Driving liberals, dhimmis and illegal alien apologists absolutely insane since 2005...

The Left Is Salivating, News Channel 8 May Rejoice

By Greg L | 31 August 2007 | Illegal Aliens, Prince William County | 230 Comments

New Channel 8 is probably going to have a remarkably high number of viewers, as the left salivates over their opportunity to see Nancy Lyall take me down in today’s debate, and the right eagerly anticipates being bemused by her comments.  It’s not often that local papers promote this kind of appearance, prompting a lot of people to want to tune in so they can get a better handle about what’s going on here.

This is one of the more interesting promotions, courtesy of Bored Young Professionals:

Virginia political blogger and Frenchy-sounding fascist Greg Letiecq will be doing his favorite thing tonight on News Channel 8 at 4PM: Scaring people to death over the “Mexican Menace,” which is calling from inside the house. The reactionary propaganda piece will be covered in the shroud of legitimacy, as Nancy Lyall of the Woodbridge Workers Committee will play level-headed counterpart in a debate against Greg and his screeching wail of fear and hate.

That wailing sound you’ll hear at 4:30 this afternoon will be that of the far left bemoaning their crumbling political agenda.

I’m not sure when this will re-air — I hear folks saying 8:30, and others saying 11PM, but if you miss the live debate at 4PM because you’re actually being productive and earning a living, I’m pretty sure you’ll have an opportunity to catch this later on.

If you can record this, please do since I’ll probably end up missing this since DirectTV doesn’t carry this channel.



The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.

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230 Comments

  1. JM said on 31 Aug 2007 at 12:28 pm:
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    Wish I could view it, but like you, I am a DirecTv subscriber. I would wish you well, but given your intellect and the fact the you have the rule of law on your side, I already know what the outcome will be.

  2. josh said on 31 Aug 2007 at 12:33 pm:
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    i’m going to record it on my comcast box..not sure i will be able to output it to anything else. Should be good watching though, you’ve got to be pumped up about this one! I’m looking forward to watching it when I get home.

  3. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 12:34 pm:
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    Please, If anyone can tape it and post it here, that would be wonderful as I have DirectTv too.I don’t want to miss it!

    YOU GO GREG!

  4. G Man said on 31 Aug 2007 at 12:39 pm:
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    As long as it is no more than 10 minutes long, look for it on YouTube late this evening. Otherwise it will have to be edited as that is the max YouTube allows. I’ll pass on the link to it so Greg can post.

  5. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 12:41 pm:
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    Many people put up longer YouTube items in segments. You could label them 1 and 2.

  6. FedupinManassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 1:20 pm:
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    According to the News Channel 8 website:

    NewsTalk airs live 4-5pm Monday-Friday. Or catch the replay at 8:30pm (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday) and 11pm (Monday-Thursday).

    Hope that helps!

    Wish I could see it also but everyone that I know has moved beyond Comcast to DirecTV also.

  7. Maureen Wood said on 31 Aug 2007 at 2:34 pm:
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    G Man- You’re the best!

  8. Big Dog said on 31 Aug 2007 at 3:33 pm:
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    Interesting numbers on “Area school demographics
    shift significantly over 10 years” on A7 of today’s
    Manassas Journal Messenger.

    In Manassas City - from 1996 to 2006 the Hispanic
    population went from 9.3% to 39.5%.

    In Manassas Park - from 9.1% to 41.5%

    In PWC - from 6.7% to 24.3%

  9. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 4:03 pm:
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    Greg’s getting ready to start on Channel 8!

  10. dolph said on 31 Aug 2007 at 4:06 pm:
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    One could grow old waiting for it to start. NL should have seen her make up expert….MEOW.

  11. dolph said on 31 Aug 2007 at 4:11 pm:
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    Nancy is so full of crap! Greg is doing a great job, as expected.

  12. dolph said on 31 Aug 2007 at 4:32 pm:
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    Nancy says she sees no problems in the neighborhood…sure some folks arent going to get along but you just have to work it out. What is that woman smoking?

  13. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 4:40 pm:
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    No kidding! I wanted to jump through the TV and strangle her! Why does it always get around to race?…….jeeeeez - she never once mentioned the word “illegal”. This is all about ILLEGAL Nancy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It’ll take her getting hit by an illegal to wake her up!

  14. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 4:51 pm:
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    Oh I hope G Man can get it on you tube and on here! I can’t stand it! Is it over? How did it go?

  15. dolph said on 31 Aug 2007 at 5:11 pm:
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    redawn,

    It went well….Nancy made an ass out of herself and Greg did a great job and sounded like the voice of reason. Actually, Nancy flat out lied. Then she went in to her low the poor starving people routine. She doesn’t see a problem in the neighborhoods. She wants the business partners to help provide more affordable housing in PWC so that these poor people don’t have to live in overcrowded conditions.

    She never mentioned moving to an area that is more affordable, which would be the logical solution. She said that the boycott was a great success also. Yea Right. It definitely looked like a crack cocaine afternoon by the time she finished.

    I think the news station balanced the calls coming in. Some one called in who you couldn’t understand and mumbled something in broken English about all the help the latino community provides mowing lawns and scrubbing toilets and he felt discriminated against. A white man who sounded like he didn’t have enough hormones to grow a beard called in and babbled something that made no sense to me. I guess I could rewind. The Greg supporters were taken first. Maureen and Bob. That’s pretty much all I remember. I was multi-tasking at the time, so this is as good as it is going to get. I do have it recorded but clueless how to burn it to dvd.

  16. josh said on 31 Aug 2007 at 5:12 pm:
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    nancy’s had too many bong hits! she doesn’t see any problem? what’s she going to do about the hispanic’s pissing on the the 7-11 like it’s a public toilet? or the 5 families living in a townhouse down the street? or the fact I have to put my kid in private school since the schools are packed with illegals. Nancy should stop smoking weed and get around a little bit. Illegal is Illegal no matter how you slice it…way to go nancy, you dont know jack.

  17. Maureen Wood said on 31 Aug 2007 at 5:15 pm:
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    Did Lyall say her group has never called anyone a racist? Please tell me I heard her wrong. Do we need to buy her glasses and a hearing aid?

  18. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 5:16 pm:
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    You are right on Dolph. I wanted to call in so badly - but I get too emotional and they would have cut me off. You are so right about the “not enough hormome” guy - what a knucklehead - just a brow beaten Nancy “wanna be”. He’d follow her anywhere. I wish a simple question like “how do you feel about illegal aliens, Nancy” been posed to her. She only talked “immigrants” and never referred to illegal aliens. Maybe I missed it.

  19. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 5:17 pm:
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    Maureen - you heard it right (unfortunately)

  20. Big Dog said on 31 Aug 2007 at 5:17 pm:
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    Greg, of course, did well, but, after watching the show,
    I now believe HSM has engaged in fraud — Nancy
    Lydall has to be working for you guys!

    1) She blew off the whole idea of the United States
    having borders - forget passports, etc. - just meander
    on in when you damn well please. Even my
    liberal friends believe we are a soverign nation
    and must protect our borders - especially after 9-11.
    NAFTA has been a sad joke for many, but
    not an excuse to break the law.

    2) Illegal immigrants are NOT a net positive
    economically for LOCAL government. One
    word — Schools.

    You folks need to give Nancy all the PR you can -
    she is the best weapon HSM has - sorry Greg.

  21. dolph said on 31 Aug 2007 at 5:37 pm:
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    Big Dog,

    hahahaha…right you are. She might be the poster child even. I loved hearing how the ‘immigrants’ (notice lack of adjective before word) paid their taxes with their rents and mortgages.

    Maureen,

    Sorry, you heard correctly.

    MCR,

    I tried to call in but never got through. I even had my little script about trouble in the neighborhoods that I dashed off real fast, culminating in a remark about urinating on the sides of buildings not being condusive to community standards. It is probably just as well I didn’t get through.

    I need to rewind and re-watch. It was just…amazingly strange….

  22. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 5:39 pm:
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    Thanks for the report Dolph!

    I can’t wait to see it for myself. NBC was just on and did some coverage and it sound like the boycott supporter businesses have basically said it was not the answer.

  23. dolph said on 31 Aug 2007 at 5:40 pm:
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    Maureen,

    I believe she even went so far as to say her group doesn’t use words like racist. Real convenient amnesia…..

  24. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 5:46 pm:
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    Dolph,
    Are you saying some background music should be dubbed in the you tube clip , such as Pink Floyd?

  25. Fed up 2 said on 31 Aug 2007 at 5:56 pm:
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    Nancy was her same stupid self. She did say she never uses the word racist. What a liar.
    Her looks is the same plain type and she was like this as a multiculture teacher.
    Was Greg joking when he saiod he’s not a lawyer like her? I don’t think she’s a lawyer. Does anyone know? Where does she live that she’s not aware of all the cars and the large numbers living in the houses. The older neighborhoods are loaded with them.

    Greg did really good and bafoon was a sight for sore eyes.

    Was that Bob that called in was Fr. Bob from Dumfries?? Or was that a friend of HSM?

    Great going Greg. Lets keep it going.

  26. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 5:56 pm:
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    Nod if you can hear me…….lol

  27. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 6:10 pm:
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    fed up 2 -
    I believe Greg was being VERY sarcastic when he said he’s not a lawyer like Nancy …. meaning she’s NOT - yet she talks like she knows what she’s talking about (NOT)! Did you see her face when he said that?
    PRICELESS!

  28. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 6:21 pm:
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    CNN just reported that VA is not going to allow illegal aliens to attend in-state colleges -

  29. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 6:28 pm:
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    Coming up next after commercial….NBC channel 4 is going to talk about the impact of the boycott….hurry!~

  30. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 7:01 pm:
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    Missed it!
    Redawn - what did they say?

  31. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 7:01 pm:
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    Missed it!
    Redawn - what did they say?

  32. G Man said on 31 Aug 2007 at 7:24 pm:
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    The debate video is going to have to be in three parts I believe. I estimate the first segment to be available between 8:30 and 9:00 as it takes time to process it into a format YouTube can accept and then upload it.

  33. Anonymous said on 31 Aug 2007 at 7:43 pm:
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    Im looking forward to the youtube, so I can forward it to people and they can see what BS comes out of the pro-illegal camp locally. I think you guys are right, this woman will make many other people want to stop illegal immigration.

  34. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:02 pm:
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    manassascityresident,

    I am sorry, stepped away for a bit. NBC - The furniture store Campos said they have seen a loss in business because people are moving out and I didn’t catch the rest of it myself because my neighbor had just come in to tell my about her eye laser surgery. It was a very short segment but will be back on at 11pm.

    THANK YOU G Man….I can’t wait.

  35. FaithHopeLove said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:05 pm:
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    In the early 2000s, many communities in the United States began to experience a significant influx of immigrants, especially Hispanics, for the first time in their histories. A single-issue movement opposing immigration has helped create fear and anxiety about immigration in the minds of many Americans. This single-issue movement was started by the KKK. Many KKK groups have attempted to take advantage of that fear and uncertainty, using anti-immigration sentiments for recruitment and propaganda purposes, and to attract publicity. The local grass roots groups springing up need to be very, very careful lest they be associated with or approached by one of the most bigoted, racist, hate, terrorist groups in the history of the US. Hope Greg and his group do not find themselves in very hot water one day.
    I applaud people like Nancy Lyall for thier courage and committment.

  36. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:09 pm:
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    Nod if you can hear me……

  37. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:19 pm:
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    FHL -
    Please! This is NOT about immigration! This is about ILLEGAL ALIENS! When, dear God, WHEN, will you get it through your heads? How many times do we have to say it?????????
    We absolutely, without a doubt, LOVE the LEGAL immigrants! My goodness, I have to wonder if we’re speaking to a bunch of deaf people! Lyall supports ILLEGALS! I would hail her if she were protecting the LEGAL immigrants, but she’s not! She totally avoids the illegal alien discussion - she is a racist against Americans and needs to move to Mexico!
    My goodness, gracious - please tell me you’re not serious……

  38. Linda B. said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:21 pm:
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    FaithHopeLove,

    Some of the “Help Save” groups have been approached by folks they suspect are linked to hate groups. They have declined to deal with those people.

    How many times do we need to say it? This is not about race. It is about the law.

  39. dolph said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:29 pm:
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    Correction to my 5:11 post to redawn

    Bob was NOT a Greg supporter. I believe the Greg phone call supporters were Maureen, Steve and Nancy.

    Nancy’s supporters were Jose and Bob.

    Sorry Steve, whoever you are.

  40. freedom said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:29 pm:
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    Did I sense a bit of a threat there, Faithhopelove?? I certainly hope not!

  41. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:31 pm:
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    Freedom,
    I questioned that myself.

  42. Lafayette said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:40 pm:
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    Faithhopelove
    Applaud Nacy L., I don’t think so!!! After reading your comments, I have one questions for you. Are you an ILLEGAL ALIEN?
    Well, I and most of us applaud Greg L, and ALL members of HSM, and as WE should!!
    Greg L/ALL HSM MEMBERS-
    Keep up the GREAT work!!!!!

  43. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:42 pm:
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    AMEN!

  44. WHY ARE YOU DELETING MY POST? said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:46 pm:
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    I agree, dont get me wrong….Illegals are here and some cause damage to our comunities.public system..But do you really have a number as to how many Legal immigrants are living in the county?…..maybe you are wrong as to think that all of the people standing at 7-11 ,and that walk and live in PWC are illegals, iIbet you that after this res. is made into law not much is going to change…thats why I tell you again….

    HAVE FUN >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  45. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:49 pm:
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    Here we ago again, with the why are you deleting my post gig-
    Nod if you can hear me…..

  46. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:50 pm:
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    It’s good, if correct, that the Help Save groups here in Northern Virginia have rejected white supremacists. Unfortunately the wider movement has not been as picky. Both the movement against illegal aliens and the movement to drastically cut back immigration in general have white supremacist involvement, both in the rank and file and in the leadershp, including accepting members of the National Alliance and Stormfront.

    [Ed note: that is correct.]

  47. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:52 pm:
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    waydmyp?-
    What the heck are you talking about? Do you watch the news? Do you read the papers? Are you a frequent visitor to this blog - or did Nancy send you here to bother us tonight? What’s your deal?
    UMMMMMM, my guess would be YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS, those urinating on the wall of 7-eleven, and turning the homes in our neighborhoods into boarding houses are INDEED ILLEGAL!

    What makes you think that they aren’t? And I REALLY want an answer to that….. but, I won’t hold my breath.

  48. WHY ARE YOU DELETING MY POST? said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:53 pm:
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    hey Lafayette, see what I’m talking about……you asked if I’m an Illegal? Why would you do that???? what reason do you have to do that? are you a “”"” BIGOT “”"”" I say that because you and most of the members of HSM think that anyone that looks immigrant or foreign is ILLEGAL>>>>>>>>>>>Relax , be happy and that GOD for your Family and Blessings

    A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.

  49. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:55 pm:
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    waydmp -
    I’m still waiting for an answer -

  50. Anonymous said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:57 pm:
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    humm.. waydmp,
    I don’t think you look like an immigrant.. you type a bit off from the Queen’s english but so what..

  51. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:58 pm:
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    WHY ARE YOU DELETING MY POST?
    And waiting…….

    And read your post again…..and ask yourself ….”why would Lafayette think I’m illegal?”…..hmmmmmmmmmm

  52. WHY ARE YOU DELETING MY POST? said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:59 pm:
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    Yor guesssssssss.?????????………….see there we go again.
    Why do you continue to GUESSSSSS?????? are you even sure of what you are doing in this blog????? If you are going to say a firm statement you better be ready to prove it and not guess it…. I can only imagine if our founding Father GUESSED about the Constitution ??????????

    so ……….HAVE FUN >>>>>>>>>>>

  53. dolph said on 31 Aug 2007 at 8:59 pm:
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    Faithhopelove and BS,

    I don’t think I like the tone of your post. Hot water?

    I think it is you who should be worried about hot water if you are throwing in with a group that supports criminal activity in the United States. The red carpet will not be out for much longer.

    The only difference between hot water and I.C.E. is temperature.

  54. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:00 pm:
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    And you GUESS that they are NOT illegal - think about it

  55. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:02 pm:
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    waydmp,

    “A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.”

    Is this not what YOU are doing, Are you a lunatic that’s in my head?

    are you a “””” BIGOT “”””” I say that because you and most of the members of HSM think that anyone that looks immigrant or foreign is ILLEGAL>>

    hello, hello is there anybody out there….

  56. WHY ARE YOU DELETING MY POST? said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:07 pm:
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    I pray that this effort has a positive result, cause otherwise its just going to divide our residents, Why did you think that I’m an ILLEGAL maybe it is because you tend to call ” ILLEGAL ” to whoever doesn’t speak good about your leader >>>>>> This subject promotes hate and fear.!!!!!

    Just admit it……..you have nothing better to do then to be looking at the house next door…………I respect that…I dont Judge your habits

    KEEP HAVING FUN >>>>>>>>>>>>

  57. Anonymous said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:09 pm:
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    waydmp,
    you sound very angry..
    also, the framers of our constitution very much “guessed” when they put the document forth. A very educated guess but a guess that came with much hope and faith in Amerians and our creator. I for one believe they made a pretty good guess, all in all..
    btw.. who exactly is our founding “father”?

  58. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:10 pm:
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    As intemperate as waydmp is, I wish that people would retire the “are you an illegal alien question” and its cousin, “why don’t or shouldn’t you go live in Mexico.”

    The are you an illegal alien question is completely disingenuous and entirely asked for effect, not out of any reasonable expectation of it being true. The second love-it-or-leave-it variant departs from American traditions of political debate. Telling your fellow citizen to go live somewhere else when he or she disagrees with you is fundamentally against our political culture. Why are either necessary? Surely you have the skills to make a point without them.

  59. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:12 pm:
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    waydmp.
    The only residents that it will divide are the legal and ILLEGAL, and believe me we are having fun, who said doing the RIGHT thing can’t be fun :)

  60. WHY ARE YOU DELETING MY POST? said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:14 pm:
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    This blog is cool , I’m having fun chatting here. Hot subject, hot temperature. ICE, DHS…HSM..gee why didn’t you fellows became politicians? then we wouldn’t be having this Topic…Or even better why don’t you just get it over with once and for all……

    APPLY FOR A JOB AT ” I.C.E. ” OR THE ” D.H.S. ” let’s see if you can pass the psychological test…

    Like I keep telling you ………….HAVE FUN

  61. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:19 pm:
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    waydmp,

    Glad your having fun. If you don’t L.I.K.E the L.A.W.S of A.M.E.R.I.C.A,
    all you have to do is V.O.T.E to try and change them.

  62. WHY ARE YOU DELETING MY POST? said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:22 pm:
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    btw.. who exactly is our founding “father”?

    DUH ……DONT tell me that you don’t know???????

    Where are you living , what country or planet are you comunicating from ?
    dont think It’s George Washington??? now could it be???

    That’s why a lot of countries in the world don’t like us Americans !!!
    We are Arrogant and Ignorant. Why do you keep saying that all Hispanics are Mexicans? Were you taught Geography at school? or Did you go to school?

  63. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:22 pm:
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    the lunatic is in the blog….

  64. Fed up Guy said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:24 pm:
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    Obviously a couple of 12 year olds salvaging the last bi of summer fun…

  65. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:26 pm:
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    I would work for I.C.E. in a heartbeat - but I don’t think they’d take an old lady….
    I may try anyway - it would be the most rewarding job I ever had!

  66. WHY ARE YOU DELETING MY POST? said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:26 pm:
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    there you go …you just said it……If you don’t like the current Laws just vote

    VOTE AND GET THEM CHANGED…… don’t become a VIGILANTE , Don’t spread hate, fear and discrimination with your words and acts !!!!!

  67. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:27 pm:
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    Why,

    Talk about not having a life…. You come on here to banter with folks on an issue you obviously support—illegal immigration.

    I won’t say your an illegal, just someone who supports criminals. Do you also support having someone commit a crime against your family, and then will you openly support that person? If not, then you are a hypocrite.

  68. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:28 pm:
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    waydmp -
    please calm down….you’re going to give yourself an ulcer…..

  69. dolph said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:28 pm:
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    Why…..,

    This is an adult forum. Please act accordingly.

    To answer your charge: “Just admit it……..you have nothing better to do then (sic) to be looking at the house next door…………I respect that…I dont Judge your habits “

    Some people look at the house next door because some of those who live next door do not adhere to our community standards. Some of us don’t like 3-4 families living in a house built for one. Some of us don’t like farm animals for neighbors. Some of us don’t like our property values to drop significantly because of the habits of others.

    Those of us living in residential neighborhoods who have owned our houses for years do not like living next door to make shift hotels.

    If you are our neighbor and comply with the community standards already in place when you moved here, I seriously doubt if you have anyone looking at your house. I look at my new next door neighbor’s house to admire the pretty flowers in the yard.

    On the other hand, if you moved in next door and moved 4 other families in with you, if you are letting trash pile up all over the yard, and you are keep me up all night with raucous behavior, you had best believe I am watching you and will be filing a complaint over every violation I see. And if your chickens fly into my yard, my dog will be having chicken dinner.

  70. JM said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:28 pm:
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    Nancy Lyall is so out of tough with realty.

    She says illegals pay taxes. Day laborers don’t pay income taxes. I worked at CL Barnes furniture on Centreville Rd for two years, 1995 and 1996. The store was staffed by women and occassionally an elderly man, so when we needed rearrange the showroom, management would drop off day laborers to do the job. I saw no one take identification, social security numbers, W-4 forms from these people. When the day was done, the manager would simply take cash out of the till to pay them. She told me they were “casual labor.” It’s a pretty safe bet that Barnes didn’t send them 1099s at the end of the year. How did the IRS get those taxes, Nancy? Also, since we were a bunch of women, I found it very unnerving to have strangers given free access to the store,and be alone with people I did not know and could not communicate with.

    She says there are no problems in the neighborhoods. I bought a town home (actually a condo, but it looked like a town home) at Mosby Ridge when it was new. We sold it three years ago because our Hispanic neighbors on one side rented out the basement to men who were unrelated to them (their children told me they were strangers). The overcrowding was a problem because of limited parking. There were times I came home and had no place to prak because excess cars were in the two spaces I pad the HOA $148 each month to occupy. There were at least 8 adults in the home and the garbage was unbelievable. They couldn’t fit it all in their bin, so they left the bags on the deck. Soon the rats moved in. The city, the HOA, and the now bankrupt Koger management refused to do anything about the situation. That was when we decided to move out. The first day our realtor came over to pick us up to view homes was the day our dachshund killed her first rat. This was the day before Easter. From that day in April until we moved in mid May, she killed six more rats in our yard. I did not move because of racism. We actually liked the homeowner and befriended the family. We even attended their daughter’s first communion and party afterwards. It was quality of life.

    We did eventually find a home thanks to a dedicated realtor who knew the Manassas/PWC area. He previewed every home. I had hoped for a home in Old Town, but the only thing in our price range was a house on Battle St. It was supposed to be unoccupied, but when our realtor previewed it he discovered 12 Hispanic men living there as squatters, much to the surprise of the listing agent.

    As I said, it is a quality of life issue, not racism. Illegal is not a race.

  71. Anonymous said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:29 pm:
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    waydmp,

    just a small point of fact..

    The one and only George Washington is known as the “father of our country” not our “founding father”….

    the “founding father(s).. (notice plural) were the framers of our constitution that you were writing about earlier…

    living in the great USA on the planet Earth..

    hope you are “having fun” with the history lesson

  72. WHY ARE YOU DELETING MY POST? said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:34 pm:
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    I have friends at I.C.E. …..we talk about the crisis of the system, wanna know what they say? Not all ILLEGALS are deportable. Why ????
    Cause they don’t have the money or the infrastructure to send them all back to their native countries, they only go after hard convicted criminals !!!!

    Ever thought that Immigration employees drive by many 7-11’s on their way to work? and that they see the ” Mexicans ” standing there. Why don’t they just get out of their cars and arrest them, and deport them?

    Harrasment????? maybe or it could be that they know something that you guys don’t know? or won’t accept :

    NOT ALL IMMIGRANT LOOKING PEOPLE ARE ILLEGALS !!!!!!!!!!!!

  73. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:38 pm:
    Flag comment

    Wow,

    Nice insight…. Not all immigrant looking people are illegals? You are a sharp one. Just what does an immigrant looking person look like?

  74. G Man said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:39 pm:
    Flag comment

    The first segment is now available. Here is the link to it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY-jIaySq5k

    It is about 7 minutes long. There will be 4 parts total as the whole debate ran about 22 minutes.

    Part 2 is loading now is also about 7 minutes. Part 3 is about 7 minutes, and the last part is only 1 minute.

    Sorry this is so slow.

  75. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:40 pm:
    Flag comment

    Who’s talking about the way they look? We’re talking about the way they LIVE - as illegal criminals. Got it? Good -

    And the point of the resolution is to get rid of illegal alien CRIMINALS - so what’s your point, SAYDMP?????????????????? I honesty, don’t get the point you are trying to make - or not make - or ….whatever.

  76. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:40 pm:
    Flag comment

    JM, whether or not day laborers pay taxes (and that would include American citizen day laborers), many illegal aliens, perhaps as many as 40-50% do have SS and other payroll taxes deducted in steadier jobs than day labor. There is a lot of documentation on this fact and also it is the method of the supposed crackdown coming on mismatched numbers.

    Was Nancy Lyall only talking about day laborers?

  77. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:40 pm:
    Flag comment

    Thanks, G Man!

  78. WHY ARE YOU DELETING MY POST? said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:41 pm:
    Flag comment

    “” Some people look at the house next door because some of those who live next door do not adhere to our community standards. Some of us don’t like 3-4 families living in a house built for one. Some of us don’t like farm animals for neighbors. Some of us don’t like our property values to drop significantly because of the habits of others. “”"”

    As long as they DONT come in my property I’m ok………

    Where’s the FREEDOM that we as Americans preach and brag about?
    If it’s my house and I want to walk inside naked I CAN ..RIGHT??????

    Property values dropping?????? do you live in VA ???? give us all a better reason.

    If house values are dropping a bit is not because of people, but rather the interest rates and the economy being slow, why would that be ???? THE REAL ISSUE….that you just won’t accept

    THE IRAQ WAR………………..Billions of Dollars to support…..

    And here we are burning our eyes for a couple of county dollars, compared to the BILLIONS of the IRAQ war.

  79. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:43 pm:
    Flag comment

    OH MY GOSH - SOMEONE SHOOT ME NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  80. dolph said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:44 pm:
    Flag comment

    Leila,

    No one knows what Nancy Lyall was talking about including Nancy Lyall.

    The only word she used was ‘immigrant’ which of course, is not what HSM is all about.

  81. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:45 pm:
    Flag comment

    Leila,

    Stop trying to make excuses. How do you know 40 to 50% of illegals have social security numbers? Have asked each and every illegal that question to come up with those stats?

    Illegals buy fake social security numbers, steal them, or just make up numbers in order to seem legal. But, lets not start counting up the crimes committed by these “just hard working folks, who are only here to do jobs Americans refuse to do”..

    The fact we have are own criminals has nothing to do with illegals, I don’t think law enforcement passes up pulling over a non looking illegal immigrant who might be a drunk driver.

    Should we just ignore all crime and criminals? It sounds like that is what you want.

  82. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:47 pm:
    Flag comment

    Why,

    To A.N.S.W.E.R. ( hopefully not.com) your question:

    “Where’s the FREEDOM that we as Americans preach and brag about?
    If it’s my house and I want to walk inside naked I CAN ..RIGHT??????”

    YES, walk, jump, do cartwheels, in YOUR house naked.

    “If house values are dropping a bit is not because of people, but rather the interest rates and the economy being slow, why would that be ???? THE REAL ISSUE….that you just won’t accept”

    There were alot of people whom did not educate themselves before such a BIG purchase and found themselves in over their heads using their houses as ATM machines.

  83. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:47 pm:
    Flag comment

    Wow, we have a real live socialist on our hands.

    Blame it on the war. If the economy is so bad, why are millions of illegals coming here to work?

  84. JM said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:48 pm:
    Flag comment

    Leila,

    Many, many, many illegals work as day laborers, and I would be surprised if more than a handful of them, if any, pay income taxes.

    As for illegals who have SSNs - if an illegal has an SSN, it’s because they stole it from someone else. This creates headaches for the rightful owners of those numbers. Surely you aren’t saying that it’s okay for illegals to commit a felony by stealing a SSN, as long as taxes are withheld?

    No matter how they work, with or without SSNs they are committing felony theft or tax fraud or evasion, and it is wrong.

  85. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:54 pm:
    Flag comment

    Here’s a perfect example - TRUE story.

    My brother parked in front of his house as he always does.
    At 3:00 AM he is awakened by the sound of a huge crash and sirens of police cars.

    He walks out front and lo and behold, his car has been hit and totaled by a pick-up truck. The driver jumps from the car and flees into the woods. The passenger only speaks Spanish. Let’s see, after an interpreter tries to get the “REAL” story from the remaining passenger, he gives the police an address.
    You know the rest of the story, the address doesn’t exist and my brother is out a car…..

    But we don’t have a problem and we’re to expect the best from our “neighbors” and turn the other cheek when crimes happen that didn’t have to happen in the first place.

    yeah, right, that’ll be the day.

  86. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 9:58 pm:
    Flag comment

    COM, as usual you don’t actually read anyone’s post. Nothing in what I said suggests we ignore all crime and criminals.

    In terms of the stats, they are based on several accounts I have read of the issue. An NYT article from April 5, 2005, with a chart from the GAO of the SS Admin states that illegal aliens are subsidizing the SS system by as much as $7 billion dollars a year. A very large proportion of illegal aliens have SS and payroll taxes deducted. If you would like to read the article without paying the NYT archive fee, just google the words “Illegal immigrants social security” and it will come up. It is not the only source of course. The URL is a little long to paste.

    But you are right, I made a grievous error in the numbers. I underestimated them. Here is a comment in the article from the SS Admin’s chief actuary:

    “Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes,” said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security’s chief actuary, using the agency’s term for illegal immigration.”

    The fact this goes on is precisely why fake SS numbers will be used as a method of cracking down on employers. They have the records.

    COM, if you have evidence to refute what the chief actuary employed by the SS Admin has stated in this article, or the other numbers contained therein, then please do provide a citation.

  87. dolph said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:00 pm:
    Flag comment

    Why…aka SFB,

    You lack basic knowledge of the US economy. The economy is in pretty good shape, despite the housing market crunch. Interest rates are not particularly high, although not at their all time low. The stock market is healthy as evidenced by several very strong days this week.

    How about you driving through Manassas Park, Yorkshire, Westgate, and a few other neighborhoods. What do YOU think is causing the property to decrease in value by $30-50k in a year? hmmmmm…could it be over crowding, trash lining the streets, cans overflowing for days, not just the night before trash pick up, service vehicles lining the streets, houses in ill-repair? YOU tell me.

  88. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:03 pm:
    Flag comment

    It is easy to refute what he said… Our “assumption” That is an assumption, not a fact. Next question please…

    Why do you insist on trying to blend in the crimes committed by Americans or legal immigrants with those committed by illegals? Illegals do not belong here end of story. What is so hard to understand about that.

    Unlike you, I support a crack down on illegals and businesses that hire illegals. Once again you cast blame on someone other then an illegal. Do you not think people should be held accountable for their own actions?

  89. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:04 pm:
    Flag comment

    PS to COM, I mean a citation of equivalent authority of course. Ie. the SS Admin, its GAO, its actuaries, etc., or comparable.

  90. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:04 pm:
    Flag comment

    G Man,
    THANK YOU! I just got done with the first segment. Greg- You look good in a suit, I personally have not YET seen you in a suit. LOL
    Doing Great- ready for segment 2- roll film.

  91. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:08 pm:
    Flag comment

    COM, You don’t bother to read the article or look at the GAO chart. You think that his use of “assumption” negates what he says when that is a figure of speech. This isn’t a secret. The subsidy of nearly $7 billion is known and the reason for it is the reason that the crackdown using the mismatch numbers could be effective. But forget it, you’ve decided based on nothing in particular that illegal aliens don’t pay SS and payroll taxes, so no amount of information straight from the agency in question will dissuade you.

  92. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:08 pm:
    Flag comment

    Leila,

    I don’t know what type of job you have, so I want guess. However, if you lost your job, or wanted a new job, and had a legal right to work in America, would you hang out on a street corner looking for a job, would you hang out in a parking lot looking for a job?

    Or, would you look in the classified ads, visit one of the many employment agencies that are in our area that are avaiable to anyone here legally? Would you visit the unemployment office to take advantage of the many job placement services they have?

    If all of these illegals have social security numbers, why do they still hang out in the parking lots looking for jobs?

  93. TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:11 pm:
    Flag comment

    MCR,
    “But we don’t have a problem and we’re to expect the best from our “neighbors” and turn the other cheek when crimes happen that didn’t have to happen in the first place”
    Many incidents happen but how do you know that these people are illegal? You see people who are different but you cannot tell if they are here illegally. When you start putting people into categories then you are discriminating. THat is not racism but you are getting close

  94. G Man said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:13 pm:
    Flag comment

    The second part is 1/2 loaded. At this rate it will be midnight to get all four.

  95. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:13 pm:
    Flag comment

    Lelia,

    If one is talking facts, they should avoid using language that clouds the point they are tying to make. An assumption is just that.

    On one hand you also state there are Americans who engage in the same type of behavior as illegals do. Yet, you claim all that surplus is from illegals. So, shouldn’t some of that money belong to legal workers?

  96. TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:14 pm:
    Flag comment

    Even if you have a stolen SSN COM the money goes somewhere. That is what Leila is trying to say

  97. Michael said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:14 pm:
    Flag comment

    To answer the lunatic screaming angry child…waydmp

    When we get a law that lets us properly identify illegal immigrants from legal immigrants it will be easy to determine who is breaking the law by simply asking for the proper ID. That will be a simple card or symbol on your driver’s license that will show your citizenship, green card or Visa-I94 status.

    Then any employer, policeman, agent of the people elected and charged to deport lawless individuals regardless of their race, gender, religion or ethnic group will be easy to identfy, jail and deport.

    Until then, people are upset because the economic condition is worsening due to “illegal” immigrants, and the ethics of the community is worsening and deteriorating because “illegal” immigrants already don’t care about breaking the law, and will contiune to breal more until they are caught.

    I have faith in our constitution to hold people accountable to the law while not allowing any racial, gender, ethnic or religious group to have any special priviliges, that the rest of us are not allowed to have, like free services, free medical treatment, special racial schools, free college assistance, free speech only if you belong to a special racial group, our own special language in every community business not common to any other racial group and free racially selective social benefits (like tax evasion) from our friends and family of the same racial and ethnic background.

    Giving special privileges to racial and ethnic groups so people like you can scream they’ve been offended in some way by the law, is not my idea of a sane and healthy stable society. It people like you who divide nations in half just for your own self interests. Some day I’m sure you’ll grow up and understand. Until then keep having fun at making an idiot of yourself to grown adults who really understand the seriousness of the issue.. lawlessness and economic welfare.

  98. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:15 pm:
    Flag comment

    G Man,
    That’s ok! Thank you! Thank you!

  99. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:16 pm:
    Flag comment

    TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:14 pm:

    “Even if you have a stolen SSN COM the money goes somewhere. That is what Leila is trying to say”

    Yes, your are correct, right out of the pocket that person stole it from.

  100. manassascityresident said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:19 pm:
    Flag comment

    TH -
    So you think they were legal citizens? What makes you think they were? Please, do tell me, after reflecting on my story, what part of it makes you think that they are legal citizens. I am so curious to know how you and others are quick to point out that we can’t possibly assume that someone may be illegal when YOU don’t know yourself if they are legal.
    Don’t you dare try to insinuate that I’m discriminating. If it looks like a duck and ACTS like a duck - well , you know the rest.

  101. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:19 pm:
    Flag comment

    COM, why do you assume that all illegal aliens work as day laborers? Huge numbers of illegal aliens are employed in steady work in the service and industrial sectors. Many of the spectacular crackdowns lately have been against factory labor in other parts of the country, for example the recent New Bedford bust.

    In the DC area, many illegal aliens work in jobs where they have a regular paycheck with taxes deducted, such as in restaurants, parking garages, hotels, shops, etc. Everybody knows this. Why don’t you? Nearly $7 billion a year in SS and other payroll taxes iis coming from a segment that is not part of the underground cash economy the way that day labor is. You perhaps need to look beyond the 7-11 or Home Depot parking lots and their ilk.

  102. TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:20 pm:
    Flag comment

    “Until then, people are upset because the economic condition is worsening due to “illegal” immigrants”
    How so Michael?
    I see that some Americans are affected by competing for jobs with illegal aliens.
    Are the illegal aliens making the price of oil going up? Are the illegal aliens promoting a war in Irak? Are the illegal aliens buying cheap products from China?
    Let’s say that no one else breaks the law, then suddenly everything gets fixed? No more war and the wall street goes back to normal?

  103. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:20 pm:
    Flag comment

    TH,

    If a person has engaged in identity theft to earn money, that is a crime. They are not entitled to the money. It is no better then robbing a bank, or robbing someone on the street.

  104. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:25 pm:
    Flag comment

    COM, I never talked about who the money belongs to. I simply stated, which is true, that a very large proportion of illegal aliens have steady jobs in which they have SS and payroll taxes deducted and the proportion is high enough that the SS Admin is subsidized in the billions of dollars.

  105. firstbelegal said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:25 pm:
    Flag comment

    For some good news, the cops have been at the day labor site at Rt. One and Longview Dr. in Woodbridge the last three days. Not sure what was going on, but at least it looked better than just day laborers running amok.

    Great job tonight Greg!

  106. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:25 pm:
    Flag comment

    Lelia,

    Thanks for ignoing my questions. Gotcha again. This is too easy.

  107. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:28 pm:
    Flag comment

    Leila,

    You are amazing…. Of course the money does not belong to illegals. It is money made by engaging in criminal activity.

  108. TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:28 pm:
    Flag comment

    Leila,
    the fact that a lot of these people depend on the 7-11 tells you something about their economic situation. Some don’t want to see what they have in front of them.
    ” I don’t like to wait behind illegal aliens buying coffee at the 7-11″ ” I cannot get a slurpee for my kid at the 7-11″ ” I am against the boycott so I am buying at Walmart”
    The economy is not OK folks and when you see illegal aliens buying houses next to you then right there there is sign about the status that this society has assigned to you. It is sad but it is a reality. You are not saying I have a choice and rather than going to the 7-11 I am going to Starbucks. I will buy at Microcenter and not Walmart?
    Someone was saying yesterday how his/her stepson was suffering because he has to compete for a job at Walmart. What kind of education thyat kid got? Illegal alliens are responsible for that too?
    Why the people from Bethesda are not suffering through this predicament that you go through evry day?

  109. TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:31 pm:
    Flag comment

    COM,
    I am not defending illegal behavior but when you categorize everything into Crime you make it sound like these people were into drug dealing and the taxes went to the government.
    This is not about your old debate competion and about beating your opponent.
    You are not solving the problem that way. What solutiond do you offer?

  110. TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:33 pm:
    Flag comment

    COM
    I am not saying that they are entitled to the money. It is yours or ours to spend. The point made by Leila is that there is some money generated by what illegal aliens do. The employers are using the situation and committing a crime too b ut you are not concerned about that. Why?

  111. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:35 pm:
    Flag comment

    TH,

    Illegals artificially hold earnings down. They do not pay taxes on their earnings. I won’t say the entire economy is in shambles because of illegals, but they do have a negative impact on it.

    It is a huge myth that illegals do jobs Americans do not want to do. What is not a myth is that illegals will gladly accept unlivable wages knowing full well they are not paying taxes on it, and are living in overcrowded residences where they are not responsible alone for either the mortgage or the rent.

    Americans will do anything but not for a fair price. There are millions of Americans who work in every employment segment there is. Think about it, we have a population of 300 million people, an esitmated twelve to twenty of that are illegal. That leaves a lot of jobs for Americans to do.

  112. TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:35 pm:
    Flag comment

    “Yes, your are correct, right out of the pocket that person stole it from”
    How so?
    They go and work illegally and the worker gets the deduction. I don’t see how the money comes from the person that owns the SSN

  113. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:36 pm:
    Flag comment

    TH,

    Did you read my post where I said I support going after the illegals and the companies that hire them? If you did, you wold not have said I do not support going after the companies.

  114. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:37 pm:
    Flag comment

    COM I never said the money belonged to the illegal aliens. Where do you see me saying that? I didn’t state an opinion on that. I just said the money in the billions was being collected.

    You harbor bizarre beliefs, such as the notion that millions of illegal aliens don’t hold steady jobs with payroll deductions. This is despite the fact that some of the most reported on crackdowns lately have been against exactly such types of illegal aliens and the fact in this area entire sectors of steady non-day work have plenty of illegal laborers.

    Frankly you show yourself incapable of ever “getting” anyone. The fact that in lieu of actual argument and citations, you feel the need to believe that you “got someone” speaks volumes. But I will leave that to the professionals.

  115. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:39 pm:
    Flag comment

    TH, I think your comment addressed to me must have been for COM or others of the HSM movement.

  116. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:39 pm:
    Flag comment

    Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:25 pm:

    “COM, I never talked about who the money belongs to. I simply stated, which is true, that a very large proportion of illegal aliens have steady jobs in which they have SS and payroll taxes deducted and the proportion is high enough that the SS Admin is subsidized in the billions of dollars.”

    HELLO, HELLO,

    YOU NEED TO NOT AVOID WHO THE MONEY BELONGS TO.

    You just admitted that ILLEGAL ALIENS have SS ILLEGALLY.

    WHAT ABOUT THE FOLKS WHO ARE VICTIMS OF ID FRUAD, LOOSE THEIR HOUSES, CREDIT, ETC. AND MAY EVEN HAVE TO FILE BANKRUPTCY? WHO HAS TO PICK UP THAT SLACK?
    nod if you can hear me…..

  117. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:40 pm:
    Flag comment

    TH,

    It is illegal to work in the United States if a person is an illegal alien. It is a crime to engage in identity theft. It is a crime to use stolen documents. What part of that is not criminal to you?

    My solution is easy enforce the law. That means going after the illegals and the companies that hire them. Take away the incentive for both, and the illegals will go away.

  118. TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:42 pm:
    Flag comment

    COM,
    The way the economy is now, industries cannot afford to pay that fair price. Once you get rid of illegal aliens the money won’t go to pay for decent americans. It will go to China or south of the border.
    Americans need to see that and get educated to have other skills that will give them an edge. That is what developing countries do. They know they cannot compete against the US and the create niches.
    When are we going to start doing the same thing? I think it is time to stop worrying about illegal aliens stealing my chance to become a greeter at Walmart.
    I have to go with a salary of 12,000 for three years while in grad school. The government took 2,000 in taxes. Now I have an edge and have a decent salary. We need to sacrifice and work for something better. I didn’t blame illegal aliens for my situation, I work to get where I am now.

  119. TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:43 pm:
    Flag comment

    COM,
    I agree that the solution has to go in the direction of eliminating the incentives.

  120. Sals said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:45 pm:
    Flag comment

    Leila,
    If illegals are subsidizing the SS system to the tune of 7 billion dollars I’m not shedding any tears for them. That’s one of the consequences of their actions. That would be one of the few benefits (which doesn’t outweigh the drawbacks) of illegal immigration. That being said, if SS is getting that windfall, what windfall is the IRS getting? What is the percentage of $$ coming to IRS through withholding federal taxes w/a bad SSN for which a return is never filed, compared to SS withholdings with the same bad SSN? How many illegals claim 10 or more dependents on their W-4 so nothing is withheld?

  121. TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:46 pm:
    Flag comment

    Yes Leila. I just made a reference to your post. I pretty much agree with what you posted.

  122. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:47 pm:
    Flag comment

    redawn, what I was responding to was JM’s posts regarding day laborers not paying taxes. I was just pointing out that there are millions of illegal aliens who are not day laborers who do pay taxes via fake or stolen SS numbers of course. The SS Administration uses that money. It’s theirs to use without payback because it isn’t coming from people working legally. I didn’t have to “admit” that illegal aliens have SS numbers illegally. That goes without saying and I never said they had legitimate ones. My only concern was to point out that millions of them pay into the SS and payroll-tax system even if day laborers do not.

  123. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:48 pm:
    Flag comment

    Leila,

    It is not bizarre to think illegals do not hold steady jobs. All of those crackdowns you have mentioned have netted a few thousand illegals… That leaves many more who hang out on the street corner looking for jobs. If you think we are the only area where we have illegals who hang out in parking lots, you are very mistaken.

    You simply want to ignore that many illegals are paid in cash daily, in order to prop up your “but they do pay taxes” lie to make it seem as if they are just like everyone else.

    Would you stand in a parking lot looking for a job?

  124. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:50 pm:
    Flag comment

    Sals, I didn’t say you need shed any tears. My post was just pointing out they were paying this particular tax. You may choose whether or not to weep on your own. I don’t have information on the IRS, so I will not venture an opinion. Perhaps we can both try to find some government information on it.

  125. monticup said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:51 pm:
    Flag comment

    It doesn’t matter whether the illegal alien has a steady job and pays taxes or an unsteady job and doesn’t pay taxes. The individual does not belong here. He is here illegally and needs to be sent home. If he wants to become an American there is a way to do it legally. If they think it’s too difficult to immigrate legally, maybe they don’t have what it takes to be an American.

  126. TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:55 pm:
    Flag comment

    “If they think it’s too difficult to immigrate legally, maybe they don’t have what it takes to be an American.”
    And that is a job at Walmart? I mean illegal aliens are not competing for a job with NASA

  127. monticup said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:55 pm:
    Flag comment

    I’ll say it again. All we have to do is 1) tax the remittances, 2) end birthright citizenship and 3) bill the home countries for the medical, educational and law enforcement costs incurred by the illegal aliens. Problem solved.

  128. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:55 pm:
    Flag comment

    Th,

    Now we can agree on something. Take the incentives away.

    One funny thing about the recent employment busts of the Chicken plants and meat packing plants is that after the media left, these places were able to hire legal American workers in place of illegals. Hmmm, I thought one, Americans were not willing to do such jobs, and there are not enough Americans for all the jobs out there. Also, I have not seen any increase in the price of chicken nor have I seen news accounts blaming the hiring of legal American workers for price increases. I have seen stories that have placed the blame for price increases on oil and other transportation costs.

    While I agree there are corporations who engage in some pretty crappy employment practices, the simple fact is that not every American wants or even is cut out to be a high tech worker. So, there needs to be jobs for those “blue collar” folks, and those are the ones that are affected the most by illegals.

  129. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:57 pm:
    Flag comment

    COM, again, the SS Admin is receiving billions of dollars a year from illegal workers with withheld SS and payroll taxes. That amounts to millions of people holding such jobs. I certainly don’t deny that the remainder and maybe the majority of illegal aliens work as day labor.

    Obviously the crackdowns have been extremely limited. The numbers caught are no evidence for the numbers of illegal aliens with steady work. That is known from the money collected by the SS Admin and from plenty of accounts of entire industries relying on lots of illegal labor in which paychecks are given.

    Even if I were without a job, I would not stand in a parking lot looking for work because I wouldn’t be hired for the kind of work people get in such situations. There is a reason why the day-labor force is overwhelmingly young and male. But I know of American citizens from the District who seek work as day laborers in a more formal way.

  130. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:58 pm:
    Flag comment

    Monticup,

    I’ll take it a further step, we should not allow remittances at all. We do not allow money transfers to a number of Counties, we can simply expand the list.

  131. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:59 pm:
    Flag comment

    Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 10:47 pm:

    “redawn, what I was responding to was JM’s posts regarding day laborers not paying taxes. I was just pointing out that there are millions of illegal aliens who are not day laborers who do pay taxes via fake or stolen SS numbers of course. The SS Administration uses that money. It’s theirs to use without payback because it isn’t coming from people working legally. I didn’t have to “admit” that illegal aliens have SS numbers illegally. That goes without saying and I never said they had legitimate ones. My only concern was to point out that millions of them pay into the SS and payroll-tax system even if day laborers do not.”

    Fraud is Fraud, Stealing is Stealing. ONE VICTIM IS TO MANY esp., if the VICTIMIZER IS ILLEGAL! AND MANY MILLIONS OF VICTIMS ARE THE ONES WHO LOOSE OUT AND WHEN THEY DO, WHO HAS TO PAY?

  132. TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:01 pm:
    Flag comment

    Do you know the history of remittances? This is not new. It has been documented that immigrants in the early 1900s’ sent money to their home countries. It was not just a few dollars. The proportions were the about the same.
    They build houses back in their countries and a lot of them left despite the myth that they stayed and assimilated.

  133. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:03 pm:
    Flag comment

    Monticup, just curious. How would you tax the remittances? How would you get access to the money to tax it? Remittances are sent in ways that are unmonitored and can’t be monitored. Also, how do you “bill” a country? What do you do if they don’t pay? Go to war? There are illegal aliens from all over the world, so I assume you mean a bill for each country. What form does this billing take?

    It would take a Constitutional Amendment to rescind birthright citizenship, but at least for those of you who want to alter our Constitution, there is a process you can work toward. I wouldn’t be too optimistic though.

  134. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:03 pm:
    Flag comment

    Leila,

    Thanks. Again, I would point to the normal mistakes people(legal of course) make in paying taxes, and filing their tax returns. Exactly how much of that money you are talking about is from those mistakes?

    The point of course is that nobody knows exactly how many illegals hold steady jobs, or how much they pay in ss taxes that are never collected.

  135. TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:04 pm:
    Flag comment

    redawn,
    “Fraud is Fraud, Stealing is Stealing. ONE VICTIM IS TO MANY esp., if the VICTIMIZER IS ILLEGAL! AND MANY MILLIONS OF VICTIMS ARE THE ONES WHO LOOSE OUT AND WHEN THEY DO, WHO HAS TO PAY?”
    Are you sure that you are not Lou Dobbs. You just sound like a tape recorder and you haven’t prove your point. Leila has a point. Some money from SSN comes from illegal aliens. That’s it.

  136. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:06 pm:
    Flag comment

    Leila,

    “The point of course is that nobody knows exactly how many illegals hold steady jobs, or how much they pay in ss taxes that are never collected.”

    That would be because they are undocumented and cannot be found.

  137. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:08 pm:
    Flag comment

    TH,

    Of course folks have always sent money back to the “old Country”. But the vast vast majority of those immigrants were legal. Why? Because they came by ship right into the ports and Ellis Island where Government officials were waiting to process them.

    We also did not have many of the social programs avaiable that we have now.

    Those two aspects makes for a huge difference between then and now.

  138. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:10 pm:
    Flag comment

    redawn, you shouted:

    Fraud is Fraud, Stealing is Stealing. ONE VICTIM IS TO MANY esp., if the VICTIMIZER IS ILLEGAL! AND MANY MILLIONS OF VICTIMS ARE THE ONES WHO LOOSE OUT AND WHEN THEY DO, WHO HAS TO PAY?

    I wasn’t commenting on those who “loose” [sic] out or whether one victim is “to” [sic] many. Obviously using fake documents to work is against the law. I was just responding to JM by mentioning the billions of dollars that go to SS from illegal aliens who indeed pay taxes.

  139. dolph said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:10 pm:
    Flag comment

    TH,

    My friend, I am going to have to disagree with you here for the moment. In the first place, I am trying to follow a conversation between you, Leilah, and COM and …I can’t. It is like all of you all are speaking in tongues or something. And I cannot bridge the disconnect.

    The 7-11 issue is over those stores being used as day labor sites, not waiting in line for a cup of coffee. Major loitering for lack of a better word. The 7-11 I pass on the way to get my Starbucks is so nasty I drive 3 blocks out of my way to avoid it.

    Secondly, I think I detect a bit of snobbery in your remark about Bethesda, as in, if all of you all had gone further in life, you would live in a better house and the illegal aliens could not afford to live next door to you. Have I mischaracterized your statement?

    I think this is the root of the problem for many people here on who are involved with HSM. They thought that they did live in middle class neighborhoods. Suddenly, within the past two years, these middle class neighborhoods have been overrun with families buying houses and then packing multiple families in the houses. If you pack 4 families in a house built for one family and charge rent, you can buy yourself a pretty decent house your mortgage is paid. In fact, the ‘hotel’ and boarding house industry is alive and booming in Prince William County.

    If the brakes are not applied, the problems we are suffering with will eventually reach you.

  140. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:11 pm:
    Flag comment

    # TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:04 pm:

    redawn,
    “Fraud is Fraud, Stealing is Stealing. ONE VICTIM IS TO MANY esp., if the VICTIMIZER IS ILLEGAL! AND MANY MILLIONS OF VICTIMS ARE THE ONES WHO LOOSE OUT AND WHEN THEY DO, WHO HAS TO PAY?”
    Are you sure that you are not Lou Dobbs. You just sound like a tape recorder and you haven’t prove your point. Leila has a point. Some money from SSN comes from illegal aliens. That’s it.

    TH,

    Ok. I get that point. What about my point about the VICTIMS of SS fraud, WHO pays for such a crime?

    By the way, I like Lou Dobbs and I also think that Bill O’Riley is kinda sexy in his own what, maybe it’s the way he holds his pen. What does that prove?

  141. monticup said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:11 pm:
    Flag comment

    Leila: How do these illegal aliens send $$ home? Western Union? We could add an onerous surcharge. The gov’t has no problem collecting taxes when it wants to. How do you “bill” a country? How do we “give” foreign aid? Ask the Dept of Treasury or the State Dept. Don’t you even want to try to recoup the losses? Don’t be such a defeatist. It can be done.

  142. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:11 pm:
    Flag comment

    redawn, why did you direct this at me:

    # redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:06 pm:

    Leila,

    “The point of course is that nobody knows exactly how many illegals hold steady jobs, or how much they pay in ss taxes that are never collected.”

    That would be because they are undocumented and cannot be found.

    That quoted statement was by COM.

  143. G Man said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:12 pm:
    Flag comment

    Part 2 of the debate is now available on YouTube @
    http://www.youtube.com/v/BWa3bLWm7W8

    Part 3 & 4 to come.

  144. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:17 pm:
    Flag comment

    # Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:11 pm:

    redawn, why did you direct this at me:

    # redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:06 pm:

    Leila,

    cannot be found.

    That quoted statement was by COM.

    Ok, I am Sorry you are right and I was just adding to that quote.

  145. Krutis said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:18 pm:
    Flag comment

    Why don’t you all go potty, brush your teeth and go to bed after Greg’s successful day on the telly!

  146. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:23 pm:
    Flag comment

    Dolph,

    A very good post. Though, I did not think I could speak in tongues.

  147. dolph said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:24 pm:
    Flag comment

    Krutis,

    Because we are all Irish and love to fight.

    Just kidding. I just had to make a racist remark about the Irish. I couldnt resist.

  148. Leila said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:24 pm:
    Flag comment

    monticup, there are many ways to send remittances home that have nothing to do with Western Union or any paperwork. There are entire academic studies of informal mechanisms involving cash or cash equivalents through immigrant networks and couriers. There are entire businesses to help people send remittances. And don’t forget, legal resident aliens and American citizens also send money to relatives in other countries in both formal and informal ways. It would be difficult in the extreme to identify which was which even in the cases in which formal mechanisms like Western Union were used.

    Getting money from the US back to one’s homeland is simple and could easily be pushed entirely underground if such a plan were enacted.

    On the “billing,” I am asking exactly what you would do to countries who did not respond to the ‘bills” that you propose. Many illegal aliens come from countries who are not recipients of foreign aid. What sanctions are you willing to put in place to collect on the bill? Would you go to war with all the countries that send us illegal aliens? Would you refuse to trade with them? Would you just refuse to trade with Mexico since it supplies the largest proportion? You would have to rescind NAFTA and a whole slew of agreements. Do you think for even a minute that will happen? Do you think for a minute that the US will do anything to risk the US capital in the line of maquiladoras along the border?

  149. dolph said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:25 pm:
    Flag comment

    COM,

    Perhaps I was just hearing in tongues.

  150. dolph said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:30 pm:
    Flag comment

    G-Man,

    Thank you for doing this. I feel guilty that I am not helping you out. I have it recorded but for the life of me, cannot figure out how to get a recording from comcast dvr to my own dvd burner. I have gone totally techno-tard.

  151. monticup said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:34 pm:
    Flag comment

    Leila: Have faith, there is always a paper trail. Try and be more optimistic. If the feds wanted to take a cut of the remittances, they could do it. Are you telling me El Salvador, Guatemala, Mexico are not recipients of US foreign aid? I find that hard to believe. All we need to do is subtract what they owe us from what we so generously give. The gravy train has to end.

  152. citizenofmanassas said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:39 pm:
    Flag comment

    Hey,

    No picking on the Irish. Speaking of GO IRISH!

  153. Ms L said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:40 pm:
    Flag comment

    So, Leila, question for you. You have at best implied that it does not bother you about identity theft, since the money earned is going back to Social Security. Ok, then, using that logic, why should we go after the madam who is dealing crack at night when during the day she holds a legitimate job? Why should we go after the priest who molests a young boy because, other than that crime, he is doing “the Lord’s work”?

    We go after them because what they are doing is against the law!!! Being in this country illegally is not a crime. Being deported, then coming back, is a felony. Overstaying your Visa, sneaking in, and then committing crimes, be it urinating in public (how many health violations there??), raping 12 year old girls, or worse, killing innocent children WHILE residing in this country is basically the straw that broke the proverbial camel’s back. If illegals would not shove it in our face and just obey the laws of this land, we probably would not be having this debate because no one would know who they are. But these jokers are flaunting and giving US the finger by their actions.

    And how many times have we had to tell you, we are NOT AGAINST IMMIGRANTS!!! If the person is illegal and they are from Dublin, I will be just as happy when they get deported as if they were from Nuevo Laredo.

  154. redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:49 pm:
    Flag comment

    Ms L said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:40 pm:

    “Being in this country illegally is not a crime. Being deported, then coming back, is a felony”

    MS.L.

    You made very good points. I thought being in this country illegaly is a crime. Fist time offender is a misdemenor but it is a crime. Am I wrong?

  155. Lafayette said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:56 pm:
    Flag comment

    Dolph
    Techno tard, that’s even better than a friend saying I was digitally challenged. Well, at least they are my FRIEND!

  156. dolph said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:05 am:
    Flag comment

    Lafayette,

    I am under the impression that you are making great strides in overcoming the great techno-tard disability tonight. Little chickens told me so.

  157. redawn said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:05 am:
    Flag comment

    # redawn said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:11 pm:

    # TH said on 31 Aug 2007 at 11:04 pm:

    redawn,
    “Fraud is Fraud, Stealing is Stealing. ONE VICTIM IS TO MANY esp., if the VICTIMIZER IS ILLEGAL! AND MANY MILLIONS OF VICTIMS ARE THE ONES WHO LOOSE OUT AND WHEN THEY DO, WHO HAS TO PAY?”
    Are you sure that you are not Lou Dobbs. You just sound like a tape recorder and you haven’t prove your point. Leila has a point. Some money from SSN comes from illegal aliens. That’s it.

    TH,

    Ok. I get that point. What about my point about the VICTIMS of SS fraud, WHO pays for such a crime?

    By the way, I like Lou Dobbs and I also think that Bill O’Riley is kinda sexy in his own what, maybe it’s the way he holds his pen. What does that prove?

    TH,
    “Tick ,tock ,tick, tock the mouse ran up the clock”, It is Midnight and I waited for you to reply. Talk to you soon.” :)

  158. dolph said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:09 am:
    Flag comment

    redawn,

    Tick tock, tick, tock, that mousie was a Manassas RAT. Run Redawn run!

    Bill O sexy? OMG! We will take up a collection for lasix surgery.

  159. Leila said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:10 am:
    Flag comment

    Monticup, there isn’t a paper trail when the money goes in cash. And those not doing it in cash would definitely move to that if other methods were impeded. Plus, as I said, plenty of remittances are sent by immigrants who have legal status. Some of that money goes by Western Union, some goes by informal courier networks. There is even a special name for the informal remittance networks which I will remember at some point. Sometimes it involves carrying cash, sometimes it involves a complex system of guaranteed IOUs paid here and then paid in the foreign country on that credit.

    I think it is interesting you have such faith in paper trails. There is an entire cash economy in the United States involving citizens with no paper trail either. There are lots of economic activities that leave no paper trail and that nobody ever cares about.

    US foreign aid to Mexico is negligible, really tiny, about $31 million. There are 3 Latin American countries in the top 16 foreign aid recipients: Colombia, Peru, and Bolivia. All because of the drug war and all dwarfing Mexico’s amount. Of course nobody compares to the top two foreign aid recipients, Israel #1 and Egypt, #2, who each get billions not millions.

  160. Ms L said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:12 am:
    Flag comment

    Redawn: As it was explained to me, no crime. If so there would be MASS deportations, but there aren’t. Even if it is a crime, it would be the equivalent of going 65 in a 55…they are waiting for the big law breakers. But, at various meetings I have attended on the subject, multiple people have said the same thing, sneaking into this country is not a crime in and of itself, though I would argue trespassing

  161. citizenofmanassas said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:13 am:
    Flag comment

    Dolph,

    Don’t joke like that. We have a rat issue here in Wellington and management blames it on GTS, and the increase in littering that has happened over the last few years. Of course in the same time frame we have also had an increase in homes that are not taken care of, and an increase in overcrowded homes.

    Though, I suppose I should look at the positive, we have more wildlife to view.

  162. redawn said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:16 am:
    Flag comment

    Ms L,
    Thanks for the explanation, I did not know that.

    Dolph,
    Beauty is in the EYE of the beholder and only skin deep….LOL, Yes I though about those RATS.. LOL talk to you tomorrow :)

    Lafayette,
    Speaking of RATTS….your turn….ROUND & ROUND…..talk to you tomorrow:)

  163. Ms L said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:19 am:
    Flag comment

    Leila: There is another type of aid to Mexico coming from the US. It’s those who have left their families behind, and 50% of their earnings that are NOT taxed (ask any construction worker) go straight back to mother Mexico. Before long, this source of funds will surpass oil funds.

    I heard from a co-worker that someone in the Mexican govt was recently hired who used to be an illegal alien. She was vauge on the details but I do believe what she said as she usually gets the story right, just slim on all the facts. Has anyone else heard of this?

  164. dolph said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:23 am:
    Flag comment

    COM,

    We have them here on this end also. I just have not seen one. Only mice. My house is almost 40 years old so I know the little critters know all the ways to squeeze in come cold weather.

    I think the rat problems start out at the shopping centers up on Sudley Road over here. However, if trash is allowed to sit all over the place, like over by Patty and Lafayette’s, (their famous truck of trash) the rats will soon find their way down here where the grass is greener and there is less rat competition.

    We do have huge possoms though. I guess I can’t blame that on anyone but Mother Nature.

  165. Sals said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:24 am:
    Flag comment

    There was a court ruling that said that being here illegally is not a crime. That doesn’t exclude it from being a crime to cross the border illegally. Ms L, how can an act that breaks a law not be a crime? Sneaking into this country is a crime. The reason that there are not MASS deportations has more to do with resources and lack of will to do so.

  166. Lafayette said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:29 am:
    Flag comment

    redawn
    Round and Round, you know it.

  167. citizenofmanassas said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:35 am:
    Flag comment

    Dolph,

    I’d love to see pictures of that truck. Management here is really taking the issue seriously, they realize if they do not get the issue under control Wellington will be a lost cause.

    Leila,

    If 31 million is a tiny sum of money, I’d like to know what you consider a large amount of money is. BTW, how much foreign aid does Mexico send us?

  168. Leila said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:35 am:
    Flag comment

    Miss L, I didn’t say I didn’t care about identity theft. I said use of fraudulent documents is a crime whether someone has stolen someone else’s identity or not. That’s true no matter who does it. And obviously if identity theft is involved then innocent people may suffer the consequences.

    My post was entirely about whether or not illegal aliens pay SS and payroll taxes. A very large proportion of them do.

    Illegal aliens commit a far smaller percentage of the sorts of violent heinous crimes you describe than American citizens do, but obviously any violent heinous crime is terrible and the people involved should clearly be pursued. In the recent Newark triple murder case, the fact that two of the six accused are illegal aliens has received a lot of attention, which is entirely understandable, but that isn’t typical of murders in Newark or other places. Most murderers in this country are home grown. Most people never cared about Newark’s high violent crime rate until this happened. There is an interesting comment from the parent of one of the victims in an article in today’s Post.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/30/AR2007083000988.html

    In terms of using a 7-11 wall or other structure for public urination, I would agree that is disgusting. I would suggest having a day laborer center with a toilet. Perhaps if we had such facilities all over in DC as well one would not see so much public urination from people who are not illegal aliens, but just drunk or homeless or uncouth. It is not exactly an infrequent sight in the city and when you don’t see it, you know it is happening anyway for obvious reasons.

    I am glad you are not against immigrants. There is an allied movement that in favor of drastically cutting back all immigration, but I am happy you are not a part of it and that you are not one of those who objects to having a lot of immigrants around.

  169. citizenofmanassas said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:37 am:
    Flag comment

    Mrs. L,

    I believe the former illegal alien was the lady who was holed up in a Chicago Church for a year while under a deportation order. This was her second illegal entry. She wants to be a “peace” ambassador to the United States.

  170. citizenofmanassas said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:46 am:
    Flag comment

    Leila,

    The outrage in Newark is due to the fact one illegal had runs in with the law before this killing. Yet, because Newark supports illegals(they do not care about immigration status) this person was never handed over to the Feds for deportation.

    People get outraged all the time about crimes. Ever hear about the Scott Peterson case? The O.J. Simpson case?

    Do you wonder why Virginia pretty much put an end to parole? People were sick and tired of folks who did not serve a full term prison sentence and once out were back to committing crimes.

    America had enough with DUI, and thus many States over the last ten years have passed laws to increase the penalty for dui.

    Same goes for child molestation. States have also listened and increased penalties for those that molest children.

    So, why is it hard to understand why folks are reacting to illegals the way they are. And why some States are taking measures to combat illegals and the crimes they commit.

  171. dolph said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:50 am:
    Flag comment

    COM,

    I believe Patty or lafayette have pics of that famous winged truck. Check with them. It really was a sight to behold.

  172. G Man said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:51 am:
    Flag comment

    If anyone is still awake Part 3 of the debate is now available on YouTube @

    http://www.youtube.com/v/yAAbHQbTd_E

    Part 4 is only 40 seconds. I will load tonight and put the link up in the morning.

  173. Leila said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:51 am:
    Flag comment

    COM, $31 million is not a small amount of money in our everyday terms. It is a small amount of money in terms of major recipients of US foreign aid, especially to a country with as big a population as Mexico’s, which is over 108 million. Compare that to more than $3 bilion for the top aid recipient, which has a population of seven million. Compare that to Egypt, the number 2 recipient, with just over $2 billion I believe, and a population of 80 million.

    I was speaking about Mexico in relative terms to the top 16 foreign aid recipients as I made crystal clear. But in any case, removing that aid to Mexico would be nothing in the face of the billions in remittance money Mexico gets so it would hardly be any kind of incentive. At best it would be a feeble gesture of protest.

    The large amount of money in question vis a vis Mexico is the remittance money, not remotely the foreign aid money. Now if you want to talk about Israeli or Egyptian illegal aliens, then withholding billions in aid would be significant.

  174. Leila said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:54 am:
    Flag comment

    COM, you are correct about the outrage in Newark being about the fact the guy was on the streets. But that would be the case about any felon as the parent of one of the victims points out.

    “In news reports, relatives of the victims and Newark residents have insisted that the problem is not immigration. James Harvey, father of one of the students killed, sees it as a failure of the criminal justice system. As he told The Washington Post, regardless of whether the suspect with a criminal record was a “citizen of our country or not, he was prone to violence and he should not have been released.”

  175. citizenofmanassas said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:56 am:
    Flag comment

    Leila,

    Mexico is also one of the richest Nations as well. So, they really do not need to receive a lot of foreign aid from us. If they enacted real economic reforms and stopped dumping on the majority of their Citizens, they would be a far better Nation, and would not have to worry about 31 million from us, or remittance money for that matter.

  176. citizenofmanassas said on 1 Sep 2007 at 12:58 am:
    Flag comment

    Leila,

    Exactly. People do not want crime period. So, why do so many folks make excuses for illegals? When in reality, most folks want all criminals off the street.

  177. dolph said on 1 Sep 2007 at 1:01 am:
    Flag comment

    I am going to go out on a limb and make the assertion that we really have no way to know about how many crimes are committed in the Hispanic community. Let’s just say, up until fairly recently, I was in a position to ‘hear stories.’

    Many crimes against Hispanics often go unreported because of the status situation. Often offenses are handled within the community, which is why it isn’t unusual for someone to end up at the emergency room with the living hell beaten out of them. The illegal status has created an underworld in the Hispanic community. It isn’t turn the other cheeck. It is eye for an eye.

    Much of the righting of wrongs just never makes it to the police blotters or the newpaper. It is just handled. Unknown assailants? Not in all cases. Some of them know damn good and well who assaulted them and they KNOW why.

  178. Leila said on 1 Sep 2007 at 1:02 am:
    Flag comment

    COM, “if” being the operative word. Meanwhile, the 23 billion or more in remittances have become essential to the well being of the Mexican poor and a large portion of that is from illegal aliens.

  179. dolph said on 1 Sep 2007 at 1:02 am:
    Flag comment

    correction: cheeck = cheek doh!!!

  180. citizenofmanassas said on 1 Sep 2007 at 1:05 am:
    Flag comment

    Leila,

    And why do you think the Mexican Government does not take steps to enact reforms? Why should we be a safety valve for them?

    Dolph,

    Very good points. They are additional reasons to clean up the illegal alien issue.

  181. Leila said on 1 Sep 2007 at 1:07 am:
    Flag comment

    COM, many people do not feel as you do that the crime of being here illegally and working illegally is equivalent to other sorts of crimes. They want anyone off the streets who commits violent crime, or major property crime. But they do not get as excited as you do about the crime of being out of immigration status or working illegally. Even the federal government makes illegal entry a misdemeanor not a felony unless it is repeated. But take heart, your movement is growing and perhaps one day everyone will consider an illegal alien as serious a criminal as you do even if he or she doesn’t commit a violent crime.

  182. Leila said on 1 Sep 2007 at 1:10 am:
    Flag comment

    COM, Considering that the United States has a greater disparity between rich and poor than any of our counterparts, one might ask the same question here. In any case, Mexico is doing no different than many similar countries. As for us, we are next door so the safety valve question is irrelevant essentially. Even a wall won’t work as everyone knows. Not that it will ever be built all along the border. Got to dash for a bit.

  183. citizenofmanassas said on 1 Sep 2007 at 1:17 am:
    Flag comment

    Leila,

    I am hardly the only one to think correctly on this issue. This is hardly only about illegal entry, since as we have discussed many illegals engage in other criminal activity.

    Besides, many illegals come and go across the border all the time, December is a very busy time on the border since many folks go home for Christmas. Many school districts in the West see a huge decrease in hispanics at the same time.

    Leila,

    Seems the KKK might be on the other side as well. I found this on Snopes.

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/hispanic.asp

  184. citizenofmanassas said on 1 Sep 2007 at 1:18 am:
    Flag comment

    Edit. Seems the KKK might be on the other side.

  185. AWCheney said on 1 Sep 2007 at 1:31 am:
    Flag comment

    “…many illegal aliens, perhaps as many as 40-50% do have SS…” (Leila)

    Yes Leila…but where do those SSNs come from, hmmm? One point regarding that particular matter has not been addressed in this thread, and all other arguments pale in its face…what about the children? The thousands upon thousands of children (50,000 discovered in Utah alone last year) who have had their identity stolen, most of whom will not find out until such time as they attempt to establish credit, or even apply for educational loans or assistance; the thousands of young people who are already faced with rebuilding lives that have been stolen from them when they were mere children; how about the fact that the most vulnerable of these children are the ones who have Hispanic surnames…how about all that?? Based upon what you are saying, that’s irrelevant because the money is going to Social Security. I guess it doesn’t matter that, more often than not, those people stealing those SSNs run up debt as well (thanks to enablers like Bank of America and others) and then, if something goes wrong, cut and run leaving the REAL holder of that SSN holding the bag. Do you see nothing wrong with that???

    And Leila, about that $7 Billion/year collected by Social Security from these people, I say, “WOW!,” because that MAY just cover the annual cost of those Section 8 Housing benefits that they are getting illegally from HUD…but it’s not nearly enough to cover ALL the benefits they are illegally collecting, particularly those at the State and Local level. Makes that argument rather absurd wouldn’t you say Leila?

  186. AWCheney said on 1 Sep 2007 at 2:06 am:
    Flag comment

    “Someone was saying yesterday how his/her stepson was suffering because he has to compete for a job at Walmart.” (TH)

    The only “stepson” anecdote that I recall, TH, was from me…and it wasn’t related in any way as you seem to recall. It is not like you to take things so out of context and make gross assumptions. I suggest that you go back and read it again, and we can discuss it.

  187. Leila said on 1 Sep 2007 at 2:19 am:
    Flag comment

    AWCheney, I guess you didn’t read all the posts on taxation. I was responding to one issue in JM’s post, which was whether or not illegal aliens pay SS and payroll taxes. I am not sure what argument that you are referring to as “absurd” is since I wasn’t making any argument at all, much less along the lines you suggest. I was just stating a fact regarding the fact money is collected and that a large proportion of illegal aliens have jobs that involve steady paychecks with taxes withheld. I already noted too that the SS numbers were fraudulent and that in cases that involved identity theft, innocent people could suffer. I never claimed anything about the SS money compensating for anything, any crime, any theft, any expenditure. So none of what you appear to be quite agitated about was in any of my posts, unless of course you are very agitated about the existence of $7 billion.

    COM, I think I made it clear that many agree with you on this issue. Although it is interesting to note that the one Republican candidate, Tancredo, who has made illegal immigration his flagship concern is not even close to being a frontrunner. That may be because he is too much of a loose cannon to put it mildly. It will be interesting to see how this issue plays out. I have a feeling it is no more or less than a Republican rallying the faithful base issue like abortion and gay marriage. I don’t think any of the Republicans likely to win the nomination will depart much from Bush’s policies on illegal immigration once in office since the Republicans are the party of business. But I could well be wrong.

  188. dolph said on 1 Sep 2007 at 3:16 am:
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    The entire identity theft business boils my blood every time I have to shred mail. Anything that comes in to my house with either of our names on it gets shredded. Frankly, it is a real pain having to dispose of every single piece of mail.

    The real worry, of course, is the social security numbers being used by others. I don’t even think we have even begun to explore all the legal ramifications of this nightmare. We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg now over these stolen numbers.

    I just cannot blow off the fact that 40-50% of illegal aliens are becoming documented on the backs of our social security identity. Part of me wonders if this is the reason why our government is so laissez-faire about illegal immigration in the first place…in order to off-set social security shortages. Then I tell myself nahhh…couldn’t be happening.

    At any rate, this is a hideous crime and certainly not victimless.

    In defense of Leilah, I don’t think she was saying it was ok, I think she was saying it happens. Perhaps her outrage wasn’t obvious enough for most of us.

    As a person who is not too far off from collecting my pittence from the government, I want every last penny to be there. I am greedy and I feel I have earned it.

  189. AWCheney said on 1 Sep 2007 at 5:30 am:
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    “AWCheney, I guess you didn’t read all the posts on taxation….I am not sure what argument that you are referring to as “absurd” is since I wasn’t making any argument at all, much less along the lines you suggest.”

    Your problem, Leila, is that I DID read each and every post and pulled a number of quotes out of your comments (I’d be happy to post them, but I doubt that Greg would be…it would take up way too much space) which, when read as a string, show how you are subtly using those statements (illegals paying SS and Withholding) to, in fact, argue your case that these illegal aliens are good, taxpaying members of society. Pretty slick, Leila. The fact that they have stolen identities and are, as a group, still partaking of far more from the public trough than they are contributing through breaking the law would seem to be totally irrelevant to you. That’s the absurd argument.

  190. AWCheney said on 1 Sep 2007 at 6:20 am:
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    TH, I just went back to the “Fun With Protesters” thread where you apparently left a comment in response to mine, to which I take exception and have responded. You might want to take a look.

  191. The Patriot said on 1 Sep 2007 at 7:52 am:
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    Leila, Tancredo is actually doing quite well. More and more people are hearing his VERY IMPORTANT (THE MOST IMPORTANT) message of resolving our illegal immigration problems. Make sure you vote for him too!

  192. The Patriot said on 1 Sep 2007 at 7:54 am:
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    Leila, have you signed the eliminate birthright citizenship (to get rid of the anchor baby loophole) petition and the governor’s petition yet? Please do so right now!

  193. manassascityresident said on 1 Sep 2007 at 9:18 am:
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    COM -
    I too live in Wellington -
    You and I need to walk the community to recruit for HSM!
    Let me know if you’re interested.

  194. citizenofmanassas said on 1 Sep 2007 at 9:43 am:
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    Leila,

    Of course you completely ignore the racists on your side. Ha ha. Gotcha you again.

    Tom T is doing just fine Sure, he most likely will not win and has said as much, though he is pulling everyone to this issue. I guess you have missed the Mitt and Rudy fighting going on about illegal immigration.

    The fact is that a vast majority of Americans are against illegals, and want illegal immigration to stop. You are in the vast vast minority of Americans.

    One thing for sure, whoever is nominated for the GOP is going to be far better then anybody that is nominated by the Dem’s.

    Dolph,

    The problem with Leila, is that she tosses in well there are American law breakers, and this tax issue as a soft defense for illegals, as if because we have our own law breakers, and people who do not pay taxes as an excuse as to why we should not be upset with illegals.

  195. citizenofmanassas said on 1 Sep 2007 at 9:45 am:
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    ManassasCity,

    Sure, I love to go around…… Do you want to pick a time and place to meet. so we can talk more about this? I am pretty much free during the week in the evenings, and for at least this week during the day as well.

  196. josh said on 1 Sep 2007 at 10:14 am:
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    how about we park ICE right outside the western unions (like the state police guard the HOV lanes)

    that would really hurt them where it counts, the wallet!

  197. Sals said on 1 Sep 2007 at 10:14 am:
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    Leila, I do not dispute that illegals do pay payroll taxes with false SSN’s. There are SS, medicare, federal and state taxes. The percentage taken out for SS and medicare combined is 7.65% regardless of the number of dependents one has. Amount of federal and state taxes withheld can be and is manipulated by changing the number of dependents. While an illegal may unavoidable be paying his fair share of FICA, he quite easily avoids paying federal and state withholding by claiming a high number of dependents on his W-4.

    When I think of taxes, I think of federal and state taxes as well as real estate and personal property tax. At this point in my life SS is not relevant to me other than the % that is withheld from my check. On the other hand, all the other taxes are what pays for government. That is where illegal aliens as a whole absolutely do not pay their fair share. Whether it is by lying on the W-4, working under the table, simply not filing a return, living 2-3 familes in a house, not claiming rental income for boarders or any combination of these strategies, they evade their fair share of the tax burden.

    One example of unavoidable compliance doesn’t excuse rampant and willful tax evasion.

  198. manassascityresident said on 1 Sep 2007 at 10:30 am:
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    COM -
    Definitely! Perphaps next Saturday AM? And as you mentioned, we can get together before that . I’m good on Monday PM, and Tuesday day.

    btw, have you ever noticed the house on the corner of clover hill and Strawflower? Open screen door and many vans (though it’s been better lately, not as many trucks.)….I wonder if they all headed to Fairfax???

  199. dolph said on 1 Sep 2007 at 1:06 pm:
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    COM,

    There is a big article on NCLB in the New York Times online today. The gist of the article, I think, is that the politicians are tinkering with it to gear it more towards the middle class. My take is that the politicians will probably screw it up even worse, if that is humanly possible.

    I guess the good news is that it isn’t going to get a rubber stamp renewal.

  200. redawn said on 1 Sep 2007 at 1:57 pm:
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    I just had a very neat experience. For all those “old schooler’s” of Prince William County that remember the Hirsch Farm and Kilnes Icream on Rt 28.(toward Nokesville) You need to listen up.

    There is an Estate sale on Godwin on the right after Wellington Rd. Right before the radio station and before you get to George Mason.

    This place is the Klines Farm. It is the LAST dairy farm in Manassas.

    Iwas greeted by this very, kind gentleman by the Name of Roy (I think his last name is Parker) HE IS A WEALTH of history from the past.

    There are also items for sale from the Hirsch Farm, INCLUDING “Granny’s egg basket”.

    I plan to go back.
    Roy told me the history of the Hirsch’s and the Kilnes. It was a blast from the past, a walk down memory road.
    Please if you have time over the 3 day weekend, stop by. There are some BEAUTIFUL antique finds!
    After the visit is complete, why not get an icecream cone from Klines?

  201. citizenofmanassas said on 1 Sep 2007 at 2:22 pm:
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    Dolph,

    Of course they will. That is why Washington needs to stay out of the Education business. Let the local and State Governments take care of it.

  202. Leila said on 1 Sep 2007 at 3:44 pm:
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    Patriot, I would be interested in hearing how Tom Tancredo is doing “quite well” as you say in the contest to win the Republican presidential nomination.

    I guess all the polls and other measurements have ignored his apparent frontrunner status across the nation. But you have your own sources of the real statistics I am sure, so please share them with us.

    I have no interest in voting for Tancredo. He is certifiable. But since you are so eager, make sure it is in the primary because he isn’t going any farther if that. I don’t even think he has a chance as the number 2 on the ticket given his recent forays into foreign-policy threat making. But again, you have that secret information on how he is doing “quite well.”

    I suspect that this assessment from the 8/29 Dallas Morning News is rather more accurate and persuasive. It is written by Mark Davis, self-described as passionate on the issue of illegal immigration, in an Opinion piece called “Will one issue drive the election?”

    “Not necessarily. My passion for this issue prods me to think (or is it hope?) that border issues rank high at the polls. But objectivity forces me to consider evidence to the contrary.

    The strongest candidates on the borders, congressmen Duncan Hunter and Tom Tancredo, are mired in obscurity. While some states (like Texas) and some constituencies (like talk show listeners) are in high dudgeon over immigration, polls show an appreciable chunk of Americans ambivalent about it, even to the point of favoring the guest worker program that is kryptonite to hard-liners.”

    I have no interest in signing the petition you mention. I respect the US Constitution, the 14th Amendment, and our American tradition of birthright citizenship and do not wish to change its provisions.

  203. The Patriot said on 1 Sep 2007 at 5:04 pm:
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    Leila, you can do your own research. I am fairly certain that you will be voting for Hillary anyway! You use statistics based on “your” (yes “your”) liberal media that you love so much! Anyone with any sense of intelligence knows that the media is liberal biased and does not give equal time to all candidates.

  204. Leila said on 1 Sep 2007 at 5:26 pm:
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    Patriot, did you read the article I linked to? It is an opinion piece by Mark Davis, someone who shares with you a deep opposition to illegal immigration and he is the one calling Tancredo “mired in obscurity” and doubting if this issue will be as pivotal to the election as he wishes. There isn’t a poll or a Republican source in the world that shows Tancredo is doing “quite well” as you stated, not in the mainstream media, not in any other media.

    Such data don’t exist because he isn’t. Now you are saying the media doesn’t give equal time to all candidates, I would not dispute that. That may be part of the reason Tancredo is not doing “quite well” as you said, but I think the main reason is that he is certifiable.

    I am not a supporter of Hillary Clinton, not by a mile. Her manner and personality don’t appeal to me in the least and I don’t like how she lied about her support for the war. She also comes up short on issues of free speech like flag burning, which the Supreme Court has ruled twice is constitutionally protected expression. Just as I support the 14th Amendment, I support the First Amendment as well.

    So I’m afraid your assumption in that regard is dead wrong. But then it was just offered as an insult, not actually based on any evidence as usual.

  205. citizenofmanassas said on 1 Sep 2007 at 9:34 pm:
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    Leila,

    If America is so much like Mexico, why do we have Millions of people who want to come here, and very few that want to leave here. Again, you are self loathing. You simply cannot bash anyone but America and Americans. If you are so upset with our system, why don’t you leave the Country and move to Cuba or even to Mexico? I know why, despite your self loathing, you realize America is a great Nation, although, you can’t admit that because it runs counter to your liberal group think.

    I just don’t understand you liberals, while you will defend tooth and nail some stupid Commie or socialists, you bash America. Do you think you can live in Cuba and openly bash the Government? Of course not. America is a far better Nation then Mexico and any other third word cesspool. Like I said, if that was not the case, why do we have millions of people wanting to come here?

    Again, I would point out that thankfully, you are in the very small minority when it comes to your support of illegals. What polls are you talking about, and exactly how is the question asked?

  206. freedom said on 2 Sep 2007 at 10:12 am:
    Flag comment

    Leila, wait a minute, check out the reference that Citizen of Manassas gave. It pretty well cuts to the meat of the issue:

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/hispanic.asp

    Now, which side are you on, anyway? If this invasion is allowed to continue, our country will be no better then the one from which the illegal aliens have fled.

  207. AWCheney said on 2 Sep 2007 at 7:35 pm:
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    “If this invasion is allowed to continue, our country will be no better then the one from which the illegal aliens have fled.”

    This is why my husband and I sometimes think wistfully of retiring to New Zealand. Just one problem…they don’t accept anyone over 56 as a permanent resident unless they invest at least $1M in an approved business venture (gotta win the lottery). If we were younger, it wouldn’t be a problem…both my husband and son (as soon as he finishes school) have skills which are highly sought there (my son loves the idea of New Zealand as well). You see, they have MUCH, MUCH higher immigration standards than we have in this country…and zero tolerance for illegal aliens.

  208. Leila said on 2 Sep 2007 at 8:49 pm:
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    Hi Freedom, sorry, I just now saw your question to me. The quotes on Snopes are offensive, Do you honestly think someone couldn’t come up with equally offensive and racially inflammatory quotes from your side? I think it would be fairly simple.

    I am not sure what you mean by:

    “If this invasion is allowed to continue, our country will be no better then the one from which the illegal aliens have fled.”

    First, there isn’t ONE country right? Or are you just talking about Mexicans and all the Salvadorans and others here (who are the majority in this area) can stay? I’m sorry, but I just do not buy the notion that illegal aliens from all over the world are transforming the United States into something unrecognizable. That was also the accusation in the Ellis Island era and the Famine era. I also don’t think of it as an invasion, but I understand your use of the term. On this blog, people claim to only oppose illegal immigration. But many people who talk about an invasion want to cut back on all immigration, especially of the non-white variety. There are predictions that the United States will eventually have white people (whatever those are, the definitions vary) as a minority. I kind of doubt it, but if that is a concern for those people, I would suggest opening the doors to all the very -white-indeed people of Poland and other Eastern European countries since right now they are incensed that they are not even on the visa waiver program for tourism because of fears they will blend into the large communities of illegal and legal EE immigrants in places like Chicago.

    But perhaps having white people (again, whatever those are) as a minority isn’t your concern. Can you say exactly how a country of 301 million people has been altered as to be unrecognizable or is about to be? This is a very big place. I accept the notion that neighborhoods in M and MP are altered, but I think you are wildly exaggerating in terms of the entire country at large or how people feel about it.

    I’m not on a side. I am in favor of addressing problems as they occur, for example, in overcrowding. I believe in fixing behavior. Apart from that, I am for immigration reform that is humane and reflects the real needs of our economy, or I should say economies, since different regions have very different needs.

  209. freedom said on 3 Sep 2007 at 10:41 am:
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    Leila, you soooo much fail to get it. Just why do you suppose those who come here (or stay here) illegally do so? It has nothing to do with race, it has nothing to do with skin color… and I know of no one who opposes immigration. Our country welcomes immigrants. We do not welcome those who come here in violation of our laws…and that is what I addressed with the term “illegal invasion.”

    People are entering this country illegally by the millions each year…and I submit that for the most part, their reason in coming and staying is because of economic opportunity that the country from which they fled does not offer.

    It would be wonderful if we could accept and absorb all of those people ad infinitum…remember, there are billions of impoverished people of all races and nationalities on this earth…and all of them would love to improve their lives. However, if this illegal invasion is allowed to continue unchecked, there will soon be insufficient agriculture jobs, insufficient construction jobs, and insufficient gardening jobs etc to accommodate all of them. If this illegal invasion is allowed to continue unchecked … and we won’t deny them education; we won’t allow them to die outside the hospital doors…the financial burden we see today will be magnified a hundred times over…we pay taxes for a number of reasons, one of whiich is to help those who can not (or will not) help themselves.

    My reference to, “If this invasion is allowed to continue, our country will be no better then the one from which the illegal aliens have fled” pertains to all aspects of society — economic, social and political. I want my children and my grandchildren to enjoy opportunity as I enjoy…and Leila, please stop the racism thing. The issue is not race at all; the issue is pragmatism.

  210. Leila said on 3 Sep 2007 at 11:39 am:
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    Freedom, What I said in my post is that there are many who want to to cut back drastically on all immigration to the United States, particularly from the non-white third world. You apparently are not aware of the existence of such individuals and groups. I find that hard to believe since they all have websites.

  211. freedom said on 3 Sep 2007 at 11:50 am:
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    I never did pretend to speak for “everyone,” Leila….

  212. freedom said on 3 Sep 2007 at 12:43 pm:
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    …and Leila, we have immigration quotas that can and should be adjusted (of course, there may be those who wish for drastic cut back, and in our country, that wish is their prerogative) but those quotas of legal immigrants should be adjusted either up or down in terms of numbers and types of skills that are needed in this country….thus making the “American dream” versus permanent poverty available to immigrants as well.

    What we do NOT need is uncontrolled millions and millions of “wander across the border at will” illegal aliens.

  213. Leila said on 3 Sep 2007 at 2:19 pm:
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    Freedom, I’m sorry. I guess I misunderstood your statement here:

    “It has nothing to do with race, it has nothing to do with skin color… and I know of no one who opposes immigration. ”

    Personally, if I said I know of noone, it would mean just that, noone. So when you said that, given that this is your issue, I was surprised since it is quite clear that there is an entire lobbying movement dedicating to cutting back *legal* immigration, particularly from the third world, and they are no secret.

  214. freedom said on 3 Sep 2007 at 2:27 pm:
    Flag comment

    …and your point is, Leila??

  215. citizenofmanassas said on 3 Sep 2007 at 3:56 pm:
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    Leila,

    Maybe I missed your post, and I apoligize if you did reply, however, it does not appear that you have.

    I’m still waiting….. and waiting, and waiting.

  216. Leila said on 3 Sep 2007 at 6:32 pm:
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    COM, I am not sure which of your posts you are referring to. But I will just take what I see as an actual question in the last one, as opposed to a string of insults and non sequiturs that you also offer.

    By polls I was referring to measurements of public opinion regarding which of the Republican candidates are considered frontrunners or have a reasonable possibility of gaining the nomination. There is no indication that Tancredo has a chance in hell. Well maybe in hell.

    Tancredo made illegal immigration his major issue, but it doesn’t appear to have helped his campaign much, especially after his recent foreign-policy remarks. But others using the same issue will likely be more successful since they aren’t certifiable.

  217. citizenofmanassas said on 3 Sep 2007 at 10:27 pm:
    Flag comment

    Leila,

    Here is my post…….

    citizenofmanassas said on 1 Sep 2007 at 9:34 pm:
    Leila,

    If America is so much like Mexico, why do we have Millions of people who want to come here, and very few that want to leave here. Again, you are self loathing. You simply cannot bash anyone but America and Americans. If you are so upset with our system, why don’t you leave the Country and move to Cuba or even to Mexico? I know why, despite your self loathing, you realize America is a great Nation, although, you can’t admit that because it runs counter to your liberal group think.

    I just don’t understand you liberals, while you will defend tooth and nail some stupid Commie or socialist, you bash America. Do you think you can live in Cuba and openly bash the Government? Of course not. America is a far better Nation then Mexico and any other third word cesspool. Like I said, if that was not the case, why do we have millions of people wanting to come here?

    Again, I would point out that thankfully, you are in the very small minority when it comes to your support of illegals. What polls are you talking about, and exactly how is the question asked?

  218. Leila said on 3 Sep 2007 at 11:01 pm:
    Flag comment

    COM i just answered your question at the end already.

  219. citizenofmanassas said on 4 Sep 2007 at 8:54 am:
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    Leila,

    No, you did not. You claimed that America was no better then Mexico was and there was a greater wealth disparity between the rich and the poor in American then there was in Mexico.

    I asked if that was the case, why is it that millions of people want to come here as opposed to wanting to go to Mexico? As I said, you are just self loathing, and you tow the typical liberal line, that attempts to say there is no difference in cultures, Nations etc.

    Face it, while you loath living in America, you also realize despite what you wish, and are hope for, America is still the greatest Nation in the World, and that is why you are still here, and sucking off the spoils.

    Here is your post that I replied to. Of course the safety valve matters. You simply cannot admit Mexico is poorly run, because again, you simply cannot bring yourself to bash anyone but America. Why do you hate America so much? Would you rather live in China? Cuba? Some cesspool in Central America? Of course not, you don’t have the walk to back up the talk…

    COM, Considering that the United States has a greater disparity between rich and poor than any of our counterparts, one might ask the same question here. In any case, Mexico is doing no different than many similar countries. As for us, we are next door so the safety valve question is irrelevant essentially. Even a wall won’t work as everyone knows. Not that it will ever be built all along the border. Got to dash for a bit.

  220. Leila said on 4 Sep 2007 at 9:33 am:
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    COM, you appear to have misunderstood what I said, perhaps deliberately. I don’t know. But your vitriol, your wild leaps, are getting truly tedious.

    First I never said America was “no better than Mexico.” You need to stop twisting people’s words. What I said relates to my regret that in terms of our COUNTERPARTS (Mexico is not our counterpart) we stand out in terms of income disparities, lack of universal health care, etc. In all kinds of measurements of health, education, etc. the US ranks quite low in relation to our COUNTERPARTS, and sometimes even lower in certain measures, like infant mortality, than countries that aren’t our counterparts.

    When I said Mexico is doing no different from many similar countries, I was clearly talking (note the word “similar”) about third-world countries with vast natural resources that do not use those resources to improve the lot of their poor. Of course it is poorly run. The rich in Mexico benefit from that. US capital benefits from it too as one can see in the ring of maquiladoras. None of this is uncommon. All around the world there are countries with robber-baron upper classes that neglect the poor.

    I don’t loathe America or living in it. With all our country’s faults, I cherish much about it, above all its Constitutional traditions and its diversity. You can keep repeating until you turn blue that I hate America, am self-loathing as an American, etc. etc., But it doesn’t make it true and I really wish you would refrain from the constant tactic of insult. It also makes you look exceedingly immature and it makes you one of the people most active in lowering the tenor of debate on BVBL.

    You keep bringing up Cuba, before it was Venezuela, now it is China. You appear obsessed with these socialist or pseudo-socialist nations and obsessed with linking them to me, despite the fact I haven’t ever once expressed approval of their policies or leaders. In fact with Venezuela and Cuba I have previously expressed disapproval of their leaders. It is just some knee-jerk thing you trot out and again it shows great immaturity. I don’t think labeling any Central American country a “cesspool” is called for either. Why is that language necessary? Why insult Costa Ricans, Hondurans, Guatemalans, etc. with such terminology? Why is your language so constantly in the gutter?

    I can see I was unclear or mispoke about the safety valve. I don’t disagree with you about Mexico using the US as a safety valve. What I didn’t say correctly, was regardless of whether the Mexican govenrment has that intent or not, what is important is our proximity and the total impossibility of any kind of wall or fence solving the problem. If it gets built along the entire border, which is a big IF, it will certainly not be secure because there are not enough people to man it, especially not now. Not even close. Places that have built walls or fences across far tinier borderlines have not managed to keep those barriers secure and this is a border of thousands of miles. It’s a panacea directed at people like you. It is a joke.

  221. Leila said on 4 Sep 2007 at 9:53 am:
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    PS: Correction, although estimates vary, according to folks in your movement, http://www.borderfenceproject.com/ the border is 48 miles short of 2,000, so “thousands of miles” is technically incorrect.
    That missing 48, however, doesn’t make it any less a joke.

  222. AWCheney said on 4 Sep 2007 at 3:46 pm:
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    COM, if you haven’t noticed yet, Leila is thoroughly enjoying herself playing the “Devil’s Advocate”…and doing it well. You are rapidly becoming her favorite foil.

  223. citizenofmanassas said on 4 Sep 2007 at 4:23 pm:
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    AW,

    She can enjoy herself all she wants. I enjoy poking holes in the “defense” of illegal aliens. So, it does not matter if she is just doing it for kicks or not, her “talking points” are the usual weak lines spewed by the illegal defenders day after day.

    She also ignores many direct questions, facts, and points made, which if she is just having fun, she is doing a bad job of it, because she really should be able to come up with a reply for everything thrown her way.

  224. Michael said on 4 Sep 2007 at 5:27 pm:
    Flag comment

    Sounds like the “foil” debate is more about ego and less about the issue at hand i.e “illegal” vs “legal” behavior and consequences of it on the general welfare of people who obey the law. TH asked me a while back, why I thought the economy was worsening due to “illegal” influence. She correctly points out that there are many other factors that affect economy, “Big Oil” scams, company ethics gone awry like what “Enron” executives did to California citizens, etc. What she failed to realize is that “illegal” activity of all types, including the effects of “illegal” immigration on the general economic welfare of a nation is a moral, economic and social issue borne by ALL people living in the US. It needs to be stopped.

    I know why illegals hurt the economy first hand. My wife was an “illegal” immigrant and thought nothing of it. She worked for an employer who was once an “illegal”, and who got his green card using uncrupulous lawyers who lied for him and a business associate who lied for him to support his request for a green card. He then promply hired “only” people of his own race and ethnic group, charged people outside of his ethnic group more monet than he charged people inside his ethnic group. He provided a safe haven for more illegal people to come into the country illegally, by using his lawyers to file false green card forms, claiming he needed them and only them to support his business practice, which was to hire “illegals”, not pay the SS tax, medicare, and federral tax he was required to pay. His business made $1.5 million per year, he hired all “illegal” employees, housed them with slum lords of the same ethnic group also charging lower than normal rent ($200/room, with 10 people per house to cover a $1200/month mortgage with $2000.00 in income) in an underground economy, gave then phones on his “family” account, paid them less than $5.00/hour in wages, told them they might be deported if they complained about the low wages, and pockets, almost 1.2Million per year, while paying out less than $10,000.00 per year to 6 employees. He bought and started 3 businesses in 3 years, bought a Mercedes and played on the golf course and other forms of recreation while a “legal” manager also paid less than minumum wage ran the business, money and bookeeping. Employees were paid in cash, those very few employees of the same ethnic group who had SSNs, were also paid cash out of the register, and only accounted for those income wages that were traceable on credit cards (less than 50-60% of the business transactions. He cooked the books with his lawyer’s help. My poor wife was raped under threat of being deported if she told anyone about it, by a man whose wife worked in the INS, who was also once illegal, but got the job because of special language skills needed to talk with people who could not understand English. He also had a wife but slept with many of his employees because none of them could go to the law and complain. If anyone needed a doctor they were not given time off, had no holidays, paid everything in cash, bartered with their friends, exchanged their credit cards with friends and generally broke the law at every opportunity as if it was nothing, because they knew no-one would ever come to this guys business and ask them for their legal status. This could all be “fixed” by requiring a legal status card checked by the police on his business license and tax payment papers, and deporting people who did not have one, so the rest who are legal could compete fairly in the economy. She was paid $10,000.00 per year in cash only transactions, shipping $5,000.00 of it back to her former country, was given food at work she brought home to eat and so could save $5,000.0 per year if she chose to. She took a $20,000/per year job away from people of other ethnic groups, by his business putting other people in the same line of business OUT of business. To this day she still doesn’t understand why she has to pay tax $1,500 tax on her $10,000 income, when the poor slob her boss put out of business paid $3000.00 in annual income tax, medicare and SS tax, could bring home only $17,000 in income legally, paying for his kid’s school and community tax, paying for his medical bills and insurance, and paying for his single family home or rental apartment $800-$1000 a month, and saving only $1,000.00 per year after he buys food with food stamps, while still getting taxed on his property tax. While the population of a community goes to 25-30 % “illegals” in a community of 40% people of only one ethnic group support this illegal criminal and business practice behavior how can this possibly not harm the economy? The business owner only made himself richer and everyone around him poorer so they had to live in declining neighborhoods with increasing crime rate, murders, and gang/mafia criminal activity along racial lines. The bigger issue is this, I put out 15 bids for a house to be painted, and got back bods ranging from $1000.00 to 3500.00 to do the same work based on who and what ethnic group was going to do the work. Of course I could have chosen the least expensive, which I did, but the quality of work was terrible (no skill in that area, and corners cut on the quality of work). I had my house cleaned by maids that could not speak english, worked 3 hours and were paid $450.00. I don’t make $150.00 per hour , but neither did they (less than $10/hour). Who profited it, the lady of the same ethnic group who had been here illegally in 1986, and had brought 10 members of her family into the US, and had a network back inot her former country where she could “import cheap labor” and cheap products, she “shipped” from cheaper inrternational warehouses. It was the last time I paid $150.00 per hour LABOR for anything, but I paid it before besause the person I was paying also had to pay tax, and live on a “legal” economy. I have very mixed feelings about this, an beleive we all should made high wages from our employers, but should not be allowed to “cheat” others to get rich quick by doing so. If my 8 hours of labor can no longer buy what a foreigner’s 8 hours of labor in his own regional economy can buy, and all my Money is going overseas, to increase how much wealth a foreigner’s labor can buy each year, while my wealth each year declines for the same 8 hours of labor doing the same work, them I WILL become the POOR nation eventually. Then and only then (if this lawlessness and illegal activity continues), will my wages equal the foreigners wages and they will no longer come to America “Illegally”. I do not intend to let this type of “illegal” activity destroy the value of my home, the value of my 8 hours or labor and the values of my ethics to NOT break the law, just because people such as my wife feel entitled to special privileges only their ethnic group. BTW, she HATES people of other nations, and religious groups, and only is proud of her own, due to her ignorance of American Values and the racial hatred her parents taught her to hate others of other races, religious groups and cultures. These are the “illegal” people coming into America, and this is what they are doing to change and DIVIDE our nation into special priviliged political groups. This is why those of you who advocate to “ignore” and defend “illegal” immigration don’t understand your own ignorance.

  225. Leila said on 4 Sep 2007 at 5:52 pm:
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    Michael, I guess you didn’t see Dave’s criticism of your format on your previous meatloaf of a post on another thread. I agree with him. There are these things, they are called paragraphs. They cost nothing. They make any text, even yours, vastly more readable. When you don’t use them all you risk resembling those pale guys who only eat canned ravioli and Twinkies and fill endless lined spiral notebooks with careful block printing.

    Actually it appears you wrote the first graph, then cut and pasted the second monster from some preexisting rant. In any case, do yourself a favor and break it up a little.

  226. dolph said on 4 Sep 2007 at 8:05 pm:
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    Michael,

    I am rather speechless over your story.

    I guess my overwhelming feelinig is, why are you still married to someone like that?

  227. Michael said on 4 Sep 2007 at 9:07 pm:
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    Because love crosses ethnic boundaries, that’s the whole point of accepting people who are different than you are, and focusing on the lawful, ethical issues, and economic impact issues, and not the racial, ethnic, religious, and gender advocacy boundaries so many people get lost in.

    I will post my debates in “sound bytes” if I have time, generally I don’t have the time and need to move on to other issues in life, rather than sit in front of a computer all day. For those of you who don’t like that free speech format forgive me. For those of you who don’t care and are more interested in “content” rather than grammer, re-use it to educate others if you choose.

  228. Leila said on 4 Sep 2007 at 9:28 pm:
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    Michael, it isn’t a matter of length or sound bytes or grammAr. It is a matter of paragraph breaks. Just hit return now and again and break it into paragraphs. It would not take all day. It would take 1 minute. If you do it in your post above, you can do it in the other massive one unless you are admitting to just pasting in a block of recycled text.

  229. dolph said on 5 Sep 2007 at 12:20 am:
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    Michael,

    Thank you for answering my question. It really was none of my business and I shouldn’t have asked.

    You just sounded so angry, that I had to.

    I think what people are saying is, it would be easier to read if you paragraphed. I think you feel passionately about issues and have a lot to say. Leila made a good suggestion. I have old eyes. I have a hard time with tracking if there is no break.

  230. citizenofmanassas said on 6 Sep 2007 at 10:44 am:
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    Manassascityresident,

    Do you want to met up on Saturday to discuss walking the neighorhood? We can met at the Burger King.

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