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Not This Diversity
By Greg L | 9 August 2007 | Illegal Aliens, Crime | 175 Comments
Does this sound at all familiar? An illegal alien has apparently charged with two felonies for taking nude pictures of his thirteen year old “girlfriend”.
From Bearing Drift:
According to this Virginian-Pilot story, 19-year old Carlos Ramos of Chesapeake was arrested when film he was getting developed had nude photos of a 13-year old girl, whom he said was his girlfriend. Police discovered he was in the country illegally.
This isn’t a case of illegal aliens doing to job no Americans want to do. This is illegal aliens victimizing children in a way no American would tolerate. From the 15 year old girl in Manassas Park that I reported on earlier, to the fourteen year old missing girl who was recovered in the bedroom of an illegal alien in Woodbridge, this epidemic of child abuse at the hands of illegal aliens has got to stop.
The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.
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Oh no! Three cases! It’s an epidemic!!!!!!!! Good thing white Americans don’t ever abuse kids!
More racist scaremongering. Typical of this site.
I believe Greg’s and our point is that if any crime is committed by an illegal alien, it is one crime too many. Illegals should not be here, so any crimes they commit while they are here are crimes that would have been prevented had our police and politicians done their jobs and dealt with them sooner.
We already have enough perverts and scumbags born and bred in the USA and we certainly don’t need any more from other countries that are here uninvited. Once again, you miss the point…
Greg didn’t talk about any race in particular. So how is he racist?
Anonymous
This just in: a one Jose Carrasco was just arrested for killing the three black students execution style in New Jersey.
It will be interesting to know if this fellow is here legally or not. More importantlly, if he is guilty of this homicide, it will be interesting to know why he was brutally killed three college students who represented the best in youth and future promise.
I guess if he is here illegally and we had not let him in, it would have prevented the deaths of these three students and the almost fatal wounding of the fourth. It would be interesting to see if these murders were the result of a perceived slight.
park’d
You nail it! I hope you’re not cycling in this heat.
corr
NAILED it.
Because you’re all using “illegal” as a stand-in for “Hispanic.” Yes, I know you’ll deny it, but it’s true. We saw it last week when he posted a scaremongering article about someone with a Hispanic name pulling an identity theft scam, and suggested (although the article never said) that they were illegal. All that mattered was the Hispanic surname. We see it in a thread a couple links down where Rick Bentley extrapolates from “a majority of Manassas Park residents are Latino” to “40-50% of PWC is illegal.”
When nearly every single article on here highlights any misdeed by a Hispanic, illegal or not, that shows the inherent racism. I can scan the LE logs and find all kinds of crimes against children perpetrated by all sorts of different people. Happens every day. What’s the point in picking out just the ones done by illegals? The point is obviously to make people fear something. It’s scaremongering. Racist scaremongering.
By the way, the 31 year old, Jose Carranza, has three prior arrests and one pending trial. To me, this proves once again that if you are a repeat offender, you have just given up any Constitutional right you have have and will forever more be waking up inside a jail cell. Since the majority of crimes are from repeat offenders, we really don’t have to worry about increasing our prison space TOO much. Just build them in the desert, if necessary and in a perfect world, those on death row can stay, until execution, in the house of a death row protestor since according to these apologists they are “human too”.
Murderers are beneth the scum of the earth. These two that they have caught, illegal or not, should be tried and executed. The 31 year old turned himself in, so we already know his guilt. And according to news reports: “The sole survivor of Saturday night’s shootings, 19-year-old Natasha Aeriel, provided information from her hospital bed after being shot in the head.”
It’s not uncommon to see in illegal alien Hispanic community younger women with MUCH older men. I’m taking 8-10+ age difference. Even Virginia Health Department published a comic in to explain problems with dating Older men. Police Officers I’ve spoken with say it’s not rampant but it does happen more then you think.
http://www.vahealth.org/teenpregnancyprevention/publications.asp
If your school down that page, you will find a link to publication “before you date an older guy” It doesn’t appear to be accessible online.
No JL
I think it does make a difference if the guy is illegal or not. If he is legal then he is our problem, If he is not, then he should not be our problem. He should be doing his misdeeds in his own country.
The whole point is we don’t need more people committing crimes. We have plenty on our own. And he may as well be german, chinese, lithuanian or whatever. Illegal is illegal.
Ta da! And “fed up,” whom I just completely pwned in another thread by demonstrating he/she has zero math skills, pipes up and proves my point! First of all, the guy’s name is Carranza, not Carrasco. But I guess that doesn’t matter–one Hispanic name is as good as another, right? Anyway, why on earth would you bring his legal/illegal status into it? Do you do this with every crime you hear about on TV?
news report: “A woman was raped today…”
fed up: “It’ll be interesting to see if it was an illegal.”
radio announcer: “Cops gave out 20 DUI tickets at the checkpoint.”
f’d up: “I bet they were illegals.”
magazine story: “OJ is still looking for the real killer.”
f’d up: “I bet he’s an illegal.”
No, you see a Latino and you automatically think “illegal.” It’s clear you don’t like them, and you’re just using their legality as a way to justify your hate.
Thanks for helping prove my point. Wow. Pwned twice in one day. Neat.
Guys in Latin American countries have smaller penises, maybe that ties into them going after young girls. If anyone doubts what I’m saying, get some Brazilian condoms or Mexican condoms and see if they fit the average American.
Anonymous
you seem to want to convince yourself that I do not like latinos. You can convince yourself of this, but you see, i am part of the latino community although indirectly. My father is spanish.
Good enough for you?
Pwned? Are you 12?
Anonymous: No, it is NOT racist at all. If Irish were here illegally, demanding that we speak Irish Gaelic, then on top of being here illegally, demanding services normally provided to taxpayers, etc. THANKED US by committing EVEN MORE CRIMES, Greg would be posting it.
I HIGHLY recommend that you go to your friends in the illegal Hispanic community, tell them to leave this country and come in the proper way, like all of OUR ancestors did, assimilate, and not break our laws, you will find that attitudes will change.
There are a good number of people who are prejudiced against the Hispanic community as a whole BECAUSE the Hispanic community as a whole is seen as pro-illegal immigration. Just like we have not seen the Muslim community IN DROVES assisting Homeland security in our war against terrorism, neither has the Hispanic community as a whole protested against illegal immigration.
All that is NOT to say that there are not patriotric Americans of Middle-Eastern/Hispanic descent. I know quite a few and a good number of Hispanics who are sick and tired of the crowd who keeps crying “racism”. Heck, English First back in the 80s was headed by an Hispanic.
We are against ALL people who break the laws or break them flagerantly. When you see someone in HOV who is by himself in the car speeding, who does not secretly hope that the cops but that guy above the average speeder? It’s the “in your face” attitude that hurts. The homosexual community found this out when people like Luke Sissyfag was leading the protest marches. But when they instead backed off the “in your face” protests they gained a lot of ground. I may never agree with their lifestyle, but I will respect the person who says “Just let me live” over the person who says “I demand you to accept my lifestyle.”
fed up: I understand your frustration and yes, illegal IS illegal. That being said, legally we need to work thru diplomatic channels to get the person back to their own country but, in a case where a person commits murder, I personally do not trust some 3rd world country to send these people back to, I say we punish them our way.
For example, that guy a few years back who was cained (sp) in what was it, Singapore? He NEVER would have received that harsh of a punishment back here, but I FULLY supported them fetting out their punishment because he broke the laws of THAT land he was in.
Hope this makes sense
i agree. this is madness. it’s classic racism.
i like how on this site, people always talk about the cops and their great mission to stop crime and help deport the illegals. i have known quite a few cops in my day, and they make most criminals look like petty shoplifters. i know of one, who while sitting on the deacon board at the local (white) baptist church, was taking homeless junkies out in the woods and firing shots at their feet to get information. just a small undocumented example, among thousands of actual prosecuted cases of police abuse and corruption. i mean, with such a powerful and abusive entity, do you really think they need your (right wing bloggers) help???
i guess you guys might be in the same boat, with racism running rampant among so many precincts.
by the way, yes my middle name is italian. reason enough to hate me. im probably one of those european commie homosexuals running around spreading marxist ideas in this great country.
If you want to blame someone for conflating “illegal” with “Hispanic,” don’t blame BVBL. Blame groups like Mexicanos sin Fronteras. When local jurisdictions say they will not longer tolerate illegal immigration, this group (and others) immediately say, “racists, xenophobe, anti-Hispanic.” They are the ones that are making it a “Hispanic” issue.
AAlexander,
acording to Rick your middle name will tell us that your penis is just a little bigger than Mexicans but not as good as an average American and that you have tendencies to like young girls or maybe boys.
Rick,
I think Rick that guys like you give a bad name to this forum. I don’t think you are supporting your argument with that typew of comment. Then people say logically that all of you are racist.
Anon makes a good point about avoiding even the appearance of anti-Latino rhetoric (and there is writing on this board that sounds anti-Latino rather than anti-illegal).
However, my issue with the anti-Latino rhetoric is more practical than moral.
I believe that the legislative and executive branches have, through their imcompetence, created a substantial problem around illegal immigration. The President tried to find an answer but his bill was shot down by Congress. To me, that means that the issue will be revisited only after the new administration and Congress is sworn in - January 2009.
Meanwhile, local communities like Manassas have started taking case-by-case action on the illegal immigrant issue. These actions are disconnected and have vastly increased the rhetoric around the issue by both sides. Protest marches by adherents to both sides of the issue are common.
Historically, this kind of escalating social issue which will not be addressed by the executive or legislative branch has been adressed by the remaining brach - the courts.
Does anyone on this blog really want to see the Supreme Court make law with another of their precident - setting rulings?
If not, I think it is imperative that the rhetoric be toned down until the next president and congress are in power in early 2009.
I know that’s a long time but that timeframe will pale in comparison to the timeframe of whatever hare-brained ruling the Supreme Court might offer in this situation.
Demand a coherent plan from the national politicians. Demand a statement of position from state and local politicians. But please stop emotionalizing the issue. No more protests.
Stick to facts. Play for the future.
Avoid the generally liberal, always elitist, unelectable (or unelectable) dipsticks on the US Supreme Court.
Mando, actually triple that. Sigh. So now I have to give a language lesson as well as a math lesson? Hard day. As you may have noticed, we’re using the internet to communicate over this forum. Communications media bring with them their own unique set of slang–slang that has evolved to meet the needs of that particular medium. Amongst the military community to “own” someone means that you have achieved dominance over them, as in “owning the enemy.” This usage was popular for decades before being adopted by users of multiplayer video games (”owning one’s opponent”). A classic typographic misspelling of the word (substituting ‘p’ for the ‘o’) was immortalized in WarCraft. Altering the word gave it a unique flavor, customizing it to the electronic world. From there, it made its way to more common internet parlance to denote situations wherein one forum poster gets his ass mightily handed to him by another (cf http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pwn ). English doesn’t supply another short transitive verb superior to this “pwn” for cases such as these. “I pwned you.” Go on, try to replace the predicate in that sentence. You’ll end up making only more cumbersome sentences. Even “own” doesn’t work well, since in the typographic world the distinction between “owning” as “possessing” or “dominating” is often lost. “Pwn” is unambiguous. One might use such a word and not be 12.
As for f’d up, how does being somewhat Hispanic mean you can’t feel hate for other Hispanics? I’m white, I live in the South (technically), but I hate Southerners. Yes, I freely own up to my racism.
@Anonymous (Howie right?)
Uh… I know what “pwned” means but I generally don’t hear it used by adults. I guess the WarCraft forums are slow today.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/sr12.cfm
This is a major reason why we don’t like illegal immigration!
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/11/1103_031104_marijuana.html
We don’t like this either!
You all are missing the big story here - the police actually identified an illegal alien!
Anonymous-You, sir/madame, are incredulous!
If most illegals are not hispanic, why does President Bush only talk about illegal immigration issues with Mexico and other majority hispanic population Nations? Sure, there are plenty of illegals in this Country that are not hispanic. But, there is no denying the majority of illegals are hispanic.
Is that being racist?
Lets take a look at the majority of serial killers in America. The vast majority are white males, is it considered racist to point that out?
As much as I hesitate to praise concur with anyone who chooses the pseudonym “White Trash,” I’ve got to hand it to you, you pegged the issue. Our beef should not be with any particular group of illegal aliens, or even with the illegal aliens themselves; it should be with our duly-elected representatives who have allowed this situation to progress to the point where it is a nationwide problem. In this particular area (PWC), all of your ire, frustration, resentment, hatred, and action should be directed to that one ostrich-like individual who’s been collecting a Congressman’s salary for close to 30 years now - Frank Wolf. He should be tarred and feathered and escorted down I-66 straddling a rail. He’s done absolutely nothing to address this issue, even in the face of the hue and cry that’s gone up lately. COME ON FRANK, WHERE ARE YOU ON THIS ISSUE?
Anonymous-
It is a KNOWN fact that the illegal population is mostly Hispanic, from Mexico. Especially in this area. Since we don’t know who is LEGAL or ILLEGAL we have a tendency to question their status. If the majority of illegals were Asian or German or any other group of people, we would constantly be questioning their legal status.
We don’t make up the population figures we read them and then we are left to presume their legal status.
You have it backwards - it would be racist to assume that a person is a serial killer based on the fact that they are white.
It would also be racist to assume a person is an illegal immigrant based on the fact that they are hispanic.
I just noticed an ad under the money section on msn homepage for a mortgage with NO SS# REQUIRED from Lending Tree. NICE! check it out:
http://www.msn.com/defaultb.aspx
Had to Say, are you serious?
You wrote: “It is a KNOWN fact that the illegal population is mostly Hispanic, from Mexico. Especially in this area.”
You really believe that most illegal aliens here in “this area”–Northern Virginia or the Washington Metro region–are from Mexico?
The mind boggles.
White Trash “The President tried to find an answer but his bill was shot down by Congress.”
Are you kidding? He tried to ram amnesty to illegals down American citizens throats and called it immigration reform.
Enforcing our existing laws is what the American people want. We want illegals to go back to their countries and apply for legal status just like everyone else.
Advocator:
I always thought it was OK to make fun of yourself - just not others.
Anyway - Wolf gotta go. You sure have that right.
Leila-
Yes I am serious.
There is a handwritten sign posted in the median along 123 in Vienna advertising house cleaning services. It goes something like this:
Small house - $ us. 69.00
Medium house - $ us. 89.00
Large house - $ us. 119.00
What other currency do we use besides ‘us.’? Ever paid anyone using francs, dinars, pesos, etc.?
Leila- Have you done ANY research on this issue? I have and guess what? Research shows that most illegals in this country are from MEXICO.
My comment was intended as a non sequitor observation. If you want to paint me as a racist with it have at it. But the observation is based on fact and has some insight.
Had to say
Where are all the salvadorans?
Chirilagua city?
Oh Rick! It doesn’t matter! Think about it. Size of Penis and Child Abuse? Do all pedophiles have the same problem? Maybe all those priests that we see abusing kids are not your average american down there.
I am not calling you racist, just ignorant(which I think is worse than being racist).
plug in your info. and these are just the KNOWN offenders
http://www.familywatchdog.us/
It’s far off topic, so I’m not going to argue anything about it here. I don’t think Latinos are predisposed to be molesters, though some born elsewhere do go after younger girls than our laws allow, and run afoul of the law.
http://www.familywatchdog.us/ShowMap.asp this is the nice area of MP and the Sudley area
Had to Say, I am fully aware that a majority of the population as a whole are from Mexico. I guess I was confused by your “Especially in this area” comment that followed.
“It is a KNOWN fact that the illegal population is mostly Hispanic, from Mexico. Especially in this area.”
IIf you read that, it makes it appear that you think most of the Latinos here are Mexican.
There are more immigrants from El Salvadore than from Mexico in Prince William County. Contrary to popular belief, and much as I hate to deny it, MY region is not the center of the universe.
Some interesting facts that might surprise some people around here:
1. There are well over 50,000 undocumented Irish in this country, and the irish are one of the most outspoken groups in favor of comprehensive immigration reform in the country. Actively advocating for legalization and lobbying Congress almost weekly. Check out the Irish Lobby for Immigration Reform.
2. 20% of the Korean population is here illegally.
Don’t bash the Latinos so much…it completely dilutes your argument
I do think it’s unforgivable that when an illegal alien is a molester, sanctuary city policies sometimes make it easy for them to commit a crime and then change their fake ID and elude capture.
The stock market is tanking again today. Huge sell off. Sub prime lending woes going global according to the stock market analyst gurus. Biggest bank in France froze 3 funds with exposure to US sub prime mortgages.
100 plus foreclosures a month in Prince William. It sort of makes you wonder where all this is going.
Well one thing I know is many of the aliens flooded in 2 - 3 years ago and took out those balloon loans which are starting to bite their ass. They paid top dollar on the houses - they’re worth 50-100K less than they were 2 years ago where I live - and can’t afford the ballooned mortgage payments. Aye caramba! Lots of for sale signs up where I live.
Gurduloo,
The media does not have a problem reporting the majority of serial killers are white. Recall the coverage of the two snipers back in 2002. Yet, they don’t want to stereotype illegals.
Also, since the favorite line of amnesty and open border supporters is ” these people are only here to do jobs Americans do not want to do, bla bla bla. I suppose even one additional crime committed is one too many. Or, do the supporters of illegals stereotype?
Incidents like these are indicative of a problem that is new to this illegal immigrant wave. In the past, illegal immigrants just crossed on their own and tried to blend in. Now, with better enforcement in urban areas, illegal aliens are crossing in remote areas. This requires more assistance. Enter the gangs. Always willing to provide the wrong service at the right price. However, the illegal aliens are not stupid. After all, would you hand over your wife and kids to MS-13 to deliver them to Woodbridge? Heck no! Your wife would end up a prostitute in Chicago and your kids would be sold. So they come alone. The result is a group of illegal aliens that is diproportionately male and unattached. More vice crimes than ever and more other crime too. Brothels in Woodbridge, 240 arrests per month, etc., etc.
This is just to say that the problem requires new legislation more than people are willing to admit. I can’t believe that people are having to wait 10 years to get in while gangs import thugs.
Give us better ID requirements and better ways to check ID’s, give us better border patrols and easy ways for employers to check legal residency. Give us stiff penalties for those who STILL won’t comply, give me criminal background checks on potential immigrants. Then give me more legal immigrants than the pitiful 0.3% of the population we let in now (tie it to our unemployment rate for all I care) and end discrimination based on national origin.
If we do that, we will be surprised how fast the current mess can be fixed without getting heavy-handed (which is expensive and risks a political backlash).
COM-
I’m not saying it’s racist to say that most serial killer are white. I’m saying the reverse is racist - to assume someone is a serial killer based on the fact that they’re white.
No one is saying that it’s wrong or racist to state that the majority of illegal aliens are hispanic. What’s wrong is to assume that someone is an illegal alien just because they’re hispanic.
The majority of child molesters in the United States are white males. That is the typical profile. Just like serial killers and, um, conservative Republicans. That would, however, be a false correlation.
Lyle, I would definitely agree with you on increasing legal immigration rates. The US had virtually open immigration until 1924, with the exception of such things as the Chinese exclusion laws. That sort of idea is being talked about again by academics and others, but obviously is considered too radical by most people even if an Ellis Island screening situation were set up. The waiting periods now have become ridiculous.
That said, I am wondering exactly what you mean in relation to the ID checking. Do you just mean in the workplace? Or do you mean to institute a national ID for all Americans that can be checked without probable cause at any time on the street. I would imagine that would likely mean many citizens and legal residents being checked over and over because of appearance or language. Or do you just mean employers?
Different cultures have different perspectives on social issues.
For example, from Wikipedia:
[edit] Local laws
[edit] Federal District of Mexico City
The age of consent in the Federal District of Mexico City is 12, and the overall criminal legislation of Mexico’s capital is close to that of the federal law regarding this subject, although tougher in some aspects – higher penalties and broader definitions.
Now, everybody in the US has to obey US law. However, I believe it is fair to think that people immigrated from countires where the age of consent is relatively young may have a different initial thought about what seems right and what seems wrong. And those people may be more pre-disposed to break US law in areas where their local mores were so different.
However, lest this be see as racial:
The age of consent in Germany is 14, as long as a person over the age of 21 does not exploit the 14-16 year-old victim’s lack of capacity for sexual self-determination.
Alternately:
The age of consent in Turkey is the age of majority (set at 18), as specified by the 2004 Turkish Penal Code Art. 103 & 104.
And:
There is no unfettered age of consent in Virginia according to state Codes. The effective age of consent is 18 with an ostensible close in age exception of 15 for those under 18. However the legislation is not clear cut …
So, in the case of propensity to engage in inappropriate relations with a younger person it may be true to say that propensity is more pronounced among Mexicans or Germans than Turks.
However, it would also be true to say that Mexico, Germany and Turkey have clear rules within their borders on this matter while the Commonwealth of Virginia remains confused.
“The majority of child molesters in the United States are white males.”
That’s just who gets caught. Some communities keep their mouths shut tight about abuse. And in some communities and ethnicities, grown men with 13 and 14 year old girls is not considered abusive. It’s manly. So if you’re taught that it’s manly and it’s expected, there is nothing to report.
Mando: “Uh… I know what “pwned” means but I generally don’t hear it used by adults. I guess the WarCraft forums are slow today.”
Man that had me laughing so hard I almost spit!
To coin another phrase directed to Anonymous that we all said when we were 12: Ohh burn!!!
Anyone else having problems getting to the site today? It has been down for almost 2 hours today for me.
This seems to be happening all over; for example:
“Attempted rape led to teen’s death, prosecutors say”
http://www.komotv.com/news/9023112.html
OREGON CITY, Ore. - A 15-year-old Texas girl found strangled in a Milwaukie apartment last month was killed during the course of an attempted rape, prosecutors said Tuesday.
Cousins Alejandro Emeterio “Alex” Rivera-Gamboa, 24, and 23-year-old Gilberto Javier Arellano-Gamboa have both been charged with aggravated murder in the death of Dani “D.J.” Countryman of Kaufman, Texas.
…
…
There is also an immigration hold on the pair. Their immigration status was unclear Tuesday.
This is another reason for illegals not to be in this country; because they are not responsible enough to read and adhere to our laws. If they went through the legal channels for entry into this country then they would be forced to learn about our laws and our history. Since they just waltz across the border and give the ole’ F YOU to us and our laws, they are never aware of the cultural no-no’s here. It’s like that in many Asian countries as well where older men have very young play things on the side. No-can-do here in the states.
“However, it would also be true to say that Mexico, Germany and Turkey have clear rules within their borders on this matter while the Commonwealth of Virginia remains confused”
That’s not actually true. Virginia has them all beat! Any sex between two people who are not married to each other is illegal. That’s why we don’t need an age of consent.
18.2-344. Fornication.
Any person, not being married, who voluntarily shall have sexual intercourse with any other person, shall be guilty of fornication, punishable as a Class 4 misdemeanor
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-344
Anon, looking at the DOJ statistics percentage-wise and the profiles developed of child molesters, particularly classic pedophiles, I would venture to say white males would still be the majority. And of course there are lots of white males who are also not caught.
Leila said on 9 Aug 2007 at 3:52 pm:
The majority of child molesters in the United States are white males. That is the typical profile. Just like serial killers and, um, conservative Republicans. That would, however, be a false correlation.
Have you actually checked out the sex offender registry? There is no classification for Hispanic. Only black, white or pacific islander/asian. Hispanics are considered white or unknown. So before you say the majority of offenders are white go see what is actually on the registry.
If the illegal alien apologists are interested in some facts on lawlessness among that community, particularly against children, perhaps they might have the courage to follow these links:
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html
http://www.ice.gov/doclib/pi/investigations/wanted/mostwanted.pdf
There are hundreds, even thousands more where these links came from…this is just a small sampling. Keep telling yourselves that we don’t have a problem here, and pray that none of you are ever faced with the reality.
PW county is 50% Mexican, 47% Salvadoran, and 3% other hispanic.
I love it. No one can give us an official count on how many illegal immigrants are in the area but we do know that 50% are Mexican, 47% Salvadoran, and 3% are other hispanic. Now what’s wrong with this picture?
White Trash, Age of consent, age of marriage, and statutory rape laws in the United States are often very confused. So Virginia is not alone. The situation has improved slightly from the past when there was a clear sexist bias in age of consent/statutory rape laws in which males, even if minor themselves, might be prosecuted for being, consensually, with an underage female.
Virginia, like many states, has no minimum age for marriage with parental consent if the girl is pregnant. Some states don’t even require parental consent if the underage girl is pregnant. Which in effect means that someone who might otherwise be prosecuted for having consensual sex with a 13 year old could avoid that if the judge specifies marriage. So the state is more interested in having the sex occur under the umbrella of marriage than banning it all together. Many if not all states also have a lower age for marriage (with parental agreement) even if the girl is not pregnant than they have for the age of consent, which makes no sense at all. IF minor adolescents having sex is a problem, the problem isn’t cancelled by marriage.
Jailbait: The Politics of Statutory Rape Laws in the United States is a book with a great history of such anomalies.
True pedophilia, as in a dedicated sexual attraction to prepubescent children, is one thing, and intolerable. But I also think it is kind of ludicrous to prosecute an 18 year old for sex with a 15 year old, or to call him or her a child molester, yet that is what the law allows. I guess I would draw the age of consensual sex at 15 or maybe 14 (firmly after puberty for the vast majority of people) like the Germans. Barring that, I would alter the marriage laws to reflect the age of consent laws. America is really kind of anomalous in our 18 *general* age of consent law in terms of our counterparts. Almost everywhere I can see in Europe has it 16 or younger. El Salvador has 16.
But then I also think the United States is criminal in allowing 18-20 year old people to vote, marry, and kill and die for their country in Iraq without allowing them to have a drink.
Perhaps the illegal alien apologists (and please note, I am referencing illegal aliens of all nationalities) who believe that we don’t have a problem as a consequence of this invasion might have the courage to take a look at the following links:
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html
http://www.ice.gov/doclib/pi/investigations/wanted/mostwanted.pdf
These are only two links among hundreds, even thousands, which tell a totally different story from the one you seem to believe. I would suggest that those who believe that there is no threat here pray that they or their loved ones never come face-to-face with the reality
Leila, do you have a daughter? I suppose then it would be just fine with you if, as a young teen, she does anything that she pleases, regardless of any future consequences. She should be able to take dangerous drugs, be enticed by a cult, run with gangs, go into prostitution after school and on weekends to earn extra money…or become enthralled by an older man and enter into a sexual relationship that would lead, only God knows where. Perhaps you, yourself, are living in the wrong culture.
Leila:
I am with you on the drinking age issue. Beyind the illogic my kids tell me that virtually everyone has a fake ID and that the bars don’t really care as long as you show them something that looks close to a driver’s license. Of course, my kids insist that they don’t have fake IDs. Yeah. At least I’ve never caught them. Not yet.
My points on the age of consent were probably a bit dazed. I would not be surprised to hear that a recent immigrant from Mexico is taking nude photographs of his 13 year old “girlfriend”. I would not be surprised because, in Mexico, that would be legal. He is probably not a pedophile, just raised in a different culture. Of course, he should be arrested and prosecuted here. However, if you told me that a 19 year old Turkish immigrant had nude pictures of his 13 year old girlfriend I’d be very surprised. Therefore, ascribing a propensity for violating age of consent laws to recent immigrants from Mexico (or Germany) would not, in my opinion, be racist thinking. However, ascribing a propensity for violating age of consent laws to recent Turkish immigtrants would, in my opinion, be racist thinking.
In many ways this whole issue with Mr. Ramos makes a good point for the importance of enforcing immigration laws. Since we know (in this case) that the laws of different countries differ significantly from the laws in the US there needs to be a way to educate immigrants on our laws (vs. the laws in their home countries). If an illegal immigrant sneaks into the US and has to live “under cover” how would he/she know the US laws? Only by the coincidence of someone telling them the laws. Therefore, you get a disproportionate propensity for illegal aliens from Mexico (or Germany) to violate age of consent laws. I believe that is a valid comment without any overt or covert racist thinking.
AWCheney, I am not sure where in my post you got the impression that I would approve of a young teen taking dangerous drugs, joining cults or gangs, becoming a prostitut eto earn extra money, or being enticed into a destructive relationship with an older man. I would not want to see that happen to an 18 year old girl either, or anyone else. I really don’t see a difference between the tragedy of it happening to a girl of 15 or 18 or 25.
But perhaps you can tell me how anything in that list, except perhaps the last, has a direct causal relationship to existing sexual age of consent laws unless you think that every teenage girl who has sex at 15, usually with another minor, ends up taking dangerous drugs, joining a gang or cult, etc. Do you somehow suppose that as soon as a girl turns 18, the laws that had been holding her back from giving legal consent to sex move her directly into the path of inequity and criminal behavior?
Drugs and criminal gangs are illegal, period, they are unaffected by sexual consent laws. Anyone can run away to join a cult, unfortunately, but as a runaway under 18, if found, the cult would be legally bound to return the person, so it is actually worse if your daughter had just turned 18 and wanted to join a cult. I did not suggest an abolition of legal minority in any case.
As for sex, if you are relying on consent laws to stop your daughter or her friends from having sex before they are 18 years old, you will be sorely disappointed. I don’t have a teenage daughter, but I was a female teenager and frankly the range of behaviors I saw around me in the very small town I grew up in had nothing to do with the statutory rape laws, except to make the joke about jailbait and “15 will get you 20.”
People acted or didn’t act stupidly in relation to sex, drugs, drinking, cults, etc. based on their parents and upbringings, their sense of a future, their individual inclinations, their surroundings, etc. etc. Please tell me the last time the fact that it is illegal for teens to drink stopped a teen from taking a drink if that is what the teen wanted to do. Sex is even easier considering you don’t have to make or have made an illicit purchase. As I mentioned, most of our counterparts in the advanced industrial world do not have a sexual consent age of 18 (and remember that is just for unmarried sexual consent, not married). They have lower ages, 14-16. They have the lower ages, yet they often have less of a problem with the maladies you mentioned than here in the United States. White Trash mentioned, for example, in relation to the German law how it can be 14 but with additional protections in relation to older people preying on teens. I look around at our counterparts in Western Europe and know they have these laws, yet somehow don’t see total societal disintegration. I don’t feel strongly about sexual consent laws precisely because they have so little relevance to the decisions that teenagers make. I just think it is interesting how in different historical periods here, we have had wildly different laws that promote certain absurdities, eg. If you are a 17 year old girl in Virginia and sleep with your 18 year old boyfriend, he has committed a crime subject to up to one year in jail and a $2,500 fine. Occasionally such prosecutions happen, usually by vengeful parents. Maybe I am going way out on a liberal limb here, but I don’t really see a 17-18 consensual love affair as rape, yet that is what the law says. I also don’t *necessarily* see it as an abusive relationship if two people are in love and one, male or female, is 18 and the other, male or female, is 15. It depends on the people. I am also curious what you think about the fact that marriage at much younger ages was commonplace in this country until relatively recently and still can happen anytime a parent or judge agrees.
I sympathize with you as a parent trying to protect your daughter, assuming you have one. Short of locking her in her room however, or escorting her every single place she goes, I don’t see how you can do much more than to love her, give her lots of information about the dangers of the world, set a good example yourself so she has no opportunity to see hypocrisy, and then hope for the best.
White Trash, That’s funny what your kids tell you. I never used a false ID as a teenager. I wouldn’t even have known where to get one. I am not saying I never had alcohol as a teen. I just never had it in a bar unless I was outside the US.
But I have often thought that it isn’t illegal aliens who are number one in forged documentation in this country, it is all the under-21 year olds, hundreds of whom I see swaying through Georgetown almost every night where they are carded religiously.
The thing about drinking age vs. Army age does bug me. I read the lists of soldiers killed and have seen many under 21 and I just wonder at a society that thinks someone age 18-20 is too irresponsible to have even a single beer, but is clearly responsible enough to enlist, die, and kill as a soldier.
I think the point is that no citizen should tolerate this type of crime against children regardless of who did it. All citizens should should be outraged daily regarding these offenders. Sadly we just keep paging through the newspapers for the Wal-Mart ads.
The point about illegal aliens is that we are not getting the best of the best from this type of “immigration” from wherever and are likely increasing the criminal element among us.
The money needed for both issues is being funneled to a USA initiated disaster in the Mideast. That money would fund social security for a century, build more jails, fight illegal immigration, address the country’s infrastructure and so much more. However, the current administration would prefer the war because it is a money making operation for some of them.
Again, it’s all about the money and who can grab the most for themselves.
Sad sad situation this country is in…..and I blame everyone currently in office regardless of affiliation. They all look the same to me - even when photographed leaving church.
It’s a little like those who advocate diversity and respect for other cultures…. right up until the point is the odious practice of female circumcision. Either you respect other cultures and their traditions — all of them — or you impose your values. But when you attack such a practice, you logically surrender the authority to attack those who would “impose their values,” or would “legislate morality.”
‘Course, that never stops the far Left from engaging in their typically subjective “principles” of convenience.
Most of us do not see the world in terms of black and white, good and evil. Most of us strive for balance in a complex world.
You can be respectful of other cultures without approving of all of the practices. I can be respectful of women running around without shirts or blouses in some underdeveloped country and at the same time abhore the practice of female circumcision. I would also expect them to cover themselves when they visit my culture.
I truly hate this all or nothing mentality. It is for people who prefer moral programming to thinking for themselves and acquiring their own value system.
Leila
Give me a break. Illegals use not just forged or fake driver licenses, they used fake Social security cards, green cards, birth certificates, Naturalization certificates.
I love this double standard we have for illegal criminals and American criminals. I thought illegals wanted to be treated like everyone else. Yet, the defenders of open borders and illegals will make a thousand excuses for them in an attempt to shield them from personal responsibility of their crimes.
A crime is a crime is a crime regardless if it is committed by an illegal or a non-illegal. They both should face the same punishment.
COM
A crime is a crime is a crime regardless if it is committed by an illegal or a non-illegal. They both should face the same punishment.
Except the illegal alien gets a free trip home.
CitizenofManassas, why don’t you give me a break? I was responding to something White Trash said about how “virtually all” the teens have IDs. There are more than 80 million people under 21 in the United States. So I would guess removing all the actual kids, at least a third of that number are of the age when one acquires a fake id. That number is greater, last time I checked, than 12-20 million illegal aliens.
I was suggesting that perhaps a greater NUMBER of young Americans as individuals have false documents than anyone else and thus are breaking the law in greater numbers as individuals in this regard than anyone else. I wasn’t going into how many different pieces of paper or what kinds or what the overall social impact is. Although I would guess their parents might have an opinion on that. Although considering the Bush daughters were repeat offenders, I guess the rest of the country’s parents should just emulate George and Laura and look the other way.
Leila said…
If an illegal immigrant sneaks into the US and has to live “under cover” how would he/she know the US laws? Only by the coincidence of someone telling them the laws. Therefore, you get a disproportionate propensity for illegal aliens from Mexico (or Germany) to violate age of consent laws. I believe that is a valid comment without any overt or covert racist thinking.
You’re kidding, right? In THIS country IGNORANCE is not an excuse.
So, comparing a kid looking to get drunk with a fake ID is the same as an illegal alien using their fake id to bilk the sytem or even better yet fly a freakin plane into the wtc!!!! GROW UP!
Jimmy, I didn’t say anything you are quoting above. Perhaps you need to read the posts more carefully. Those are White Trash’s words in a response to me.
Two suspects charged with aggravated murder in the killing of a Texas teen admitted they came to the United States illegally.
Police said 15-year-old Dani Countryman was trying to fight off Alejandro Rivera Gamboa and his cousin, 23-year-old cousin Gilberto Javier Rivera Gamboa when they strangled her at a Milwaukie apartment in late July.
Alejandro was taken into custody last Saturday on an outstanding warrant for an unrelated probation violation involving drunk driving. The murder charges were later added.
Gilberto Javier Rivera Gamboa was arrested Monday on aggravated murder charges at the Balboa apartment complex where he lives just a few doors from where Countryman was discovered.
The two also faced an immigration hearing after the murder investigation was complete. According to immigration officials, both of the suspects admitted to entering the country illegally six months ago.
Court records showed Alejandro admitted to stepping on the girl and holding her down and that the two tried to sexually assault her.
As 15-year-old Dani Countryman struggled beneath Gilberto Arellano Gamboa, pinned to the floor with her pants down, he called on his cousin to help subdue the girl. Alejandro Rivera Gamboa responded by stepping on Countryman’s throat until she stopped moving.
That’s how investigators described Countryman’s death in a court document released Tuesday. Evidence outlined in the document included statements by the defendants and a bloody shoe that matched an imprint on Countryman’s chest.
Gilberto Javier “Gabe” Arellano Gamboa, 23, who is also known as Rivera Gamboa, and Alejandro Emeterio “Alex” Rivera Gamboa, 24, were arraigned Tuesday in Clackamas County Circuit Court on charges of aggravated murder. Through a Spanish-speaking interpreter, they acknowledged the charges against them and asked for warmer jail clothes.
Take your racist scaremongering slurs and stick them up your ass
Jimmy, regarding your second post, which actually bears some distant relation to what I said, no such comparison of level of crime was made. I think bringing 9/11 up is truly bizarre, not least because all the hijackers entered legally, but also because the overwhelming majority of ordinary illegal aliens in this country, Latino and otherwise, do not commit any crimes unrelated to their status as illegal immigrants and workers. They commit a far lesser percentage of crime than native born Americans. To place them in the same sentence with Al Qaeda operatives is just cheap rhetoric.
PS: By legally, I don’t mean to suggest they hadn’t altered passports etc. I mean they were checked in and stamped by our officials, unfortunately.
Leila- My apologies. I stand corrected. However, you seem to equate a teenager (who happens to EVERY right to be in the USA) getting drunk or having a cocktail is the same as an illegal alien (who has NO right to be in the USA) committing fraud. Being in this or any other country illegally is tanamount to committing fraud.
Leila-They may have entered legally, but were they all legal on 9/11?
Leila,
You sure are making a lot of assumptions about kids. I never had a fake ID when I was younger, and come to think of it, none of my friends did either. That is not to say we did not drink.
I think you are overselling the number of kids who use fake IDs. Of course you are not concerned with how many fake documents illegals use, because you support them, otherwise you would come down on them just as hard and make assumptions as you did for kids.
Actually, the Hispanic illegal aliens have a very high crime rate due to the fact that they are from the bottom of the barrel. They are the dregs of society that their own country doesn’t want. Their own government encourages them to come here illegally. The illegal aliens (and yes, I can spot them) are what’s called “lumpenproletariat”–ignorant, uneducated, violence prone, etc.
Sorry, sometimes the truth is not pleasant.
but also because the overwhelming majority of ordinary illegal aliens in this country, Latino and otherwise, do not commit any crimes unrelated to their status as illegal immigrants and workers. They commit a far lesser percentage of crime than native born Americans. To place them in the same sentence with Al Qaeda operatives is just cheap rhetoric.
The arabs who perpetrated 9/11 received assistance on getting driver’s licenses from el salvadoran illegal immigrants.
Cheap rhetoric? Tell that to the victim’s family members.
Every crime committed by an illegal is preventable crime. The prevention made more difficult by soulless, scuzzy enablers who defend illegals and make excuse for them.
Lelia,
Why do you defend illegals? Well, gee they only commit certain crimes, so we should live with that and ignore those crimes. The facts, without your stupid rationale, are that 100% of illegals commit crimes, therefore their crime rate is 100%. Again, why do you defend them. And, just what exactly is an ordinary illegal anyway?
Gee, I really thought the MJM wrote fake letters in support of illegals. I don’t mean to sound so mean, but really, how can you justify the criminal acts of illegals to the point of not making them illegal acts, and yet come down on kids? Truly odd.
Jimmy, no I was numerically comparing the two groups, teenagers and illegal aliens, as customers for fake documents. I would note that fake IDs for teens are also fraud and can also involve identity theft. Teens acquire a fake ID (one crime) for the purpose of committing another crime (underage drinking).
I am not stating the above as a Puritan, just as an observer.
Leila-Hence my name…Jimmy Crackkorn and I don’t care about your senseless comparisons. Who gives a rats ass about the numerical statistics of the two groups..one of which is ENTITLED to be here and the other is NOT ENTITLED to be here. Cheese and Rice!!!
Leila- Here’s a link for you.
http://www.michnews.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/268/9978
Jimmy Crackkorn
I thought you were a fan of Training Day…..
Leila,
Who is defending, as in law enforcement, elected officials, civic leaders etc, those teenagers that use fake Ids just so they can get drunk?
That is another difference between those kids who use fake ids and illegals. While the illegals have any number of supporters, I don’t see many folks defending the actions of those kids.
Citizen, where did I come down on kids? I already said I drank illegally when I was young, though I never had a fake ID. Didn’t need to have one. I was either at a party or I was spending time in countries with far more enlightened drinking laws than this one.
To answer your question, I would say an ordinary illegal alien is one who is here to work and send money home and spends most of his/her time doing just that. Those are the ones I see every day and live next to and commute with. They aren’t in gangs, they aren’t doing much of anything except working considering many have multiple jobs. They are breaking the law absolutely, both by being here and by working. Some are breaking regulations further by overcrowding, littering, keeping chickens, or what have you. The things that Manassans talk about a lot. What the *vast majority* are not doing is committed other sorts of crimes, especially not the crimes we call serious, like robbery, rape, murder, kidnapping, drug trafficking etc. I am not saying that no illegal aliens do such things, simply that a vast majority do not.
Your 100% criminality is certainly correct if just by being here they are criminals. But your movement spends a lot of time discussing violent crime committed by a small percentage of illegal aliens that is dwarfed, percentagewise by native born criminality. If you all didn’t constantly try to tar the entire population with the guilt of a small percentage, it wouldn’t be an issue. It gets rehearsed so much by the movement it becomes apocryphal, like that mysterious list of alleged warrant statistics that pops up on every anti-illegal blog but that nobody ever gives a site for and can never explain why it says it comes from the INS in 2006 when the INS stopped existing in 2003.
I accept the fact that you think they are all criminals of the worst kind, by virtue of being illegal alone.
COM-Unfortunately, I don’t understand the reference…Training Day.
Leila said on 9 Aug 2007 at 10:32 pm:
…Your 100% criminality is certainly correct if just by being here they are criminals.
HELLLOOO…it’s not citizenofmanassas’ law it’s the FEDERAL law of the United States of America!
Leilia,
You seem to have more anger for the kids then illegals. The fact is that it is your movement that pushes the line of “just hard working otherwise not breaking the law” that is out of touch and plain wrong. I don’t understand why you are trying to defend their criminal actions? Stop trying to compare illegals to Americans or legal immigrants. Yes, it is fact they are criminals when illegally in the Country, I don’t care how you try to spin it.
A criminal is a criminal, what separates them is the punishment they are eligible for when found guilty of breaking the law(any).
Yes, the focus sometimes does seem to be on the the worse illegal criminal, simply because they should not be here in the first place. Take the two young women who were killed in VA Beach. That illegal should not have been here, and in fact had contact with law enforcement before that accident. To be sure there is a lot of frustration on the part of us who do not support illegals. You saw it up close when the Senate Bill was shot down. People are simply tired of the excuses and the pandering done by those that support illegals.
I don’t care how hard illegals work, what they are doing is breaking the law, and saying to the rest of us F***K You.
Jimmy,
The movie Training Day with Denzel Washington. At one point he calls his partner Jimmy CrackKorn. If you have not seen the movie, you should. It might just be the best acting Washington has done up to this point in his career.
Leila said on 9 Aug 2007 at 10:32 pm:
…It gets rehearsed so much by the movement it becomes apocryphal, like that mysterious list of alleged warrant statistics that pops up on every anti-illegal blog but that nobody ever gives a site for and can never explain why it says it comes from the INS in 2006 when the INS stopped existing in 2003.
Can you please provide some type of supporting documentation to support your claims?
COM
Thanks. I’ll have to have a look see.
Jimmy, US teens are “entitled” to be here, but they are not, under our laws, entitled” to drink. For some reason you only care about the entitled to be here part so the fact that they commit fraud to commit another crime is irrelevant to you.
Illegal aliens are not entitled to be here. No quarrel with me on that. They break the law to enter here, or if they come legally, they break the law by overstaying a visa. Then they break the law to work. That is what the *majority* of them do. They work, they send money home and support entire families and even villages doing so. For me, even if one thinks that it is a terrible thing to be here illegally, it is hard not to sympathize with people whose lives mainly consist of working, surviving, being hated everywhere, and sending money home. I sympathize with such people whether they are here legally or illegally since many legal resident aliens (as they are known in law) have the same way of life as illegal aliens. Also, in our name, the United States does a lot of things around the world. Some illegal aliens come from places where the US has pretty much made things worse for the poorest of the poor through our foreign policy in recent decades. So there may at times be some poetic justice in all this. Just a thought. But either way, obviously there is a problem if for nothing more than millions of Americans feel there is one. I just hope the solution can show commonsense and humanity.
Fine CitizenofManassas, but then I would say we are all criminals aren’t we? Or at least almost all. There are so many ways to break the law. As someone else pointed out on this blog, is there anyone who fills out all the forms to pay Virginia tax on purchases over the Internet? That is a serious law isn’t it? Withholding money from the state that it is legally entitled to. You know the list of other laws we break every day…so I won’t repeat them.
I really do believe the level of the crime matters. I know, it’s just me.
Leila-Clearly, you are a sympathiser and clearly, I am NOT.
Jimmy Crackkorn said on 9 Aug 2007 at 10:47 pm:
Leila said on 9 Aug 2007 at 10:32 pm:
…It gets rehearsed so much by the movement it becomes apocryphal, like that mysterious list of alleged warrant statistics that pops up on every anti-illegal blog but that nobody ever gives a site for and can never explain why it says it comes from the INS in 2006 when the INS stopped existing in 2003.
Can you please provide some type of supporting documentation to support your claims?
Jimmy, I posted on this before on the blog regarding the list of crime stats you see everywhere labeled INS/FBI from 2006 even though there was no INS then. Where I found discussion of it was on another Virginia political blog called Bacon’s Rebellion. The blog item was about the issue of illegal criminality, the stuff about the unsourced endlessly repeated INS/FBI stats from 2006 was in comments. I had also searched for the source of those stats, so I was interested to find others also can’t find them.
Anyway, go to:
http://baconsrebellion.blogspot.com/2007_07_22_archive.html
Look for the entry that begins:
“More Immigrants, Less Crime?
There’s a flip side to the commentary I posted yesterday, “Good Idea: Deporting Criminal Aliens,” in which I argued that it makes sense to deport illegal aliens convicted of crimes and sitting in Virginia jails — a position I still support, by the way. However, focusing on the criminality of a relatively few illegal aliens does tend to unfairly stigmatize the whole group.
There are many things that can legitimately be said about illegal immigration: It depresses wages for unskilled Americans, and it adds a burden to schools and hospitals. But it does not threaten to swamp Americans in a wave of crime.”
Read it and then the comments.
# Jimmy Crackkorn said on 9 Aug 2007 at 11:11 pm:
Leila-Clearly, you are a sympathiser and clearly, I am NOT.
Um, and? If you wish to turn me into a noun for having sympathy, then I accept the “iser” although it smacks of cold-war rhetoric, or even worse, segregationist rhetoric.
Anyway, about you being NOT (like Enoch). Do you wish an award or something? Give me an address and I will send over an apple pie. I can even put red, white, and blue sprinkles on it, though that offends my aesthetic sense of what an apple pie should look like. I promise it will be a fully legal apple pie.
Leila,
Oh boy here comes the standard line… it is the fault of our Foreign Policy that drives people to come here illegally. You really take the cake. I don’t suppose it has anything to do with the corrupt Governments of these foreign Nations. Or the fact many of these Nations are run by your fellow lefties that stifle any sort of economic growth or freedom. Nope, lets just blame it on America. You really are self loathing.
I work every day to support my family, do you think I should be able to break the law in order to do so? You act as if Americans do not work, and struggle. Why is that?
Again, where do you see law enforcement, elected officials, civic leaders defending those people who break tax laws etc.?
America has immigration laws, it is not just a problem that Millions of Americans have.
Illegal immigration is a wave of crime hitting America. The fact of the matter is that regardless if you want to see it or not(clearly you do not), illegal immigration has been a net negative to the Country.
Re: Those INS/FBI statistics - one specifically says that 75% of those on the most wanted list are illegal aliens
I’ve got no idea where those come from or if they are even legitimate, but I did find something interesting. (I’m not sure how anyone can identify who is illegal since the Feds don’t keep that data, unless one is on the Feds list already.) Who knows what percent, if any (ha!), of these folks are illegal - but there is certainly overwhelming evidence of something …
LA PD Most Wanted -
select a district, any district, from the pull-down menu -
http://www.lapdonline.org/most_wanted
Leila, in Richmond, is rather insulated from the problem we are facing.
Anon, who is in Richmond? You must be speaking about yourself. I am in Northern Virginia. Manassas is between me and Richmond. Where are you?
Anon, who is in Richmond? You must be speaking about yourself. I am in Northern Virginia. Manassas is between me and Richmond
Here is a list of the most wanted criminals from the Washington State Patrol. http://www.wsp.wa.gov/crime/wanted.htm
According to KREM’s Special Report on Criminal Aliens in Washington, Seattle’s DEA office believes 40 of its 62 “Most Wanted” are criminal aliens from or likely to be from Mexico and a few Central American countries. On Washington State Patrol’s “Most Wanted” list, 75 percent of the suspects are known or thought to be from Mexico, or other nations. Law enforcement authorities say some of the most violent criminals at large in Washington State are illegals from Mexico.
COM wrote: Oh boy here comes the standard line… it is the fault of our Foreign Policy that drives people to come here illegally. You really take the cake. I don’t suppose it has anything to do with the corrupt Governments of these foreign Nations. Or the fact many of these Nations are run by your fellow lefties that stifle any sort of economic growth or freedom. Nope, lets just blame it on America. You really are self loathing.
First, foreign policy, as I made clear, is not a primary reason for how I feel about illegal aliens, or the reason I think most illegal aliens come here. Not at all. That is why I used the words poetic justice. I didn’t suggest any causal relationship, I suggested instead a kind of compensation for the past. The language of “drives people” is yours not mine.
Second, I don’t see a lot of Venezuelans here in the US, do you? I do see a lot of Cubans, but they get to be legal no matter what basically, wet foot/dry foot, whatever foot. So I am not quite sure about the leftist gov leads to illegal alien issue. But feel free to elaborate.
In any case, I was thinking mainly of Salvadorans (since they are the largest group of Latinos here in this area) and the war we were a major part of back in the 80s under Reagan as we backed the death squads, and finally its impact on the country. I have no idea how old you are COM, so perhaps you don’t remember the war, Oscar Romero, etc. It was a very major political issue at the time, including right here in this area as I remember from my student days. I don’t think I should go into it because I doubt it would interest you. But to give you at least a hint of how we backed our buddies, consider this as one example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Mozote_massacre
described as the worst atrocity in modern Latin American history.
I have other examples, but I am sure anything the US does anywhere is pretty much irrelevant to you, so there’s no point. I love how the “self-loathing” card gets played by the right. Such fun. ‘Fraid not.
COM, The URL you posted from one Washington State police agency shows a bunch of mug shots of people with Hispanic names (except one) all wanted for vehicular homicide, hit and runs, and other sorts of vehicular crime. There was no mention of legal or illegal status when I clicked on the links under their names. Only ONE person is identified with a nationality, that is the non-Hispanic Canadian.
You go on to write (it appears to be a verbatim lifted quote, although you neither put quote marks around it or attribute it):
“According to KREM’s Special Report on Criminal Aliens in Washington, Seattle’s DEA office believes 40 of its 62 “Most Wanted” are criminal aliens from or likely to be from Mexico and a few Central American countries. On Washington State Patrol’s “Most Wanted” list, 75 percent of the suspects are known or thought to be from Mexico, or other nations. Law enforcement authorities say some of the most violent criminals at large in Washington State are illegals from Mexico.”
This quote was NOT from the Police site of the URL.
I stuck the words “KREM’s Special Report on Criminal Aliens in Washington” in Google and out of the entire Google universe of billions, there was exactly ONE hit:
http://www.freespeechforum.org/Chacon.html
That is where I found the quote, in red, that you pasted. I then tried to find the special report. Googling “Criminal Aliens in Washington” brought me to another anti-immigration site (again the only additional hit besides freespeechforum, so we are up to two out of Google’s billions) and they, the brave folks at www.americanpatrol.com, had a link to a local Spokane TV station called KREM that apparently broadcast a report making those allegations. I saw in KREM’s brief write up about their report where the woman on freespeechforum got her graph. Well she rewrote it from their copy, rearranging a few words and changing some of it. There was a video on the site, but I was unable to get it to work. I will try on another computer tomorrow.
I guess what I am curious about is why, if this is accurate info about these two agencies in Washington, the only source is one local TV special report by a guy named Randy Shaw. Where is the government source or even one other journalistic source. Did you happen to watch the video, or just grab the quote from freespeechforum? If you watched it, can you tell me if they have spokesmen from the DEA and Washington State Patrol and what they said? I guess I am still looking for an actual government source that has the data. The only gov source you supply, with the mug shots, does not. It doesn’t mention anything about legal status except for the Canadian. What this appears to be is the start of another INS/FBI 2006 bit of apocrypha, but I am happy to be proved wrong. I certainly might assume that some of the State Patrol’s most wanted are illegal aliens, but can you point toward a verified gov source for that info?
Thanks.
‘brought me to another anti-immigration site ‘
Nice try slick - but it is anti-ILLEGAL immigration. It probably works on the kos, but it won’t work here.
Anonymous, I wasn’t “trying” anything and I am never “slick.” I posted at 1:37 AM and made an error leaving out that word. My apologies. I usually include it, as people here know, even though I know that there is an overlap between two movements. Or do you not believe that a movement to curtail almost all immigration period to the United States also exists?
Leila,
If you are NOT in Richmond, then you certainly do a fine job of writing verbatim what Richmonder wrote on Bacon’s Rebellion. Perhaps it would serve you well to think for yourself, then.
Says Leila:
“I do see a lot of Cubans, but they get to be legal no matter what basically, wet foot/dry foot, whatever foot.”
Leila, that has got to be the most IGNORANT and UNINFORMED comment I’ve seen in quite a while.
Anon, just because two people notice the same thing about a certain batch of statistics turning up everywhere without a single government URL to back them up doesn’t mean much. I see you all in the anti-illegal immigration movement making identical points all the time. In any case, and quite important, I CITED the Bacon’s Rebellion blog with URL more than once on BVBL for that specific entry. I did so because the entire thing emerged out of a conservative’s rethinking of the illegal aliens/crime issue and I thought it would be interesting for people here to just, for one shining moment, imagine what it would be like to be both conservative and have an open mind.
I found the comments on Bacon’s Rebellion when I was doing my own search for actual, real, citation-based government data on the crime question. So I was actually “thinking for myself” as you so generously advise and, being a Google fiend, I was trying to find information to back up said thoughts when BR popped up on a search.
Sorry the comment on Cubans troubled you. But please blame the Bush Administration that I would imagine you voted for. Or did you go even farther right? Apparently wet foot/dry foot is what the Cuban refugee policy is called. I saw that phrase yesterday in the Post.
In case you don’t read the Post, here is the link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/08/AR2007080802189.html
I then confirmed it by just putting “wet foot” in Google news and came up with many more instances relating to Cuba. For example, the Miami Herald, you know, that paper that really hates Cubans, has a story today that ends:
“Under the U.S. government’s wet foot/dry foot policy, Cuban migrants who make it to American soil are generally allowed to remain in the United States. Those intercepted at sea are generally turned back.”
So please, take it up with your beloved Republicans or with country’s many journalists, not with me. By my use of “whatever foot” I think I was already indicating I thought the terminology bizarre, although the policy is even stranger.
Leila,
Yes, I remember the war in the 80’s, when the lefties and commies were trying to take over Central America. The reason why you have not seen many folks from Venezuela is the issues have not started just yet there. Give it a few years and you will see. There are plenty of Cubans in America, and I would add there would probably be more if there was an easier way for them to get out of another Country run by one of your fellow lefties.
The fact of the matter is the make up of the most wanted by the WS Patrol is that most are immigrants most likely illegal. You don’t have to rely on the Government when the TV station did the report. Stop trying to argue against solid facts.
You can make up every excuse you can think of, but the fact remains illegals do commit crime and they are not just here to do work that Americans do not want to do.
Maybe if traveled a bit around the Country you would see American born teenagers and other Americans working in fast food, hotels and other service related jobs. You are basing your assumption that illegals do jobs Americans do not want on living in this area, and parroting the line from open border supporters. Start thinking for yourself and you might just wake up and realize you are wrong on this issue.
BTW, the suspected killer of the three teens in New Jersey is an illegal. Funny, the Feds did not know about him before today because the “law enforcement in New Jersey did not report him. But, I guess if we use your logic, he must not be illegal since the Feds did not report it.
PS: The Miami Herald piece is a love story btw.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/cuba/story/198876.html
COM, please show me where I said illegal aliens do not commit crime. Thanks for the info on Carranza. I was waiting for when that info one way or another would come out. Peru. Interesting.
You said for most just work…..
So, what is your excuse for Carranza? Any chance you can blame that on America?
Also, I have asked you to cite examples of where law enforcement, elected officials and Civic leaders have endorsed law breaking other then for illegals. I’m still waiting.
In the mean time, since you and your fellow illegal supporters want illegals to be treated the same way as everyone else, why is it then, you want to be able to benefit from their law breaking? Why is it y’all are concerned about family separation when it comes to illegal families(mother or father being sent off to jail or deported, but their children stay here) yet that never seems to be a concern when an American mother or father is sent off to jail.
COM, are you another scattered reader? You write:
“There are plenty of Cubans in America, and I would add there would probably be more if there was an easier way for them to get out of another Country run by one of your fellow lefties.”
after I already said I see a lot of Cubans.
I would like you to answer my questions about the TV station report. You watched it, right?
I’ve traveled around the country and seen Americans doing those jobs yes. I thought this was a blog about here, guess not. I also thought that this area is not unique in characteristics. Guess not again.
In any case, give it a rest with your assumption I don’t know the heartland. I’m from it darlin’, in fact, I am about to leave on a plane to the Midwest in a few hours to visit my hometown, so unless BWI has some free WiFi at the given terminal, I will be off until I arrive in the cornfields. What an East Coast snob you are! Here’s hoping for some WiFi.
Ok. So maybe when I said that Carranza could be an illegal and that this is a real problem yesterday everybody attacked me. So now what do you have to say?
If the laws of this country were respected this would not have happened.
How does a man who is about to go to trial for rape, an illegal alien, just roam the streets. Who is the judge who did not consider the flight risk? Why are we letting people like this go free?
This is the kind of thing that makes me angry. This is the kind of thing that TH and Anon need to think about, before they call people racist, ignorant and other lovely epithets. You are running out of names.
Do you want to explain to me why three people had to die? And do you want to explain to me why the illegal alien who killed them did what he did? I don’t think it was robbery. The truth is that this is the problem that will be created when gangs of illegals roam the street freely.
Enforcing the law is just for cases like this.
I said “most” work and do not commit crimes. I stand by that statement. There are 12-20 million illegal aliens in this country. If you can find anywhere that indicates that most of them are criminals (outside the crimes related to entering and working), please show it to me.
What about “most” is unclear? It is not what you indicated by saying I thought illegal aliens do not commit crimes.
I am concerned about family separations whereever they occur actually.
I don’t have any excuse for Carranza. Is there someone with an excuse for Carranza? We don’t yet know if it was racial, a robbery, or what, but it was evil. Unfortunately for your argument, in this country, the most spectacular killers are almost always native born white men. Do you have an excuse for them? Criminals are individuals for god’s sake, otherwise everyone in a given class would emulate their peers, and they don’t.
I don’t benefit from illegal aliens any more than you do. Perhaps less since I don’t own any property or employ anyone to do anything. I do buy food, I can’t help it.
About law-breaking…well I really have to rush. I have no car and BWI is far away, but I will offer one example and then more later. Civil disobedience during the civil-rights era. Flat out lawbreaking encouraged by political leaders. In the anti-war movement too…..in any case, I really have to dash. I realize none of you Manassans would be without a vehicle, but I am.
You do realize you are excusing law breaking right, by saying other then immigration law they are not breaking any other type of law. Ya, that is a sound judgement.
You seem to want to defend illegals, I don’t need an excuse for why people commit crime, since I think all criminals need to face punishment. But, I suppose if I used your logic, I would say why pick on white males? See how silly that is. Well, maybe you don’t sense it seems to be your major defense.
Nice excuse for leaving…. I guess it is a bit too hot for you in the kitchen. Which is usually the case when some nut job liberal comes on here with faulty thinking, they leave never to be heard from again.
BTW, I own my residence, and I am proud to say I do all of the yard work except for what my wife does, and we also do our own house cleaning. And, no I am not usually without a vehicle, since we have three.
Leila,
Clearly you are not very bright because you just refuted your own lie. First you wrote this:
“I do see a lot of Cubans, but they get to be legal no matter what basically, wet foot/dry foot, whatever foot.”
Then you wrote this:
“Under the U.S. government’s wet foot/dry foot policy, Cuban migrants who make it to American soil are generally allowed to remain in the United States. Those intercepted at sea are generally turned back.”
On the one hand you say that Cubans get to be legal in the USA “no matter what.” Then you cite a source that says that those Cubans make it to the USA are allowed to stay if they land on soil. And those who do not are turned back. You can’t have it both ways. Either every blessed Cuban gets to stay, or some are sent back.
I think the real issue is that you’ve got a problem with Cubans.
From Leila, re: the illegal alien that killed the college kids in New Jersey:
“Peru. Interesting.”
Well, my goodness, it appears that Leila has issues with Peruvians, too.
To regular folks, it is not the least bit interesting that he was from Peru. It is interesting, and horrifying, that he was an illegal alien. Three more kids would be alive if our government did it’s job.
Leila,
No East Coast snob here, in fact, I bet I travel the Country more then you do. And, while this blog is mostly about this area, there is no rule that says we cannot discuss other parts of the Country. Face it, you can’t defend illegal immigration, so you have to attempt to change the course of the argument by putting limits on what can be discussed.
You still can’t provide information on elected officials, law enforcement Civic leaders who openly support law breaking.
Hosting and or attending an anti-war protest is not against the law. Was law enforcement supporting civil unrest in the 50’s. What elected officials were?
How about today? Do any support murderers, rapists etc?
Oh, at least I did not move away from home. You clearly have an issue where you were raised, otherwise why leave it? I suspect more of the self loathing.
Anon-Maybe you’d like to step down from the attack position. Quite possibly Leila’s ‘interesting’ comment was meant to indicate that she had not heard any talk about illegal-peruvians and not because she has a ‘problem’with peruvians.
COM- Here’s one: Hillary Clinton supports her (not-convicted-rapist) husband.
Bob,
You got me.
Why would Leila not hear talk about illegal Peruvians? She’s been reading this blog. This blog isn’t about illegal “mexicans” - it is about illegals, period. That she would find it “interesting” that one was from Peru makes me wonder what HER idea of illegals might be. She already seems to take issue with Cubans being allowed here in the numbers in which they are.
In any case, I don’t think Leila’s got all that much on the ball, so why should we put any stock in what she’s got to say. If she’s an adult, it’s pretty underwhelming that she doesn’t own a home or even a vehicle. Classic underachiever.
Leila,
here is the justification for criminals who are here legally or are citizens:
They are our PROBLEM. The illegals who commit crimes in our country should NOT BE OUR PROBLEM!
Anon and COM,
You are both nit-picking and attempting to bully Leila.
I would like to challenge you both to try to find just one tiny thing you can agree with her on. When people try to find something they believe in common, then you have made some headway into problem solving. If we dont have some sort of detente, then we will forever be at war with someone.
The insults are really inexcusable. Attacking her for not owning a car? Calling her an underachiever? Perhaps she doesn’t need a car. Perhaps she has a disability and can no longer drive. Perhaps she doesn’t want the unnecessary expense of owning a car when public transportation serves her purposes.
If you disagree with her, then use facts, even opinions, to back up your message, not uncivilized vitriol.
HSM is supposedly a bi-partisan group united in a common goal. I sure don’t see it here today.
Leila said in one of her postings above:
I realize none of you Manassans would be without a vehicle, but I am.
====================================
I, personally, view that as a condescending comment.
Anon
We really need to stop with the name calling. Leila may not have much to say that is earthshaking but moderate views are welcome. They are better than bullying and name calling
Dolph,
Exactly what Bob said, she was the one to bring up the car issue first, the one to bring up the fact about home ownership etc.
Why would I agree with someone who clearly, though without saying it, supports illegals? She intent-ally uses wishy washing language in attempt to come across as being neutral on the issue, when in reality that is not the case.
I also do not understand her defense that other then their immigration law breaking, they are law abiding folks.. Hitting head against wall. WTF? Is that the best defense she has for illegals? And you wonder why I can’t agree with her?
I wonder how she views Corporations? Would she overlook law breaking on the part of Corporations because they create jobs and without them our economy would suffer?
COM,
My only point is the rhetoric. I am certainly not going to argue her points with you. I challenged you to find one thing you can agree on…one tiny thing. I am sure it is out there. I am certain you wouldn’t agree with her totally nor would I. She and I agree on that point.
I dont think we can assume we know how people feel. I think your time would be better spent selling her on your ideas and why you feel the way you do than insulting her. I sincerely believe she comes here to exchange ideas, not to vilify people on this site.
Having said that, there are some people who come here and are so rude I dont care if you all throw them to the dogs….but I just do not see Leila as one of those people.
Dolph
Dolph,
I guess I agree with her that illegals are criminals. How is that? She is the one that started to turn nasty, and while I should be able to rise above that, it just boggles my mind how people can defend criminal action, and then attempt to spin that those that are against illegals are the bad guys.
She needs to understand, that the laws we want to be enforced are not our own made up laws, that this is an issue that is important to not just those of us that post here. She needs to understand the Federal Government can and does set the number of legal immigrants permitted into the Country.
COM,
Now if we could just get the feds to enforce their own laws, we could get somewhere. That is what drives me nuts!
Thanks!
Dolph
Dolph,
I feel the same way. As I have posted before, if the Feds did their jobs, the local Governments would not have to do it. But as it stands the Local Government has been forced into doing the job.
We need to go after the illegals, the companies that hire them, the people that support illegals, and we need to tell Mexico and other Countries that send us illegal aliens to do a better job of creating jobs instead of using America as a “babysitter” and a way to avoid real economic change.
The sad part is Mexico finds it easier to allow millions of their Citizens to leave the Country to live and survive, then it is for Mexico to change their corrupt ways.
I should add, the reason why we need to also go after illegals is that not every illegal in the Country works. So, we are not going to take care of the entire problem by just concentrating on going after the companies. I believe certain elected officials and certain people running for elected office focus on the employment side knowing full well not every illegal works, but they do so to appear tough on illegal aliens, when in reality they are not.
I am not really clear where to start, but since I have time and Net now again after my trip, I will at least reply to a couple of bizarre personal attacks. I debated whether to do this, but frankly the accusations were so strange and hateful, it seems necessary.
However please anyone who was not engaged in attacking me, and even those who were, please feel free to ignore this overly long post.
1. I think it is truly odd that COM thinks I stopped posting for any reason other than what I said. I don’t think I have ever displayed fear of any of your “hot kitchens.” Fact is, I was leaving town for the weekend, I had to get to BWI from downtown DC and that takes a while. Missing the plane was not an option and I hate to be last minute at airports. Sometimes it appears that your hatred COM, makes you suspicious of everything a person like me says. That kind of over-complicates rather mundane things. Anyway, I got to BWI, pulled out my lap top, found no free WiFi, just some subscription service called Boingo or something that I wasn’t going to sign up for for just one day, and so didn’t get back on to continue. PS: Anyone who wants to know a secret no-man’s land at National (won’t call it Reagan) that has free WiFi, just ask.
2. COM then suggests something untoward in the fact I don’t live where I was from. She writes: “Oh, at least I did not move away from home. You clearly have an issue where you were raised, otherwise why leave it? I suspect more of the self loathing.”
Huge numbers of people don’t live where they are from. America is known for that isn’t it? I have lived in Arlington for more than 25 years. DC a few years before that (I got to the area in the late 70s). And overseas for some years before that. I still consider my Midwestern hometown my hometown however and have family there whom, glory be, I like to visit. I don’t have any issues at all about where I am from. It was and is a beautiful place that was actually kind of ideal for me since it is a university town that despite its size and un-coastal location cultivates a sense of cosmopolitan tolerance. I just prefer being near or in big cities. I started living in them as a teenager abroad and got used to having them around. I have always regretted not having lived in New York.
3. I am sorry, Bob Sentz, if it sounded condescending about saying Manassans never without a car. I didn’t mean it that way. You absolutely need a car in the far suburbs. You need one in many parts of Arlington, just not my part. I want one in some ways, but I don’t need one. I have shopping nearby and have multiple choices in public transport for work. I never got around to replacing my car because I had no pressing need for one on a day to day basis, so I just rent when I have a reason. I actually love driving (especially cross country) and do find it tedious to have to take public transport late at night a lot when I’m bone tired. But the simple fact of not really requiring a car has just pushed it way down the priority list of something to get around to. It has nothing to do with money. It has to do with inertia. All that said, if tomorrow someone would bring me a working cool old car (I have a weakness for old American cars) that I could park in any street in DC without worrying about it (this is what my previous one was like), I would buy it from you immediately because it would ideally suit my lifestyle. Well, unless I suspected some of you on this list of deciding to “fix” the brakes.
4. I drop large amounts of money on travel and I save a lot for retirement. I guess that makes me un-American since I am well paid, yet I don’t have lots of expensive stuff. Please, put me in jail immediately.
5. An Anon person at 1:03 PM wrote some strange convoluted thing about Cubans prefaced by: “Leila, Clearly you are not very bright because you just refuted your own lie.”
He/she quoted me first, then quoted me saying something that I had cited from a Miami Herald article. In any case, the problem appears to be that Anon didn’t read the Post article I had previously cited discussing Cubans. My apologies for assuming he/she might have.
In the Post article, there was a section about a Cuban official accusing the US of NOT upholding the wet foot/dry foot distinction and allowing Cubans who come by boat, raft, etc. to stay instead of sending them back. The quote from the Miami Herald that I pasted was just as an example to show that wet foot/dry foot is common usage regarding the immigration policy on Cubans since I had been attacked for using those words. The quote stated how that policy is supposed to work. But it was just there to show that I wasn’t making up any of this bizarre feet terminology. I thought using a quote from a paper based in Miami (there were lots of other examples) would help make that point. Apparently I failed miserably, because, as Anon says, I am none too bright and I am a consummate liar. Note to self: be brighter and lie less.
6. I said: “Peru, interesting” because I was in the aforementioned hurry re. BWI. I hadn’t had time to read the new articles on the Newark case (I’m an avid reader of crime stories) and I had been wondering about the nationality of the killer since the point he turned himself in. I was actually grateful when COM supplied the info. I didn’t expect Peruvian. I expected a Latino nationality more predominant in Newark. It has nothing to do with not knowing there are illegal alien Peruvians in the United States or having, as Anon suggests, a problem with Peruvians. Thank you Bob Sentz for realizing that.
Finally and back to true topic. COM, obviously for you the fact that all illegal aliens have broken the law to be and work here is enough to label them all criminals. I can see that is true in a literal sense, but I don’t find it particularly illuminating or helpful in a policy sense. Also, if any lawbreaking makes one a criminal, then I think you would be hardpressed to find someone on this blog who isn’t a criminal. Obviously we make judgments all the time about levels of lawbreaking.
Now you will say, she’s minimizing the seriousness of the act of being an illegal alien. Perhaps I am. I see, *for the most part,* people who are here to work and to send money home. Some of their behavior is objectionable to Manassans and others (overcrowding, littering, keeping chickens etc.). For a small percentage of the 12-20 million, some of their behavior is deeply criminal (eg. MS-13, individual rapists, murderers, etc.). But none of that alters the fact, for me at least, that most of them are breaking immigration law out of economic need alone. In terms of illegal aliens from Latin America, they look around and enter the richest country in the neighborhood. I don’t see that as remarkable. I do see it as sad because they leave their families and often risk their lives to come to a place where they are both hated and exploited by many. (Actually that was true in the Ellis Island era as well.) But given the choice between that and abject poverty, I guess they feel it is worth it. I don’t favor mass deportation. I favor a guest worker program with a path to citizenship. We already have a guest worker program that requires jobs first be offered to Americans. I also think what is happening in the military is a good example, citizenship for service. But unlike many people on this blog, it doesn’t bother me to live around lots of people speaking another language or doing things a different way. It never has.
Well, leila, good for you! This blog continues to get bogged down with rants, arguments and self-explanations ever since the WaPo article and libs thought their “opinions” contributed anything significant here. The regular posters actually address the well-known problems with illegal aliens, and it has been quite productive when we continue to ask pertinent, practical questions that inspire ideas (such as the PWC resolution, political activism, neighborhood watches, contacting local venues and telling them what we know about the MSF, WWC ties to marxist/anarchist groups, etc.). We don’t need to spin wheels, wasting time explaining things to the leilas of the world. Let’s get back on track and spend our energy and resourcefulness on the issues at hand. Stay active, patriots!
Legal2, you are probably right. Ciao.
Leila
The problem is employers do not offer jobs to americans first. I know firsthand of companies that are not promoting people withing their own companies and instead are hiring people who are here illegally or are brought here from countries where their credentials cannot be verified.
Just being humane does not solve the problems of illegal immigration. The US cannot be the receptacle of milions upon millions of people who seek work. We are allowing a permanent underclass to be created. we are allowing a gigantic shift in demographics that will cause unrest and social strife. We will cause an economic imbalance caused by the innumerable people who are using an infrastructure which cannot absorb the numbers and which cannot be upgraded without the necessary funds usually brought in by taxpaying citizens. The economy of a country is defined by the educational level of the workforce. anyone who makes the asinine comment that multilingual people are going to make us more competitive in the global market is missing the point completely. Our workforce will be less competitive, unemployment will become a very big problems and the lack of integration will create tremendous conflict between races and different ethnic minorities. LA has already reached a critical point with gang activity and I cannot imagine what will happen if the illegal immigration issue is not resolved. The illegal immigrant has no interest in becoming legal or obeying the law. They know that once they become legal, an illegal will take their work.
America will have millions of people who will be unemployed if this economy goes south and it is now headed in that direction. What will we do with all these people? It is folly to believe that we can accomodate every needy latino in this continent. And these people do commit crimes, every day, that a citizen or legal resident would never be allowed to get away with.
The point of illegal immigration is to foresee what impact it will have before the consequences are irreversible. anyone who sees the rosy pictures of the poor betrodden illegal immigrant is missing the bigger picture. Optimistic people like you are the ones who are blind to the consequences of irrational unrestrained immigration policy. Please go to Europe, Italy, France, Switzerland and Spain and ask around. You will see that the biggest problems will unbridled immigration is crime, social and political strife, ghettization of ethnic minorities and increase in unemployment for the indigenous population. And the immigrants who are moving into lower eastern europe are for the most part much more educated and have much more similar traditions than the immigrants that we are receiving.
Leili,
Are you saying non urban areas of America cannot be tolerant? And you wonder why I said what I said. You would rather slam your fellow Americans, then criticize the real problem people–illegals. But, I guess that is a liberal for you. That is self loathing for sure. You of course know a large number of people who live in New York admit to wanting to live somewhere else. Why is that?
Why don’t you slam Mexico and other Countries that would rather their Citizens leave, then attempt real economic reforms that will allow their Citizens to prosper rather then leave. I don’t understand liberals in that sense. Y’all would just rather bash the United States, then to point a finger at another Country. Again, another example of self loathing.
Sure, we have plenty of criminals, but again, I do not see elected officials, law enforcement, and Civic leaders standing up and openly supporting law breakers.
If you get a speeding ticket, you are caught in the act, yet paying the fine does not give the right to continue to speed. People who are illegal aliens are in affect breaking the law at all times. You can attempt to spin it your liberal way all you want, but you are in the minority. We tried amnesty in 1986, it failed. Do you like failed policies?
And, for the record, it is not just folks who live in Manassas that are fed up with illegals, you seem to think that is the case. Well, again you are very wrong. All you have to do is look at the defeated Senate Bill. It was a shame and, while I am sure there were plenty of people who called in from Manassas, I doubt it was enough to shut the Senate switchboard down. Some Senators said they had received more phone calls on that one bill then they had ever received. So, clearly there are more people upset with illegals, then those that reside in Manassas.
There are millions of poor people around the World, that is a fact. There is nothing we can do about that. It is unfair because we share a border with a third World Cesspool, that Citizens from that Country, and their Southern neighbors are just able to walk across the border.
Why is it there have millions of people have been able to come here legally over the years, yet there are certain people who stick the finger to that tradition, and us by coming here illegally.
I suppose if we took your point of view, it would be perfectly fine for us to break into the homes of those people who live in Great Falls etc and steal from them. Afterall, they are rich, and most of us our working class folks, so we should do everything in our power in order to improve our lot in life. And, if that means breaking the law in doing so, so be it. Do you really want to live in a Country like that?
Just an observation or two here. Our schools are geared to assume everyone is going to college. Kids who should be in autobody are being groomed for college. Our nation’s schools fall real short on vocational training. State testing reinforces this illogical direction for many students.
Not everyone is college material. We, as a nation, need to insist on more vocational training for high school students and get over this absurd notion that if you don’t go to college you are somehow less of a person.
Perhaps if we would get over our effete snobbery about education and get those kids who could be the backbone of our work force into vocational skills instead of Shakespeare, employers wouldn’t be so quick to hire foreigners over Americans.
Dolph-
Have you considered the possibility that the money the schools are spending on ESOL programs is being taken away from the vocational programs? I can almost assure you that is one reason vocational classes are going to the way side. It cost $3,000 dollars more to educate a non -English speaking student. That money has to come from somewhere. In reality educating illegal alien students that live three to four families in a single family home are depriving our LEGAL children of their rightful education.
Had to Say,
Vocational programs had gone by the wayside long before huge numbers of immigrant families came to this area. There are still a few left but they are almost elective. The college grooming still goes on, for most students. I really do not see any cause and effect here.
Regarding ESOL classes, I guess my question to you would be…what do you propose to do about it? Schools do not have a choice about educating students in their district, legal or illegal.
Lets say, for the sake of argument, that all ESOL classes were done away with. You still have the kids who cannot speak English proficiently there in the school. You still have to meet federal standards because of No Child Left Behind. That’s the reality of the situation.
I do not mean to minimize your concern over this issue. I am just addressing the reality of what happens when the feds get a foothold in local matters like education.
Anyone who thinks that education imparted in high school is geared to enable all to go to college is dreaming in technicolor. The SAT tests are far more difficult, especially the English reading and composition, which comprise two thirds of the SAT now, than the education level achieved by most high schoolers. Most high school students, at least here in Prince William County can barely pass the SOLs at the end of the year. Whether or not everyone is college material we will never know.
The ESOL program is another aberration. If we allow a large number of people to have an alternative education standard, one which does not even come close to the needs of a good college, then we are creating a large number of student who think themselves able to have college in their sights and who will never be able to achieve that dream.
Fed up,
I never said that the education imparted in high school is geared to enable all to go to college. Far from that. The curriculum is designed around the assumption that all students will go to college. Big difference.
I also beg to differ that MOST high school students in Prince William County can barely pass SOL tests at the end of the year. The pass rates for each school and for the county and state are a matter of public record. If you look at the numbers, the facts will bear what I am saying out. Prince William County Schools overall have an acceptable pass rate.
My original intent was not to pick at PWCS, but to examine the educational philosophy of our nation. Curriculums are designed in many states for those going to college and make very little accommodation for those who do not plan to go to college or who aren’t college material, for whatever reasons I am advocating more vocational training in public school to train students. perhaps if students had better vocational skills, they would trump out the cheaper competition. My premise was only food for thought, not a full course meal.
As for ESOL, I cannot address what you have said because it bears no resemblance to what I know about ESOL classes. The ESOL classes I am aware of are more or less crash courses in English so students can be moved to mainstream education. Are there abuses? Sure. I would say those abuses are the exception rather than the rule. English as a second language students only have special testing accommodations for a few years. Then they are thrown to the wolves, so to speak, and have to pass the same tests everyone else does.
Finally, SAT tests should be more difficult because not everyone in America belongs in college. If we insist that everyone go to college, then we should not be surprised when an immigrant force comes in to take jobs where no college is needed or required.
Dolph
The educational level should be much higher, so that those that do not fit in the pre-college corridor can look at alternative careers or “vocational” teaching. The problem is not that the curricula are geared for a 100% college enrollment. It is the very fact that the udecational standards are so low that makes everyone believe that college is the only hope for finding meaningful employment. And in truth, without college, most better paying jobs are not available. On the other hand, college is becoming much more an unattainable goal because of the enormous costs it entails. I can guarantee you that there many less deserving people in college because of the ability of these students to pay for it. The ones who cannot attend college are the ones who have good grades but no financial means I know just one of these students. He has a perfect GPA and a very high score for his SAT. He was admitted to Virginia Tech but cannot attend because financial aid was for merely 6000 dollars. Three banks refused loan applications because he could not find a cosigner.
Twenty years ago much more financial aid was available for college bound students. Therefore it is not a jaded society who is elitist which we are looking at. on the contrary, we are giving high school students a very poor education, so that without college, very few jobs would be available. The altervative to college should not be a blue collar job. The alternative should be a decent education, as it is taught in many european countries, which can be translated in medium level occupations and skilled secretarial, legal, office jobs.
In Europe, for example, high schools are divided by subject matters. There is a high school for accounting, one for art, one for languages and many others, including technical and other vocational schools. It is the lack of these kind of school and the low standards we have for the high and middle schools that are causing the work force to be so non competitive compared with other countries.
The educational level in high school in Europe is equivalent to a 2-3 year college degree. Even though high school is five years, I can tell you from direct experience that most of the material covered in the first three years of college i had already been exposed to in my last three years of high school. As of today, comparative studies from Europe are accredited exactly that way. A person who has finished high school in most European countries is automatically credited the first two years of college.
As far as the US being an elitist countries with overemphasis on education, that is just nonsense. There is not enough emphasis on education. Everything is geared to economic success not to level of education achieved. A successful business will receive much more accolades than a professor or scientist in today’s society.
Fed up,
The United States has the most egalitarian school system in the world. Perhaps that is part of the problem. In fact, I would be willing to pit our top US students against top students of any other country. The United States has not attained its place in the world because it produces generation after generation of numb-skulls.
There is nothing wrong with being a ‘blue collar’ worker. We need craftsmen, artisans, mechanics, etc in our work force. My only point has been, that our education system, nationally, does not really provide for those who are trade oriented. Since everyone is not headed to college and since some students are headed to jobs and careers that do not need further academic education, it seems to me that a good investment would be to provide more preparation for post graduation jobs. To put it more bluntly, we don’t need to teach all pigs to sing.
College IS expensive. However, there are ways around many of these expenses for students who really want to go to college. Students can start off at community college where the costs are much less. Students can also live at home and commute in metropolitan areas. Students can join a variety of work-study programs. All sorts of kids have managed to get a degree when Mommy and Daddy aren’t able to foot the bill.
I don’t know of any U. S. colleges of any academic credibility that grant 2 years of credit to European students just because they finished high school. Do you have any examples? Many of our students, upon entering college, are given credit for specific high school courses they have taken based on the performance of the student and the rigorousness of the course.
I never said the United States was an elitist country with an over emphasis on education. What I said was: ‘Perhaps if we would get over our effete snobbery about education and get those kids who could be the backbone of our work force into vocational skills instead of Shakespeare, employers wouldn’t be so quick to hire foreigners over Americans.’
If you insist on disputing every thing I have said, without specifically addressing those things I have said, please at least do not put words in my mouth. You are attempting to argue with me over assertions I have not made. I am also not ready to accept that U. S. or Prince William County educational standards are low and I do not believe you can fortify your comments with facts.
Dolph
I am sorry. I don’t think you know enough about educational standards in other countries to make these assertions. As far as credit being given for high school in other countries, please call any agency that does foreign education accreditation here in Virginia or any other state. Or you can call any Embassy, French , Italian or German.
On the other hand, I can assure you that if you go to Europe with an american high school diploma, that you have to do additional studies before you enter university and I am not talking about language studies. Germany for example has a one year minimum course called a “habitur” which everyon from the US has to take before given credit.
As far as being numb skulls, bad education does not make you supid. I am just stating what is a very well known fact. And that is that american education is way behind other first world countries and some second world countries. American is also not the only country that has an “egalitarian” school system. Many european schools are free until University and universitiy enrollment and taxes are way less expensive than any american public college.
Fed up,
And I do not think you know enough about the education system in the United States to be making the assertions you are making. Actually, the only assertions I have made are 1. I would pit our brightest kids against those in any other country 2. the United States has the most egalitarian school system in the world. We educate all children. 3. Our colleges do not routinely accept several years of credit from European high schools as college credit. (and for the record, the receiving college grants credits, not embassies, agencies and the like)
Please tell me why, if the American education system is so second rate, do people from all over the world stand in line to get student Visas to the United States to study? You obviously want to address your own agenda, toot your own horn, and bird walk away from my original premise which was better vocational programs for high school students not headed to college.
This has turned in to an America -bashing session and I do not choose to participate in it. We have no gates on our shores keeping people in. You may read into that whatever you wish.
Dolph,
We should teach students who do not speak English the way it used to be done. Which of course was put them in the same class as the English speaking students without any special type of programs.
Not everyone is good at math, does that mean they should have a special math program for those that are not yet masters of math? Or how about science?
COM,
I pretty much don’t have an opinion on the best way to bring Non-English speakers up to speed. It is probably easier on everyone else if they are given the crash course. I don’t have a clue what is best for them, however.
Dolph
I do know and respect there being a problem with immigration and the impact it has had to your community. I would just like to relay something from another time and another place.
I must say after reading a good number of posts at this website I feel compelled to write about a very humble man I met when I worked at a landmark restaurant on Long Island New York. His name was Juan. He was from Puerto Rico. Most of the other people who worked there knew the routine, so they could have cared less if I knew what I was doing; however Juan did take the time and to someone new who really didn’t know the ropes, was very generous of him to give up his time to help.
He showed me pictures of his Wife and Children and it was a hardship for him to be so far away. I asked him why he didn’t work in his own country and he said that there was no work and what work there was would not support his family, so he came to America. He lived in a crowded house directly behind the restaurant with all the other Puerto Rican workers. It seemed incredible to me that he would live on so little, yet send so much home to his family so they could have a better life. Maybe that is why so many families today who cross our borders want to try and stay together. I also remember alot of the teenage kids insulting them because they didn’t drive cars or have a home of their own. Most days they wore the same clothing because it would make it easier for them to save money. The assistant manager payed them the best compliment by saying to me: “If it weren’t for them, this place wouldn’t run!”
This is not a conservative issue or a liberal one, any more than it is a republican or democrat. It is a Human issue. I am sure if my friend Juan had a choice, he would have rather been with his family then miss all the Birthdays and Family Holidays. People have to make choices and the ones that these brave people made back then literally affected whether they could survive.
I am now 51 years of age and remember back to when I was 16. The world has changed but the needs of people haven’t. The problem of immigration is widespread but it isn’t going to change the spirit of the American people, because our people have survived a history of many calamities. We will prevail and remember we are all from the same creator.
Our World,
What was the point of your post? Was Juan an illegal? If not, why lump him in with them?
America has plenty of hard working, sacrificing Native born Americans. I bet any number of us can tell stories of parents or grandparents who worked hard to raise a family. I am not saying you are doing this, but many illegal aliens supporters seem to think only immigrants work hard and sacrifice for their families. I guess they do this to distract folks from the criminality of illegals. America has also been able to attract millions of hard working legal immigrants who came here and gave back to the Country they immigrated to.
Illegals spit in the face of those people and tradition. I don’t care if an illegal works 90 hours a week to help their family, the fact they are illegal washes out any sympathy from me.
If Juan was Puerto Rican, then he was a US citizen and therefore not here illegally. I think it always is a good idea to put a face on people. Otherwise the human element gets lost in the shuffle.
Is Puerto Rico in the same third world condition as Mexico?
I do not know. I think they have the same problems with distribution of wealth as Mexico has. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
Dolph,
Of course the crash course is the best way. If you think about it, that is how every student learns every subject. A student may not know a particular type of math but they are in the same classroom with other learners who may be more knowledgeable of that particular type of math. They are expected to learn during the course.
“I do know and respect there being a problem with immigration and the impact it has had to your community.”
Our World, I believe that you have missed a very big point and, in the process, made a very big point that we have been trying to get acoss to people…the issue is ILLEGAL aliens, not immigrants. There really is a BIG difference. Immigrants are here legally and not at all the issue, as much as the illegal alien lobby would like to make them part of it.
The difference or distinction is that most Americans work and bring their money home to their families living under the same roof not separated hundreds perhaps a thousand miles away. Granted, there is a problem with large groups of people crossing over undocumented but it is also a testament of how much they want to be part of the American dream…
Dolph,
It strikes me interesting that because Puerto Rico is under U.S. jurisdiction makes it okay for someone to be in this country. If Haiti or the Dominican Republic were also under U.S. jurisdiction it would be “Kosher” in your eyes? The point of all this seems more like a game of “Simon Sez”. Some people are welcome because our country has vested interest in them and countries that either want to keep their independence do so or the
U. S. takes no interest for political and economic reasons. Just something to ponder.
Curious,
Of course there is a difference between people who are Citizens of the United States and those who are not. If you can’t see that, you are hopeless.
citizenofmanassas,
If Puerto Rico is part of the United States, then why is it not the 51st state of our country and why then are their citizens unable to vote for both House, Senate and National Presidential Elections? Guess it pays to become a citizen of this country.
Puerto Rico is a Commonwealth, and is not a State. That of course does not mean the people residing there are not United States Citizens.
Citizens without representation?