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Another Resident Dies At The Hands Of An Illegal Alien
By Greg L | 5 September 2007 | Illegal Aliens, Crime, Manassas City | 97 Comments
Yes, there’s another murder in the area, and yes, this is another instance of an illegal alien (allegedly) committing the crime. Since the last election, that makes two murders in Manassas, and one in Prince William County by persons who shouldn’t even be in our communities in the first place. And illegal aliens are supposedly less likely to commit crimes than American citizens? This is an outrage.
From the Manassas Journal-Messenger:
A twice-deported Salvadoran immigrant was charged with strangling an acquaintance during a fight Sunday, Prince William County police said Wednesday.
Christian Molina, also known as Jose Maximino Flores-Perales, 30, of 9011 Whispering Pine Court, Manassas, was charged with the murder of 51-year-old Ronald Dean Hollingsworth.
…
After fingerprinting Molina, police learned that he was deported in 2003 and 2005 because of his illegal status and for criminal activity, Hernandez said.
WTOP had this report earlier:
A man faces murder charges after a fight turned deadly Sunday in Prince William County. Police say Christian Molina, 30, was here illegally and had been deported twice from the U.S. this decade.On Sunday night, police were called to a home on Dumfries Road in Manassas after two men got into a fight. Police say Molina allegedly choked 51-year-old Ronald Hollingsworth.
Another man called 911 when he realized Hollingsworth was not moving.
Erika Hernandez with Prince William County Police says Molina was here illegally and is being held without bond.
He had been deported back in 2003 and again in 2005. The second time because of a lack of legal status combined with criminal activity.
Meanwhile, Governor Kaine is still ignoring calls to enroll the state in the Section 287(g) Program which might help to deport these criminal illegal aliens if they commit lesser crimes, but before they graduate to being full-blown murderers. This insanity has to stop, and if the federal government won’t stop it, they darned well better give the tools localities need in order to do the job they’re unwilling or unable to do. How many more legal residents have to die at the hands of illegal aliens in this area?
UPDATE: For more on this, check out Virginia Virtucon.
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Greg-BVBL,
You can keep doing what you do best and that is reporting the TRUTH-
and I can keep on doing what I am doing and say once again:
ONE TOO MANY! Is there anybody out there……………………………..
I wonder if I’m living in an upside-down world! When did right become wrong; and wrong become right??? I believe in governing laws because that’s what keeps everyone basically on the same page…people who have to follow the same rules. We desparately need our local and federal officials to do everything possible to enforce the laws fairly. Why is it right for the hispanic/latino population to think they can get into our country for free, while many others are out there filling out their paperwork and paying fees to become citizens the legal way? Why do we put our signs, signage on food items and telephone directions in Spanish? If we are to favor one, shouldn’t we then have to put our signs and such in French, German, Italian, …. English is our language spoken in the United States. There is absolutely no reason the hispanic population deserves special treatment… come here the legal, time-consuming, costly way that my friend and my daughter’s fiance is doing it….LEGALLY!
Section 287g needs to be enforced throughout our state, so those who commit these horrible crimes do not get back on the streets to repeat history! I will be praying for the families who have lost loved ones in hit and run driving accidents, murders,….our families of Virginia deserve better protection than this, Governor Kaine.
Many thanks to Gregg, and those officials who’ve stepped up to the plate in working with “Help Save Manassas” make positive changes for our county and hopefully across our commonwealth!
I looked up the address and he does not live far from where the last murder occurred. My lease is up at the end of November, I will be leaving this place and heading west where the illegals are not as established. I refuse to live in a place where the law is ignored.
I dont want to go to a construction site and ask for a job from an illegal. I”ve had my life threatened, and been told this is not my country by illegal latino. But, we should remember many Americans are of spanish heritage, but ,for some reason, many support this invasion of our country.open your eyes, these illegals did not create the infrastructure that allows all this new construction,and they should not be here to reap the rewards. and AMERICA was built before most these illegals were born and hopped over the border. Los estados unidos tienes fronteras,(THE UNITED STATES HAS BORDERS). We should boycott Mexico, and take no vacations there. These illegals dont think right, and,we are not accountable to them.Neither should we negotiate with them. Send them all home one at a time,or all at once. USA needs to send them a message, its not racism, they are tresspassing on US soil. It will never be their country here.
Out of curiosity, how would 287(g) have prevented this murder? Without discussing the merits of 287(g), this guy has already been deported twice. He came back. To me, that is unquestionably a failure of the federal government.
If this guy is a murderer, he’s going to jail for life. All 287(g) would do is allow local/state authorities to process him for deportation when he dies at the end of his life sentence. And since he’s already been deported, isn’t it painfully obvious that deportation alone (particularly by the state) can do very little to stop someone who is determined to be here?
287(g) can send drunk drivers and thieves back to their native countries when they commit a crime, but it will do very little to prevent violent crime because its a punishment not a deterrent and those committing murders generally aren’t rationally considering what will happen to their life if they commit the murder (certainly not at the time of rage, at least).
It’s possible that 287(g) could lead to fewer infractions among illegals, if only due to the threat that they won’t be able to stay and work if they commit a crime. However, you guys would claim that since they are already breaking the law they don’t respect the law regardless — so how exactly would an additional law prevent anything from happening?
Just trying to get some clarity in the thought process here. If they are all lawbreakers no matter what, an additional law or rule (like 287(g)) will have very little effect. If they aren’t really all lawbreakers, well many of the views of the extreme anti-illegal community would have to be rethought.
Disgusting…
and they say they dont commit crimes and just want to work…
Greg,
Did you report that there was a murder reported last week that was committed by an American citizen who was black? Did you report there was another murder recently committed by a white man. Did you report that two hispanic males minding their own business were beaten and robbed by two black men. Let us use common sense. There are many people who are bad in all races and ethicities. Murder is a crime and anyone who commits a murder must be dealt with by the law of the land but why don’t you start reporting all the murders instead of singling out one group of people. You sound more and more prejudice every day.
FHL: Yes, there are murders committed every day by legal American citizens. Yes, there are murders committed every day by illegal people. Get rid of the illegals, make it virtually impossible for someone to enter the country illegally, and you cut down on the murder rate. DUH
This murder occurried in Prince William County not in the City of Manassas. Only one murder in the City.
For the past two or three days they’ve been warning women in the Fairfax area and parts of Maryland about a rash of rapes/attempted rapes/inappropriate touching yet they’ve failed to describe all but one of the suspects. I know in Alexandria there have been women harrassed on the jogging trails by men described as being hispanic hiding in the woods for years.
What’s even sicker is every morning since school has started I’ve witnessed the work vans slow down everytime they pass the buss stops to lear at the school girls. There is no way I’d ever let my daughter wait at a buss stop in Manassas.
Are they all illegal? I have no clue, but it’s obvious they’re not familiar with what’s appropriate and TOTALLY inappropriate behavior.
W/T article on Chertoff’s flaccid approach to sanctuary citites at http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070906/NATION/109060085/1001.
FHL, Why don’t you come up with a new argument? “There are many people that are bad in all races and ethnicities”. No kidding. The point IS this murder would NOT have occurred if this individual was NOT here illegally! Stop with the excuses.
What is the big deal? If the MJM, and other defenders of illegals aliens do not think this murder is a reason to clamp down on people we just don’t understand, why should we care? I’m sure the MJM will be able to spin this into a positive, the guy showed determination in coming back to America. Do you think he would show such determination in coming back to America if there were not jobs here for him to do that Americans refuse to do.
Can Christian Molina become our “Willie Horton?”
Greg,
The Wash. Post also had an article on this. Mando made a good point. When a rape or attack has occured and the person who committed it is still at large, I would think that our media people in cooperation with the police provide a description of the person. It is hard to look out for someone when you don’t have a clue as to who to look for. Thanks!
NANCY LYALL WILL BE ON LAURA INGRAM, 570 am RADIO AT ABOUT 10:05 THIS MORNING - TURN ON YOUR RADIOS.
This will stop only when corrupt politicians love law and order more than they love campaign contributions.
@Patty
The question that begs to be asked of the papers and police in Ffx and MD, why haven’t descriptions been given out? If they’re warning women, and they certainly have been for the past few days, wouldn’t it be prudent to give a description of the perpetrator(s)?
I mean, this is something that seems to be problematic as of late. An obvious lack of descriptions of perpetrators. Case in point is the tiny blurb in MJM weeks ago about the gang rape and stabbing in Manassas Park. No descriptions.
Don’t women, the prey, deserve to know what their predators look like?
mando
Women, most certainly deserve to know what the predators look like. A description would be great, but a picture would be the better, probably a mug shot already on file. I have a teenage daughter that walks to school. Can you imagine my fears over here? The media might fear outlash from public. They would sound a little one sided because most perps. would have the same description. I heard 12 murders per day in USA, at the hands of ILLEGAL ALIENS!! This was read at 2pm citizen’s time Tuesday at PWCBOS.
We must not rest until the 287(g) program is up and running statewide. Enough is enough. We must sign the petition, and write, call, fax, email and snail mail all officials in Richmond.
Did anyone hear Nancy Lyall on Laura Ingraham today? I missed it, but later heard LI say it was quite heated.
Murder is murder. Obviously, even murder among acquaintances is serious and demands a strong law enforcement response.
But, where was your outrage about this murder of a father in your community by a stranger motivated by ethnic animus?
Should I assume that your silence means that your response would be to say, “if the victim wasn’t here illegally he wouldn’t be dead?” … implying he has no right to protection from racially motivated violence even where it is obvious the perpetrators did not know his status when they shot him seven times?
From the Washington Post, May 31, 2007, page W01:
“A Woodbridge teenager pleaded guilty to first-degree murder this week in a homicide that law enforcement officials say demonstrates the dangers Hispanic immigrants face in the county.
Authorities said that the teenagers decided they were going to “get a Mexican” on that day, Sept. 10, and Negrete just happened to walk by alone. Negrete, 32, had come from Mexico a year earlier, leaving his wife and three children to work as a day laborer. He was walking up the driveway to the lot of faded trailers when he was shot seven times.
Napier and McToy each have told authorities that the other pulled the trigger, but both admit to participating in the crime, Assistant Commonwealth’s Attorney John B. Arledge said. A receipt they stole from Negrete, showing he had just sent money home, was found in the apartment the teenagers shared, Arledge said.
The two also took Negrete’s cellphone and a calling card, leaving the few dollars he had in his pocket, authorities said.
Street robberies have been on the rise in the county, with Hispanic immigrants particularly vulnerable because they sometimes carry large amounts of cash, authorities said.
“The problem is that they make good victims, and they have been targeted because they are disinclined to report the robberies,” Arledge said.
Even as the overall crime rate dropped in the county, street robberies, primarily of Hispanics, continue to increase, according to police statistics. In 2006, the number of robberies rose 40.4 percent from 2005, which was up from the previous year. Many are believed to go unreported.”
Ok, time to send a message. Obviously we were waaayyyy to generous the last time we deported him. It’s time for this bastard to meet Sparky!!!!
FHL wrote:
“Murder is a crime and anyone who commits a murder must be dealt with by the law of the land”
FHL, I hate to be the one who tells you this but.. being in the USA illegally is also a crime.. why should that “law of the land” not be administered?
Who makes the decision that certian laws should be enforced and others ignored? you?
Corey Stewart will be testifying before Congress today on illegal aliens. I’m sure he’ll bring this up.
http://virginiavirtucon.wordpress.com/2007/09/06/corey-stewart-to-testify-before-congress-today-on-illegal-aliens/
Liberal illegal alien apologists like Claire and FHL (freedom hating liberal) use the same story over and over again of one illegal murder while we keep hearing numerous cases of illegals murdering, raping, robbing and doing other crimes to legal U.S. citizens almost daily.
While this may sound harsh Claire, if that murder victim had not been here illegally he would still be alive. Like it or not, it is a fact. The same goes for the other illegals who are crime victims due to their own stupidity for doing such things as carrying around several thousand dollars in cash. You are just looking for trouble doing this.
Let them head back to their own countries if they don’t like being the victim of crime, though it is hard for me to have sympathy for a group being preyed upon who are criminals themselves.
Point one. True, if he wasn’t here in the first place, he wouldn’t be dead (at least not at the hands of these criminals.)
Point two. Everyone deserves to be protected from punks like that.
Point three. There is no implication at all that he did not deserve to be protected. That is just faulty logic being employed to justify your faulty position.
Claire
“Even as the overall crime rate dropped in the county, street robberies, primarily of Hispanics, continue to increase, according to police statistics. In 2006, the number of robberies rose 40.4 percent from 2005, which was up from the previous year. Many are believed to go unreported.””
I personally don’t like crime in my neighborhood at all, and it is of little solace to me if both the perpetrators and victims are illegal immigrants.
Claire,
One reason that no one is focusing on this particular incident of murder is that the case is a year old. Obviously, it is a heinous crime. I don’t believe HSM could have commented on it because HSM did not exist as an organization back then.
I have addressed the issue of unreported crime amongst the illegal immigrant community on several occassions. Illegal status creates an underworld where unreported crime exists and this condition is a danger to that community as well as the legal community.
Are you assuming the 18 year old girl from Guatamala killed in the City of Manassas last month was legal? I believe she was not. Yet if you read back at the comments, I am sure you will find the ‘outrage’ you are looking for.
Additionally, you state that the Sept. 2006 murder victim was a father. Does that imply that his murder was more outrageous than if he had had no children? Are fathers entitled to more protection than those without children?
The entire incident was senseless and I hope the teenager responsible gets the maximum sentence allowed for someone his age. He is a danger to society.
One thing about me Claire, I am an equal opportunist. If I think someone is a scumbag, I don’t care about their race or the sad circumstances of their lives. Hang them all! (or whatever other legal means are available to rid our society of violent criminals.)
@Claire Gastanaga
Bad assumption. That murder happened almost a year ago and when it did happen, I was saddened and outraged.
Saying that the murder was ethnically motivated is far fetched unless by ethnically motivated you mean that it is common knowledge amongst street thugs that illegal aliens carry around large sums of cash. Oh… and also, I haven’t met many politically correct street thugs either… So, while “get a Mexican” may be a faux pas to me or you, to the street thugs it’s probably everyday lingo.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that illegal immigration is costing our nation a lot; not only the millions to support them, but in lives taken and an overall reduction in our quality of life. We need more elected officials like Jackson Miller who recognize the problem and are not affraid to speak their mind and act on it. Many other elected officials (particurarly ay the State and federal level) are not doing their job and are ignoring the issue. Inaction on illegal immigration seems to be the bi-partisan mantra. too bad…
Dolph:
You state you’re an “equal opportunist.” That’s not enough these days to satisfy leftists and illegal alien apologists. You have to be willing to bend over backwards to give every whining minority what you’ve worked for, then be willing to bend over the opposite direction and let them stick it to you. If you’re not willing to submit to these two demands, your a racist, ipso facto, as we say in da bidness.
Claire,
You must likely will ignore this post like you did my other posts(because, of course, you can’t answer the hard questions, and realize you are in fact wrong), but I will post anyway.
You are forgetting one big difference between illegals and those that are not. In the defense of illegals, many defenders will say the illegals are good people, hard working, that came here to just raise a family, etc,. They don’t say most, many, majority, they leave it at all illegals. If we listen to the supporters of illegals, we should never see a story such as this one.
Of course Americans commit crimes, but then nobody says that every single American or legal immigrant is just a hard working, good person, who is just trying to raise a family.
So, if you want people to stop focusing so much on crimes committed by illegals, you and your fellow illegals supporters need to stop the silly argument that every illegal is a good person.
“True, if he wasn’t here in the first place, he wouldn’t be dead (at least not at the hands of these criminals.)”
That’s right, if he hadn’t snuck across the border he’d be dying of starvation.
/sarc
Claire,
You brought up the same tired argument last week. I will tell you now, as I told you then: murder is wrong and those punks should be prosecuted. The legal system is currently dealing with the accused, so how can you claim there is no outrage and no one cares when they are being prosecuted?
Again, a repeat, since you didn’t listen the first time I wrote this: We have to deal with our home grown criminals. We should not have to deal with the illegal criminals imported from other countries. Our home grown crimes are a terrible burden for us. the outrage results from the additional burden of crimes committed by those who should not be here in the first place.
IN 2004 SOMERBODY CRASHED MY BROTHER’S HOUSE IN 102 POLK DR MANASSAS PARK VA A AMERICAN GUY WAS DRIVING INTOXICATED , HE WAS DRIVING ON OLD CENTREVILLE RD AS IF YOU COME FROM 28 HEADING TO THE POST OFFICE HE WAS SPEEDING 70 MPH IN A 25 MPH AREA HE CRASHED ON MY BROTHER’S BED HE CROSSED HIS BEDROOM FROM WALL TO WALL I PICKED MY BROTHER AT THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SECOND WALL, HE WAS BLEEDING ., ANYWAYS THIS GUY WAS WITHOUT CAR INSURANCE, NO DRIVER’S LICENSE . HE DIDN’T HELP IN A GOOD WAY. BUT MY BROTHER DOESN’T HATE THE AMERICANS I DON’T EITHER . EVEN SO WE HAVE MANY AMERICAN FRIENDS SO, IT MEANS NOT EVERYBODY IS THE SAME . NO ONLY LATINOS, NO ONLY AMERICANS , NO ONLY BLACKS IF YOU GO TO COURT YOU WILL SEE CASES IN DIFERENT RACES. I DO NOT AGREE THE FACT OF WHETHER YOU ARE CITIZEN, YOU HAVE MORE POWER THAN ILLEGALS TO MURDER., IT’S THE SAME PUNISHMENT.
COM - Excellent argument!
Did Claire drop the “Howling Latina” moniker? Or was that someone else?
JM, I hope you don’t mind that I will reiterate to Claire what you said so well:
“Again, a repeat, since you didn’t listen the first time I wrote this: We have to deal with our home grown criminals. We should not have to deal with the illegal criminals imported from other countries. Our home grown crimes are a terrible burden for us. the outrage results from the additional burden of crimes committed by those who should not be here in the first place.”
Please, Claire, get it, so we don’t have to continue the same rehash. Move on.
@God man
I don’t hate hispanics. In fact, I’m glad there are hispanics in Manassas. I have 5 houses around me, 4 of which are hispanic households. On an individual basis, I haven’t had any cross dealings with any of them. Sure, there’s been loud music, occasional public intoxications, cars in the yard, etc. None of which I can honestly say I haven’t been guilty of at least once in my life. I know I live in a blue collar neighborhood. I like living in a blue collar neighborhood for the most part. My stance on illegal immagration comes from the fact that I focus on the big picture. It’s a simple fact that illegal immagration at it’s current rate is not sustainable. I’m not saying your dreams of the American dream (assuming you’re not hear legally) aren’t valid or possible. I’m saying that with the current rate of illegal immagration going unchecked the American dream you came here for will no longer be. A working immagration system both here and in Latin America would allow the good guys (like you) in and keep the bad guys (like the MS-13, rapists, thugs) out.
I think we all want the same thing. Good schools, safe neighborhoods, etc.
FHL does not stand for freedom hating liberal. It stands for Faith Hope and Love something a lot of you need. I agree with Claire Castanaga’s comments and can only say DITTO!!!
First of all, I totally agree that we need to get rid of criminals regardless of their race but let’s think about the issue of illegal immigration.
Let’s say that we have 20 million illegal aliens. That represents about 7 % of the total population in th U.S. Is it possible that 7 % of people in the U.S. can destroy the whole system? All hospitals? Take all jobs from poor americans? I agree that they committed a crime when they crossed the border illegally but I don’t think that all of them are a danger to society. I think we have a deeper problem and we want to blame 7% of the population. Just think about it and please don’t come with the logic that one is too many. It is a point but it doesn’t explain the miserable status of our system.
CLAIRE, I AGREE WITH YOU, MURDER IS A MURDER AND CRIME IS A CRIME , IT DOESN’T MATTER WHO COMMIT IT.
IT’S THE SAME CRIME WITHOUT COLOR
Good points FHL and Craig. We will be called apologists but I think it is common sense what we bring to this forum.
Mando:
Well said. Controlled, legal immigration, and even a temporary guest worker program is vital to our economic and social well-being. But our leaders at the federal level have shucked their responsibilities. It’s their fault our schools have faltered and our neighborhoods have become slums. We should never let them forget it. Let’s hope Tom Davis runs for Warner’s seat. He should be defeated in the primary by a Republican who at least did not forsake us. And he should be replaced in the House by someone who has tried to address the problem at the local level. Hopefully, Wolf will be the next do-nothing to exit government service. Maybe he, Allen, and Davis can become drinking buddes.
@ SEEYOURPROBLEM
Assuming that all 20 million of those illegals are working, that’s 20 million people NOT putting money into a system they use for support. That’s a HUGE burden to put on us tax payers.
Remember, as was reported on CNN, day laborers are allowed to earn $100 per day, seven days per week, tax free.
TALK TO THE BABY BOOMERS ABOUT YOUR FUTURE THEY WILL EXPLAIN YOU.
Mando,
You have brought up a point that I think many people have been tip-toeing around. You said you don’t mind living in a blue collar neighborhood. And that’s fine. I cast no judgement there.
However, I do not want to live in a blue collar neighborhood. I want my neighbors to leave their work vehicles at work in the parking lot. I don’t want those vehicles parked out on my street. I also don’t want cars and trucks parked in the yard on my street. I don’t want the house next door to be a boarding house or a hotel. I don’t want my neighors urinating in the bushes outside their house. I want trash disposed of properly and not piled up at the curb for 4 days between hauls. (I imagine many people living in blue collar neighborhoods agree with me on all of the above)
My neighborhood, until the past 2 years, has been a white collar neighborhood. Had I wanted to live in other circumstances, I could have saved myself a boat load of money over the years and just moved into a non-white collar neighborhood to start with, rather than watching mine deterorate before my eyes.
The root of the problem in my neighborhood is not hispanic. It is overcrowding by people who otherwise could not afford to live here without taking in tenants and packing in multiple families.
If my words reflect snobbery to some, sorry about that.
@ dolph
I said blue collar neighborhood. Not slum. I guess I should’ve clarified more. I’ve always considered the majority of Manassas to be blue collar neighborhoods.
Mando,
What do you consider the earmarks of a blue collar neighborhood?
Perhaps you are right about most of Manassas. I never looked at it that way but am doing a rolling head count now of neighborhoods.
@dolph
When one says “white collar” I think of Great Falls. “Blue collar” means, at least to me, something affordable for us every day joes. Typically, 500k and under (at least in today’s housing market - 2 years ago houses in Manassas were frequently breaking the 500k limit). I mean my definition may be off the traditional definition of blue/white collar, but I think the times have changed since the term was originally coined. Originally, I believe “blue collar” meant you worked with your hands and took a shower when you got home, which by definition, I wouldn’t fit under. Nowadays, I see white collar as having a C in front of your title (CEO, CFO, CIA, etc.) and blue collar being us peons under them.
I guess to simplify, blue collar, monetarilly speaking, is being neither poor nor rich. I guess I should just stick with the term middle class
seeyourproblem,
What happened when Crack became a problem in the 80’s? People were pissed and law makers and the police responded to the problem. What happened when people got fed up with drunk driving? The same thing.
People are fed up with illegals, and yes one too many does count. BTW, the Dems love to use that line when it comes to failing kids, yet they don’t use the same line with this issue.
Mando,
You have higher standards than I do. I tend to go with the traditional definition. It allows a little more wiggle room. At least for the middle class.
Sigh, I tend to evaluate the neighborhoods by looking at work related vehicles as far as its ‘collar.’ Right now, if you look in my neighborhood, the collar has gone from white to blue in less than 2 years. I really think people should leave work related vehicles on the lot at their jobs.
There is also a caste system amongst the vehicles: lawn care is way down in the food chain, as are huge trucks filled with tires. Comcast trucks are a little higher cast. I have them all now.
For those ready to pounce, notice which word is missing from the discussion between Mando and me.
Dolph,
I don’t see ant snoberry in your words and I like that exchange between you and Mando gives me a real picture of how your neighborhood has changed.
God man: It is bad that your brother was injured by a drunk with no drivers license or insurance. It has happened to me twice. One difference here though: Did the police arrest this individual, or did he run? I have seen multiple cases of illegals hitting someone and then heading for the Mexican border. Did this American citizen do that? American citizens typically have deeper roots, credit records that can be destroyed, real social security numbers etc. When this guy gets out of prison you can garnish his wages for the damages he caused to you and your brother. You can not do that with an illegal alien.
a nonny mouse: At least he would be alive. The funny thing is I saw pictures of the aftermath of the hurricane in Honduras and Nicaragua and saw plenty of overweight people. I didn’t know we had a famine going on down there.
FaithHopeLove: Even Jesus kicked the money changers out of the temple. I do believe it also says that God helps those who helps themselves, that is all we are trying to do. Those of you who don’t believe in the rule of our laws have plenty of other countries you can head to.
SEEYOURPROBLEM: You are missing a few key points. One of them is that most illegal aliens are concentrated in specific areas. There are many areas of the country that have few if any illegals and do not suffer the problems. To see what effect high numbers of poor and non paying illegals do just head across the border to Maryland and ask the people in Laurel how they feel about the prospects of having no health care facilities. Where there are high concentrations of illegals, there is a high cost to the taxpayer, an overburden on schools and infrastructure, overcrowded housing etc. etc etc. and this is not a fact that can be disputed. Also, when there is a high influx of illegal aliens many lower income people can not get a job and many in trades are priced totally out of the market. How many white or black teens do you see working in McDonald’s or Burger King around here? Many teens need jobs to help their families make ends meet. I see it around here every day.
I have no problem with people to come here legally, but we are becoming the dumping ground for the unwanted peoples of the world, many of whom have little to offer in the way of real skills and are propping up the economies of the countries they have come from by sending most of their money home. If these laws are OK to break, who is to say which laws are OK to enforce and which ones are not?
If we need guest workers, implement a program that will work, have accountability and not let people into the front of the line for citizenship. Hold employers who violate the labor laws accountable with harsh punishment and level the playing field so that all workers can make a fair living and one business can not muscle out another by hiring illegal labor.
Now those of you who chastize me for not responding to some comment or another of yours in response to mine need to cut me some slack. For one thing, it is often difficult to find comments on old threads on this blog. I made a concerted effort to go back and find one exchange that Greg and I had some weeks ago, but after a pretty exhaustive search and futile efforts to use the search engine on the blog to track back, I gave up. So, I apologize if my inadvertant nonresponse was upsetting to you. And, since I’m sure it will happen again, I apologize for inadvertantly ignoring you in the future, too.
You flatter yourselves and your arguments if you think that my failure to respond to every gem that you write is because I haven’t got a cogent response or because I “know that I am wrong.”
I do love the high dudgeon many of you seem to be able to work up over anyone who dissents from your point of view … leaping to stereotypes while decrying such when applied to you ( I could be calling you KKK allies, after all, even though you have criticized their actions and beliefs, because, after all, you’re on the same side of the debate). Engaging in name calling like children on play grounds … “Claire …. you … you … criminal alien apologist” rather than addressing the issues or the arguments doesn’t enhance your position.
I’ll try to respond to a couple of the points made by a couple of the posters here whose responses moved beyond mere name calling and derision and actually sought in some way to add reason to the debate.
First, let me say I am not Howling Latina. That is someone else. And, I’m not a Latina so you all can let go of all those assumptions you made about me based on my last name. Gastanaga is my married name.
Second, I will keep telling the story about the hate murder in Prince William as an example of some of what’s wrong in your community until folks acknowledge that hate is a cancer that can eat through a community and erode the very fabric of our democracy that we all love, and that the KKK came to your town because they believe (I fervantly hope wrongly) it is fertile ground for their evil seed.
Blaming victims for the crimes committed against them, as some of you did as I predicted, is not acceptable whether the victim is a rape victim out alone at night or an undocumented Hispanic worker with cash in his pocket (in part because we have denied him access to banks, even if he gets a Tax ID # and pays taxes).
Dolph: thanks for your reasoned response. I applaud and support equal opportunists whose reasoning and positions are consistent. The reason why I wrote that the victim of the native born American teenagers who were “out to get a Mexican” was a father of three on his way home from work was that I was merely reciting demographic that seemed to fly in the face of the easy assumptions about Latino men many of the comments on this blog seem to make .. that they are all shiftless-drunk-peeing-in-public bums.
As one person pointed out, one cannot make easy or sustainable generalizations about any population including those who are here without documents (and, it is not a crime to be here without authorization, that’s a civil violation; coming back after deportation is a crime, but mere unlawful presence is not)) …. not all undocumented immigrants are good, hardworking people but neither are they all the maurauding gangs of rapists and murderers you all seem to want to describe them as either.
Neither can you assume or imply, as Jay O’Brien did on WAMU-FM the other day, that the growth in the “immigrant population” in Prince William is all persons without the authority to be in the US who are imposing disproportionate costs on the community for services to which they are not entitled and are not paying taxes. That big new Mosque in your midst seems to suggest that a number of the new foreign born folks in your communities are legal and here to stay, along with the long term Hispanic businessmen often quoted in recent weeks, among others.
The reality is that there are a number of very real community problems in Prince William right now but it appears that it is easier for politicians in your county to blame ALL of the consequences of their poor planning for growth on “illegal immigrants” than to accept responsibility for their own inaction and poor leadership.
Much of what passes for fact or data on this blog is a combination of unsubtantiated rumor and gossip, internet mush and anecdotes woven together to create a whole cloth that suits the weaver. I’ve cited real research here (about the costs and benefits of immigration, residential and housing issues, taxes paid by undocumented immigrants, etc) but frankly it isn’t worth my time to do that here because neither the blog’s author nor his allies demonstrate any willingness to look at opposing documentation with anything resembling an open mind or to spend the time doing the research necessary to refute my arguments in these posts. Since I have a real job, I can’t spend all my time trying to educate you guys.
H/T to Orange County who pointed out that a lot of what people believe about what 287g will do is myth. The program is not the panacea you all seek. For one thing, ICE has said they don’t have the resources to provide the training that ICEg every locality will require. For another, 287g agreements only authorize local authorities to initiate paperwork which must be signed by a fed before it is effective.
If you want real change here, as I’ve said many, many times before on this blog, but you aren’t “listening” or “hearing”, you have to do what Corey Stewart did today. You have to go to Capitol Hill and demand federal immigration reform. Nothing else will secure our borders and bring sanity and sense back to our broken system. No sheriff’s department can give you that and no amount of demogoguery will make that reality go away.
And, finally, to JM .. repeat away, sometimes people “listen” but don’t feel the need to respond, just as you and your allies don’t want to “hear” or respond to the fact that crime is down in your county overall and that, as in Fairfax, this has happened as the immigrant population has gone up. That’s not to say that the crime problem in certain neighborhoods or areas isn’t real or hasn’t gone up. I’m sure that it has. But, looking through a narrow lens at a small area and then extrapolating that to “an invasion” , etc., is not good science and doesn’t make for good policy.
and, forewarning, I have two family funerals in the next two days, so, please don’t start in on me when I don’t hop right on to respond on your schedule to whatever diatribe this ridiculously long post provokes.
Claire,
I am sorry for your loss.
Dolph
I guess Claire does have a stake in this issue. Upon reading her little contribution in the following link, it seems that she is pro-amnesty (path to citizenship) and has been indoctrinated in the “let’s discuss and come to a concensus” school. Meanwhile,
**Prince William County is just doing the jobs that Congress doesn’t want to do.**
http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=600&sid=1191187
The major point here is the fact that this man has been caught and deported two or three times already. We have to keep the illegals out of our country. The only way to do this is to tighten the borders.
Not just South, but North as well.
Lets get the illegals out of our country and keep them out!
For more info on Claire Gastanaga’s activities, check out: http://www.cirnow.org/ and click on their press release concerning Hazelton, PA. Interesting spin.
Another interesting spin shows comrades of hers, such as LaRaza:
http://wiki.lonewacko.com/wiki/Coalition-for-Comprehensive-Immigration-Reform
The coalition for comprehensive immigration reform (claire’s group) claims to want the same thing: protecting borders (not sure which ones) but seem to want to keep the illegals here and give them a free pass.
We let the criminals stay and then deport ones whose husbands died as heros:
SAN FRANCISCO - Jacqueline Coats’ husband drowned after he dove into a fierce Pacific Ocean riptide to rescue two boys. Now the immigrant from Kenya might be forced to leave the United States because he died before filing her residency application. She is among more than 80 foreign-born widows across the nation who face possible deportation because their husbands died before immigration paperwork was approved.
Some attorneys want to challenge the government’s policy of rejecting green card requests if an immigrant’s American spouse dies before the application is processed. At least one lawyer plans to file a class-action lawsuit.
“This is a wrong that definitely has to be righted,” said immigration attorney Ralph Pineda of Orlando, Fla.
A group of California congressional lawmakers filed a bill in January asking the Congress to grant Coats legal status, but similar measures for other immigrants have seldom passed.
“It is an outrage and an injustice to the memory of this courageous hero that his wife should suffer the loss of family and livelihood once again,” said Democratic Assembly member Mary Hayashi.
The government has also generally denied applications for permanent residence — so-called “green cards” — for surviving spouses of U.S. citizens if the death occurs during the first two years of marriage.
Coats came to U.S. in 2001 to attend San Jose State University. During her stay, she met Marlin Coats — a U.S. citizen and a dependable, family oriented man. He wooed her with flowers and his flair for comedy. Two years later, they were married.
Her husband’s large family — he had seven siblings, some of them married with children — became like her own. They celebrated Christmas and Thanksgiving together, and grew to rely on each other.
“They’re my family here,” Jacqueline Coats said.
But while she was a student, she lost her legal immigration status. She had come on a student visa, which requires a full-time schedule. When time conflicts between classes left her three units short, immigration officials were notified.
Deportation proceedings began 11 days before her wedding, she said.
After the wedding, attorneys advised Marlin Coats to enter a petition for residency in his wife’s name. Although her immigration status had lapsed, she had entered legally, so nothing prevented her from staying.
The papers were signed and ready to go last year when Marlin Coats and his siblings took their mother to San Francisco’s Ocean Beach for Mother’s Day.
Marlin Coats was on the sand when he heard two children screaming from the chilly water. He was a great swimmer and a former lifeguard, so his family didn’t worry when he kicked off his shoes and dove in.
A rescue crew saved the two boys, but the fierce currents were too much for Coats. After his death, he was awarded one of the Coast Guard’s highest honors, the Gold Lifesaving Medal.
Attorneys for some of the estimated 85 widows affected nationally say the government has interpreted federal law too harshly.
Virginia Kice, a spokeswoman with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, said the case was unusual because the Coatses had not submitted an application before Marlin Coats’ death.
If a couple has been married for less than two years, and the application has been approved, the foreign-born spouse can seek a review that is considered on a case-by-case basis, according to immigration officials.
But if an application is pending at the time of death, “then it’s not considered,” said Chris Rhatigan, a spokeswoman for Citizenship and Immigration Services in Washington, D.C. Exceptions include widows of active military personnel.
Brent Renison, a Portland, Ore., immigration attorney, has led the effort to change the law or ease its interpretation. He said lack of response from the government and the failure of immigration reform in Congress forced him to consider a class-action lawsuit, which he plans to file this week in Los Angeles federal court.
Widows named in the complaint include Carolyn Robb Hootkins, a former personal chef to the British royal family and the widow of actor William Hootkins, who had roles in “Star Wars,” “Raiders of the Lost Ark,” “Batman” and other films.
Jacqueline Coats’ deportation proceedings have been suspended while lawmakers consider the bill in Congress seeking residency on her behalf.
In Florida, Pineda’s clients include Dahianna Heard, a Venezuelan woman whose husband was shot last year by insurgents while he worked as a contractor in Iraq. The couple’s son, who is a U.S. citizen, faces an uncertain future if his mother is deported.
“A lot of these people have exhausted their resources, have been denied work permits, driver’s licenses, a regular life,” Renison said. “The ironic thing is that if they just remarried, they could reapply. But outside of that, they don’t have any other options.”
Regardless of how tough we want to talk, there will eventually have to be compromises. It is sort of the American way.
One of the difficult tasks in compromise is finding out what we have in common; finding areas we can agree upon. Consensus building is pretty much how the world works. The world isn’t black or white, good and evil.
Unfortunately, Prince William County cannot do the job that Congress (or the president) doesn’t want to do. We can make a start to improve our own communities, but the immigration problem will eventually have to be solved by the level of government that owns the power.
correction: good OR evil
Legal2,
How on earth do you propose to remove 12-20 million people from the United States?
Right now, what we basically have is silent amnesty.
As much as many of us would like to remove illegal immigrants from our communities, I simply do not see that happening, if for no other reason, the logistics of doing it. Currently, I think we might be able to remove the criminal element but as for your rank and file ‘illegal,’ I don’t think it is going to happen.
I guess they can get back the same way they came. How is amnesty (silent or otherwise) going to help?
Legal2,
I am not suggesting that it will help anything. I am just saying that is what we now have…silent amnesty because by doing nothing, we are silently saying it is ok to be here.
My other point is, they aren’t going to go back unless our government makes it happen. I also do not see that happening.
Dolph - you must be a night person too!
As more local governments work on this, illegals are migrating away. It is happening all over the country. We do not have to wait any longer for the feds to take action. Hazelton, PA, appeals are not in yet. Many local groups work effects change of elected officials and states also proceed to enforce existing laws. If it didn’t make any difference, then why are the socialist groups like msf/uitc/wwc stirred up and finding it necessary to broaden their base by including “all immigrants” when it is about ILLEGAL ALIENS? Did you hear M. Wood testify before the BOCS on Tuesday? She has heard these people being told that their sick grandmothers won’t be able to call an ambulance - talk about exploiting people. They have no shame.
With illegal immigration a hot topic in the Prince William area, the county police will make more of an effort to publicize the identity and immigration status of those suspected of committing violent criminal acts, said Prince William County police Chief Charlie T. Deane.
Along with Commonwealth’s Attorney Paul B. Ebert and Col. Charles “Skip” Land of the Prince William-Manassas regional jail, Deane held a press conference Thursday at the West District Station off Wellington Road.
The impetus for the press conference came after a recent spate of violent crimes allegedly committed by illegal immigrants. The most recent case was Sept. 2 when Manassas resident Christian Molina, also known as Jose Maximino Flores-Perales, was charged in the murder of 51-year-old Ronald Dean Hollingsworth.
The press conference also came on the heels of a July resolution passed by the Board of County Supervisors that could eventually eliminate some county services to illegal immigrants.
“We understand the board’s concerns and the community’s concern about all these issues associated with illegal immigration,” Deane said. “We understand what’s going on in the community.”
Molina, 30, had been deported in 2003 and 2005 after being arrested six times over a five-year period in Texas. He had also been arrested in Manassas Park for driving under the influence in January of this year, as well as in Manassas in July for assault and battery.
On the most recent charge, Molina had been released on $1,500 bond because there was no Immigration and Customs Enforcement detainer placed on him at the time, said Deane. Deane speculated that a lack of technology on the local level and the fact that the suspect had several aliases may have prevented ICE from placing another detainer on him.
However, with the recent ICE training of selected regional jail officers, as well as impending new technology, cases like Molina’s should be handled differently, said Ebert. Part of that new technology includes a fingerprint identification system that automatically links to computers at ICE.
“It’s going to help law enforcement in the long run, because hopefully it will keep some of these folks that are career criminals out of our jurisdiction,” Ebert said.
Land said it will only be a matter of 10 days or so before the new technology is set up.
“Without having the equipment, our people are actually having to do paperwork at the jail and travel to Sterling to use their equipment to verify,” Land said. “We are not 24 hours yet, we are still in training mode. When the equipment gets hooked up, then we become operational.”
Before the recent ICE training of regional jail officers, the county often cooperated with the federal group when tracking down violent, gang-related criminals. According to Deane, there have been 364 people placed in the deportation process in the last three and a half years due, in part, to the county’s membership in the Northern Virginia Regional Gang Task Force.
Deane also spoke briefly about two other cases. The first was a sexual assault case on Aug. 27 in which two illegal immigrants — Jose Ramirez, 19, and Portifirio Ramirez-Baca, 34 — were arrested for assault and battery and abduction with intent to defile. Ramirez-Baca had already been deported in 1997 for avoiding inspection upon arrival into the United States.
The second case occurred on Aug. 25. Illegal immigrant Jose Anibal Canales, 25, of Woodbridge is suspected of rape and abduction with intent to defile and is still at large, according to police. Unlike the other suspects, Canales has no record of previous deportation but had been arrested for DUI, identity fraud, driving on a suspended license and driving after the forfeiture of a license in Prince William County, Arlington and by the Pentagon police.
Ebert said he thinks one way to stop or slow down those criminals who choose to return from deportation or cross the border illegally is to punish them for their crimes in the United States, instead of turning them over to ICE right away.
“A lot of folks come back to this country quicker than a tourist can get back and it’s just not right,” Ebert said.
I see in the coming months a “squeeze” operation, once they start leaning on businesses (which Kaine is reluctant to do) then we’ll start seeing results. Look at Arizona, they are already leaving and the new laws they enacted have not even taken affect. Threaten a businesses license and that’s all she wrote. That wont affect day laborers, but it will make them easier to catch, just target the 7-11’s
I figure if we start cutting of their source of income, they’ll hit the road and not come back, if we can put up the wall on the border will also improve things. Basically, if we start enforcing the existing laws to the letter then things will improve big time….ICE should actively be going after these places instead of granting silent amnesty.
Legal2,
You just resorted to attacks to Claire and her group but you haven’t said anything to support your claims against her points. Dolph made a good point about silent amnesty that I think the U.S. Congress needs to address. You will always find loophole in whatever the local governments do.
TH, I am simply informing the readers. Claire continues to rehash and has an agenda because she works for a coalition with goals inimical to fixing the illegal alien problem in any meaningful way. I will not be drawn into any “dialogue” with you, TH, because you have issues, reading comprehension being one of them (see other threads).
Just say whatever you want about reading and comprehension. It doesn’t make you smarter or help you solve the problem with illegal aliens next to you. Send me back to school and then your problems will be fixed. It would be great if you coulfd offer an answer to the rest of the bloggers in this forum. I won’t understand but they will.
It could be legal that you are hidding in that superiority to avoid answering questions. I think my questions are clear enough for you to understand. It could be that the English skills you master are not giving you any advantage.
Since when defending a point makes you one of them. As Claire said then just because the KKK is against illegal immigration you are just one of them too. It doesn’t make sense, right?
There are people here with issues that go beyond reading and comprehension and still you engage in a dialogue.
Trumpeting your own tune won’t solve the problems and issue you face
I understand what TH is saying. Just answer the questions Legal2
Here is another good resource on the issue from good ol’ Georgia, the state that’s just doing the jobs Congress doesn’t want to do: http://www.thedustininmansociety.org/ Be sure to visit sidebar items.
You are not answering TH or Claire questions.
The last post was for you legal2. Do you have something in your brain or just websites you have seen?
Yes.
Here’s an article on the topic:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103 which includes this:
“Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa. If those numbers are correct, it translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens. That’s 21,900 since Sept. 11, 2001.”
Subtitle for the above worldnetdaily article: “Death toll in 2006 far overshadows total U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq, Afghanistan”
The above article concludes: “In April 2005, the Government Accountability Office released a report on a study of 55,322 illegal aliens incarcerated in federal, state, and local facilities during 2003. It found the following:
“The 55,322 illegal aliens studied represented a total of 459,614 arrests – some eight arrests per illegal alien;
Their arrests represented a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses – some 13 offenses per illegal alien;
36 percent had been arrested at least five times before.
‘While the vast majority of illegal aliens are decent people who work hard and are only trying to make a better life for themselves and their families, (something you or I would probably do if we were in their place), it is also a fact that a disproportionately high percentage of illegal aliens are criminals and sexual predators,’ states Peter Wagner, author of a new report called “The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration.” ‘That is part of the dark side of illegal immigration and when we allow the ‘good’ in we get the ‘bad’ along with them. The question is, how much ‘bad’ is acceptable and at what price?’ “
You forgot to add this information:
[1] An arrest does not necessarily result in a prosecution or a
conviction.
Results in Brief: How many and what type of criminal offenses were they
arrested for?
For our study population of 55,322 illegal aliens:
* They were arrested for at least a total of nearly 700,000 criminal
offenses, averaging 13 offenses per alien.
* About 24 percent were drug offenses.
* About 21 percent were immigration offenses.
* About 15 percent were property-related offenses such as burglary,
larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and property damage.
* About 12 percent were for murder, robbery, assault, and sexually
related crimes.
* The remaining 28 percent were for other offenses such as traffic
violations, including driving under the influence; fraud—including
forgery and counterfeiting; weapons violations; and obstruction of
justice.
Results in Brief: What states were they arrested in?
For our study population of 55,322 illegal aliens:
* Eighty percent of all arrests occurred in the following 3 states.
California: 58 percent.
Texas: 14 percent.
Arizona: 8 percent.
See the study here, don’t read filtered information. That way you learn on your own:
http://www.gao.gov/htext/d05646r.html
The aprt dealing with convictions I think this is the most important part of the study because not all arrests lead to convictions:
Convictions: Federal Prison Illegal Alien Inmates: Almost 90 percent of
this portion of our study population was convicted of immigration or
drug offenses:
Offense: Immigration;
Number: 12,694;
Percent: 68%.
Offense: Drugs;
Number: 3,978;
Percent: 21%.
Offense: Unknown;
Number: 1,183;
Percent: 6%.
Offense: Weapons, explosives, arson;
Number: 251;
Percent: 1%.
Offense: Fraud, bribery, extortion ;
Number: 185;
Percent: 1%.
Offense: Burglary, larceny, property crimes;
Number: 95;
Percent: 1%.
Offense: Assault;
Number: 41;
Percent:
I don’t understand how this works. If we want all policeman to have the 287 training then they can arrest illegals for being illegal. So then who takes them back to their country?
Thta is the isue anon. ICE won’t take all of them. There is no money in their budget to take every illegal alien that police captures. If they are taken by ICE, we have to pay to send them back (airplane and everything)
Claire,
The community does respond when crime gets out of control or when they have had enough of an issue.
Again, think about DUI crackdowns, child molestation crack downs, gang crackdowns. All of those crimes or issues at one time or another were not taken as seriously as they should have been. Not anymore. So, attacking illegal immigration is nothing new when it comes to outrage among the community.
OH, by the way, working in the United States while here illegally is a crime, not paying taxes is a crime, ID fraud is a crime. I could go on, but I think you get the picture.
Am I reading your crime stats right?
55,322 arrests (not convictions?) among 12,000,000 to 20,000,000 undocumented people means that somewhere between 5 one thousandths of 1 % (.005%) on the high side and 3 one thousandths of 1% (.003) on the low side of undocumented people in the United States have been arrested and that 68% or more two-thirds of those are in jail for immigration violations?
Nope, I’m not, because, among other things, the study makes clear that the report is a snapshot estimate of criminal aliens incarcerated as of December 27, 2003 and the study states clearly:
” Results of our analysis pertain only to our study population [the unique inmates identified as being in prison on December 27, 2003]. Results cannot be generalized to all illegal aliens that may have been arrested and therefore cannot be interpreted as representing arrest or offense rates for all illegal aliens. ”
This means that we cannot infer and do not know anything about the prison population now, nor do we have data to compare this report to the general rate of arrest/incarceration of criminal citizens/legal residents in a snapshot taken the same day or since.
That’s not to say that we should not be concerned about there being 55,000+ criminal aliens in our prisons on any date, we should, or that we shouldn’t want to be sure that all of those convicted of crimes will be deported when their sentences have been served, we should.
It is to say that we should be careful to state accurately what the data represent, use caution in deciding what conclusions we draw from the data and apply some restraint in using such limited data to bolster overstated and undersupported arguments.
To Legal2 … of course I have a stake in the immigration issue, both personal and professional. My husband is a Latino who, even as a Puerto Rican, native born US citizen and former member of the US Coast Guard, has been asked “how long have you been in this country” and subjected to other forms of discrimination simply because of his surname and accent. My niece and namesake is half Chinese. I don’t want her growing up in an America in which she will be regarded with suspicion or distaste because of her mixed heritage. Whether it is your experience or not, whether it is anyone’s intent, it is my personal experience that the climate in Virginia for Latinos and other ethnic and language minorities is becoming more hostile regardless of the lawful status of the persons involved.
It is no secret (to anyone who knows me or has seen me quoted with the tagline “advocate for immigrant organizations”) that I get paid to advocate on behalf of immigrant organizations; the more than 3,000 people who have viewed my blogger profile know that as does anyone who looks up registered lobbyists on the state’s website. I choose my paid work carefully to reflect my passions and beliefs so there is congruence between the personal and professional here and in other work I do.
In implying criticism of me for having a “stake” in the issue, are you saying that Greg L. and others posting here don’t have a “stake” in the immigration issue? [by the way, how much is Greg L. getting in his tip jar or for advertising on this blog (number one conservative blog …), the traffic to which has increased as he has chosen to emphasize the immigration issue?].
In criticizin me about some repetition of arguments or points, are you saying that neither you nor Greg L. have ever rehashed or perseverated about a point or an argument? That dog won’t hunt.
I acknowledge repeating arguments from time to time in comments on this blog (and on others) largely because I don’t know that a person reading one set of comments has ever read any of the blog or the comments posted before. So, regular readers might see some repetition from me, as they do from you. That just the way it is out here in the blogosphere where some of us are actively trying to educate.
Now, how about these stats that are said to show that crime has gone done 40% in Loudoun county while the immigrant population has increased and that crime is lowest among undocumented aliens?
http://www.loudounforce.org/?p=45#more-45
Dolph:
Thanks for your expression of sympathy.
Claire
I somewhat doubt that the family of CJ Angelos, who was murdered by a group of MS-13 members who were illegal aliens, or any of the other families that have suffered similar devastating losses will be very comforted to learn that illegal aliens as a class may be less likely to commit crimes than the general population. These crimes are 100% preventable, if only law enforcement at all levels, federal, state and local were actually enforcing our laws and ensuring that we didn’t have illegal aliens unlawfully residing in our communities.
Many folks are pretty upset, and rightly so, that anyone in the U.S. is dying at the hands of those who aren’t supposed to be here in the first place. They’re also very disturbed that in many cases these criminals have had previous interactions with law enforcement prior to them taking lives which might have allowed law enforcement authorities to determine their legal status and have them deported prior to the tragedies they’ve caused. When citizens know that they would suffer sever penalties for the minor infractions they’re charged with, but that illegal aliens seem to so easily escape the consequences of their unlawful actions, it gives the appearance that there’s one set of rules for citizens, and a significantly less stringent set of rules applied to illegal aliens.
How many folks have I spoken with who reported that illegal aliens charged with driving without a license are given a slap on the wrist, Caucasians are given heavy fines, and African Americans are given jail time? At least a dozen. Whether this consistently reported impression is actually what happens is still to be determined, which is why I haven’t talked about this much, but there’s a perception that appears legitimate that equal protection of the law just isn’t happening. Based non their personal experiences, there’s a lot of people believe that illegal aliens are “more equal” than citizens. Until their experiences change, no amount of statistics are likely to change their opinions.
Claire,
Why don’t you respond to my posts?????
What is a person of “color” I guess I am an ethnic person, but I guess not one of the special ones that you want to protect.
Your BS about ethnic minorities (whatever that might be) having a harder and harder time here in Virginia is just that. If anything it is getting easier. There are more opportunities then ever before for all people living in the Commonwealth.
Though to stay in “business” you have to conjure up all of these “difficulties” that minorities have. You will never admit things are going good for “ethnic minorities”.
I suppose the fact we do have tens of thousands of illegals, “ethnic minorities living in the State, sort of says just the opposite of what you are pushing-life must be pretty good for them, why else would they have come here?
Though, I do not disagree that illegals of every ethnicity should have it rough here.
What do you think of an illegal who uses stolen identity? Does not pay taxes, works here? They may not be in the criminal system, but that should be a reason to not count them as a criminal.
Citizen:
I don’t respond to your every post because generally you don’t offer any rational arguments or facts to which to respond. You never offer anything other than opinion, impression, or beliefs … and, since, I believe that you’re entitled to your beliefs (e.g., believing that ethnic minorities experience no discrimination in Virginia and that discrimination is not increasing as the rhetoric heats up), even if wrong, I see no reason to respond to your assertion of them or perceive any benefit to be derived from investing my time that way.
It is interesting that the data show that a significant percentage of criminal aliens in jail/prison are there for using false ID or for violating immigration laws rather than for murder or other violent felonies. I have never sought to defend anyone’s “right” to steal identities or to forge documents, quite to the contrary. Obviously, a significant number who do so are being caught, prosecuted and convicted as they should be.
I do dispute your assertion (without factual predicate) that every immigrant who works here without authorization is not paying taxes; in fact, many are:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/14/politics/main549153.shtml
http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060501.shtml
http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/04/11_tonessb_illegal/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18077009/
http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ex=1270353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090taxes.asp
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881584
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/04/13/news/state/13_17_204_12_07.txt
http://www.ilctr.org/news/pdf/imm_taxes_use_of_welfare.pdf
http://www.vahcc.com/news_policy.html
http://www.gbpi.org/pubs/garevenue/20060119.pdf
And, if we secured our borders and offered a path to legal status for those who are already here, many more would become taxpaying legal residents/citizens and contributors to the economy … benefitting us all.
Note: This is the last time I will post on this comment thread.
Claire
Oh, it’ll all be better of we just gave them amnesty and shielded them from any consequences of their unlawful behavior. That’s rich.
I care not a whit about what studies are done that might say that some illegal aliens are having taxes withheld. The anecdotal evidence that we’re constantly confronted with would indicate that many have engaged in identity fraud, or outright theft, or are being paid cash under the table and not paying taxes.
When “studies” are wildly at odds with personal experience, they don’t tend to hold a lot of weight with folks. It’s sort of like having “climate models” used to provide evidence of man-made global warming in studies, or touting that a collection of gynecologists and psychologists have all agreed that human-induced global warming is settled science. So may of these “studies” aren’t worth being printed on toilet paper, and it’s getting tiresome to hear about them.
We tend to live in the real world, amidst real problems while suffering real consequences. Your “studies” don’t change those realities.
Okay … this really will be my last post on this thread …
I am not advocating amnesty nor is the Coalition for Comprehensive Immigration Reform for which I served for a time as Virginia coordinator … favoring a path to legalization that involves stiff penalties for prior violations of civil immigration violations isn’t “amnesty” anymore than our current system here in Virginia that allows people who commit traffic infractions or misdemeanors to respond to a summons by volunteering to pay a fine to redress their violations of our laws.
I do love when an advocate states that facts don’t matter and that generalized statements from anecdotal reports are more reliable evidence of what’s happening.
Of course, if I were to take the same tack, and argue that “out here in the real world” discrimination is occuring and hate is spreading to adversely affect the lives of all immigrants (regardless of lawful status) based on the reported experiences of many people I know who are ethnic, language, or racial minorities, you and your colleagues would attack me for playing the race card, etc., etc. and tell me that’s not happening simply because you don’t want to believe that this is the predictable and real effect of the inhospitable rhetoric of many in your “movement”, regardless of your intent.
See, e.g., criticism of those who discounted the recent study of racial profilling as not producing data in synch with their real world experience:
http://www.newsadvance.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=LNA/MGArticle/LNA_BasicArticle&cid=1173352642032&c=MGArticle
The shrill emotionalism of your rejection of research and science is typical of someone who knows that an injection of truth and fact into the debate will undermine their ability to continue to spread and provoke fear with ill informed rhetoric and rumor mongering.
Parse the studies, say why the research isn’t valid or might be biased if you don’t agree with the conclusions.
As a friend of my often said, “a man not shackled by the truth can win any argument.”
’nuff said.
that’s mine not my … I do wish you had a preview panel … sorry
Claire,
Run and hide just like the typical liberal when faced with facts.
First off, you say you do not support amnesty, then you say if we legalized illegals even more would pay taxes. Well, how exactly does that work out? Is it something like I voted for the bill before I voted against the bill? Or, what does is mean?
How do the millions upon millions of illegals that line up for work in parking lots across the Nation pay taxes?
The fact is if Virginia was not a good place for all to live, those that felt it was not, would not move here in the first place, or move out, that is not happening at all. If you look at the articles this week in both the Washington Times, and the COMPOST, it shows immigration is fueling the growth here in Virginia. So, what do you have to say to that(nothing of course because you ran like a typical liberal).
It is so sad to see someone who supposedly has enough faith in their position to run and hide. No, make that funny. HA HA HA.
What facts? You haven’t cited any and Greg L. claims that facts are irrelevant to the discourse preferring to rely on anecdote and rumor over data.
Read the studies. Look at the facts. Make a comment that includes a measure of reason. Then, your comments might be worth a response.
I’m not running and hiding anywhere. I’m just bored with the repetition of the same old tired diatribes and shibboleths on this thread. Look for me elsewhere … on other threads and other blogs. You won’t find me here again but you won’t find me hard to find.
P.S. Webster’s defines amnesty as the act of an authority by which pardon is granted to a large group of individuals. I challenge you to find any place in which I have advocated that anyone receive a pardon for past immigration violations. The path to legalization that I support requires sanctions in the form of fines for anyone who has violated immigration laws (as well as payment of any back taxes owed). That is not amnesty. Just as it is not amnesty when a person voluntarily pays a fine upon receiving a summons for a misdemeanor.