I grew up in Annandale in a neighborhood where my parents’ bought
their house for under $30,000 but which is now the location of a
McMansion development and the same house sold three years ago for
hundreds of thousands of dollars .

Prince William County which was once the distant suburbs is now a very desirable location (Springfield area, Ft. Belvoir, Quantico, Dulles Airport, etc. are providing more and more jobs.) We were not ready to see our neighborhoods go into decline because of residential overcrowding, poorly kept properties, and schools labeled as failures.

The No Child Left Behind with its requirements that the various subgroups including the Limited English Proficient students (ESOL) pass state mandated
tests given in English. Property values drop in neighborhoods that make the newspapersunder the category of “failures.”

I don’t think our communities should have to PAY FOR illegal immigrantion (lower property values, soaring educational costs, price of feeding and clothing prison inmates, and cleaning uo the graffiti.

So, don’t try to “gotcha” me with your stereotypes and assumptions.

Focus on the issues not the people making the arguments.

Sals:
The dissertation I cited does talk quite cogently about stereotypes on both sides and the need for both sides to reach out.

You can find the dissertation and download the PDF if you google the title:
Newly Immigrated Hispanics in North Carolina: Experiences with Housing and Neighbor Relations.

Anon 8:01
Regarding neighborhood change, acknowledging that it is happening isn’t a qualitative judgment (but what’s wrong with living in a working class neighborhood?) Neighborhood change is a fact of life, and it creates stress for folks in the transition whether the neighborhood is transitioning up or down. Houses age, people move up the property ladder to new homes when they can afford to, the new people moving in are starting out at a lower rung on the property ladder because older, smaller houses are cheaper … sometimes the cycle works in reverse when older neighborhoods (particularly those now closer in and attractive to empty nesters or young people starting out) are gentrified and become unaffordable for the folks who have lived there for 40 years. The reality is, though, that no matter which side of the transition you are on, some folks are fearful of change and of their newer neighbors. And, recognizing that’s part of the equation here is a part of finding solutions to the quality of life issues that concern many.

Legal2
I don’t believe the caller “Nancy” can fairly be described as a “red herring.” In fact, I think I recognized her voice and her point of view from her testimony in favor of the resolution at the Prince William Board meeting. I actually think that she is a member of Help Save who was trying to pitch a softball Greg’s way. I could, of course, be wrong. But, the fact is she called in, she’s in the community, and she represents a point of view that I’ve heard expressed before. Hence, it is fair game to discuss it, here, or anywhere else the tape of the debate is posted.

Re: costs and benefits, see:
an interesting WSJ discussion …
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB115100948305787940-tA5PP0Ya_9U0AlXBQQhnaDyMIYc_20060725.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top

Special Report of the Texas Controller
http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/undocumented/

Let’s hope that the Virginia Commission on Immigration can give all Virginians a fair and balanced report of both the costs and benefits so that we can put some reality around the discussion of taxes paid and benefits received.

Claire

I couldn’t agree more. You have brought up some very valid points.

Hopefully those who are supporting and encouraging illegal immigrants will take your words to heart and implement your suggestions rather than lecturing to us.

I personally think that Nancy Lyall and her gang have the potential to do so much good for the people that they seem to care about by providing them with information that would help them assimilate and not lie to them to heighten emotions. They could teach newcomers about zoning, the illegality of working under the table and not paying taxes, the cultural expectation that one doesn’t apply for government assistance unless they need it. (and that if they get gov’t assistance they have to report income from boarders.) They could also teach them that the government that they don’t pay their fair share of taxes for is the same government that they count on for justice when they turn to the Constitution for protection from “unjust” resolutions. I have listened to too much ignorant racist (nationalistic?) rhetoric in Spanish to believe that assimilation is our lack of accepting 3 generational households.

Oh sure, they talk a good game. But any group that defends NAMBLA(men having sex with young boys) is not American and is not right. End of story, nothing they or their supporters can say will change that fact.

The caller was a red herring. Are you saying that some random caller is the spokesperson for bvbl? True, if latinos had assimilated, they might not have drawn as much attention to themselves.

It’s about upholding our immigration laws. Illegal means illegal. That is what the resolution is about.

So, let’s go back to the caller who said that “it’s about assimilation” and it’s “not the community it used to be” and ask ourselves …

why does it matter to our definition of good neigborliness whether someone adopts “our culture”? Can’t a good neighbor also be someone who wishes to preserve aspects of their culture (including their religion, their food choices, their first language, their extended families, and their music)?

have sufficient efforts been made by community leaders and zoning and code enforcement officials to reach out to people new to this country to educate them about our residential zoning laws and noise ordinances (not usually present in their countries or, truth be told, in rural Virginia) and to seek their compliance?

what is the connection between the reality that the neighborhoods we’re talking about tend to be older suburbs that are moving down the socio-economic scale as the housing stock ages and people who are financially able move up the housing ladder leaving some long term residents behind living uncomfortably with people that they don’t see as their “class”?

is there an absentee landlord issue that needs to be addressed here?

In short, is their any chance that we can get “off” arguing positions here and seek to define the interests and solve some of the quality of life problems about which you are concerned through some combination of community dialogue and mediation?

If so, you’d have the energy to focus on getting the changes needed in our immigration laws by demanding action by Congress to secure our borders, keep us safe and provide an efficient and effective immigration system that offers those already here a path to legalization and citizenship that requires payment of taxes and learning English among other requirements.

But, if, as the caller said, “it’s really about assimilation” meaning that immigrants are only acceptable or good neighbors if they are indistinguishable from her definition of “our culture” that might not be possible. Nor will it be possible if stereotypes cloud conversations on both sides of the dialogue.

One final note: some of the complaints expressed here and in other forums have a familiar ring. They sound a lot like the complaints too often heard about black families who were the first on the block back in the sixties (loud music, loud parties, standing around in the street, cars on the lawn, property values going down). That’s something with which none should be entirely comfortable and deserves thoughtful and dispassionate examination regarding stereotypes on both sides.

In that respect, you might find this dissertation regarding newly immigrated Hispanics and housing and neigbor relations North Carolina of interest, http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-08282002-231847/unrestricted/etd.pdf,

“Improving communities involves both bettering neighbor relations through
increased personal contact such as borrowing from/lending to neighbors, visiting with neighbors, and giving/receiving help from neighbors. Improvement also involves neighbors working together on shared community problems such as littered streets, drugs, and/or violence. Inter-ethnic contact can greatly change what people think about “others.”
Stereotypes abound at the stages leading up to community integration, yet physical integration alone doesn’t change the stereotypes. Rather, it is frequent and meaningful interaction toward shared rewards that results in the breaking of stereotypes, and in turn leads to further increases in interaction. My main finding is that that the rate of conflict seems to diminish with increased interaction between long-term residents and newly immigrated Hispanics. As interaction increases, negative stereotypes decrease and
residents rely more on experience than on prior assumptions.”

Re: ‘dirty little secret’

I believe you heard what you wanted to hear from the woman caller. I believe her name was Nancy. You are attempting to obfuscate her remarks by going off on a tangent about young adult children not leaving home or throwing older family members in nursing homes. In fact, those 2 specifics are seen more and more in traditional American families: more young adults live at home to cut costs and family members often care for the elderly at home to save on soaring nursing care costs.

You know darn good and well that is not what the caller was saying. I will not attempt to speak for her or reiterate her remarks, but will add my own. Some members of the immigrant community are cramming multiple families in houses built for one family. Some are converting single family homes into hotels, motels, and boarding houses which violate our residential zoning laws. Some are parking automobiles all over the lawn and in some cases, are concreting over the yards and turning them in to parking lots. This type of overcrowding diminishes the quality of life for those unfortunate enough to live around it. It doesn’t take many slum houses to turn an entire neighborhood into a tenement.

Do not try to turn this issue into a family values issue. It simply won’t fly with this old home-girl. I know what I see. There are good neighbors and there are bad neighbors. The bad ones are ignoring our laws, our culture, and taking advantage of our society at every turn.

In addition, the tools available to localities were enhanced last session by two bills, one which increased the penalties for overcrowding violations and one that gave the zoning administrators unprecented authority to subpoena documents. This gives zoning administrators a new tool to use in ascertaining whether people living in a house are related where zoning restrictions exist on numbers of unrelated persons who are allowed to live in a single family dwelling. The bills were: House Bill 2261, http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?071+sum+HB2261 and Senate Bill 1412, http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?071+sum+SB1412.

To the woman who called in at the end of part 2 and continuing into part 3, who honestly acknowledged the “dirty little secret” that she didn’t care about the legal status of immigrants … she was concerned about her perception that her “community was not the community it used to be” and that “it’s really about assimilation” — is she saying that people who come from cultures where traditionally children don’t move out of the home until they marry (often living at home into their 30’s) or where it is common for three generations to live together must conform to the “traditional” American
“ideal” model of having children “leave the nest” at 18 or sending our older relatives to assisted living facilities or nursing homes rather than care for them at home in order to show their “respect” for our culture or to be considered “assimilated” under her standards?

Finally, to your point, Greg, about threatened lawsuits. As you well know, the resolution is not an ordinance (purposely so that the public hearings and other procedural steps normally required to enact a new law would not have to be followed before the resolution was considered by the Board and so that the resolution could be taken up on an expedited schedule without the thoughtful consideration that the normal legal process requires). Consequently, the process for implementing the resoultion through an ordinance or other lawful action by the Board or the County administration won’t even begin until the police chief completes the work required of him under the resolution (developing the probable cause standard, for example) and until the staff report on benefits is presented to the Board. Since lawsuits can’t be brought until a matter is “ripe,” those concerned about the legality of the County Board’s actions are responsibly waiting to see what actions are taken by the County Board, the administration and the police department based on the resolution and whether those actions are subject to legal challenge under the laws and constitution of the United States or the Virginia constitution or code.

That means that the County Board still has the opportunity in this process to take all appropriate steps to ensure than any action it takes complies with the “rule of law” and to avoid/prevent the costly litigation that will surely come if it does not.

The ACLU is a bitter pill to take, for sure. I continually must remind myself that it is the national ‘watchdog’ and to not have it is worse than having it.

Every time I see people bash the ACLU it just makes me want to donate more money to them.

See, the beauty of this country and our constitution is that our liberties are supposed to be protected regardless of whether or not our neighbors like it. I think many on this site lack a basic understanding of the rule of law and the constitution however I still support their right to gnash their teeth and wail over how so called “liberal” judges are destroying this country.

I would suggest that such individuals take some time to track down a few books on the constitution, its history, and the many abuses of it by politicians on both sides of the aisle. Take for example how the president and now congress have done their best to further strip away privacy rights of citizens in the name of homeland security.

If you want to live in an autocratic society there are several around the globe. You could choose for example to defect to Cuba, Iran, North Korea, etc. I am sure they would love to have you.

All that said, I support the resolution and would like to see intelligent solutions to the problem of illegal immigration in PWC and the country as a whole.

Here’s the answer to your question about the ACLU:

The ACLU was founded by Roger Baldwin, Crystal Eastman, Albert DeSilver and others in 1920. We are nonprofit and nonpartisan and have grown from a roomful of civil liberties activists to an organization of more than 500,000 members and supporters. We handle nearly 6,000 court cases annually from our offices in almost every state.

The ACLU has maintained the position that civil liberties must be respected, even in times of national emergency. The ACLU is supported by annual dues and contributions from its members, plus grants from private foundations and individuals. We do not receive any government funding.
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I say we go after them!