Local Zapatistas Call For Revolution
By Greg L | 27 July 2007 | Zapatistas, Prince William County | 208 Comments
The Manassas Journal-Messenger is reporting that the “pro-immigrant” group Mexicanos Sin Fronteras has been holding meetings around Prince William County in order to rally their supporters into participating in a boycott and one day strike. Amidst all this rather generous coverage of our local arm of the Zapatista Army of National Liberation and it’s attempts to radicalize the latino community, it is conveniently ignoring what this group stands for. From the Mexicanos Sin Fronteras website, translated from spanish by Google:
To be anti-capitalist anti-imperialist in the capital of the most terrorist country of world-wide history and not to question the commitments or challenges, to us would free the critics and outside the play. Our movement takes to the other campaign. From our campaign it has been yesterday against racism, the persecution and the discrimination of most unprotected across of the country. We recognize our obligations like migrants and our rights so pisoteados in, we think there that a glance to those of here is necessary being wanted to go for there and to those of there being wanted to return. We are thankful to the zapatismo by the lesson.
We appreciate the attention to our word and we authenticated our solidarity and our commitment to them with the mother country.
This “anti-capitalist” organization describes Washington, DC as the “capital of the most terrorist country in world history”, pledges it’s support for the “other campaign” of the EZLN with material and financial assistance, and states that remittances to Mexico by Mexican nationals living and working in the United States should be used to support Zapatista “autonomous zones” and perpetuate this armed rebellion in Mexico. At the bottom of this web page is this photo I use fairly frequently of Mexicanos Sin Fronteras representative Arnoldo Borjas addressing the EZLN, which somehow is supposed to help promote this “other campaign”, established by the “Sixth Declaration of the Lacadonan Forest” (”La Sexta”):
I guess the press somehow missed this.
Is this the face of our local “pro-immigrant” movement? When these meetings, often held at local Catholic Churches break into exhortations for revolution, will the press that covers these meetings continue to ignore the rather evident and deeply concerning radical nature of Mexicanos Sin Fronteras? No, that wasn’t part of the press coverage, but it happened. How convenient it must be to have such uncritical local media like this. When actual citizens get together to pursue legislative solutions, they’re on the road to hell. When foreign nationals advocate the overthrow of our government, they get described as “pro-immigrant” humanitarians seeking to ensure that the constitution — our United States Constitution — is being properly applied.
Just what should happen when foreign nationals gather in the United States and start shouting that they intend to violently overthrow our government? Should they get favorable press coverage and free meeting space at religious institutions that enjoy tax-exempt IRS status, or should they be detained for questioning by the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
Hmmm, tough call.
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The third world mentality cracks me up. I used to date a girl who grew up in the Panama Canal Zone. She used to tell me that her liberal parents wanted so badly to jump into any uprising; so what they would usually do is send their maids to the uprising in the family Mercedes so they could shake their fists out of the sunroof, beep the horn, and shake their fist out of the windows.
Not really sure what the point of this is….you all just figure it out. My girlfriend was hot (another pointless statement…I just want everybody to know…still).
Well I for one hope the revolution comes quickly… and succeeds! Then the US will be a workers paradise. Just like China and Cuba!!!
Well Gurduloo, why don’t you quickly hop on a plane (or in a lil row boat) and get yoself to “paradise” as quickly as you can, instead of foolin’ around, wasting time here!!??
:)
I drove by the meeting last night with my husband and neighbor. We saw ALOT of cars full of passengers and alot of walkers. It was a big turn out. HOWEVER, they may have numbers but how many are legal citizens and CAN VOTE?
This is no more the the face of pro-immigrant as the KKK is the face of “Help Save Manassas” but both extremes will use this opportunity to express themselves. Let cooler heads prevail and stay on task . If we continue to demonize both sides it will only get ugly and the issues will get lost in the hate. There are good people on both sides, bring them together and find a solution which works.
Actually this is the group that is spearheading the illegal alien lobby in Prince William and Manassas. This is the mainstream opposition, the one that spoke against the resolution on July 10th, and received national television coverage for their rally outside of the Board of County Supervisors after the vote, the one holding the press conferences and holding meetings in Prince William County, and the one calling for a boycott and a one day strike.
If there are good people on the other side of this, they’ve been taking a back seat to these folks.
If you want to keep this issue as a problem of legal vs illegal 9as many of you religiously profess). You need to stop the name calling. Mexicans Without Borders are not Zapatists and you know that. If you are the mainstream group and not the KKK then bring serious point to the dialogue
Well, if their boycott and one day strike is as successful as the big one they had last year throughout the DC Metro area on Cinco de Mayo, we will once more experience less traffic, safer roads, and a day of peace. As I recall, it was so successful that they cancelled this year.
The boycott people want to spend less money in Prince William - spend less time in stores, less time at restaurants - can they just add not buying homes and not renting apartments or rooms in Prince William to the list, then I think we have acheived a perfect common ground that is in all our interests.
Attention all illegals - if you live in Prince William, your property tax - part of your rent to your landlord, for the many of you renting rooms - funds our government and Board of Supervisors much more than sales tax on food or gasoline does. Don’t live here and playact like you’re going to “boycott”.
Let’s make sure that we all go out and shop in the greater Manassas area on the day of their boycott. Last year when they held their boycott, I enjoyed shopping for a change. Easier maneuvering inside the stores as well as the parking lots and roads. Make it an end of summer sale or school shopping day. Let’s counter-revolutionize.
Greg - you call these people “the group that is spearheading the illegal alien lobby”. From a distance it seems to me - tell me if I’m wrong - the real unholy alliance is between construction firms and business owners, and their tools in our government (all levels). I believe construction firms donate more money to local politicians than any other type of business?
Apartments are being built, subsidized by Federal and/or State money (8A complexes), by companies that hire illegals, nobody seems to give a damn. For example, Clark Realty (Clark Construction Group) at the intersection of Ashton and Rosemary. All our local politicians care about is covering their ass, making sure Clark has some fake SSNs on file.
I don’t understand why we (I’m in HSM - this is a psuedonym) don’t attack this angle.
TH said…
“…If you are the mainstream group and not the KKK then bring serious point to the dialogue.”
OK, here’s a serious point for ya: Whether this country has borders or not is an issue for citizens of this country to decide, not those Mexicans who were so disenchanted that they had to come north and enter this country illegally.
No name calling, no racism, no KKK, just simple fact, TH…
Again you are calling all of them Mexicans. It is a well known fact that the stonger communities in the area are the Central Americans. T
If any of the Mexicanos Sin Fronteras people do get deported I know who they should call: Gill and Gallinger, who for a fee will argue that the “UN Convention Against Torture” prohibits the outrageous injustice of deporting a Gill and Gallinger client to a corrupt police state where people are beaten and raped in prisons blah blah blah.
Here is the Gill and Gallinger ad, just in case any Mexicanos Sin Fronteras people have missed it:
“”"”We can also help you apply for Withholding of Removal (allowing you stay in the U.S. when otherwise eligible for deportation) and gaining protection based on the United Nations Convention Against Torture.
Deportation/RemovalEven if you or your loved one is already in the process of being removed from the U.S., Gill & Gallinger may be able to help. We can help you qualify for protection from deportation based on Cancellation of Removal, Waiver of Deportation, Asylum, or other methods. Time is extremely important in situations dealing with possible removal, so contact the Gill & Gallinger today for a free consultation.”"”"
If Gill and Gallinger is getting illegal immigrant deportee clients now, just think how many it will get if Gill ever entered the Virginia legislature. Deportees will think, “I have a Virginia delegate representing me. He will help me stay in the US, which I have a right to do because I have decided that I want to live here.”
To Rick Bentley:
“I don’t understand why we (I’m in HSM - this is a psuedonym) don’t attack this angle.” [Construction companies hiring illegals]
It’s all in the works. This stuff takes time. We’re dealing with a situation that took several years to develop. It won’t be overturned in a few months. Keep a long position on this investment, and stay focused.
Does anyone have a link to the Wapo article that detailed the situation of the two illegal flagmen who work for a subcontractor of VA transportation?
TH-I don’t see a group called Cental Americans Without Borders. I believe the group is called mexicans Without Borders. And, it’s the mexican flag I see waving around at these ‘rallys’.
Barbara- Is this what you’re looking for: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/14/AR2007071401104.html
Yes Bob, Thanks. This excerpt bears repeating:
“They’re talking about this in Jefferson County, in Clarke, all the way to West Virginia,” Adrian Escobar said in Spanish, sipping from a Big Gulp cup outside a pupusa kiosk on Route 1. He and his brother Antonio dashed across the border from Mexico nearly 15 years ago and have been in the United States illegally since. They live in Winchester and make $17 an hour as flagmen for a Virginia Department of Transportation subcontractor.
The Escobar brothers shrugged at all the fretting they’d been hearing from other Hispanics last week, including workers who commute to Prince William to do its grunt work. “Who else is going to pave the roads here?” Adrian asked, cracking up with laughter. “An American? Ha!”
Antonio said he wasn’t fazed. “If you’re afraid, they’ll just intimidate you more,” he said. Besides, he added, the brothers have a plan in case Prince William police and immigration officials send them home for a “free vacation” to their father’s farm in Guanajuato.
“We’ll be right back here in a month,” Antonio said.
TH- I forget to mention that mexicans Without Borders are most definitely associated with the Zapatistas!!! Ever seen one of their banners with the mug shot, I mean, picture of Mr. Zapata?
TH - what’s wrong with starting with the Mexicanos, since they are out front in their lobbying and then we can work southward. Besides getting strong on illegals applies to all illegals. I’m sure there are more than a few central americans that would be affected anyway, so what’s in a name? Illegal is illegal.
And Emiliano Zapata is a Zapatista? or are you talking about Subcomandante Marcos who is actually a Zapatista.
Emiliano Zapata Salazar (August 8, 1879–April 10, 1919) was a leading figure in the Mexican Revolution, which broke out in 1910, and which was initially directed against the dictatorship of Porfirio Díaz. He formed and commanded an important revolutionary force, the Liberation Army of the South.
This guy wasn’t even alive when the Zapatistas started.
Bob Sentz,
My point was that you should stop referring to all illegal aliens as Mexicans. It is true that you don’t see Central Americans without Borders out there. The fact that I have seen some posts coming from White Supremacist groups here doesn’t mean that all anti-illegal aliens are members of that group.
Talk about real facts, numbers, not just anecdotes and namecalling. When I ask about references showing how bankrupt your hospital system is, people divert the discussion to my grammar or being pro immigrant.
I am convinced with facts and not rethoric
From Time Magazine, “WHO LEFT THE DOOR OPEN?” by Bartlett & Steele, September 12, 2004:
“The plight of Jim Dickson, a hospital administrator in Bisbee, Arizona summed it up in one image,” Barlett wrote. “It’s an ambulance that pulls into Copper Queen Hospital and discharges illegal aliens injured in an auto accident. The border patrol officers on orders from Washington refused to take them onto the property. Instead, the officers call an ambulance for the injured so the U.S. Government won’t be responsible for hospital costs. Instead, Dickson’s hospital gets stiffed.”
In 2003, 77 border state hospitals spiraled into bankruptcy. Instead of putting troops on the borders to stop the invasion, Arizona Senators McCain and Kyle added a $1.4 billion bailout rider onto a Medicaid bill. Instead of doing their jobs, they made taxpayers vomit their hard-earned money into paying for the invasion’s consequences. Result? It wasn’t enough. Three Los Angeles area hospitals bankrupted already this year. Dickson’s small hospital lost $1.4 million in the past three years. “The more free care we give,” he said, “the more we have to ration what’s left.”
“The highest levels of the U.S. and Mexican governments have orchestrated this situation as a kind of dance,” Steele reported. “Mexico sends its poor north to take jobs illegally and the U.S. arrests enough border crossers to create the illusion that it is enforcing immigration laws while allowing the majority to get through.”
“From October 1, 2003 to July 20, 2004, the border patrol’s Tucson sector stopped 9,051 person crossing illegal who had criminal records in the U.S., meaning they committed crimes here, returned to Mexico, then were trying to re-enter the country,” Barlett wrote. “A minimum of 378 had active warrants for their arrest.”
“The numbers suggest that tens of thousands of criminals, quite possibly hundreds of thousands, treat the border as a revolving door to crimes of opportunity,” Steele wrote. “The situation is so out of control that 400,000 illegal aliens who have been ordered deported, 80,000 have criminal records, but Homeland Security does not have a clue as to the whereabouts of any of them, including those from countries that support terrorism.”
“In 2003, 77 border state hospitals spiraled into bankruptcy” I don’t see the Prince William Hospital System getting to this level. They are building a new Outpatient Facilty to get to their customers more efficiently.
Do you see a rpoblem here in Manassas? Numbers I mean not just the story that I heard that someone heard…….
Legal2,
There is no problem with starting with Mexicans but my point was abpout namecalling.
“Who else is going to pave the roads here?” Adrian asked, cracking up with laughter. “An American? Ha!”
Well there is a point there. Driving around this country the group you see taking these jobs is mostly Hispanic.
TH,
The dots are pretty well connected, starting with Unity in the Community. This group lobbies on behalf of, raises money for, has provided material support to, and is in complete solidarity with, the Woodbridge Workers Committee (WWC). Additionally, several of Unity in the Community’s key members are also members of WWC. John Steinbach is a shining example of this. WWC, led by Ricard Juarez, is a wholey owned subsidiary of Mexicanos Sin Fronteras, which is a wholey owned subsidiary of the EZLN, the ZAPATISTA ARMY OF NATIONAL LIBERATION!(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EZLN).
This is the group leading the charge against PWC, in the media, in the public forum, etc. etc.
So, when Greg (as blogger BVBL and as HSM President) refers to these people as “Zapatisas” he is being intelectually honest. When people who refer to this group collectively as Mexicans, considering that the lead advocacy group is “Mexicanos Sin Fronteras” represents illegal MEXICANS living in the US, the only thing that they are guilty of is not being all conclusive in their descriptions. Perhaps “Mexicans et. al.”
Now maybe you were not aware of the relationships between these groups, but I suspect otherwise. I suspect that you are a shill for the open-borders lobby, and might even be a member of one of the above-listed groups. So instead of splitting hairs, how about finding some intelectual honesty yourself?
TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:24 pm:
This is not about Hispanics, it was the fact that they were hired by VDOT and are illegal. The attitude of “we’ll be right back here in a month”, is also the issue.
Which country/countries of origin do MOST of the recent illegal aliens come from? Which country/countries of origin has abused our immigration laws the MOST in recent times? Th…any thoughts?
re:redawn said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:33 pm:
CORRECTION, I meant regaurding what:
TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:24 pm:
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:dsaaSEtWuA0J:www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/illegal.pdf+illegal+alien+statistics&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=25&gl=us
A little help.
“Now maybe you were not aware of the relationships between these groups, but I suspect otherwise. I suspect that you are a shill for the open-borders lobby, and might even be a member of one of the above-listed groups”
And you Steve are KKK and White Supremacist. Because these groups are the ones who just wanta white America. Youa re racist and all thet is wrong in the worl just because i have the feeling that yoiu are bad…. Just Kidding.
It is just to make my case that you cannot put people into specific groups just because you think so.
I am in favor of legal immigration. I have said in other post that assimilation is the key to success in this country.
I don’t like the just calling names to prove an argument. You convince me if you show me facts and real sources. I am a social scientist by trade so I am used to present numbers and prove my point.
I need to verify that the assertion you make about MWB is correct and not just your gut feeling. I give you the benefit of the doubt. However, the Zapatistas don’t move freeely through Mexico and I doubt that thet have access to financial resources or time to fight for a movement in old town Manassas.
redawn,
I understand that a lot of the problems we see have to do with certain attitude that is perceived the wrong way by Americans. What can you expect from mostly uneducated people? Ignorance is the same here or San Salvador.
How long can America survive?
I read many posts on the net from Compassion concerned Americans advocating Amnesty and even open borders! Many label any of us concerned about both as racist, & worse. I can certainly understand their Compassion. I have lived in third world counties & seen the horrible conditions they live with, hunger & poverty on a scale most Americans cannot imagine. In fact, if I could have ignored the hungry kids begging I would probably still be living there. But I made the same mistakes there that many of the Amnesty and open borders advocates are making here. At first I gave a few coins to the little filthy starving kids living on the streets, after all it cost me so little and did so much for them. But the next day where there had been three there would be 10 the day after 50 until it got to the point where it was impossible for me to help. If I had given them everything I had it would have helped them 1 day and put me in their condition. The USA gives Billions in foreign aid, we take in more legal Immigrates then the rest of the world combined. But no matter how Compassion we are we cannot ignore economics 101 we cannot become the welfare state for the world with our open borders and an unlimited supply of virtually slave labor. We are lowering the standard of living for all working Americans by both decreasing the wages and increasing the social costs & damage to this Nation in every area from, Crime, Corruption of our Politicians, Business leaders, Pollution, Energy use, Water, Congestion, Welfare, Medical costs, Education, Insurance etc. There are those that say the solution is simple give them amnesty so they will pay taxes etc. However, Illegal Aliens have an average of a 6 grade Education which compares to a 3 grade education even by our very poor education standards. So they are averaging consuming 3 dollars in social services for every dollar they pay in. With their high birth rate and low income nearly all will get income tax credit from 1500 to 3200 returned every year & come nowhere near paying in enough to pay the average 7K to 10K each year costs to send their children to school. Considering inflation the Average income for Americans has been decreasing every year for the last 20 years! In the long run trying to be compassion and help the illegals pouring across our open borders helps no one and hurts all. Nothing is accomplished by turning this into another third world nation which is already started & if we give this Amnesty for the far more number quoted of 12 millions by the Government & all there chain immigration we are looking at adding probably at least 100 million of poorly educated Citizens an underclass that will quickly become unsustainable. Then you will see riots and fires burning from coast to coast! Far better to close our borders and if necessary pay every Illegal Aliens here 100k to return to their home country and/or start a Marshall plan for Latin American!
I have extensively documented the connection between the EZLN and Mexicanos Sin Fronteras using information obtained from the Mexicanos Sin Fronteras website and the statements of Ricardo Juarez as reported in the media. It is worth noting that the orginal name for the WWC/MSF was the Zapatista Committee of the Knitted Cap, in reference to the fashion statement displayed in the photo above. Mr. Juarz and Mr. Steinbach, as well as Ms. Jacinto and Ms. Lyall have conducted workshops on Zapatista organizing principles in the US, and Mr. Juarez has made public statements regarding his support for the EZLN.
Go back through the threads in the category “Zapatistas” on this site, and you will find extensive documentation in this regard. That you refuse to acknowledge that this clear association exists speaks to a possibility of selective perception on your behalf.
“Which country/countries of origin do MOST of the recent illegal aliens come from? Which country/countries of origin has abused our immigration laws the MOST in recent times? Th…any thoughts?”
Mexico, sure
Whic groups opposed the most to people who are not White?
White Supremacist who are racist,
Help Save Manassas opposes Mexicans,
Help Save Manssas is a racist .
You see the logic. It doesn’t work that way. Why do you insist on using everywhere you post (assumming thta you are the sam Patriot I see in the WAPO that you hate but read).
It is a fact that the majority of illegal aliens in this country are Mexicans but not all of them. THAT IS MY POINT! Despite the fact that you are suggesting that both terms mean the same then you are getting very close to term that is hated here the most: Racist.
I am not accusing you of being one of them because in most of your post you talk about that this issue is Illegal vs Legal. However your comments tell me that not all illegal aliens are equal, right?
Did you see the illegal aliens from Ireland with their flags during the May 1 March? There were Salvadoran, Nicaraguan, Honduran, Colombian, and Polish flags there but you insist on calling them Mexicans.
You see Greg. When you give me facts I accept your point. You are right and I see the connection. My point is that not all people should be put into categories because you feel it that way. That is all. I see the connection and for the record I accept your argument: call the group Zapatista. However not all illegal aliens are Zapatistas. Would you agree with that?
“Start a Marshall plan for Latin American!”
I see here a start in terms of finding the solutions by going to the root of the problem. I think that this government should work harder on forcing some of this countries to invest on their own.
OK, TH, enough on this confusion about “name calling”….you said:
“If you want to keep this issue as a problem of legal vs illegal 9as many of you religiously profess). You need to stop the name calling. Mexicans Without Borders are not Zapatists and you know that. If you are the mainstream group and not the KKK then bring serious point to the dialogue”
At your request and because of your reference to “Mexicans Without Borders,” I posed the serious point: “Whether this country has borders or not is an issue for citizens of this country to decide, not those Mexicans who were so disenchanted that they had to come north and enter this country illegally.”
I assumed that members of the organization “Mexicans Without Borders” are Mexicans…but perhaps not. The “serious point” I posed, however is equally applicable to aliens of ANY nationality who would be so brazen as to suggest that America have no borders. Again, no name calling, no racism, no KKK, just simple fact, TH
TH,
Perhaps you aren’t a shill, but rather not yet fully convinced. Ever see how the Feds take down a crime organization? They connect the players, which gives them a true picture of what the organization does, from the lowliest wise-guy on the street, to the Cappos, right up to the Don.
This same approach, which we have applied to the groups I mentioned previously, shows the relationships. They have common members across these groups. They are mutually supporting. They are co-signats of charters and manifestos. The connections have been made, and they are real.
This is the real opposition. It isn’t that poor schlub standing outside of 7/11 looking for work, or marching in protest because Ricardo Jaurez told him to. People like Juarez, Lyall, Jacinto, Steinbach, Rishell, Fox, Borjas aren’t looking out for the interests of their community. They are motivated by power, and their desire to be the intellectual elites of this community. Classic marxist thinking.
Since you say you are a social scientist, you can appreciate that you must make observations over time, in order to find the relationships, causes, effects and trends. We’ve been watching these people and their organizations for a long, long time.
Th…what would you say about the NCLR? Are they racist? Afterall, all they do is advocate furthering hispanics/latinos (and no one else) for policy making purposes. What about that? Policies should be made for the good of ALL legal individuals (not being in favor of one group over another). The last time I checked…there are no caucasion advocate groups that lobby our elected officials. However, NCLR is a heavy lobbying entity.
Freedom and Steve,
I like the dialogue and the tone used. I think that to solve this problem people will nee to braisntorm seriously. it is not as simple a ssend them all back. It is expensive and quite unrealistic. Is it attrition by enforcement? Maybe but I doubt it because of the market. I think the issue is not only about open borders but a problem that this economy got used to cheap labor.
You can penalize the illegal aliens for taking the jobs but what about the employers?
Nothing get done about that. I know that George Taplin takes pictures of employers and denounces them but in general people take it against the product of that sick system.
Are you willing to start doing something against those emplying illegal aliens? Not buying houses built by them, etc, etc?
Regarding the groups behind the immigration movement I think they are very inexperienced in terms of their choices (boycotts, national anthem in Spanish, etc). The problem with the illegal alien issue is that it brings a lot of passion to the table and rational and realistic discussions are lost.
Thanks for bringing good point to the blog.
Th…all that needs to be done is heavily fine and revoke the business licenses of businesses that hire illegal aliens and cut all social benefits (welfare, WIC, foodstamps, free medical, free education, subsidized housing, etc.) that are given to illegals and their families (that help them to operate and are incentives). Very simple.
Patriot,
What would you say about Jesse Jackson? Is he racist? or how about Obama?
Latinos are just starting to grow in this system and it is just a natural result of that progression to start supporting each other through all these groups. It happened in the past with the Irish, Italians, and Germans.
Ther are some groups who only support Jewish causes and I don’t think they are racist.
Th…have you heard Janet (CEO from NCLR) speak? All she talks about is hispanic/latino this and that. What she should be saying is…legal hispanics/latinos should join with all other groups and work for the good of all Americans. However, that is not how she approaches things. Jesse Jackson stirs the pot on race issues all the time…that is how he earns his living. What do you mean Latinos are just growing into this system of ours? They have been around a long time.
Th…would you say that the majority of the new wave of hispanics/latinos want to join the American “melting pot” or remain as a separate group based on ethnicity?
Th…while I am on the subject…if we Americans decided to go to Mexico (or any other country for that matter) and demanded that they start speaking English and doing things “the American Way”…do you think those countries would “change their culture” for us? Please be honest.
“What would you say about Jesse Jackson? Is he racist? ”
Yes. I would call the man who called New York City “Hymie Town”, who has publically denegrated Jews, a racist.
I am still waiting for Th to answer my direct questions above.
It is a liberal tenet that only white people can be racist.
TO ALL,,
THANKS
PEACE OUT~
HAPPY FRIDAY, I will be gone for a week or 2 so, I just wanted to let you, that if someone wants to respond to me and I don’t answer back I AM NOT A COWARD or whatever else
1. Th…would you say that the majority of the new wave of hispanics/latinos want to join the American “melting pot” or remain as a separate group based on ethnicity?
2. Th…while I am on the subject…if we Americans decided to go to Mexico (or any other country for that matter) and demanded that they start speaking English and doing things “the American Way”…do you think those countries would “change their culture” for us? Please be honest.
Please everyone…let Th answer these questions before anyone else posts. These are very important.
“would you say that the majority of the new wave of hispanics/latinos want to join the American “melting pot” or remain as a separate group based on ethnicity?”
How is this even relevant to illegal immigration? If a person comes here legally and becomes a citizen, they’re absolutely free to keep or discard their own culture as they see fit (think about the Amish here) - that’s the American way. And if someone comes here illegally, should it matter to you if they try to fit in or not? It’s questions like these that make me think you people just don’t like hispanic people.
I’m curious. This site says:
Blog-Fu for Prince William, Manassas and Manassas Park politics.
Illegal immigrants from Mexico immigrants are not remotely high in numbers in Northern Virginia compared to illegal immigrant Salvadorans and other Central Americans or indeed other nationalities. Why is it that so many of you all have a fixation on Mexicans on a blog that is specifically about the “problem” as you see it in this particular region? Even if Mexicans represent the largest population in the group you oppose nationwide, why do you use Mexicans as an umbrella term when discussing the issue in a thread that is specific to politics of PW, M, and MP?
Oh. There are Americans who go to other countries all the time and demand that people speak English. They are called tourists.
Kidding, sort of, but it is interesting to see how little many Americans care to even try to learn a greeting or a thank you for the places they visit. They are famous for it and even if exaggerated as a reputation, it is definitely a phenomena.
BornHere,
*Sighs*, please go back a READ the discussion. It’s “Mexicans without Borders” that is being commented on, not Mexicans.
Do you live in Manassas Park? That would explain a lot.
Just start ignoring Bornhere. She is not interested in defending the issues. She is only interested in the art of wordsmithing and arguing semantics. You say “to-MAY-to” and she asks you to defend why you didn’t say “to-MAH-to” instead of responding to the original question where tomato was just a single word used in a sentence.
Batson is correct. Any of you that don’t live in PWC, the park or some other locality where illegals have ravaged are not qualified to argue the pro-illegal line. If you live in my town and STILL want to defend what they have done then please by all means continue. If not then beat it.
Being a tourist is much different than trying to reside somewhere and demanding the whole culture change. Nice try Bornhere. Why don’t you answer my questions bornhere?
I also think it’s great that the illegals are learning to get together and form groups that support each other to demand change. I think it’s very sad and very shameful that they didn’t have the wherewithal to manage to do this in their own countries. I suggest that they take this newfound strength and solidarity back to their home countries and institute a revolution there, throw out all the sh1tbird politicians, police and drug lords that have been milking them dry for almost two hundred years and create their own America south of the border.
It’s so funny for me to see how many billy badass illegals there are here in America demanding rights and forming groups to counter our citizen groups when they don’t have the balls to do it in their own countries. Fortune favors the bold my illegal friends. Go home and claim your fortune and take it out of the hands of the bourgeoisie that have been stealing from you nonstop for two hundred years. You are not needed nor wanted here. Come back legally later on if you so choose and you can be my neighbor and my friend.
Perfectly said, Park’d !
I have another question. Why are the hispanics/latinos so concerned with illegal immigration crackdowns if they are doing nothing wrong (either residing here illegally or aiding and abetting illegals)? Seems to me that no other group of people are protesting???
Park’d, I am not arguing semantics when I ask whether it is legitimate to use Mexicans as a stand-in term for “illegal immigrant” either when one discusses Latino illegal immigrants or illegal immigrants as a whole. It is something I have noticed a great deal in this and other forums and I suspect it is significant. If you need me to say why I think it is significant I will. Others have also brought it up, however you only choose to be hostile to me.
If you think it is fine to talk about illegal immigrants in this area as though most were Mexican, that’s good to know. But I was asking a real question whether you choose to believe that or not.
I live in Arlington, a community with a lot of illegal immigrants. However there is no anti-illegal immigrant movement comparable to what you all have so achieved in PW and I doubt there ever will be. And before you make assumptions, no, I do not live at a distance from them. They share the small apartment complex I live in, the bus I ride every day, the stores I shop at, etc. I have daily firsthand experience, which is one reason I am sympathetic to them. Your firsthand experience has created the opposite sentiment.
But in any case, I thought this was an open forum given the hundreds of posts I read in other threads from people new to the blog after the Post story. If it is a closed forum for only people from PW, M, or MP, or for only those Northern Virginians who would use the word “ravaged” to describe the impact of illegal immigrants on their home, then I guess I was mistaken. I would just then ask that Greg as forum owner specify that up top so that anyone who thought the forum was in the American tradition of free and open civil exchange would know they were in error. Greg?
Th…would you say that the majority of the new wave of hispanics/latinos want to join the American “melting pot” or remain as a separate group based on ethnicity?
Yes they are assimilating but you have to take into consideration that assimilation takes a while to consolidate. Research (Portes) shows that the 1.5 and second generations assimilates faster than their parents. Two, in your area you see a constant influx of new immigrants and the ones you see are just fresh out of water so the myth that they are not assimilating is perpetuated. In places such as Chicago. The big wave of hispanic immigrants cam in the 30s’. The second and third generation have assimilated and now particpate in the political system Tancredo is just a third generation Italian 9 a congressmen after just three generations). It is not that this wave of immigrants is different, it is just that it is early in the game.
The first generation has always found troubles with assimilation but their kids are learning the language and the only societal frame of reference that they have is this country. The old country is the place of the stories told by the parents but they don’t have anything else to compare with but this country. The fact that they are debating about calling themselves Latinos or Hispanic is just a natural way of finding their identity(WAPO article yesterday)
2. Th…while I am on the subject…if we Americans decided to go to Mexico (or any other country for that matter) and demanded that they start speaking English and doing things “the American Way”…do you think those countries would “change their culture” for us? Please be honest.
There are a lot of american living now in Mexico and they are not demanding anything but tyhere was a nice story just recently in NPR about them. They have opened their own supermarkets. The most popular product: peanut butter.
I don’t think that people should demand their own way of doing things. In other postings I have said very clearly: in order to succeed in this country you need to learn English, learn the history of this country, and respect the laws.
I don’t see any disagreement in terms of what I think tyhey need to do to be successful. We might disagree about the characterizations and the fact that you have never responded to my questions with real numbers.
the INS/FBI numbers are yours, right? If those are not yours sorry.
Give it up born…what part of Arlington? I go through the main part of Arlington almost daily and don’t see anything like what I see in PWC. Arlington is a Santuary City too!
Bornhere:
1. Would you say that the majority of the new wave of hispanics/latinos want to join the American “melting pot” or remain as a separate group based on ethnicity?
2. If we Americans decided to go to Mexico (or any other country for that matter) and demanded that they start speaking English and doing things “the American Way”…do you think those countries would “change their culture” for us? Please be honest and just answer the questions with concise answers.
Hey, I’m really sick of these lawbreakers coming to our towns. Only the American flag should be flown–this is American, not Mexico. When they come here they don’t even bother to learn English. I think it’s high time we run these folks out of here if they won’t conform to our way of life. Every one of them is a disgrace with their inability to obey the law.
Folks want to come here, they need to do it legally or not at all. And I rather they choose not at all. Our founding fathers wouldn’t have put up with an influx of people can’t talk right and didn’t know which flag to fly. I moved to Prince William thinking it was a decent place where you could fly the Flag and talk English and have real restaurants, not these sleazy taco joints everywhere. And you used to see English on all the signs, and now I can’t even read half of them.
Y’all need to go back where you came from if you want to have chickens in your yard and invite anyone you want to live in your home and drive your lowriders all over the place and join gangs.
Patriot, what questions were those? Did you address questions to me? I see you addressed a few to TH and admonished the rest of us to stay away for a bit.
I also explicitly said I was “kidding, sort of” when I talked about tourists. However I go overseas a lot and I do find it annoying that I see how many American tourists fail to learn and use the local hello, goodbye, thank you, or excuse me. My exposure to people here who don’t speak English is that they do learn, at minimum, those kinds of words. But it was a passing point. No need to get your red, white, and blue knickers in a twist.
Patriot,
The Fed Govt already has restrictions against non legal citizens obtaining food stamps, housing, medicaid etc. As for WIC, I’m not sure what the restrictions are, as WIC vouchers are distributed by health depts and not by social services. WIC vouchers are food specific and vouchers are given to either pregnant women or those with children under the age of five.I do know as a former WIC recipient that one must requalify for WIC each month by going to the health dept with a paystub and one must bring the child/ren each time to be weighed. The income qualifications are not as strict for WIC as they are for food stamps, and one cannot receive both. I haven’t seen any numbers as to how many illegals receive food stamps, and fraud does exist. But if the Dept of Social Services is doing their job correctly then the numbers are probably lower than many think.
As for education…that’s a moot point unless the supreme court ruling is overturned, and overturning rulings is a time consuming process. And who’s to say whether or not the supreme court would deny education for the US born children.
Patriot, oh, I see. Your questions have now appeared with a refreshed screen. It was like emails crossing. Let me take a look.
Patriot,
Crack them down? How long do you think it will take to finish the job? The ICE says that it cost $10,000 to deport and illegal alien. Would you go for that?
The Eisenhower number out there is not real. He rounded 500,000 and it is believed that 700,000 went back on its own. Not three million.
That is fine with me if that is the solution but the “attack on middle class America” is not caused just by the illegal alien issue.
Again, you don’t respond to any of my questions about DC. Predominantly Black in some wards. Is that OK with you? What do you think about people on welfare? Why do middle class america lack the skills to compete in the world? Get rid of all immigrants and then you will have to face the real issues. The utopian economy that we have is not ready to compete in the world because it is not efficient.
10 Billion dollars spent on Iraq every month for what? The illegals are not there and how do you morally justify that? tell me why you let the government spent like crazy and let the chinese to subsidize our way of living. We live in a bubble and many people are just happy to see us fighting for the illegal immigration bone.
ateacher, we need to have the birthright citizenship issue resolved to eliminate the anchor baby situation. Bornhere….4 posts up are the questions for you.
Th…what do you mean the middle class don’t have the skills? This issue has nothing to do with skills. It has everything to do with business wanting to make more profit using cheap labor. Please answer the questions I posed above.
Th…what about DC? Welfare should only be temporary. No one should be able to live off of it for their entire lives.
Th…you did not answer my questions as I posed them. They address the “majority” of new wave of hispanics/latinos. Please re-address my questions with this in mind.
Yes, Citizen by choice is the answare, not by accident!
All those childrens parents need to become citizens
Not worth a comment until we get serious about getting these cretins out of OUR country.
Patriot, Sorry for the lack of a yes or no concise answer, but frankly these issues are of too much import for that.
Patriot asked:
1. Would you say that the majority of the new wave of hispanics/latinos want to join the American “melting pot” or remain as a separate group based on ethnicity?
First, I would say that the melting pot concept has altered since the Ellis Island era and the immediate decades that followed it. Since the late 60s-70s, people have spoken more in terms of salads more than fondues and that goes for all kinds of separate groups in our society, not just immigrants. I realize you may be horrified by such a separate but mixed together image, but there it is. And that happened LONG before immigration had once again become a major issue in American politics, so I would not blame the recent Latinos for it.
To get back to your question, I think that a majority of the Latinos newly here (I notice you did not specify legal or illegal status) will inevitably join the melting pot as much as, say, the Koreans are, the Vietnamese are, the Ethiopians, etc. etc. have and already are exhibiting signs of doing so.
I don’t think you will ever again see the kind of blunting of ethnic identity that occurred in previous generations of immigrants whether they are Latino or other new arrivals. There are lots of reasons for this and I can go into them if you would like. But in general, yes, I think that they are already in the process of assimilating in the same way the enclaves of past generations assimilated, even though those enclaves were also accused of all the same things you accuse the Latinos of. This is not even to mention the fact that certain groups of non-immigrants in American society have also routinely been accused of non-assimilation to mainstream culture and have being clannish.
In any case, every day I hear Latino, East Asian, and other kids respond back to their mothers in English when their mothers spoke to them in the mothers’ native languages. Every day I hear immigrants’ kids playing with each other using English. I can give other examples. Most importantly, I am not sure why I should be offended by Latinos having businesses, customs, etc. that are their own. Every past and present-day immigrant community of any number has had them. Should I really object more to the El Chapparal grocery store on Wilson Blvd. than I object to an entire Eden Center full of Vietnamese businesses or to what was once Little Italy in New York? I admit one of the things I get the greatest kick out of are the interactions of immigrants from different places. Because I ride the bus a lot very very late at night with people who work in the hotels/restaurants etc. in G’town, I hear conversations in usually broken or better English, between people who work together, or wait at the bus stop together. I like seeing how Latinos go to Pho 75 and have Vietnamese soup or to Delhi Dhaba for the weekend buffet, etc. etc. I am a cosmopolitan person, so shoot me. Wait, don’t take that literally Mr. Patriot. You may well have an arsenal.
2. If we Americans decided to go to Mexico (or any other country for that matter) and demanded that they start speaking English and doing things “the American Way”…do you think those countries would “change their culture” for us? Please be honest and just answer the questions with concise answers.
I disagree that immigrants in this country have indeed come here and demanded that everyone start speaking their languages and doing things in the way of their respective nationalities. Assuming you are referring to Latinos (though you don’t say), I don’t think that holds for the various nationalities under that umbrella term either. I think government and business in this country make decisions to add Spanish to some products or forms or phone answering systems etc. *primarily* for their own convenience or (very important) profit because of the population numbers involved and not out of demands. Unless you mean the demands of the marketplace. In any case, I don’t mind seeing signs in other languages in the least.
I haven’t encountered, to take the two groups in my immediate home vicinity, any demand that I do things the Salvadoran or Mongolian way. I see accommodation coming from both sides, but then I am in Arlington and the situation is different. However I would object if Americans entered in great numbers to another country and demanded what you suggest. Actually it has happened in history, though less with us than with the classical imperialist powers.
I guess you must have experienced daily demands that you speak another language and alter everything about your way of life–work, food, leisure activity, religion, fashion, sports, etc. etc. to the ways of another group, or you would not be asking the question. Or, at least you feel that you have. If you are now going to refer to a political rally now and then as representing constant demands that everything in the United States change, I think those have hardly the pervasive effect you would imply. If demos did have that kind of effect, wow, many things would be different.
TH and Bornhere: I have noticed that there is a glaring omission of a key adjective in many of the paragraphs of your responses.
*ILLEGAL*
I know it’s a distasteful word to you, but please don’t answer your posts and leave out key the descriptors. That would be unsportsmanlike.
Bornhere: From now on, please refer to “immigrants” as “illegal aliens” in all of your posts just as I agreed to use “the majority of American People” instead of “The American People” in mine. Fair is fair.
Park’d you appear not to be paying attention. I was responding to Patriot’s questions and he did not use the term illegal or refer to illegal entry. Please read his questions. I even noted in my response that he didn’t use the term. I also think he was asking about a wider cultural impact of the largest non-English speaking minority in the United States, Spanish speakers, whether they are legal or illegal. I answered the question on his terms. Sorry I didn’t answer them on yours or that you didn’t actually notice that he didn’t use the word.
Your analogy to what I asked of you is invalid. My use of illegal immigrant is not incorrect as your use of The American People Do/Think X Y or Z.
Illegal immigrant is used by people on your own side of this issue even on this blog. I haven’t used what you all regard as a horrific euphemism, “undocumented,” but neither do I choose to use the term “alien” because it is primarily a legalistic term whose adoption by many in your movement is a political statement I don’t wish to make. I also don’t use the shorthand “illegals” but that is because I actually love the English language and that butchers it. Illegal is an adjective not a noun. In addition, I think its use as a noun is vulgar and debasing.
PS to Park’d, what is particularly laughable and kind of revealing about your dig above is that if you just scroll back up past Patriot’s questions to me (in which he didn’t use the word illegal) you will find a post to you that begins with my claim that I am not arguing semantics and that has the term “illegal” throughout as do most of my posts. But then you were so eager, so champing at the bit, that you chose not to notice that.
Meanings of “alien.”
1. a resident born in or belonging to another country who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization (distinguished from citizen).
2. a foreigner.
3. a person who has been estranged or excluded.
4. a creature from outer space; extraterrestrial.
Ignoring the Wookie and the neurotic or ostracized definitions, I would note that “alien” is in the dictionary neutral as a legal term and thus is open to having legal or illegal placed in front of it. But, glory be!, I haven’t seen you all use “legal alien” only “illegal alien.” Now why is that? I consistently use legal immigrant and illegal immigrant if I am going to use any adjective in front of immigrant, because as any copy editor would tell you, parallelism is desirable and it does not skirt the issue. However if you all want to start using legal alien every blessed time you refer to a legal immigrant who hasn’t yet gotten citizenship, we can talk. I will still imagine the Wookie however.
“The income qualifications are not as strict for WIC as they are for food stamps, and one cannot receive both.”
You learn something new everyday…especially since I have stood in line with an Hispanic lady and saw her using BOTH to pay for her groceries. She then gathered her brood and piled them into a brand spanking new minivan. There’s just something not right with that picture.
but Born Here…consider the fact that a person who has come into this country without even so much as an application, or intent for citizenship, that person is beyond question an alien, right?? By your own definition, is an alien. Hence, having not even applied, repeat, applied, or shown intent to gain citizenship, that person is therefore that alien is illegal, no??
Come on, those aliens who enter this country’s borders without legal authority are aliens and therefore, are iillegally here. Hence, “illegal alien.” Whew, semantics 101!! Think wookie if you wish, but get real!
Ya know, what we’re dealing with here is a group of people who want NO borders for this country…and the reason is that things are so bad back home that they want to be here, to stay here. However, being here, they justify their presence by claiming that there are no borders…and that the rights and social services that they could not get “at home,” they want to be provided by the American people.
What the aliens who enter this country fail to accept is that we Americans do not want OUR country to be like the one they hated so much that they left…and that if we as Americans do not control those who enter, this country, our country, will in short order, be no better than that which they fled…
Advice: Go home, apply through the legal process, when allowed, come here legally and the American people will help you with boundless ends.
Freedom, (lovely name by the way), the definition wasn’t mine. It was the dictionary’s. It doesn’t refer to intent to obtain citizenship, application processes, etc.
An alien is simply opposed to a citizen in the definition I pasted in terms of a resident here. So lots of people here with green cards who are legal residents, but who don’t want to apply for citizenship or haven’t gotten around to it and may never have entertained the “intent” are still aliens. I know some who have been here 20 years that way and love America. Technically, they are “legal aliens.” Their reasons for not trying to become citizens may be varied and certainly shouldn’t imply some sort of nefarious behavior. Just to imagine one example, a “legal alien” may be a woman with a green card married to an American who has reasons to want to keep her original citizenship, such as property concerns or family issues, and doesn’t have the option (from her own country) of having two citizenships.
I would also argue that many illegal immigrants would like to become citizens, but obviously by their means of entrance and the current law, what they would like and what will happen are two different things. I would like to see that change and at least the path first to legal status be opened for all those who are not criminals etc., and then a path to citizenship if they want it. I think it would help solve many of the complaints leveled against them.
And I wasn’t saying that you all shouldn’t use the term “illegal alien” if you so wish. It isn’t incorrect in the least and it is the favored expression on your side of the issue, well that is when your side of the issue isn’t using the coined noun of “illegals” or uglier terms. I was just noting that the anti “illegal alien” movement does not use “legal alien” although that is equally correct. The entire context for the thing was Park’d’s accusation (false) that I avoid the word illegal. I don’t. I avoid the word alien because I think legal immigrant vs. illegal immigrant does the trick, is parallel and more neutral, and I can readily add any nuances that are needed since I have a reasonable command of English.
I wouldn’t want to use “illegal alien” unless I were to use “legal alien” and both are too Wookieish for me, plus the first is your turf, using illegal alien, just like using “undocumented” is not neutral in terms of political reality today. It’s like the whole baby/fetus thing in the abortion wars. Oh god, I just used that for illustration, not to open it up
I see no posts from The Patriot where he expressly asks questions to you about immigrants without using the adjective illegal. I see a few posts where he uses the terms “new wave of hispanics/latinos”. It is implied that he refers to this new wave as illegal aliens anyway since he has stated his views hundreds of times in these very forums, but then again you already knew that. You are just trying to cleverly deny the fact that you neglected to use the word “illegal” in some of your responses. None of us here could harbor any resentment towards Hispanic immigrants. I think they are some of the bravest people that I know. Any beef you get from us about Hispanics will be those of the illegal variety. Your cunning little spin on this will not work.
There is no such thing as a legal immigrant. The word “immigrant” implies that the person who immigrated did it legally. It is a redundant descriptor so therefor is not necessary. There is also no such thing as an an illegal immigrant for this very same reason. Undocumented workers, undocumented immigrants, misplaced southern americans, or any other term used to define them is an assault on the English language that you “love so much”. The correct term is an “illegal alien”. Please start using this term when referring to them. My “chomping at the bit” as you say, was for you to be consistent with your responses so as not to confuse anyone on what the real issue is here: *Illegal* aliens.
The word “alien” is used when someone resides under a government or in a country other than that of one’s birth without having or obtaining the status of citizenship there. These people are the ones that come here to work, travel or go to school for an extended period of time and they do it LEGALLY, but then again that is implied.
illegal alien
–noun
1. a foreigner who has entered or resides in a country unlawfully or without the country’s authorization.
2. a foreigner who enters the U.S. without an entry or immigrant visa, esp. a person who crosses the border by avoiding inspection or who overstays the period of time allowed as a visitor, tourist, or businessperson.
An illegal alien on the other hand is a valid descriptor because they do enter or reside in our country and they do not have our permission to do it.
Freedom: Please use the term “illegal alien” when referring to them. They are not aliens. Aliens are people that have a valid extended visa for work, travel, or educational purposes. Illegal aliens are people that sneak across the border uninvited and these are the people that we are against. If you start using the word “alien” in your posts then it will make you look like a xenophobe.
Freedom -
No matter what you say or how you explain it, I don’t think BornHere will ever get it. I don’t think he really wants to and continues to talk in circles. I admire you’re patience - but people like him don’t want to “get it” because that would mean they would have to admit being wrong and the argument would be over. Same with TH - holy cow - reading that conversation was like watching the movie ground hog day!
par’d,
Every time I refer to illegal aliens I say Illegal aliens. The name is nothing for the debate you can call them undocumented or devil’s angels. The problem is the same. They are in your neighborhoods
manassas city resident,
OK they are terrible, the are criminals, they will rape your daughters and bring the enpire to the end.
No it is not a circle because i am agreeing with you.
Park’d, Legal alien is also an accurate descriptor, yet you do not use it. Also, while you have no use for the term “legal immigrant,” others on your side of the issue do use it. Sorry that distresses you. They use both legal immigrant and illegal immigrant so they must disagree with your reasoning that “immigrant” alone means legal. I don’t know why you bring up “undocumented” above as though I have used it, I haven’t except to say it is a euphemism.
I am 100% consistent with my legal/illegal immigrant. You are not.
I actually did use the term “illegal” in my response to Patriot when I pointed out that he didn’t specify or use that word in the questions he specifically asked of me. I thought from some of the things he said that his question went beyond illegal actually to the wider impact of having a very large Spanish-speaking population in this country. That is the only post where I haven’t prefaced most “immigrants” with legal or illegal and that was the reason. If I had any hesitation whatsoever about using the term ILLEGAL, which is what you accused me of, then I wouldn’t have typed it dozens of times before that accusation. In case you have forgotten your specific and false accusation, here it is:
TH and Bornhere: I have noticed that there is a glaring omission of a key adjective in many of the paragraphs of your responses.
*ILLEGAL*
Oh, and I am really surprised you haven’t seen any questions specifically addressed to me…..trouble again with that scroll bar?
Here you go with time and date:
# The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:11 pm:
Bornhere:
1. Would you say that the majority of the new wave of hispanics/latinos want to join the American “melting pot” or remain as a separate group based on ethnicity?
2. If we Americans decided to go to Mexico (or any other country for that matter) and demanded that they start speaking English and doing things “the American Way”…do you think those countries would “change their culture” for us? Please be honest and just answer the questions with concise answers.
Is that post addressed to me specifically enough? Or do you not think placing my name about questions numbered 1 and 2 is not sufficient to imply asking *me* something in particular.
And here is where in my reply I refer to the fact that he did not use the term illegal.
“To get back to your question, I think that a majority of the Latinos newly here (I notice you did not specify legal or illegal status) will inevitably join the melting pot as much as……”
In this country we have a huge number of legal Latino immigrants who, based on my reading and listening, are still often felt to be a cultural threat by some people when they represent large populations in a given community. Plus they usually are blended with people of illegal status in those same communities. Since I have seen lots of people make objections to too much Spanish-language and Latin American cultural influence here in general, I answered the question in general terms because Patriot didn’t specify he was asking about illegal immigrants. He didn’t even specify in his question about Americans going to a country whether they would be all be entering illegally or not. But please, feel free to insert legal or illegal in front of any “immigrants” in my post if it makes you feel better. I have answered the questions addressed to me, which is better than you have done.
“piled them into a brand spanking new minivan”. I thought it was an SUV. At least that is the way you told the story the last time. I will start making up stories from now and I will repeat it with variants. I willl bring the the same stats. You see, people demand answers from me but when they are asked real facts I don’t get answers just Lou the clown Dobbs quotes.
See your language and the way you repeat things: Illegal is illegal, What don’t you understand about illegal? Middle Class America, Save Compean and Ramos. The only thing you don’t have that Lou has is a Mexican wife
ManassasCityResident, I am not talking in circles, nor am I a “he.” Don’t know what you are however, care to enlighten so I can get the pronouns right?
If you read my post in answer to Patriot’s explicit questions to me, I have stated my views on what he (a person on your side of the issue) asked me about melting pots, assimilation, people forcing others to adopt their language and culture, etc.
You may not agree with my answers, in fact I would be really shocked if you did, but I spelled out in detail what I think concretely about the questions he asked and will do so again about any specific question on this issue that I am asked.
“Go home, apply through the legal process, when allowed, come here legally and the American people will help you with boundless ends”
OK they returned legally and they do the same things they do know. See if you remove the tag illegal and make legal it is the same thing. You won’t like them because they are not adapting to this country’s ways of doing things.
You are not racists you are jsut people who see your neighborhoods going the wrong way. Say it that way and stop saying that it is just illegal vs. legal
“All those childrens parents need to become citizens”. Is it a choice? No they are here illegally.
Bornhere,
We are the only ones who don’t get it. We talk in circles because we don’t make up stories. Mom did this and granpa that.
park’d
“Any beef you get from us about Hispanics will be those of the illegal variety. Your cunning little spin on this will not work.” So if I am here illegally but you see me blond and white, how do you know that I am here illegally.
There are a lot of Argentinians out there who are as European as a Viking. How do you find out?
Brown skin? Or whenever you make friends you ask for ID?
Smiling at TH…if you only knew…:(
for park’d….
as I said before: “…those aliens who enter this country’s borders without legal authority are aliens and therefore, are iillegally here. Hence, “illegal alien.” Whew, semantics 101!!”
Better?
TH and BornHere -
I would like to extend an invitation to you both to join Help Save Manassas.
ManassasCityResident,
Thank you kindly for the invite, but I think we might be trying to save something different. I also live in what some of you might call the People’s Republic of Arlington, so I probably would be ruled out by default.
Btw, is there website for HSM so that I could read its goals, principles, etc?
BornHere,
WWW.HELPSAVEMANASSAS.ORG
and we welcome anyone the greater Manassas area
TH,
I left you some comments under the thread “SETBACK IN HAZELTON”
BornHere,
I would have to correct my statement above to read: see on the application form, the qualifications of who can become a member
Freedom: Not really. You really need to use the adjective in front of the noun in order to prevent yourself from looking like a racist xenophobe. “Illegal alien” really is the correct use of the term. People like Bornhere will take your words and use them against you if you are not careful about how you position them. This is how the liberal media goes about making people that don’t agree with them look like racist hillbillies who hate everything that is brown.
TH: As has been said in numerous posts of mine in the past, it is all about the numbers. If 20 million Poles, Czechs, Russians or Germans (my own birth country) waltzed into my country within a span of 5 years and started converting my neighborhood signs, trashing up my streets, living 10 to a house, and demanding free services, you bet I would be up in arms about it. Skin color is irrelevant. In fact I happen to love Spanish and Asian women and prefer to date them over my own race. I am very attracted to dark features and always have been, even though I am blue eyed and sandy haired (and ruggedly handsome too I might add).
Bornhere: Short of refusing to divulge to you a simple plan on how to get rid of illegal aliens, I fail to see where I have not answered any of your questions in the numerous threads where we have squared off. You failed to answer a few of mine in one of our other threads, but I will ask you one of them again now since you seem to be the expert on all things moral and just. What would you do to solve this problem and do you really advocate that we grant amnesty to 20+ million lawbreakers which would effectively spit in the face of countless of millions of immigrants who did things the legal way (my mother included)?
Once again, “legal alien” is also not an accurate term. It is a redundant descriptor. If there were no illegal aliens then there would never be the need to use the term “legal alien”. I also only harped on you about neglecting to include the adjective “illegal” because I felt that you could confuse others. Your horrific misuse of the word “alien” when it applies to illegal aliens has already managed to confuse at least one person in here already, which is what I am trying to avoid. When I try to run a Webster’s search on the term “legal alien”, I get the following: “There are no dictionary entries for legal alien, but legal, alien are spelled correctly”.
Your defense of your position is ludicrous. For someone who claims to love the English language as much as you do, you sure have a somewhat limited grasp of it; either that or you are just too proud to admit that you are being stubborn. Just admit that you are wrong on these silly semantics issues and move on to what you are proposing as viable solutions.
BornHere -
May I ask what you are trying to save in Arlington?
I conducted a refinance transaction today for a Latino couple who own a home. The husband had a green card issued in 1990 - that is 17 years ago!!!! He did not speak English. His wife had a VA driver’s license re-issued several years ago, so I have no idea how long she has been here. She did not speak English. Their daughter had to interpret. Seventeen years !!!!! Does that sound like he wants to be an American? I see this all the time. Latinos do not want to assimilate into our society. Period. They want a separate nation/county/city of their own. They leave their home to come to a “better place” and then tear down the place to resemble the home they left. Then those here illegally have the audacity to challenge our country’s laws??? More than 2 years ago I predicted this foreclosure fiasco we are experiencing because of all the fraud I saw with the real estate dealings. I am afraid it will come down to a “revolution” and there may possibly be bloodshed before this is over.
Anyone interested in establishing a group like Help Save Manassas in their own area should feel free to email me, or they can visit http://www.helpsavevirginia.com and contact the state-level organization. Any of us would be happy to lend assistance in getting new chapters set up.
ddpdrinker — It’s my hope that by channeling the concern, frustration, and sometime outrage on this issue into legislative initiatives, we can avoid any possibility of anything other than political conflict on this issue. No one wants bloodshed. It would be horrible and tragic, resulting in costs none of us would ever want to bear.
If we can engage people in the political process, that may well inoculate our society from the kind of bloodshed that happens when folks feel there is no other alternative. There is another alternative — political activism, and that is the alternative we must always focus on and ensure will always exist.
Edit:
When I used the word “waltzed” above it was meant to convey sneaking across the border and entering into the country illegally. Let’s get that on the record straight away…
Immigration laws were put into place so that cultural clashes like this would not happen as quickly as they have. In today’s day and age where we no longer need the bolstering of huge numbers of immigrants, set numbers of people are allowed to slowly integrate into the country so that they can assimilate into American society and learn the ways of the land. It’s only natural when 20 million people circumvent these rules and help themselves to the American Dream, that there are going to be a lot of ruffled feathers. The majority of The American People are not happy.
ddpdrinker,
I have to agree with you and people like Th and bornhere are stirring the pot.
I have to think that help save manassas is a group of postive people that are trying to rally the enforcement of already existing laws. I am just learning about them and they seem to have a very positive view in my eyes. I am doing my research, just like bornhere and th should be spending their time .People like them seem to be a wasting thier time,trying to trap someone into using the wrong “word” . I see them using the “wrong” words.
It doesn’t smell good.
That’s what I meant when I said they were talking in circles, continuously repeating themselves….trying to waste our time. We need to be productive and they take away from that happening.
I have not heard back from TH regarding the invite to HSM -
Are churches allowed to let “any” organization use their facility, such as the rally at All Saints last night. I truly don’t know the “rules” on that.
Being a parishioner there, I can say that I am very disappointed.
“piled them into a brand spanking new minivan”. I thought it was an SUV. At least that is the way you told the story the last time.”
Actually TH, it wasn’t the same story. The gal with the SUV only used food stamps, not both. We live in an area where you almost always stand in the grocery line with one or more Hispanics, assuming you do your own shopping that is.
Greg: In the middle of my reply to you, I lost my internet connection. I agree with what you say, I would hate to see bloodshed over this. I was born and raised in Baltimore, during the Civil Rights era, and was there back in 1968 during the riots and watched the row houses around the corner from us being burned. I felt it brewing. Given the nature of a large amount of the hot-headed, illegal, disrespectful, arrogant Latinos, and the threat of “revolution”, I can also feel this brewing and I pray I am wrong. Immigration laws are put into effect for a reason and they are not being enforced. We are taking steps to try to get them enforced. However, those here illegally may do “whatever it takes” to stop the political process. I was so worried about Mr. Stirrup’s safety last night. The Latino countries have a history of overthrowing and revolution and civil-uprisings and I am concerned that they are going to bring that here to Manassas and Prince William County.
Manassascityresident: I would discuss that with your Pastor. I know what I would do if it were my church…
“The only thing you don’t have that Lou has is a Mexican wife.”
I should hope not TH…I don’t even have a Mexican husband. It’s also nice to know that we should now question everything you say (”I will start making up stories from now and I will repeat it with variants.”). Nice of you to give us fair warning.
I thought there was supposed to be separation of Church and State? Isn’t the illegal immigrant a “State” problem? Churches should not get involved.