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County Schools To Discriminate Against Citizens?
By Greg L | 15 August 2007 | Prince William County | 83 Comments
Just in case anyone was unclear that the Prince William County Schools are eager to educate illegal aliens, they sent out a press release recently just to make sure. From the presser:
Children who will need English language services are encouraged to register at the School Division’s two Central Registration sites (703.791.2727 and 703.491.8432) before school starts. There have been no changes in regard to non-English-speaking students attending school. Schools will not ask families for any form of immigration identification. In accordance with state and federal laws and decisions by the United States Supreme Court, the Prince William County Public School Division is committed to providing an education for all students every day, regardless of their immigration status.
How wonderfully politically correct. You’d think that Mexicanos Sin Fronteras drafted this thing. The press release continues with this interesting tidbit:
A certified copy of the child’s birth certificate is required at the time of registration, along with proof of residence, a social security number, and a valid immunization record signed by a healthcare professional. Students entering grades K-5 will also need a comprehensive physical exam dated within twelve months of the child’s entry into the public school system.
So let’s see, they’re going to admit illegal aliens, but require a social security number and proof of residence? How many illegal aliens are going to provide this? Or are they just going to continue to look the other way when illegal aliens fail to provide this required information, and discriminate in favor of illegal aliens and against American citizens by effectively having two separate sets of entrance requirements. One easy one for illegal aliens, and one tougher one for American citizens.
The opportunity for a lawsuit charging unlawful discrimination here is utterly huge. I wonder if anyone is going to take advantage of this opportunity.
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Man you think we had accomplished something prince william county. I guess there is way more work to do.
I wish I had to register my kid, because I would refuse to give the schools any documentation except proof of where we lived. I hope someone in the county would be willing to do this and then like Greg said sue the hell out of them for discrimination.
As always, there are two seperate laws in this country. One for illegals and one for Americans. Americans are usually the ones that are getting screwed!
Do I detect a little fact twisting for political purposes here? If we are going to insist on people obeying the law, it would seem to me that Prince William County Schools has no choice but to admit all school age children.
Obviously, with the opening of school approaching, the school system does not want to be inundated with unregistered esol students at the last minute, when staffing becomes even more difficult. The press release seems rather smart to me. Public statement regarding policy rather than operating on rumor and innuendo? Makes sense to me.
I see no changes in registration requirements. What has changed from last year? How are American students being discriminated against? Facts please.
PWCS must rise above all political disagreement about the immigration issue and do what it is there to do: educate all school age students. To become involved in politics is foolhardy and basically, not the job of any public school system. PWCS can no more ignore the Supreme Court ruling on this issue than it could have ignored a court order to desegregate some 40-50 years ago.
The rule of law is not a schmorgasbord. We cannot go through and pick and choose which laws we are going to obey and those we are not going to obey. PWCS must create a non-hostile learning environment for its students. Change in the current laws regarding education of non-legal students must come through legislation or court rulings.
I read with interest the observationof picking and choosing which laws are going to be obeyed
Thats not fair Greg. Their hands are tied. Why don’ t you do something to help untie them? Stirrup can’t control that one. Call Bush, call Warner, call Davis but don’t blame the schools for following the law. This kind of comment “eager to educate illegals” is what makes what you do so dismissable in the eyes of many. You have a good thing going don’t shoot yourself in the foot.
I too would refuse any kind of identification for my children if the same is not required for illegals. I encourage everybody to do the same. One set of rules for all, or nothing. This has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with the fact that there will be two sets of enrollment rules and it just isn’t right. One set for the citizens and one set for the illegals. If my children were refused entry based on this, I would then in turn hire a private investigator to find an illegal child that was admitted without proper ID and a lawsuit would then be filed. Slam dunk case for discrimination. Surprising that it hasn’t happened yet.
Dolph: I hate to disagree with you, but picking and choosing which laws we obey and which ones we don’t has been going on in this area for ohhh… about 6 years now. I know for sure that the ones they choose to enforce and the ones they don’t CERTAINLY is still going strong.
Well Dolph, I agree with a lot of what you say, of course…the law must be followed, whether as an individual, I like it or not.
However, if documentation requirements, e.g., a social security number, are not required for children of illegal immigrants, why must it be a requirement for children of citizens? It seems to me that basic entrance requirements should either be requirements for all students or they aren’t really “requirements” at all.
As always Dolph is the Don Quixote of the illegal alien cause.
If we want to create a non hostile school environment in PWC Schools, why don’t we remove all the MS13 members who are now running the halls and all the children who are going around bullying everybody by saying they are MS13?
Or is that another “smart” policy?
Our school system is collapsing under the weight of the escalating migration of illegals, whether they are latino or not.
I registered my child for kindergarten at a PWC school last year. They were very adament that I have all the required documentation. I arrived with their birth certificate and completed ‘blue form’ which is the county’s standard medical form/shot record and my drivers license (which was all that was needed in the past). I did not know I had to bring a copy of my mortgage documents, utility bill or some other document proving my residency. I was digging through my purse trying to find something that would satisfy them to try to get it handled. Voter registration card showing that exact school as my polling place…nope, not good enough. I had to go home and come back with a copy of my electric bill. They seemed to take enjoyment in making me jump through these hoops even though I’ve lived at this address for 20 years, they know me and know I have had two other children attend this school. I know all that is irrelevant because the requirements are clear and I was missing a piece of paper. I just wanted to point out that this employee certainly demanded exactly everything that was required and I was sent away until I could provide them. I did refuse to provide my child’s SSN because I have adopted a personal policy to refuse to provide this for anything at all. I’m doing all I can to protect my children against rampant identify theft, especially those targeting children’s SSN’s because they can get many years out of it before anyone ever catches on.
If I had been the mother of an illegal alien, would I have been denied registration without a second document proving residency? No! I would not have had to provide anything and I would have been welcomed and provided forms in spanish and had someone sit with me and basically fill them out for me. Although my children are fully immunized and supposedly protected against someone with diptheria sitting next to them in class, I am livid that children are admitted to our schools without proper immunization documentation. Although forging the document is pretty simple. It wouldn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out the dates your child should have had these shots and just write them on the form. Proof of immunization is a blue form with various dates written in the boxes. Not very definitive proof as far as I’m concerned.
Dolph,
Once again you have proven that you are a supporter of illegals. Yes, some illegals have stolen social security numbers, and birth certificates but for the most part the majority do not have them, otherwise they would not have to line up at the 7-11 to look for work, they could go to any number of temp agencies or employment services like normal people do. Yet, they choose to stand on the street corner and look for work why? Why should only non illegals have to show that much documention in order to registrar their children.
You act as if the schools should not do their jobs, who cares how busy it gets around the start of the school year, that is part of the job of being a public school– making sure every student that is enrolled did it the right way.
Are they exempt from showing immunization records too? IT IS NOT FAIR PERIOD!
Although one would think the schools would appreciate taking steps which protect the health and well being of our children, as well as fix the overcrowding, they like having all that extra money that more enrollees bring.
The law is the law… I heard that before here. I have to agree with you here Dolph.
If you don’t want to show SSN don’t do it, they won’t force you. You need to prove residence though and they cannot deny enrollment once you do that.
They do require them to show immunization records. That is why the clinics are packed with kids getting shots right before and after school starts. Some schools pass out information for the county and state health clinics that offer free or discounted immunization programs in August. But they don’t really have to show a social security card or a utility bill.
There is definitely a double standard with school registration.
Last year I was frustrated sitting in the school office, filling out all those stupid forms which ask for the same info over and over only see a woman next to me work with a translator who filled out her forms for her. I assumed it was because the mom was unable to read or write. In this case the mom did not have a utility bill either, so the school accepted a handwritten note in Spanish on a scrap of paper that the mom handed them. The translator translated it out loud for the other secretary and it basically said something “so and so is renting a room at my address. Signed so and so”. The school accepted it and the kid was registered. However my child was not registered because I had to go all the way back home to find a utility bill proving I really lived at my address.
I was shocked to see that they didn’t even check property records to make sure the writer of the note was in fact the owner of the property. I wondered if I could have used the same technique if I wanted my child to go to a different middle school than they were slated to attend. Could I just make up a name, and scribble a note on a scrap of paper saying I rented a room at an address in that area? The answer is probably not. As a Caucasian woman, I have no doubt I would have been not been allowed to show up with a scrap of paper in Spanish saying I lived at a particular address.
Incidentally, a school staff member later told me that these situations with the handwritten notes and multiple families at one address are referred to as “piggybackers” because there is more than one family registered at a particular address.
The piggybacking is what caused the huge problem in Manassas City schools. Manassas city was almost completely built out in 2000 meaning there was virtually no raw land left to develop. No new land meant no new homes and no new children into that system. The existing schools were adequate since there couldn’t be any new children. The CIP budget in the city school system didn’t include ANY money for new school construction and only budgeted for the renovations and ongoing maintainance for the existing schools.
All 5 elementary schools were completely overwhelmed with an influx of new students, both illegal and legal immigrants. These students didn’t arrive with new taxes to help out because they were piggybackers. So the schools had to educate 5 or 6 children from a household while the city only received the taxes that were set for a household with 2 kids. If assessments hadn’t been climbing so high, they would have really been in trouble. These new children entered school speaking no English for the most part, so the ESL budget went from $125,000 to over $2 million in a matter of 4 years!
The school system couldn’t afford to add additions onto each elementary school, so they built Mayfield Intermediate to handle all city 5th and 6th graders. The PTA people that participated in the decision of how to handle that new school were told very specifically that the sole reason for that new school was due to the impact of the influx of immigrants who were doubling and tripling up in existing housing.
Although I’m not sure I could ever find in my heart to not educate a child, I am convinced that illegal immigration has taken a toll on my own children’s education. We are paying a price for this influx and the areas with higher percentages of illegals are paying the highest price.
“I was shocked to see that they didn’t even check property records to make sure the writer of the note was in fact the owner of the property. I wondered if I could have used the same technique if I wanted my child to go to a different middle school than they were slated to attend. Could I just make up a name, and scribble a note on a scrap of paper saying I rented a room at an address in that area? The answer is probably not. As a Caucasian woman, I have no doubt I would have been not been allowed to show up with a scrap of paper in Spanish saying I lived at a particular address.”
This is only happening because you allowed it to happen. If I had kids, it would not be happening to me I assure you. There would be PI’s, lawyers and lawsuits involved. I would not want my kids sitting next to some kid who didn’t have immunization records or one that came from some third world country that may or may not have the same level of control over communicable diseases that we have here. One set of rules for all. It’s up to you, me, all of us to make sure that this happens. If the government fails us then it’s up to the people to make sure things get done. If the schools get a few hundred parents that refuse to abide by the rules set only for them then they may start to rethink their stance on this issue. It’s in your hands. I know what I would do.
TH,
Funny how you say the law is the law, but you keep making excuses for illegals. The law says immigrants must come here legally, yet illegals don’t. But, the law is the law….
Where I am making excuses for illegals? I am just mentioning a consequence of what could happen. If it is a consequence that affects you , then it is Ok then?
I am just trying to bring an idea to the discussion.
Thank you Anonamom
I am glad that someone is pointing the finger in the right direction.
I also resent that people who refuse to accept the illegal invasion are immediately called names and being made to feel like they are not intelligent or educated. The truth is that there are no more excuses for this travesty. There is no reason to justify or accept people who want to destroy our country and our way of life.
Just look at the rhetoric of bloggers like dirty sanchez and you will see that we need to stop being blind to the reality that is before our eyes. Fight we must and we will. And we will do so to the full extent of the LAW.
Greg and others:
First: It’s in our long-term interest to have all children in the county receive an education, so let’s leave the schools alone.
Second: If and when an appellate decision on the Hazleton case comes out that says localities can pass laws that incorporate the federal law against harboring illegals, and when and if the County passes such an ordinance, all those records that do not show a SSAN for a child could be accessed by investigators looking for addresses that are harboring illegals.
TH,
Again if laws are enforced, we will not have to worry about illegals.
If you have a child in PWCS, I suggest you call the guidance office at your child’s school and ask what is required and if the same is required for all students, including immigrant students. That is how I got my information.
There are way too many urban legends floating around to even address them all. Call and find out for yourself even if you don’t have a child in PWCS. Just say you need to get registration information.
A few general remarks:
1. All students have to have immunizations unless they file a religious exemption.
2. You may refuse to give a ss number. The student ID number will be used instead
3. No school system in their right mind wants to try to hire teachers the day school opens. Good grief. That should not even need an explanation. Talk about scraping the bottom of the proverbial barrel.
I am simply dumbfounded by the amount of disinformation floating around here.
Frankly, there really is nothing you or anyone else can do about the legal vs. illegal situation in schools unless there is federal legislation that specifies that education will not be provided to children unless a parent shows that they are in the country legally.
COM and Fed Up, you know, I have really had it with your illogical crap. Do you seriously think I would waste my time reading through all the blather and BS some of you all dish out if I were here to defend the dreaded illegal? I am not quite that bored yet.
I don’t know any way to say this any plainer: Schools cannot ask for proof of legal status. Doesn’t mean I like it, approve of it, or anything else. Supreme Court decision. Just is. Schools must educate all children in their jurisdiction. (Which is why you have to prove you are legally in the jurisdiction)
There are some serious problems in this region of Virginia. Some of us want to find solutions to these problems by arming ourselves with facts and logically coming up with solutions. This ‘The sky is falling! The sky is falling’ mentality serves no purpose other than to provide an expression of frustration. It turns people off and drives out those who might just be supporting the same cause you are.
Anonmom, absolutely the illegal situation has impacted your child’s education and the matter has been made 10 times worse by the No Child Left behind Act.
My phone call this morning told me that there are affidavit sheets now that have to be notarized regarding residency if deeds or other documentation is not available. I failed to ask if they were in use last year because I had not read your post. I, like you, find scribbling on a sheet of paper unacceptable as a form of proof of residency.
Anonymous, if you were treated rudely by the person registering your child for school, you do have recourse. Call or write the superintendent.
Everyone should have the same registration requirements. If anyone finds out this is not happening, file a complaint.
“It’s in our long-term interest to have all children in the county receive an education” - totally disagree. better for the illegal population to pack up and move. That is our long-term interest.
Civility - red carpet
I like when people gives you facts. Let’s see if people respond. Often, people tend to leave after hearing real facts or they just resort to namecalling. I would like to read people apologizing.
We have the stupid and the crazies who just post from timt to time (dirty sanchez for example), but I expect people actually doing something like Dolph to get the information right.
Dolph, I think you got the “official” policy but that is not the reality of what actually happens. That affidavit is actually the handwritten note. The one I saw plainly was not notarized and it wasn’t even written in English. The school system may state that policy but in reality that is not what happens. Just make friends with a few school front desk assistants and you’ll get the real story.
If the school system is going to enforce the residency requirement, they should be fair about it and not force me to go all the way home to get an official bill when they accept a note from the other mom. BTW, I forgot to mention that I actually had to go back home twice. The first bill I grabbed to bring back was a cell phone bill WHICH DIDN’T COUNT because it was a cell phone and not a landline bill, so they made me go back home and get an utility bill.
The policy should be fair across the board. Provide a utility bill with your name or if you are renting a room, provide a copy of your official lease. A handwritten note should not suffice for anyone. A handwritten note also brings to mind the income tax questions. I’m guessing if you give out handwritten notes, you are also not claiming the rental income on that unit nor paying the income tax on the rental income nor are you providing a legal lease as required.
As far as complaining, many parents do complain but it isn’t the school secretary’s fault and they are just as irritated by what happens as everyone else. Because of privacy laws, the schools will absolutely not provide any information on any child if you did happen to raise a complaint that the child was not a resident. The principal’s hands are tied as well. Can you imagine what would happen if an elementary principal refused to admit some of these children? They’d be out of job in a heart beat. It is much easier to just accept the handwritten note and look the other way.
In my case I did complain. The front desk people I talked to said they had been handed all kinds of things in place of a lease or bill, and the handwritten note was actually better than others. One parent brought back a document showing an interest in a vacant lot zoned business in a name different from the child. The employee questioned it with her principal but the principal said “go ahead and accept it”.
The rules aren’t the same, no matter how bad you want to believe that they are. And frankly, if you called right now and complained to school that you had been standing in the school office, and seen the handwritten note or the vacant business lot deed accepted as proof of residency with your very own eyes, the principal and the school system would quickly claim privacy issues and not do a single thing about it.
There is one thing that I think all can agree with, children who are here legally are adversely affected by illegal aliens. Schools have to use money that could be used to further a child’s education, to have ESOL classes and bring the children of illegals up to speed. I’ve read stories in the paper about how these children of illegals are even illiterate in their own language. When they come to our schools everyone suffers for it. What a shame.
Do you have an answer for that one Nancy Lyall?
As a teacher in Manassas City who is required to review the cum records of all of my students I can state with some authority that ALL of my students have the same types of documents prior to enrolling in school. Parents either give lease agreements, mortgage bills or a letter from DSS that states that they live where they say they live, along with a utility bill of some sort. Parents also give their driver license which is copied, as well as the above documents. Every student is required to have a birth certificate. More than 90 percent have US birth certificates, however birth certificates from other countries are accepted. The birth cert number, date and place of issue are all recorded. All of my former students did have an SSN number, and copies were made of the original card that the parents were required to show. ALL students had a physical and current immunizations and those who did not, were not allowed to begin school until their parents complied.
PW county differs. When I went to register my son last year, I was told that my mortgage bill was not sufficient. I have no clue as to why. I was told that I had to produce my car registration, voter regis card or a utility bill that had my name on it, not just my husbands. I also had to provide the notarized affidavit where I stated that I lived in the county. Like in Manassas City I also had to produce the original SSN card for my son, along with an official birth cert (no copy).
I heard via the school grapevine( so one must examine the accuracy) that enrollment #’s in many city schools is lower than normal…seriously lower. Possible teacher layoff lower.
Anomom,
I called a personal friend whose job it is to register students. I didn’t say why I wanted to know. I just asked some questions.
I would say things were a little slack at your child’s school and perhaps you need to kick your complaint up the old chain of command. I don’t think for a minute that any principal would be out on the streets for requiring his/her staff to follow PWCS policy.
It really sounds to me like the superintendent’s office needs to review procedure with the administrative staff and start holding everyone accountable for requiring the same documentation. This cannot be done if he isn’t aware that there is a problem.
Grousing to the school secretaries isn’t going to solve the problem. They do not make or enforce policy, although I have met a few who would like for you to believe otherwise.
Patty,
It appears that NL is no longer with the school system.
You have some valid concerns over where money now has to be spent.
Part of the problem is that No Child (is to be) Left Behind. NCLB is a perfect example of what happens when the feds make the laws and leave us at the local level to pay for the mess they have created. Sound familiar?
ateacher,
Can you please not refer to cumlative records as ‘cum’ records. Thank you~
Thanks redawn!!
Dolph,
You are welcome, I agree it is a sticky situation and something needs to be done.
Redawn,
No kidding!
Is this same documentation nonsense occurring at the DMV and Voters’ registration? I’ve heard that all you need to do is check off you are a citizen on the voter form and turn it in.
Dolph and TH,
You both try to play the middle on this issue, yet in reality, like the MJM, you poo poo any idea to make it harder for illegals to live here. You say you want to follow the law sometimes, but not all the time. You simply choose based on your support for illegals.
The schools should have the number of staff on hand as needed in order to do their jobs. That does not mean hire staff on the first day of school, but to look ahead and figure out just how many staff members will be needed. That way, they are not caught in the rush.
Yes, the schools cannot turn down students, that is not in question, what is in question is how they handle illegals compared to non illegals, and there is a difference.
Secondly, I am sure most parents will be asked for a social security number, except those that appear to not have one, and we all know who that might be.
ateacher,
How many students do you have?
Just exactly which Supreme Court ruling says a school cannot ask immigration status??
COM:
How do propose the schools “plan ahead” for hiring teachers when they don’t have final numbers until registrations are done? Most PWCS have a general idea how many students they will have, but that doesn’t mean the numbers are exact. It may be that there are an influx of third graders, for instance, that requires hiring another third grade teacher even though overall school population numbers are right on track.
Second, Dolph and TH only said that public schools, under decisions made by the Supreme Court, must accept any student that resides in their district regardless of citizenship status. The only documents the school absolutely require are proof of address (utility bill, etc.) and an immunization record. Anyone, legal or illegal, who provides those documents must be enrolled. So where’s the double-standard?
COM,
What laws do I not want to follow? Please be specific.
How do I support illegal immigrants? Please be specific.
I don’t have the patience to explain why PWCS might want to get those esol students to pre-register rather than show up on the first day.
Different people have different problem solving methods, different delivery systems. For example, I can say: When I see your face, time stands still. Or, I can say: Your face is so ugly it would stop a clock.
Now, which delivery system do you think is going to net more positive results?
Just saying,
There was a story on WTOP last week that said the enrollment for the County would be 72,000. That number came from the school system. It does not take a genius(even though we are dealing with liberals) to figure out how large of a staff is needed to handle registration, not teachers mind you, but office staff.
Dolph,
It seems America, from the Feds down to the local Governments have already tried to pander to the illegals, and look where it has gotten us. It is time we got tough on them, and if that makes them feel uncomfortable so be it. We simply cannot ignore them and hope the problems associated with illegals go away. MS-13 is growing the number of illegals are growing, and the arrogance of illegals and their supporters are growing. Yet, you just seem to want to continue to not offend them in anyway. Can you honestly say that way is working?
You really are like the MJM, they poo poo the 287 program, the overcrowding program, the attempt to limit street peddlers. Yet they never come up with a suggestion, they just find it easier to take shots at people who in good faith are trying to get a handle on an issue that is out of control. That is not the sky is falling bs, that is the truth. Recall what illegal alien supporter Skinner said about the 287 program— the jails would be overcrowded if the program were to be implemented. What does that tell you about the interaction the police have with illegals in the City? I bet it is the same in the County and the Park too.
COM,
You don’t want us to play the middle, you just want the dirty sanchez type of comments. You just want me to call you racist so you can dismiss my opinions.
You haven’t said anything to subtantiate your statements. Dolph comments are realistic. The fact that you don’t like them doesn’t mean that we are here to defend illegal aliens.
The point Dolph made was very specific: you don’t pick the law you want to enforce.
I bring facts and try to avoid the namecalling(I have apologized when I have done it).
You don’t like my posts because I tell you that the implementation of any measure against illegal aliens have both postive and negative consequences. I am not saying that we shouldn’t do it but there are not neutral measures.
If you want me to say that once you get rid of illegal aliens your life will be better right away, well I cannot say that.
There are cities without major problems with illegal aliens and still you have many issues you have to deal with (welfare for example).
So just don’t demonize us, come up with realistic ideas.
COM,
The data from the Manssas police says that only one out of 20 gang members arrested can be classified as a foreign national.
Get rid of all illegal aliens and still you will have to deal with MS-13.
I guess that you are aware that MS-13 did not start in El Salvador.It was in LA. The kids that are deported don’t even speak Spanish. They cannot adapt to El Salvador. My point is that you have a serious problem here that doesn’t get solved by getting rid of one group. That group is made of criminals who crossed the border illegally but a lot of the criminals you see around are also american citizens.
TH
I am sorry to see that your compassion extends to MS 13 members. They cannot cope with El Salvador? Poor guys. they should have thought of that before they committed crimes and joined a gang. Not to mention that it seems strange that they would be deported and not speak spanish. First generation almost always speaks spanish and almost always are citizens becuase they are born here. How do we deport people that are born here and speak only English? The other problem you are not addressing is the fact that many illegals are JOINING MS 13. If we can get rid of one of these people I will be a happier person.
Where di i say that i have compassion for the MS-13?
I said that getting rid of the illegal aliens won’t solve the problems of gangs, just one example.
If they cannot adapt to el salvador it is their problem. I pretty much don’t care were they are sent or waht you do with them. I don’t even deal with them where I live. You will send all the illegal aliens back to el salvador, Mexico, Panama, Ireland, Poland, etc and your daughter will have to deal with that issue in school because the MS-13 kids who are americans cannot be deported. Good Luck!
There are some times when I think that I can talk with you fed up, but right away you bring me back to reality.
You just want me to say to every of your post: You are a racist, then you will feel vindicated.
TH,
Sounded like pretty neutrally delivered info to me. Sorry if I missed your compassionate tone. I guess we should shoot the messenger?
What I find amazing is the number of people who speak fluent Spanish but cannot read or write Spanish, only English.
Another correction fed up, these kids are not considered first-generation by “social scientist” theyt are considered the 1.5 generation. They were not born here but they don’t have a connection with the home country. I see that every day here in Maryland. There are some young kids who were born in El Salvador and when i tried some spanish with them, they don’t understand it but they cannot speak it.
You are hal spanish, so you can talk about it, right?
half spanish I meant!
Just called a county school to double check. Here is what the staff member told me was required this year:
Proof of residency: Utility bill with person’s name on it, closing mortgage documents, copy of lease OR notarized letter by landlord saying the person is a renter plus a bill in the landlord’s name at that same address.
Photo ID: doesn’t have to be a DL, can be a foreign government issued ID or passport, etc. No copy is made, they are just checked to see if they have one
Birth Certificate from US or foreign nation: supposed to be original but can sign affadavit saying they don’t have original. Original is supposed to be provided in 90 days, but enforcement is rare.
SS #: don’t have to provide, if not, issued a 999 student matriculation number. At the school I called they guessed about 50% of the hispanic incoming new students use the 999 method.
Staff member also said principals do have leeway with who they accept. They gave the example of someone who comes in and says they are building a home that isn’t finished yet and shows the purchase agreement that they signed when they put the contract on the house. The principal can accept that student and not force the residency issue so the child wouldn’t have to transfer within the year from the old school to the new when the parents moved into the new house. There can also be leeway if a child lives with grandparents or is watched by a babysitter in a different school area as long as it still is in the county system.
Staff member said there is a push this year to be a little more forceful with the checking the residency documents and actually requiring the notarized (it didn’t sound like they enforced it in previous years) but the staff member said the attention to detail wasn’t it wasn’t because of the illegal immigration issue. Instead it was because of the overcrowding and they want to make sure people are not trying to sneak into a different school.
Staff member thought principals might not be so lenient this year with people building homes, etc.
The other interesting fact that they mentioned when I asked if there was any effect of the recent immigration news is that enrollment numbers are down from last year for incoming new students AND even more surprising, they have had many requests over the last 3 days for students who are transferring OUT of the county schools. I asked if these children had hispanic names and the staff member said yes in almost cases. They had some non hispanic transfers but those were out of state or completely out of the area transfers. The addresses the transfer students are giving as to where they are transferring into are mostly in Manassas Park (not surprising), Manassas City (somewhat surprising) and Fairfax (not surprising).
Anon,
Thank you for providing such detailed information. That is pretty much what I was told but you have taken the time and trouble to outline it in detail here.
COM, COM, COM,
What’s a girl to do? I have not criticized PW’s efforts to sign up for the 287 program. I know nothing about an overcrowding program, and I said nothing about supporting the street vendors. In fact, I have refused to allow my gkids to buy from them.
You have been given the opportunity to tell me where ad how I have supported illegal aliens and to point out laws I do not want to follow. So far you have been failed to do so. That leads me to believe that you just want to pick a fight.
Sorry, I just cannot commit the energy to in-fighting. It is way too counter-productive and tiresome.
Dolph and TH,
First for TH. I suppose we should not enforce DUI laws since the obvious negatives to enforcing the dui laws are that people will not be able to go out and get drunk to the point of not being able to drive, an obvious blow to personal choice, bars and restaurants will see a drop in business. Yup, those are the negatives. We should be more concerned with the rights of the people to go out get drunk and cause accidents. Do most drunks get into accidents? I don’t think so. Yet, we don’t take the attitude that only some of the drunk drivers get into accidents, but lets not lump them all in the same group.
You are staking out that position because you do support illegals. You sympathize with them, and can only come up with negatives for why some laws should not be enforced or why new laws should not be created in order to combat illegal aliens. You seem to want to push the school enrollment laws, because of course it allows illegals to suck off the system. Yet, you are not in favor of any laws that might inconvenience illegals, or make it harder for them to suck off the system. And, you wonder why people say y’all support illegals.
You asked why we should not take you approach, and I told you why. You have nothing to say in return. Why?
TH, of course we have our own criminals. But, that does not mean we ignore people who come here illegally. You simply cannot bring yourself to dislike illegals.
Anon thanks for posting. You in fact counter what Dolph was saying. There clearly is a different set of standards for illegals and non-illegals. Otherwise there would be no leeway.
TH
I am half spaniard, not hispanic by your definition. Figueres. Figure it out, if you can you get five points.
1.5 and can’t speak spanish? who are you talking to? and why do you feel sorry if they don’t fit in in El Salvador. And how do you define 1.5? Is this fuzzy math?
Let’s see 1.5 implies that : 1) the person is not born here. If he is born in El Salvador but brought here chances are that they speak spanish just fine. 2) if they know that their status is precarious why are they joining gangs? don’t they know they could be deported? And if they are gang members, to be deported they must have broken the law because I am not aware of anyone being pursued without first having done something.
Now more fuzzy math: my mother was an american citizen, but I was adopted. Now I can speak spanish, but I have never met my father. Are you following me? What does that make me? Am I a 1.25 or a 1.75?
COM,
Your gadfly tendencies, inability to read correctly, and proclivities towards bullying have made you irrelevant to me. At this point, I really could give a rat’s rear end what you think of me. Obviously you are having a few synapse misfires.
Dolph,
I guess the truth hurts.
fed up you are a god!
COM,
You won I support all the bad things in the world.. ..I grew up with R. Juarez and I am his kids godfather.
Call me Zapatista and you win all the arguments
“1) the person is not born here. If he is born in El Salvador but brought here chances are that they speak spanish just fine”
You just don’t think fed up. What if a person is brought here when they were babies?
Again ,giving you the name of racist would be too much you are just an ignorant person who cannot even read a post
k. o’toole,
I have heard that is all you have to do on voter’s registration. How ridiculous.
DMV is another story. I was told this is all the fault of home land security. I inadvertently let my license expire. I thought it expired on the 31st and it expired on my birthday.
When I went online I was told I had to prove citizenship with a birth certificate. I went out to DMV with birth certificate in hand. That was not good enough. My name did not match my birth certificate. I tried to explain I was not born married. Not good enough. I had to come back home and scrounge a marriage certificate, official seal and all.
DMV also said they do not keep records very long. I had asked them to look up my original license gotten years ago under my maiden name. Silly me.
I highly resented the circus I had to go through just to renew the drivers license I had had since age 15. (that should be a good indicator that I got it a long long time ago) I felt the process was overkill.
Meanwhile, we have the honor system for voting? That sacred American right? Give me a break.
I am a veteran PWC teacher. Last year 80% of my students were Hispanic. No Child Left Behind is putting ENORMOUS pressure on school staff to make sure that ESOL students are able to pass the state tests. We are faced with the difficult task of educating students who speak little or no English and getting them up to par with “regular” students. My school which has 3 or 4 teachers per grade level has to have an ESOL teacher and an ESOL assistant for every grade (except kindergarten). So that is an extra 10 people providing ESOL assistance in one school alone.
If the ESOL students don’t pass the tests then that school is labeled as a failure and all sorts of negative actions are set in motion. I must say we teachers are really doing a remarkable job and the ESOL students are learning. They will grow up to be bilingual. They will have a big advantage when it comes to getting a job when they grow up.
ABC teacher,
Yes you all are doing a fine job! Thank you for speaking up about the tremendous impact NCLB is having on our educational systems, especially as it relates to our immigration issues.
TH
If the person is born in another country but brought here right away, (just like me) his/her parents would be speaking with them in their native salvadorean language (just like I was spoken my native language by my mother). Who do you think you are fooling? you are the one who looks ridiculous. I have never met a spanish speaking family who came here and did not speak spanish to their children. are you from the moon? Half of the illegals here in US do not speak any english, and some of them do not speak english even after years of being in the US. How do you think the children communicate with them? Please don’t make me laugh. You are the ignorant, bigoted, biased, chauvinist unpatriotic fool. Why don’t you go to El Salvador to rehabilitate gang members who do not fit in after being deported? That sounds like a good occupation for you. Personally I think I will give my support to LEGAL NON GANG MEMBERS IMMIGRANTS OF ANY NATION WHO DO NOT COMMIT CRIMES.
Please cut the high rethoric and cut the bs. In the end, you have demonstrated to be exactly what we do not need: an apologist and humanist who even has compassion for gang members. Get off your high horse. We have important work to do. My job with you is done!!!
ABC,
Thanks for letting us know just how much wasted money we are spending on the ESOL classes. But, I suppose that is fine with the NEA and others who support illegal aliens.
It would make much more sense to teach immigrants English the old way, but of course that would save money, and would not lead to so many issues that we currently have in many schools. But of course the NEA would throw a fit since they would not be able to spend even more tax money on wasted programs.
TH,
I guess the truth hurts you too. You are so concerned about the negative impact all of these laws and rules would have on illegals that you do come across as a supporter. You might want to think more about the negative impact illegals have on the rest of us, and then maybe you won’t be labeled a supporter of illegals.
God Bless Homeschooling!
“You both [Dolph and TH) try to play the middle on this issue, yet in reality, like the MJM, you poo poo any idea to make it harder for illegals to live here. You say you want to follow the law sometimes, but not all the time. You simply choose based on your support for illegals.”
COM, that is totally unfair! I know for a fact that Dolph is just as frustrated by the illegal alien situation as you are. Dolph has only offered FACTS about policies which have thrown roadblocks into efforts to rid ourselves of the illegal population. You should be grateful…forewarned is forearmed. Instead of constantly condemning her, you should be thanking her.
TH has offered another perspective, perhaps with a bit more understanding of the illegals than you may be comfortable, but she has nonetheless shown an appreciation of the problem and responds well to FACTS from our perspective, when they are forthcoming. You should be reading her comments from the perspective of the knowledge she offers from “the other side of the coin” and be equally grateful.
This is an issue which did not explode overnight…it has been building for years, and people of reason must come together and solve it. Knowledge of the facts from both sides is only going to help.
Sorry but at this point, polices that have pandered to illegals have not worked, and have only made the problem worse. But, I suppose we should make life as easy as possible for them, rather then insult them. While we are at it in order to not show any type of bias, we should do the same for all criminals.
I simply do not see a negative to any law that is specifically aimed at illegals. For too long there have incentives for them to live here and not worry about being caught. I simple do not have any sympathy for them or for their supporters. Nor, do I have time or understanding for people who want to look at the “human” side of this issue.
I really do not want to use Bush as an example but…. You are either on our side or against us… There can be no middle ground when it comes to illegal aliens.
There is when you are talking about the welfare of a child, most or all of which were born here.
Anon,
Not even with those children. We simply cannot allow them to use children as a scapegoat for their law breaking.
Isn’t it grand when those who have no right to be in the United States insist on, and depend on, the enforcement of federal law only when it comes to accommodation and protectionism.
With all the recent reporting about sanctuary cities and counties, there should be a growing focus on how these jurisdictions are modeling after the safe haven status afforded to illegal aliens via our public schools.
A friend, who works as a public school office secretary, reported that “schools do not require SS numbers from all enrolling students as this could expose their ‘undocumented’ status “. I asked her how schools know who to ask and not to ask. She laughed, and replied ” We are expected to profile.”
Schools aid and abet big time. School officials know that illegal aliens garner more funding; a host of expensive special support programs, “culturaly sensitive and credible” staff and services. Schools are rewarded for actively avoiding the question of immigration status. Increasing attendance numbers draws in extra public funds.
Not only are our schools a safe haven for illegal aliens and their offspring but a fortress for their advocates.
(I suggest that we look into the ever expanding VPI, Virginia Pre-school Innitiative, program that is tacking on the service of pre-school classes to K-12 public schools. Taxpayers are yet again forced to fund a program we are barred from using.)
We constantly hear that enforcing immigration laws is soley a federal issue - but on the issue of educating illegal aliens, the states have been handed the ball.
The 1982 Plyler v. Doe ruling requires the states to provide a free public k-12 education - ordering U.S. taxpayers to fund the education of children brought to the U.S. illegaly.
What the Plyler court did was put the state governments in the absurd position of aiding and abetting illegal aliens.
What the federal government did via Plyler was to pass its immigration law enforcement failures on to the states.
The powers of the federal government are enumerated in our constitution and education is not there. As Education is reserved to the states, it is rational and legal for states to soley concentrate their education funds on the citizenry.
I hope that more and more states and local governments will forge ahead and push this fight all the way to the supreme court. Revisiting Plyler is way overdue, and if a state or two were to challenge it seriously, there is an exelent chance that the current court could overturn what has been a very destructive ruling.
http://www.nbeanjon.com/plyler.htm
http://www.14thamendment.us/
http://www.mothersagainstillegalaliens.org/
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/ofc/VPI1.htm
Consider this:
All members of Help Save Manassas sign a pledge which includes the following line;
“…or otherwise contribute to conditions which may encourage the presence of illegal aliens within our communities.”
Now, consider this: How many police officers, teachers, EMT, health care providers, fire fighters and other professionals across our nation are told that their very worth, reputation and job security hinges on how well they coddle illegal aliens? They may well have no choice but to contribute to said conditions.
Those who profit from the presence of illegal aliens are more than happy to demand their employees turn a blind eye to select criminal behaviour.
Plyler v. Doe: The Root of all Evil
http://www.nbeaujon.com/plyler.htm
Bridget,
I fail to see how schools profit financially from educating illegal aliens. Please provide specifics relevant to our area.
What you failed to include in your contribution is how already burdened schools now must meet the standards of No Child Left Behind or suffer serious consequences. A key component of this law is that minorities make annual yearly progress. Guess which subgroup impacts our area school the most?
NCLB is an unfunded mandate. The pittance provided by the feds just scratches the surface of costs incurred by state and local governments. The overwhelming pressure on school staff to perform the impossible is overbearing. Read what ABC teacher has written. She just touches on part of the problem.
If anyone wants to point to schools as havens for illegal aliens, point your finger at the federal government that has caused the problem.
NCLB has added much pressure on the schools especially since schools are expected to show growth in the LEP (limited english proficiency) category. I am sure many of you remember the hoopla this past spring when the fed govt declared that all students must take the same reading test, and the substitute test VA was using for its 3rd grade ESOL students was deemed by the govt as being “too easy”. I haven’t read any data as to whether or not state reading scores plummeted as a result. I do know that last year the principal declared that due to this new rule it was likely that our school and others would not make AYP (annual yearly progress)for ‘06-’07 as required by the fed gov’t. I’ll find out next week what our school’s scores are. Schools can fail to become accredited if they do not make AYP in a single category. This is why so many systems spend money on ESOL, PALS remediation, Reading Recovery etc. Education is an assesment driven entity now. When it comes to NCLB, it’s all about the test scores and closing the achievement gap, legal status be damned.
Well said, ateacher, well said!
What surprises me is that the American public is not up in arms over this act. Perhaps it is so buried in bs and feel good that they simply do not know what has hit them, their children and their schools.
ateacger
Everything you said is right on.
Bridgett,
Thanks for the info. You spell it our correctly.
Dolph,
You really can say that without a smile on your face? Of course schools benefit from illegals, since it costs more to educate an ESL student. So, of course that means they need a larger budget.
The local schools could reject illegals outright if they wanted too. Of course it would end up in the Supreme Court again, but that does not mean we would get the same outcome as before. I think it would be a good time to challenge the old case. However, given the outright support illegals receive from the NEA, I doubt the schools have the guts to go up against the NEA and attempt to save us tax payers money.
Listen to people who are there in the trenches like ateacher and abc teacher. They are the ones who know what they are talking about.
It is really easy to pick out those who listen to talk radio and read inflammatory rhetoric about the evils of our schools but really don’t know jack first hand.
Suffice it to say, uncontrolled immigration is putting a huge financial burden on schools and consequently on the tax payers supporting the schools.
OK, Dolph, you say “I fail to see how schools profit financialy from educating illegal aliens.”
I said profit. As in to gain. As in to advance. As in to derive a benefit from.
While ateacher struggles with all that she has on her plate, where oh where are her administrators? What is her school superintendent doing? Off getting the 2007 Citizens Award from LULAC for his “dedicated service to the Latino Community.” as did Arlington County Superintendent Dr. Robert Smith? This is a guy who makes more money than a supreme court judge, has a six hundred dollar per month car allowance, his health insurance fully covered by the taxpayers and a very juicy pention down the road.
Albeit, he has options, as do all school supers and school boards across the nation. They could take a stand against the invasion of our schools on behalf of their teachers and for American children. But with Plyler and now with NCLB, they chose to play the “if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em” PC game.
One can profit in many ways. For example, one can profit from good advice, a restfull nights sleap or some good loving. One can, as the proverb goes, profit by the folly of others. Politicians often pander to profit from additional votes, accolades and awards.
You were the one who inserted the word financial.
As for NCLB , I am most certainly no fan. The law is a disaster as well as a disgrace. My point was that the federal government has dumped its failures on the doorstep of public schools and said “now we will judge your ability to make us look fabulous.”
To claim that NCLB is an unfunded mandate is something of a canard. Billions have been spent on NCLB. Federal spending on education alone has grown 11 billion since Bush took office.
My guess as to why the public is not up in arms over this issue: The public is sick and tired of the educrats and the NEA always screaming “GIVE US MORE MONEY” if you want schools to function. Everything and everyone is constantly “underfunded”, no matter how much is spent, and the need is always unmet. It always, no matter the problem, boils down to the need for additional funding.
As taxpayers we pay into the local, state and federal coffers and know damn well that no matter where the schools get their funding, it all comes out of our pockets. If NCLB were somehow fully funded by monday morning, I would bet my bottom dollar that school systems across the nation would soon after be yelling ” ITS NOT ENOUGH - SEND MORE MONEY”. If NCLB disappeared on monday morning, schools would come up with some other unfunded program that needed our financial attention.
Over the last ten years, I have seen several friends and family members walk away from teaching jobs in the public school system. I will spare you the horror stories, but I am well aware of the chaos that comes from NCLB mandates combined with a class filled with kids who not only don’t speak English - but in some cases have never attended school . Parents who demand language interpreters for teacher confernces, then never show up for the conference. Office staff who try to contact parents when a child is sick or facing some form of emergency, only to discover that the parents contact information is all falsified.
Frankly, I am all in favor of of not only getting the feds out of our schools but government out of schools altogether.
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_researchf6ad
http://www.arlington.k12.va.us/finance/budget/downloads/2007wabeguide.pdf
http://www.vdare.com/sailor/070218_child.htm
http://www.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/index.html
http://www.nclr.org.org/section/nclb_funding
http://washingtonpost.com/np-dyn/articles/A42703-2002Feb7.html
Your response tells me where you are coming from, I think. I want the feds out of our schools and you want schools to privatize. If I have misread your intent, please feel free to correct. I support our public schools. I am no stranger to many of the horror stories.
I do believe that education is a priviledge and not a right. However, that is another story for another day.
I tend to shut down when I hear NEA demonized. I am no great fan of NEA but I also know that in this state, it is fairly irrelevant. It has no power and certainly does not set policy. Therefore, even bringing it into conversation seems pointless to me.
You are correct. I did insert the word ‘financially,’ because I assumed you meant financially. My mistake. I still do not see how schools profit in any way from having to educate illegal aliens.
I do not see Plyler as an option. I do not see NCLB as an option. Right now Fairfax County has shown the nads to challenge one component of testing ESOL students. It will be interesting to see how that pans out. On the other hand, people on this blog continually cry ‘rule of law.’ I simply do not feel that Prince William County Schools can defy federal law and to advocate doing so, as some have, is pure hypocrisy.
If NCLB disappeared overnight, and I wish it would, schools might be able to get back to educating rather than teaching material with the goal of passing a criterion referenced test. The schools that need the money to compensate for illegal immigration are not getting any of Mr. Bush’s money so as far as I can tell, the program is unfunded. Money floating around out there in wasteland is not funding of a mandate. When money goes directly into schools rather than into all the beauracracy that props up NCLB, then I will retract my statement.
I don’t think parents and tax payers are up in arms because they don’t know how heavily their schools are being impacted by this disasterous act. The act is full of requirements that can never be met by some schools. It favors everyone but the average and above middle class child. Those who are ultimately paying the bills have their children served last. What’s wrong with this picture?
correction:
I think parents and tax payers are not up in arms because they don’t know how heavily their schools are being impacted by this disasterous act.
Dolph,
So, pointing out how much more it costs to educate an ESL student is some kind of bad rhetoric? I hope you were not directing that comment to me. Remember, even without NCLB, we would still need ESL classes and the increased cost associated with them.
And, the NEA has plenty of power, if it did not, why and how did it get to be so powerful? Who do you think screams the loudest for more money. Have you ever asked a member just what exactly “fully funded” means. Do you think they would ever pin number or just say when kids are getting the best education they can? Of course that means more and more money.
While there are some good public school districts in the Country, there are plenty more that are sorely lacking.
We send our son to private school for that and many other reasons. We simply refuse to put him in a situation where he can possible fail not due to his own shortcomings but because of the system.
Check out the NEA and see for yourself what type of power and influence they have. http://www.nea.org/index.html
Please pardon the sloppy typo on the links. I’ll try again-my mistake was trying to post at 1 AM.
http://www.vdare.com/sailer/070218_child.htm
http://www.nclr.org/section/nclb_funding
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42703-2002Feb7.html
You are most welcome, C of M, and thank you kindly.
Oh mighty Dolph,
Let us all dispatch every radio in our lives to hell, forthwith!
(exept the one in the car. I will hurt anyone who takes off with my car tunes. Plus drive time is often NPR time, as long as none of my kids are in the car. Thats right. A trio who have provided me with plenty of up-to-the-neck first hand contact with schools. One just graduated and the other two are in high school.)
Henceforth, Dolph shall direct our thoughts , tell us what to do and who we must listen to! WE who know jack, we have been awaiting your authoritarian authority ever since Air America went off the air. Oh happy day.
So anyway, here is how this works for me, Dolph. I don’t give a flying fried frijole what or who you listen to. Nor do I care what you read, where you get your news or what kind of salad dressing you use. Neither of us may wish to buy what the other is selling, but the free exchange of ideas is our right and duty.
You are free to pick your agenda, determine your limits and set the bar for yourself. You can take your best shot at me when, as you see it, I fail tow your party line, soften my edge or fail to hit every pertinent issue on the head, but don’t expect me not to shoot back. I do not need your permission or approval.
Making snarky self satisfied imperious remarks about the ease with which you can pick certain individuals out of a crowd speaks of your head more than mine.
I envy as well as admire those locals that are riding this current wave of awareness regarding the illegal aliens. You guys have a fighting chance to assert your right not to be overwhelmed. There are some of us who have been active in the immigration reform movement for many years, for no other reason than it hit our shoreline before yours.
For years we have been told that calling attention to immigration issues only calls attention to our lack of humanity, compassion and tolerance. I have had to face off a ship load of emotional blackmail and manipulation over the issue.
You are now, as many of us have been for years, forced to compete with illegal aliens for jobs as well as the time, attention, recourses and loyalty of law enforcement, elected officials and public schools.
Thanks you, Dolph, for that very informative and mannerly post.
I appreciate the time you spent detailing your points. Lots to mull over … I have no doubt that we could spend hours debating the finer points … but I am far more strident regarding the running of schools!
Alas, I’ve got a house full of visiting family, so the mulling will have to wait.
Thanks again.