention these “illegal’s” [sic] are getting. I assume then that you are in favor of a substantial rise in the minimum wage to make it an actual living wage, some kind of system of universal health insurance since we have millions of native born Americans who are uninsured, greater worker protections across the board, and subsidized child care so single native born American mothers have a chance to succeed. That’s wonderful.

  18. Anonymous said on 26 Jul 2007 at 1:08 am:
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    If you look at our Great American History: we first hated the Chinese, the Polish, the Italians, the Greeks, the Jews, the Irish, the Spanish and now we get to hate the Mexicans, the Central Americans and South Americans. We are a equal hating country. The ones who came from Europe came over in big ships and came through Ellis Island. Not too easy to sneak through there…. However, there were those that did make it through undocumented since some belonged to their own mafia. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that this hasn’t happened before. If you want to really blame somone look no further than the employers eagerly highering these new immigrants at the lowest wage possible; exploiting them and turning them over to the authorities like nazis.

  19. Good Time Charlie said on 26 Jul 2007 at 7:01 am:
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    Anonymous (26 july at 1:08)
    You’re a fool. Keep watching N.B.C. for your facts. Illegal immigrants portrayed as victims. The next item you should discuss is allowing the Mexican government to determine U.S. policy within our own borders.

    I’ll bet you believe the Bush administration plotted the 9-11 attacks. What a liberal jerk-off.

  20. park'd said on 26 Jul 2007 at 7:24 am:
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    OK, let’s keep the Nazis out of this. Let’s not even go there lest you lose your argument before it even begins. Americans dislike lawlessness. You libs can spin this however you want but it comes down to the fact that we have 20+ million lawbreakers in our midst, many of whom are hardened MS-13 criminals, that need to be dealt with. Yes of course there were illegals during the Ellis Island days, but certainly nowhere near the numbers or ratios per American citizen that we see today. America could stomach a few hundred thousand to a few million illegals if it had to, but 20+ million starts to change the American way of life, our culture, our neighborhoods, our standard of living, our infrastructure, etc, etc. Call us racists, call us bigots since it is the only thing you know how to do in a debate when you know that you can’t defend the base issue. We don’t care. We have the truth on our side. You don’t. Period. The end.

    As far as “Help Save Whatever Town” being an organization that divides is concerned: maybe that’s what we need. People need to choose sides on this issue. There is no compromise here. You either reward lawlessness or you don’t. There is no middle ground. You either round them up, send them back to whatever country they came from and fine the living hell out of the business that hired them or you reward lawlessness and pi$$ all over our constitution, our national security and our way of life. The line is here | You are either on the left or the right of this line and there will be no compromise.

  21. BornHere said on 26 Jul 2007 at 9:11 am:
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    Ah Park’d, you are so modest. You have truth on your side, period. No ambiguity, no middle ground, no gray area.

    I have a couple of questions.

    1. Okay, you have decided the figure is 20+ million. Fine, whatever. It isn’t the government’s figure, there is no real way of knowing, but it’s a figure. You then say “many of whom are hardened MS-13 criminals….” Now the word “many” implies a substantial number, does it not. And you have begun with the figure of 20+ plus, so that would have to mean what? Five million of that number? 2 million? 3? Are you actually stating here with a straight face that MS-13 members *in the United States alone* amount to millions of people or even one million? Are you? Do you have even the tiniest bit of substantiation for that statement. I am not minimizing the violence and thuggishness of that particular gang/criminal organization in the least, but you are engaging in totally ridiculous hyperbole and reading you past posts, it isn’t the first time.

    2. You give a stark alternative and obviously advocate one side when you speak of rounding up. Now going back to that 20+ plus number. Exactly how are you going to round them up? Even assuming a certain proportion would leave, once said rounding up started, to round up just half of that number, or a third, or even a fourth would take massive resources and logistics. Assuming even that 70 percent come from countries south of the United States, that still leaves 30 percent that would need to be sent across the two oceans on our borders. Exactly where would the money come from? Where would the personnel come from? Don’t say the military because, guess what? They are busy. Are you saying law enforcement will “round up” millions when ICE won’t even be handling more than a tiny little number of the folks that you all in PWC and LC try to turn in? Before you bring up Ike, the actual rounding up in that situation back in the 50s only amounted to a few hundred thousand at the most. I can give a historical citation if you would like. So please, explain something about the logistics, the funding etc. of rounding up. I realize (hope?) you are not a policy maker, but all of us ciitzens can at least speculate on such matters can we not? Can you even produce one practical hint of how this would happen? Has any nation in the world ever “rounded up” several million people in the way you suggest, or even come close? Oh wait….maybe you don’t want to go there.

    3. You talk about lawlessness and pissing on the Constitution. I’m just curious. I assume you would like to avoid getting the Bill of Rights wet. Exactly how would you handle identifying those who are illegal from those who are not? Accent? Skin color? Would you think it was appropriate to have law enforcement or vigilante groups made up of fine Americans such as yourself stopping every person they suspect and demanding proof of legal status over and over and over again? Would you suggest some sort of always visible ID to indicate which ones that fit the general profile (eg. not native English speakers) have already been checked? Would you have any kind of check on such powers? Would you permit the criminal or civil prosecution of those who abused such roles and harassed the same legal residents over and over, or would those who are unlucky enough to be both legal but fit the profile you have in your head just be fated to be identifying themselves over and over all the time. I guess that is where the identifying badge worn outside on clothing might come in. Oops, perhaps you don’t want to go there.

    So there it is. Substantiate, even in small way, your claims about many of 20 million plus people being MS-13, and please offer even a hint of practical aspects of the rounding up you so desire and how you would prevernt abuses of the very same document you profess (rather unconvincingly) to so admire.

  22. Fenian said on 26 Jul 2007 at 9:29 am:
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    Born here, pure and simple, its against the law and the American people are fed up.

    You talk about the “remitances” that they send back to thier country. You are absolutely right. Thats one of the reasons why the pack 20 people to a townhouse. They could afford an aparment with one or two roomates if they werent sending half or more of the pay check out of the country.

  23. redawn said on 26 Jul 2007 at 9:37 am:
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    Born Here,

    check this out

  24. BornHere said on 26 Jul 2007 at 9:42 am:
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    Fenian, wow….interesting name given the subject. You say it is against the law “pure and simple.” Yes, well lots of things are, things you likely do yourself. If it were for even one minute about some purist notion of what is or isn’t against the law, that would be one thing. But if you are honest, that isn’t what it is about or you would be as intent on searching out everything against the law that you or others do and quashing those people and actions in the same way. You also talk about remittances as though they are somehow illicit. First, perfectly legal immigrants do the same thing and also often also live in more crowded conditions than many native-born Americans would accept or tolerate. Remittances actually benefit the United States as well as the masses back home in the immigrants’, legal and illegal homelands, because improving conditions of poverty around the world is in our national interest.

    Finally, you say “the American people are fed up.” How wonderfully modest of you to speak for the entire American people. I am American. Last time I checked the midwestern state of my birth and the state, Virginia, where I have lived for 30 years haven’t seceded and joined Canada, and I am not “fed up.” Many other Americans are not fed up either. Some don’t really obsess on this issue, others are actively sympathetic toward illegal immigrants or just don’t see a feasible solution. Even if such Americans are a smaller group than those “fed up,” I would imagine they amount to tens of millions of people at the minimum. You could have said people from Manassas are fed up , which would still be too blanket a statement, but at least might have an inkling of truth. But no. You said, in all your exalted modesty, you claimed “the American people.”

  25. Scott said on 26 Jul 2007 at 10:13 am:
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    History has shown that when we actually enforce our own laws, the illegals move away on their own. When Eisenhower started the illegal sweep back in the 50’s several million of them went back to their own countries on their own. When you punish those who hire illegals to the point that they will not hire them anymore, the illegals go away on their own, no deportation necessary.

    Let us not forget the fraudulent documents that these people have to get work. You honestly don’t think that is a victim less crime, do you? My BIL is a 20 year military veteran who had his identity stolen by illegal aliens, 17 of which were using his identity in one form or another. One bought a house with his info, refinanced and walked away with over $100,000 in cash. Almost 3 years later he is still fighting to clear his name and info and was nearly kicked out of the Air Force due to it. Everyone illegal that has these forged documents is a felon

    So how do we find out who is legal for a job? The IMAGE program pilot by homeland security is a good start. When it comes online in full scale (now a pilot program) there will be no excuse for employers claiming they got fooled by fake documents.

    Many illegals are here working as indentured servants, paying off debts to the people who brought them here by working for slave wages far below minimum.

    My mother was an immigrant, a legal immigrant. My mother in law was also a legal immigrant and had to learn English. Both took years to do so, but they both did it legally. They respected the laws of this country and did it the right way.

  26. Anonymous said on 26 Jul 2007 at 10:24 am:
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    Good Time Char Lie: The only thing that NBC and other media netwoks care about is ratings and making money. There is always 2 sides to every story and you happen to only like the side you agree with. FOX network really spins a very ultra conservative view and calls it “fair and balanced” except it leans way too much to the right. The Hanity Insanity hour.

    The only thing you can say is each time our beloved president George Dubya says: “bin laden hates us for our freedom”. bin laden sadly only said: “he doesn’t like our imposed policies in that region” (for many years before 9/11). Of course we ignored those statements and the rest is history….

  27. BornHere said on 26 Jul 2007 at 11:00 am:
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    Scott, actually several million did not leave during the sweep initiated by the Eisenhower Administration. Why? Because there were not “several” million here unless you really think that nearly 3 is several and that all of them left, which isn’t the case. For an interesting write up about the Eisenhower era program by someone who appears sympathetic to that tactic see this article from the Christian Science Monitor.


    Congratulations on your mother and learning English “legally,” whatever that means. Your sentence was perhaps a tad convoluted, but I get the point. They were here legally and they learned English. Well many illegal immigrants are also learning English and their children definitely are. Everyday I hear a child respond back to his or her mother in English to a comment in Spanish or other languages. I also hear them using English among themselves playing. It is a matter of time. The language issue is a red herring. If anything, the vast majority of Americans are the ones who handicap themselves by fetishizing English to the point that they refuse to learn another language. In Europe, that would be a joke. In any case, it doesn’t bother me that countless and I mean countless immigrants of past generations never learned to speak English very well or sometimes at all beyond a few words although their children did, and that the same issue is repeating itself now.

  28. park'd said on 26 Jul 2007 at 1:05 pm:
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    First off, nowhere did I say, “millions of illegals are ms-13 gang members”. I said, “many of whom are hardened criminals”. “Many” is a relative term and in this instance obviously means thousands to tens of thousands. According to Newsweek, March 28, 2005, over 10,000 MS-13 gang members have illegally crossed our borders. This number is almost two years old. The illegal alien problem has geometrically increased since then according to many sources which you are already well aware of but will no doubt ask me to cite for you just to be coy. If you take the increasing ratio of illegals and edit your 10,000 ms-13 member estimation, then you can see we are looking at many tens of thousands of illegals who are ms-13 members. You may say, “that’s only 1/10th of 1%”. I, the MAJORITY of citizens, and the victims of these thugs say that 1/10th of 1% is still 1/10th of 1% more than should be here, especially considering the Northern Virginia area is a major hub of ms-13 activity. I’m sure some of their victims, namely Manassas citizen Wanda Angelos whose son CJ was murdered by one of them, would not share your opinion of what constitutes an insignificant number.


    10-20 thousand ms-13 members is a TREMENDOUS number of criminals in our midst and you should be embarrassed as a law-abiding citizen for thinking otherwise. In fact, only a SINGLE ms-13 member who crosses the border illegally is one too many. Any law abiding citizen would agree with me.

    Again with the Nazi implications. Only a true liberal ever goes there. Funny that you mention that the American outlook of a single national language would never be accepted in Europe and then you proceed to talk about European lifestyle. If you try to compare that Nazi analogy in Germany to something as dissimilar as an illegal alien invasion it would get you tossed in jail.

    I have never offered any solution other than rounding them up and shipping them home, or giving them the option of military service to earn their citizenship. Many here would not trust their sons and daughters in a foxhole with an illegal lawbreaker. I, on the other hand, think that most of them are decent people and that if they are willing to risk their lives in defense of this great country to become a citizen that they would then make an honorable citizen and prove their devotion to the USA. Deadbeats milking the system I can’t and won’t tolerate.

    Using some of the estimates that are in the trillions of dollars that illegals will cost American tax payers in the next decade, it becomes clear to me and anyone else that can do simple math that it would actually BE cheaper to evict all of them and then lock down the border if you consider it as a TCO action. This means basically that it may cost more up front to deport them, but in the long run would actually be much cheaper.

    When the term “The American People” is used, it is used to reflect the majority of the American People. This ratio may be 51% to 49% or it may be 80% to 20% depending on which polls you choose to believe, but it is still used to reflect that the majority of The American People ARE against illegal immigration. But then you already know this because you are a clever person and can do your own simple research.

    I also do not get paid 250K a year to come up with solutions. I am an American citizen who looks to my leaders to do that. They have failed us all miserably in this situation. I’ll tell you what though; you pay me 250K a year to come up with a solution to this problem and I GUARANTEE you that I will do a 100X better job of it than these sellouts that run our Federal, State, and Local Governments.

    You are quite adept at obfuscating arguments and twisting them around to suit your needs. As I said before: The truth is on OUR side (”our” meaning the majority of The American People). We are right and you are wrong. We are law abiding citizens and you are…well you make up your own mind.

    Any more issues you wish to debate with me?

  29. BornHere said on 26 Jul 2007 at 1:50 pm:
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    Park’d, you have an interestingly loose approach to language. “Many” is indeed a relational term. And you had just specified a numerical population of 20 plus million and used the term “many” to refer back to it. If you are using “many” in relation to 20 million plus, you cannot possibly only mean thousands or tens of thousands because then you would render the term “many” meaningless as a measure of anything or as a communicative term.

    To be crystal clear, I’ll take a simpler example. What if I said here are 100 students, many of whom speak fluent French. If it turned out that only two of the group spoke fluent French, then I would have been using the term “many” incorrectly. Yet, that is precisely what you did in the original language of your post in terms of proportions, well no, actually it was an even more ludicrous proportion given the numbers you came out with finally, in relation to the 20 million plus illegal immigrants.

    In addition, what you put in quotes above saying that it is something you never said is not language that I used. I will assume you put it in quotes to set it off and not that you actually think you are quoting me. Actually, you don’t seem capable of accurately quoting even yourself, which is really remarkable. In your reply to me above you state that you said:

    “First off, nowhere did I say, “millions of illegals are ms-13 gang members”. I said, “many of whom are hardened criminals”.

    Yet, in the post I had replied to, this was your actual language:

    “….we have 20+ million lawbreakers in our midst, many of whom are hardened MS-13 criminals, that need to be dealt with. ”

    So in truth you did refer directly with the term “many” back to 20 million and slipped MS-13 in-between hardened and criminals, which is unlike what you claim you said. Who distorts their own language? Is your scroll bar broken?

    My objection was not to your concern that the presence of “hardened MS-13 criminals” is a problem. My objection is the notion that you could describe them even in the remotest of terms as “many” among the population of illegal immigrants that you state is 20 million plus. And again, proportionality and usage demands that “many” in *direct* relation to a figure of 20 plus million can not be measured in the tens of thousands.

    As for the Nazi thing, that was another poster. I only played a tiny bit on your exchange with him/her and never mentioned the Nazis by name. I do note, however, that you ignore the constitutional implications I brought up that would be involved in any “rounding up.” You also don’t appear to know much about the laws in Germany in regards to making historical comparisons and going to jail for them????, but that is irrelevant. I was only bemoaning the fact that most Europeans, at least most educated Europeans outside the UK, routinely speak more than one language and I think that is a good thing.

    Also, just because you state that the phrase “the American people” do or think x or y always means a majority no matter how slight doesn’t mean that it is true. To place the words “the American people” in front of a statement “are fed up” is nothing but demagoguery. You could have said “a majority,” you could have said, “growing numbers of Americans” or “millions of Americans,” but as I have seen all over this forum, those of you in this movement like to claim some sort of overwhelming mandate that doesn’t exist. It doesn’t exist not because huge numbers of Americans are sympathetic to illegal immigrants, although obviously some are, but also because there are huge numbers for whom this issue isn’t a pressing concern so they could hardly be fed up. In any case, I think saying the American people ARE anything, other than American or similar, for example, is ludicrous in an amazingly diverse, pluralistic society of 301 million. I don’t agree it refers to the smallest of majorities. It certainly doesn’t in politics. We have this wonderful language. It costs nothing to use terms that don’t make you look as though you are ignoring millions of people who disagree with you.

    Finally, I am glad you offer the option of military service since many would not even do that. But I still say that not only do we not have the resources for the “round up” you advise, or even a heavily reduced version of it, we would violate the Constitution that you claim to love if we began such an action against millions and millions of people and we would encourage the kind of vigilanteeism that has plagued other periods of US history. You haven’t said one thing about the inevitable constant harassment that would occur against people who are legally in this country, but who fit the profile of those who are not. So I ask again, how exactly would you find out who to round up and how exactly would you prevent a legal immigrant from being constantly harassed because he/she fit the profile?

  30. BornHere said on 26 Jul 2007 at 2:38 pm:
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    PS to Park’d: I find it astonishing that you choose to imply more than once that unless one agrees with you, one is not law-abiding.

    That is ludicrous, not to mention un-American. Although, perhaps it is both un-American and quite American since that kind of false binary is so common here. America, love it or leave it etc. In any case, I would imagine I am as law-abiding as you are. I would imagine also that you are not totally law abiding in its strictest sense, but perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps you are the rare paragon of virtue who has never once exceeded a posted speed limit, had a sip of an alcoholic drink before he was of age, bought an item online without filling out the form to pay Virginia tax, indulged in an intimate act or cohabitation that is against the laws of Virginia, etc. etc. etc. Or is it just some laws that one need abide?

  31. park'd said on 26 Jul 2007 at 3:50 pm:
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    Again with the obfuscation. As I said before, which you apparently missed; “many” is a relative term. In this case since we are talking about such drastic numbers of millions of illegals I think that we can all agree that 20+ thousand ms-13 members could be considered “many”. Am I not correct? If I had said, “The majority of which are ms-13 members” or “A great percentage of which are ms-13 members” then your analogy might stand but since I said, “Many of which are ms-13 members” then I think my statement stands. I only threw out an arbitrary term using the word “many” based on the sheer number of illegals that we are dealing with here. How you can sit here and say that using the term “many” is not an accurate representation of 20+ thousand illegal ms-13 members just shows everyone how out of touch with reality that you are and to what extent you will go to argue a baseless case. Why are we arguing semantics anyway when we all know that 20+ thousand ms-13 members is a tragedy for our communities? Who cares whether I slipped ms-13 in before or after anywhere in my quoted sentence? It is assumed since we are talking about ms-13 in the first place that it is them to which I was referring. If you add in your daily run of the mill murderers, rapists, burglars, robbers and any other type of illegal alien criminal that isn’t a member of ms-13, then this 20+ thousand number would probably jump to well over 100,000 and just bolster my case that much more. You might think that wordsmithing is a clever use of your time and mine, but I tire of it very quickly.

    I was born in Germany. My mother is a German citizen and grew up there, she speaks fluent German and we still have family there, some of which lived through the war. I assure you that if you try and make the case over there that Americans enforcing immigration laws is comparable to Hitlers extermination of the Jews, that you will raise your fair share of eyebrows and get yourself in an undesirable situation. They take allegations like that very seriously in Germany. Comparing the enforcement of existing US immigration laws and the invasion of the USA by illegal aliens to the Jewish extermination and passage of the Nuremberg Laws is just plain ludicrous. I think you also minimize just what the Jewish people went through if you were to even think that. We can pass no such ‘Nuremberg Laws’ with reference to the illegal aliens because they are not currently citizens, unlike the Jews in Germany who actually were. I have to assume that you think this comparison is accurate since you said, “I guess that is where the identifying badge worn outside on clothing might come in. Oops, perhaps you don’t want to go there.” Again, only a liberal would sink that low.

    I also believe that Americans learning to speak a second or even a third language is a good thing and should be encouraged. I took four years of Spanish in high school and two years in college myself. I am by no means fluent, but I can certainly carry on a conversation if the tongues don’t hit warp speed :P I do not believe however that Americans should be forced to learn a different language in their own country just to accommodate a group of people that shouldn’t be here in the first place. There are many government jobs now that an American citizen can’t even get unless they speak Spanish. Rolling up this carpet of accommodation is the first step in getting these people to learn English.

    Your opinion of what constitutes “The American People” and mine are just different and we will leave it at that. As I already stated before, my definition of The American People means the majority. Since majority rules, it stands to reason that this would be an acceptable definition. It’s your choice as to whether or not you accept this or not. I think it is a waste of time for us to keep debating this point since it is moot anyway.

    I do have some ideas on how to put everybody on an equal playing field and determine citizenship, but since I am not a politician and am not in a position to implement these ideas, it makes no sense for me to get into that. Suffice it to say, if some of these ideas were implemented (which I take no credit for since many of them have been around since back before our last amnesty and were never implemented) the majority of illegals would move on to other locales, or God willing back to their own home countries where they could take some of their newfound courage and institute change in their own corrupt countries. Now there’s an idea for you!

  32. park'd said on 26 Jul 2007 at 4:08 pm:
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    As far as your last post is concerned; again you just don’t get it. Let me lay this example out for you:

    I am a speeder. I like to drive fast. I know I am breaking the law but you know I still do it. I like to drive 75 in a 55. It’s just me driving 75 in a 55 so the police and community aren’t REALLY that concerned about it, but if the opportunity arises to ticket me for it then they will take it. 19,999,999 people in the next 5 years decide to start driving 75 in a 55. NOW we have a serious problem on our hands because a very large slice of our communities have decided to start driving 75 in a 55. Do we pass a law increasing the speed limit to 75 even though we know that many more people will be maimed and killed on our roads or do we start to really crack down and enforce our existing speed limit laws?

    It’s all about the numbers here. Of course we all break the law on a daily basis. What we all don’t do though is break the law in such vast numbers and with such blatant disregard on a daily basis that it will affect our entire country. When something like this starts to happen it has to be enforced. You can argue that Joe such and such speeds or smokes pot or drank a beer at 17. What do you think would happen if 20+ million Joes started speeding, drinking beers, smoking pot, stealing identities, and basically running amuck in our country? That’s right, we’d be right where we are right now.

  33. Bob Sentz said on 26 Jul 2007 at 4:08 pm:
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    Q: How do you deport ~15 million illegal aliens?
    A: One at a time.

  34. Bob Sentz said on 26 Jul 2007 at 4:11 pm:
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    See if you can figure who are the Ants, Grasshoppers, and Spiders.

    OLD VERSION: The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he’s a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.

    MODERN VERSION: The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he’s a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. CBS, NBC, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when they sing, “It’s Not Easy Being Green.”

    Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant’s house where the news stations film the group singing, “We shall overcome.” Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper’s sake. Howard Dean & John Kerry exclaim in an interview with Peter Jennings that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his “fair share.” Finally, the EEOC drafts the “Economic Equity and Anti-Grasshopper Act,” retroactive to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government. Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of federal judges that Bill appointed from a list of single-parent welfare recipients. The ant loses the case.

    The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant’s food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant’s old house, crumbles around him because he doesn’t maintain it. The ant has disappeared in the snow. The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.

  35. BornHere said on 26 Jul 2007 at 4:29 pm:
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    Park’d, Many is indeed a relative term, which is why saying that 20,000 in direct relative reference to 20 million doesn’t work, although 20 thousand by itself without that relational reference would. But forget about it. Obviously you choose to use the word in some special Park’d sense. Unfortunately what it would read to someone using non-Park’d English is a suggestion that “many” people in the population of illegal immigrants that you describe as 20 million plus are MS-13 hardened criminals. That simply isn’t true.

    The extent of criminality in the illegal population as a whole is not great if you remove forms of criminality related to their entry or work status in this country. America has no trouble growing its own criminals and crime problem. Illegal immigrants, legal immigrants, folks just visiting, etc., may indeed add to the problem, but they are a drop in the bucket. The crime issue is a red herring brought up as a scare tactic. The rapes, murders, and other violence committed by illegal immigrants in this country is nothing compared to those here legally. In fact, it’s my experience that most illegal immigrants do everything they can to avoid any possible interactions with police.

    I wouldn’t compare American enforcement of immigration laws, at the moment at least, to Nazi tactics of rounding up Jews, Gypsies, leftists, and others deemed undesirable. However, you said in your post that making such a comparison would get me ” tossed in jail,” which it most certainly wouldn’t. Germany has some laws that would be violations of the First Amendment in the US, in terms of what one can politically say and do, but not to the extent you suggest. Eyebrow raising is another thing. Again, I didn’t bring the Nazis into the argument, but you still have given even a hint of how you would identify who is illegal and who isn’t without trampling on the rights of all who fit the profile but are legal, not to mention without turning the United States into a police state, but maybe you wish that.

    I did not, nor would I ever, minimize anything about the German Nazi persecution and murder of Jews, Gypsies, Leftists, and others they deemed undesirable. It would in fact be very strange for me to do so since my own maternal grandfather’s Eastern European shtetl (if you are familiar with that word) was destroyed by forces from your birth country. I would agree with you that to “Nazify” a political debate in this country is usually bad arguing. However, when one is speaking of “rounding up” millions for deportation, the analogy rears its exceedingly ugly head since we don’t have a whole lot of examples of such operations in recent history. But let’s leave the Nazis out of it. Just fears of a generic police state without it relating to the National Socialist government democratically elected in Germany is enough. However, I don’t really believe that you care about the Bill of Rights, otherwise you would not so blithely speak of rounding up anyone by the millions without looking to history to see what exactly that has involved and how it would threaten civil liberties to an unprecedented extent.

    Majority doesn’t always rule in the United States. Our Constitution and other laws protect minority rights, thank God. If majorities ruled in the United States across the board in political culture, this country would be a very scary place in many ways, not least in regard to free-speech and religious rights for Jews, Muslims, and other non-Christians. But you are right, I obviously have not been persuasive in suggesting why saying things like “The American people are fed up” is ridiculous, even though it clearly is both ridiculous and demagogic.

    Finally, I don’t accept the notion that because you are not a politician you should not have to explicate your ideas. You hint that your ideas would make the majority of illegal immigrants go to other locales, so yup, you really need to explain what you are talking about since that sounds fairly explosive. Your logic is really astonishing when you say that because you personally can’t implement a policy. there is no reason to discuss what you think that policy should be. What is this or any other political forum in our great country for but to have ordinary citizens express their ideas on what policies should be and defend their ideas against the criticism of other citizens?

  36. Disgusted said on 26 Jul 2007 at 5:20 pm:
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    “The crime issue is a red herring brought up as a scare tactic. The rapes, murders, and other violence committed by illegal immigrants in this country is nothing compared to those here legally. In fact, it’s my experience that most illegal immigrants do everything they can to avoid any possible interactions with police.”

    So if illegals are avoiding any and all contact with the police as you say, how can you get an accurate set of crime statistics? The UCR only takes reported cases into account, so if you have illegal on illegal crimes such as robbery, rape, extortion etc., how are you going to track it? Your statements therefore contradict one another. What about non UCR crimes such as drunk driving, accidents involving illegals with injuries etc. where no immigration status is determined? Are you saying that non violent crimes committed by illegals and not properly tracked is a “red herring” scare tactic? Crime entails more than just violent crimes, and every illegal is a criminal. Add that forgery is a felony and those with these documents are also felons. To me that is a significant amount of crime, but that is just my opinion.

  37. park'd said on 26 Jul 2007 at 5:44 pm:
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    Everything in your post I have already answered at least once if not multiple times, yet you still try to argue my definition of twenty thousand not being what I refer to as “many”. Your responses are like a play on words, an enigma wrapped in a riddle, an obfuscation hidden deep within a shadow.

    Websters defines the word “many” as: amounting to a large but indefinite number.

    Is twenty thousand not a large number? Anywhere in my original post did I compare the ratio of twenty thousand to twenty million when I mentioned the word “many”? I simply said out of an estimated twenty million illegal aliens “many of those are hardened ms-13 criminals”. If we were talking about 100 illegal aliens and 2 of those were ms-13 members, then I wouldn’t have used the word “many”. AGAIN, so you can understand, since we are dealing with such TREMENDOUS numbers, I think the word “many” is valid. Websters agrees with me. Your bornhere interpretation of things is exactly that: YOURS. Why do you insist on arguing silly semantics? Why not just agree to the fact that twenty thousand thugs in our communities is a travesty of epic proportions?

    I agree, keep the Nazis out of this. You cheapen your views when you go down that road. You brought it up first in your paragraph when you mentioned identifying badges on clothing so let’s keep that in mind. I also agree that you might not go to jail if you compared these two dissimilar situations in Germany, but you would definitely get more than you bargained for and we will leave it at that…

    To make you happy from now on, I will say, “The Majority of The American People” when I refer to “The American People”. Even though I think your comparison to majority rules and minority rights is a wild tangent that is comparing apples to oranges and has completely skewed the original use of the term. You must be a lawyer.

    I’m sorry you feel the way that you do about me choosing not to discuss my ideas with you. They are not radical ideas, they are not new ideas, and they are not even my ideas. They would take a few years to institute and they would inconvenience American citizens in the name of political correctness and adherence to the bill of rights (even though it is still heavily debated exactly which amendments can legally apply to illegal aliens anyway).

  38. AWCheney said on 26 Jul 2007 at 5:58 pm:
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    Park’d, I’d suggest ignoring BornHere’s game of semantics, because that’s just what it is…a game. I’ve seen that pseudo intellectual style before and it is of no substance, only an attempt at intellectual exercise. It adds nothing to the debate.

  39. BornHere said on 26 Jul 2007 at 6:20 pm:
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    I believe I explicitly pecified criminality that doesn’t have to do with their illegal entry and illegal work status in this country. The forged documents usually have to deal with both. Although, as nobody here seems to want to accept, half or more of illegal immigrants are subsidizing the social security system by billions of dollars because employers are withholding SS and other payroll taxes from their paychecks, so the fake SS numbers both hurt and help I guess.

    Unreported crime is a problem for all communities in the United States, especially poor ones. All I said was that based on my own experience and reading, I would argue that illegal immigrants as a population are not *more* involved in criminality than the legal immigrant and native born population as a whole if you exclude crimes related to entry and work status. What I meant by a scare tactic is that the especially violent crimes of a small proportion of illegal immigrant population are used to implicate the wider, generally peaceful group of immigrants. In this country, most crimes are committed by males within a certain age range. I don’t think it would be right, however, to assume that the entire population of males within that age range are going to commit crimes just because their profile fits the bulk of criminals.

    Now of course those who feel that illegal entry/status/work is in itself the height of criminality aren’t going to care about such nuances. They will call the entire population criminals as you did, explicitly. But if not following the law in every regard makes one a criminal, I think you would be hard pressed to find many non-criminals in our country since most of us have broken laws. I would guess that most of us have, for example, exceeded the speed limit, had a sip of alcohol before we were of age, committed sexual acts that are against the law in Virginia, failed to pay Virginia state tax on Net and other out of state purchases, etc. etc. The list goes on forever.

  40. BornHere said on 26 Jul 2007 at 6:33 pm:
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    Park’d if you say “out of 20 million” many are something, then by definition, the number has to be “many” in relation to the 20 million. So yes, 20,000 out of 20 plus million is like 2 out of 100. But never mind. I do agree that “hardened criminals” are a serious problem for any community. Most such criminals in the United States percentage wise are American born however.

    I see you find adherence to the Bill of Rights problematic, even for those of us who were born in this country or are here legally. I guess I would wonder then what actually you think you are defending in this nation if not our Constitutional traditions that would, by default, preclude the sorts of measures you hint at but won’t explain.

  41. Chris Rosato said on 26 Jul 2007 at 7:24 pm:
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    Bob Sentz, I enjoyed your post. Remember American Management Systems? Call me 587-8543!

    This is a great website!

  42. Good Time Charlie said on 26 Jul 2007 at 8:56 pm:
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    Comparing the roundup of Jews for purposes of extermination to the removal of illegal immigrants for deportation is so far removed from reality it strikes me as hilarious. The liberal posts on this web site resemble complete supidity.

  43. park'd said on 26 Jul 2007 at 10:01 pm:
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    Yes Charlie I agree. I have been verbally sparring with this guy all day, but alas I have grown tired of proving my point over and over and over only to have the same question asked in a different way in his next post. My work is done here.

  44. dolphin_Moon said on 26 Jul 2007 at 10:49 pm:
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    How on earth does anyone propose to deport 12 million people? We simply do not have the infastructure. It would take 20-30 years to accomplish this task. Do the math.

    Perhaps we need to consider alternatives. How about pulling our troops from Iraq. Obviously the Iraqis aren’t real keen on democracy or we wouldnt have to keep trying to convince them to try it, at the business end of a rifle.

    Then we pick a Latin America country and overthrow the government. I think the hispanics certainly would be more hospitable towards the democracy notion than the Iraqis. You need a middle class to truly have a democracy. Perhaps many of our illegals would willingly self-deport if they could earn a decent living in their country of origin, if we could establish a democracy for them.

    Frankly, I feel this would do ME a whole lot more good than whatever it is that the government is trying to accomplish in Iraq. Obviously I dont want to declare war on another country, but the idea is worth pondering as an intellectual excercise.


  45. Anonymous said on 26 Jul 2007 at 11:37 pm:
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    Hey Goodtime,

    Well I’m glad you took the reference to nazis literal, since it was meant more as a point of comparison or should I have said “nazi - like”. The mentality no matter how you want to sugar coat it is truly a form of singling out and rounding up a segment of society that you consider undesirable. Excuse their dust and ship them off like cattle. Thank God slavery isn’t legal or would you prefer that instead?

  46. AWCheney said on 26 Jul 2007 at 11:57 pm:
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    I expect that you know nothing of which you speak Anonymous. I believe Park’d addressed that issue quite eloquently. With regard to “ship(ping) them off like cattle,” obviously it doesn’t work that way, but if it did…so what? That’s the way they came here, voluntarily and illegally, so they shouldn’t mind going back that way. Good idea, Anonymous…don’t forget to put your suggestion in with Homeland Security.

  47. Good Time Charlie said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:22 am:
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    Anonymous………I can’t argue such a well placed position. Let’s eliminate our borders, allow anyone for any reason to enter the country, eliminate all immigration laws………..and while we’re at it, remove the need for customs. No more inspections or trade policies. That should keep the evil Americans in check. Citizenship for everybody!

    Let me describe your problem according to the enemy you know as FOX News. You sir, are a Kool-Aid drinker.

  48. Anonymous said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:09 am:
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    Good to see the good ol’ boys are entertaining themselves.

  49. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 6:06 am:
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    Park’d, your work has only just begun since you refuse to explicate your ideas or any potential solution to the problem you are all so het up about. But maybe you actually haven’t formulated any solution. That appears to be the problem for your entire movement. Lots of bluster, lots of hate, lots of rabbiting on about roosters, pushing #2 for Spanish, MS-13 under every bed, and too many cars in yards and bodies in houses, but no actual practical elucidation of any actual practical policy proposals and little compassion, historical sense, or wider political view. Though I have to say you are more compassionate than most on this list since you have admitted most of the people you are talking about are ordinary hard working folk.

    Oh, and I am not a “guy,” although I know there is no reason for you to pick up on that fact. I’m the granddaughter of four immigrants of the Ellis Island period, all of whom came legally, and all of whom found in this country the same nativist bigotry your movement routinely displays, nonetheless.

  50. AWCheney said on 27 Jul 2007 at 8:10 am:
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    Most Americans, BornHere, ARE the progeny of immigrants. Not all pass on to their progeny a family history of “nativist bigotry” as yours obviously did. Most pass on a family history of pride in accomplishment and love of adopted country. I was very fortunate in that I actually immigrated to this country (legally, of course) with my parents at a very young age and was able to witness that first hand.

    You claim that our movement routinely displays nativist bigotry yet, with only one or two exceptions over the course of hundreds of comments, the only language of racism and bigotry I have seen on these threads come from you and your fellow illegal alien supporters.

  51. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 8:56 am:
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    AWCheney, calm yourself and please stop insulting my grandparents. They did no such passing as you describe. It was simply the reality of the early 20th century as any historian would attest. If you want some citations about the nativist movement of the Ellis Island era particularly against Jews, southern Europeans, Arabs, etc., I would be happy to supply them.

    In terms of bigotry in the anti-illegal immigrant and (yes it exists) anti-immigrant movement of today, I was not confining myself to this site, although on this site I have found the same language of “breeding,” “anchor babies,” etc. that is evidence of that. I was primarily thinking of what I have seen in the comments section of virtually every Washington Post article or blog by people who are your comrades in terms of ideology. I would couple that with visits to the sites of anti-immigrant organizations, things I have heard said on videos of Minutemen supporters and similar on youtube, etc. etc. Actually while this site has some of that, especially in the hundreds and hundreds of posts that followed its owner’s appearance in the WP, it is relatively civil compared to the Post itself. There, in the comments section, the racism is fairly naked.

  52. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:17 am:
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    PS: AWCheney, you say that I have used racist language myself, ie. not in quoting anyone else. Could you tell me exactly where?

  53. AWCheney said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:36 am:
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    BornHere, I am obviously not the excitable one here (”…calm yourself and please stop insulting my grandparents. They did no such passing as you describe.”). My own comment was based upon what you said yourself (”I’m the granddaughter of four immigrants of the Ellis Island period, all of whom came legally, and all of whom found in this country the same nativist bigotry your movement routinely displays, nonetheless.”). As you were relating the experience of your grandparents, you , unlike me, did not witness that experience first hand, therefore their experiences of “nativist bigotry” were passed on to you. Perhaps YOU should calm down and clarify your comments. If you are speaking from your understanding of history rather than your grandparents’ experience, then you should have said so in the first place.

    It just so happens that MY experience was first hand…my parents and I actually came through Ellis Island.

  54. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 10:30 am:
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    AWCheney, it was both …..but mainly history. And what I did hear was from their children, my parents and uncles and aunts. In any case, could you answer my question that I put in the PS? I am very interested in exactly where I used racist language.

  55. park'd said on 27 Jul 2007 at 11:19 am:
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    I see the struggle for semantics is still ongoing…

    I’ve got to hand it to you Bornhere. You refuse to back down even though your case has already been shown to be lacking. I apologize for calling you a guy btw. I suspected that you were a woman due to the ultra liberal tone of your messages, but I was in a hurry last night when I made that last post.

    You write me that check for 250K and I’ll FEDEX you a copy of the three enforcement efforts that would be required to end this madness once and for all and get most of the illegals to simply go home and implement change in their home countries. I say efforts because they are already laws on the books that our local politicians, police, and anyone else in a position of power ignore and use to further their own financial gains and power bases. When this immigration mess is all said and done, there are going to be a lot of people that have some things to answer for. Personally, I would start with Manassas Park because they are the most corrupt local government in the NOVA area but alas I digress.

  56. Bob Sentz said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:08 pm:
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    Why don’t these hard working, protest organizing, folks go back to their home country and make that a place one would like to live, work, and raise a family? remember: Su casa es mi casa!

  57. Bob Sentz said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:13 pm:
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    How about YOU and the illegals go on down to South America and find a country to overthrow? Seems like the United States of America has been targeted for a takeover!

  58. Bob Sentz said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:36 pm:
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    Born Here:
    How much compassion is shown to the Guatemalans in mexico? How am I as a proud American supposed to show compassion for a group of people that invade my country, yes invade, and proceed to disrespect my flag and culture by protesting in the street with the mexican flag flying above an upside down American flag? That’s respectful? Respect is one of those things you have to give in order to get!!!

  59. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:38 pm:
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    Q: How do you deport ~15 million illegal aliens?
    A: One at a time.

    Cost per illegal alien deported $10000. Not my numbers, ICE numbers

  60. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:42 pm:
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    “How about YOU and the illegals go on down to South America and find a country to overthrow? Seems like the United States of America has been targeted for a takeover!”
    Bod Sentz we are law abiding citizens who respect the law. So we won’t commit a crime to solve a problem.
    Is that all you have Bob?
    Stories about mom? Bring real solutions please

  61. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:43 pm:
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    “Su casa es mi casa” All those years of Spanish didn’t pay off. That is why you are living next to people who just know how to use their hands

  62. Bob Sentz said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:49 pm:
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    You are not law abiding when you’ve gained entry by illegal means and you’ll never be law abiding until you return home and petition to come here legally.

    And I intentionally wrote su casa es mi casa…figure it out!

  63. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:49 pm:
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    The sad part about the language and solutions proposed is that we just hear parrots repeating what Lou Dobbs says everyday. They don’t even think and that is why they are in the mess they are now.
    You don’t come up with logical arguments. You spit a little thing hear and there and they you get mad because we don’t get it.
    “Why don’t you get about illegal aliens?” illegal is Illegal” “Not respect for our flag” ” No Speaking English”. Then if we don’t agree we are M-13 supporters, use grammar poorly, etc, etc.

  64. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:51 pm:
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    Q:”How much compassion is shown to the Guatemalans in mexico?”
    A: None, so what? Do we do the same? All the talk about religion and we end up behaiving a s a third-world country

  65. Bob Sentz said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:53 pm:
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    So, why no compassion towards the Guatemalan’s?

  66. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:57 pm:
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    Hiltler showed no compassion for Jews so Manassas people shoud do the same? Is that your logic?
    The factv that Mexico shows no compassion for any foreigner doesn’t affect your decison-making in Mannasas. They don’r care about immigrants so we are entitled to do the same with their citizens.
    You see that you are talking about people. I guess that “many” of them are just criminals.

  67. Bob Sentz said on 27 Jul 2007 at 1:13 pm:
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    I haven’t heard anyone suggesting to exterminate the illegals. All I’m hearing is that the majority of the American people want our laws enforced and for good reason. Here is a little speech written by Theodore Roosevelt in 1907 and I concur with every word and if you do not, then I suggest you are not an American and have no place here:

    “In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin.
    But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American…There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag… We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language… and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”

    — Theodore Roosevelt… 1907

  68. park'd said on 27 Jul 2007 at 1:46 pm:
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    TH: We are ALL in the mess we are in now because of greedy politicians and profit hungry CEO’s of corporations. Let’s face it, it’s not like the average person in a company benefits from illegal labor. At best they get a decrease in pay and nobody to speak English with. At worst they get replaced by an illegal that will work for 2/3 the pay and no benefits. Corruption is at the heart of this problem and the politicians and corporations responsible need to be identified and they need to be severely punished.

    The average American citizen has nothing to do with this mess. At most there may be a number of average citizens that hire a day laborer now and then to do some work for them. I have never hired a day laborer to do anything for me. I also only do business with companies that can prove to me that they don’t hire illegals. I talk the talk and walk the walk. I was raised that way by a military father that taught me the difference between right and wrong. He taught me that a man never takes advantage of any other man and that honor is the most important thing a man can have. Apparently many of you in here weren’t lucky enough to have been raised like this. I know our politicians sure weren’t…

    I await a response as to why any pro-illegal supporter thinks that we should just forgive 20+ million illegals and grant them instant citizenship?

  69. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 1:54 pm:
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    Bob Sentz, are you serious? You agree 100% with the statement “We have room but for one language here, and that is the English language” ? Wow. All I can say is Wow. Ok, so how far does that go with you? Public uses of other languages? Private uses? Do you oppose having interpreters in court rooms? Do you think cable TV programs in other languages should be banned? Do you oppose having safety and other product information in booklets in French, Spanish, etc. along with English should be forbidden? Do you think all police or other public officials should refuse to speak to someone in their native language even if they know it and it would help ease some situation?

    On the flag issue, you also agree that we have room for only one? So is that in all contexts, including, for example St. Patrick’s Day parades? And before you say that is not a political context, it most certainly has been since Irish-American parades often feature Irish politics. Would you also say the Puerto Ricans can’t fly their flag in a parade, or that any group of people from a particular heritage, whether immigrants or their descendants, should not walk with the flag of their ancestral homeland if they are protesting some issue in relation to it or US policy? Or you just feel such demonstrations should not be held at all? So, for example, if some Vietnamese now living here object to the policies of Vietnam’s president, who was just here in DC, they should not have the right to burnish a flag other than the US flag at their rallies? Would you make that illegal? Would it not bother you that such an attitude is 100% against the traditions of our First Amendment, which even protects, according to rulings by the U.S. Supreme Court, the burning and defacing of the US flag as political expression.

    Finally, why is it that so many of you on this and similar sites make statements like:

    “I concur with every word and if you do not, then I suggest you are not an American and have no place here…”

    That kind of rhetoric, which I see all the time, is completely against our traditions in this country. What puzzles me even more than its patent offensiveness and lack of logic is why so many of you in this movement are so vested in proclaiming that X makes one of your fellow citizens an American, while Y does not, and that you think such trash talk is an effective criticism of your opponents.

  70. park'd said on 27 Jul 2007 at 2:04 pm:
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    Again another reference to Hitler and the Jewish extermination. I thought we decided not to use this reference any more? The closest representation of a comparison to a proposed mass deportation of illegal aliens now might be the Japanese internment during WW2. Over 100,000 Japanese were rounded up and sent to internment camps where they were treated humanely. Not a proud moment for the country, but I think that most people would agree was a necessary evil for national security. The only difference between the Japanese of then and the illegals of now is that the majority of the Japanese then actually WERE US citizens.

    Once again our national security is threatened, our middle class is disappearing, our culture is being forcefully invaded. I also don’t care that you think I’m a bigot if you think that I shouldn’t be concerned about my culture. I am and I am also proud of it. I would expect that they too would be pissed if millions of Americans were to move to their major cities and tear town all their signs and replace them with English signs, replace their restaurants with Western fare, replace their music with country music, drive down their wages, bankrupt scores of their schools and hospitals, and generally just hijack what they have spent many decades cultivating as their own.

    Give them an inch and they will take a yard, give them a yard and they will take a mile, give them a mile and they will take over the county, give them the county and they will take over the country. It ends now.

  71. Bob Sentz said on 27 Jul 2007 at 2:18 pm:
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    Born Here:
    I stand by those remarks. And, again, if that offends you, adios, chow, adieu, hyvästi, adiosu, прощание, kwa herini, farväl, goodbye. We will have to agree to disagree.

  72. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 2:40 pm:
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    Bob Sentz, so you stand by them. But you haven’t explained anything you are standing by unless you mean us to take the words in the speech literally and that would mean that you would like to eliminate the speaking or writing of any language other than English in the United States or the display of any flag other than Old Glory in a parade or demonstration or on a house etc. etc.?

    Naturally, I do already assume you would have a language and flag waiver for diplomatic purposes and for foreign embassies/consulates, the United Nations, etc.

    Would your desired elimination of other languages be limited to all public settings such as our courts, schools, and government offices? Or would it also apply to private businesses, private households, on the street, casual talk between schoolchildren? Please explain. This isn’t a matter of agreement or disagreement on the language/flag issue. I want to know, for you, the parameters of the “room” TR mentions. I am not even asking how you would police the use of other languages or what the penalties would be for violating the rules in a Bob Sentz America, just what those rules would be in terms of public and private domains.

  73. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 2:57 pm:
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    Park’d, I am not sure why you think that most people would agree that Japanese wartime internment was a “necessary evil for national security.” Even at that time of reasonable fear there were objections that reached the Supreme Court concerning the mass detention. And the dissent on the policy didn’t only come from liberals or the Japanese American community. Such notoriously unliberal figures as J. Edgar Hoover also objected, though, not surprisingly, not on humanitarian grounds. Rather, he felt it wasn’t necessary. Even back then there were accusations of racism in the fact that there was no *mass* round up of citizens of German heritage, for example, despite the fact that sympathies for the German enemy and potential espionage also existed in that community. All that I have mentioned was back then, I would have to imagine that today there is even less support for the policy, although of course it is out there. I have read defenses of Japanese internment that are then combined with the notion of rounding up citizens and legal residents of Arab or Muslim backgrounds now, en masse.

    I don’t think the US government would have formerly apologized and made reparations payments at the height of the conservative Reagan era unless there was a wider consensus that it was a flawed policy from the beginning. Japanese Americans hardly have the kind of numbers or influence to force payment of reparations without substantial sentiment from the wider public.

  74. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 3:00 pm:
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    PS: Naturally, I meant “formally” not “formerly.” In these and other typos, I am typing too fast and proofing too little.

  75. Another View said on 27 Jul 2007 at 3:35 pm:
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    The TRUE cost of deportation:

    What Would It Cost to Deport Illegal Aliens?
    by Mac Johnson

    Imagine that you came home tomorrow and found a stranger living in your home. Would you pay $148 to have him removed, or would you instead just legally adopt him and give him the run of the place to save the $148? The Center for American Progress, a liberal think tank in Washington, D.C., thinks the “practical” thing to do would be adopt the “undocumented family member” that broke into your home.

    At least, that is what I can extrapolate from the report they released last week purporting to document the true cost of deporting –rather than amnestying– the 10 million illegal aliens that have smuggled themselves into our homeland over the past two decades. According to the study, which was dutifully reported by the Washington Post and others, it would cost the Federal Government $41 billion per year over the next five years to take the “draconian” step of actually enforcing our immigration laws.

    Let’s pretend, for just a moment, that the ghost of the bloody Greek King Dracon is not laughing hysterically at the idea that being deported home in an air-conditioned bus is now considered “draconian.” And while we’re in fantasyland, let us also pretend that the $41 billion per year figure is even remotely accurate. The Federal Government has an annual budget of $2.34 trillion per year. Our Gross Domestic Product is a staggering $12 trillion per year. $41 billion would be just 1.7% of the Federal budget, and a miniscule 0.34% of our GDP.

    Yet the Center for American Progress would have us believe that this sum is so far beyond us that we should instead surrender our country to whomever shows up in whatever numbers, rather than pay it. To put it in perspective, 0.34% would be $148 for someone earning $43,527 per year, the median family income in America. Unless you have really bad taste, this is probably what you paid for the locksets in your home.

    And immigration enforcement serves the exact same purpose as those locks: allowing us to choose who comes into our home to live with us, and who is kept out. Immigration is a long American tradition, and it can be a benefit to our society and our economy, but not if it is unregulated. Many of us had ancestors that passed through Ellis Island. This was not just a rest stop on the way to the next exit. Ellis Island was an immigrant screening center. America has always retained the right to screen entrants, separate the bad from the good, and deport those deemed harmful. Uncontrolled immigration is ludicrous. A nation without the most basic power of all — the power to defend its own border — invites lawlessness and disaster, especially after September 11th.

    Controlling who may enter our country is not optional. It must be done, and it is a bargain at just 0.34% of our income, a measly $41 billion. Either the Center for American Progress is really frugal, or else it has ulterior motives in judging the expenditure of these funds as “unrealistic”.

    Since a Center for American Progress report on Medicaid funding, issued concurrently with the study of deportation costs, was entitled Medicaid: Give it another 40, I have to assume they are not especially frugal. Were it to never receive even a single increase over the next 40 years, Medicaid alone will cost the Federal Government $10,000 billion during that time span ($250 billion per year). And the message of the report was summed up in one sentence: “We should demand that our policymakers expand Medicaid, not cut it, as part of a larger plan to provide universal health care to all people in this nation.” So, clearly, the people at the Center for American Largesse are not entirely opposed to our Government spending money.

    But now consider that the methods the Center for American Progress used to calculate the $41 billion figure are a little odd. For example, they estimate that it will cost a whopping $17,603 per apprehension to find one illegal alien. This may seem a little high to anyone who has ever been to Home Depot.

    So how was this highly scientific estimate arrived at? By assuming that the current rate of workplace enforcement represents a best effort by the Federal Government. In 2003, they note, a grand total of 445 illegal aliens were arrested at worksites in America. No, you read right, 445 total. This figure is a clear indictment of the current corrupt system, in which the field agents are under orders to enforce the law as little as possible. But the Center for American Progress takes it as an accurate predictor of the efficiency of an earnest future effort.

    The cost was then determined as: 445 worksite arrests, divided among the 90 agents involved in these arrests (yes, it apparently took 90 agents one year to find 445 illegal aliens), multiplied by an annual cost of $175,714 per agent. When inexplicably averaged with the figures from the year 1999 (240 agents arresting 2849 illegal aliens at worksites) the accuracy-minded fellows at the Center for American Progress came up with their figure of $17,603 per arrest. Perhaps the Washington Post missed the math part of the report?

    Also, I can find about 445 illegal aliens standing on one street corner in Somerville, Massachusetts each morning. Perhaps the government can just ask me where to find illegals for less than $17,603 per pop? And these guys are really easy to capture. All you have to do is pull up in a pick-up truck, yell: “FIVE DOLLARS PER HOUR!” and they hop right in back. Really, it’s not that hard.

    But again, let’s play the game and pretend the exaggerated $41 billion figure is true. Contrast that with how much deporting 10 million illegal aliens would save us in government services. According to the Center for Immigration Studies, illegal aliens cost the Federal Government a net $10 billion per year in services (including $2.5 billion stolen from Medicaid alone). After including this savings, we are now down to $31 billion cost per year to deport. At the state level, the Federation for American Immigration Reform reports that California alone spent a net $9 billion in a single year in services stolen by illegal aliens. Subtract this, and we are now down to a piddly $22 billion in cost per year to deport. 70% of illegal aliens live outside California, however, so assuming other states are defrauded at the same rate, this means they are losing, in total, $21 billion per year in services to illegal aliens. Subtracting this, we are now down to just $1 billion per year to deport.

    Now consider that every illegal worker earns money, owns property and has savings. This is evidenced by the fact that Illegal immigrants remit over $1 billion dollars per month to their home countries via wire transfers from America. Since this is all contraband earned by illegal means, it should be subject to confiscation.

    Assuming that every illegal worker has a modest car, personal property and savings of merely $5,000 total (a very conservative assumption given the wire transfer figure), this means that the 10 million criminal aliens in this country have $50 billion worth of assets subject to seizure. If taken over the five year period covered by the report from the fine folks at the Center for American Progress, this would mean that deporting illegal aliens would earn the United States a profit of $9 billion per year. And that’s enough to fund Medicare for almost two whole weeks—for those worried about Medicare funding.

  76. dolphin_Moon said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:06 pm:
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    I see the good ole boy network is alive and well in Manassas. I used to bristle over our surrounding neighbors calling us Manassholes but I think I am beginning to see why.

    Bob, I am trying to decide of you don’t grasp hyperbole, are just rude, or so ultra far right that you would have those of us who might have varying opinions goose-stepping around the flagpole.

    How about *I* stay right here and stand up to those who try to intimidate me.


    ……”It is easier to stay out than get out.”…….Mark Twain

  77. park'd said on 27 Jul 2007 at 5:07 pm:
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    Another View: Very nice piece! I am confident that deporting them all would save Americans many billions of dollars over the next decade but unfortunately agree with our liberal friends that deportation is not the answer. Only taking away their reason to be here can solve this problem. Rounding them all up and enforcing the law, however justified that may be, is not the solution. Removing the rabbit’s cabbage patch is the only real solution. That way he will move on to someone else’s field.

    Bornhere: The Japanese were more likely singled out for internment due to the fact that they sneak-attacked Pearl Harbor, there was great fear that they may have been able to attack our west coast cities, and the fact that they were the most vicious fighters that we had ever seen. Americans were terrified of them because of this. There were also many MAGIC intercepts that stated that they were trying to develop a spy ring using Japanese-Americans.

    “Imperial Japan regularly used ethnic Japanese all over Asia to collect military intelligence and support its invasions in the countries it wanted to conquer. When Japan’s highest diplomatic codes were broken by the U.S. Army Signal Intelligence Service in early 1940 they revealed that Japan was indeed using Japanese nationals and Japanese Americans to build large espionage networks in the United State just like it had in other parts of the world.” - Japanese Internment Archives

    Personally I believe the reparation was pushed through because of political correctness and our strong relationship with Japan which continues to this day and to make some sort of apology for the fact that the majority of Americans thought this was necessary at the time. There were many Americans that were wholly against this reparation act because they felt it was unjust to all of those that suffered and died during and after the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. I believe I did say the internment was not one of our proudest moments, but I do feel that it was justified and that overall it saved American lives during the war.

  78. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 6:34 pm:
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    Park’d, yes, except the notion of a pivotal role for the MAGIC intercepts is a matter of debate, but probably not one we want to get into here.

    I do agree with you that a majority of Americans *at the time* thought it was necessary. I was talking about now. That is how I read your statement:

    “Not a proud moment for the country, but I think that most people would agree was a necessary evil for national security.”

    The tense in “would agree” indicated to me that you were speaking of what “most Americans” would believe now. If I was mistaken, I’m sorry. I don’t think most now would agree, particularly if they heard a full airing of the arguments on both sides, but of course I could be wrong.

    I can see arguments against reparations, but Pearl Harbor isn’t one of them unless one thinks that Japanese American citizens committed the act. We weren’t offering reparations to Japan, but to Americans.

    I guess it is possible the mass internment saved American lives during the war, but personally I don’t think the trade off in terms of our Constitution traditions and the singling out of individuals on the basis of ancestry alone (on the individual level) was worth it. I would agree with you, however, that political considerations and correctness played into the decision to offer reparations. But I would still say it is interesting that it happened during the most conservative administrations of recent memory.

  79. Anon said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:06 pm:
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    BornHere: There were nearly 11,000 Germans, 3200 Italians etc. that were U.S. citizens rounded up in this country during WWII. There were a total of around 30,000 citizens and non citizens of European descent detained in this country. That seems like a mass round up to me. I grew up in a town that was used to house German and Italian P.O.W’s along with those who were legal citizens of this country and were thrown in there with them. The last U.S. citizen of German descent in this country was not released until 1948. A little selective amnesia to try to prove your point? My guess is that you will come up with some semantics that 30,000 is not a mass round up compared to the 120,000 Japanese that were rounded up.

  80. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:59 pm:
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    “The Japanese were more likely singled out for internment due to the fact that they sneak-attacked Pearl Harbor”
    And when you gave them the chance to defend this country they die fighting nex to you.

  81. redwhiteblue said on 27 Jul 2007 at 8:57 pm:
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    “The Japanese were more likely singled out for internment due to the fact that they sneak-attacked Pearl Harbor”
    And when you gave them the chance to defend this country they die fighting nex to you.

    TH, do you need an invitation to defend this country by joining our military?

  82. park'd said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:23 pm:
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    “The Japanese were more likely singled out for internment due to the fact that they sneak-attacked Pearl Harbor”
    And when you gave them the chance to defend this country they die fighting nex to you.

    That’s true, but only in the European theatre of combat. Any American with Japanese blood, whether mixed or full, was forbidden from fighting in the Pacific theatre.

    Anon 7:06: I knew that there were some Germans that were rounded up as well, but had no idea that there were that many. Thanks for the heads up on that historical tidbit.

  83. Anonymous said on 27 Jul 2007 at 11:23 pm:
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    Amazing how everyone is such a revisionist historian. The fact is that anyone who comes from a family that has lived in this country for decades would have no recollection of going through immigration. You popped out of your mother and from day one did not have to prove to anyone that your are an American citizen, because somewhere in your family lineage someone frontiered all that ahead of time. If for some strange reason they were told to leave because they couldn’t allow more people of your type you wouldn’t be having this conversation. I’d like to see many of you have to endure what these people have to face in order to “get it”.

    Since many parents refuse to allow their teenage kids to take jobs in fast food restaurants and want them to work at only the higher paying businesses in malls, specialty stores, etc. good luck with employers filling that void.

    “Born Here”, “Disgusted”, “Dolphin Moon” thanks for your insight. To the other opinions…it is only futile.

  84. AWCheney said on 28 Jul 2007 at 2:17 am:
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    “The fact is that anyone who comes from a family that has lived in this country for decades would have no recollection of going through immigration.”

    Is that so, Anonymous? Well, my family (meaning me, and my mother and father) came into this country through Ellis Island in 1953 (I believe they may have closed it the following year). We’ve been here for decades and have memories of going through immigration, and the naturalization process. How is it that you presume to know what people who went through this had to put up with? Are you a naturalized citizen, or at least a legal immigrant? You are, most likely, neither.

    Let me tell you what our family had to put up with. The system was designed to push the immigrant into a situation with made it far more likely that they would succeed. The process began in the home country, where the prospective immigrant had to go through the process of application including, but not limited to, volumes of paperwork, background/security checks, health department requirements (screenings, immunizations, etc.) and, most importantly, secure a sponsor who agreed to legally assume responsibility for that immigrant and his family for a period of no less than one year after arrival in the United States (this was to assure that Uncle Sam would not be put in the situation to have to take care of these new immigrants…in other words, NO DOLE). Our sponsor arranged for a job for my father before we arrived and, after we arrived, his wife helped my mother secure housecleaning jobs which brought in more money. All this enabled my parents to be able to purchase a home by themselves (not with 10 other families) within a year after we got here. It kept going uphill from there.

    There’s much more to this story, but it would probably be too upbeat for the illegal alien apologists around here. Suffice it to say, though it was not easy, my parents appreciated what this country offered them, and they worked hard to earn that “American Dream”…and they were grateful for the opportunity. If you actually read what we “went through,” you will see that the illegal aliens bear absolutely no resemblance to those of us who came here legally…assuming they did it the right way and not through “amnesty.” It’s little wonder that immigrants, by and large, resist taking public assistance of any kind…whereas the illegal aliens, by and large, come across the border with their hand out.

  85. Anonymous said on 28 Jul 2007 at 5:03 am:
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    Actually, AWCheney I am the son of a survivor from the Auschwitz/Buchenwald death camp when the boats were turned away in this wonderful US of A. Many Jews wanted to emigrate here, but of course couldn’t because quotas were already met by that time or so they said. It wasn’t enough that they survived a living nightmare. Many had to return to parts of Europe in areas that were destroyed or some made it to Israel. Nevertheless, your family made it here through a struggle and mine were lucky to exist. Many died during that journey…they turned the boats around and they were looking for this country as their hope.

  86. AWCheney said on 28 Jul 2007 at 6:59 am:
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    Anonymous, your story gives me greater understanding of your previous comment (11:23 PM). What you relate was, indeed, a dark chapter in American immigration policy and one that I hope will never be repeated. Your people should have been given preference…they earned it by the mere fact that they had survived the unsurvivable.

    There have been groups of immigrants similarly fleeing horrors in their homelands in our more recent history (the Vietnamese and Cuban boat people, for example) where that immigration policy was softened and most were able to find sanctuary here, and I believe that everyone would agree that this is a good thing. But you cannot place those millions who have flooded illegally into this country in the last few years in that same category. The vast majority of them have come here out of greed and an easy way out rather than work toward building a strong, viable society and economy in their own countries. Rather than fight the greed and corruption in their own countries so that they may leave their children a legacy in which they may take pride, they choose instead to cut and run, leaving their children a legacy of cowardice and lawlessness. There is no comparing these people to those who came, or tried to come, before. Worse, they have made it more difficult once again for our country to be able to accept those who are actually fleeing true evil in the world today (there are still many parts of the world practicing genocide).

    For myself, I don’t consider what my family went through as a struggle per se. I consider it a process that made us appreciate what my family attained, as well as the country which offered the opportunity for that attainment. It goes to the concept that one cannot truly appreciate anything that comes too easily.

  87. Mary said on 28 Jul 2007 at 9:49 am:
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    Amazing how everyone is such a revisionist historian. The fact is that anyone who comes from a family that has lived in this country for decades would have no recollection of going through immigration. You popped out of your mother and from day one did not have to prove to anyone that your are an American citizen, because somewhere in your family lineage someone frontiered all that ahead of time. If for some strange reason they were told to leave because they couldn’t allow more people of your type you wouldn’t be having this conversation. I’d like to see many of you have to endure what these people have to face in order to “get it”.


    But that’s just it. our families, the ancestors of native-born Americans, suffered in their time to provide a better future for their children — us. They didn’t suffer to provide a future for illegal aliens, especially when those illegal aliens are endangering the posterity our families fought, bled and died to create for the sake of us, their children. Are the sufferings of our families now to be in vain?

    There is no such thing as a “human right” to be an American. You seem to think there is. We are already more generous than any other society on earth in our intake of LEGAL immigrants. Yet we receive no credit for our generousity, but slaps in the face because we don’t want to take in even more, more, more.

  88. dolphin_Moon said on 28 Jul 2007 at 10:42 am:
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    I enjoyed your story of immigration. That is neat. I have none of my own since my mother’s family came long ago, probably before there were immigration laws. My dad’s side probably came here to avoid starvation in Ireland but I don’t know the details.

    One of my best friends is from Miami. She doesn’t tell such a great tale about Cuban immigrants. In fact, she cannot stand them. She lived there during the mass exodus from Cuba.

    I am not ready to say that the hispanic immigration of the past decade is predicated on greed. Corruption and near starvation seem pretty strong incentives to pack up and leave your culture. I don’t think we can fault people who want a better way of life. I didn’t form this opinion from a history book or the news, but from talking with hispanics. My job involved rubbing elbows with many from various places in Mexico and Central America.

    I think the same argument could be made that the Vietnamese and Cubans should have overthrown their governments. Many of our new arrivals are rural people with limited edcuation. I am not real sure how they would go about overthrowing their corrupt governments. Most were the underclass there also. Underclass here just fares a lot better than underclass in Central America and Mexico.

    I guess my real point is that I blame our government for the current situation rather than the people who only want a better life. There are all sorts of little known deals floating about that encourage illegal immigration.

    Those countries will never be real democracies until they acquire a real middle class.


  89. BornHere said on 28 Jul 2007 at 2:10 pm:
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    # Anon said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:06 pm:

    BornHere: There were nearly 11,000 Germans, 3200 Italians etc. that were U.S. citizens rounded up in this country during WWII. There were a total of around 30,000 citizens and non citizens of European descent detained in this country

    (snip to not paste too much)

    A little selective amnesia to try to prove your point? My guess is that you will come up with some semantics that 30,000 is not a mass round up compared to the 120,000 Japanese that were rounded up.”

    No selective amnesia, no. I know about that much lower number of detentions, in fact I know a lot about the POW camps, which are a separate issue with some interesting wrinkles. In the case of the detentions of US *citizens* of German, Italian, and other descents, you appear to be practicing a bit of selective amnesia yourself, or perhaps a sin of omission. It isn’t an issue of numbers, although their numbers were dramatically smaller. It is an issue of specificity. We know that almost all the Japanese Americans who placed in internment camps were not placed there out of any sense of any given individual’s or family’s actions or sympathies. They were rounded up en masse in a particular region, complete families included, regardless of any individual suspicion as a potential or actual subversive. Are you actually saying (for a moment accepting all your numbers as given) that the detention of U.S. citizens of German and Italian descent involved rounding up all or even most German- and Italian-Americans in a given area, entire families, and moving them into camps? If you are and you can prove it, then the situation you describe is analogous.

    Except, oops!, that didn’t happen. In the Japanese American case, except for those who relocated themselves to another part of the country, the government made a concentrated well-planned effort to EMPTY a region of the entire West Coast of Japanese Americans. To be analogous to your example of Germans and Italians, it would have to be a tactic such as trying to remove every German- and Italian-American of any age that you could find from the states, say, of New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania, or you name the place. I chose those because they are all coastal and all had large populations of those groups.

    I don’t doubt there were abuses in the treatment of U.S. citizen detainees of German and Italian descent, who were an extremely tiny proportion of people of those two ethnic backgrounds in this country. That’s the difference. There was no attempt to round up German-Americans and Italian-Americans en masse across an entire region so that not a single person of that background would be left. Or are you saying there was? And if you are, please get in a room with AC immediately. It’s really nasty out there.

    Here is a quote from the administrator of the Japanese internment program. It does well to repeat again that even orphaned infants of Japanese descent were detained, as well as other children, and that a one-drop rule was in effect.

    “Lieutenant General John L. DeWitt, who administered the internment program, repeatedly told newspapers that “A Jap’s a Jap” and testified to Congress, “I don’t want any of them [persons of Japanese ancestry] here. They are a dangerous element. There is no way to determine their loyalty… It makes no difference whether he is an American citizen, he is still a Japanese. American citizenship does not necessarily determine loyalty… But we must worry about the Japanese all the time until he is wiped off the map.”

  90. Anon said on 28 Jul 2007 at 4:47 pm:
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    Born again said:

    ‘ Are you actually saying (for a moment accepting all your numbers as given) that the detention of U.S. citizens of German and Italian descent involved rounding up all or even most German- and Italian-Americans in a given area, entire families, and moving them into camps? If you are and you can prove it, then the situation you describe is analogous.

    Except, oops!, that didn’t happen. In the Japanese American case, except for those who relocated themselves to another part of the country, the government made a concentrated well-planned effort to EMPTY a region of the entire West Coast of Japanese Americans. To be analogous to your example of Germans and Italians, it would have to be a tactic such as trying to remove every German- and Italian-American of any age that you could find from the states, say, of New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania, or you name the place. I chose those because they are all coastal and all had large populations of those groups.’

    Trying to change the rules of the game again? You said specifically that there were no mass round ups of Europeans in this country during WWII. I simply pointed out that you are WRONG (that degree in history I have is good for something I guess). Way to go to try to nitpick differences that I did not even bring up (nowhere did I mention any of the tripe that you are spilling out) and try to diminish the plight of the FAMILIES (and there were complete families rounded up) that were interred from all over the country because they might be axis sympathizers. You continue to amaze me with your ability to try to get a conversation off track with your smoke and mirrors routine. You absolutely ignore core issues and use fluff to try to win your argument. Someone tells you their point of view with substance
    and you trivialize nuances in text and try to call yourself a victor. That is the sign of someone who can’t argue the issues because you have no case, and outside of Al Sharpton you are the best at it I have seen in a while, and that is not a compliment.

  91. BornHere said on 28 Jul 2007 at 5:43 pm:
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    Anon, and why is it you don’t choose a name considering there are so many Anons and some are so different from you. Are you afraid to choose a name? Are you someone else here already who posts under another name? I sense that. Anyway….

    “Mass roundup” is what I described in my reply to you or some other Anon, who knows. Mass as in taking all of the Japanese Americans out of a given area to empty that area of ANY Japanese Americans without any consideration for probable cause of subversive behavior. I meant mass as a word modifying round up, it was a concerted action against the entire mass of Japanese Americans in a given area. Nothing like that happened to German-Americans or Italian Americans. Nothing was concentrated, nothing was done in that manner, although I am sure they were not always careful about who they chose to act against on an individual basis.

    Do you realize Mr. Extraordinarily Courageous at insulting people Anon, what the potential would have been for a mass round up of German- and Italian-American U.S. citizens if they had done the kind of mass round up they did of Japanese Americans? Do you realize the numbers that would have been involved if they even restricted themselves to German-Americans or Italian-Americans of the first or second generation? But that never happened. In my post I even used the term EN MASSE to make it crystal clear what I meant, for example when I said:

    “There was no attempt to round up German-Americans and Italian-Americans en masse across an entire region so that not a single person of that background would be left.”

    So again, I don’t dispute (as I already said) that a lot of German-Americans and Italian-Americans were detained. It was something I already knew about. However there was no operation for those groups remotely similar in character, scope, planning, and *most crucially* blanket coverage of an entire region’s population. That occurred with the Japanese.

    A Freudian would have a field day with you since you project onto me the very thing you are guilty of. My use of terms like en masse, emptying a region, etc. would make it clear to anyone what I meant, but you are the one choosing not to read words for their meaning. If you have, based on your history degree, some example of a roundup EN MASSE from an ENTIRE geographical region of every U.S. citizen of German- or Italian- extraction in that given region in order to EMPTY that region of anyone of that nationality, regardless of suspicion of subversion, then please give me the citation as you were so well taught in your major.

    *One* reason that the Japanese internment is as historically significant as it is has been has do with its particular characteristics, planning, massive scope, regional concentration, etc. and the blanket targeting of an entire population on the basis of ancestry alone. It even reached the Supreme Court at the time as an issue more than once. And no, I am not saying there were no subversives held among the innocents in the Japanese camps, but the administrator of internment I quoted and countless other quotes makes it quite clear that for the bulk of the Japanese-American population, that was beside the point.

    Finally, I’m not born again, sorry to disappoint you. But then I guess a person too frightened at the smallest bit of accountability for even a made-up name needs to resort to insult, like mangling others’ names, making silly comparisons, using inflammatory language, etc. etc. instead of actually discussing something in a calm and civil manner.

  92. dolphin_Moon said on 28 Jul 2007 at 8:05 pm:
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    Born Here,

    I love your new nome de plume, ‘Born Again!’ The irony does not escape me.


    ……”I cannot call to mind a single instance where I have ever been irreverent, except toward the things which were sacred to other people.”
    ….Mark Twain………..

  93. BornHere said on 28 Jul 2007 at 9:47 pm:
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    Well Dolph, it was thrust upon me by folks who must resort to namecalling and insults in lieu of argument. That, or they are secretly all 12 years old and don’t actually own the homes they are always talking about being devalued. Go figure.

  94. BornHere said on 28 Jul 2007 at 9:53 pm:
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    PS: I only picked “BornHere” as my nome de plume or possibly nome de guerre because I found on other forums on this issue, people love to accuse you of somehow not loving America or without the right to be here, plus it seemed humorous in the context. Naturally, using the name here hasn’t stopped anyone from using rhetoric of exclusion toward a fellow citizen that they should be ashamed of. Plus c,a change, plus c’est la meme chose.

  95. Anon said on 28 Jul 2007 at 10:12 pm:
    Flag comment

    Ahhhh, lets break this meaningless diatribe down a little:

    Anon, and why is it you don’t choose a name considering there are so many Anons and some are so different from you. Are you afraid to choose a name? Are you someone else here already who posts under another name? I sense that. Anyway….

    Funny, I am sure that your birth certificate does not say “BornHere” on it. Suddenly an “anonymous” internet handle makes your postings mean any more than someone else’s? Looks to me that “Anon” is just as good (and ambiguous) as “BornHere”, and as I don’t see you posting your real identity here the point is moot.

    ____________________________________________________________“Mass roundup” is what I described in my reply to you or some other Anon, who knows. Mass as in taking all of the Japanese Americans out of a given area to empty that area of ANY Japanese Americans without any consideration for probable cause of subversive behavior. I meant mass as a word modifying round up, it was a concerted action against the entire mass of Japanese Americans in a given area. Nothing like that happened to German-Americans or Italian Americans. Nothing was concentrated, nothing was done in that manner, although I am sure they were not always careful about who they chose to act against on an individual basis.


    Again you try to change things to fit to your advantage and fail miserably. There were some 20,000 Japanese American citizens that took up arms against the United States in WWII. Quite a few of the interred people had relatives both here and in Japan who fought who fought against us, they had a great amount of “probable cause” as you say to suspect a greater uprising. Japanese Americans were removed from the west coast because of the real fear that there was going to be an invasion. February 23, 1942 was the date that the Japanese shelled an oil facility near Santa Barbara. Though damage was minor, in that climate it precipitated a fear of what 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry would do in an invasion. Lets not forget the shelling of British Columbia (light damage to a lighthouse) or the shelling of Ft. Stevens Oregon (again, light damage). Of course that small invasion of the Aleutian islands
    probably does not count in your mind either as I can tell.
    But hey, at least these people were citizens and for the most part law abiding citizens. All illegal aliens are criminals in one way or another,those with forged documents more so and those with gang affiliation even more so. You forget that little point when you go on your long winded meaningless speeches on here.

    Do you realize Mr. Extraordinarily Courageous at insulting people Anon, what the potential would have been for a mass round up of German- and Italian-American U.S. citizens if they had done the kind of mass round up they did of Japanese Americans? Do you realize the numbers that would have been involved if they even restricted themselves to German-Americans or Italian-Americans of the first or second generation? But that never happened. In my post I even used the term EN MASSE to make it crystal clear what I meant, for example when I said:

    “There was no attempt to round up German-Americans and Italian-Americans en masse across an entire region so that not a single person of that background would be left.”


    This one is fun. Shall we begin? Like any ultra liberal you specialize in double talk of the greatest order. The insults have been flung by you in subtle and not so subtle ways in this thread. Mrs pot, met kettle. The great thing about this blog is that you and I can not edit our posts after the fact. You have tried and tried to change the fact that you said this exact statement earlier:

    “Even back then there were accusations of racism in the fact that there was no *mass* round up of citizens of German heritage, for example, despite the fact that sympathies for the German enemy and potential espionage also existed in that community.”

    You stated that there was no mass roundup of Germans and were proven wrong unto which you continue to backtrack and claim one different stance after another. You sound like Bill Clinton who challenged the definition of a lie, to stretch it so much that his definition of it no longer fit his actions. Liberals of a feather lie together.


    A Freudian would have a field day with you since you project onto me the very thing you are guilty of. My use of terms like en masse, emptying a region, etc. would make it clear to anyone what I meant, but you are the one choosing not to read words for their meaning. If you have, based on your history degree, some example of a roundup EN MASSE from an ENTIRE geographical region of every U.S. citizen of German- or Italian- extraction in that given region in order to EMPTY that region of anyone of that nationality, regardless of suspicion of subversion, then please give me the citation as you were so well taught in your major.

    There we go with the revisionism again. Freud might have an issue with the compulsive “lie at all cost” attitude you have displayed, but of course Freud might compare your large long winded diatribe to penis size (or in your case “envy”—-his words not mine since you brought his name up) so that point is moot as well. You have all through this thread taken what others have obviously meant and tried to stretch that into other things. Now you make a whining statement that the same is being done to you, and the hilarity of it has made my night. Try as you might to go away from the core subjects, your long windedness has done you in, the meandering lines have caved in on themselves and double talk abounds.


    *One* reason that the Japanese internment is as historically significant as it is has been has do with its particular characteristics, planning, massive scope, regional concentration, etc. and the blanket targeting of an entire population on the basis of ancestry alone. It even reached the Supreme Court at the time as an issue more than once. And no, I am not saying there were no subversives held among the innocents in the Japanese camps, but the administrator of internment I quoted and countless other quotes makes it quite clear that for the bulk of the Japanese-American population, that was beside the point.


    And yet this has nothing to do with illegal immigration as I stated before. Apples and oranges, and a very weak example to make an even weaker point. Wait, you do have some point in all of that clutter, don’t you? With all of the convoluted double talk it is really hard to tell.

    Finally, I’m not born again, sorry to disappoint you. But then I guess a person too frightened at the smallest bit of accountability for even a made-up name needs to resort to insult, like mangling others’ names, making silly comparisons, using inflammatory language, etc. etc. instead of actually discussing something in a calm and civil manner.


    Ahhhh, the insults that you complained about earlier against you have come up and you felt the need in your fragile psyche to sling back some arrows. Thanks for not disappointing me. But then again as I said earlier, BornAgain is not your real name and it is quite safe for you to hide behind the keyboard knowing that you are at a website that caters to people with different views than you. So who is the coward here?

    As far as the last of your statements, you described yourself rather accurately. Freud also talked of transference and you practice it magnificently, so kudos to you and your double talk, backpedaling and obnoxious self. Thank you for providing me with my entertainment for the night.

  96. Anon said on 28 Jul 2007 at 10:17 pm:
    Flag comment

    And you can have at it to your heart content, I have vacation starting tomorrow morning and will not be here to respond, so have at it.

  97. Mary said on 28 Jul 2007 at 10:32 pm:
    Flag comment

    That, or they are secretly all 12 years old and don’t actually own the homes they are always talking about being devalued. Go figure.

    I thought you were in favor of “civil” discourse? Obviously you want us to be civil — but you don’t apply the same standards of behavior to yourself.

    Alas alas o scribes and pharisees, hypocrites to a man.

  98. BornHere said on 29 Jul 2007 at 1:35 am:
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    Have a fun vacation P.

  99. Scott said on 29 Jul 2007 at 1:42 am:
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    Craziness in here.

  100. Anonymous said on 29 Jul 2007 at 2:03 am:
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    Born Here: I saw first hand one of the very detainment areas you referred to. In the mid 1980’s I was stationed at March Air Force Base in Southern California near Riverside. Since then, the Base has been deactivated and is now an Air Force museum of sorts. My squadron was part of the 15th Air Force Strategic Air Command. All that was left were the foundations to the buildings where our military held American citizens of Japanese decent. Granted it was during WWII and there was enormous distrust toward them since it was a scary time. I was told that they left the the foundations as a landmark of remembrance. It always seemed odd and erie to pass through there, since it was deserted. It was also left out of respect for the action of that event in our history; a monument to remind us of how far we can fall…

  101. TH said on 29 Jul 2007 at 8:17 pm:
    Flag comment

    I am to old to defend this country by going to Iraq but believe I wouldn’t hesiatete to do it. I owe this country my education (courtesy of the Fulbright program), career, and much more.
    There are about 44,000 foreing born defending the country now. Alfred Rascon, medal of honor in Vietnam, was not a citizen when he defended this country. I won’t go as far as saying that you need to give this chance to illegal aliens because people will kill me here. I have to say though that a lot of them would volunteer.

  102. Jill Gershen said on 30 Jul 2007 at 4:25 pm:
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    I just want to say that I am so impressed with, and so proud of, the people of Manassas and Prince William County. I have been a Montgomery County resident since 1965 and I am utterly revolted and infuriated that my county and state have become sanctuaries for anti-American lawbreakers. I have been making phone calls and sending faxes and emails to my county, state and federal reps for months. NOBODY is listening to me. NOBODY gives a damn about preserving our American culture and the rule of law. So, I am living vicariously through Prince William county and Manassas, Virginia. And if surrounding jurisdictions make it so uncomfortable for illegals to live there, that they move to my county, so be it. Maybe when the illegal population here grows to intolerable levels, my county exec., county council and state reps will finally feel compelled to do something about it. You guys rock!

  103. Greg L said on 30 Jul 2007 at 4:51 pm:
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    Jill, you might want to check out Help Save Maryland at http://www.helpsavemaryland.com

  104. Anonomous said on 30 Jul 2007 at 11:18 pm:
    Flag comment

    I think that the first step that we should make is to better protect the border, i’d hate to say it but if comes down to it we might have to put up some electrical fences and have frequent patrols along the fence to make sure they havent figured yet another way around the fence thing. I wouldnt be happy to see the electrical fence come into effect but could anything else keep them from jumping the border???

  105. manassascityresident said on 30 Jul 2007 at 11:21 pm:
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    A few snipers might do well - a couple of warning shots first, of course…

  106. Anonomous said on 30 Jul 2007 at 11:22 pm:
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    lol, but of course, we first need to find a way to KEEP THEM OUT, then find a way, but because of the damn government we probubly wont, get the illegals out of this country

  107. Anonomous said on 30 Jul 2007 at 11:26 pm:
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    it might be amusing if the government hired so called “mercenaries” to help keep the border controled, nothing real dangerous but, ive heard that the paintball gun that is a sniper hurts kinda bad, and i saw on future weapons a vehicle that doesnt hurt you but makes it unbearable to stay in that spot. It would be expensive but it would be extremely effective on keeping those roaches in their OWN country

  108. manassascityresident said on 30 Jul 2007 at 11:33 pm:
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    Unfortunately, I think it’s going to take something as drastic as that to KEEP THEM OUT. We just need to start using the guns there now and quit fooling around. We need to give the minutemen more power. Give them all guns. I’m afraid that’s what it will take to stop them and then, and only then, will they take us seriously.

  109. Anonomous said on 30 Jul 2007 at 11:39 pm:
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    well you do realize, that, with all of our troops over in Iraq, another thing that i want to change, there are sooo many illegals here that they could probubly overun us in a heartbeat, take Manassas for example our population is somewhere around 800,000 and I bet you that at least half of that are illegal immigrants. where i live u cant go down the street 10 feet without seeing a illegal house filled with an “Extended” Hispanic Family. Also i dont know if anybody else sees them but there are now Hispanics driving little carts that sell ice cream. I dont know if its a business or something but….

  110. TTM said on 31 Jul 2007 at 10:17 am:
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    Concerned citizens, Angered legal immigrants, Parents, sons, daughters….. It seems the time has come for our generation to decide what is right for our country. Origins of a move for less immigrants, legal or not, have been a problem of the citizens of this great country for hundreds of years. Our government has almost always turned a blind eye in means to increase GDP, by allowing low wage workers in our country and even closer in our community.
    I sense these arguments will reach a flash point and something horrible is bound to happen. We must stay strong in our attitudes toward illegals. Businesses that hire illegals should be put out of business one way or another. Time shows that the norm in past situations is that the migrating force is so large and over bearing the then present time populous is over run and eventually leaves an area for “greener pastures” We can not allow this. Virginians are strong people with years of toil and blood on their hands for this land we call ours. Real Virginians will try everything in their power to stop this. As a whole, I believe in this day and age people are more concerned about being racist and politically correct rather than honest. I’m done with being p.c. and antiracist. I live in an apartment complex swarming with illegals. I have come to be able to recognize them instantly. My government says it’s illegal for me to ask them if they are a citizen, I DO IT ANYWAY. I wish Help Save Manassas, would make more of an offensive approach against illegals in our community such as: manually blocking pregnant women from having children in our hospitals (on our tax dollar), manually blocking the use of social structures such as government service buildings, parks and all other areas of interest. Organizing protest that stop traffic, be up front and find out who is illegal. If they are place them under Citizens arrest and truck them to the ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement.) and force the federal government to deport people in a quick fashion, (just like the speed that they are willing to pull you into court to defend yourself.) by setting up citizen made prison camps for illegals. I believe this is just the beginning for the VA good ‘ole boys haven’t even been tested yet. When and if that time comes I feel sorry for anyone who stands against them. They will not accept an anchor baby as a reason or a legitimate right to stay here. They will FORCE all people not wanted out. That is what the forefathers of the constitution gave us right to do. PROTECT IT, BY ANY MEANS NECESSARRY. If you choose not to, you are weak and you should leave also. Please citizens of these great United States, do something about this. If you do nothing, your children will be forced to know Spanish. Sad. Absolutely

  111. AWCheney said on 31 Jul 2007 at 2:38 pm:
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    It really is pointless to deport massive numbers of illegal aliens until such time as the border stops becoming a revolving door. As it is now, deportation is little more than an inconvenience for them, particularly since they are going home to those millions (or is it billions?) of US dollars that they’ve sent back to their point of origin and can more easily finance their next jaunt across the border. The best that we can hope to do until that is accomplished is enforce local ordinances and laws forbidding services to illegal aliens, close down their employment sources and hope that they move on to greener pastures.

  112. Proud Latina said on 31 Jul 2007 at 4:22 pm:
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    It just discusses me how stupid you all sound. Like one person said “they are stealing our jobs”. Who the fuck stole your jobs. “They are getting the jobs of Americans”, first of all we live in the continent of America and even if you hate it the illegal aliens are also Americans. If the “Americans” do not want that the illegal alien’s take their jobs, then get off your lazy butts and look for a job and stop blaming your insignificant lives on illegal aliens. I am not an illegal, I was born in Texas, but my roots are Mexican. You all are just putting bad things that illegal do, come on people open your eyes you guys are not little kids anymore. If it wasn’t for illegal aliens this country would not be how it is now. Your lazy ass butts would not want to work the lands, clean your dirty houses or do any job that requires any type of physical activity. Keep on writing your silly comments this would only show how little you are. I always say what goes around comes around.

  113. manassascityresident said on 31 Jul 2007 at 5:19 pm:
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    You have nothing to be proud of Latino -
    Watch your language - or go away.
    Your post shows just how ignorant you are….you just don’t get it - you and your Latino friends did not make this country what it is today.
    You should not lump all Americans together - I CLEAN MY OWN HOUSE, MOW MY OWN LAWN, WASH MY OWN CAR -
    AND PAY TAXES! Get it goofball?

  114. manassascityresident said on 31 Jul 2007 at 5:29 pm:
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    What’s wrong PL? Realize just how stupid you sound? Run away?

  115. AWCheney said on 31 Jul 2007 at 7:51 pm:
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    As a continuation of my previous comment, and in honor of “Proud Latina’s” post…

    Then, after the “revolving door” border is closed…deport every single one of the illegals!

  116. mexican said on 31 Jul 2007 at 9:06 pm:
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  117. manassascityresident said on 1 Aug 2007 at 12:54 am:
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    Mexican -
    I thought your name was “Proud Latino”.
    Or are you someone different now? I thought you said you were legal? So now you write “even if you deport all illegals WE are still Americans”….. So now you claim to be illegal. Caught you! If you are illegal, you are a criminal and you need to GO!

    Please tell me what YOU personally have contributed to America.

    And please make up your mind - is your name Mexican, or are you Proud Latino? Are you legal or are you illegal?

    And, once again, NO you and your illegal friends have NOT made this country what it is today. You’ve only managed to steal, lie, and cheat your way here - now it’s time for you to go back home and fight your battles there!

  118. John Pederson said on 1 Aug 2007 at 3:40 am:
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    manassascityresident: The frustration of wanting to make a point at any cost. This country was founded and built by immigrants. Yes, they came over by ocean and entered “legally” which means they were documented. Some slipped through and even many have been living for decades as migrant farm workers in the fields and orchards around the country… more than the past 20 years , say back in the 1950’s & 60’s. Anytime someone can do something for alot less, someone will hire them. Sadly, alot of the major corporations outsource to jobs outside our country. Again, why? Because they can hire off American soil to people who are not American citizens and save themselves bundles. Just call any IT support representative and you will find them from India, Phillipines and other countries around the world…very few in the US. Same distinction when you walk into most fast food restaurants. The owners only care about making profit so they outsource to people who have less means and can be easily manipulated, exploited and not mastering the language have very limited opportunities. Everytime you take opportunity to insult these people your ancestors may have faced some of the same challenges somewhere somepalce in time. Just look carefully in the mirror.

  119. Proud Latina said on 1 Aug 2007 at 8:26 am:
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    First of all I am a female and when I said that we would still be Americans is because even if I was born here I am still mexican. I am still the same person I just can’t log in as my Proud Latina name. Some how it did not let me. I can not belive that people are the way you are it just gets me sick to my stomach. The illegals do not come to this country to steal or cheat. They come here to work for a better future for their families, becuase in their countries there is nothing. unfortunately there is people like you here. They do pay taxes too and guess what I work for an attorney in your city and we get a lot of your american people who do not pay taxes. It is incredible how many come in. Please do not get your mouth full when you say “they take money out of my pocket”, because they are not. Instead of worrying about the illegal aliens just go and take a cold shower. I would never be able to make you understand because you never had to go through what they went. Also, if you are going to Criticize someone, do not be scared to take the heat when someone else tells you what they think.

  120. manassascityresident said on 1 Aug 2007 at 10:25 am:
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    Proud Latino:
    Go back and read your post on 31 July 4:22 and tell me how YOU would have reacted to reading that foul, angry, and hateful post.
    You like to dish it out - but you are the one who cannot take the heat. Don’t criticize someone for doing something when you are doing the exact same thing, only with foul language as well. YOU need to look in the mirror!

  121. Proud Latina said on 1 Aug 2007 at 11:34 am:
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    The same thing. how? It just gets me so upset that you guys are blaming everything on the illegal aliens. Please understand, no one is her to take away your jobs, to commite crime, or much less steal from a country that has helped them grow. I know that they have commited a crime by coming to this country the wrong way, but they should not be treated like animals. They are humans. This would be my last post, I bet you are happy, right. My point was not to make everyone mad, but just to make them realize what they are doing. I just hope that you all can sleep good at night. Please do not judge one bad one for all. One last thing, how many times do I have to tell you I am a FEMALE.

  122. manassascityresident said on 1 Aug 2007 at 12:02 pm:
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    Latino -
    I never referred to you as male or female - so what’s your point….?

  123. Proud Latina said on 1 Aug 2007 at 12:57 pm:
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  124. manassascityresident said on 1 Aug 2007 at 1:01 pm:
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    Didn’t know I had to know Spanish to have a discussion on this blog. Perfect example of having to “bend” to the Latino community….I could correct many of your English language errors, but I won’t stoop.

  125. Proud Latina said on 1 Aug 2007 at 2:19 pm:
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    Is not a matter of you speaking Spanish, is a matter of you learning to read. You won’t stoop to my level, please you are way below. Another thing, what are YOU “bending” for the Latino Community? What have we taken away from YOU? What exactly have illegals done to you, not to “your” country, but to you that has made you so angry. I can tell that your life is Miserable , but I do not see the point of making everybody’s life the same as yours.

  126. manassascityresident said on 1 Aug 2007 at 2:41 pm:
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    PL -

    You expected me to be able to distinguish between Latina and Latino - as if I ever care to learn Spanish…not.

    You sling words like “angry” around - but have you gone back to read your posts? Anyone reading your posts and then mine, would absolutely, detect that you are an extremely angry person, and that you are a racist against whites, and all Americans. If you don’t like Americans or this country, then why are you here?

    The illegals in my community have ruined what used to be some of the greatest neighborhoods in town - including mine. They have not taken any pride in their homes and park their many cars in the lawns, and in the street. The illegals have dumbed down my son’s school in an effort to accomodate the non-English speaking kids (most of whom are Hispanic). The illegals have pretty much caused all of the overcrowding we have in Virginia.

    Now, I ask you again, because you never answered my question in a previous post, what have YOU personally contributed to this country?
    Take your time.

  127. AWCheney said on 1 Aug 2007 at 3:14 pm:
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    “What exactly have illegals done to you, not to “your” country, but to you that has made you so angry.”

    Although you were not speaking to me directly Proud Latina, you were actually addressing that question to all US citizens and legal immigrants who are fed up with this situation, so I’m going to give you MY answer. When you adversely affect my country, you adversely affect ME. What you do to my neighbors, you do to ME. That is what it means to be part of a community, which is what most of your compadres resist. If you are not able to understand that, you really have no business being in that community either.

  128. Proud Latina said on 1 Aug 2007 at 3:40 pm:
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  129. manassascityresident said on 1 Aug 2007 at 3:58 pm:
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    I never gave the impression I was better than you or anyone else. I am simply against people who break the law - so sue me for not wanting criminals (illegals) in my country.
    So why do you hate ME then? Don’t I have the right to feel the way I do? What did I EVER say that led you to believe that I was better than you?
    You are just angry - at who? Me? Go back to your first post in which you were downright nasty and foul - and then read all of mine - and you tell me who sounded “superior” - you did - you think YOU are better than everyone else.
    We all have jobs (if we’re lucky) so what’s your beef? You told me everything you have not TAKEN from the country (gee, I feel so lucky) but you have not told me one thing you have contributed. Oh, I know, supporting illegal aliens is your contribution to your latino heritige. Nuff said.

  130. AWCheney said on 1 Aug 2007 at 4:08 pm:
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    Proud Latina, you must understand that this has nothing to do with legal immigrants. Many, if not most, are just as disturbed about the affect on our community and country as the citizens are. This issue is about people who DO NOT “have a respectful job,” and DO NOT “pay taxes,” and HAVE “been in trouble.” This is about people who have no respect for the country that they have invaded and, as a result, have made THEMSELVES unwanted by their actions. This is about people who have come here only to take without feeling any obligation to give back and, in fact, express hatred for that country and the very people from whom they have taken so freely when those people so much as say, “that is enough!” This is about people who feel that they are above the laws that govern the rest of us, and actually threaten us when we dare to express our resentment. This is about the people who demand the rights of citizens, yet cry RACIST, BIGOT, and worse when those citizens exercise those rights themselves. I could go on and on, but I think you get my point.

    Before you condemn this movement which only wants to enforce our laws, advocate for LEGAL immigrants (that’s what Immigration Reform is all about), and take back our country, which has generously embraced you and me (less, I am a Naturalized Citizen who was once a legal immigrant), perhaps you should consider who the villains of this situation really are.

  131. AWCheney said on 1 Aug 2007 at 4:10 pm:
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    Correction: YES, I am a Naturalized Citizen

  132. Proud Latina said on 1 Aug 2007 at 4:24 pm:
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    I do not hate you or anyone. I might not have buit a hospital, school or anything. But what makes me sleep at night is knowing that I know that everyone is human and they deserve respect. I know like I mentioned before they came here illegally. If you want to deport then go ahead, but do it in a more human way. I read a lot of post saying where they can find them and how to catch them. They are not game people. Another thing is stop blaming everything on them. And yes I am proud of my heritage and my family. If you are against people breaking the law then go after the killers, the drug addicts, the drunks and the rapist. Do not be wasting your time in this when there is thousands of people being killed in our street and let me tell you, more than 90% of those criminals are not illegals. You did give the impression that you were better. You are basically saying that no one deserves to be in this country if they are not americans.

  133. Proud Latina said on 1 Aug 2007 at 4:31 pm:
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    AWCHENEY. I do agree with you in that point. The only thing that makes me upset is that you are juding everyone the same. The majority of illegals come here to work not to hurt anyone. Tell me why would they destroy a country that they want to be in. The USA for then is a light in the tunnel. I do not know where you are from but in MEXICO, it is bad. I wish I could take you guys and see how it is to live out there. Don’t you think if they could find work there they would say. Some people live their families behind to try to find a better life for them. That is how much they love them. If anyone want me to take them to Mexico and show them how bad they live let me know. And after you see that then let me know what you think. Would any of you live like that. People are just trying to progress.

  134. AWCheney said on 1 Aug 2007 at 4:56 pm:
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    Do some research, Proud Latina…follow some of the links provided on this site and read about the people and situations that have fomented this anger, and then perhaps you will understand. Google “illegal aliens” yourself and find some links on your own. Some of these sites are actually done by LEGAL Hispanic immigrants who are equally disturbed by this modern “invasion.” You might be shocked by what you learn.

  135. manassascityresident said on 1 Aug 2007 at 5:27 pm:
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    PL -
    I have a question. Why don’t the Mexicans try to improve their own country? Or any illegal alien for that matter? If life there is so bad - then why don’t they try to change the land they love?

    They have definitely learned how to scam the American system, so why don’t they try the same in their country? Why aren’t the pro-illegal organizations in this country trying to help the Hispanics change the “rule of the land” in Mexico?

  136. AWCheney said on 1 Aug 2007 at 9:24 pm:
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    “The only thing that makes me upset is that you are judging everyone the same.”

    …and what are you doing? You don’t know me, and you obviously haven’t read the rest of my comments and those on other threads.

  137. Proud Latina said on 1 Aug 2007 at 10:21 pm:
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    One thing that is very odd about this site. Is about how much you hate the immigrants, yet your site has a chinease symbol and it is called Bruce Li. Odd, right. Another thing I do not want to know you Mr. AWCheney, people like you make me sick and it will be a waste of my time. You that gets your mouth full by saying that you are a Naturalized Citizen, you should better than that. I was reading a post that a sicko posted saying that he would even block the entrance of the hospitals for pregnant women. This is who the villan is Mr. Cheney. This is who you need to be concerned that walks on the streets. Sick people like this are the once that are suppose to be behind bars. Or another saying that he is ready to get arms. Look inside your conscience and really ask yourself. Would I pefer to see an illegal alien that comes to this country to work or a sicko who perfers to kill inocent children. Let me know. And please do not come back with an ass remark saying that the illegals are the children killer, read your friends posts before you say that.

  138. manassascityresident said on 1 Aug 2007 at 10:45 pm:
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    AWC -
    I will leave you to “try” to explain to PL that this debate is about ILLEGAL aliens ….she still thinks we hate immigrants, and has missed the point TOTALLY.
    You have more patience than I - so good luck - I’m out of here, vacation to Colorado where Congressman Tancredo has the balls to not let the illegals run his state!
    Tancredo for President!
    Again, good luck.

  139. AWCheney said on 1 Aug 2007 at 11:29 pm:
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    I don’t believe that it’s possible MCR…there is far too little comprehension of the English language at play with Ms. Latina. Perhaps she should get her husband to translate so that she may acquire an adequate understanding of everything that has been said here…not only those things she picks and chooses. Anything can look bad, taken out of context.

    Ms. Latina, I am indeed a Naturalized Citizen but, thanks to my Naturalized parents, I was fluently bilingual by the age of three. I had a better grasp of the English language at that age than apparently you have at yours, and still remained fluent in my native tongue, sufficiently to be able to translate better than our assigned translators for my fellow members on various delegations to conferences overseas. The difference is I/my family happens to be one of the “old guard” of legal immigrants that prepared/were prepared for our immigration to this country by becoming at least partially adept at the language before we came. Then again, perhaps you did not come here legally but found one of the “shortcuts”…like the previous amnesty, for instance. Aside from all this, ALL of the discussion revolves around dealing with the ILLEGAL ALIEN problem (and it is a problem) and has nothing to do with legal immigrants, other than trying to work out a reform program, making it easier for them to come here legally (once we can make the physical and economic space for them, however). If you do not care to deal with the reality of the situation, that’s fine. The reality will come home to roost on your doorstep soon enough.

  140. John Pederson said on 2 Aug 2007 at 12:59 am:
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    Let’s all calm down, take some deep breaths and ask the Native American who the real immigrants are?

  141. AWCheney said on 2 Aug 2007 at 8:45 am:
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    You seem to have a reading comprehension problem as well Pederson…this issue is NOT ABOUT IMMIGRANTS. It is about ILLEGAL ALIENS, and there IS a defined difference.

  142. Proud Latina said on 2 Aug 2007 at 9:24 am:
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    Mr. AWCheney, that is the point that I get also. All over this topic and others in this blog there is mention of immigrants. One person said we should just get rid of all the immigrants, legal or illegal. I can have all the writting problems you like me to have, but I am one that has not forgotten my roots, something I can not say about YOU. Let them come to my door step. Do you want me to give you my home address? I do not think that you are a parent because if you were you know what love is. The love that this illegals have for their families. To live them behind so that they can come and get a better life for them. It must of been easy for your family to come here. I hope one day you would understand what a big mistake you are making. I just hope it is not to late.

  143. AWCheney said on 2 Aug 2007 at 10:30 am:
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    You, Ms. Latina, have obviously not been reading the posted comments on this issue or, for one thing, you would have noted that I am MRS. Cheney, and I have reached the limit of my patience. Your display of ignorance adds nothing to this debate, other than to explain how it is that you, and those “shortcut” immigrants like you, have been deluded by the organizations devoted to having our country further overrun by illegal aliens who have no further desire than to rape this country of whatever resources they are able. I had suggested that you do some research into this issue before judging, but at least you should be capable of following a link (Statistics on illegal aliens, from FBI and INS):


    That said, you may find yourself another foil for your irrational ranting. No need to further address me…as I said, my patience is at an end and I will no longer respond.

    If that’s what you support, you will indeed reap the same consequences as the rest of us and it will come to roost on your doorstep.

  144. Anonomous said on 2 Aug 2007 at 2:53 pm:
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    I agree with manassascityresident, what have illegals contributed to this country, absolutely nothing, they have takin jobs from honest, true americans. Forcing the ones that are still trying to get jobs to accept lower wages because illegals are willing to work under the minimum wage. Also the government has basically been funding the illegals with american tax dollars, how does that benefit us??All who came illegally to this country are criminals and need to go back to their home!! Also the subject of pregnant illegals coming across the border to have their children in america so that thier children will be considered Citizens are also criminals. The government needs to add a new law to stop that.

    Proud Latina…..I can see that it would be hard for a family that has nothing to come to a new country and start a new life, but why do all of you have to break the law and enter illegally, and why do we have to adjust our lifestyle so you can live here. I will have no problem what so ever if you all followed these simple rules:
    One: if you are going to live in the United States then you HAVE to speak english, we should not let you come into our country and WE have to learn to speak spanish.
    Two: you have to keep you property in descent condition, i cannot tell you how many houses i have seen with couches and other trash cluttered all over the yard. We are guilty of it too and i think that should change as well but..
    Three: There should not be six different families in one house. To me it should be a husband, a wife, children, and occasionally another family member such as a grandparent or something.

    IF you could follow those rules then i am sure that life in Manassas would at least get a little better.

    PS. John Pederson: I am part American Indian, one of my great-grandparents was 100% Cherokee and i am white so if you arent part american indian then you need to stop talking.

  145. Cherokee#1 said on 2 Aug 2007 at 3:00 pm:
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    I am Anonomous above, this is my new name

  146. Proud Latina said on 2 Aug 2007 at 3:28 pm:
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    Cherokee, Do You know how hard it is to come here. Just to get a visa to visit there is so many requirements. You have to have a very good job and a lot of money in the bank. The thing is if you have all that in your country why would you want to come here. I do agree with you in the sence that there are so many people living in one house. I hate that as well. No one is telling you to speak Spanish. Let me know where it say you are required to speak Spanish. You make a better point than anyone else, but I just do not see the point to treating them like animals. Just imagine how life would be if americans took the illegal’s jobs and they increase the pay. How expensive you think things will get and then you would be saying. Man we should of kept those illegals here. No one is stealling jobs from anyone, please stop with that excuse. If anyone wants a job there is plenty out there. They are just to lazy to go out a look for one.

  147. Cherokee#1 said on 2 Aug 2007 at 3:48 pm:
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    well if you want to visit a country then you should have to go through alot of paperwork, dont act like we have special paperwork just for hispanics its the same for everybody. And the reason there is so much paperwork is because the government is too scared of giving a visa to a terrorist. And my point with us having to speak spanish is this. I am 15 years old and i am in 10th grade. In school we have classes for Spanish speakers that are taught in spanish, i think that if you are going to live in the United States even if you come from another country, im not saying to renounce anything, but you should learn english and have it as your primary language. And if you go to a 7-11 you will see a mass of hispanics there waiting for work as painters, some home remodeling jobs, etc. That takes away from the people whose profession is a painter, construction worker, home remodeler, etc. If people can get the same work for cheaper from illegals then they will do it, and i think that they should be punished just as much for utilizing illegals. And i understand that life would be hard for someone who is not well-off to come to a new country and make a living. but what you should do about it is first become a citizin, get an honest job, work your ass off, and i dont think that someone coming to this country that is not rich would be able to afford college. So the most they can hope for is to earn enough to be able to get by and earn enough for your children to start a descent life by going to school K-12 then going to college to get a better job, because these days if you dont go to college you cant get a very good job. My point is that you dont have to come into this country illegally to earn a good living, do what all of us before have done, when our forefathers came to this country, they didnt start out rich and with the opportunities we have now, when they came here, they worked their ass off so that future generations could have something better. And there arent plenty of jobs out there, some of the middle class, where i am from, didnt get the chance to go to college, so the lesser careers are harder to get because of the illegals.

  148. Cherokee#1 said on 2 Aug 2007 at 3:51 pm:
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    and on the languages part, how many people from other countries as in french, german, russian, do you see only speaking that language, they learn to speak the language of where they are now living, why cant everybody else??

  149. Bob Sentz said on 2 Aug 2007 at 4:36 pm:
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    Proud Latina
    How about we pass an immigration policy here in the US of A as tough as the one in mexico. Here is just an example from Wikipedia:

    Mexican Immigration policy
    Certain legal rights are waived in the case of foreigners, such as the right to a deportation hearing or other legal motions. In cases of flagrant delicts, such as a person declaring they entered the country illegally, any citizen may make a citizen’s arrest on the offender and his accomplices, turning them over without delay to the nearest authorities.

    Only Mexicans by birth or naturalization and Mexican companies have the right to acquire ownership of lands, waters, and their appartenances, or to obtain concessions for the exploitation of mines or of waters.

    Mexicans have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions, or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable. Foreigners can serve in the military only during wartime.
    Maybe all this talk about racism and hate should be directed to mexico’s policies.

  150. Bob Sentz said on 2 Aug 2007 at 4:39 pm:
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    Proud Latina
    Think it’s difficult to get into the U.S. (it should be) look and see how difficult it is getting into mexico:

    1. If you migrate to this county, you must speak the native language

    2. You have to be a professional or an investor. No unskilled workers allowed.

    3. There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools, no
    special ballots for elections, all government business will be
    conducted in our language.

    4. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they are here.

    5 Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.

    6. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food stamps, no health care, or other government assistance programs.

    7. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.

    8. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT options will be restricted. You are not allowed waterfront property. That is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.

    9. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no waving a foreign flag, no political organizing, no badmouthing our president or his policies, if you do you will be sent home.

    10. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be hunted down and sent straight to jail.

    As they say we ARE the El Stupido Gringo!

  151. Cherokee#1 said on 2 Aug 2007 at 4:51 pm:
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    Lol, nice going bob, nobody is seeming to like Proud Latina, im a neutral with a cause!!

  152. Scott said on 3 Aug 2007 at 2:14 am:
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    Cherokee#1 My mother in law came to this country and spoke only French. She learned how to speak English. People like proud Latina need to get their heads out of their rear ends and learn the reason that people are against illegal immigration. And proud Latina, my mother was an immigrant. It took her nine years to do it the legal way. Your foul mouth and name calling do nothing to further your cause, and the hate you speak of seems to be coming from your mouth. And for you Proud Latina, I know multiple people who have lost well paying construction jobs to illegal immigrants because the employers did not want top pay matching taxes, benefits etc. so don’t hand me your load of crap about lazy Americans.

  153. Scott said on 3 Aug 2007 at 2:15 am:
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    Blah, no edit.

  154. John Pederson said on 3 Aug 2007 at 4:58 am:
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    AWRootbeer: You answered the question correctly. Anyone who came into this country originally never had anyones permission to do so. In fact, the early white settlers burned, raped and pilaged the Native Americans ILLEGALLY took what they wanted and justified it by calling them savages. We are white, we are right!

  155. Proud Latina said on 3 Aug 2007 at 8:22 am:
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    Cherokee, first of all I am not here for anyone to like me. I do not care if you all do or don’t. Scott, do you know exactly that they were illegal aliens? Did you check their paperwork, or where they just Hispanics. I make have a foul mouth but at least I am not barbaric like you guys. That guy making all this rules about what foreignors can and can’t own. Who died and made him God. foreignors that will not be allowed to vote? what, not even naturalized citizens, because even if they become citizens they are still foreignors. Man you just pissed off a whole bunch of other people not only hispanics. No one is calling you an estupido gringo? One last thing those percentages on that link that they are putting out there they are a joke. How came up with them. The minuteman or you guys?

  156. Proud Latina said on 3 Aug 2007 at 8:38 am:
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    Also, the immigration laws in Mexico, might be though, but tell me who want to immigrate to Mexico. In addition, if you want only English to be used anywhere, then start by replacing your sign. It is a chinease sign not an english one.

  157. Bob Sentz said on 3 Aug 2007 at 10:08 am:
    Flag comment

    Just a joke…

    Jose and Carlos are panhandling at the freeway off-ramp.

    Jose drives a Mercedes, lives in a mortgage free house and has a lot of money to spend.

    Carlos only brings in 2 to 3 dollars a day.

    Carlos asks Jose how he can bring home a suitcase full of $10 bills every day.

    Jose says, “Look at your sign.” It reads: “I have no work, a wife and 6 kids to support”

    Carlos looks at Jose’s sign. It reads: “I only need another $10.00 to move back to Mexico “

  158. Bob Sentz said on 3 Aug 2007 at 10:16 am:
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    Proud Latina
    Americans are the biggest LEGAL immigrant group in mexico. mexico is a beautiful country.

  159. AWCheney said on 3 Aug 2007 at 4:00 pm:
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    “AWRootbeer: You answered the question correctly. Anyone who came into this country originally never had anyones permission to do so. In fact, the early white settlers burned, raped and pilaged the Native Americans ILLEGALLY took what they wanted and justified it by calling them savages. We are white, we are right!”

    Who the devil are you addressing Pederson, and to which comment are you addressing it? If this is something out of your imagination, that would be slightly delusional.

  160. John Pederson said on 4 Aug 2007 at 1:33 am:
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    AWRootbeer , Cheney… whatever! Since you and others like to split hairs so much over defining who is right over who is wrong and who is legal from who is not; take a good look back from our illustrious history. The fact is the earliest settlers arrived by ship from Europe took over territory that wasn’t theirs, it did belong to the real “Native Americans”. No one invited the early Europeans to move in and there was no such thing as immigration. They didn’t even have an accurate way to keep track of where people moved to, since many strayed off into the wilderness. By your own definition, then everyone must be Illegal. Don’t even try to say that fair and equitable agreements were made to all the Indian Nations, because all terms were forced upon them and written in favor for the newcomers. Just look at the disparity in area from what they were once as Great Nations to the disgrace they live by on todays reservations. Go ahead and criticize this newest group of people and label them Illegal, but history and the facts that stare us in the face obviously point otherwise. History isn’t delusional…it is just those that prefer to ignore obvious ramifications.

  161. AWCheney said on 4 Aug 2007 at 3:55 am:
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    Well, if you want to live in a wilderness with open borders Pederson, I suggest you look around the world and try to find a country that still exists like that. Even those that are not nearly as densely populated as ours do not have “open borders.” There is also the fact that those of you who address the issue from the perspective of the 17th Century forget that this wasn’t even a nation then…just a collection of colonies. If history is the best evidence you can offer of the value of your perspective, perhaps you should try living in the 21st century and see if you can find more viable facts to support it.

  162. John Pederson said on 4 Aug 2007 at 9:43 am:
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    AW: It was an Indian Nation before it was anything else. Pick areas of desert in the southwest and you’ve got your wilderness with plenty of open borders…

  163. AWCheney said on 4 Aug 2007 at 6:51 pm:
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    My point exactly…most countries try to enforce their laws.

  164. John Pederson said on 4 Aug 2007 at 7:47 pm:
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    …Well, atleast there is no one trying to burn, rape or pilage anyone. They come here to work and in many cases toward achieving citizenship. If you lived in a country that was depressed, had no economy would you:

    a) stay and starve

    b) organize a coup

    c) write a letter to your corrupt government - or -

    d) pack up and leave to find a better life

    I think we all know the answer and why it is happening.

  165. AWCheney said on 4 Aug 2007 at 8:41 pm:
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    “Well, atleast there is no one trying to burn, rape or pilage anyone.”

    Well then, if you believe that, perhaps you should check out this:


    …and this…


    …and this…


    …and this…


    …and this…


    There are thousands of entries like this, and you say that “at least there is no one trying to burn, rape or pillage anyone?” Perhaps, Mr. Pederson, you should pray that you or your loved ones never come face to face with the reality.

  166. John Pederson said on 5 Aug 2007 at 2:42 am:
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    …and our prisons aren’t overflooded with criminals of naturalized origin? Thousands upon thousands of them. A person could equally draw the same inference from the hardened criminals born and raised inside our own country; legal citizens who are members of the klu klux klan, the american nazi party, the skinheads and any white supremacist flag waving hate group that pops up….criminals are criminals, doesn’t matter whether they are from Crawford, Texas or Tiajuana, Mexico!

    Enter the names of any of the above mentioned in Google and plenty of websites will pop up.

  167. Cherokee#1 said on 5 Aug 2007 at 3:55 pm:
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    Pederson, are you Native American?

  168. AWCheney said on 5 Aug 2007 at 4:50 pm:
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    That’s right Mr. Pederson…we have quite enough home-grown problems to deal with. Do you really believe that it’s prudent to continue to allow the unimpeded flow of people who multiply our problems beyond our resources to cope with them?

  169. John Pederson said on 5 Aug 2007 at 10:07 pm:
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    Cherokee#1: Yes and there are “Native Lines” in my family… but why would that make any difference. Anyone who doesn’t recognize what historically happened to the “Original Americans” who lived here is clearly denying what happened. I know AW is considering the time frame as point of reference during the early colonies but the move west ward continued with broken truce after truce and that was well after 1776. They were a “Nation” formed by then. Nothing was sacred, everything was destroyed! All society, culture, faith and very few legislators really care enough about their plight.

    The other part deals with the fact that many of the women of those tribes were raped, their villages were robbed and burned down! As a group the comparison of finding some bad apples among these new immigrants is like finding them also among the rest of our own society. That isn’t an excuse to add only more to the problem but that isn’t also a true depiction of defining them either. Both cannot be compared in the same breath, because the new ones are looking for work not going into towns as an army raping women, stealing inside everyones home or burning them down the way a crazed arsonist would… If you are a true brother then you would understand more than anyone else.

  170. AWCheney said on 6 Aug 2007 at 2:12 am:
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    I believe that you will find, Mr. Pederson, that the majority of both Native Americans and Blacks would find it denegrates the tragedies of their history to have them used as an excuse to allow what is happening today with the illegal alien occupation. I have countered you point by point and you are unable to argue with anything but assumptions for which you can offer no evidence. I would say that young Cherokee #1 has a great deal more credibility in that area than either you or me. And when it comes to the issue of immigration itself, I have it all over you. You see, Mr. Pederson…I am an immigrant, now a Naturalized Citizen. I suspect your roots are far more removed from the issue.

  171. AWCheney said on 6 Aug 2007 at 2:14 am:
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    Correction: denIgrates

  172. John Pederson said on 6 Aug 2007 at 2:29 am:
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    Aw: History is not an assumption, it is based on facts. Facts are the evidence. The first sentence from your last response is an assumption.

  173. AWCheney said on 6 Aug 2007 at 4:31 am:
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    Reading comprehension, Mr. Pederson…as I said, “young Cherokee #1 has a great deal more credibility in that area than either you or me.”

  174. John Pederson said on 7 Aug 2007 at 12:50 am:
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    Yet another assumption!?

  175. pm said on 8 Aug 2007 at 8:02 am:
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    Another way to way to help curb illegal aliens from invading PWC is to enforce the law which will fine employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens. For our part as consumers we should expect to pay more so employers can hire only American citizens helping them pay their workers a higher wage than what an illegal will work for. Assuming of course we’re not counted as part of statistics of having a credit card debt of $7k per household in America, excluding mortgage debt. Then, it shouldn’t be a problem to pay a little more, right? Before you disagree consider this, with the numerous home foreclosures in PWC we will be paying less home property taxes due to a drop in home values in PWC, as an added consequence of driving the illegal aliens out of PWC, the county will be spending less in services being drained only by illegal aliens. This should be another incentive for the county to lessen our taxes giving us a little more dough to pay for whatever costs the employers pass on. But, if your just like me finding the American dream is getting a little harder to attain leaving you angry, frustrated, overwhelmed. It is much easier to take it all out on the Illegal aliens, after all they are the law breakers deserving our self righteous indignation! It does feel great knowing I’m part of a group of folks who have a monopoly of HIGH MORAL VALUES!

  176. Cherokee#1 said on 10 Aug 2007 at 8:03 pm:
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    thank you AWCheney, I may be young but I at least have some common sense. And Pederson, why are you dwindling in the past. That was a long time ago, this is now.

  177. John Pederson said on 12 Aug 2007 at 12:57 am:
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    Cherokee#1 For that statement, our ancestors are rolling in their graves…

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