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Kaine’s Free Day Care Plan For Illegals
By Greg L | 21 August 2007 | Illegal Aliens, Virginia Politics | 102 Comments
There’s something very curious about Governor Kaine’s revised proposal to establish a pre-K program for children of lower income families. By removing all but “the neediest” from this proposal, the actual effect of this program will be to focus on providing free daycare for four year olds whose parents are illegal aliens. Tim Kaine and the Democrat Party are launching an effort that essentially institutionalizes free day care for illegal aliens, under the guise of an anti-poverty program. Why should Virginia taxpayers be forced to swallow a big government entitlement program that benefits illegals from Guatemala to the detriment of tax payers from Gainesville?
From the Virginia Pilot:
“As for cost, Kaine lessened that problem by leaving out free pre-K for the middle and upper classes, something he committed to during his 2005 campaign. A full-scale endeavor might have cost upward of $300 million annually. Instead, Kaine’s plan adds about $75 million annually That’s a far more palatable sum, although it may still come under fire from lawmakers nervous about a downdraft in revenue.”
Since the school system is the one place where current law requires that benefits be provided regardless of immigration status, putting this program in place as a part of the public school system, rather than under the auspices of some other program, makes it the perfect place deliver focused benefits to illegal aliens. State law prevents taxpayer funds from being used to support illegal aliens, but because of the Supreme Court’s 1982 Plyer v. Doe decision, the public schools provide about the only available exception to this rule. Eliminating upper and middle class families from benefiting in the program, for supposedly “fiscal restraint” or “anti-poverty” reasons, ensures that the proportion of those served who are illegal aliens is maximized. If you were going to craft a program in Virginia to support the continued presence of illegal aliens, it would be difficult to do better than this.
At the same time Governor Kaine is resisting calls to enter into the Section 287(g) Program, which would ensure that criminal illegal aliens are deported after they have completed their sentence rather than being released back into our communities. At the same time that the Virginia Sex Offender Registry likely lists hundreds of persons who could be eligible for deportation, and who instead are living among us, Governor Kaine wants to ensure that the four year old children of illegal aliens are provided free day care at taxpayer expense.
I’d say he has his priorities wrong. What’s going to benefit Virginian families more — free day care for illegal aliens, or deporting convicted sex offenders?
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My blood is boiling. Additionally, if pre-K has any positive effect on development at all, how can anyone conscionably choose to provide it for one sub-class (poor people) and not everyone else’s children?
Meanwhile tax payers can only claim up to 3k a yr for day care.
Yes that is an unfair burn. It’s enough in much of the country, but not around here.
No kidding, My girls are teenagers but my neighbor and I were discussing it over the weekend. She pays 125 a week for her 3yr old ( private daycare but legal) and she can only claim 3k….
IT SEEMS THE PEOPLE THAT DO THE RIGHT THING GET PENALIZED FOR EVERYTHING.
I am so sick of the Sh##
“how can anyone conscionably choose to provide it for one sub-class (poor people) and not everyone else’s children”
Generally, the kids of middle and upper income parents don’t “need” Pre-K. They have active, involved parents who have books in the home, the ability to read, don’t spend most of their time with their brains addled by drugs, take their kids to museums and zoos, and anywhere in general past the end of their street.
I agree that it’s not “right”, but something has to be done with these kids & their brains or else they will end up the giant mess that is their parents.
I pay $150 a week for childcare and I’m a LEGAL resident with a middle class white collar job. Where is MY free day care??????? I’m so sick of entitlements for these law breakers and free loaders. These people are sucking the life out of all of us to their own benefit and we get NOTHING in return.
I will play the devil’s advocate on this one. Other than who is footing the bill, how does this program differ from the traditional federal headstart program? If NCLB mandates that by 2014, 100% of the students will pass state tests, someone had better try to do something because it ain’t gonna happen. (in fairness, it wouldn’t come close to happening if you removed the illegal component either)
Very few people have any idea what it is like to attempt to educate economically deprived kids. Many many years ago I taught headstart for a summer. OMG. I had kids who were scared of toilets because they had never seen one before. 4-5 years old who didn’t know colors, proper bathroom words, how to wash their hands, how to use forks and spoons, the list goes on and on. This was long before the days of hispanic kids.
Half of the job really was about basic social skills that somehow had not been taught to the youngsters at home. Probably their parents didn’t have them either. Not all the headstart kids were as socially deprived as some, but you really do have to get basic cultural/social skills up to par before learning can take place.
This job was not in a third world country. It was down in the northern neck of Virginia, in Westmoreland County, birthplace of George Washington. No amount of pre-school or headstart will totally level the playing field for these kids but if you can take the roughest of edges off, you are miles ahead.
If we must educate all kids, and money is tight, then by all means put the most economically deprived kids into the program. Education systems are stuck with them anyway, so the more that can be done to civilize, the better off all of us will be.
http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/news/newsbyid.asp?id=74193&cat=Today
You will love this. You need to scroll down once the page loads.
It’s arrogant to think that a little pre-K program can civilize these lumpenproletarian children. The genetics are simply not there . Also, it is not my job to provide what these parents can’t or won’t. What’s going on with all this socialism in Virginia?
Is every anti-poverty program in existence today designed to benefit illegals only? Come on and get a grip! 99% of the people who frequent this blog are anti-illegal but some of you see the bogeyman in every government decision or proposal. I know you folks are more intelligent than that and don’t need to make stuff up to get your point across. We all have enough evidence to beat the anti-illegal drum; we don’t need to search for it under every rock.
What we are talking about here is building upon the numerous pre-k programs that exist in the state including Head Start, church based programs, home schooling, and other state-funded programs.
There are kids who are currently eligible for the above programs but who can’t afford the current fees and Kaine wants to expand access to the poor, working poor, and lower middle-class who don’t meet the income requirements. Why is this a bad idea? Not everyone in these groups is an illegal. There are many white folks who fit that description; maybe not in your neighborhoods but they do exist believe it or not.
Targeted anti-poverty programs are good and benefit the economy and our society in the long-term. Many members of the Republican majority in the House agree and with Kaine reducing the scope of the program it is very likely this will pass.
And for all of you who are bitching that the government doesn’t pick up your daycare costs; you should be ashamed of yourselves. Maybe you would like it better if you lost your jobs, homes, cars, and everything else you value in order to take advantage of a program like this.
At least you make enough money to take advantage of the $3k tax deduction. I’m sure every person who needs head start or other government funded education programs would trade places with you in a second.
Matt
“And for all of you who are bitching that the government doesn’t pick up your daycare costs; you should be ashamed of yourselves said”
Tha most certainly was not my point. I hate anyone abusing the system. Legal or not. IT JUST STINGS more that the illegals get benefits PERIOD.
Dolph made a good point and brought a new prospective to the table.
Matt, it is a classic “loophole” to provide these “benefits” to those that do not have to show proof of legality. This is what people are mad about. Benefits should be for legal taxpaying citizens. Not illegals. There are way too many loopholes that need to be closed. This is just another loophole being added to the plethora of others.
Dolph-
I understand your reasoning about pre-k, but once again it is US citizens picking up the tab for those who have no right to be here in the first place.
That is what has most American’s upset. The costs associated with illegal aliens.
BTW- If we didn’t have to spend money on them, how many more American children would be help through this program?
Matt–it doesn’t matter who wants to change places with me. The way to do it, though, is to stop being a parasite and start making efforts to get yourself off the public dole. By the way, there’s nothing in our constitution about government schools and certainly nothing about pre-school. Take care of your own toddlers. I did.
It’s called “creeping socialism”.
I don’t think anyone, at least on this blog, would argue that any government funding going to illegals is abhorrent. Sure there are loopholes; any program whether government, religious, or other, will have loopholes because they are created by people. But just because we need to fix those loopholes doesn’t mean we can’t do that while providing a valuable service to those who are in need. By doing both, we improve our economy, society, and the opportunities for all citizens.
Maureen,
I don’t disagree with you. I just don’t know what you do about it. It seems to me that it is a ‘pay me now or pay me later’ situation. The root cause of the problem is not a pre-k program but our immigration policy (or lack thereof) in the first place. The problem is compounded by the sanctions, regulations and requirements put on schools by the federal govt.
If there is a student sub-population that by law, must be educated, it seems to me that the most practical thing to do is headstart them so that they at least semi fit in a normal classroom. Some will, some wont.
When I address situations involving education, I tend to put ethnic/racial blinders on because to do otherwise does me no good. Nothing I can do about it anyway.
Um, this isn’t “daycare.” It’s pre-K schooling, much in the vein of Headstart. The idea behind it is that starting kids earlier in school increases their chance of success later in life and their ability to contribute positively to society. Most upper- and middle-income families are already paying to put their children in preschool (not daycare, preSCHOOL) and are able to provide an environment at home that foster development. While it would be great to have this program extended across the board to all families at all income levels, I’m sure the headline would then be something like “Kaine Plan Pays for Millionaire Kids Preschool.”
Second, I’m beginning to sense that every possible issue presented on this blog will be skewed in someway towards illegal immigration. Property taxes? Illegals have depressed property values. Pre-K program? Will entice illegals to come to Virginia. Martians land? Even more illegal aliens we have to worry about. Don Quixote thought the windmills were giants. It seems that on this blog every windmill is an illegal alien coming to get us. Maybe we should learn the lesson of Don Quixote and stop tilting at windmills. Sometimes they’re just windmills.
Kaine’s program will be a great benefit to many in Virginia who can trace their ancestry back several generations to the same county if not the same plot of land within the Commonwealth. It will give those in the rural sections of the state a needed boost in the availability of educational programs and will give the poorest in the more urban centers a leg up.
On another blog post, Greg L questions how a lawsuit can be brought against the BOCS resolution when no one can claim any harm done at this point since the resolution hasn’t even been implemented. Yet, here is a a proposed program and already people are lining up so slam it because “illegals” are taking advantage of it. Why don’t we save the venom for something that really mattes and stop tilting at windmills.
“Also, it is not my job to provide what these parents can’t or won’t.”
One way or the other you WILL pay for what their parents don’t provide. It’s just that you might be paying for at 25K a year to house them in a prison.
I actually have to agree with Dolph and others in this thread, this is a way to help stave off possibly worse outcomes in the future. A lot of these anchor children are U.S. citizens, and I feel denying them at a chance of a future because of their parents actions might be unfairly punishing them. Anything we can do to keep these kids from identifying with gangs, drugs use etc. is a good thing. It is much better to try to make them productive members of society. These children are going to stay citizens no matter what we say or do. Any efforts should be put forth to deal with those who are illegal and to try to deal with things we can do something about.
Looks like the Gov has some pretty cunning illegal alien promoters advising him.
The impact of illegal aliens is a lot more clearly demonstrated than the long-term benefits of these pre-K programs, which statistically disappear by the time these children enter middle school. Why would we spend real money for illusory benefits, which will be provided to illegal aliens, when we could instead invest that money in deporting convicted sex offenders?
Kaine’s proposed taxpayer-funded largesse is irresponsible.
This is ridiculous.
Is this public education or daycare?
If it’s public education it should be available to all economic classes or no economic classes.
Please stop lecturing about how middle and upper income families can afford to send their kids to private pre-school. Of course they can. And they can afford to send their kids to private elementary school, private middle school, private high and private colleges.
Maybe we should only offer free oublic education to poor families AT ALL EDUCATIONAL LEVELS.
That would be fair, right?
It’s the middle and upper income people who PAY ALL THE TAXES.
That’s why it’s not fair.
That’s why public schools allow students of all economic backgrounds to attend.
So, like I said before, is this day care or education?
And just how is establishing “pre-K” for the four year old children of illegal aliens going to reduce criminal gang participation by teenagers? Has anyone demonstrated any credible link between preschool programs and gang participation? I don’t think so.
Since we began Head Start, gang participation has skyrocketed. Notwithstanding the maxim that correlation does not imply causality, we might be able to make a case that pre-K programs actually contribute to gang participation, although I’m certain other factors are responsible, such as Home Schooling, stay-at-home mothers, and having a father in the home.
Benefits of any kind to illegals = incentives to come here illegally. Once the benefits are cut, the illegals will move on (hopefully) back to their homelands that they are loyal to so that they can attempt to institute change there.
Actually, Greg L, Headstart is severely underfunded and the number of slots available in Headstart in no way meets the demands of those eligible. Thus, one cannot posit that Headstart has done little, if anything.
Second, please show me where you are getting the data on the efficacy of pre-K programs diminishing by the time students reach middle school. If these is strong data to back that position, then this program should be fought on those grounds.
Rather than focusing like a laser on illegals once again bilking the system, I think it would be easier to fight the proposed “taxpayer-funded largesse” on the grounds that the program would not produce the results it claims.
And I think you’d find your other factors (stable family life, resources at home, etc.) have far more of a bearing on who gang membership than whether or not a child participated in Headstart.
Yes. Greg is absolutely correct. Now days we have all sorts of programs to help the kids. What do we have to show for it? Bad results. Obviously these programs aren’t working!
Just saying…look at the drop out rates!
God Bless homeschooling!
Patriot:
If this were a pre-K program specifically targeted at illegal aliens, I would share your venom. However, this is a program targeted at those in specific economic brackets. The assumption is being made that this will include children of illegal immigrants. My understanding of Kaine’s proposed program is that is will not be run through the public school system, but rather will use vouchers to give access to private preschools and other such institutions. Headstart would continue to operate out of the schools, but Kaine’s program is intended to encompass those Headstart leaves behind. If not run under the auspices of the public school system, would this program fall under the constraints of Plyer v. Doe?
Rather than relying on the brief clip from the Virginia Pilot, I would suggest going to the source:
http://www.governor.virginia.gov/MediaRelations/NewsReleases/viewRelease.cfm?id=479
Bottom line - there is a finite number of kids that this program can benefit. Like the section 8 HUD programs, how many citizens will be denied because the program is saturated with illegal aliens ?
Equal protecton under the law does not apply to only the poor. Warren Buffet does need Social Security, but he is entilted to it..
If I followed the line of logic presented here by some of you, then I would have to assume you advocate closing all public schools to prevent children of illegal aliens from benefitting. This amounts to throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
I sincerely hope that is not what is being advocated.
Buffet *does not*
Patriot:
Please state your source for drop-out rates indicating a decline in our schools.
Further, the current drop-out rates prove nothing in terms of the efficacy of pre-K education. If anything, they support the need for earlier intervention.
Also, last I looked at PWCS drop-out rates, they had actually been improving steadily as had the number of students going on to higher education after graduation. In fact, looking at the Washington Area Boards of Education Guide for 2006 (most recent I could find), the drop out rate in Prince William was 2%. According to the Institute for Educational Statistics (part of the US Department of Education), the national average rate has hovered around 4% for the last decade, and the Virginia average is has been around 3%. Clearly, the PWCS rate cannot, then, be considered an indicator of anything negative.
Finally, home schooling is not for everyone. For home schooling to be effective, the person doing the teaching must have the knowledge and resources available. If the parent or education provider is under educated, then you can only imagine what the results of home schooling would be. So, while home schooling may be an option for some, it is certainly not a panacea.
There is nothing wrong with more education. The problem is, the children of illegal aliens are usually in a family that is close to illiteracy and therefore it is very hard for them to get the support that good education needs to reach fruition. Without parents taking a direct hand in education, shutting the damn idiot box off, limiting internet time and chosing meanignful programming for their children, there is nothing that additional education can do. There has to be a support structure from “cradle to grave” and that is just not the case with these people, who often would like to see their children study but can do very little to help them.
The bigger problem here is: do we have the resources to offer education to everyone? If the infrastructure is not sufficient and people are not all equally contributing to its upgrade and maintenance, every child will suffer. As it is the schools are so strapped that often books are not available and forget about art supplies. Where did art and music go anyway? But I digress. Let’s make sure that we can give legals and citizens a good education first and give assistance to other when we can and in a manner that does not take the whole system down a few notches.
Greg L: I’ve worked in law enforcement in my past life and have seen kids much younger than teens in the gang life. If you think it takes that long you are sadly mistaken. I have seen kids as young as 6 to 7 being recruited for duties because their age keep them from getting into serious trouble. I knew of one kids who was abandoned at age 7, he lived on the street committing crimes to survive until age 16 when he committed murder and was sentenced as an adult.
It was one of the worst cases of societal neglect I have ever seen. These programs do not work for everyone, but kids have come from broken homes, neglectful parents etc. and have become productive members of society. I usually agree with what you say here, but this time I don’t.
Plenty of people who have come from absolutely nothing have worked hard and have become successful adults. They got little help from their parents, had no money. About the only thing they had was self determination.
I am not ready to give up on kids in general just because some of them are jerks, their parents are criminals, they are poor, and all the other factors that contribute to non success in this country.
Greg is correct–no long term benefits to HeadStart can be demonstrated. HeadStart is basically a feelgood program. The education industry of course loves anything that will increase their power. HeadStart is part of the “Great Society”, LBJ’s socialism. After trillions of dollars thrown away for these idiotic programs, we still have the underclass. What does this tell you?
to Disgusted: You said societal neglect. Didn’t you mean parental or familial neglect? Think about it.
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but has anyone here even provided statistics to prove that this program will primarily benefit illegal aliens? Certiainly a high precentage of the illegal population will benefit from this…but that’s an entirely different concept than the notion that the primary beneficiaries will be illegal immigrants.
The is a state program is it not? Presumably MOST of VA does not have high percentages of the population that are undocumented.
This whole argument is ridiculous. Seems to me highly likely that low-income Virginians will be the one’s who most benefit from such a program.
Is this the new trend? Kill all progressive social programs aimed at helping the poor by claiming that it will aid illegal immigrants becuase so many of them are poor? So you’re advocating for not helping the poor becuase we might accidentally help some illegal immigrants along the way?
Good lord, that’s the most wrong-headed logic I’ve ever seen. It’s analogous to committing suicide to rid yourself of a parasite. How stupid.
But Dolph
The ones who are intelligent and resolute do not usually need additional education. Poverty does not make you stupid. We are talking about education, not intelligence. Remember the founder of Wendy’s? He was an adopted child, with horrible emotional scars and shyness and did not make it out of high school. Look at what he achieved. And he was a wonderful man.
Education is most needed for those people who do not possess the resolve and the intelligence to make it on their own.
I have some personal experience with public education. From what I’ve seen, for most people that this pre-k program is supposed to benefit, K-12 is little more than a daycare for them anyways.
fed up…
Say what? “The ones who are intelligent and resolute do not usually need additional education. ” and “Education is most needed for those people who do not possess the resolve and the intelligence to make it on their own.”
So are you suggesting that rather than going to med school you’d prefer your doctor just pick up a book? Afterall, if he’s smart, what’s a little education going to do for him?
Just Saying
I did not say that intelligent poople do not need education. I said that they can make it without education, which was in response to Dolph’s writing.
Some people can make it without education. Abe Lincoln seems to spring to mind.
Having said that, poverty impacts children in a way that is difficult for middle class people to understand. Nutritional needs are often neglected. Hunger is one thing. Brain development and overall growth is another. Language skills are often poorly developed. Fine motor skills are under-developed in some children. How much longer does it take to learn to use scissors if you have never seen a pair of scissors, much less held a pair?
Children who go to these types of programs get a ‘head start’ so hopefully they won’t have to spend all their time catching up. No, it isnt a panacea for all kids. However, I do scoff at the rhetoric that has tried to link up cause and effect when none exists.
Children living in poverty, especially long term, life-style poverty, don’t have a very good prognosis to start with. If we can increase the odds for their success just a little bit, I feel it is worthwhile. Try seeing these kids as special needs kids, because they really are.
The fact that illegals may be included is only a small part of my problem with government pre school. There is no hard data to prove that pre K works all the way to graduation. This is how programs like this alway start, helping out less fortunate kids, but Kaine would love to have it for all children. Shouldn’t there be some finite proof showing without doubt that children who attend “government funded” preschool do better than kids who don’t. I’m afraid the government entering into the preschool world is just going to muck it up with all kinds of rules and regulations.
The first simple requirement will be that pre school teachers will have to have education degrees, then the teacher’s unions will get involved in the pay issue. Private preschool tuition will rise and eventually they’ll move the 4 yr olds right into our overcrowded schools and stick them into trailers. Then we’ll have to provide bus service and potty training service and of course, we’ll have to provide snack and lunch because these kids don’t get a hot meal at home. The next step will be ALL DAY preschool because they will say 3 hours just isn’t enough time to educate the kids and it is confusing for the kids to go from school to daycare. Does it sound familiar? One of the major reasons listed for implementing all day kindergarten is that 5 yr olds have problems transitioning from the half day kinder. to the half day of day care so all day kindergarten takes care of that transitioning problem. So if they say switching places of care isn’t good for 5 yr olds, then you can be darn sure, they’ll say that for 4 yr olds. All of the sudden, this little program to help the less fortunate whose mommies don’t read to them has turned into a giant government funded daycare system that will start at 4 yrs instead of 5 yrs. When has government ever interfered with something like this and had it turn out okay?
I don’t want my tax dollars paying for my 5 children’s preschool. I don’t want your tax dollars paying for my children’s preschool. I paid for all my children to attend a church preschool at a reasonable price. Some of their teachers had degrees and some didn’t. Some thought of it as a career and others were just doing it because they had school age children and wanted to be home in the afternoons. They were mostly women who loved working with children and they did an excellent job teaching colors, letters, etc. a couple days a week.
State preschool is going to be a huge monster on our backs just like most programs started with good intentions.
Hey Fed Up -
You wrote, “The problem is, the children of illegal aliens are usually in a family that is close to illiteracy and therefore it is very hard for them to get the support that good education needs to reach fruition. Without parents taking a direct hand in education, shutting the damn idiot box off, limiting internet time and chosing meanignful programming for their children, there is nothing that additional education can do.”.
How much internet time could illiterates possibly be logging?
Hey Fairfax Resident -
It seems, in your case, quite a bit!
Benefits = Incentives. This is clearly a loophole that will (not may) be taken advantage of. How many legal taxpaying parents that actually need the benefits will be denied because a lawbreaker’s child will take the slot. Get real people! Cut the benefits. Prove legality. What is so hard about this.
I wish we had a line item veto for where all our taxes go. We don’t. More’s the pity. I can name a few things right off the bat that I wouldn’t contribute to.
I also see nothing wrong with professional negotiations over teacher salary. Teachers should be paid well, the same as other professionals.
My daughter went to private pre-school. It was an excellent program. My son went to a county pre-school because he had some hearing issues that have since been resolved. It was an even better program.
I cannot be a nay-sayer about the proposed pre-school program for Virginia. I accept that not everyone can afford pre-school. I obviously think it is a valuable experience for children or I would not have sent mine.
From my own experiences with headstart, I know that there are children, living in poverty, who simply are not ready to learn because they lack the most fundamental skills required for learning to take place. If getting them in the school setting a little early improves their readiness for kindergarten and first grade, then I support whatever efforts Virginia makes towards this goal.
Just saying…you can perform a google on the drop out rates. It is everywhere. You need more schooling on this issue.
I support benefits for legal taxpaying citizens and their children. We need the slots that would be given to illegals to be given to those who are legal. Why is this so hard for everyone to understand? Once illegals are deported, if they choose to come back legally, then they might be in a position to get benefits the right way (as long as they can demonstrate they will not live off of those benefits for the rest of their lives).
One other thing…liberal smarty people….how can the economic “need” of illegals be verified (to make sure that they truly are in need) if they don’t have to provide legal documentation? How do we know what they are providing is valid?
I see plenty of people rolling around in luxury SUVs, carting around 5 kids, paying for food with foodstamps, and sending tons of money back to the homeland???????? Are they truly in need? Why do they have an Eddie Bauer Expedition?
Preschool for underprivileged children gives them an opportunity to aquire what educators refer to as background knowledge. Students from below poverty level homes often arrive at school with limited vocab, unable to count by rote, no knowlege of colors, minimal fine motor skills, and minimal to no exposure to print etc. This situation is not only found in immigrant populations, but across all races/cultures. I had a student who was not from an immigrant family hold up a pencil and ask “What’s this thing?” Another reason there is such a push for preschool is because curriculum for K has changed dramatically. During the year in K, students have to learn letters, letter sounds, read simple sentences, memorize sight words, write sentences, identify words in a sentence, recognise coins and know their amounts, create and interpret graphs, add and subtract, verbalize the difference between a map and a globe, count by 2’s, 5’s, 10’s, etc. There is no K SOL for color recognition, pencil grip, cutting skills or knowing how to look at a book. It is assumed that students already possess that information prior to entering K. Sadly, many, too many, do not. So students who enter K knowing what a cow is, or that red is not called “blood”, or are able to at least recognize their name in print are better prepared than students who have had minimal exposure. Whether it was because their parents took the time to talk to them, and/or because they went to some sort of pre-school program, students with background knowledge struggle less to learn the concepts required now in K.
We do not need another education boondoggle. It’s just wasting more of our tax dollars. In my opinion any preschool kid who doesn’t know colors or how to count probably has inherent sub-normal intelligence. Don’t these kids watch Sesame Street? Again, these programs are designed to employ “educators” and to make liberals feel good. They offer no benefit to society.
Where does it stop? Soon we’ll need to provide 3 yr old preschool so the underprivileged children arrive at 4 year old pre K ready to learn. They’ll claim that it is better to start reading at 4 so they need preparation at age 3 with beginning sounds.
Then we’ll hear that if they are having problems with 3 yr olds because “some less fortunate” children are arriving not potty trained and still eating with their fingers and not knowing how to share. So we’ll have universal 2 yr old preschool to set them up with the beginning skills they’ll need for 3 yr old school.
At what point will they just be jerking them out of the womb because the government thinks they can do a better job than mommy? What if it turns out that spending those first 3 years at home with mommy, whether she’s poor or rich, is better than spending it with the government? Parents aren’t perfect, but if we go by that lack of perfection, there is always going to be a reason for government to raise our children instead of parents raising children. We can provide help, but it absolutely doesn’t have to be universal help.
I’m not against headstart at all, or possibly even expanding the income level that headstart does cover. But we must have concrete data all the way to graduation that shows that those programs work and are not a waste of money. And I’m totally 100% against UNIVERSAL pre school.
anon I do agree…as do many teachers…where does it stop? How much more info must we cram into small children’s heads? For what purpose? Where is the devel appropriateness? How much will they actually retain? Education is now about memorizing facts, regurgitating them for the test, and flushing them out of the brain. NCLB puts the pressure on the school systems who then put it on the principal, who sends it to the teacher, who hands it to the student. Our education system today is creating multiple choice taking phenoms, who actually learn little, especially where non-spiraling curriculums ( ie. social studies) are concerned. NCLB has sucked all the fun out of teaching and learning….it’s all about competition, the bottom line. There are actually 3yr old programs that teach letter recognition.. ACK! Though I don’t agree with monticup that a preschooler who does not know colors has sub-normal intelligence, I question all the time why is it necessary that my students must know this fact NOW in their lives. Will the world actually implode if they don’t learn this right now? What would Alfie Kohn say? Google him…he’s so anti-testing, early preschool etc.
Shocked that Dolph would support yet another program that benefits illegals. Since Timmy Kaine ran in support of illegals I guess it is not surprise to him change his program to where it benefits illegals the most. Oh, Dolph you can hide behind your mealy mouthed excuses. Just blame the Feds for a lack of immigration enforcement. Meanwhile as the “flood” gets worse, we will just move up to the roof.
Funny how these same folks who hate NCLB, love theses types of feel good stories. Yet, middle class students are just supposed to get it. And, aren’t’ we really talking about how low income parents fail at their jobs? Should we really believe that every poor kid needs help and every middle class and rich kid does not?
This type of program is yet another incentive for illegals to come here and stay. Also, it gets people hooked on Government programs which of course the Dems love. The Dems hope these children will grow up sucking off the Fed teet will be so in love with the Dems they will vote for them. Of course once these types of programs are established it is very difficult to end them, since the Dems will scream and yell the GOP is against children, etc.
Also to Had to say… Umm, of course this blog is mostly about illegals. Yes, illegals to do depress property values, which depresses real estate taxes, which leads to increases in property tax rates, which leads to less money to be able to spend on other items, which leads to a down turn in the economy.
When my daughter was young I was a struggling single parent, but she first attended preschool when she was 3…I managed somehow. It’s most often a matter of priorities…that big SUV or minivan (as an example) or your child’s welfare. The most important thing to me was that she was not simply warehoused rather than stimulated when I was unable to be with her because I had to work. If a parent’s priorities are right, anything can be managed with a little self-sacrifice. The main point, however, is that my child WANTED desperately to learn and I wanted desperately to provide that for her…not all children are ready for that.
The “nanny state” mentality to which Libertarians often refer is becoming all too real. I DID/DO NOT WANT THE GOVERNMENT SOCIALIZING MY CHILD…or their children. Even as a struggling Mom, I would have adamantly opposed this pre-school plan. I believe that folks are losing perspective on this debate by focusing on the potential illegal alien element here…what’s important in the debate is the children.
As I read the string of comments here, I have come upon a question that I wonder has an answer. My late husband came here at the age of 7 from the Ukraine. His parents were both illiterate in both their native tongue as well as American. His mother never learned English, she could not read or write, nor could his father. There were 4 children in his family as well as a cousin and an uncle who came over. They lived in a tenement in the lower East side of New York City. My husband graduated from Columbia University with a degree in Electrical engineering and then got a masters and almost had his phd from Syracuse university. His cousin graduated from MIT in mathematics. His brother graduated from NYU in engineering. His sister married a millionaire. How did this happen? They were illiterate immigrants, had no advantages, never recieved welfare, his father pushed a wheelbarrow and paid for his children’s education. They never got any help and yet they succeeded. What is wrong with this picture? Would they have been better off with welfare and Head Start and all the other stuff that the poor seem to need? Oh and they were here legally and waited in a camp in Germany before they could get a sponsor to come here. I think we are creating a culture of people who have no faith in themselves or what they can accomplish. And also great masters who want to “help” them stay on the bottom. I don’t have time to go on about this, but human beings, no matter where they come from can become something, if we let them. But if we always give the idea that they are so lacking that nothing but help and more help must be given them, we destroy their sense of self. Unfortunately, they are eager to go along with this. Where are their leaders, who tell them to stand up and become something? I really feel that people who want to “help” really have a deep seated arrogance against the poor and feel that they are less than they are. I think if people were given the message that they can contribute and be someone, they could be. My father in law proudly pushed a wheelbarrow at demolition sites to earn money to support his family. His head was held up and though he didn’t understand much of what his children knew, he was proud that they had done it. I am proud of him and I look up to him. I did not come from a poor illiterate family, but I see Eliash Prymak as a great man and I always will. I think more needs to be done about making people understand that they need to stand up as human beings and futher more that they can. Illegal aliens, have only one thing that I admire, they are trying to benefit their families, the difference is that they are taking what they have no right to and are unwilling to pay the price and stand in line. Sorry but this drives me nuts!
Patriot:
Obviously you have a problem reading things more than one line long.
You said:”Just saying…you can perform a google on the drop out rates. It is everywhere. You need more schooling on this issue.:
If you had read my WHOLE response, you would have seen that I quoted the numbers for PWCS drop-out rates (which are low).
You respond with a snarky one liner.
I have found that you are a blow hard who responds to any questioning of your “facts” by attacking the person who asked the question. I simply asked what you based your statement on given the fact the PWCS drop out rates are DECLINING and are already below the state and national average.
Maybe you should try a little more schooling on civil discourse and how to play nicely with others.
Nancy,
You question is an easy one to answer. At one time people relied on themselves rather then the Government to help them out. Did some people fall by the wayside, no question, but overall society did not look toward the Federal Government for answers to every problem.
Another issue that has changed is how we treat kids, illegal or not. We simply do not allow them to be kids, we shelter them and protect them from rejection, failure, etc. Too many kids grow up with a false sense of self respect.
Your husband’s family came here and worked hard, and it paid off.
Nancy,
I don’t know the answer to that question. What makes some people successful and others failures? Genetics? Self-determination? Life circumstances? Parenting? Parental expectations? What makes a thoroughbred?
My only experience with early childhood education was that Headstart summer. For the record, most of the kids I taught were poor, country black kids. A few came to the program ready to learn. Many needed a lot of help with what I would consider basic skills such as were listed by ateacher. A few were terrified of modern conveniences like toilets and electric fans. This was many years ago, shortly after desegregation.
The curriculum in Virginia, today, is far more detailed and rigorous in many respects, than it was back then. Only a few of the kids I had that summer would have been able to hit the ground running and master the concepts and skills enumberated in ateacher’s post.
I still say, it is pay me now or pay me later. The status quo is that all students will be educated by the jurisdiction in which they reside. I don’t see that changing. This country will always have public schools. The reality is, economically deprived kids will spend 13 years of their life in public schools, unless they drop out. What do we do with them? No one has yet offered up an alternative solution.
COM,
Generally I ignore you because you are rude and demeaning. However, I am going to respond to you tonight because the subject is so important to me.
I have never ever suggested that middle class or rich kids be ignored in school and left to get it on their own. I vehemently disapprove of that philosophy.
The reason I have such distain for the No Child Left Behind Act is that it caters to all the special sub-groups and leaves the average and above kids out of the picture. Entire schools now operate around ensuring that special ed kids, economically disadvantaged kids, Hispanic and other minorities, and ESOL kids master objectives in order to pass the state SOL tests to appease NCLB.
I will not address this issue with you again. My mealy mouth will just call you a liar if you quote me as saying anything other than what I have said on the 2 above topics.
There was a kid on Fox 5 tonight who defies the stereotype:
http://www.myfoxdc.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=4132362&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.2.1
pre-k or daycare for poor children is good
but did you know that if their parents are illegal that mean they are working here illegally,
they get half of their income cash+the cash from their roomates=they are not poor but their kids will be qualified for free education+wic+medicaire+……….
weak up people,illegals are realy smart
Many of you might want to know the salary of your school superintendant. Then you would really have a reason to fire off! Especially since he is appointed and not an elected official. Half of his salary could pay for alot of books, desks, computers, etc.
legalinmanassas said on 22 Aug 2007 at 1:44 am:
“weak up people,illegals are realy smart”
Apparently smarter than you.
correction above
WAKE UP people,illegals are smart.
why are you mad anon?
be smart and get the point not looking for my mistakes.
Compare Dr. Walt’s salary to the salary of an average teacher. It seems disgustingly high and one would think he would be embarrassed to accept his paycheck, especially when the budget is so tight.
The flip side of this scenario is that he is the CEO of an institution with thousands of employees which serve approximately 72,000 ‘customers,’ in a highly competitive area. When viewed from this perspective, his salary and benefits package are a pretty cheap piece of change.
No conclusions here other than the business model which is often misapplied to educational institutions probably will never work. Just an observation.
Dolph,
Seems like this program is exactly the same as the NCLB program. It caters to a specific sub set of children- mostly poor and I bet mostly minority.
I never said you had something against middle class students, I said that in the context of why this program is bad. Because it does ignore the average student.
Your stance of pay now or pay later is a huge cop out as well. Why not weed out those illegals now, so that we will not only have to pay for them now, but also avoid paying for them later. But, lets not rock the boat, and continue to give incentive to illegals. Gee, and you wonder why folks label you a supporter of illegals.
Actually, COM, NCLB doesn’t “cater” to anyone. It measures a schools performance based on a set of test and standards. The problem with NCLB is not in the measuring, but in the tests and the performance metrics required to make “adequate yearly progress” (AYP). Schools must meet certain thresholds for all students and for specific subsets of students or they lose lots of $$. So, in order to appear to be meeting AYP goals, teachers are forced to teach to the test and focus their energies on those groups not quite making it yet. In and of itself, this is not necessarily bad. After all, those performing poorly should get some sort of extra help. The only problem is that this often comes at the expense of the highest performers. Everything about NCLB is about getting everyone above the line on the graph. What no one cares about is what happens to those already above the line on the graph.
Also, the “rules” for NCLB are unfairly stacked against schools with high ESOL and special education populations. Students must take the tests for their grade level (by age), not their grade level by achievement. Learning disabled students who struggle with reading, for instance, may have to take a grade level test that is above their current reading ability. ESOL students are made to take the English test even though they know, the teachers know, the system knows, they can’t pass it. Yet, those scores are used as part of the overall grade card for the school.
On the flip side, Kaine’s program is a voluntary program that extends pre-K education to a group typically underserved and severely lacking in the basic constructs that other children have when they enter Kindergarten.
Monticup:
Actually you are incorrect. Several long-term, longitudinal studies have shown both short- and long-term benefits and performance improvements for children who were part of the Head Start program. For example, white students who attended Head Start are more likely to complete high school and attend college than their peers who did not and children who attended Head Start are less likely to be arrested and booked than their siblings and peers who did not. See http://www.econ.ucla.edu/people/papers/Currie/Currie139.pdf for more on this research. This doesn’t even address short-term benefits such as improved test scores, better classroom behavior, and improved school attendance (all of which have also been reported in Head Start studies). So, the claim that there are no demonstrable benefits to having Head Start is just, while, wrong.
Just saying, good explanation. I erroneously said NCLB caters also…even knowing better. I was attempting to simplify the concept as much as possible. At any rate, thank you for clarifying that point. I am sure you detected my weariness on this subject.
Sadly, I believe if the general population really knew the nuts and bolts of NCLB, they would be up in arms over many of the components of this omnibus legislation. Here, it seems that some folks cannot get past ‘children of illegals getting a free education’ to learn what is really going on. NCLB is up for renewal this year. It will fly right under the radar, once again duping the American public.
http://www.educatorroundtable.org/ is a good place to find out what real educators think about NCLB.
Just saying
The pdf document you have incorporated in your message makes no distinction between whites and latinos or legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. It only extrapolates data on whites and black and underprivileged and not. I think a study which does not address the impact on illegal immigrants and latinos specifically is a study which should not be used as an example in this discussion. I think the discussion is whether this program would unfairly benfit illegal alien children.
If you want to use rule of law as your guiding light to fight the problem of illegal immigration (legal vs. illegal), you are going to have to use rule of law consistently.
I do not know what it will take to make people understand that the LAW says all students will be educated by the jurisdiction in which they reside regardless of status. Surely the learning curve isnt that steep on this concept.
This issue isn’t about how we would like things to be. It is about how things are. For change to take place, legislation will need to be enacted and existing laws will have to be enforced.
Schools do not keep information on status. Why bother. The information would be inaccurate at best. Asking for it would probably be challenged in court. There is really no need to know.
I likened the proposed state pre-school program to the old head start program back in the 60’s. That was MY frame of reference only. Back then it was for kids before they entered school. Much as changed since then.
The program has since expanded to include all early childhood education and includes economically disadvantaged students of all races regardless of status. http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/hsb/
I’m not a fan of NCLB either. Remember it was hatched by Bush and Kennedy. Anything that Kennedy touches is bad for the Country.
Laws can be challenged in Court, and it seems the Supreme Court ruling that everyone points to with regard to teaching illegals might not be so solid after all.
It is funny how the Feds and those that support teaching illegals want that “law” to be upheld, but do not want Federal immigration laws to be followed.
I would go so far as to say that most things Bush or Kennedy touch haven’t been real good for the country. Just my opinion.
I certainly want the federal immigration laws upheld. I want our borders secured. I want a sane immigration policy that is enforced. So I know you weren’t referring to me this time, COM.
Whatever happens with the Supremes happens. If the law about educating children of illegal immigrants changes, then I suppose everyone will adjust. I am sure not going to hold my breath for that to happen though. I think the Miranda ruling would change before that one.
Give the Governor credit, he has proposed a liberal program that no doubt benefits illegals and has cloaked it with words like “faith based initiatives” while giving it the appearance of vouchers (which Democrats have long opposed). His own web site says that the $75M-$125M for the program will cost nothing because the Govenor will “reprioritize” existing programs. Hopefully people will see it for what it really is.
Given the mood of the Country, and the new members of the Court, I would not count out a change in the law if it ever reached the high Court.
I would love it if all of the posters who say that these kids can make it on their own if they just had determination would do one thing, just one thing -
Go spend two weeks in an elementary school in a high poverty community. Spend time with those little ones, and then tell me that even 20% of them will ever be on the same educational level as your children.
BTW, there are no high poverty schools in PWC.
Anon 5:54,
What has changed in the last forty years that now makes it impossible for poor kids to do well in school?
This place must seem like paradise to the illegals. Schools provide their kids free lunch, free breakfast, and free school supplies. Now they will get free Pre-k. The more programs that get added, the more attractive we look to the illegals.
“What has changed in the last forty years that now makes it impossible for poor kids to do well in school?”
Is that a joke?
If not, you really need to get out more.
Anon 8:56,
Not a joke at all. Tell me why poor kids today need more hand holding from the Government then in previous generations?
Let’s put some anchors on the question on the table. Give me a time period. I can work with the 40 years ago bench mark if that is acceptable.
Dolph,
How about any time before the liberal social programs of the 60’s started?
Dolph
$200K salary? That is almost the salary of the President! Get real!
Anonymous,
Check out the salary of the CEO of a company with that many employees in private industry, and get ready to add a zero or two.
Check out the salaries of superintendents in surrounding school systems. Is Dr. Walt’s salary that far off?
I am neither defending or condemning, just comparing and contrasting.
ok, COM, lets go back in time ….pardon the personal touch please. I don’t know your age so I am not sure if you will be able to relate. Question on the table:
“What has changed in the last forty years that now makes it impossible for poor kids to do well in school?”
I am going to reflect on how things were back then, and the changes will be obvious.
I don’t think poor kids necessarily did well in school when I was a kid unless they had a great deal of self determination. I remember a few of the ‘poor’ kids. Hell, I might have even been one of them. My father was a teacher and coach and my mother stayed at home back when I was in elementary school. I lived in a fairly affluent university town in central Virginia.
I don’t really think anyone cared if poor kids did well or not. Unless some teacher took a poor kid under his/her wing out of the goodness of their heart, the poor kid was out of luck. If they misbehaved, they got put out of school for a while. If they didn’t do their work, they failed. If they were not real smart, they failed. I can remember sitting in 5th grade as a 10 year old with 16 year olds. If you were middle class, your parents got your a tutor to help you with your studies. I can recall being very fearful of failing, even though I got good grades. Some of the kids I started out in first grade with never finished school. They just dropped out.
If girls got pregnant, later on in school, they had to quit school. That ended their education. The middle class girls got sent away. The economically deprived girls just quit school. Many of them got married. You could not stay in school if you were pregnant.
There was no special education in public schools. Learning disabilities had not been discovered. If you were retarded, your parents either kept you at home or put you in an institution. That was the practice across the socio-economic board. If you were slow, you were slow. You failed. Most of the poor kids just dropped out as soon as they were allowed to.
I also went to school only with white children. The greatest diversity I ever was exposed to was a couple of Jewish kids, 1 Japanese boy, and some poor kids. I never knew any black children when I was a child growing up in the segregated south. I lived in town and our paths never crossed. Obviously this is where the biggest pockets of poverty were where I lived. I would say the same situation as I described for white kids existed for them in their schools. I don’t expect they had the textbooks and school materials we had although I have no way to verify this statement.
I can remember the poor kids didn’t get a hot lunch. They brought mayonaise and lard sandwiches from home. Some sat at the lunch table without lunch. Some of these kids also smelled bad. Kids held their noses and made fun of them.
One thing stands out in my mind in particular, and that is student behavior. If you misbehaved, the teacher thrashed you. Most parents seemed to not want their kids to misbehave because it was a social indicator. You got told at home not to act like poor white trash at school because it was a reflection on your parents.
So, what has changed since then? Desegregation, special ed for children ages 3-21 if they have a disability, free and reduced lunch, kids aren’t retained as often, teachers make more money commensurate with their professional status, student behavior and expectations from parents, no corporal punishment, no remedial classes, pregnant students, compulsory education to age 18…….
I am certain that someone else answering your question might have much different recollections than I do. I am also sure I have left out lots of things, but it is a start. I really think the overall answer is, basically no one cared if poor kids learned or not. They were second class citizens and you were directed not to act like them. Socio-economic awareness was much greater back then than it is now.
I really grew up as a middle class child, despite having an educator as a parent. I have had successful adult friends who were truly poor in their youth. They would tell a different story, I am sure, from a different perspective.
obviously, this sub-thread can take on a life of its own…
Dolph,
There is a very timely editorial by Walter Williams in today’s Washington Times. It touches on a bit of what we are talking about here.
Can you say after all of the liberal social programs, and all of the spending has anything changed? Has the basic family structure been improved? Do poor kids still do poorly in school? The only thing that has changed is that people have become dependent on the Feds to fix every problem without first attempting to fix the problem on their own. I would argue children(poor or other wise) growing up in previous generations that did not have access to head start and other liberal social programs were much better off without them.
How does headstart improve the smell of someone?
I think you touched on a very important point when you mentioned what was the expected behavior of kids.
COM,
I have to say that I think poor children are much better off in school today than they were when I was a kid. I do not like to affix labels (liberal vs conservative) to things. That is a value judgement call and it varies from person to person. To me, a kid being given a lunch is not liberal. To you it might be.
I am also not going to speak in generalities. I think you hear about things and decide if they are good or bad without any first hand knowledge.
Rather than me defending headstart, how about you telling me specifically what is wrong with the program, detailing specifically how it has hurt poor kids.
As for cause and effect, I do not think schools have altered family structure. I do believe that family structure has altered schools, however. I think the break down in discipline has definitely had a negative impact on schools. I think parental attitude has had a tremendous negative effect on classroom environment.
Lets bite off a few of these issues at a time. I don’t multi-task very well. And lets try to avoid labels. They add no facts to the discussion.
COM,
I never said anywhere that headstart improved the smell of anyone. Better education about hygiene and indoor plumbing improves BO and filth.
None of my monologue was an endorsement of headstart. In fact, I don’t think I actually endorsed headstart anywhere on this blog. I said I worked in a head start program for a summer. My point in relating my experience was to point out that some sort of intervention program was needed for some kids before they could enter the world of school successfully.
From a practical point of view, the kindergarten teacher who has about 50 objectives to cover in a year with some 25 youngsters should not have to spend his/her time getting some kid to use the indoor bathroom correctly.
correction:
Better education about hygiene and indoor plumbing improve BO and filth.
Subject verb agreement
Dolph,
I can remember the poor kids didn’t get a hot lunch. They brought mayonaise and lard sandwiches from home. Some sat at the lunch table without lunch. Some of these kids also smelled bad. Kids held their noses and made fun of them.
I made the statement about headstart and smelly kids based on what you wrote above. I don’t know why you would add that to a discussion about liberal social programs if they did not help out people to not smell bad.
Sure it is liberal thing to spend billions of dollars on “feel good” programs, headstart, pre k, etc, that have not exactly met the goals of those that support such programs. If they did, I suppose why would always hear calls for more money?
Can you say a child in Washington DC with all of the liberal social programs available is getting a better education then a child received in DC forty years ago?
And, that is the point I am making. After billions of dollars spent on these programs is our public education system any better off, and if the goal of the public education system is to produce educated students has it been worth it?
I would say it has not been worth it and has not produced better educated children. Polls and statistics show American children are not getting smarter, or not matching up as well against their foreign counterparts as they once did.
COM,
The discussion is NOT about ‘liberal social programs.’ The question was “What has changed in the last forty years that now makes it impossible for poor kids to do well in school?”
I described the typical school setting in a large town in Virginia over 40 years ago. I cited some changes I have seen. I didn’t attach labels, just facts.
I asked you to give specifics. You have not other than honing in on the Head Start system, which has changed drastically since I taught a class that one summer. (and not in the town I described)
You are a very difficult person to establish a dialogue with because you continually go back to the point you want to make, regardless of what the other person has said. I believe that is your attempt at control.
Let me repeat. I never wrote the piece about how things were then to compare or contrast schools in the 50’s and 60’s to the head start program. It was written to compare and contrast what has changed since then.
As for Washington DC schools. I know nothing about them nor do I want to know anything about them. I also know nothing about schools in Montana or on Indian reservations. Why would I even discuss something I know nothing about.
Perhaps you might want to consider that the birth rate is considerably higher for poor people than it is for the middle class. Perhaps if people stopped spawning children they don’t have the means or the ability to take care of, some of the problem would be self-correcting. Serious question here…is that liberal or conservative thinking?
Dolph
This is in reference to the superintendent of MP. The smallest school system with the highest taxes proportionately.
Anonymous,
I know very little about MP or their school system. I don’t have any idea how much the superintendent makes there. I do know their teacher salaries are fairly competitive with the area.
I personally think it is rather obscene for the superintendents to make so much more than the average teacher. The counter-argument is that a superintendent is a CEO. On the other hand, I think what most CEOs make in private industry is also obscene. At least I am consistent.
Dolph
There is nothing liberal about talking of birth control. The Church may disagree, but unless you factor that in, there is nothing liberal about it. There is not emphasis in this country on this subject and whenever it is raised the Church steps in.
Dolph,
This does have something to do with liberal social programs. The thread is about Timmy Kaines liberal social program and if it is worth having. So, of course it is logical to compare it to existing programs. Most of the major liberal social programs have been around since the 60’s, so that of course is why I brought up what has changed in the last forty years.
I think it is bit naive to think you know nothing about the DC public school system. If you live in this area, as I think you said you do, it is hard to not read the newspaper and fail to see stories on the DC school system.
It seems you simply do not want to admit these are liberal social programs, and they have failed in making children better educated.
Which brings us back to the plan being pushed by Timmy Kaine. It is not needed, and is a waste of money.
COM,
I don’t think pre-school programs are liberal. We are never going to agree on the original premise because you insist on affixing your own label onto the subject. Therefore, if we cannot agree on the premise, why waste either of our precious time.
Perhaps the place for discussion might be to debate ‘liberal.’ Why is pre-k liberal? Is it liberal if I send my child to private pre-k or is it just liberal if it is part of a public school system? Is public kindergarten liberal? Is all public school liberal? Is all school, private or public liberal?
All I know about DC schools is what I read about in the paper. I am not going to off on a tangent about something I have only read about. Schools are only a microcosm of the society they serve. Given the population in DC, I believe this is a slippery slope I don’t even want to approach. I think it speaks for itself. If the majority of students in DC schools were white or black middle class students, I seriously doubt if the topic would even come up.
Dolph,
Because they are liberal programs. Why do we need an all day Government nanny care for children when they should be with their parents or in private day care? They are mostly pushed by liberals, so that is why they are considered liberal social programs.
I think you are just being invasive because you do not want to admit students are no better of then before. And, that of course is my point—we have spent billions of dollars on programs that are pushed as being beneficial to students, yet they are not.
Why not use DC? They champion those liberal programs, and of course since Timmy’s program is only targeting the poor, it is a good example to use as a comparison. Look at the State of California, they used to have the best public schools in the Nation. Can the same be said now? Nope. Yet, they have all sorts of early intervention programs for children.