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End The Unlawful Hearings
By Greg L | 2 August 2007 | Prince William County | 40 Comments
Help Save Manassas has learned that the hearings currently underway by the Prince William County Human Rights Commission regarding the resolution adopted by the Board of County Supervisors on July 10th were commenced not as the response to a complaint alleging unlawful discrimination, as the statute governing this commission would require, but because Mexicanos Sin Fronteras asked for it. Chairman of the Commission Curtis Porter, who denied that these hearings were even hearings, also denied that the commission was responding to any third party request. Seeing that Curtis Porter provided multiple incompatible rationales during last evening’s meeting of the Immigration Committee, how likely is it that we’re not getting the real story about why this unlawful hearing is being conducted?
We’ll see about this. In five days the county must respond to a Freedom of Information Act Request requesting all records relating to how these hearings were established. Assuming that the Human Rights Commission faithfully fulfills this request, we may get additional information about how these hearings actually came to be, and whether the Human Rights Commission was acting within it’s statutory authority in creating this forum.
Earlier today Help Save Manassas called on County Executive Craig Gerhart to terminate these hearings, or provide a legal basis for them to be held. Should these unlawful hearings continue, Help Save Manassas may file for an injunction to have them stopped. If the illegal alien lobby thought for one moment that they could use the Human Rights Commission to overturn a decision by the Prince William Board of County Supervisors that was supported by huge portions of the electorate, and to which Help Save Manassas was dedicated, they’re out of their minds.
Mexicanos Sin Fronteras asked for the County Police Department to institute a policy to back off on illegal aliens back in 2005, and we saw last month what happened to that policy, once the public was made aware of what it was. This time, we know what they’re doing as they do it.
The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.
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[…] Update: Greg has more information about this issue: […]
Why don’t we find out how to stop these hearings? Suggestions anyone?
Call your supervisor, and the County Exec. Tell them you have read the HSM complaint, and agree with the complaint 100%
“Mexicanos Sin Fronteras asked for the County Police Department to institute a policy to back off on illegal aliens back in 2005″
So there you have it, Charlie Deane has been going behind the backs of people in PWC since 2005 to protect the illegals. ISn’t that about the same time that cop has the scuffle with the illegals in Dale City.
Deane is a fraud, let’s send him packing so I can have my county back to law and order.
Batson
100% agreement here too. I will call the above mentioned!!
I loved calling, faxing, and visiting these offices during June and early July. Thanks, gotta go make those calls and fire up the fax and phone lines, let’s not forget “shoot ‘em emails” too!!!!
Just a comment and a question. In The post Article on Greg, it says that HSM worked closely with Stirrup on the immigration law for PWC.
Given that MWB is another group representing citizens of the county (illegal most of them), Why do you see their involvement as illegal?
Don’t get me wrong, I am just saying that this group is legally established here and it is using the same methods that HSN is using to influence local government.
It is not unlawful for Mexicanos Sin Fronteras to try to advance their policy position, to ask government to respond to their concerns, or to speak at government meetings, and I’ve never said so.
It is unlawful for the Human Rights Commission to take direction from Mexicanos Sin Fronteras and hold hearings outside of the authority and powers granted to that body by the County Code. They cannot start hearings with a carefully selected group of organizations that they favor, they cannot start hearings without public notice, they cannot start hearings without a legal purpose, and they cannot, through those hearings, attempt to overturn the decisions of an elected body.
Read the complaint to Gerhardt. It should clarify a lot of things for you.
I get it now Greg. Good points!
TH-
MWB is a radical organization hell bent on getting amnesty for those who have broken our laws, who are here illegally. They plan on racial profiling to boycott businesses in the county, the same thing they are saying will happen when this resolution is implemented.
Help Save Manassas is an organization of U.S citizens and LEGAL residents committed to having our laws upheld. We don’t promote racial profiling. We don’t promote boycotting businesses based on the color of someone skin, like MWB plans to do. We simply want to stop the insanity that the illegal population is bringing to our communities. Overcrowding, driving with out licenses, growing corn in your front yards to feed the chickens in the back yard. The list goes on and on.
There are two sets of rules in this area. One for Legal Americans and one for illegal aliens, and we are tired of having to play by those separate rules.
Maureen,
I totally agree with you about citizens standing up for their rights. I have made my point before that when some of the postings make references to what you go through everyday, the chances of being heard increase.
When people start using the threat of using guns or referring to all illegal aliens as spanish-speaking people then the message is clouded and people calls you racists.
I think the boycott is bad for the cause of illegal aliens but also just bringing the passion to the dialogue doesn’t help HSM.
I know that this is a very delicate issue but you will have a better chance of being heard by people who are not involved now if you try to present what you deal with rather than trying to represent the illegal aliens in a negative way. Don’t get me wrong, what they do is negative for the community but you have to show what you stand for rather than wasting your time on portraying the opposite side
Seek the injunction! We are behind “Help Save Manassas”!
Today, I’m going to the barbershop and will pass the word about this great organization (Help Save Manassas) since many who go there are against and have a problem with downgrading of our communities because of illegals.
TH,
Please don’t confuse what MWB, WWC, and Unity in the Community are doing, with the cause of Civil Rights. The Civil Rights movement was grounded in, and supported by Federal Law. They were fighting for their Constituional rights. The PWC resolution is grounded in, and supported by Federal law.
Since the Supreme Court has ruled that illegal aliens are not a protected class of people, MWB, WWC, and Unity are fighting for rights that illegals have not been granted. They decry this resolution, which only affects illegal aliens as “racist”, yet their politics are purely race-based. The day-laborer conference that will be visiting Herndon, is doing so to protest the US governent conducting immigration raids. They are protesting something that the US government has statutory responsibility to do: enforce the law. MWB, WWC, and Unity in the Community are protesting the same thing. They are protesting the resolution which does nothing except direct the PWC Government to enforce existing law. These laws, when challenged, have withstood judicial oversight.
So there you have it. The pro-illegal lobby is representing an illegal constituancy, and protesting the lawful exercise of governmental authority. They are using race-based politics to do so. If you want to make an accurate comparison to the Civil Rights movement, then the WWC, MWB, and Unity in the Community are playing the role of the KKK.
Steve,
When did I mention the Civil Rights movement? I presented my question in a way that compared two groups based on their legality to lobby. The reasons and goals are different. I was happy with Greg’s logic. I read his complaint to Gerhardt and it has some valid points.
As Greg said it, they have the right to lobby for a policy they considered unjust. Do I agree with what they propose? No, but I think they have the right to do it. If you don’t give them that right then you will be playing the role of the KKK.
Greg:
Once again you have overstated your case and should have read the ordinances a little more carefully. I’m no fan of what they’re doing but the following sections do appear to authorize their actions:
Sec. 10.1-7. Functions and powers of the commission.
(b) Powers. The commission shall have all powers necessary to carry out the purposes and functions set forth in this chapter, which shall include, but are not limited to, those set forth in this subsection.
(6) To investigate by means of public hearings or otherwise any particular or general conditions having an adverse affect upon any rights protected by this chapter, including alleged violations of this chapter;
(7) To request the attendance of witnesses at public hearings, fact finding conferences or other investigative forums conducted by the commission and to take the testimony of such persons under oath or affirmation;
(8) To use such voluntary and uncompensated services of private persons, institutions, civic organizations, officials and advisory committees as may from time to time be offered and needed to perform advisory functions;
(9) To gather and disseminate information about discrimination and other human rights problems affecting the social, economic, cultural and other phases of community life within the county;
(10) To establish a forum for discussing discrimination and other human rights problems within the county and to form committees with representatives from concerned groups within the county to study and propose solutions to discrimination and other human rights problems within the county;
Greg:
Once again you have overstated your case and should have read the ordinances a little more carefully. I’m no fan of what they’re doing but the following sections do appear to authorize their actions:
Sec. 10.1-7. Functions and powers of the commission.
(b) Powers. The commission shall have all powers necessary to carry out the purposes and functions set forth in this chapter, which shall include, but are not limited to, those set forth in this subsection.
(6) To investigate by means of public hearings or otherwise any particular or general conditions having an adverse affect upon any rights protected by this chapter, including alleged violations of this chapter;
(7) To request the attendance of witnesses at public hearings, fact finding conferences or other investigative forums conducted by the commission and to take the testimony of such persons under oath or affirmation;
(8) To use such voluntary and uncompensated services of private persons, institutions, civic organizations, officials and advisory committees as may from time to time be offered and needed to perform advisory functions;
(9) To gather and disseminate information about discrimination and other human rights problems affecting the social, economic, cultural and other phases of community life within the county;
(10) To establish a forum for discussing discrimination and other human rights problems within the county and to form committees with representatives from concerned groups within the county to study and propose solutions to discrimination and other human rights problems within the county;
“The PWC resolution is grounded in, and supported by Federal law.”
It would apear, however, that the Congress is CHANGING those laws, most likely to stop the surge of grassroots involvement in addressing the illegal alien problems. The only thing we can do at the local level is enforce the laws involving local ordinances (which they tie up in court), public assistance and criminal activity…so give them public assistance LEGALLY. I cringe when I think what the next step might be when they address the criminal activity.
TH,
“TH” wouldn’t stand for Tudor Hall”, would it?
Yes, Tudor Hall Bed & Breakfast.
http://www.bbhost.com/tudorhall/
Maybe Tudor Hall Plantation?
http://www.pamplinpark.org/tudor_hall.html
Or just Tomas Hernandez
http://www.tomashernandez.net/
Your Choice My Friend!
Anon 1:35
Those powers are constrained by the functions and powers describe in 10.1-7(a), and the limitation of the scope of the commission’s duties to assist in the enforcement of civil rights laws as described in Sections 10.1-4 and 10.1-5.
Just because the commission has the power to hold hearings, they cannot hold hearings on the parks & recreation department’s budget, the need for a fire station in Dumfries, or special use permits for a tire recycling business, for example. They are narrowly constrained to deal with actual instances of unlawful discrimination in regards to housing, public accommodations, employment, education and credit facilities. That’s it, according to the law.
10.1-4 and 10.1-5 are merely definitions and by themselves do not define the commission’s powers. The relevant sections of 10.1-7(a) is as follows:
Sec. 10.1-7. Functions and powers of the commission.
(a) Functions. The function of the commission and its staff, acting at the general or specific direction of the commission, shall be to eliminate unlawful discrimination in housing, public accommodations, employment, education, and credit facilities in Prince William County by:
(5) Making studies and issuing reports on the condition of human rights in the county; and
(6) Advising the board of supervisors on matters relating to human rights issues as they pertain to the health, safety and general welfare of persons protected by this chapter.
The arguement that these sections don’t apply as the resolution is aimed at an unprotected class is facile as the arguement can be made that the implementation MAY have an unintended or adverse impact on a protected class. The language tasks them with dealing with actual instances of unlawful discrimination but doesn’t appear to constrain them to merely that function. Thus, the commission could arguably look at any number of concerns and judging from several comments on this site regarding brown skin, loud mariachi music, and spanish language issues, probably justify their actions.
Anon,
You are wrong. The HRC is only empowered to study the “application” of laws or ordinances which have caused discrimination, not those which MAY lead to discrimination. Also, the comments of some on this or any blog are not a justification. The only justification is if someone is actually harmed by the resolution, by an agent of the County government. Period.
Wow Greg, looks like this blog has the power of all the illegal alien organizations combined…a few comments on this blog are the reason for the investigation!
Anonymous re: 2:16 post
What you are stating here, if I read it correctly, is that because people are posting remarks on a public blog that might not be favorable to hispanics, the HRC of Pr. Wm County should be holding hearings?
This sounds a little too much like the ‘thought police’ to me. I post here, quite a bit, as a matter of fact. However, I am not a member of HSM. A public blog, is…well…public. I do not believe HSM can be held accountable for the contributions of those who post here.
The conundrum seems to be that the BOS created the HRC. Now the HRC is investigating the actions of the BOS.
This situation is sounding more and more like the fox guarding the hen house.
Dolph,
I think you read Anon’s comments perfectly. I think his or her logic goes a little like this:
Some people are racist, therefore;
Some people in PWC are racist, therefore;
Some of the PWC PD and PWC GOV employees are racist, therefore;
The application of the ordinance will be racist, and the HRC has grounds to preemptively assume that there will be complaints, and therefore;
The HRC must hold hearings.
Typical, raise a cogent point regarding the powers of the commission and the peanut gallery resorts to its usual low level of response. I’ll try to explain once more for those who believe you guys have a clue about the topic and so as not to be misunderstood, I will try to keep this as monosyllabic as possible for Batson. 1. The commission clearly has the power to “public hearings or otherwise” for the purpose of “making studies and issuing reports on the condition of human rights in the county” and/or “advising the board of supervisors on matters relating to human rights issues”. 2. I don’t like it any more than you but I’m not willing to file an injunction that would be thrown on both its lack of merit and lack of standing. 3. My comment regarding other comments here was tongue in cheek, guess some of you are humorless or require a more base joke. 4. Batson, AWC & Dolph, none of you have criticized my post on its merits, rather you all resort to your usual tactics, guess you just can’t take being wrong. Speaks quite a bit to your place or lack thereof in society.
Just who are you, Anon, Craig Gerhardt?
Actually, I can’t stand him, nor he me.
“Batson, AWC & Dolph, none of you have criticized my post on its merits, rather you all resort to your usual tactics, guess you just can’t take being wrong. Speaks quite a bit to your place or lack thereof in society.”
I don’t know ANONYMOUS, I have no problem posting under my own name…what’s YOUR problem and what is it that YOU have to hide.
Isn’t that curious, AWC sounding like JY, so, still no substantive critique?
“Speaks quite a bit to your place or lack thereof in society”
I would normally attribute a comment like this, to James Young. But to his credit, James always posts his name, as far as I know.
And I was commenting on the merits of you argument. Since your arguments are without merit, they rate a sarcastic response. I think Greg was pretty clear in his complaint:
The HRC does not have the authority to conduct hearings on its own, unless requested to do so by the PWC government, or at the request of an actual complaintant. This complaint must be filed according to a clearly defined process. Hearings are “PUBLIC” and must follow the same requirements for public notice as any “PUBLIC” hearing held by a PWC entity. Greg has requested:
HRC demonstrate by what authority they are holding the hearings.
HRC demonstrate that they have an actual complaintant, wronged in the APPLICATION OF THE LAW, OR,
that HRC demonstrate that they are holding these hearings at the request of someone from the PWC GOV who has the authority to request them. Mexicanos Sin Fronteras does not meet either of these criteria.
HRC gave adequate public notice, of a PUBLIC HEARING! Telling a reporter doesn’t fulfill this requirement.
It is contingent upon the HRC to prove that they are following the law, and not for Greg to have to prove that they aren’t.
There, simple enough for YOU ANONYMOUS?
Why aren’t we simply just asking a supervisor(s) what the situation is? If this is unsanctioned then the state police need to be brought in ASAP and those responsible need to be arrested for embezzlement of tax revenue and conspiracy charges. I honestly don’t see why someone hasn’t contacted the BOCS since apparently the HRC works at their behest. It would seem to me that the BOCS is very aware of what is going on here and have either A) sanctioned it or B) are incompetent and/or impotent. Am I missing something here?
Simple, but still incorrect. It would probably help if you understood the hierarchical structure of the ordinance, something you apparently do not. As I stated before, I am not in favor of the “hearings” (in truth they would probably assert that they are “finding conferences or other investigative forums”) but understand the probability that they have the legal authority to conduct them.
One last thing to consider, as with most issues that involve potentially objectional ordinances or implementations, it is best if going to court if you can demonstrate that the process was vetted to the greatest degree possible. The commission can write a report and the Board do with it what it pleases, that a report exists may prove crucial in a determination regarding any claim that the Board’s actions were arbitrary or capricious.
“Am I missing something here?”
Yes. The BCOS are elected. The Staff are hired. The HRC is appointed. It looks like the HRC is either moving forward on its own, at the request of a special interest group, or at the behest of someone on the County Staff. HSM is trying to determine which, and has filed a FOIA. As we have seen in other engagements, sometimes County and City Staffs resist the will of the electeds. Othertimes, appointed boards and commissions overstep their authority. As far as we can tell, the BCOS was not notified by the HRC that they planned to conduct hearings, nor did it direct the County Exec to request that hearings be held. The HRC, it appears, did not follow the rules regarding public hearings. Greg, and HSM will get to the bottom of this.
As to bringing in the State Police, as you have suggested, I am not sure that this could be defined as a criminal matter. I don’t think anyone will go to jail over this. However, if determined that a County employee was acting to undermine the will of the BCOS, they could be disciplined. If it’s determined that the HRC has acted improperly, they could be disbanded and reconstituted. Either way, their rulings on something like this, are non-binding.
Oh, this is rich.
The Board of County Supervisors is an elected body which passes legislation. Their decisions are entirely arbitrary and capricious almost by definition.
You are confusing the legislative process with an administrative or judicial process where “arbitrary and capricious” decisions are wrong.
Arbitrary: subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one’s discretion.
Capricious: Characterized by or subject to whim; impulsive and unpredictable.
Sure sounds like the way legislative bodies consistently behave to me.
Greg,
Sometimes you truly are an idiot. If your supposition were true then no board actions could be reasonably challenged. One need look no further than LoCo for impact of hastily implemented ordinance changes. Regardless where you stand on the issue, the downzoning flap that ended up with the ordinance being struck down by the courts came largely as a result of the Board not crossing all its “t”s and dotting all its “i”s. All I’m saying is that additional consideration by a review board lends credibility to any assertion that a particular ordinance was thoroughly considered. The latitude lies inwhat the Board does with information it considers, not with the process.
BTW, Mr. Thomas, as the commission has the authority to hold forums other than “public hearings” (and doesn’t appear to have any notification requirements), I wouldn’t hang my hat on the legal requirements attendant to a public hearing. (See earlier post about “overstating your case”)
One last thing before I leave the BVBL sandbox, I usually post as “Mom” but at Greg has chosen to adjust the system such that it only accepts comments from me as anonymous, so be it. Nevertheless, Greg seems to know which ones come from me as he changed my initial posting to Mom after it first posted and has subsequently chosen to change it back to anonymous. I’ll leave you to question why.
“One last thing before I leave the BVBL sandbox, I usually post as “Mom” but at Greg has chosen to adjust the system such that it only accepts comments from me as anonymous, so be it.”
That explains a lot!
anonymous (the snide one)
From my lowly place in society over in Sudley, I will clarify:
Your post is without merit, thus my comments.
Clear enough now?
Dolph
Anonymous AKA MOM said on 3 Aug 2007 at 5:10 pm
‘All I’m saying is that additional consideration by a review board lends credibility to any assertion that a particular ordinance was thoroughly considered.’
Are you kidding?
You must have missed the list of groups that were scheduled to speak before th HRC. Here it is. How is it that a group of speakers who are all against this resolution going to help the HRC come to a credible recommendation? I don’t think they can. OOPPS, There are three out of 15 that are for this resolution. So I guess that makes it okay.
Puerto Rican Legal Education and Defense Fund
Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund (MALDEF)
ACLU
NAACP
Virginia Muslim Action Committee
Washington Lawyers Conference
Central American Resource Center
Help Save Manassas
Virginia Council on Human Rights
Council on American Islamic Relations
Virginia Human Rights Commission
Muslim Association of Virginia
FAIR
Woodbridge Workers Committee
Another oopps. Add Immigration Reform Law Institute to the list. That makes the 15th group and the third for the resolution. BTW- I had to insist to the commission that IRLI be heard from, since they stated they didn’t feel the need too.