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Local Zapatistas Call For Revolution

By Greg L | 27 July 2007 | Zapatistas, Prince William County | 208 Comments

The Manassas Journal-Messenger is reporting that the “pro-immigrant” group Mexicanos Sin Fronteras has been holding meetings around Prince William County in order to rally their supporters into participating in a boycott and one day strike. Amidst all this rather generous coverage of our local arm of the Zapatista Army of National Liberation and it’s attempts to radicalize the latino community, it is conveniently ignoring what this group stands for. From the Mexicanos Sin Fronteras website, translated from spanish by Google:

To be anti-capitalist anti-imperialist in the capital of the most terrorist country of world-wide history and not to question the commitments or challenges, to us would free the critics and outside the play. Our movement takes to the other campaign. From our campaign it has been yesterday against racism, the persecution and the discrimination of most unprotected across of the country. We recognize our obligations like migrants and our rights so pisoteados in, we think there that a glance to those of here is necessary being wanted to go for there and to those of there being wanted to return. We are thankful to the zapatismo by the lesson.

We appreciate the attention to our word and we authenticated our solidarity and our commitment to them with the mother country.

This “anti-capitalist” organization describes Washington, DC as the “capital of the most terrorist country in world history”, pledges it’s support for the “other campaign” of the EZLN with material and financial assistance, and states that remittances to Mexico by Mexican nationals living and working in the United States should be used to support  Zapatista “autonomous zones” and perpetuate this armed rebellion in Mexico.  At the bottom of this web page is this photo I use fairly frequently of Mexicanos Sin Fronteras representative Arnoldo Borjas addressing the EZLN, which somehow is supposed to help promote this “other campaign”, established by the “Sixth Declaration of the Lacadonan Forest” (”La Sexta”):

I guess the press somehow missed this.

Is this the face of our local “pro-immigrant” movement?  When these meetings, often held at local Catholic Churches break into exhortations for revolution, will the press that covers these meetings continue to ignore the rather evident and deeply concerning radical nature of Mexicanos Sin Fronteras?  No, that wasn’t part of the press coverage, but it happened.  How convenient it must be to have such uncritical local media like this.  When actual citizens get together to pursue legislative solutions, they’re on the road to hell.  When foreign nationals advocate the overthrow of our government, they get described as “pro-immigrant” humanitarians seeking to ensure that the constitution — our United States Constitution — is being properly applied.

Just what should happen when foreign nationals gather in the United States and start shouting that they intend to violently overthrow our government?  Should they get favorable press coverage and free meeting space at religious institutions that enjoy tax-exempt IRS status, or should they be detained for questioning by the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Hmmm, tough call.



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208 Comments

  1. Clean it up in '07 said on 27 Jul 2007 at 1:08 am:
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    The third world mentality cracks me up. I used to date a girl who grew up in the Panama Canal Zone. She used to tell me that her liberal parents wanted so badly to jump into any uprising; so what they would usually do is send their maids to the uprising in the family Mercedes so they could shake their fists out of the sunroof, beep the horn, and shake their fist out of the windows.

    Not really sure what the point of this is….you all just figure it out. My girlfriend was hot (another pointless statement…I just want everybody to know…still).

  2. Gurduloo said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:05 am:
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    Well I for one hope the revolution comes quickly… and succeeds! Then the US will be a workers paradise. Just like China and Cuba!!! :)

  3. freedom said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:17 am:
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    Well Gurduloo, why don’t you quickly hop on a plane (or in a lil row boat) and get yoself to “paradise” as quickly as you can, instead of foolin’ around, wasting time here!!?? :) :)

  4. redawn said on 27 Jul 2007 at 8:06 am:
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    I drove by the meeting last night with my husband and neighbor. We saw ALOT of cars full of passengers and alot of walkers. It was a big turn out. HOWEVER, they may have numbers but how many are legal citizens and CAN VOTE?

  5. Anonymous said on 27 Jul 2007 at 8:29 am:
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    This is no more the the face of pro-immigrant as the KKK is the face of “Help Save Manassas” but both extremes will use this opportunity to express themselves. Let cooler heads prevail and stay on task . If we continue to demonize both sides it will only get ugly and the issues will get lost in the hate. There are good people on both sides, bring them together and find a solution which works.

  6. Greg L said on 27 Jul 2007 at 8:58 am:
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    Actually this is the group that is spearheading the illegal alien lobby in Prince William and Manassas. This is the mainstream opposition, the one that spoke against the resolution on July 10th, and received national television coverage for their rally outside of the Board of County Supervisors after the vote, the one holding the press conferences and holding meetings in Prince William County, and the one calling for a boycott and a one day strike.

    If there are good people on the other side of this, they’ve been taking a back seat to these folks.

  7. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:08 am:
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    If you want to keep this issue as a problem of legal vs illegal 9as many of you religiously profess). You need to stop the name calling. Mexicans Without Borders are not Zapatists and you know that. If you are the mainstream group and not the KKK then bring serious point to the dialogue

  8. AWCheney said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:10 am:
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    Well, if their boycott and one day strike is as successful as the big one they had last year throughout the DC Metro area on Cinco de Mayo, we will once more experience less traffic, safer roads, and a day of peace. As I recall, it was so successful that they cancelled this year.

  9. Rick Bentley said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:51 am:
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    The boycott people want to spend less money in Prince William - spend less time in stores, less time at restaurants - can they just add not buying homes and not renting apartments or rooms in Prince William to the list, then I think we have acheived a perfect common ground that is in all our interests.

    Attention all illegals - if you live in Prince William, your property tax - part of your rent to your landlord, for the many of you renting rooms - funds our government and Board of Supervisors much more than sales tax on food or gasoline does. Don’t live here and playact like you’re going to “boycott”.

  10. Legal2 said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:58 am:
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    Let’s make sure that we all go out and shop in the greater Manassas area on the day of their boycott. Last year when they held their boycott, I enjoyed shopping for a change. Easier maneuvering inside the stores as well as the parking lots and roads. Make it an end of summer sale or school shopping day. Let’s counter-revolutionize.

  11. Rick Bentley said on 27 Jul 2007 at 10:00 am:
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    Greg - you call these people “the group that is spearheading the illegal alien lobby”. From a distance it seems to me - tell me if I’m wrong - the real unholy alliance is between construction firms and business owners, and their tools in our government (all levels). I believe construction firms donate more money to local politicians than any other type of business?

    Apartments are being built, subsidized by Federal and/or State money (8A complexes), by companies that hire illegals, nobody seems to give a damn. For example, Clark Realty (Clark Construction Group) at the intersection of Ashton and Rosemary. All our local politicians care about is covering their ass, making sure Clark has some fake SSNs on file.

    I don’t understand why we (I’m in HSM - this is a psuedonym) don’t attack this angle.

  12. freedom said on 27 Jul 2007 at 10:01 am:
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    TH said…

    “…If you are the mainstream group and not the KKK then bring serious point to the dialogue.”

    OK, here’s a serious point for ya: Whether this country has borders or not is an issue for citizens of this country to decide, not those Mexicans who were so disenchanted that they had to come north and enter this country illegally.

    No name calling, no racism, no KKK, just simple fact, TH…

  13. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 10:08 am:
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    Again you are calling all of them Mexicans. It is a well known fact that the stonger communities in the area are the Central Americans. T

  14. Jonathan Mark said on 27 Jul 2007 at 10:12 am:
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    If any of the Mexicanos Sin Fronteras people do get deported I know who they should call: Gill and Gallinger, who for a fee will argue that the “UN Convention Against Torture” prohibits the outrageous injustice of deporting a Gill and Gallinger client to a corrupt police state where people are beaten and raped in prisons blah blah blah.

    Here is the Gill and Gallinger ad, just in case any Mexicanos Sin Fronteras people have missed it:

    “”"”We can also help you apply for Withholding of Removal (allowing you stay in the U.S. when otherwise eligible for deportation) and gaining protection based on the United Nations Convention Against Torture.

    Deportation/RemovalEven if you or your loved one is already in the process of being removed from the U.S., Gill & Gallinger may be able to help. We can help you qualify for protection from deportation based on Cancellation of Removal, Waiver of Deportation, Asylum, or other methods. Time is extremely important in situations dealing with possible removal, so contact the Gill & Gallinger today for a free consultation.”"”"

    If Gill and Gallinger is getting illegal immigrant deportee clients now, just think how many it will get if Gill ever entered the Virginia legislature. Deportees will think, “I have a Virginia delegate representing me. He will help me stay in the US, which I have a right to do because I have decided that I want to live here.”

  15. Advocator said on 27 Jul 2007 at 10:15 am:
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    To Rick Bentley:

    “I don’t understand why we (I’m in HSM - this is a psuedonym) don’t attack this angle.” [Construction companies hiring illegals]

    It’s all in the works. This stuff takes time. We’re dealing with a situation that took several years to develop. It won’t be overturned in a few months. Keep a long position on this investment, and stay focused.

  16. Barbara Cummings said on 27 Jul 2007 at 10:35 am:
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    Does anyone have a link to the Wapo article that detailed the situation of the two illegal flagmen who work for a subcontractor of VA transportation?

  17. Bob Sentz said on 27 Jul 2007 at 10:38 am:
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    TH-I don’t see a group called Cental Americans Without Borders. I believe the group is called mexicans Without Borders. And, it’s the mexican flag I see waving around at these ‘rallys’.

  18. Bob Sentz said on 27 Jul 2007 at 10:43 am:
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    Barbara- Is this what you’re looking for: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/14/AR2007071401104.html

  19. Barbara Cummings said on 27 Jul 2007 at 10:52 am:
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    Yes Bob, Thanks. This excerpt bears repeating:

    “They’re talking about this in Jefferson County, in Clarke, all the way to West Virginia,” Adrian Escobar said in Spanish, sipping from a Big Gulp cup outside a pupusa kiosk on Route 1. He and his brother Antonio dashed across the border from Mexico nearly 15 years ago and have been in the United States illegally since. They live in Winchester and make $17 an hour as flagmen for a Virginia Department of Transportation subcontractor.

    The Escobar brothers shrugged at all the fretting they’d been hearing from other Hispanics last week, including workers who commute to Prince William to do its grunt work. “Who else is going to pave the roads here?” Adrian asked, cracking up with laughter. “An American? Ha!”

    Antonio said he wasn’t fazed. “If you’re afraid, they’ll just intimidate you more,” he said. Besides, he added, the brothers have a plan in case Prince William police and immigration officials send them home for a “free vacation” to their father’s farm in Guanajuato.

    “We’ll be right back here in a month,” Antonio said.

  20. Bob Sentz said on 27 Jul 2007 at 10:55 am:
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    TH- I forget to mention that mexicans Without Borders are most definitely associated with the Zapatistas!!! Ever seen one of their banners with the mug shot, I mean, picture of Mr. Zapata?

  21. Legal2 said on 27 Jul 2007 at 11:21 am:
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    TH - what’s wrong with starting with the Mexicanos, since they are out front in their lobbying and then we can work southward. Besides getting strong on illegals applies to all illegals. I’m sure there are more than a few central americans that would be affected anyway, so what’s in a name? Illegal is illegal.

  22. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 11:30 am:
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    And Emiliano Zapata is a Zapatista? or are you talking about Subcomandante Marcos who is actually a Zapatista.

    Emiliano Zapata Salazar (August 8, 1879–April 10, 1919) was a leading figure in the Mexican Revolution, which broke out in 1910, and which was initially directed against the dictatorship of Porfirio Díaz. He formed and commanded an important revolutionary force, the Liberation Army of the South.

    This guy wasn’t even alive when the Zapatistas started.

    Bob Sentz,
    My point was that you should stop referring to all illegal aliens as Mexicans. It is true that you don’t see Central Americans without Borders out there. The fact that I have seen some posts coming from White Supremacist groups here doesn’t mean that all anti-illegal aliens are members of that group.

    Talk about real facts, numbers, not just anecdotes and namecalling. When I ask about references showing how bankrupt your hospital system is, people divert the discussion to my grammar or being pro immigrant.
    I am convinced with facts and not rethoric

  23. Legal2 said on 27 Jul 2007 at 11:57 am:
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    From Time Magazine, “WHO LEFT THE DOOR OPEN?” by Bartlett & Steele, September 12, 2004:

    “The plight of Jim Dickson, a hospital administrator in Bisbee, Arizona summed it up in one image,” Barlett wrote. “It’s an ambulance that pulls into Copper Queen Hospital and discharges illegal aliens injured in an auto accident. The border patrol officers on orders from Washington refused to take them onto the property. Instead, the officers call an ambulance for the injured so the U.S. Government won’t be responsible for hospital costs. Instead, Dickson’s hospital gets stiffed.”

    In 2003, 77 border state hospitals spiraled into bankruptcy. Instead of putting troops on the borders to stop the invasion, Arizona Senators McCain and Kyle added a $1.4 billion bailout rider onto a Medicaid bill. Instead of doing their jobs, they made taxpayers vomit their hard-earned money into paying for the invasion’s consequences. Result? It wasn’t enough. Three Los Angeles area hospitals bankrupted already this year. Dickson’s small hospital lost $1.4 million in the past three years. “The more free care we give,” he said, “the more we have to ration what’s left.”

    “The highest levels of the U.S. and Mexican governments have orchestrated this situation as a kind of dance,” Steele reported. “Mexico sends its poor north to take jobs illegally and the U.S. arrests enough border crossers to create the illusion that it is enforcing immigration laws while allowing the majority to get through.”

    “From October 1, 2003 to July 20, 2004, the border patrol’s Tucson sector stopped 9,051 person crossing illegal who had criminal records in the U.S., meaning they committed crimes here, returned to Mexico, then were trying to re-enter the country,” Barlett wrote. “A minimum of 378 had active warrants for their arrest.”

    “The numbers suggest that tens of thousands of criminals, quite possibly hundreds of thousands, treat the border as a revolving door to crimes of opportunity,” Steele wrote. “The situation is so out of control that 400,000 illegal aliens who have been ordered deported, 80,000 have criminal records, but Homeland Security does not have a clue as to the whereabouts of any of them, including those from countries that support terrorism.”

  24. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:22 pm:
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    “In 2003, 77 border state hospitals spiraled into bankruptcy” I don’t see the Prince William Hospital System getting to this level. They are building a new Outpatient Facilty to get to their customers more efficiently.
    Do you see a rpoblem here in Manassas? Numbers I mean not just the story that I heard that someone heard…….

    Legal2,
    There is no problem with starting with Mexicans but my point was abpout namecalling.

  25. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:24 pm:
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    “Who else is going to pave the roads here?” Adrian asked, cracking up with laughter. “An American? Ha!”
    Well there is a point there. Driving around this country the group you see taking these jobs is mostly Hispanic.

  26. Steve Thomas said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:25 pm:
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    TH,

    The dots are pretty well connected, starting with Unity in the Community. This group lobbies on behalf of, raises money for, has provided material support to, and is in complete solidarity with, the Woodbridge Workers Committee (WWC). Additionally, several of Unity in the Community’s key members are also members of WWC. John Steinbach is a shining example of this. WWC, led by Ricard Juarez, is a wholey owned subsidiary of Mexicanos Sin Fronteras, which is a wholey owned subsidiary of the EZLN, the ZAPATISTA ARMY OF NATIONAL LIBERATION!(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EZLN).

    This is the group leading the charge against PWC, in the media, in the public forum, etc. etc.

    So, when Greg (as blogger BVBL and as HSM President) refers to these people as “Zapatisas” he is being intelectually honest. When people who refer to this group collectively as Mexicans, considering that the lead advocacy group is “Mexicanos Sin Fronteras” represents illegal MEXICANS living in the US, the only thing that they are guilty of is not being all conclusive in their descriptions. Perhaps “Mexicans et. al.”

    Now maybe you were not aware of the relationships between these groups, but I suspect otherwise. I suspect that you are a shill for the open-borders lobby, and might even be a member of one of the above-listed groups. So instead of splitting hairs, how about finding some intelectual honesty yourself?

  27. redawn said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:33 pm:
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    TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:24 pm:
    This is not about Hispanics, it was the fact that they were hired by VDOT and are illegal. The attitude of “we’ll be right back here in a month”, is also the issue.

  28. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:36 pm:
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    Which country/countries of origin do MOST of the recent illegal aliens come from? Which country/countries of origin has abused our immigration laws the MOST in recent times? Th…any thoughts?

  29. redawn said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:38 pm:
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    re:redawn said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:33 pm:

    CORRECTION, I meant regaurding what:
    TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:24 pm:

  30. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 12:48 pm:
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    http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:dsaaSEtWuA0J:www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/illegal.pdf+illegal+alien+statistics&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=25&gl=us
    A little help.

  31. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 1:27 pm:
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    “Now maybe you were not aware of the relationships between these groups, but I suspect otherwise. I suspect that you are a shill for the open-borders lobby, and might even be a member of one of the above-listed groups”
    And you Steve are KKK and White Supremacist. Because these groups are the ones who just wanta white America. Youa re racist and all thet is wrong in the worl just because i have the feeling that yoiu are bad…. Just Kidding.
    It is just to make my case that you cannot put people into specific groups just because you think so.
    I am in favor of legal immigration. I have said in other post that assimilation is the key to success in this country.
    I don’t like the just calling names to prove an argument. You convince me if you show me facts and real sources. I am a social scientist by trade so I am used to present numbers and prove my point.
    I need to verify that the assertion you make about MWB is correct and not just your gut feeling. I give you the benefit of the doubt. However, the Zapatistas don’t move freeely through Mexico and I doubt that thet have access to financial resources or time to fight for a movement in old town Manassas.

  32. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 1:33 pm:
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    redawn,
    I understand that a lot of the problems we see have to do with certain attitude that is perceived the wrong way by Americans. What can you expect from mostly uneducated people? Ignorance is the same here or San Salvador.

  33. BL said on 27 Jul 2007 at 1:36 pm:
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    How long can America survive?
    I read many posts on the net from Compassion concerned Americans advocating Amnesty and even open borders! Many label any of us concerned about both as racist, & worse. I can certainly understand their Compassion. I have lived in third world counties & seen the horrible conditions they live with, hunger & poverty on a scale most Americans cannot imagine. In fact, if I could have ignored the hungry kids begging I would probably still be living there. But I made the same mistakes there that many of the Amnesty and open borders advocates are making here. At first I gave a few coins to the little filthy starving kids living on the streets, after all it cost me so little and did so much for them. But the next day where there had been three there would be 10 the day after 50 until it got to the point where it was impossible for me to help. If I had given them everything I had it would have helped them 1 day and put me in their condition. The USA gives Billions in foreign aid, we take in more legal Immigrates then the rest of the world combined. But no matter how Compassion we are we cannot ignore economics 101 we cannot become the welfare state for the world with our open borders and an unlimited supply of virtually slave labor. We are lowering the standard of living for all working Americans by both decreasing the wages and increasing the social costs & damage to this Nation in every area from, Crime, Corruption of our Politicians, Business leaders, Pollution, Energy use, Water, Congestion, Welfare, Medical costs, Education, Insurance etc. There are those that say the solution is simple give them amnesty so they will pay taxes etc. However, Illegal Aliens have an average of a 6 grade Education which compares to a 3 grade education even by our very poor education standards. So they are averaging consuming 3 dollars in social services for every dollar they pay in. With their high birth rate and low income nearly all will get income tax credit from 1500 to 3200 returned every year & come nowhere near paying in enough to pay the average 7K to 10K each year costs to send their children to school. Considering inflation the Average income for Americans has been decreasing every year for the last 20 years! In the long run trying to be compassion and help the illegals pouring across our open borders helps no one and hurts all. Nothing is accomplished by turning this into another third world nation which is already started & if we give this Amnesty for the far more number quoted of 12 millions by the Government & all there chain immigration we are looking at adding probably at least 100 million of poorly educated Citizens an underclass that will quickly become unsustainable. Then you will see riots and fires burning from coast to coast! Far better to close our borders and if necessary pay every Illegal Aliens here 100k to return to their home country and/or start a Marshall plan for Latin American!

  34. Greg L said on 27 Jul 2007 at 1:36 pm:
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    I have extensively documented the connection between the EZLN and Mexicanos Sin Fronteras using information obtained from the Mexicanos Sin Fronteras website and the statements of Ricardo Juarez as reported in the media. It is worth noting that the orginal name for the WWC/MSF was the Zapatista Committee of the Knitted Cap, in reference to the fashion statement displayed in the photo above. Mr. Juarz and Mr. Steinbach, as well as Ms. Jacinto and Ms. Lyall have conducted workshops on Zapatista organizing principles in the US, and Mr. Juarez has made public statements regarding his support for the EZLN.

    Go back through the threads in the category “Zapatistas” on this site, and you will find extensive documentation in this regard. That you refuse to acknowledge that this clear association exists speaks to a possibility of selective perception on your behalf.

  35. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 1:40 pm:
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    “Which country/countries of origin do MOST of the recent illegal aliens come from? Which country/countries of origin has abused our immigration laws the MOST in recent times? Th…any thoughts?”
    Mexico, sure
    Whic groups opposed the most to people who are not White?
    White Supremacist who are racist,
    Help Save Manassas opposes Mexicans,
    Help Save Manssas is a racist .

    You see the logic. It doesn’t work that way. Why do you insist on using everywhere you post (assumming thta you are the sam Patriot I see in the WAPO that you hate but read).

    It is a fact that the majority of illegal aliens in this country are Mexicans but not all of them. THAT IS MY POINT! Despite the fact that you are suggesting that both terms mean the same then you are getting very close to term that is hated here the most: Racist.
    I am not accusing you of being one of them because in most of your post you talk about that this issue is Illegal vs Legal. However your comments tell me that not all illegal aliens are equal, right?
    Did you see the illegal aliens from Ireland with their flags during the May 1 March? There were Salvadoran, Nicaraguan, Honduran, Colombian, and Polish flags there but you insist on calling them Mexicans.

  36. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 1:43 pm:
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    You see Greg. When you give me facts I accept your point. You are right and I see the connection. My point is that not all people should be put into categories because you feel it that way. That is all. I see the connection and for the record I accept your argument: call the group Zapatista. However not all illegal aliens are Zapatistas. Would you agree with that?

  37. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 1:46 pm:
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    “Start a Marshall plan for Latin American!”
    I see here a start in terms of finding the solutions by going to the root of the problem. I think that this government should work harder on forcing some of this countries to invest on their own.

  38. freedom said on 27 Jul 2007 at 1:48 pm:
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    OK, TH, enough on this confusion about “name calling”….you said:

    “If you want to keep this issue as a problem of legal vs illegal 9as many of you religiously profess). You need to stop the name calling. Mexicans Without Borders are not Zapatists and you know that. If you are the mainstream group and not the KKK then bring serious point to the dialogue”

    At your request and because of your reference to “Mexicans Without Borders,” I posed the serious point: “Whether this country has borders or not is an issue for citizens of this country to decide, not those Mexicans who were so disenchanted that they had to come north and enter this country illegally.”

    I assumed that members of the organization “Mexicans Without Borders” are Mexicans…but perhaps not. The “serious point” I posed, however is equally applicable to aliens of ANY nationality who would be so brazen as to suggest that America have no borders. Again, no name calling, no racism, no KKK, just simple fact, TH

  39. Steve Thomas said on 27 Jul 2007 at 1:50 pm:
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    TH,

    Perhaps you aren’t a shill, but rather not yet fully convinced. Ever see how the Feds take down a crime organization? They connect the players, which gives them a true picture of what the organization does, from the lowliest wise-guy on the street, to the Cappos, right up to the Don.

    This same approach, which we have applied to the groups I mentioned previously, shows the relationships. They have common members across these groups. They are mutually supporting. They are co-signats of charters and manifestos. The connections have been made, and they are real.

    This is the real opposition. It isn’t that poor schlub standing outside of 7/11 looking for work, or marching in protest because Ricardo Jaurez told him to. People like Juarez, Lyall, Jacinto, Steinbach, Rishell, Fox, Borjas aren’t looking out for the interests of their community. They are motivated by power, and their desire to be the intellectual elites of this community. Classic marxist thinking.

    Since you say you are a social scientist, you can appreciate that you must make observations over time, in order to find the relationships, causes, effects and trends. We’ve been watching these people and their organizations for a long, long time.

  40. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 2:03 pm:
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    Th…what would you say about the NCLR? Are they racist? Afterall, all they do is advocate furthering hispanics/latinos (and no one else) for policy making purposes. What about that? Policies should be made for the good of ALL legal individuals (not being in favor of one group over another). The last time I checked…there are no caucasion advocate groups that lobby our elected officials. However, NCLR is a heavy lobbying entity.

  41. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 2:05 pm:
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    Freedom and Steve,
    I like the dialogue and the tone used. I think that to solve this problem people will nee to braisntorm seriously. it is not as simple a ssend them all back. It is expensive and quite unrealistic. Is it attrition by enforcement? Maybe but I doubt it because of the market. I think the issue is not only about open borders but a problem that this economy got used to cheap labor.
    You can penalize the illegal aliens for taking the jobs but what about the employers?
    Nothing get done about that. I know that George Taplin takes pictures of employers and denounces them but in general people take it against the product of that sick system.
    Are you willing to start doing something against those emplying illegal aliens? Not buying houses built by them, etc, etc?
    Regarding the groups behind the immigration movement I think they are very inexperienced in terms of their choices (boycotts, national anthem in Spanish, etc). The problem with the illegal alien issue is that it brings a lot of passion to the table and rational and realistic discussions are lost.
    Thanks for bringing good point to the blog.

  42. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 2:07 pm:
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    Th…all that needs to be done is heavily fine and revoke the business licenses of businesses that hire illegal aliens and cut all social benefits (welfare, WIC, foodstamps, free medical, free education, subsidized housing, etc.) that are given to illegals and their families (that help them to operate and are incentives). Very simple.

  43. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 2:07 pm:
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    Patriot,
    What would you say about Jesse Jackson? Is he racist? or how about Obama?
    Latinos are just starting to grow in this system and it is just a natural result of that progression to start supporting each other through all these groups. It happened in the past with the Irish, Italians, and Germans.
    Ther are some groups who only support Jewish causes and I don’t think they are racist.

  44. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 2:11 pm:
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    Th…have you heard Janet (CEO from NCLR) speak? All she talks about is hispanic/latino this and that. What she should be saying is…legal hispanics/latinos should join with all other groups and work for the good of all Americans. However, that is not how she approaches things. Jesse Jackson stirs the pot on race issues all the time…that is how he earns his living. What do you mean Latinos are just growing into this system of ours? They have been around a long time.

  45. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 2:14 pm:
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    Th…would you say that the majority of the new wave of hispanics/latinos want to join the American “melting pot” or remain as a separate group based on ethnicity?

  46. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 2:40 pm:
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    Th…while I am on the subject…if we Americans decided to go to Mexico (or any other country for that matter) and demanded that they start speaking English and doing things “the American Way”…do you think those countries would “change their culture” for us? Please be honest.

  47. Steve Thomas said on 27 Jul 2007 at 2:43 pm:
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    “What would you say about Jesse Jackson? Is he racist? ”

    Yes. I would call the man who called New York City “Hymie Town”, who has publically denegrated Jews, a racist.

  48. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 2:48 pm:
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    I am still waiting for Th to answer my direct questions above.

  49. a nonny mouse said on 27 Jul 2007 at 2:49 pm:
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    It is a liberal tenet that only white people can be racist.

  50. redawn said on 27 Jul 2007 at 2:59 pm:
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    TO ALL,,
    HAPPY FRIDAY, I will be gone for a week or 2 so, I just wanted to let you, that if someone wants to respond to me and I don’t answer back I AM NOT A COWARD or whatever else :) THANKS
    :) PEACE OUT~

  51. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 3:06 pm:
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    1. Th…would you say that the majority of the new wave of hispanics/latinos want to join the American “melting pot” or remain as a separate group based on ethnicity?

    2. Th…while I am on the subject…if we Americans decided to go to Mexico (or any other country for that matter) and demanded that they start speaking English and doing things “the American Way”…do you think those countries would “change their culture” for us? Please be honest.

    Please everyone…let Th answer these questions before anyone else posts. These are very important.

  52. Gurduloo said on 27 Jul 2007 at 3:23 pm:
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    “would you say that the majority of the new wave of hispanics/latinos want to join the American “melting pot” or remain as a separate group based on ethnicity?”

    How is this even relevant to illegal immigration? If a person comes here legally and becomes a citizen, they’re absolutely free to keep or discard their own culture as they see fit (think about the Amish here) - that’s the American way. And if someone comes here illegally, should it matter to you if they try to fit in or not? It’s questions like these that make me think you people just don’t like hispanic people.

  53. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 3:27 pm:
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    I’m curious. This site says:

    Blog-Fu for Prince William, Manassas and Manassas Park politics.

    Illegal immigrants from Mexico immigrants are not remotely high in numbers in Northern Virginia compared to illegal immigrant Salvadorans and other Central Americans or indeed other nationalities. Why is it that so many of you all have a fixation on Mexicans on a blog that is specifically about the “problem” as you see it in this particular region? Even if Mexicans represent the largest population in the group you oppose nationwide, why do you use Mexicans as an umbrella term when discussing the issue in a thread that is specific to politics of PW, M, and MP?

    Oh. There are Americans who go to other countries all the time and demand that people speak English. They are called tourists.
    Kidding, sort of, but it is interesting to see how little many Americans care to even try to learn a greeting or a thank you for the places they visit. They are famous for it and even if exaggerated as a reputation, it is definitely a phenomena.

  54. Batson D. Belfrey said on 27 Jul 2007 at 3:33 pm:
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    BornHere,

    *Sighs*, please go back a READ the discussion. It’s “Mexicans without Borders” that is being commented on, not Mexicans.

    Do you live in Manassas Park? That would explain a lot.

  55. park'd said on 27 Jul 2007 at 3:45 pm:
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    Just start ignoring Bornhere. She is not interested in defending the issues. She is only interested in the art of wordsmithing and arguing semantics. You say “to-MAY-to” and she asks you to defend why you didn’t say “to-MAH-to” instead of responding to the original question where tomato was just a single word used in a sentence.

    Batson is correct. Any of you that don’t live in PWC, the park or some other locality where illegals have ravaged are not qualified to argue the pro-illegal line. If you live in my town and STILL want to defend what they have done then please by all means continue. If not then beat it.

  56. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 3:59 pm:
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    Being a tourist is much different than trying to reside somewhere and demanding the whole culture change. Nice try Bornhere. Why don’t you answer my questions bornhere?

  57. park'd said on 27 Jul 2007 at 3:59 pm:
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    I also think it’s great that the illegals are learning to get together and form groups that support each other to demand change. I think it’s very sad and very shameful that they didn’t have the wherewithal to manage to do this in their own countries. I suggest that they take this newfound strength and solidarity back to their home countries and institute a revolution there, throw out all the sh1tbird politicians, police and drug lords that have been milking them dry for almost two hundred years and create their own America south of the border.

    It’s so funny for me to see how many billy badass illegals there are here in America demanding rights and forming groups to counter our citizen groups when they don’t have the balls to do it in their own countries. Fortune favors the bold my illegal friends. Go home and claim your fortune and take it out of the hands of the bourgeoisie that have been stealing from you nonstop for two hundred years. You are not needed nor wanted here. Come back legally later on if you so choose and you can be my neighbor and my friend.

  58. manassascityresident said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:02 pm:
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    Perfectly said, Park’d !

  59. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:07 pm:
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    I have another question. Why are the hispanics/latinos so concerned with illegal immigration crackdowns if they are doing nothing wrong (either residing here illegally or aiding and abetting illegals)? Seems to me that no other group of people are protesting???

  60. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:08 pm:
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    Park’d, I am not arguing semantics when I ask whether it is legitimate to use Mexicans as a stand-in term for “illegal immigrant” either when one discusses Latino illegal immigrants or illegal immigrants as a whole. It is something I have noticed a great deal in this and other forums and I suspect it is significant. If you need me to say why I think it is significant I will. Others have also brought it up, however you only choose to be hostile to me.

    If you think it is fine to talk about illegal immigrants in this area as though most were Mexican, that’s good to know. But I was asking a real question whether you choose to believe that or not.

    I live in Arlington, a community with a lot of illegal immigrants. However there is no anti-illegal immigrant movement comparable to what you all have so achieved in PW and I doubt there ever will be. And before you make assumptions, no, I do not live at a distance from them. They share the small apartment complex I live in, the bus I ride every day, the stores I shop at, etc. I have daily firsthand experience, which is one reason I am sympathetic to them. Your firsthand experience has created the opposite sentiment.

    But in any case, I thought this was an open forum given the hundreds of posts I read in other threads from people new to the blog after the Post story. If it is a closed forum for only people from PW, M, or MP, or for only those Northern Virginians who would use the word “ravaged” to describe the impact of illegal immigrants on their home, then I guess I was mistaken. I would just then ask that Greg as forum owner specify that up top so that anyone who thought the forum was in the American tradition of free and open civil exchange would know they were in error. Greg?

  61. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:08 pm:
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    Th…would you say that the majority of the new wave of hispanics/latinos want to join the American “melting pot” or remain as a separate group based on ethnicity?
    Yes they are assimilating but you have to take into consideration that assimilation takes a while to consolidate. Research (Portes) shows that the 1.5 and second generations assimilates faster than their parents. Two, in your area you see a constant influx of new immigrants and the ones you see are just fresh out of water so the myth that they are not assimilating is perpetuated. In places such as Chicago. The big wave of hispanic immigrants cam in the 30s’. The second and third generation have assimilated and now particpate in the political system Tancredo is just a third generation Italian 9 a congressmen after just three generations). It is not that this wave of immigrants is different, it is just that it is early in the game.
    The first generation has always found troubles with assimilation but their kids are learning the language and the only societal frame of reference that they have is this country. The old country is the place of the stories told by the parents but they don’t have anything else to compare with but this country. The fact that they are debating about calling themselves Latinos or Hispanic is just a natural way of finding their identity(WAPO article yesterday)

    2. Th…while I am on the subject…if we Americans decided to go to Mexico (or any other country for that matter) and demanded that they start speaking English and doing things “the American Way”…do you think those countries would “change their culture” for us? Please be honest.

    There are a lot of american living now in Mexico and they are not demanding anything but tyhere was a nice story just recently in NPR about them. They have opened their own supermarkets. The most popular product: peanut butter.

    I don’t think that people should demand their own way of doing things. In other postings I have said very clearly: in order to succeed in this country you need to learn English, learn the history of this country, and respect the laws.

    I don’t see any disagreement in terms of what I think tyhey need to do to be successful. We might disagree about the characterizations and the fact that you have never responded to my questions with real numbers.
    the INS/FBI numbers are yours, right? If those are not yours sorry.

  62. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:09 pm:
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    Give it up born…what part of Arlington? I go through the main part of Arlington almost daily and don’t see anything like what I see in PWC. Arlington is a Santuary City too!

  63. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:11 pm:
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    Bornhere:
    1. Would you say that the majority of the new wave of hispanics/latinos want to join the American “melting pot” or remain as a separate group based on ethnicity?

    2. If we Americans decided to go to Mexico (or any other country for that matter) and demanded that they start speaking English and doing things “the American Way”…do you think those countries would “change their culture” for us? Please be honest and just answer the questions with concise answers.

  64. Bubba Joe said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:12 pm:
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    Hey, I’m really sick of these lawbreakers coming to our towns. Only the American flag should be flown–this is American, not Mexico. When they come here they don’t even bother to learn English. I think it’s high time we run these folks out of here if they won’t conform to our way of life. Every one of them is a disgrace with their inability to obey the law.

    Folks want to come here, they need to do it legally or not at all. And I rather they choose not at all. Our founding fathers wouldn’t have put up with an influx of people can’t talk right and didn’t know which flag to fly. I moved to Prince William thinking it was a decent place where you could fly the Flag and talk English and have real restaurants, not these sleazy taco joints everywhere. And you used to see English on all the signs, and now I can’t even read half of them.

    Y’all need to go back where you came from if you want to have chickens in your yard and invite anyone you want to live in your home and drive your lowriders all over the place and join gangs.

  65. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:14 pm:
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    Patriot, what questions were those? Did you address questions to me? I see you addressed a few to TH and admonished the rest of us to stay away for a bit.

    I also explicitly said I was “kidding, sort of” when I talked about tourists. However I go overseas a lot and I do find it annoying that I see how many American tourists fail to learn and use the local hello, goodbye, thank you, or excuse me. My exposure to people here who don’t speak English is that they do learn, at minimum, those kinds of words. But it was a passing point. No need to get your red, white, and blue knickers in a twist.

  66. ateacher said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:14 pm:
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    Patriot,
    The Fed Govt already has restrictions against non legal citizens obtaining food stamps, housing, medicaid etc. As for WIC, I’m not sure what the restrictions are, as WIC vouchers are distributed by health depts and not by social services. WIC vouchers are food specific and vouchers are given to either pregnant women or those with children under the age of five.I do know as a former WIC recipient that one must requalify for WIC each month by going to the health dept with a paystub and one must bring the child/ren each time to be weighed. The income qualifications are not as strict for WIC as they are for food stamps, and one cannot receive both. I haven’t seen any numbers as to how many illegals receive food stamps, and fraud does exist. But if the Dept of Social Services is doing their job correctly then the numbers are probably lower than many think.

    As for education…that’s a moot point unless the supreme court ruling is overturned, and overturning rulings is a time consuming process. And who’s to say whether or not the supreme court would deny education for the US born children.

  67. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:15 pm:
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    Patriot, oh, I see. Your questions have now appeared with a refreshed screen. It was like emails crossing. Let me take a look.

  68. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:16 pm:
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    Patriot,
    Crack them down? How long do you think it will take to finish the job? The ICE says that it cost $10,000 to deport and illegal alien. Would you go for that?
    The Eisenhower number out there is not real. He rounded 500,000 and it is believed that 700,000 went back on its own. Not three million.
    That is fine with me if that is the solution but the “attack on middle class America” is not caused just by the illegal alien issue.
    Again, you don’t respond to any of my questions about DC. Predominantly Black in some wards. Is that OK with you? What do you think about people on welfare? Why do middle class america lack the skills to compete in the world? Get rid of all immigrants and then you will have to face the real issues. The utopian economy that we have is not ready to compete in the world because it is not efficient.
    10 Billion dollars spent on Iraq every month for what? The illegals are not there and how do you morally justify that? tell me why you let the government spent like crazy and let the chinese to subsidize our way of living. We live in a bubble and many people are just happy to see us fighting for the illegal immigration bone.

  69. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:17 pm:
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    ateacher, we need to have the birthright citizenship issue resolved to eliminate the anchor baby situation. Bornhere….4 posts up are the questions for you.

  70. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:19 pm:
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    Th…what do you mean the middle class don’t have the skills? This issue has nothing to do with skills. It has everything to do with business wanting to make more profit using cheap labor. Please answer the questions I posed above.

  71. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:20 pm:
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    Th…what about DC? Welfare should only be temporary. No one should be able to live off of it for their entire lives.

  72. The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:27 pm:
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    Th…you did not answer my questions as I posed them. They address the “majority” of new wave of hispanics/latinos. Please re-address my questions with this in mind.

  73. Citizens by choice said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:51 pm:
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    Yes, Citizen by choice is the answare, not by accident!

  74. Citizens by choice said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:52 pm:
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    All those childrens parents need to become citizens

  75. CONVA said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:59 pm:
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    Not worth a comment until we get serious about getting these cretins out of OUR country.

  76. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 5:10 pm:
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    Patriot, Sorry for the lack of a yes or no concise answer, but frankly these issues are of too much import for that.

    Patriot asked:

    1. Would you say that the majority of the new wave of hispanics/latinos want to join the American “melting pot” or remain as a separate group based on ethnicity?

    First, I would say that the melting pot concept has altered since the Ellis Island era and the immediate decades that followed it. Since the late 60s-70s, people have spoken more in terms of salads more than fondues and that goes for all kinds of separate groups in our society, not just immigrants. I realize you may be horrified by such a separate but mixed together image, but there it is. And that happened LONG before immigration had once again become a major issue in American politics, so I would not blame the recent Latinos for it.

    To get back to your question, I think that a majority of the Latinos newly here (I notice you did not specify legal or illegal status) will inevitably join the melting pot as much as, say, the Koreans are, the Vietnamese are, the Ethiopians, etc. etc. have and already are exhibiting signs of doing so.

    I don’t think you will ever again see the kind of blunting of ethnic identity that occurred in previous generations of immigrants whether they are Latino or other new arrivals. There are lots of reasons for this and I can go into them if you would like. But in general, yes, I think that they are already in the process of assimilating in the same way the enclaves of past generations assimilated, even though those enclaves were also accused of all the same things you accuse the Latinos of. This is not even to mention the fact that certain groups of non-immigrants in American society have also routinely been accused of non-assimilation to mainstream culture and have being clannish.

    In any case, every day I hear Latino, East Asian, and other kids respond back to their mothers in English when their mothers spoke to them in the mothers’ native languages. Every day I hear immigrants’ kids playing with each other using English. I can give other examples. Most importantly, I am not sure why I should be offended by Latinos having businesses, customs, etc. that are their own. Every past and present-day immigrant community of any number has had them. Should I really object more to the El Chapparal grocery store on Wilson Blvd. than I object to an entire Eden Center full of Vietnamese businesses or to what was once Little Italy in New York? I admit one of the things I get the greatest kick out of are the interactions of immigrants from different places. Because I ride the bus a lot very very late at night with people who work in the hotels/restaurants etc. in G’town, I hear conversations in usually broken or better English, between people who work together, or wait at the bus stop together. I like seeing how Latinos go to Pho 75 and have Vietnamese soup or to Delhi Dhaba for the weekend buffet, etc. etc. I am a cosmopolitan person, so shoot me. Wait, don’t take that literally Mr. Patriot. You may well have an arsenal.

    2. If we Americans decided to go to Mexico (or any other country for that matter) and demanded that they start speaking English and doing things “the American Way”…do you think those countries would “change their culture” for us? Please be honest and just answer the questions with concise answers.

    I disagree that immigrants in this country have indeed come here and demanded that everyone start speaking their languages and doing things in the way of their respective nationalities. Assuming you are referring to Latinos (though you don’t say), I don’t think that holds for the various nationalities under that umbrella term either. I think government and business in this country make decisions to add Spanish to some products or forms or phone answering systems etc. *primarily* for their own convenience or (very important) profit because of the population numbers involved and not out of demands. Unless you mean the demands of the marketplace. In any case, I don’t mind seeing signs in other languages in the least.

    I haven’t encountered, to take the two groups in my immediate home vicinity, any demand that I do things the Salvadoran or Mongolian way. I see accommodation coming from both sides, but then I am in Arlington and the situation is different. However I would object if Americans entered in great numbers to another country and demanded what you suggest. Actually it has happened in history, though less with us than with the classical imperialist powers.

    I guess you must have experienced daily demands that you speak another language and alter everything about your way of life–work, food, leisure activity, religion, fashion, sports, etc. etc. to the ways of another group, or you would not be asking the question. Or, at least you feel that you have. If you are now going to refer to a political rally now and then as representing constant demands that everything in the United States change, I think those have hardly the pervasive effect you would imply. If demos did have that kind of effect, wow, many things would be different.

  77. park'd said on 27 Jul 2007 at 5:26 pm:
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    TH and Bornhere: I have noticed that there is a glaring omission of a key adjective in many of the paragraphs of your responses.

    *ILLEGAL*

    I know it’s a distasteful word to you, but please don’t answer your posts and leave out key the descriptors. That would be unsportsmanlike.

    Bornhere: From now on, please refer to “immigrants” as “illegal aliens” in all of your posts just as I agreed to use “the majority of American People” instead of “The American People” in mine. Fair is fair.

  78. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 5:44 pm:
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    Park’d you appear not to be paying attention. I was responding to Patriot’s questions and he did not use the term illegal or refer to illegal entry. Please read his questions. I even noted in my response that he didn’t use the term. I also think he was asking about a wider cultural impact of the largest non-English speaking minority in the United States, Spanish speakers, whether they are legal or illegal. I answered the question on his terms. Sorry I didn’t answer them on yours or that you didn’t actually notice that he didn’t use the word.

    Your analogy to what I asked of you is invalid. My use of illegal immigrant is not incorrect as your use of The American People Do/Think X Y or Z.

    Illegal immigrant is used by people on your own side of this issue even on this blog. I haven’t used what you all regard as a horrific euphemism, “undocumented,” but neither do I choose to use the term “alien” because it is primarily a legalistic term whose adoption by many in your movement is a political statement I don’t wish to make. I also don’t use the shorthand “illegals” but that is because I actually love the English language and that butchers it. Illegal is an adjective not a noun. In addition, I think its use as a noun is vulgar and debasing.

  79. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 5:54 pm:
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    PS to Park’d, what is particularly laughable and kind of revealing about your dig above is that if you just scroll back up past Patriot’s questions to me (in which he didn’t use the word illegal) you will find a post to you that begins with my claim that I am not arguing semantics and that has the term “illegal” throughout as do most of my posts. But then you were so eager, so champing at the bit, that you chose not to notice that.

  80. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 6:12 pm:
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    Meanings of “alien.”

    1. a resident born in or belonging to another country who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization (distinguished from citizen).
    2. a foreigner.
    3. a person who has been estranged or excluded.
    4. a creature from outer space; extraterrestrial.

    Ignoring the Wookie and the neurotic or ostracized definitions, I would note that “alien” is in the dictionary neutral as a legal term and thus is open to having legal or illegal placed in front of it. But, glory be!, I haven’t seen you all use “legal alien” only “illegal alien.” Now why is that? I consistently use legal immigrant and illegal immigrant if I am going to use any adjective in front of immigrant, because as any copy editor would tell you, parallelism is desirable and it does not skirt the issue. However if you all want to start using legal alien every blessed time you refer to a legal immigrant who hasn’t yet gotten citizenship, we can talk. I will still imagine the Wookie however.

  81. AWCheney said on 27 Jul 2007 at 6:20 pm:
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    “The income qualifications are not as strict for WIC as they are for food stamps, and one cannot receive both.”

    You learn something new everyday…especially since I have stood in line with an Hispanic lady and saw her using BOTH to pay for her groceries. She then gathered her brood and piled them into a brand spanking new minivan. There’s just something not right with that picture.

  82. freedom said on 27 Jul 2007 at 6:27 pm:
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    but Born Here…consider the fact that a person who has come into this country without even so much as an application, or intent for citizenship, that person is beyond question an alien, right?? By your own definition, is an alien. Hence, having not even applied, repeat, applied, or shown intent to gain citizenship, that person is therefore that alien is illegal, no??

    Come on, those aliens who enter this country’s borders without legal authority are aliens and therefore, are iillegally here. Hence, “illegal alien.” Whew, semantics 101!! Think wookie if you wish, but get real!

  83. freedom said on 27 Jul 2007 at 6:47 pm:
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    Ya know, what we’re dealing with here is a group of people who want NO borders for this country…and the reason is that things are so bad back home that they want to be here, to stay here. However, being here, they justify their presence by claiming that there are no borders…and that the rights and social services that they could not get “at home,” they want to be provided by the American people.

    What the aliens who enter this country fail to accept is that we Americans do not want OUR country to be like the one they hated so much that they left…and that if we as Americans do not control those who enter, this country, our country, will in short order, be no better than that which they fled…

    Advice: Go home, apply through the legal process, when allowed, come here legally and the American people will help you with boundless ends.

  84. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:02 pm:
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    Freedom, (lovely name by the way), the definition wasn’t mine. It was the dictionary’s. It doesn’t refer to intent to obtain citizenship, application processes, etc.

    An alien is simply opposed to a citizen in the definition I pasted in terms of a resident here. So lots of people here with green cards who are legal residents, but who don’t want to apply for citizenship or haven’t gotten around to it and may never have entertained the “intent” are still aliens. I know some who have been here 20 years that way and love America. Technically, they are “legal aliens.” Their reasons for not trying to become citizens may be varied and certainly shouldn’t imply some sort of nefarious behavior. Just to imagine one example, a “legal alien” may be a woman with a green card married to an American who has reasons to want to keep her original citizenship, such as property concerns or family issues, and doesn’t have the option (from her own country) of having two citizenships.

    I would also argue that many illegal immigrants would like to become citizens, but obviously by their means of entrance and the current law, what they would like and what will happen are two different things. I would like to see that change and at least the path first to legal status be opened for all those who are not criminals etc., and then a path to citizenship if they want it. I think it would help solve many of the complaints leveled against them.

    And I wasn’t saying that you all shouldn’t use the term “illegal alien” if you so wish. It isn’t incorrect in the least and it is the favored expression on your side of the issue, well that is when your side of the issue isn’t using the coined noun of “illegals” or uglier terms. I was just noting that the anti “illegal alien” movement does not use “legal alien” although that is equally correct. The entire context for the thing was Park’d’s accusation (false) that I avoid the word illegal. I don’t. I avoid the word alien because I think legal immigrant vs. illegal immigrant does the trick, is parallel and more neutral, and I can readily add any nuances that are needed since I have a reasonable command of English.

    I wouldn’t want to use “illegal alien” unless I were to use “legal alien” and both are too Wookieish for me, plus the first is your turf, using illegal alien, just like using “undocumented” is not neutral in terms of political reality today. It’s like the whole baby/fetus thing in the abortion wars. Oh god, I just used that for illustration, not to open it up :)

  85. park'd said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:02 pm:
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    I see no posts from The Patriot where he expressly asks questions to you about immigrants without using the adjective illegal. I see a few posts where he uses the terms “new wave of hispanics/latinos”. It is implied that he refers to this new wave as illegal aliens anyway since he has stated his views hundreds of times in these very forums, but then again you already knew that. You are just trying to cleverly deny the fact that you neglected to use the word “illegal” in some of your responses. None of us here could harbor any resentment towards Hispanic immigrants. I think they are some of the bravest people that I know. Any beef you get from us about Hispanics will be those of the illegal variety. Your cunning little spin on this will not work.

    There is no such thing as a legal immigrant. The word “immigrant” implies that the person who immigrated did it legally. It is a redundant descriptor so therefor is not necessary. There is also no such thing as an an illegal immigrant for this very same reason. Undocumented workers, undocumented immigrants, misplaced southern americans, or any other term used to define them is an assault on the English language that you “love so much”. The correct term is an “illegal alien”. Please start using this term when referring to them. My “chomping at the bit” as you say, was for you to be consistent with your responses so as not to confuse anyone on what the real issue is here: *Illegal* aliens.

    The word “alien” is used when someone resides under a government or in a country other than that of one’s birth without having or obtaining the status of citizenship there. These people are the ones that come here to work, travel or go to school for an extended period of time and they do it LEGALLY, but then again that is implied.

    illegal alien
    –noun
    1. a foreigner who has entered or resides in a country unlawfully or without the country’s authorization.
    2. a foreigner who enters the U.S. without an entry or immigrant visa, esp. a person who crosses the border by avoiding inspection or who overstays the period of time allowed as a visitor, tourist, or businessperson.

    An illegal alien on the other hand is a valid descriptor because they do enter or reside in our country and they do not have our permission to do it.

  86. park'd said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:11 pm:
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    Freedom: Please use the term “illegal alien” when referring to them. They are not aliens. Aliens are people that have a valid extended visa for work, travel, or educational purposes. Illegal aliens are people that sneak across the border uninvited and these are the people that we are against. If you start using the word “alien” in your posts then it will make you look like a xenophobe.

  87. manassascityresident said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:14 pm:
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    Freedom -
    No matter what you say or how you explain it, I don’t think BornHere will ever get it. I don’t think he really wants to and continues to talk in circles. I admire you’re patience - but people like him don’t want to “get it” because that would mean they would have to admit being wrong and the argument would be over. Same with TH - holy cow - reading that conversation was like watching the movie ground hog day!

  88. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:26 pm:
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    par’d,
    Every time I refer to illegal aliens I say Illegal aliens. The name is nothing for the debate you can call them undocumented or devil’s angels. The problem is the same. They are in your neighborhoods

  89. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:28 pm:
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    manassas city resident,
    OK they are terrible, the are criminals, they will rape your daughters and bring the enpire to the end.
    No it is not a circle because i am agreeing with you.

  90. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:30 pm:
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    Park’d, Legal alien is also an accurate descriptor, yet you do not use it. Also, while you have no use for the term “legal immigrant,” others on your side of the issue do use it. Sorry that distresses you. They use both legal immigrant and illegal immigrant so they must disagree with your reasoning that “immigrant” alone means legal. I don’t know why you bring up “undocumented” above as though I have used it, I haven’t except to say it is a euphemism.

    I am 100% consistent with my legal/illegal immigrant. You are not.

    I actually did use the term “illegal” in my response to Patriot when I pointed out that he didn’t specify or use that word in the questions he specifically asked of me. I thought from some of the things he said that his question went beyond illegal actually to the wider impact of having a very large Spanish-speaking population in this country. That is the only post where I haven’t prefaced most “immigrants” with legal or illegal and that was the reason. If I had any hesitation whatsoever about using the term ILLEGAL, which is what you accused me of, then I wouldn’t have typed it dozens of times before that accusation. In case you have forgotten your specific and false accusation, here it is:

    TH and Bornhere: I have noticed that there is a glaring omission of a key adjective in many of the paragraphs of your responses.

    *ILLEGAL*

    Oh, and I am really surprised you haven’t seen any questions specifically addressed to me…..trouble again with that scroll bar?

    Here you go with time and date:

    # The Patriot said on 27 Jul 2007 at 4:11 pm:

    Bornhere:
    1. Would you say that the majority of the new wave of hispanics/latinos want to join the American “melting pot” or remain as a separate group based on ethnicity?

    2. If we Americans decided to go to Mexico (or any other country for that matter) and demanded that they start speaking English and doing things “the American Way”…do you think those countries would “change their culture” for us? Please be honest and just answer the questions with concise answers.

    Is that post addressed to me specifically enough? Or do you not think placing my name about questions numbered 1 and 2 is not sufficient to imply asking *me* something in particular.

    And here is where in my reply I refer to the fact that he did not use the term illegal.

    “To get back to your question, I think that a majority of the Latinos newly here (I notice you did not specify legal or illegal status) will inevitably join the melting pot as much as……”

    In this country we have a huge number of legal Latino immigrants who, based on my reading and listening, are still often felt to be a cultural threat by some people when they represent large populations in a given community. Plus they usually are blended with people of illegal status in those same communities. Since I have seen lots of people make objections to too much Spanish-language and Latin American cultural influence here in general, I answered the question in general terms because Patriot didn’t specify he was asking about illegal immigrants. He didn’t even specify in his question about Americans going to a country whether they would be all be entering illegally or not. But please, feel free to insert legal or illegal in front of any “immigrants” in my post if it makes you feel better. I have answered the questions addressed to me, which is better than you have done.

  91. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:33 pm:
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    “piled them into a brand spanking new minivan”. I thought it was an SUV. At least that is the way you told the story the last time. I will start making up stories from now and I will repeat it with variants. I willl bring the the same stats. You see, people demand answers from me but when they are asked real facts I don’t get answers just Lou the clown Dobbs quotes.
    See your language and the way you repeat things: Illegal is illegal, What don’t you understand about illegal? Middle Class America, Save Compean and Ramos. The only thing you don’t have that Lou has is a Mexican wife

  92. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:36 pm:
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    ManassasCityResident, I am not talking in circles, nor am I a “he.” Don’t know what you are however, care to enlighten so I can get the pronouns right?

    If you read my post in answer to Patriot’s explicit questions to me, I have stated my views on what he (a person on your side of the issue) asked me about melting pots, assimilation, people forcing others to adopt their language and culture, etc.

    You may not agree with my answers, in fact I would be really shocked if you did, but I spelled out in detail what I think concretely about the questions he asked and will do so again about any specific question on this issue that I am asked.

  93. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:36 pm:
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    “Go home, apply through the legal process, when allowed, come here legally and the American people will help you with boundless ends”
    OK they returned legally and they do the same things they do know. See if you remove the tag illegal and make legal it is the same thing. You won’t like them because they are not adapting to this country’s ways of doing things.
    You are not racists you are jsut people who see your neighborhoods going the wrong way. Say it that way and stop saying that it is just illegal vs. legal

  94. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:37 pm:
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    “All those childrens parents need to become citizens”. Is it a choice? No they are here illegally.

  95. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:38 pm:
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    Bornhere,
    We are the only ones who don’t get it. We talk in circles because we don’t make up stories. Mom did this and granpa that.

  96. TH said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:42 pm:
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    park’d
    “Any beef you get from us about Hispanics will be those of the illegal variety. Your cunning little spin on this will not work.” So if I am here illegally but you see me blond and white, how do you know that I am here illegally.
    There are a lot of Argentinians out there who are as European as a Viking. How do you find out?
    Brown skin? Or whenever you make friends you ask for ID?

  97. freedom said on 27 Jul 2007 at 7:58 pm:
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    Smiling at TH…if you only knew…:(

  98. freedom said on 27 Jul 2007 at 8:05 pm:
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    for park’d….

    as I said before: “…those aliens who enter this country’s borders without legal authority are aliens and therefore, are iillegally here. Hence, “illegal alien.” Whew, semantics 101!!”

    Better?

  99. manassascityresident said on 27 Jul 2007 at 8:08 pm:
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    TH and BornHere -
    I would like to extend an invitation to you both to join Help Save Manassas.

  100. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 8:28 pm:
    Flag comment

    ManassasCityResident,

    Thank you kindly for the invite, but I think we might be trying to save something different. I also live in what some of you might call the People’s Republic of Arlington, so I probably would be ruled out by default.

    Btw, is there website for HSM so that I could read its goals, principles, etc?

  101. 2CENTS said on 27 Jul 2007 at 8:30 pm:
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    BornHere,

    WWW.HELPSAVEMANASSAS.ORG

    and we welcome anyone the greater Manassas area

  102. 2CENTS said on 27 Jul 2007 at 8:36 pm:
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    TH,
    I left you some comments under the thread “SETBACK IN HAZELTON”
    BornHere,
    I would have to correct my statement above to read: see on the application form, the qualifications of who can become a member

  103. park'd said on 27 Jul 2007 at 8:49 pm:
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    Freedom: Not really. You really need to use the adjective in front of the noun in order to prevent yourself from looking like a racist xenophobe. “Illegal alien” really is the correct use of the term. People like Bornhere will take your words and use them against you if you are not careful about how you position them. This is how the liberal media goes about making people that don’t agree with them look like racist hillbillies who hate everything that is brown.

    TH: As has been said in numerous posts of mine in the past, it is all about the numbers. If 20 million Poles, Czechs, Russians or Germans (my own birth country) waltzed into my country within a span of 5 years and started converting my neighborhood signs, trashing up my streets, living 10 to a house, and demanding free services, you bet I would be up in arms about it. Skin color is irrelevant. In fact I happen to love Spanish and Asian women and prefer to date them over my own race. I am very attracted to dark features and always have been, even though I am blue eyed and sandy haired (and ruggedly handsome too I might add). ;)

    Bornhere: Short of refusing to divulge to you a simple plan on how to get rid of illegal aliens, I fail to see where I have not answered any of your questions in the numerous threads where we have squared off. You failed to answer a few of mine in one of our other threads, but I will ask you one of them again now since you seem to be the expert on all things moral and just. What would you do to solve this problem and do you really advocate that we grant amnesty to 20+ million lawbreakers which would effectively spit in the face of countless of millions of immigrants who did things the legal way (my mother included)?

    Once again, “legal alien” is also not an accurate term. It is a redundant descriptor. If there were no illegal aliens then there would never be the need to use the term “legal alien”. I also only harped on you about neglecting to include the adjective “illegal” because I felt that you could confuse others. Your horrific misuse of the word “alien” when it applies to illegal aliens has already managed to confuse at least one person in here already, which is what I am trying to avoid. When I try to run a Webster’s search on the term “legal alien”, I get the following: “There are no dictionary entries for legal alien, but legal, alien are spelled correctly”.

    Your defense of your position is ludicrous. For someone who claims to love the English language as much as you do, you sure have a somewhat limited grasp of it; either that or you are just too proud to admit that you are being stubborn. Just admit that you are wrong on these silly semantics issues and move on to what you are proposing as viable solutions.

  104. manassascityresident said on 27 Jul 2007 at 8:53 pm:
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    BornHere -
    May I ask what you are trying to save in Arlington?

  105. ddpdrinker said on 27 Jul 2007 at 8:58 pm:
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    I conducted a refinance transaction today for a Latino couple who own a home. The husband had a green card issued in 1990 - that is 17 years ago!!!! He did not speak English. His wife had a VA driver’s license re-issued several years ago, so I have no idea how long she has been here. She did not speak English. Their daughter had to interpret. Seventeen years !!!!! Does that sound like he wants to be an American? I see this all the time. Latinos do not want to assimilate into our society. Period. They want a separate nation/county/city of their own. They leave their home to come to a “better place” and then tear down the place to resemble the home they left. Then those here illegally have the audacity to challenge our country’s laws??? More than 2 years ago I predicted this foreclosure fiasco we are experiencing because of all the fraud I saw with the real estate dealings. I am afraid it will come down to a “revolution” and there may possibly be bloodshed before this is over.

  106. Greg L said on 27 Jul 2007 at 8:58 pm:
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    Anyone interested in establishing a group like Help Save Manassas in their own area should feel free to email me, or they can visit http://www.helpsavevirginia.com and contact the state-level organization. Any of us would be happy to lend assistance in getting new chapters set up.

  107. Greg L said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:03 pm:
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    ddpdrinker — It’s my hope that by channeling the concern, frustration, and sometime outrage on this issue into legislative initiatives, we can avoid any possibility of anything other than political conflict on this issue. No one wants bloodshed. It would be horrible and tragic, resulting in costs none of us would ever want to bear.

    If we can engage people in the political process, that may well inoculate our society from the kind of bloodshed that happens when folks feel there is no other alternative. There is another alternative — political activism, and that is the alternative we must always focus on and ensure will always exist.

  108. park'd said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:10 pm:
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    Edit:

    When I used the word “waltzed” above it was meant to convey sneaking across the border and entering into the country illegally. Let’s get that on the record straight away…

    Immigration laws were put into place so that cultural clashes like this would not happen as quickly as they have. In today’s day and age where we no longer need the bolstering of huge numbers of immigrants, set numbers of people are allowed to slowly integrate into the country so that they can assimilate into American society and learn the ways of the land. It’s only natural when 20 million people circumvent these rules and help themselves to the American Dream, that there are going to be a lot of ruffled feathers. The majority of The American People are not happy.

  109. researching said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:11 pm:
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    ddpdrinker,
    I have to agree with you and people like Th and bornhere are stirring the pot.
    I have to think that help save manassas is a group of postive people that are trying to rally the enforcement of already existing laws. I am just learning about them and they seem to have a very positive view in my eyes. I am doing my research, just like bornhere and th should be spending their time .People like them seem to be a wasting thier time,trying to trap someone into using the wrong “word” . I see them using the “wrong” words.
    It doesn’t smell good.

  110. manassascityresident said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:19 pm:
    Flag comment

    That’s what I meant when I said they were talking in circles, continuously repeating themselves….trying to waste our time. We need to be productive and they take away from that happening.
    I have not heard back from TH regarding the invite to HSM -

  111. manassascityresident said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:25 pm:
    Flag comment

    Are churches allowed to let “any” organization use their facility, such as the rally at All Saints last night. I truly don’t know the “rules” on that.
    Being a parishioner there, I can say that I am very disappointed.

  112. AWCheney said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:36 pm:
    Flag comment

    “piled them into a brand spanking new minivan”. I thought it was an SUV. At least that is the way you told the story the last time.”

    Actually TH, it wasn’t the same story. The gal with the SUV only used food stamps, not both. We live in an area where you almost always stand in the grocery line with one or more Hispanics, assuming you do your own shopping that is.

  113. ddpdrinker said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:43 pm:
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    Greg: In the middle of my reply to you, I lost my internet connection. I agree with what you say, I would hate to see bloodshed over this. I was born and raised in Baltimore, during the Civil Rights era, and was there back in 1968 during the riots and watched the row houses around the corner from us being burned. I felt it brewing. Given the nature of a large amount of the hot-headed, illegal, disrespectful, arrogant Latinos, and the threat of “revolution”, I can also feel this brewing and I pray I am wrong. Immigration laws are put into effect for a reason and they are not being enforced. We are taking steps to try to get them enforced. However, those here illegally may do “whatever it takes” to stop the political process. I was so worried about Mr. Stirrup’s safety last night. The Latino countries have a history of overthrowing and revolution and civil-uprisings and I am concerned that they are going to bring that here to Manassas and Prince William County.

  114. park'd said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:44 pm:
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    Manassascityresident: I would discuss that with your Pastor. I know what I would do if it were my church…

  115. AWCheney said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:46 pm:
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    “The only thing you don’t have that Lou has is a Mexican wife.”

    I should hope not TH…I don’t even have a Mexican husband. It’s also nice to know that we should now question everything you say (”I will start making up stories from now and I will repeat it with variants.”). Nice of you to give us fair warning.

  116. ddpdrinker said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:49 pm:
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    I thought there was supposed to be separation of Church and State? Isn’t the illegal immigrant a “State” problem? Churches should not get involved.

  117. park'd said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:52 pm:
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    ddpdrinker: “The Latino countries have a history of overthrowing and revolution and civil-uprisings”

    They do? You could have fooled me! Why haven’t they managed to gather the courage to overthrow their own !@@## countries and create their own USA then?

    I too see it brewing. You give them amnesty and you will have riots by American citizens. You will also see a huge increase in hate crime violence. You try to round them up and deport them and like any cornered animal they will strike back. We are all animals so no racist innuendos pls, mkay, thx.

    This is why the politicians are so hamstringed to do anything. They fear any choice they make so they stick their heads in the sand and hope the status quo will maintain itself. Well, the status quo is crumbling and things are coming to a head. It’s time for some real leaders to make some decisions and enforce our laws.

  118. manassascityresident said on 27 Jul 2007 at 9:59 pm:
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    ddpdrinker -
    That’s what I thought, and that’s why I’m a little confused about it…
    Comments?

  119. ddpdrinker said on 27 Jul 2007 at 10:03 pm:
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    Well, park’d, they probably did try, did not succeed, and came up here to try to get their own way, one way or another. They certainly are sucking up our resources and turning sections into a third world country and when we try to do something to curtail it …. well, they threaten “revolution”. I agree with the point it is time to get some real leadership in here to enforce our laws.

  120. BornHere said on 27 Jul 2007 at 10:43 pm:
    Flag comment

    ManassasCityResident, I am not trying to save anything in Arlington. My experience here is of co-existence among native-born Americans and foreign-born residents, legally here and illegally here, at least in the one corner of the county that I have lived in since the early 1980s. If there is a movement such as yours here, I don’t know about it. Democrats win elections here, locally and nationally. We have an openly gay county board member, a county board vice chairman from El Salvador, etc. etc. It isn’t nearly as liberal as Takoma Park, but in terms of Northern Virginia, I guess it comes close, and our board definitely wouldn’t fly in Manassas in a million years. The problem wouldn’t even have to be Tejada, it would be Fisette. Hell, it would be Favola. A quote from Tejada in the Examiner that I am sure will gladden your heart:

    “Arlington will continue to be a welcoming and inclusive county,” Tejada said. “What Loudoun and Prince William counties are doing is government-sanctioned xenophobia at its very ugliest.”

    If I had to save anything about Arlington, I would slow down all the constant high rise development along the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor that is displacing or will displace almost all of the older quirky buildings. All the high rises along that corridor are also threatening the remaining garden apartment complexes with reasonable rents that helped to make this corridor area as diverse in housing and class as it was in ethnicity. There is a Partnership for Affordable Housing in Arlington, but I wish they were more aggressive. Our generally liberal county board is also too willing to sacrifice affordable housing in this part of the North Arlington. But I fear it is a losing battle. The transformations over the past 25 years have been extremely dramatic. My ideal kind of neighborhood has no HOA’s, no gated communities, a real mix of housing of all kinds, people of all kinds, and mutual tolerance. Where I live in the corridor is still somewhat like that, but it is slipping away fast.

    Thanks for asking.

  121. Legal2 said on 28 Jul 2007 at 8:22 am:
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    mcresident: All Saints has been involved in this stuff before. They are a hotbed of social justice for “some” people. The “pastor” apparently thinks justice is only for the “downtrodden” (illegals) and not for the law-abiding parishioners. I plan to pursue this and hope others do, too, with calls to him, the chancery, local radio programs, ICE and IRS.

    And TH/BH - don’t go away mad, just go away. Our focus will not be distracted by the waste of your and our time here.

  122. manassascityresident said on 28 Jul 2007 at 8:27 am:
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    Legal2 -
    Myself and a friend plan to do the same. I think I’ll call and try to schedule a HSM meeting there….wonder what the response would be…?

  123. Legal2 said on 28 Jul 2007 at 8:34 am:
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    Make sure you tell the office, you “just want to hold a meeting, in the interest of his parishioners.” Don’t try to defend what you’re doing. Fr. C doesn’t when he explains why subversives are using the facilities, and pretends he doesn’t know who’s behind these groups. Why not just schedule a meeting there. HSM needs a larger venue for meetings anyway - All Saints gym would accommodate us for a while.

  124. ddpdrinker said on 28 Jul 2007 at 9:29 am:
    Flag comment

    Great idea !!!!!

  125. dolphin_Moon said on 28 Jul 2007 at 9:43 am:
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    TH/BH, apparently there is no room at the Inn for input from moderates. From what I can gather, if you aren’t a Republican who wants to rid the town of all illegals, then your opinion is simply not welcome.

    No one has yet answered my question: How do we determine who is legal and who is not? (I mean the average person, not a government agency)

    I think that the recent influx of immigrants to this area has caused many problems. Sheer volume over a relatively short period of time is impacting our communities and our services, and our infastructure.

    I also believe there are solutions to these problems and I had hoped to explore them with like-minded residents of this community. What I have found is this Quixotic determination to rid Manassas, MP, and Prince William County of all illegal aliens.

    You had also better call them that also. Heaven forbid you use other language to convey your thoughts. ‘Undocumented worker’ brands you as a liberal and ‘immigrant’ sure doesn’t mean what I have thought it meant for the past (x-value) number of years.

    The federal government determines one’s legality when and if they enter this country. No local jurisdiction really has any control over who enters and under what conditions. We vote in federal elections. That is about as good as it gets. And yes, I feel the federal government has abrogated its responsibility. A general house-cleaning is needed in all three branches of the federal government, in my opinion. (and not just over this issue)

    We have to approach some of the problems found here in this area from an angle that goes beyond legal vs illegal, otherwise we will just tilt at windmills. We need to codify some of our community standards so that people moving in to this area become welcome additions rather than annoyances. It is up to those of us who live here to set the standards rather than create hostility and distrust.

    Yes, TH, much of the problem is a cultural collision of sorts. It isn’t all about legal vs illegal. We have no clue who is legal, so if you take that fact to its logical conclusion……nah…I wont say it.

    Since coming to this blog, I have see people who don’t quote the party line told to go away, ridiculed, had their intelligence questioned, their gender insulted and called names. This sounds a lot like playground bullying to me. In fact, I have softened my stance on the entire immigration issue because of it.

    Dolph

    …….”Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform”……..Mark Twain

  126. BornHere said on 28 Jul 2007 at 9:57 am:
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    Dolphin_Moon, thank you for a heartfelt and interesting post. I agree with much of it. I also appreciate your protest against the attempt by many here to push the party line and to govern the term one uses for the, well now I’m flummoxed, the um, population in question.

    I would imagine I am to the left of you on the issue, but your notion of trying to communicate and codify community standards in a way that doesn’t create hostility definitely resonates. I think the hardliners here and the people so ready to question one’s patriotism, right to speak, and right to even continue as an American should read your last paragraph, especially its last line, over and over. I hope there are more like you in your community.

  127. Anonymous said on 28 Jul 2007 at 10:04 am:
    Flag comment

    join the club. we feel the same way when it comes to you pro illegal types. either feel the way you do or be branded a racist hillbilly. both sides are just as guilty here.

  128. Legal2 said on 28 Jul 2007 at 10:09 am:
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    D_M: “I also believe there are solutions to these problems and I had hoped to explore them with like-minded residents of this community. What I have found is this Quixotic determination to rid Manassas, MP, and Prince William County of all illegal aliens.”

    You can always start your own blog. I think this one is looking for real ideas and not rehashed ones.

  129. Sals said on 28 Jul 2007 at 10:26 am:
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    From my reading of the resolution, besides directing the police to get ICE training, it basically states that it will enforce laws that have already been made. As for the undecided aspect of which services an illegal alien is not entitled to, I’m hoping it will be determined from a more liberal point of view to make it easier for PWC to win the inevitable lawsuit.
    I fail to see how any person with a healthy sense of self can interpret the resolution as creating hostility if the only law they have ever broken is illegal entry into the USA. If they’re not breaking laws or asking for handouts they shouldn’t be so indignant. I do understand the fear it generates, but should illegal aliens (as opposed to the rest of humanity) not be subject to suffering the consequences of the their own decisions? If it creates hostility it is because of the inaccurate portrayal it gets in the Spanish and mainstream media.

  130. Steve Thomas said on 28 Jul 2007 at 11:14 am:
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    Sals,

    You read the resolution from the rational point of view, which is why it makes so much sense. 287g is a Federal program in local jurisdictions all over the country, so any lawsuit filed against PWC on this would be immediately dismissed. The directive giving the officers discretionary ability to inquire as to the legal status of an individual is not prohibited by any State or Federal law, nor is their any constitutional prohibition against it. A Police officer can ask you anything he wants to, with or without probable cause. Asking someone their legal status is no more unconstitutional than it is to ask someone pulled over for a traffic violation on a Friday night, “have you had anything to drink this evening?”. The sections regarding services deal only with those services already excluded by State and Federal law to illegal aliens, and those PWC County services that the County can lawfully exclude aliens from receiving.

    It is the pro-illegal advocacy groups who are spreading misinformation to motivate their base. They feel the threat to their power. If PWC becomes a less attractive place for illegal aliens, fewer will come, and more will leave. When the resolution and policy passes muster, many more localities will follow suit, further erroding the power-base of the pro-illegal groups. Make no mistake. This fight is about the exercise of political power, the legitimate versus the illegitimate. This is an exercise in democracy, and the legitimate will of the people, those people being the citizens and legal residents of their respective jurisdictions, against invaders and criminals, and the interlopers and Quislings who represent them.

  131. BornHere said on 28 Jul 2007 at 11:22 am:
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    Sals, Interesting post. So you are essentially saying that if illegal immigrants lay low in Manassas, don’t offend community standards in housing etc., and don’t ask for “handouts” (it would be nice to see a full explanation of what you mean by that, education? medical care? library books?), that they have nothing to worry about? Well the SC has already ruled that education, for example, cannot be withheld, but I gather many people in Manassas differ on that point.

    So you do not object to their presence purely on the basis of their illegality?

    Also, how would you propose determining the status of every person who comes looking for services? Would you demand that authorities require proof of citizenship and/or legal status of every single potential client? Or would you just demand it of people who somehow fit some profile that might suggest a potential illegal status, like language, appearance, etc.?

    Do you have a way to prevent the harassment of people based on a presumption of illegal status? It seems to me that the only way to make this fair would be to require the equal scrutiny and documentation of every single person interacting with authorities in any way. Would that mean some kind of new ID to be carried 24/7 and granted once a person shows a birth certificate or green card?

  132. Mary said on 28 Jul 2007 at 11:29 am:
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    You can always start your own blog. I think this one is looking for real ideas and not rehashed ones.

    Indeed. Why do pro-illegals come on pro-sovereignty sites and whine that no one wants to agree with them? It’s not like pro-illegal blogs are bastions of free speech and reasonable discourse. Most pro-illegal sites I’ve had experience with are run under heavy censorship policies.

  133. Batson D. Belfrey (Blog-Fu Blackbelt Earned Here) said on 28 Jul 2007 at 12:32 pm:
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    To Dolphin_Moon and BornHere,

    Welcome to the blogosphere. Blogs make no claims to being “non-partisan”, nor does this one. Blogs, by their very nature, are partisan. You are free to comment on any blog that will allow you to, but be prepared to be attacked by those who disagree with you. This is the nature of the medium, and what makes it so great. Anyone can start a blog, anyone can comment, attack, and defend. Greg’s blog is so very popular because he doesn’t sugar-coat anything, nor do his commentors. You are free to agree or disagree, but when entering the Dojo, be ready. Where Greg to ban you outright, delete your comments, etc., you might have an argument about this blog stifiling discourse. Beyond profanity, this blog offers no protection. You say it, you better be prepared to defend it.

    This is what Blog-Fu is all about.

  134. dolphin_Moon said on 28 Jul 2007 at 1:08 pm:
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    Anonymous (10:04), I don’t believe I have ever called anyone a hillbilly racist. I am also not a pro-illegal anything. I think it is extremely important for our government to know who is in this country and to regulate who comes in both permanently and temporarily. They have failed to do so and from all appearances, will continue to fail to do so, at least under this administration. I am also horrified that agents from our border security get sent to prison for a decade for shooting a drug smuggler in the ass. If that makes me a pro-illegal, then guilty as charged.

    I tend not to be an absolutist over much of anything. I have always felt it a good thing to be able to at least see an issue through another’s eyes, even if I vehemently disagree. I also believe in listening to the opinions of others.

    Legal2, you could always start your own private blog or lock out those who don’t quote the party line here. Blog can be privatized and passworded. Then everyone could preach to the choir and not be bothered with anyone who didn’t agree with you. If a blog is public, you are pretty much stuck with listening to comments from the public.

    Dolph

  135. BornHere said on 28 Jul 2007 at 1:30 pm:
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    Batson, I don’t have any problem being attacked, disagreed with, dismissed, etc. on the issues. Oh, and this is a partisan blog? Stop the presses. I didn’t know!

    The only thing I expressed a problem with is being told things like I am not an American and have no business living here unless I agree with every word of a statement by Theodore Roosevelt in which TR says, explicitly, the country has room for one language and one flag, period. That lovely sentiment of exclusion (brought to you commercial free from Bob Sentz) was only the most elaborate example of variations on a theme in which folks in your movement choose to impugn one’s right to citizenship and residence in this country unless one toes a party line.

    I am troubled by such statements that imply I am somehow less American if I think a certain way and I object to that ludicrous kind of über-patriotic rhetoric. Yet, while it is hardly a legitimate or skillful way to argue, I certainly don’t attempt to block anyone intellectually desperate enough (see TR example) to indulge in it. They should feel free. That’s exactly what our American traditions are about.

  136. Sals said on 28 Jul 2007 at 2:43 pm:
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    BornHere,
    I just gave my humble interpretation of the resolution. The handouts I refer to are food stamps, wic checks, medicaid and whatever else there may be that illegal aliens are not entitled to. Everyone who is going to apply for a service limited by citizenship or legal status should be required to show proof. If I’m going to apply for any of those I would not be offended to show my eligibility in the form of my birth certificate. If my husband were to apply for any of those I would expect them to ask to see his green card which he has to carry with him at all times. (I would also expect them to come after myself and my brother in law regarding the affidavits of support that we both signed.)

    Regardless of whether or not one believes that illegals or their children should be entitled to education or library access, we do need to do it for the greater good of the country. If not, the level of lawlessness would be exponentially greater. I would even go a step further to encourage any illegal alien to actively get involved with their children’s education. Imagine the progress that all the advocates could make towards the future of these children if they would dedicate even half of their energy and passion towards education and believing in their raza instead of generating a shared sense of victimhood!

    Is asking a person for their status harrassment?

  137. Bridget said on 28 Jul 2007 at 4:58 pm:
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    from ateacher:

    ‘As for education…that’s a moot point unless the supreme court ruling is overturned, and overturning rulings is a time consuming process. And who’s to say whether or not the supreme court would deny education for the US born children.”

    The issue is far from moot.

    Thanks to the supreme court case Plyler V Doe (1982), our schools have evolved into the mother of all illegal alien sanctuaries. Not to mention fortresses for their many advocates. The very idea that public schools are afforded as safe havens for persons violating federal laws is insane.

    Plyler was never just about providing tots access to a kindergarden class. Plyler opened the floodgates for illegal entry into the U.S.A. Schools now serve as a one-stop shopping centers and clearinghouses for every concievable accommodation and service.

    There are numerous support programs, classes, staff positions, and community outreach forums available via our schools that target the “Immigrant, refugee and limited English” populations.

    Here is but a small sample of what gets passed out to the “Community” via your public scools :

    >Flyers announcing DMV sponsored workshops on how to obtain ID or drivers licences BEFORE the January 1st 2004 deadline.

    >Flyers announcing the April 10th 2006 “Protesta en Washington DC” and similar gatherings.

    >Adverts for the DINERO SEGURO money wire service to Mexico from the US Postal Service.

    >Flyers and brochures from Hogar Hispano, Center for Multicultural Human Services, Just Neighbors Immigration Legal Services, MALDEF, LULAC and LA RAZA, Community Outreach Program (DHS), and , yes Arlington County information and referrals to medical, and other community services.

    >Free tax preparation (read Earned Income Credit for those with ITIN)
    Crisis Assistance, food, clothing, furniture, rental relief, free clinics…
    Legal Services (Family reunification petitions, Asylum, Deportation/Removal Defence)
    Job training, translation and notary services…

    And if you are wondering … it all came to me out of my kid’s school backpack.

    As a US citizen born overseas to US parents, I find the whole notion of illegal aliens having “BIRTHRIGHT” citizenship utterly bogus.

    Of my parents five children, four of us were born in foreign nations and none of us were granted the right of citizenship by our birthplace nation. None of us were permitted to attend local schools; my father had to pay for private schooling, and he held, at all times, a legal work visa from the host nation. We all had to carry some form of Resident Alien Registration card at all times, which local police could ask to inspect at any time.

    Plyler v Doe can and must be overturned.

    http:www.vdare.com/sutherland/the_solution.htm

  138. BornHere said on 28 Jul 2007 at 5:12 pm:
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    Sals, thanks for specifying what you meant by handouts. I agree about everyone should be getting more involved in their children’s education as long as showing up at a PTA meeting or teacher’s conference would not threaten their ability to provide for those children. That might be a bit much to ask. In any case, I have found it ironic that I have heard activists in your movement simultaneously say that illegal immigrants care little for the education of their children and those children are somehow deficient, then turn around and say let’s make damn sure there are no in-state tuition rates for all those children of illegal immigrants who finish high school and get accepted at a college or university. If the first proposition is true, then the second goal would be pretty much unneeded. But of course there are lots of children of illegal immigrants, Latino and not Latino, all over the country who are smart, capable, and broke, and who want in-state rates.

    To answer your question. I would agree with you that if I were requesting a government-sponsored service 100% limited to citizens or legal resident aliens (as I think I have seen the sign at the airport say), verifying citizenship or legal residence in a government office would not be harassment—so long as it was asked of ALL people requesting. I would also hope there would be some kind of waiver for the very rare, but still existing case, of an American born here but without a birth certificate because that person was not born in the hospital and was not later registered.

    Now if you go beyond the “handouts” you mention and you have situations like people being stopped “driving while brown,” “walking down the street while brown,” etc. or standing around speaking in an accent that is clearly not American English, then yes, I would say it is harassment to ask someone about their status unless you have probable cause to do so. This would be, under constitutional law, particularly problematic for pedestrians.

  139. manassascityresident said on 28 Jul 2007 at 7:11 pm:
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    BornHere -
    You are beginning to disappoint me - the room is starting to spin as we go round and round….and round….

  140. Mary said on 28 Jul 2007 at 7:48 pm:
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    Thanks to the supreme court case Plyler V Doe (1982), our schools have evolved into the mother of all illegal alien sanctuaries. Not to mention fortresses for their many advocates. The very idea that public schools are afforded as safe havens for persons violating federal laws is insane.

    Not only that, but it also opened the door for taxation without representation — the legal enslavement of native-born Americans and legal immigrants to the illegals and their “needs.” With court-ordered “entitlements” such as Plyler v. Doe, we lost the right to decide how and where our own tax dollars are spent through our representatives.

    Here in Mexifornia, it’s gone beyond “free” education to a whole host of other “free” services, many of which were court-mandated (some of it achieved by outright meddling of the Mexican government in California political affairs — but that’s another story).

    The result: we native-born Mexifornians have taxation without representation — a situation that will only get worse as the illegals and their “legal” enablers agitate for more, more, more “free” services for an ever-increasing number of “immigrants”. The result: native-born Americans are fleeing Mexifornia at the rate of 300,000 per year. The native-born tax base has pretty much disappeared in many parts of SoCal, and we know that the incoming illegals haven’t replaced it. LA County is broke and is begging Washington for federal hand-outs.

    The only people who can afford to bear the tax burden brought about by the illegals — and who can also afford to live away, in their gated communities, from the chaos and other unpleasant things that the illegals have brought — are the super-rich. So SoCal has gone from a place that formerly featured a large native-born, stabilizing middle-class, to one that is becoming more and more stratified between the poverty-stricken masses of foreign imports and the uber-wealthy, remaining native-borns.

    To make matters even more absurd, the open boarders LA Slimes regularly runs hand-wringing editorials about the “growing gap between the rich and the poor” in SoCal. Well of course if you are going to push out the native-born middle class while simultaneously importing masses of poorly educated, low-skilled Third Worlders, you get a stratified society. But LA Slimes and the other liberal media would never voice this obvious cause and effect, that would be the utmost liberal heresy in their viewpoint.

  141. Mary said on 28 Jul 2007 at 7:57 pm:
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    Born Here,

    For an ordinary disinterested citizen you seem to have a lot of pro-illegal alien talking points, “facts” and figures at your fingerpoints.

    Sure you’re not a professional pro-illegal-alien? Working for LULAC, La Raza or possibly the White House?

    During the shamnesty drama, several White House staffers were caught commenting on pro-sovereignty blogs with professionally prepared talking points. The Corner at the National Review outed them, but I’ve forgotten what their names were.

  142. manassascityresident said on 28 Jul 2007 at 8:00 pm:
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    Mary -
    Very well written, and very sad. What a mess we’re in. I say close the borders - NO immigration at all. No one else comes in for 5-10 years or until we clean up this MESS. Call it whatever you want, but we need to say enough is enough! We should have said it when the “war on terror” began. Why the heck we didn’t, I don’t know. We’re at war - yet we’re not securing our own borders. RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  143. Mary said on 28 Jul 2007 at 8:10 pm:
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    manassascityresident,

    I have heard that it was bad in Northern Virginia, and I wouldn’t know off-hand, but believe me, you probably ain’t seen nuthin’ yet, until you’ve seen Mexifornia. Whole towns that have been Anglo for 150 years have become 100 percent Spanish-speaking, often in the space of only five or six years. The transformation has been that rapid. I am a native-born Californian in my late 40s and I have had to witness — and pay for — the increasing colonization of my homeland by Mexico. Comparing the prosperous. uncrowded, environmentally intact California of 35 years ago to the Mexifornia of today is indescribably painful, so I try to avoid thinking about it as much as possible.

    The speaker of our assembly, Fabian Nunez, is a grown up anchor baby who has been photographed pledging allegiance to the Mexican flag and urging the establishment of “Aztlan” in California. The mayor of LA is also an Aztlanista, who blatantly stated when he assumed office that “Mexico will shape my policies.” Our largest cash crop is marijuana, most of it planted on our state and national parks, and 90 percent of it controlled by the Mexican mafia and tended by illegals. It is no longer really safe to go hiking or horseback riding in our national parks because the lifespan of a citizen who happens upon an illicit marijuana plantation is not long. In addition, the environmental damage caused by these illicit dope plantations is enormous. And mind you, I am talking about some of the most spectacular pristine wilderness that exists within the borders of the USA.

    Have to stop now — I am starting to get suicidal here.

  144. manassascityresident said on 28 Jul 2007 at 8:41 pm:
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    Mary -
    What is Arnold doing about it? Is he active? The only thing I’ve ever heard him say is that the Latinos need to turn off the Latino TV stations and learn English. What’s up with him?
    Please don’t go suicidal. We need your comments/reality. I don’t know how anyone in this country can say that they “don’t see a problem”….My God - are they blind? Or, they are living safe and snug in their gated communities.
    STOP THE MADNESS!

  145. Mary said on 28 Jul 2007 at 9:03 pm:
    Flag comment

    Manass –

    Arnold started out being pro-sov (he even praised the Minutemen in the press once upon a time), but has morphed into a pro-illegal under pressure from his Kennedy wife and from the open borders lobby/La Raza crowd. Even his mild remark that the invaders need to learn our language caused the La Raza crowd to foam at the mouth and scream “racism.” He wants to guarantee “free” “universal” healthcare to the illegals and supports the Dream act, etc. Every time I see Arnold on TV with Chappaquidick Teddy’s niece I thank God that the Constitution forbids him from pursuing the presidency. Then I think — maybe the niece will run and Arnold will rule through her.

    It’s bad here, really bad. If you are upper-middle class like me you can still afford to live in a town that somewhat resembles the USA. If you are working class or middle-middle, forget it. You live in Mexico. Most natvie-born people just leave; others are fleeing to the Sierra foothills which is the last un-invaded region in CA (because there’s not much industry or “free” social services up there. I long to join them, but can’t convince the spousal unit to budge. He refuses to face reality.)

    My house is worth a million bucks, and I’ve spotted illegals hiding in my neighbor’s bushes, we’ve had our mail stolen, cars parked on the street getting broken into, and used toilet paper showing up in our landscaping. And that’s in a town where a starter home costs 800 grand-plus. I refuse to live in a gated community but I’m starting to think I will have to at some point, if we stay here, or my 9-year-old daughter is in danger.

  146. BornHere said on 28 Jul 2007 at 9:32 pm:
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    No Mary, I’m just a Northern Virginian news junkie with a basic college education, a life spent typing very fast, and the same access to Google, newspaper archives, reference works, etc. we all have online. I believe you are in California right? Well the last time I checked you had all the same resources no, or do you have a People’s Republic of China type blocking service on your Google?

    Sorry to disappoint you. The part about the White House is particularly hilarious, especially given the predominant partisan identity of the anti-illegal immigrant and/or anti-immigrant movement. (The latter does exist, but I will assume you only oppose illegal immigration.)

    I am not sure what you mean by asking if I am “a pro-illegal alien.” Are you suggesting that I am not an American citizen and thus an alien? One more time, the Midwestern state of my birth hasn’t seceded to join Canada.

    And finally, I would think, if you were logical even to the smallest degree, you would realize that there aren’t a lot of “ordinary disinterested citizens” on the blog, not on your side, not on mine. Most of us here arguing these points are by definition not disinterested, which is to say not “neutral, dispassionate.” Ordinary I admit to, citizen, most definitely, but disinterested? No. I love the Constitution too much to be disinterested.

  147. Mary said on 28 Jul 2007 at 9:46 pm:
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    BornProfessional,

    No Mary, I’m just a Northern Virginian news junkie with a basic college education, a life spent typing very fast, and the same access to Google, newspaper archives, reference works, etc. we all have online.

    Obviously you work for a so-called “pro-immigrant” group. You’re not an amateur.

    Sorry to disappoint you. The part about the White House is particularly hilarious, especially given the predominant partisan identity of the anti-illegal immigrant and/or anti-immigrant movement. (The latter does exist, but I will assume you only oppose illegal immigration.)

    White House: Surely you know that Bush has been pro-open-borders since his election, and his operatives worked round-the-clock to get shamnesty passed. And yes they infiltrated pro-sov blogs and tried to spin the “comprehensive immigration reform” lies. Surely you know that 1/3 of all the illegals in the country came her under Bush’s watch — at his open invitation. He announced support for amnesty in 2004, just no one paid attentio because we were all focused on other things.

    I am not sure what you mean by asking if I am “a pro-illegal alien.”

    Pro-illegal-alien: In favor of illegal aliens, promotes the “rights” of illegals over the rights of native-born Americans and illegal immigrants. Basically your position here from day 1. Or would you prefer anti-sov, pro-Mexican-colonization, or other apt terms?

    And finally, I would think, if you were logical even to the smallest degree, you would realize that there aren’t a lot of “ordinary disinterested citizens” on the blog, not on your side, not on mine.

    I thought you were against gratiutious insults and favored “civil conversation.” I guess you only want the civility to come from one side, then? Ah, typical.

  148. ateacher said on 28 Jul 2007 at 9:51 pm:
    Flag comment

    Wow AW Cheney…you’re awesome. Since the alleged “illegal” hispanic woman was using both WIC vouchers and food stamps, she was obviously not on the express lane. You must have had a mere gallon of milk to purchase in order to both pay and find the free time to stalk the woman into the parking lot and discover her new minivan. How did you get so close to this hispanic woman that you were able to see that she was using food stamps? You do realize that food stamps come in the form of a magnetic striped credit card that is swiped thru the same machine as all other debit/credit cards?And since you can obviously eyeball food vouchers and can(from your posting)determine without a doubt whether or not they come from WIC or SERVE or a church means you must have some seriously bionic eyes. And it’s just so incredible that with your awesome powers of deduction you could state as fact that the minivan belonged to this woman. TH is right, enough with the urban rumors..a new minivan…anew lexus SUV. If the woman was using a food stamp card she is most likely legal. If you think that people don’t need extra help with food even when on food stamps you are living on fantasy island. They do.

  149. Mary said on 28 Jul 2007 at 9:54 pm:
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    In favor of illegal aliens, promotes the “rights” of illegals over the rights of native-born Americans and illegal immigrants.

    Sorry that should be “promotes the rights of illegals over the rights of native-born Americans and LEGAL immigrants.”

  150. Anonymous said on 28 Jul 2007 at 10:08 pm:
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    BornHere,
    As unfortunate as it is for the student, I don’t agree with in-state tuition for illegal aliens until something is done about the cash under the table economy that enables so many to get away without paying the true extent of taxes owed. People like Nancy Lyall should treat the people she advocates for with dignity by being honest with them and letting them know that they need to file tax returns and declare ALL income from all sources. I’m in favor of the IRS increasing enforcement….wasn’t it the IRS who brought down Al Capone?

  151. BornHere said on 28 Jul 2007 at 10:22 pm:
    Flag comment

    Anonymous (as distinct from Anon), I wasn’t coming out for or against in-state tuition, just noting that the movement against illegal immigration takes one position that would seem to negate the need for the second position. Yeah, it was the IRS.

    Athough, I would also note that a very large percentage of illegal aliens are having SS and other payroll taxes withheld that according to an NYT story I read amount to a subsidy of SS in the billions of dollars.

  152. yall retarded! said on 28 Jul 2007 at 10:42 pm:
    Flag comment

    wow um everyone for this whole HELP SAVE MANASSAS program. yall sound like a bunch of racist go join the kkk and get out of here MANASSAS aint worth it! its your average town and who cares about the hispanics or “illegals” who i bet more than half of are leagal. Now we do have some illeagals but we also have a war going on that were like losing, we have AIDS in africa, we have world hunger and poverty, and theres still Comunist trying to beat us out as a world power AND to top it all off we have a STUPID AS HELL president! and you care about MANASSAS!
    you have to be leagal to get food stamps you know.
    not all hispanics are Mexican.
    most people for this program are racist.
    everyone has a right to an education.
    if they came here they came here for a better life.
    I would so understand if there rallying against you in fact i hope this HELP SAVE MANASSAS **** doesnt go to your head. im fine here everyone i know that lives around my neighboorhood dosent care why should you! its the least of our problems come on your all adults here go to work and leave immigrants alone!
    MY JEEZE!
    im thirteen and i think your all stupid for arguing about this crap when we have other things to worry about!

    [Ed note: comment edited. It was a tough call on whether to delete this or not.]

  153. manassascityresident said on 28 Jul 2007 at 10:48 pm:
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    BornHere -
    And that would be the problem - you got your info from the NYT…

  154. BornHere said on 28 Jul 2007 at 10:50 pm:
    Flag comment

    Mary, you’re so cute, you flatter me, honestly if you think I’m professional. Or maybe it is just on the West Coast that gee you don’t have that many people who are really excited about politics and are news junkies who can use Google unless they are professional. Or maybe you just think anyone who can find a statistic has to be a professional because it would be so hard to type a cogent phrase in Google and arrive at anything, or benefit from reading two print papers (WP and NYT of course) a day and lots of other news outlets. Whatever, it’s cute but boring. You will make East Coasters think that those stereotypes of lala land are true. I don’t believe they are. I know a lot of poitically savvy Californians, but you certainly are adding evidence.

    Yes, of course I know about Bush’s policies regarding illegal immigration. That is precisely why I find it hysterical all of you in your movement are forced to align yourself with the Republican Party basically because the Dems are worse for you on this issue, and third parties are a wasted vote in our system. I assume that if you voted in the last two presidential elections you voted for Bush, but perhaps you voted for a third party. It is amusing that the one candidate that has made illegal immigration his most important topic, Tancredo, can’t even budge beyond the margins. So much for the groundswell among you folks and the claims that you represent a seething majority. Altho Tancredo is kind of smarmy. Thompson, if he enters, will probably do much better with that rhetoric because he can deliver it without appearing to be a used car salesman. His acting training will pay off. I love him on L&0. Oh dear, I am speaking as though I follow politics. I must be a professional!!! Jeepers!

    Then you murmured in that sweet New Agey way:

    “Pro-illegal-alien: In favor of illegal aliens, promotes the “rights” of illegals over the rights of native-born Americans and illegal immigrants. Basically your position here from day 1. Or would you prefer anti-sov, pro-Mexican-colonization, or other apt terms?”

    I guess what threw me is your fake noun. No Mare, I don’t promote the rights of illegal immigrants over native-born Americans or legal immigrants, no. And perhaps it is because you are so far away in lala land that you would talk in terms of Mexican colonization. Mexicans are only a small minority of the Latino illegal (or for that matter legal) immigrants in Northern Virginia, the focus of this blog. “Anti-sov” I have seen on this blog and other forums like it, but never before that. I assume it must mean anti-sovereignty. Ah Mary, there you go again dreaming. You somehow think the poorest of the poor will challenge the sovereignty of the world’s only remaining superpower. It must be nice to live in Mary-land….no offense to my neighbors in Md. Actually when I see anti-sov I think we are back in the cold war, but that’s my problem. That kind of anti-Sov at least made some sense.

    As I mentioned in another post, I don’t think it is feasible to deport 12 or 20 million people, I don’t think that even if it were that it could be done in a way that would not trample our Constitution and make a mockery of our traditions. And the thing I love best in this country in national terms is our Bill of Rights. In this area there is a lot of illegal immigration from places far from the Americas and frankly I think it is a benefit to US foreign policy as welll as our economy that those immigrants are here sending home remittances. I favor speeding up the process for those who have followed all the rules to immigrate here. I then favor EITHER putting most illegal immigrants on a path toward legalization and ultimately citizenship or widening our existing guest worker program. That program, I think I read in a recent Post story already demands that employers trying first to hire Americans and then moving on to guest labor if they can’t. I don’t have any objection to that being a requirement strictly enforced. You might be interested in the article that discusses why, to take one example, almost all life guards in the summer in this area are from Eastern Europe. But then you don’t read newspapers right? Cuz that would make you a (drum roll) professional!

    Finally, if forced to choose between a mass deportation of 12-20 million people and the current status quo of no reform whatsoever toward legalizing folks, I would choose the current status quo.

  155. Mary said on 28 Jul 2007 at 10:52 pm:
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    Athough, I would also note that a very large percentage of illegal aliens are having SS and other payroll taxes withheld that according to an NYT story I read amount to a subsidy of SS in the billions of dollars.

    SS payments go to SS, not to “free” healthcare, “free” bilingual education, “free” Wic vouchers and all the rest. Please stop with the snow jobs.

    Frankly that’s the price they pay for transgressing our laws. Shit happens, oh well.

    I pay 20K in state income taxes, the highest sales tax in the nation, among the highest property taxes in the nation, and 35K in federal income tax on top of that. On top of SS and Medicare payments too.

  156. BornHere said on 28 Jul 2007 at 10:54 pm:
    Flag comment

    Ah ManassasCityResident, I missed you! Yeah, the NYT, spawn of the devil. But I am happy to see that you don’t believe illegal immigrants pay into Social Security and other payroll taxes because that must mean you don’t think they or their employers are making up fake SS numbers so they can do so. Gee, even I know that maybe as many as 50 percent of illegal immigrants are using fake SS numbers. But it is very nice that you believe they don’t compound their illegal actions being here by faking it with SS. What a softie :)

  157. Mary said on 28 Jul 2007 at 11:02 pm:
    Flag comment

    Mary, you’re so cute, you flatter me, honestly if you think I’m professional. Or maybe it is just on the West Coast that gee you don’t have that many people who are really excited about politics and are news junkies who can use Google unless they are professional. Or maybe you just think anyone who can find a statistic has to be a professional because it would be so hard to type a cogent phrase in Google and arrive at anything, or benefit from reading two print papers (WP and NYT of course) a day and lots of other news outlets. Whatever, it’s cute but boring. You will make East Coasters think that those stereotypes of lala land are true. I don’t believe they are. I know a lot of poitically savvy Californians, but you certainly are adding evidence.

    Again with the liberal use of insults. You are really a piece of work, aren’t you? Your Sister Mary Innocent act has been blown all to bits by your inability to refrain from abuse.

    I guess what threw me is your fake noun. No Mare, I don’t promote the rights of illegal immigrants over native-born Americans or legal immigrants, no.

    Well, actually, yes you do. Such as promoting the taxation without representation of legal US citizens to finance “rights” such as a “free” education for the illegals.

    And perhaps it is because you are so far away in lala land that you would talk in terms of Mexican colonization. Mexicans are only a small minority of the Latino illegal (or for that matter legal) immigrants in Northern Virginia, the focus of this blog. “Anti-sov” I have seen on this blog and other forums like it, but never before that. I assume it must mean anti-sovereignty. Ah Mary, there you go again dreaming. You somehow think the poorest of the poor will challenge the sovereignty of the world’s only remaining superpower.

    I live in a state where the Mexican government successfully collaborated with “legal” Mexican-”American” politicians to thwart the democratic will of the legal electorate. Anti-sov is an apt description of the open borders crowd. After all if illegals have the same “rights” as American citizens, what’s the point of having a country? Exactimundo, there isn’t one. Which is the whole point of the open borders movement anyways.

    PS — I really don’t get the reference to “New Ageny.” I’ve said nothing “New Agey” in the least. “New Agers” in CA are in fact mostly pro-open-borders and pro-illegal. I’m a hardline pro-sov, pro-borders American patriot.

    As I mentioned in another post, I don’t think it is feasible to deport 12 or 20 million people, I don’t think that even if it were that it could be done in a way that would not trample our Constitution and make a mockery of our traditions.

    Well no one’s asking for deportation of 12 to 20 million people. We are asking for attrition through enforcement.

    PS — Giving illegal foreigners “rights” that are the rightful property of legal citizens is not within our traditions. Neither is taxation without representation. We fought a war over that one, remember?

    But then you don’t read newspapers right? Cuz that would make you a (drum roll) professional!

    Sister Mary Innocent shows her claws yet again. Yawn.

  158. BornHere said on 28 Jul 2007 at 11:03 pm:
    Flag comment

    PS: I just Googled it, the April 5, 2005 NYT story:

    “Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions”

    and it has a chart from the Government Accounting Office of the SS Administration, but we all know that the SS’s GAO is in bed with the NYT right? So all the data is made up, right? I wonder if anyone on this list works for any of the GAO’s in town and can tell us how they sit around pulling numbers out of their….um hats.

    Fun quote in story: “Illegal immigration, Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University, noted sardonically, could provide “the fastest way to shore up the long-term finances of Social Security.”

    PPS to Mary. I thought you might want to know that I found the NYT story again by the amazing feat of putting the words Illegal immigrants social security billions into Google. It’s this secret kind of logic only us professional know, but I can keep giving you pointers if you want. Doing it that way gets you around the paid archive. Oh my god, I let you know the biggest secret of all!

  159. Mary said on 28 Jul 2007 at 11:05 pm:
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    everyone has a right to an education

    Well no, you don’t have the “right” to an education financed by other peoples’ money, especially if you are here illegally and not paying taxes. I don’t expect Mexico to pay for my child’s education and really would like to see Mexico return the favor. PS Mexico is the world’s 12th largest economy. It’s not in any way a “poor” country.

  160. Mary said on 28 Jul 2007 at 11:07 pm:
    Flag comment

    Fun quote in story: “Illegal immigration, Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University, noted sardonically, could provide “the fastest way to shore up the long-term finances of Social Security.”

    No, I don’t believe this propaganda piece from the Open Borders Times. But at any rate, if it’s true, then it’s just the price they pay for breaking our laws. Too bad.

  161. Mary said on 28 Jul 2007 at 11:08 pm:
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    Born Here,

    Give it a rest. Your frantic efforts to prove your intellectual superiority are falling on fallow ground. Your childish insults are likewise not impressing anyone.

    You are however providing much-needed entertainment on a dull Saturday evening.

  162. AWCheney said on 28 Jul 2007 at 11:09 pm:
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    Ateacher (I REALLY hope that is not a descriptive pseudonym), your insinuation that I am lying or fantasizing is insulting and presumptuous, and really quite juvenile. First of all, the “Lexus SUV” story was not even mine…it came from an entirely different thread from someone entirely other than me. TH suggested a “SUV” story, which I don’t even recall relating but I gave it pass because I have witnessed such things on numerous occasions, although I’m pretty certain that I never related one here. I only mentioned the “minivan” incident because I was unaware that both WIC and food stamps could not be used at the same time. I suggest that, if you people want to nitpick, you nitpick with at least some consistency and accuracy.

    Insofar as an illegal alien being in possession of a food stamp card, you are indeed quite naive to believe that they are not securing them. THAT is the whole point of the local jurisdictions DEMANDING that the laws be enforced (the “Resolution”)…because the illegal aliens are indeed routinely partaking of social services to which they are not entitled by law! The laws are simply being ignored.

  163. BornHere said on 28 Jul 2007 at 11:26 pm:
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    Mary, Mary, you see you and the others here wore me down since I was civil to a fault for so long. But you especially, with the whole “you’re a professional” shtick. In any case, I can stop being playful. I would venture to say my playfulness is in another league from being told I can’t live in my own country if I don’t swear allegiance to the words of TR on having only one language spoken and one flag shown in the US period.

    “New Agey” was because of what you think happens to Internet links when you follow them from sites like Media Matters instead of just taking MM’s or anyone else’s links to national medical statistical sources on face value. I’m an empiricist myself, but I was just trying to be tolerant of mysticism.

    I absolutely do not believe in taxation without representation. I am so glad you don’t either. That must mean you are a DC-voting rights supporter because right now all the people living in DC pay taxes without having proper voting rights and full representation in Congress and that isn’t just. Yay, we can count on you to push for DC rights. It almost happened via a compromise with Utah getting another Congressional seat to cancel out DC’s sure Democratic seat, but the deal all fell apart.

    Illegal immigrants actually do pay taxes, they pay sales tax all the time and many pay into SS and other payroll taxes. But you are absolutely right, they don’t pay like the rest of us do, or at least the rest of us non-rich dolts without tax shelters. Hell, I am a renter, so I don’t even have the most basic tax subsidy of all. It’s like burning money, I know.

    If illegal immigrants were legalized, they could pay like the rest of us, so that would address your concern. Here’s an interesting idea from a libertarian free market site:

    “Yes, many illegal migrants impose a strain on border communities on whose doorstep they first arrive, broke and unemployed. To solve this problem equitably, these communities ought to receive the surplus taxes that federal government collects from immigrants. But the real reason border communities are strained is the lack of a guest worker program. Such a program would match willing workers with willing employers in advance so that they wouldn’t be stuck for long periods where they disembark while searching for jobs.”

    It is from a larger article

    http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060501.shtml

    on all the taxes illegal immigrants pay
    and begins:

    “The fact that illegal immigrants pay taxes at all will come as news to many Americans. A stunning two-thirds of illegal immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes. Yet, nativists like Congressman Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., have popularized the notion that illegal aliens are a colossal drain on the nation’s hospitals, schools and welfare programs — consuming services that they don’t pay for.”

    I’m not a free-market libertarian as the folks are who produce Reason magazine, but that is what came up when I was quickly trying to find out about property taxes, since I already knew about sales, SS, income, and payroll.

    And, um, yes, many people here and in other forums have called for a mass deportation. For one thing, you would at least have to have some kind of beginning of that for the attrition you mention to even have a jump start. But some folks don’t want to wait for attrition. They don’t have your patience, or perhaps they think it wouldn’t work. They want a round up. I see statements to that effect all the time. But I am quite pleased you reject that option.

  164. anonymous said on 29 Jul 2007 at 12:08 am:
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    “Hell, I am a renter, so I don’t even have the most basic tax subsidy of all.”

    As a property owner who is also a landlord, rest assured that if I didn’t get that tax “subsidy” I’d pass the extra cost along to you. You’d pay more rent.

    In the case of rental property it really is just another deductible business expense. What I collect in rent minus what I spend on interest and repairs/maintenance is my profit and that is what I am taxed on. It is the same for any other business.

    Plus I should mention that the tax savings of the mortgage interest tax deduction is only typically 25% of what you pay in interest and continues to go down as you own the property (unless you have an interest-only mortgage).

  165. anonymous said on 29 Jul 2007 at 12:11 am:
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    “Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions”

    Yea, so Google the following terms

    mexico
    totalization
    agreement

  166. AWCheney said on 29 Jul 2007 at 12:43 am:
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    Here’s a sampling of some interesting stats I came across at a web site that they took from the 2006 (lst Qtr) INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigration.

    For those who believe that illegal aliens are paying their tax burden:

    62% of all “undocumented immigrants” in the United States are working for cash and not paying taxes, predominantly illegal aliens, working without a green card.

    For those who believe that illegal aliens are not feeding at the public trough because it is illegal for them to do so:

    More than 43% of all Food Stamps issued are to illegal aliens.

    58% of all welfare payments in the United States are issued to illegal aliens.

    Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties in the United States are illegal aliens.

    More than 41% of all unemployment checks issued in the United States are to illegal aliens.

    More than 380,000 “anchor babies” born in the United States in 2005 were to parents who are illegal aliens; making those 380,000 babies automatically U.S. citizens. 97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid by the American taxpayer.

    For those who believe that all illegal aliens are hard-working, law-abiding people paying their way who should receive amnesty and remain amongst us in perpetuity:

    29% (630,000) of convicted illegal aliens in state and federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually.

    Less than 2% of illegal aliens in the United States are picking crops, but 41% are on welfare.

    Then there’s the bill:

    The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican illegal alien on the average American taxpayer is $55,000 over a five-year span. You personally are giving $11,000 every year to illegal aliens.

    And the reason why the Federal Government is loathe to enforce the laws governing this issue, given the modern “corporate welfare state” mentality (which is totally contrary to the small business oriented and entrepreneurial mindset that I remember being a Republican Party/Conservative staple):

    The estimated profit to U.S. corporations and businesses employing illegal aliens in 2005 was more than $2.36 trillion dollars!

    For those who would like to see the full entry, you can find it at:

    http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/guntalk/config.pl?noframes;read=46674

  167. ateacher said on 29 Jul 2007 at 12:50 am:
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    AW Cheney…I did not attribute the “new Lexus SUV” comment to you. It belongs to Carrie Oliver who wrote a letter to the editor this week in the MJM where she stated exactly what you did…an hispanic woman used food stamps and WIC vouchers and drove off in a new vehicle. Call me juvenile if you please, but what I really cannot figure out is how one knows for a FACT that the person in front of them using a food stamp card is illegal and how they could insinuate without any proof that the person is not entiltled to the service? I’m sure there are plenty of hispanic people who receieve TANF legally, and yet I’m not unaware that that fraud occurs. What I cannot do however is stand behind a person in the grocery store and determine for a fact that they have illegally obtained their foodstamp card, nor can I claim the vehicle they drive away in belongs to them. I cannot tell by looking at someone that they are in this country illegally.

  168. AWCheney said on 29 Jul 2007 at 1:10 am:
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    It’s a matter of deduction ateacher, and the odds. Given the “public record” financial requirements to qualify for public assistance, only someone “living under the radar” would be able to afford a fully tricked out, brand-spanking new extended minivan like that and still qualify. And since we’re nitpicking here, I never said “illegal alien”…I merely said she was an Hispanic lady. You were the one that made that assumption. So what does that say about you.

  169. Legal2 said on 29 Jul 2007 at 1:17 am:
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    ateacher. That’s why asking legal status of anyone (not based on race) who is detained by police or requesting public services (not already allowed by law) is such a great start. Because costs to everyone are out of control, because you cannot determine “by looking” at someone whether they are legal, because quality of life and property values are plummeting while foreclosures are going up, because we continue to be taxed for road improvements which do not get done, because those who use this new class of slaves are greedy politicos and employers, because those who use immigrants as an excuse to undermine our law and order, and system of government which worked so well for 200+ years, as long immigration was controlled as its borders were protected and thereby its sovereignty, are known subversive revolutionaries, we are standing up to say ENOUGH!

  170. Legal2 said on 29 Jul 2007 at 1:23 am:
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    On WMAL Midnight news, it was reported that over 1,000 Latinos rallied in Manassas (at All Saints on Thursday) to plan week-long boycotts and set up hotlines for Latinos who feel they are discriminated against. The “pastor” indicated the meeting was simply for Ricardo Juarez et al. to inform (Latino) parishioners how the PWC resolution would affect them. Strange that Mexicanos Sin Fonteras and WWC want to incite discord among ALL immigrants. They still don’t get that it’s about illegals?

  171. BornHere said on 29 Jul 2007 at 1:26 am:
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    # anonymous said on 29 Jul 2007 at 12:08 am:

    “As a property owner who is also a landlord, rest assured that if I didn’t get that tax “subsidy” I’d pass the extra cost along to you. You’d pay more rent.

    In the case of rental property it really is just another deductible business expense. What I collect in rent minus what I spend on interest and repairs/maintenance is my profit and that is what I am taxed on. It is the same for any other business.

    Plus I should mention that the tax savings of the mortgage interest tax deduction is only typically 25% of what you pay in interest and continues to go down as you own the property (unless you have an interest-only mortgage).”

    Anonymous, I wasn’t making any disparaging remark about the mortgage tax deduction or landlords. I was making a disparaging remark about me, or about my being so foolish as to rent. That is why I said that I was “burning money.” I am sorry I used the word subsidy. You are right to put it in quotes, it probably isn’t correct. I made the error of not buying a place 15 years ago, give or take. Now it isn’t so much I couldn’t afford to, but that the prices in this area blow my mind, I like living very close to DC, and now it makes more economic sense to rent even though I have no tangible asset that way. In fact I know some people who used to own, but now rent, by choice. I certainly sympathize with you on your responsibilities and aggravations as a landlord.

  172. Mary said on 29 Jul 2007 at 1:41 am:
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    Born Here:
    Mary, Mary, you see you and the others here wore me down since I was civil to a fault for so long. But you especially, with the whole “you’re a professional” shtick. In any case, I can stop being playful. I would venture to say my playfulness is in another league from being told I can’t live in my own country if I don’t swear allegiance to the words of TR on having only one language spoken and one flag shown in the US period.

    Actually I no longer believe you are a professional. You blew your cool far too quickly for that. Maybe a volunteer for some shabby “immigrants rights” group but not a trained pro.

    I absolutely do not believe in taxation without representation. I am so glad you don’t either. That must mean you are a DC-voting rights supporter because right now all the people living in DC pay taxes without having proper voting rights and full representation in Congress and that isn’t just. Yay, we can count on you to push for DC rights. It almost happened via a compromise with Utah getting another Congressional seat to cancel out DC’s sure Democratic seat, but the deal all fell apart.

    This has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Bizarre of you to even bring it up. The fact is, if you support tax-payer funded, court-mandated “entitlements” for illegals, you support taxation without representation. See discussion of Plyler vs. Doe.

    If illegal immigrants were legalized, they could pay like the rest of us, so that would address your concern. Here’s an interesting idea from a libertarian free market site:

    Low-skilled, high-birth rate immigrants will cost more than anything they pay into, and, once legalized en masse, will be able to vote themselves plenty of more “free” benefits at the expense of the native-born like myself. Most would probably qualify for earned-income tax credits of 5K per year. Multiply 5K per year by 20 million and see what happens. No sale.

    I’m not a free-market libertarian as the folks are who produce Reason magazine, but that is what came up when I was quickly trying to find out about property taxes, since I already knew about sales, SS, income, and payroll.

    They’re not “free market” nor ‘libertarian” if they support open borders plus a modern welfare state. Open borders plus a welfare state is not a sustainable concept, for obvious reasons.

    Corporate interests have hijacked our welfare state and are using it to subsidize their “cheap’ labor while middle-class saps pick up the tab. It’s not a sustainable model either but I guess with the short-term thinking that characterizes much of corporate life these days, they probably think they can figure out what to do later on, after the middle-class legal American citizenry has been sucked completely dry.

    Legal 2:

    On WMAL Midnight news, it was reported that over 1,000 Latinos rallied in Manassas (at All Saints on Thursday) to plan week-long boycotts and set up hotlines for Latinos who feel they are discriminated against. The “pastor” indicated the meeting was simply for Ricardo Juarez et al. to inform (Latino) parishioners how the PWC resolution would affect them. Strange that Mexicanos Sin Fonteras and WWC want to incite discord among ALL immigrants. They still don’t get that it’s about illegals?

    You don’t understand the la raza mindset. They are loyal to their “race”, not this country, nor to their fellow American citizens. An illegal alien, if they are a member of la raza, who squeezed under the border three days ago means more to them than the non-Hispanic American they’ve lived next to for years.

    I am not saying that all people of Hispanic origin think this way, but a great many of them do. That’s why you see organizations of Latino-”Americans” who are anti-US-sovereignty and totally unconcerned with what open borders is doing to our country and our citizenry.

  173. BornHere said on 29 Jul 2007 at 2:13 am:
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    Wow Mary, you used “en masse,” that can get you into trouble here. Glad to see you now realize I am not a professional, even if you had to do it by insulting me. And no, I don’t volunteer for any immigrants’ or other political group, shabby or otherwise. That was kind of mean. Spiffy political groups aren’t spending their money the right way. I just really am interested in politics.

    But I do want to thank you Mary. Your initial mistaking me for a professional, whether just as insulting rhetoric to irk me or a true mistake, made me realize that I shouldn’t be writing here and I should only read and not post. This isn’t because I am unwilling to debate, I clearly am willing, or because I secretly think you all are right, I don’t remotely think that.

    However I get totally addicted to this kind of back and forth, which is why I’m up at 2 am, and unfortunately I have a job with no end, could be 24/7 and it wouldn’t be done. I have been neglecting it the past few days crafting constant, I admit, and overlong, I admit too, posts on this blog full of citations etc. that are probably irrelevant here. I also fell into the trap of matching incivility with incivility and that isn’t particularly cool either. One thing I have noted about Greg L. is how much he distances himself from that kind of heat when he writes. Well I haven’t gone through all the archives, but in the threads I have seen it seems true. I also respect someone so deeply into local/state politics when so many Americans are apathetic–dangerously so about the issues far more central to me than this one, like civil liberties, the Supreme Court, and the war.

    But this is really a forum for HSM and likeminded thinkers and it is a pep rally for the big game. Pep rallies for the big game shouldn’t be expected to welcome or even tolerate players from the other team. It isn’t like the WPost forums where your perspective movement is also the majority opinion, but where the intent is different and it is grounded in news articles we have all read.

    Anyway, see I’m spamming again, take care Mary and I hope you get your mechanical harvester. Have a good vacation P. Hi to TH and thanks for being a kinder and charming voice here Dolph. I’ll be reading the blog regularly out of curiosity about Manassas but not writing, unless someone indicates an email address. I am fairly certain that won’t happen. ;) If I don’t do this, I will be even more swamped than I am, which is hard to imagine. I have a lot of trouble ignoring an argument and am addicted to text.

  174. Dolph said on 29 Jul 2007 at 8:52 am:
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    Born Here,

    dolphin_moon@excite.com

  175. Mary said on 29 Jul 2007 at 11:27 am:
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    Born Here,

    Good heavens, don’t run away on MY account.

  176. Dolph said on 29 Jul 2007 at 12:38 pm:
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    I sure don’t see Born Here as a runaway type. I expect she just finds the company tiresome and a waste of energy.

  177. Mary said on 29 Jul 2007 at 1:04 pm:
    Flag comment

    She wasn’t able to refute a single point of mine reasonably. She got her butt handed to her and sulked away like a pouting child. At the end she was reduced to blubbering about voting rights in the District of Columbia, a completely irrelevant subject.

    I found THAT tiresome and a waste of energy.

  178. Dolph said on 29 Jul 2007 at 1:59 pm:
    Flag comment

    In your mind Mary, only in your mind.

    Do you really feel mean-spiritedness will solve any problems?

    I am not so sure that how much money you make or how Mexicans behave in California is really relevant to many of our issues here in the Manassas area but I am not keeping score or counting coup.

    Born Here brought a different perspective and I found what she had to say interesting, even if I didn’t agree with her every point. Other people’s ideas just don’t threaten me. If I learn something new, then I am better off.

  179. manassascityresident said on 29 Jul 2007 at 3:12 pm:
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    Dolph -
    That’s the problem - you weren’t learning anything new - you were just being fed a pack of crap. I know you’d like to see the “best” in everyone, but jeez, wake up sister! Are you really as naive as you sound….?

  180. Dolph said on 29 Jul 2007 at 4:38 pm:
    Flag comment

    Manassas City Resident,

    Oh if you only knew…..if you only knew. Actually you don’t know anything at all about me to even make a conjecture.

    I have probably rubbed elbows with more thugs than most people here.

    I certainly do not see the best in everyone, starting right here. Actually, I don’t even usually try to see the best in anyone. I just try to have better manners. It’s a southern thing.

    Do you really feel you are that superior? Perhaps it is compensation.

    Dolph

    ……….”Good breeding consists of concealing how much we think of ourselves and how little we think of the other person.”…Mark Twain

  181. manassascityresident said on 29 Jul 2007 at 6:03 pm:
    Flag comment

    Twain won’t help us here…..

  182. manassascityresident said on 29 Jul 2007 at 6:08 pm:
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    PS -
    You may want to go back and read ALL of your posts before you go calling anyone “superior” my dear…..

  183. Dolph said on 29 Jul 2007 at 6:34 pm:
    Flag comment

    I will leave that to you, but please feel free to point out my superior attitude to me, when you run across it.

  184. TH said on 29 Jul 2007 at 7:39 pm:
    Flag comment

    Bornhere,
    I think that what most people around here want is to quiet us down.
    I understand that you don’t want to post. Well, I thought about doing the same thing yesterday but I couldn’t resist today.
    You don’t have to post as Bornhere, make up a name.
    You don’t have to debate here, that is not the purpose. You will never get a debate (Geg L does a good job about being realistic).
    You can annoy a couple of folks though!!!! I am just kidding regulars. If you come to read then you won’t enjoy the creativity of folks such As AWcheney that tell variants of the same stodies about vans, no SUV full of illegal aliens who bought food with stamps. At least when we force them to say something we stimulate their creative juices.
    You will miss Patriot trying to come up with a number of how many people Eisenhower sent back to Mexico.
    Won’t you miss people calling you a liberal?or thecatchy phrases: Illegal is Illegal.

  185. TH said on 29 Jul 2007 at 7:46 pm:
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    Mary,
    “Low-skilled, high-birth rate immigrants will cost more than anything they pay into”
    Who by the way they are your neighbors. Gosh Mary what did you do with your life to end up living next to them.
    You don’t need to answer: You are proud people who love the place where they have always been for generations.
    You see all these problems and still you don’t want to move. I understand that and I commend you but you have to accept that this place is cheap, otherwise illegal aliens with their one hundred kids each wouldn’t come to live there.
    How do you explain that Mary?
    I mean I don’t see them coming to live in Chevy Chase. The problem you have has been cause by a lot of economic factors. Illegal aliens next to you is just the result of those factors coming to your neighborhood.

  186. TH said on 29 Jul 2007 at 7:52 pm:
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    Mary,
    “She wasn’t able to refute a single point of mine reasonably. She got her butt handed to her and sulked away like a pouting child”
    And you won and feel great! Now you have a great neighborhood and have solved all the problems caused by illegal immigration.
    Debating is aboout finding solutions and not just beating another person.
    I haven’t read any convincing argument about how to solve this problem. Some of you are getting ready for a revolution. Others bring fake data but none has proposed something effective.
    I am not pro illegal immigration but the truth folks is that you haven’t convinced me that by getting rid of all of them will solve our economic problems.

  187. Mary said on 29 Jul 2007 at 8:02 pm:
    Flag comment

    TH Who by the way they are your neighbors. Gosh Mary what did you do with your life to end up living next to them.

    What’s this pointless comment about, exactly? They cost me money, they’ve ruined my homeland, and they’re here illegally. Case closed. I don’t live in Northern Virginia; I live in Mexifornia. I don’t live next to them but they come in my town anyways — they go everywhere they want, they break all kinds of laws, and no one does anything about them. Some of them live (illegally) in the woods; some of them tend illicit dope plantations on state and national parks and destroy our (formerly) pristine wilderness.

    You don’t need to answer: You are proud people who love the place where they have always been for generations.

    Why on earth do you expect native-born, law-abiding, tax-paying Americans to vacate their homelands just because law-breaking, non-tax-paying, foreign national criminals have invaded their neighborhoods? Your head is really screwed up if that’s what you think. “Oh, the real Americans can just move away and leave their homeland to the illegals!” And you wonder why people here think “Hispanics” are arrogant.

    Dolphin: In your mind Mary, only in your mind.

    Do you really feel mean-spiritedness will solve any problems?

    Born Here is quite the mean-spirited one herself, and her sense of superiority came through with every post. I guess she was one of those who could dish it out, but not take it. You sound like you are headed for the same place.

  188. Mary said on 29 Jul 2007 at 8:05 pm:
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    I am not pro illegal immigration

    Could have fooled me.

    but the truth folks is that you haven’t convinced me that by getting rid of all of them will solve our economic problems.

    Who on earth said getting rid of illegals would “solve” our economic problem? We are saying we don’t want to pay for our own colonization by a foreign, law-breaking, arrogant people.

    We are fighting for our rights of self-determination as a sovereign people, not quibbling over “economic problems.”

    While my homeland is destroyed every day by the illegals and their fifth columnist enablers, economics is the last thing on my mind.

  189. TH said on 29 Jul 2007 at 8:22 pm:
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    Again Mary, Why do they live next to you and not in my neighborhood? I think I know the answer, they cannot afford to come here but to clean. What do you think about that? Economy is still an issue because they are coming to destroy places that you economy has rotten

  190. TH said on 29 Jul 2007 at 8:25 pm:
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    “I live in Mexifornia. I don’t live next to them but they come in my town anyways” My condoleneces, you live in a worse place that I expected.

  191. TH said on 29 Jul 2007 at 8:28 pm:
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    “in the woods; some of them tend illicit dope plantations on state and national parks and destroy our (formerly) pristine wilderness”
    And A white guy was raping latinas here in Maryland, so not all of you are law abiding, right?
    Again your anecdotes don’t convince me.

  192. Mary said on 29 Jul 2007 at 9:16 pm:
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    Again Mary, Why do they live next to you and not in my neighborhood? I think I know the answer, they cannot afford to come here but to clean.

    I live in a town were a 1600-square-foot fixer-upper starts at 800K. That doesn’t keep them out.

    Again your anecdotes don’t convince me.

    Mexican drug cartels planting dope on Calif. national (and state) parks:

    http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/11/18/DRUGS.TMP

    Plenty more links where that came from if official Congressional testimony is too “anecdotal” for you. Dope is Mexifornia’s largest cash crop and the Mexican cartels control 90 percent of it. They use illegals to tend the crops, causing massive environmental damage in the process.

    Illegals living in hills around San Diego:

    http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006/11/19/news/top_stories/111806122050.txt

    Plenty more links where that came from too.

  193. park'd said on 29 Jul 2007 at 9:58 pm:
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    “She wasn’t able to refute a single point of mine reasonably. She got her butt handed to her and sulked away like a pouting child. At the end she was reduced to blubbering about voting rights in the District of Columbia, a completely irrelevant subject.

    I found THAT tiresome and a waste of energy.”

    She got her butt handed to her in all of the verbal sparrings where she and I paired off as well. I will somewhat miss her witty and craftily clever plays on words though but alas she was all about style and nothing of substance. Next time I just hope she comes back ready to do battle with the big boys (and girls).

  194. Legal2 said on 30 Jul 2007 at 7:53 am:
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    Mary, thanks for the links and info on Mexiforinigate. Coming to a neighborhood near you/us I am sure. The subversive take-overs are definitely in the plans of Mexicanos Sin Fronteras/Woodbridge Workers (sounds so communist you’d think they’d be more creative) who want to replace our elected officials with their own (and I’m sure they don’t mean the Latinos in www.dontspeakforme.org ) I appreciate your input, but have to agree with some readers that the worn “dialog” of TH and Bornhere made us come to the “consensus” that the rainy day was better spent cleaning our guns and target practice.

  195. Bridget said on 30 Jul 2007 at 11:56 am:
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    Apparently, Illinois is not spending enough on culturally sensitive outreach,education and prevention programs:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-070724marijuanajul24,0,59779.story

    Environmental damage is not the only danger. The safety of park rangers, campers, hikers and hunters is also at stake.

    http://www.jointogether.org/news/headlines/inthenews/2003/national-park-service-by.html

  196. TH said on 30 Jul 2007 at 1:37 pm:
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    Legal2,
    Why do you have to resort to guns? Do you think it will subversive to elect a Hispanic official?

  197. TH said on 30 Jul 2007 at 1:44 pm:
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    “I live in a town were a 1600-square-foot fixer-upper starts at 800K. That doesn’t keep them out.”
    Man, land is cheap over there!!!!

  198. ateacher said on 30 Jul 2007 at 4:15 pm:
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    AW Cheney…my bad, you’re correct that I made the jump from hispanic to illegal. It was wrong of me to make the assumption that you meant illegal when referring to the hispanic woman just because you happen to voice anti-illegal ideals. The conversations we had however got me interested in the whole food stamp issue, so I did a little research. I have discovered that some of my assumptions were wrong and I discovered just how confusing and ever changing the requirements for food stamps are. I wanted to know exactly what the participation rates for the FSP were, so I went directly to the USDA which controls the program. I found some interesting things:

    1) The official data for FY 2005 was just reported in June of 2007. So basically there is no current data avail from the USDA for FY 2006. Don’t ask me what takes them so long.

    2) In FY 2005 there were 38 million people eligible for the food stamp program, but only 25 million actually participated. Thats a 65 % participation rate.

    3) Those eligible for the FSP declined from 44 million in 1994 to 38 million in 2005. Likewise the participation rate also declined. Much of this was due to changes in the eligibility requirements put forth in 2003.

    4) Of the 24,571,000 FSP participants in FY 2005, 936,000 were classified as “noncitizens”, and 1,781,000 were classified as citizen children residing with non-citizen adults.

    5) Cost: 23.88 billion

  199. -kf said on 30 Jul 2007 at 9:43 pm:
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    “Just what should happen when foreign nationals gather in the United States and start shouting that they intend to violently overthrow our government? ”

    They should be tried and convicted for insurrection and politely asked to begin building their own gallows.

  200. TH said on 31 Jul 2007 at 2:02 pm:
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    I get the feeling that some people in this blog are really interested in having chaos with fights all over the place. I haven’t read or seen any valid source telling me that there is a group preparing a revolution to overthrow this government.
    You will see though a lot of organization in the Latino Legal community to get citizenship and registered to vote. It happened in California with proposition 187. The Latino community registered and when to elect officials who supproted their cause. That is what you do
    I don’t see the system allowing a revolution. It didn’t work with the Weather Underground or Black Panthers.

  201. Bridget said on 31 Jul 2007 at 7:09 pm:
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    Yes comrades, That is what you do.

    We are not here to work, but to work the system.

    Overthrowing the government via the ballot box.
    Passing laws preferential to Latinos.
    Taxing the Gringos ’til thy bleed.
    Getting your hands on the US treasury by vote or violence … PRICELESS!

    Invasores ilegales,
    son ladrones criminales

    Illegal invaders are criminal thieves

  202. manassascityresident said on 31 Jul 2007 at 8:02 pm:
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    You’d make millions if you turned that into a commercial. Perfectly stated!

  203. Mary said on 1 Aug 2007 at 12:25 am:
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    It happened in California with proposition 187. The Latino community registered and when to elect officials who supproted their cause. That is what you do.

    The “Latino” community collaborated with the Mexican government and the left-wing courts to overturn the democratic will of native-born American people, expressed in a lawful and legal democratic referendum. There was nothing “democratic” about it.

    The result was tax slavery and taxation without representation for native-born Californians such as myself. However the traitorous “Latinos” won’t be victorious for long, because with the flight of native-born tax base from this state, they won’t for long have anyone to pay for all that “free” stuff for their illegal alien brethren.

  204. TH said on 2 Aug 2007 at 4:59 pm:
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    “Passing laws preferential to Latinos.
    Taxing the Gringos ’til thy bleed.
    Getting your hands on the US treasury by vote or violence … PRICELESS!”
    Well, black do this already and I don’t hear your fervor against it!

  205. AWCheney said on 2 Aug 2007 at 7:18 pm:
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    TH, Mary was expressing her experience in California where the problems surrounding the influx of illegal aliens have existed longer, and the illegal aliens are in greater numbers. Unless you have first-hand experience there, or can provide some links with statistics stating otherwise, you should perhaps be more concerned that her words are a portent of things to come. And BTW, that Hispanic prejudice against black Americans is showing very clearly in your comment. Is that also an urban legend?

  206. NoVA Scout said on 3 Aug 2007 at 8:21 am:
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    I assume that no one (even here) has any problem with immigrant citizens exercising a right to vote (?) (please tell me that this isn’t a controversial concept)

  207. Bridget said on 3 Aug 2007 at 5:57 pm:
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    “Well, black do this already and I don’t hear your fervor against it.”

    Holy mother of hubris. Hit a raw nerve there, perhaps?

    With your “…black do this already…” statement, you as much as admit to this being the goal.

    That illegal aliens swarm into our nation and claim that their CIVIL RIGHTS are abused the same way as BLACK AMERICANS were is a low blow to all who worked for the rights of BLACK AMERICANS to be treated with EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW.

    To conflate or connect the two is a farce.

    Americans are told that we must “Respond to the needs of the Community”. A community of invaders who want to be admired, protected and acknowledged in nothing but the most positive terms, even when they are contemptuous of the very people whose support and admiration they want.

    There are those who see nothing wrong with racial discrimination when it comes to race-based entitlements and taxpayer funded government aid, as long as they are the ones recieving the benefits. There is no doubt that some used the Civil Rights movement to practice ethnic identity extortion - A racial spoils system and wealth distribution scam. And it is clear that there are those who now want to jump on that gravy train.

    If people who speak hundreds of languages come to America and learn to speak English, then why do we have to press 2 for Spanish and pay to have government documents translated into Spanish? Because, we are told, Hispanics are the Majority minority! And the majority rules in the world of minorities.

    Why am I now officially classified as a Non-Hispanic White? It implies that:

    A. Most Hispanics are White

    B. That we already live in a Hispanic majority country.

    C. That on the list of racial classifications, I now sit on the bottom, below Hispanic White, and as such have no rights - only obligations. Gives the term bottom feeder a whole new twist.

    As for “…fervor against it.” I will gladly denounce anyone who attemps to teach the tricks of the trade involved in getting taken care of by someone else.

    The writtings of Ward Connerly and Thomas Sowell have covered the topic far better than I ever could.

    ” Publicly inconsolable about the fact that racism continues: these activist seem privatly terrified that it has abated.” Dinesh D’Souza

  208. AWCheney said on 4 Aug 2007 at 3:30 am:
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    Not at all NoVA…I’m one of those “immigrant citizens” myself. The problem is there is no longer any proof of citizenship required, or even requested, to register to vote…it’s all the “honor” system, and they don’t follow up. Do you honestly believe that none of those illegal aliens who stole their way across the border and lie on a daily basis to stay here would have any problem lying about that if unscrupulous people gave them incentive to do so…like telling them they need to vote for people who will give them amnesty, and anything else they want?

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