The Debate, Part 3
By Greg L | 1 September 2007 | Illegal Aliens, Prince William County | 38 Comments
.Perhaps the most intriguing part of this segment of the program is where I refer to Nancy Lyall, the legal coordinator for Mexicanos Sin Fronteras as an attorney, and she doesn’t object. Mexicanos Sin Fronteras advertises that it will provide legal services to illegal aliens for various purposes, and Nancy Lyall works in a legal capacity for Mexicanos Sin Fronteras. To me this appears to be the unlicensed practice of law, and I had hoped that Nancy Lyall would clarify her role and activities so that we might understand what she is doing. Unfortunately, she did not.
I imagine the Bar Association can follow up on this. They’d be more qualified than me to continue this line of questioning, anyways.
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Is it just me or did Greg almost laugh at this woman when she was spewing her crap? It looked like he was trying really hard not to.
Here is part 4 of the interview. It is only about 1 minute - final comments by Greg and Nancy. Thanks for your patience.
http://www.youtube.com/v/CnwFDHRCQm8
Nancy used the same old “tired” excuses for breaking the law (just want a better life, need to feed the family, the waiting period is too long, blah, blah, blah)! Please! The best part was when she stated that she has not seen the detrimental effects?!? Is she blind? She needs to drive around more.
The Patriot
You are so RIGHT. I think we should invite her to WestGate/Sudley area. I think she’s blinded by her love and support of illegal aliens.
Greg did great when he pointed out the fact that alot of illegals have broke the law 3 times: 1) when they crossed the border without documentation 2) when they obtained falsified documents, and in some cases stole someone’s SSN or identification, when obtaining employment 3) moving multiple families into a single dwelling, violating zoning laws. What the heck? Why stop there? What other laws can be broken with no consequences?
Good point Patriot. I got tired of hearing her repeat the same old, tired, beat-up talking points for breaking the law, as well. She sounded like a broken record player.
By the way, it was a pleasure for me and my wife to a drop a few hundred dollars in the PWC economy yesterday while shopping in my former stomping grounds of Gainesville. If Fairfax County sticks their heads in the sand and ignores this sort of problem developing there, I may become a Gainesville resident again. I’ll deal with the commute.
Nancy, really needs to get some new lines to banter about. I’m sick of hearing her same whiny 5 points (in her mind). It’s time for Nancy to get some new lines or move south of the border. She’s more than welcome to all of her illegal alien friends and supporters with her. I wish I would’ve been watching at four. I wonder if she will be at the McCoart building on Sunday.
The economic impact argument is ridiculous! The economy would actually improve (lowered taxes, etc.) for legal taxpaying citizens. Additionally, some illegals aliens might pay some money into the system, however, they take more out of the system on a consistent basis (so they are “in the red” as far as money is concerned). Legal taxpaying citizens largely pay more into the system than they take out on a consistent basis (so we are “in the black” as far as money is concerned). Furthermore, the quality of life will improve in our neighborhoods (cleaner streets, less crowds, easier access to our own facilities without hassle, English as the primary language spoken in public (yes this is a big issue), etc.).
Anon,
You are right. It looked like Greg was trying real hard not to laugh. But I’ve got to tell you every time I heard Nancy I laughed my head off. She better sue the Federal government because they are deporting illegal aliens and according to her that is against the Constitution. Unfortunately when Greg made that comment about her being a lawyer that was not followed up on by the moderator, so I’ll bet there are people who watched that show that now believe she really is a lawyer.
I personally liked the statement by Greg regarding “renting the American Dream”…that was classic AND true.
Father Bob had a lot to say but no questions did he ask. The church needs an audit.
I don’t know about the other groups of lawyers, but isn’t ACLU already supported by our tax dollars? How can they now demand $millions from Hazleton for court costs? What a bunch of crooks. http://www.centredaily.com/news/state/story/194756.html
The following is a comment in response to an article concerning the latest LaRaza threat: http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/254845.html
Sounds like another good action alert effort:
“The White House has promised two powerful reforms that will finally move illegal workers out of the workplace. Please support the “no-match letter” and “E-Verify” initiatives.
The goal of the business and illegal alien lobbies has always been to make the illegal alien population permanent, and to guarantee a steady stream of cheap, foreign labor. Until now, it looked like they had exclusive access to the government’s ear. But now that the Senate’s amnesty bill has died, more and more elected officials are listening to their constituents, and considering the “attrition through enforcement” solution as an alternative to amnesty.
Naturally, the business and pro-illegal-immigration lobby has mounted a vehement opposition to these new enforcement initiatives. They have resorted to name-calling and fear-mongering.
The fact is, the only people who have anything to fear from these enforcement initiatives are those who have broken the law. Even then, the initiatives leave room for the violators to make right, without prosecution. Employers have a window of opportunity to replace their illegal workers with legal immigrants or American citizens before any penalty is levied, and illegal workers are free to return to their native countries without any further punishment for violating our national sovereignty.
This is a fair and efficient way to deal with the 12 to 20 million illegal aliens in the country. No mass roundups will be necessary. At the same time, this is a long stride towards economic justice for the 23 million “less-educated” American working-age adults who do NOT have a job.
Please Do everything possible to support the “no-match letter” and “E-Verify” initiatives.”
Looks like more bad construction built without a permit in Manassas Park(hehe) http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=5077
Speaking of suing, the ACLU and the AFL-CIO have filed suit against Homeland Security and the Social Security Admin. because of the no match letters. I haven’t read the whole suit, but they say it will endanger legal citizens and Americans. They will potentially lose their jobs because of errors in the system.
What a crock! If anyone belongs to the AFL-CIO I need to speak to them. Please contact me at legislative@helpsavemanassas.org
So, a family of 16 in a 2200 sf house is wrong? What about a family of 8 in a 1000 sf two bedroom house? Is it OK if theyre the supervisor who sponsored this kind of resolution in Loudoun?
A family of 16? How about 16 unrelated, illegal grown men?
SAN FRANCISCO - A federal judge today issued an order temporarily blocking the government from implementing a new Department of Homeland Security (DHS) rule that would cause U.S. citizens and other authorized workers to lose their jobs, and which would illegally use error-prone social security records as a tool for immigration enforcement. The judge’s order also stops the Social Security Administration (SSA) from beginning to send notices on Tuesday to approximately 140,000 employers across the country notifying them of the new rule, which would impact approximately eight million workers.
Doesn’t the DHS have more authority than a liberal judge? I thought we supposedly learned something from 9-11.
Legal2 -
Here’s the answer to your question about the ACLU:
The ACLU was founded by Roger Baldwin, Crystal Eastman, Albert DeSilver and others in 1920. We are nonprofit and nonpartisan and have grown from a roomful of civil liberties activists to an organization of more than 500,000 members and supporters. We handle nearly 6,000 court cases annually from our offices in almost every state.
The ACLU has maintained the position that civil liberties must be respected, even in times of national emergency. The ACLU is supported by annual dues and contributions from its members, plus grants from private foundations and individuals. We do not receive any government funding.
——————————————————————————
I say we go after them!
The ACLU, although they may defend controversial issues at times, is a highly valuable organization. You may not agree with many of the cases that they take but you should respect the fact that there is an organization who’s sole purpose is to defend our constitutional rights against governmental encroachment and abuses.
Every time I see people bash the ACLU it just makes me want to donate more money to them.
See, the beauty of this country and our constitution is that our liberties are supposed to be protected regardless of whether or not our neighbors like it. I think many on this site lack a basic understanding of the rule of law and the constitution however I still support their right to gnash their teeth and wail over how so called “liberal” judges are destroying this country.
I would suggest that such individuals take some time to track down a few books on the constitution, its history, and the many abuses of it by politicians on both sides of the aisle. Take for example how the president and now congress have done their best to further strip away privacy rights of citizens in the name of homeland security.
If you want to live in an autocratic society there are several around the globe. You could choose for example to defect to Cuba, Iran, North Korea, etc. I am sure they would love to have you.
All that said, I support the resolution and would like to see intelligent solutions to the problem of illegal immigration in PWC and the country as a whole.
Craig,
The ACLU is a bitter pill to take, for sure. I continually must remind myself that it is the national ‘watchdog’ and to not have it is worse than having it.
Greg:
If you are legitimately concerned that localities don’t have adequate means to enforce rules against overcrowding (a debatable proposition but one that deserves thoughtful consideration), it would be good if you’d encourage your supporters to get engaged in following the study being conducted by the Virginia Housing Commission on overcrowing and its solutions. The study is being undertaken pursuant to a resolution offered by Delegate Jackson Miller in the last session of the General Assembly, http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?071+sum+HJ696. The Housing Commission was directed to “examine (i) the impacts of residential overcrowding on neighborhoods and localities, (ii) innovative solutions to help localities deal with the negative impacts of such overcrowding, and (iii) ways in which zoning, building code, and fire safety code laws may be strengthened to help localities protect its residents.”
In addition, the tools available to localities were enhanced last session by two bills, one which increased the penalties for overcrowding violations and one that gave the zoning administrators unprecented authority to subpoena documents. This gives zoning administrators a new tool to use in ascertaining whether people living in a house are related where zoning restrictions exist on numbers of unrelated persons who are allowed to live in a single family dwelling. The bills were: House Bill 2261, http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?071+sum+HB2261 and Senate Bill 1412, http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?071+sum+SB1412.
To the woman who called in at the end of part 2 and continuing into part 3, who honestly acknowledged the “dirty little secret” that she didn’t care about the legal status of immigrants … she was concerned about her perception that her “community was not the community it used to be” and that “it’s really about assimilation” — is she saying that people who come from cultures where traditionally children don’t move out of the home until they marry (often living at home into their 30’s) or where it is common for three generations to live together must conform to the “traditional” American
“ideal” model of having children “leave the nest” at 18 or sending our older relatives to assisted living facilities or nursing homes rather than care for them at home in order to show their “respect” for our culture or to be considered “assimilated” under her standards?
Finally, to your point, Greg, about threatened lawsuits. As you well know, the resolution is not an ordinance (purposely so that the public hearings and other procedural steps normally required to enact a new law would not have to be followed before the resolution was considered by the Board and so that the resolution could be taken up on an expedited schedule without the thoughtful consideration that the normal legal process requires). Consequently, the process for implementing the resoultion through an ordinance or other lawful action by the Board or the County administration won’t even begin until the police chief completes the work required of him under the resolution (developing the probable cause standard, for example) and until the staff report on benefits is presented to the Board. Since lawsuits can’t be brought until a matter is “ripe,” those concerned about the legality of the County Board’s actions are responsibly waiting to see what actions are taken by the County Board, the administration and the police department based on the resolution and whether those actions are subject to legal challenge under the laws and constitution of the United States or the Virginia constitution or code.
That means that the County Board still has the opportunity in this process to take all appropriate steps to ensure than any action it takes complies with the “rule of law” and to avoid/prevent the costly litigation that will surely come if it does not.
In this debate, the legal director of Mexicanos Sin Fronteras says the resolution is unconstitutional. PRLDEF has said the same, and that they will sue. None of these folks are talking about the implementation of the resolution, they’re talking about the resolution itself. That is just a goofy statement, and they repeat it over and over again. Nancy Lyall, while denying that Mexicanos Sin Fronteras is calling anyone a racist (which is clearly a lie), is saying that this resolution is unconstitutional both in her previous statements to the press and during this “debate”. Hopefully folks will stop listening to the non-stop untruths that she deliberately repeats, and start evaluating her other statements in light of her demonstrated faulty grasp on reality.
Claire,
Re: ‘dirty little secret’
I believe you heard what you wanted to hear from the woman caller. I believe her name was Nancy. You are attempting to obfuscate her remarks by going off on a tangent about young adult children not leaving home or throwing older family members in nursing homes. In fact, those 2 specifics are seen more and more in traditional American families: more young adults live at home to cut costs and family members often care for the elderly at home to save on soaring nursing care costs.
You know darn good and well that is not what the caller was saying. I will not attempt to speak for her or reiterate her remarks, but will add my own. Some members of the immigrant community are cramming multiple families in houses built for one family. Some are converting single family homes into hotels, motels, and boarding houses which violate our residential zoning laws. Some are parking automobiles all over the lawn and in some cases, are concreting over the yards and turning them in to parking lots. This type of overcrowding diminishes the quality of life for those unfortunate enough to live around it. It doesn’t take many slum houses to turn an entire neighborhood into a tenement.
Do not try to turn this issue into a family values issue. It simply won’t fly with this old home-girl. I know what I see. There are good neighbors and there are bad neighbors. The bad ones are ignoring our laws, our culture, and taking advantage of our society at every turn.
You’re right. Bad neighbors are bad neighbors, and most of us have had a few.
So, let’s go back to the caller who said that “it’s about assimilation” and it’s “not the community it used to be” and ask ourselves …
why does it matter to our definition of good neigborliness whether someone adopts “our culture”? Can’t a good neighbor also be someone who wishes to preserve aspects of their culture (including their religion, their food choices, their first language, their extended families, and their music)?
have sufficient efforts been made by community leaders and zoning and code enforcement officials to reach out to people new to this country to educate them about our residential zoning laws and noise ordinances (not usually present in their countries or, truth be told, in rural Virginia) and to seek their compliance?
what is the connection between the reality that the neighborhoods we’re talking about tend to be older suburbs that are moving down the socio-economic scale as the housing stock ages and people who are financially able move up the housing ladder leaving some long term residents behind living uncomfortably with people that they don’t see as their “class”?
is there an absentee landlord issue that needs to be addressed here?
In short, is their any chance that we can get “off” arguing positions here and seek to define the interests and solve some of the quality of life problems about which you are concerned through some combination of community dialogue and mediation?
If so, you’d have the energy to focus on getting the changes needed in our immigration laws by demanding action by Congress to secure our borders, keep us safe and provide an efficient and effective immigration system that offers those already here a path to legalization and citizenship that requires payment of taxes and learning English among other requirements.
But, if, as the caller said, “it’s really about assimilation” meaning that immigrants are only acceptable or good neighbors if they are indistinguishable from her definition of “our culture” that might not be possible. Nor will it be possible if stereotypes cloud conversations on both sides of the dialogue.
One final note: some of the complaints expressed here and in other forums have a familiar ring. They sound a lot like the complaints too often heard about black families who were the first on the block back in the sixties (loud music, loud parties, standing around in the street, cars on the lawn, property values going down). That’s something with which none should be entirely comfortable and deserves thoughtful and dispassionate examination regarding stereotypes on both sides.
In that respect, you might find this dissertation regarding newly immigrated Hispanics and housing and neigbor relations North Carolina of interest, http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-08282002-231847/unrestricted/etd.pdf,
“Improving communities involves both bettering neighbor relations through
increased personal contact such as borrowing from/lending to neighbors, visiting with neighbors, and giving/receiving help from neighbors. Improvement also involves neighbors working together on shared community problems such as littered streets, drugs, and/or violence. Inter-ethnic contact can greatly change what people think about “others.”
Stereotypes abound at the stages leading up to community integration, yet physical integration alone doesn’t change the stereotypes. Rather, it is frequent and meaningful interaction toward shared rewards that results in the breaking of stereotypes, and in turn leads to further increases in interaction. My main finding is that that the rate of conflict seems to diminish with increased interaction between long-term residents and newly immigrated Hispanics. As interaction increases, negative stereotypes decrease and
residents rely more on experience than on prior assumptions.”
CG said, “But, if, as the caller said, “it’s really about assimilation” meaning that immigrants are only acceptable or good neighbors if they are indistinguishable from her definition of “our culture” that might not be possible. Nor will it be possible if stereotypes cloud conversations on both sides of the dialogue.”
The caller was a red herring. Are you saying that some random caller is the spokesperson for bvbl? True, if latinos had assimilated, they might not have drawn as much attention to themselves.
It’s about upholding our immigration laws. Illegal means illegal. That is what the resolution is about.
Legal2,
It is easy to say something about the caller and not respond to the valid point that CG is making.
Illegal is Illegal, please be creative and think. I guess that all that you learned from the Zen Master Lou Doobs.
Now all latinos don’t assimilate and I guess that you believe that all of them are illegal
Claire
Which neighborhood do YOU live in? So you think it is fine for a middle class neighborhood to become a lower class neighborhood? And, for our schools to have to spend MILLIONS of our taxpayer dollars to educate the illegal aliens.
It would not be quite so bad if there were an end in sight. But, our taxpayer funded handouts have opened the floodgates. If we don’t stop making it so appealing to come here , we might as well be living in Mexico.
I wonder what neighborhood Nancy Lyall is in?
Some neighborhoods in PWC are untouched SO FAR. I think we should bus the ESOL students to spread them out EVENLY among the county schools. I think the Help Saves would gain many new members.
The ACLU is nothing but an anti American group. The Constitution they support is the not our Constitution, but a version they want to believe is the real one.
Oh sure, they talk a good game. But any group that defends NAMBLA(men having sex with young boys) is not American and is not right. End of story, nothing they or their supporters can say will change that fact.
COM -
I agree. The ACLU tend to defend gays, athiests, and illegals. They started out meaning well, but are dragging our country into the gutter. They need to go.
ACLU defends everyone’s constitutional rights. You should go before they do manassascityresident because you think you can co-opt the constitution. The constituion wasn’t written just for you or for the people you like. it is for all citizens, especially those you don’t like. If you are against that, you are not american…you are fascist.
8 in a 1000 square foot house. I don’t think in a 1500 ft house. It shouldn’t happen, even it is a family of two adults and their six children. Think about townhome communities… two adults, two teenagers, four cars, two parking spots. How is that right? Townhomes weren’t constructed for 8 people, it doesn’t matter if they are Latino, black, or white, related or not. It diminishes the quality of life for everyone around them.
Claire, “As interaction increases, negative stereotypes decrease and
residents rely more on experience than on prior assumptions.” I could not access the dissertation, did they talk about it as a two way street or was it the native community that had to do all the reaching out?
I personally think that Nancy Lyall and her gang have the potential to do so much good for the people that they seem to care about by providing them with information that would help them assimilate and not lie to them to heighten emotions. They could teach newcomers about zoning, the illegality of working under the table and not paying taxes, the cultural expectation that one doesn’t apply for government assistance unless they need it. (and that if they get gov’t assistance they have to report income from boarders.) They could also teach them that the government that they don’t pay their fair share of taxes for is the same government that they count on for justice when they turn to the Constitution for protection from “unjust” resolutions. I have listened to too much ignorant racist (nationalistic?) rhetoric in Spanish to believe that assimilation is our lack of accepting 3 generational households.
Sal,
I couldn’t agree more. You have brought up some very valid points.
Hopefully those who are supporting and encouraging illegal immigrants will take your words to heart and implement your suggestions rather than lecturing to us.
Anon 8:01:
Actually, not that it should matter, but I live in the Randolph neighborhood in the City of Richmond, a diverse, majority black neighborhood where the average assessment, when I bought my home, was $85,000 (it’s gone up since then, because of neighborhood change … see below). I grew up in Annandale in a neighborhood where my parents’ bought their house for under $30,000 but which is now the location of a McMansion development and the same house sold three years ago for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Our house was a modest split level of less than 2000 square feet that had 8 people living in it (2 parents and 6 kids) and when we were teens, you guessed it, many cars in the driveway.
So, don’t try to “gotcha” me with your stereotypes and assumptions.
Focus on the issues not the people making the arguments.
Sals:
The dissertation I cited does talk quite cogently about stereotypes on both sides and the need for both sides to reach out.
You can find the dissertation and download the PDF if you google the title:
Newly Immigrated Hispanics in North Carolina: Experiences with Housing and Neighbor Relations.
Anon 8:01
Regarding neighborhood change, acknowledging that it is happening isn’t a qualitative judgment (but what’s wrong with living in a working class neighborhood?) Neighborhood change is a fact of life, and it creates stress for folks in the transition whether the neighborhood is transitioning up or down. Houses age, people move up the property ladder to new homes when they can afford to, the new people moving in are starting out at a lower rung on the property ladder because older, smaller houses are cheaper … sometimes the cycle works in reverse when older neighborhoods (particularly those now closer in and attractive to empty nesters or young people starting out) are gentrified and become unaffordable for the folks who have lived there for 40 years. The reality is, though, that no matter which side of the transition you are on, some folks are fearful of change and of their newer neighbors. And, recognizing that’s part of the equation here is a part of finding solutions to the quality of life issues that concern many.
Legal2
I don’t believe the caller “Nancy” can fairly be described as a “red herring.” In fact, I think I recognized her voice and her point of view from her testimony in favor of the resolution at the Prince William Board meeting. I actually think that she is a member of Help Save who was trying to pitch a softball Greg’s way. I could, of course, be wrong. But, the fact is she called in, she’s in the community, and she represents a point of view that I’ve heard expressed before. Hence, it is fair game to discuss it, here, or anywhere else the tape of the debate is posted.
Re: costs and benefits, see:
an interesting WSJ discussion …
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB115100948305787940-tA5PP0Ya_9U0AlXBQQhnaDyMIYc_20060725.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top
Special Report of the Texas Controller
http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/
Let’s hope that the Virginia Commission on Immigration can give all Virginians a fair and balanced report of both the costs and benefits so that we can put some reality around the discussion of taxes paid and benefits received.
Claire
Claire,
Did you personally live in a neighborhood that went “into decline” after you were living there? I am unfamiliar with Richmond neighborhoods so I do not know if that was the case. I think the people of PWC dreamed that what happened to the value of your parent’s Annandale home would likewise happen to theirs. As you said:
I grew up in Annandale in a neighborhood where my parents’ bought
their house for under $30,000 but which is now the location of a
McMansion development and the same house sold three years ago for
hundreds of thousands of dollars .
Prince William County which was once the distant suburbs is now a very desirable location (Springfield area, Ft. Belvoir, Quantico, Dulles Airport, etc. are providing more and more jobs.) We were not ready to see our neighborhoods go into decline because of residential overcrowding, poorly kept properties, and schools labeled as failures.
The No Child Left Behind with its requirements that the various subgroups including the Limited English Proficient students (ESOL) pass state mandated
tests given in English. Property values drop in neighborhoods that make the newspapersunder the category of “failures.”
I don’t think our communities should have to PAY FOR illegal immigrantion (lower property values, soaring educational costs, price of feeding and clothing prison inmates, and cleaning uo the graffiti.
When was the last the aclu defended the second amendment? Not only are they wrong about supporting men having sex with boys, but they are also wrong when it comes to illegal aliens.
Nice job Greg!