A Great Smackdown
By Greg L | 7 September 2007 | Illegal Aliens, Prince William County | 107 Comments
Nancy Lyall, the legal coordinator of Mexicans Without Borders was a guest on the Laura Ingraham show the other evening, and got utterly demolished. One of my favorite parts was when she told the listeners that she was more in accord with the position of Felipe Calderon, the president of Mexico, than she was with our elected leaders in Prince William. Also worth listening to was having Laura Ingraham educate her on what constitutional “separation of powers” is actually all about.
For those of you who haven’t been following the blather from our neighbor to the south, here are some of his recent comments:
Mexico does not end at its borders. … Where there is a Mexican, there is Mexico.”
“I want to express again an energetic protest at the unilateral measures taken by the U.S. Congress and government which exacerbate the persecution and abusive treatment of undocumented Mexican workers. The Mexican government will continue to insist firmly … on the need for an integral immigration reform and the categorical rejection of the building of a wall on our common border.”
Yep, I’d say it’s an accurate statement that Mexicans Without Borders would endorse this kind of lunacy.
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Well, that was a good arse whuppin’ if I ever heard one.
[Don’t yell at me…. I’m not yelling at you. I’m trying to talk some sense into you.]
ROFLMAO!
That was pure awesome.
What was so awesome about it. And, indeed, she yelled. Laura is a nasty woman who, when unable to come up with a sensible answer at a normal voice level, begins to shout, and just like O’Reilly ends the interview with a degrading comment with no time for a response. “Thanks for being on the show” UNPLUG!
Way to slap the Liberal down. Laura is right, Lyall should know what she is talking about before she opens her mouth.
I think old “chickenlips” got schooled again. MSF might want to figure out a new spokeswoman, she keeps getting spanked.
Hey Josh, Nancy is just fine. She is more hinderance to MSF than good.
I agree,
she’s got my vote to stay on!
Perhaps she enjoys it?????
Lovisa,
I have never listened to Laura before. I don’t listen to talk radio. If I did, I wouldn’t listen to her because of her voice. It was almost as annoying as the words of Nancy Lyall.
However, I will agree with you about hosts shouting over top of guests they do not agree with. On the other hand, why on earth would Nancy Lyall agree to go on a show like that? Is she a masochist?
What amazes me is that Nancy Lyall, “Legal Coordinator” for MSF and WWC holds herself out to be an expert on the constitutionality of laws and ordinances, when in-fact she is no lawyer, has not passed the bar, and is by all accounts a former school teacher. In spite of her total lack of legal qualifications, she chose to argue with Laura Ingraham. Ingraham IS an attorney, has a law degree, and clerked for Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas.
Nancy, Nancy, Nancy. Don’t you know you should never bring a knife to a gunfight?
dolph - I’ve never heard that woman before either. And like you - I don’t understand why anyone would want to expose him/herself to abuse like that. Yes, Nancy was nuts to go on. - ANON. might have an explanation for Laura’s nastiness when he says she clerked for Clarence Thomas!
And, people holding signs calling American’s racist’s for attempting to ETL (enforce the law) aren’t nasty!!
Nancy Lyall is a “multi-cultural specialist” for the Prince William County School system. She is not a lawyer and got it handed to her by a sharp attorney. Nancy likes to declare the immigration system to be broken and therefore her constituents do not have to follow the law. Unfortunately for her, she got a lesson from a real attorney that all laws are to be followed regardless if they are “broken” and they are to be fixed by the legislature.
[Ed note: Nancy hasn’t worked for the PWCPS in several years. Not sure about the lawyer thing — she’s listed as “legal coordinator” for MSF, which would suggest she is.]
“ANON. might have an explanation for Laura’s nastiness when he says she clerked for Clarence Thomas!”
Racist!
Does this moonbat Lyall really believe what she says or is she just saying what she is paid to say? This is the real question.
Wheres the rest of the interview? It seems to just cut off with no warning. I wanted to hear the rest of Lyall’s bag of lies.
Anonymous - Racist, my foot! I saw him during his confirmation hearings and he could have been polka dot as far as I’m concerned. Nastiness has nothing to to with race or color. Just look at some of the comments written here! And I bet 99.9 percent of the writers are colorless.
Dave B. “It seems to just cut off with no warning”. Well, that’s exactly what I said about the host getting the last word and then UNPLUG!
Would someone explain to me how the ICE process works after an arrest. Once the illegal is arrested by a local officer (who now has federal authority because of 287) who and or how are they returned to their country?
All must bow to the rich pursuing their dream of a diverse community, I mean, uh, cheap labor.
I agree!
From a non-partisan viewpoint (and I’m biting my lip ’cause I’m a staunch conservative), hearing Ingraham rail on her is no surprise. And we can poopoo Rush, Hannity, O’Reilly too. They all *control* their adversaries on their radio and TV shows. They need to feed their core market audience. Follow the money!
And, of course, on the other side you have Colmes, Franken, Mathews, et al. I’ve never heard them not interrupt their adversaries on the other side. Apply the same standard. Whats good for the goose…
Satan: I thought the dream of a diverse community was the goal of the Liberals/Democrats..
es_la_ley (why to you choose a handle that’s extra complicated to type?) So true, so true! Egos to satisfy. Love of self has no limits whatever. Why do you think we all spend time at the computer writing stuff like this? We LOVE to see our own words in “print”. Right?!? And nobody can interrupt us!
it was cut off,
that’s because laura wants you to pay money to hear the rest. Unless you listened to it on her live show, your out of luck.
It’s not cheap either, if you listen to her all the time it might be worth it unless you have deep pockets.
Josh
Lovisa opined:
“es_la_ley (why to you choose a handle that’s extra complicated to type?)”
I chose that handle because when I joined up here I was really fired up about the PWC issues. “Es la ley” is Spanish for “It’s the law”. I was waiting for someone to catch the nuance, but it never happened. At the time, I thought it fit perfectly. Still does, I think.
“Why do you think we all spend time at the computer writing stuff like this? We LOVE to see our own words in “print”. Right?!?”
Respectfully, No. I don’t buy that. Frankly, I don’t care to see my words in print. I want to see what others think! I support HSM in what it does, and I visit BVBL because I really like being here! The best darned blog in Virginia.
Best regards..
Es_La_Lay
A DIVERSE community is a DIVIDED community. A divided community is a community that is not peacful and homgenous. A divided community is a community that aligns along racial, ethnic, religious and gender lines, which is what Nancy Lyall advocates. A divided communuty remains in CIVIL unrest, and lack peace and harmony. A divided community is a community where everyone is not treated as THE SAME. Could it be that Israel and Lebonon have this problem, Sunni and Shiite, Muslim and Christian. This kind of “selective” divisive ethnic , racial, gender and religious rhetoric is so typical of the left-over generation of equal rights activist, only now they want the law to be “equal” only for their special privileged group that they align with. They selectively choose which laws they are going to hold each group accountable to. If it helps them its a just law, if it hurts their ethnic, racial, gender, or religious group desire for special privilege its an Unjust law. Laura has a right to be short with someone who is spouting seperatist and divisive ideology, and who doesn’t understand that only Congress and the Congressional branch of government can change it. That applies at the State and Local level as well. It’s like Claire Gastanga the other day linking us to a site that detailed a Presidential directive that Clinton released on immigrants (not “illegal” immigrants). Claire claimed that is was a law that required governments to lose funds if they did not provide interpreters for ethnic groups that request it. She too did not understand that only Congress can pass laws, not presidents, and there is no law that requires people to provide interpreters. The only law that requires anything of the sort is the 14th amendment (congressional law), that requires equal protection under the law. That means the LAW must be enforced as is, it must be enforced equally on ALL regardless of race, religion, ethnic group or gender and it must apply to everyone equally, i.e if you provide one interpreter in the room, you must provide one that represents every ethnic group in the nation. That would be great wouldn’t it? At a public meeting, every time someone says something in English, 450 interpreters must translate simultaneously to everyone in the room least we offend the lone NAVAHO, or (1/16 mixed) Cherokee, like myself in the room. And you DON’T know who is going to show up. If you claim you do you are making an ethnically biased decision. If you select only one ethnic group or racial GROUP for that special privilege you violate the LAW. Better to use one language that everyone understands, that OFFENDS no one. English is spoken around the world in almost every country, so why not HERE? Or is that a “law” that Nancy would say is broken too?
Michael, I left this under another thread:
redawn said on 7 Sep 2007 at 8:52 pm: If you can’t say anything, call us racist”- It seems fitting her too-
Michael,
It seems that you defined the term “politically correct”.
I for one just try and live by TRUTH. I wonder what happened to America, that was once, one nation under God? I was always turned OFF by politics because they always seem to have the HIDDEN agenda.
MY point as ILL explained it may be, is WHAT HAPPENED TO AMERICA, our morals, our God and our country? Right and wrong?
I just think dancing around the truth was the birth of the term: PC
My opinion of PC is just an excuse for EVERYTHING, anything and everything goes because you don’ want to step on anyone’s toes.
ES_LA_Lay
BTW I’m not debating at you. You’re a great person. I’m just using your comment on diversity as a point. It’s just the latest term (another is inclusion) used to claim “unfairness” by groups aligned along racial, ethnic, gender and religious lines to beat up on the majority fir not giving them special priviliges. None of these concepts are based on individual rights, skills, talent, or individual effort. They all imply a need for “generating and guaranteeing equal outcomes” which is against the law, according to Sandra Day O’Conner, or worse the terms are used to demand or guarantee special favoritism until a superiority position along a racial, gender, ethnic, or religious advocacy group is reached. You only have to look at the unconstitutionality of the “Small Business Act” put through by racial, ethnic, gender and religious GROUP lobbyists to see that. This “LAW” has not yet been constitutionally tested, but it will eventually be ruled unconstitutional.
redawn, I completely agree. Some people are wiser than others and are finally beginning to understand.
Laura is indeed annoying and has the female version of the arrogant John Kerry nasally, condescending voice.
But she is without a doubt - an American.
Hip, hip hurrah for Laura - an American!!!!! Sheesh-
“NAFTA requires that all roads in the United States, Mexico and Canada be opened to carriers from all three countries. Canadian trucking companies already have full access to U.S. roads, but Mexican trucks can travel only about 20 miles inside the country at certain border crossings.”
“”Now they’re trying to export all our driving jobs to Mexico,” Flores said. “That’s one less American job.”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-09-06-truckers-mexico_N.htm
Another slap in the face to American workers. I have also heard that these trucks will be able to come and go as they please. I bet there won’t be any alien or drug smuggling going on.
Lovisa - ma suge pula.
LAURA tells it like it is. She doesn’t mince words and she might hurt some people’s feelings, but she gets her point across. At least she knows what she is talking about unlike her guest, Ms. Lyall.
If Lyall and MSF would ever seperate illegal from legal immigrants the story would end. They don’t even want the criminal illegals out of America. They don’t want localities to enforce ANY immigration laws because they know our Federal government doesn’t have the man power to do it and the status quo stands. NOTHING gets done.
So lets keep pushing. I would love to see Stienbach and Lyall move to Mexico to be with all of their friends when they get deported.
Michael said on 7 Sep 2007 at 9:11 pm:
“redawn, I completely agree. Some people are wiser than others and are finally beginning to understand.”
Michael,
I have ALWAYS felt this way and I am not narrow minded or exclude other people and their beliefs. If anything, I try to put myself in the that person shoes and try to understand where they come from.
I KNOW that this is why this blog has caught my attention and gave me and others a forum to do so. I have even been shot down a bit for typing mistakes, etc.,(baby stuff) but I am not being anyone other than ME. I am just living the truth while still educating myself and hopefully , helping others.
Thanks to Greg, this blog is a wonderful outlet to keep abreast of what goes on in my area that I GREW UP IN as well as others from Cali, Texas, etc….I have seen these people from theses places that comment and are out there. This just allows us to bridge valuable information out there that was not available to me before. I love it but I will not LOOSE the sight of truth.
Once again Nancy lied. Not all illegals pay their fair share in taxes. If they are living in an overcrowded house, the house is only generating one tax bill. Split the tax bill two or may ways, and how is that fair, if every family in the house has children attending public schools? How is that fair in regard to police and fire services?
She got her backside handed to her by the radio host. Is it shocking?
Anonymous - does pa suge pula too? A family affair perhaps.
only in your family….
citizenof manassas - Fair share of taxes is a dream. A family with 7 children lives on my street (American as can be). They own a 4 bedroom house with 9 people. How much tax should they pay? Of course, they get a hefty deduction for each child. Is that fair that people without children have to pay for other people’s kids? - Then again, this family homeschools their children. Is it fair that they should pay school taxes? Maybe they should get a refund. Not everyone drives a car, yet we all pay taxes to maintain roads and transportation. Many do not support the war, but try to withhold your taxes from DOD. Joan Baez tried this in the 70s and didn’t get very far.
Irrevelant examples maybe, but proof that there is no such thing in fairness when it comes to taxes. Of course, we all know of super-riches who pay no taxes at all because they can afford super-clever tax attorneys.
Anonymous - I have no idea what you are saying, but I’m getting an inkling that it isn’t anything nice. Might be dirty even. Shame on you already!
I refuse to believe we don’t have the people power to secure our borders and to empower I.C.E. to do the job it is supposed to be doing. I don’t want to hear we don’t have the resources. We are spending 10 billion dollars a month in Iraq.
I believe we ARE demanding that homeland security begin at home. We have no freaking clue who is in this country and who isn’t. Does anyone else think this is a dangerous situation?
Dolph,
I CAN HEAR YOU! HELLO,HELLO…THERE IS SOMEBODY OUT THERE…
Lovisa,
You completely missed the point. I said if there are more then one family living in a house. There is nothing we can do about a large legal family living within the law, and within one house.
We send our son to private school, yet still pay taxes for public schools. So, yes it pisses me off even more to realize there are many illegals who do not pay their fair share.
redawn,
HELLOOOOO BACK!
COM,
I no longer have children in public school either. I see public education as an investment in literacy. Hopefully, this investment in literacy will reduce the number of people who are dependent on others for their sustenance. While this theory may not always work out as I would like, it beats the alternative which I know contributes to dependency.
dolph - education in an investment in literacy. …this investment will reduce the number of people who are dependent on others… This is exactly why we need to educate ALL CHILDREN. I don’t understand the idea of withholding education for children of illegal aliens. Most likely, they’ll stay here , and the less educated they are, the more dependent they’ll be. Makes sense, right? And I feel my tax money is being spent rather wisely, if it helps lift people.
Heck, how did it ge so late!
Another blow by Manassas against illegals:
By KIPP HANLEY
jhanley@potomacnews.com
Saturday, September 8, 2007
What do you think?
Starting this week, the city of Manassas upped its requirements to obtain a business license.
From Labor Day on, those contractors and subcontractors who want to do business in the city will need to provide one of 10 documents that establish both identity and residency
status in the United States, or two of 16 documents that establish both identity and residency status.
The requirements were taken from the I-9 form that employers use when hiring. That means in order to obtain a license, a contractor must provide two forms of identification such as a driver’s license and Social Security card or a U.S. passport, a permanent resident card or unexpired foreign passport (or one of the seven others on the list of 10).
In the past, the city only required that contractors or subcontractors come to the office to fill out an application, which included a line for a Social Security number. Those subcontractors who are located outside the city who do under $25,000 of work in a calendar year are exempt from having to obtain a business license and corporations have a different set of requirements, said John Grzejka, Manassas commissioner of the revenue.
Those subcontractors that are based in the city and do less than $25,000 of work are still required to get a business license, said Grzejka.
Manassas Park started the same verification practice last fall after receiving an opinion from Commonwealth Attorney General Robert F. McDowell stating that it was within a jurisdiction’s right to require these forms for a business license.
The opinion specifically states that “federal and state laws prohibit a commissioner of revenue from issuing a local business license to an applicant who is not legally present in the United States.” Under the federal Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, “an illegal alien cannot lawfully be employed in the United States.” The Immigration Act also established an extensive “employment verification system” which requires a person or entity to check for documentation like a Social Security card or U.S. passport.
The opinion was sought by Calvin C. Massie Jr., Campbell County commissioner of the revenue, who informed fellow commissioners of the news at an conference for Virginia commissioners of the revenue last summer.
Massie said he received a strong backlash against the opinion from some of the commissioners, citing everything from a lack of proper training for identifying possible fraudulent documents to adding too much to the current workload.
In reality, Manassas Park has had very little difficulty with the adoption of its new policy, said Debra Wood, the city’s commissioner of the revenue. While people have expressed a wide range of opinions to the city about the policy, it has not significantly affected the department’s workload, said Wood.
“We haven’t had a whole lot of people unable to comply and it hasn’t been a loss of money for us,” Wood said.
Massie said he would like to see jurisdictions be required to use these verification methods, and both Massie and Grzejka said they hope the state would be able to provide more extensive training on how to detect fraudulent paperwork.
Currently, Manassas’ hiring practices for city positions include using a pamphlet that illustrates examples of everything from driver’s licenses to alien registration receipt cards.
Both Grzejka and Massie said that isn’t enough.
“I don’t want to operate in ignorance,” said Massie. “You want to know that you made a good faith effort.”
Late last year, Massie pursued the issue all the way to the General Assembly. The House of Delegates ultimately passed House Bill 3130, prohibiting the issuance of a business license to any
individual who cannot provide legal documents proving such individual is legally eligible to be employed or to work in the United States. However, after successfully going through the House, the bill was left in the Senate finance committee in February of this year.
Grzejka said the recent escalation of outrage over illegal immigration in the community was one reason for the city to adopt this policy. Also, Grzejka said he didn’t initially act on the decision last summer because he wanted to avoid any potential legal entanglements on top of the ongoing Department of Justice investigation into the city’s rescinded resolution on the definition of families.
The definition limited the term “family” to include immediate family, grandparents, grandchildren and one non-related person.
However, many people felt that this ordinance, passed in 2005, was targeting those in the Hispanic community, and it was quickly thrown off the books.
I cannot find nancy lyall as a member of the virginia bar. I listened to the whole interview. If she is an attorney, she’s a very poor one and severely needs to go back to law school. In most law schools constitutional law and contract law are first-year requirements, things most paralegals also know.
Collection agencies sometimes call their collectors “legal coordinators” as well but they are far from attorneys. Personally, I think she’s just some busy-body who has a place in her heart for illegals. but I’ve been wrong before.
This was reported on WMAL @ midnight, but no mention of it so far this morning (7 am news) http://www.secureborders.com/
“Fairfax, VIRGINIA: 16 Illegal Aliens Discovered In Van In Annandale (Sanctuary County)
nbc4.com
ANNANDALE, Virginia — Police officers uncovered an alleged human smuggling case in the Annandale area Thursday.
Around 11:30 p.m., officers stopped to investigate a suspicious van parked in the 5100 block of Ravensworth Road. They said they discovered 16 people inside the van.
Further investigation revealed that 14 of the passengers, including five children, were illegal aliens being transported by two men.
“Because of their suspicions, (the officers) determined there were 16 people in van, two people arrested on weapons charges,” Officer Bud Walker of the Fairfax County police said.
The two men, Nalciso Rodriguez, 38, of Cypres, Tenn., and Damainan Vasquez, 41, of Houston, were each charged with one count of concealed weapon violations and transported to the Fairfax County Adult Detention Center.
The case and the 14 illegal aliens were turned over to federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents.
“In the investigation, we determined they were in this country illegally, and we turned them over to ICE,” Walker said. “We normally don’t inquire into people’s immigration status, but it was necessary in this case.”"
Now that 100 Mexican trucking companies have begun rolling throughout the US (thanks to Jorge Bush) and the fact that the trucks will not be inspected if there is a long line at the border, we can expect much, much more of this nonsense. Be careful driving out there.
Josh, I think N Lyall is a leftover hippie that just needed a cause du jour.
Check this out! Also from today’s WaTi and reported on www.secureborders.com : “Legal aid group subpoenaed on suspected service to illegals (California Rural Legal Assistance Corp.)”
“Lovisa said on 8 Sep 2007 at 1:41 am:
dolph - education in an investment in literacy. …this investment will reduce the number of people who are dependent on others… This is exactly why we need to educate ALL CHILDREN. I don’t understand the idea of withholding education for children of illegal aliens. Most likely, they’ll stay here , and the less educated they are, the more dependent they’ll be.”
1. Education is an investment for LEGAL citizens and LEGAL taxpayers.
2. Reduce the dependence? What…at the expense of our children? The bi-lingual classes are making our education system go into a decline at our expense!
3. Most likely they will stay here? NOT if we get our act together they won’t!
Legal2,
I totally agree!!! She needs to get with the program and realize the 60’s are over. I think she’s just upset about not having the black panthers around or something and had to look for an activist group to represent
I went to the lakeridge elementary school last year to check out their kindergarden program. I was so pissed off when I saw illegals in the class that didnt speak a lick of english, the ratio’s are not that great either. I want my kids to learn, not compete with an illegal who deserves no education except back in their own country.
for the person who said that everyone deserves education: I totally agree with you! except they should be getting this education in their own country. Why is it the responsibility of the U.S. to pick up the damn bill?
as a side note, I had the week off and took a little cruise around potomac mills mall and other places in the woodbridge area. I saw plenty of hispanic children running around and riding bikes, etc..I saw plenty of them floating around potomac mills mall and just about everywhere else. So tell me, are they really that concerned about getting an education? I dont know if they were illegal or flat out just had crappy parenting..but the fact remains, they were not in school.
Josh, you had absolutely no way of determining if those kindergarten students were legal or illegal. I would be willing to bet that at least half of them were American citizens, if they were kindergarten age.
Lovisa,
Illegal children, should not be educated at the expense of others. Of course you also completely ignored my point. Oh well, once again it just shows how weak your defense is of illegals.
Dolph,
Our education system is failing(no pun intended) our children in part because of so many illegal kids who should not be here in the first place. Poll results show American kids sorely lack knowledge in World events, American history, and geography. That is not exactly a glowing endorsement of an investment for the future.
Patriot,
I don’t know of any bi-lingual classes in our area. What exactly are you considering a bi-lingual class? The goal of ESL classes is to learn English. How can you learn English if your instruction is in another language?
An illiterate sub-strata of society will only cause huge problems later on down the road. Frankly, I haven’t seen the wave of immigration making a hasty retreat, so I have to assume that those here, are here to stay. I certainly don’t want any more illiterates on the welfare rolls, do you?
I suggest you step back and look at the big picture: how things are rather than how you would like them to be. We have to learn from history and look to the future and prepare as best we can. Those who lack basic literacy and numeracy skills will be a burden to society for the rest of their lives.
COM,
I sure wouldn’t want my basic knowledge assessed by a poll.
I will never say that education hasn’t been severely impacted by immigration, especially in our area. Much of this impact has been compounded by the mandates of NCLB, rather than leaving education to the state and localities, where these decisions belong.
However, NCLB is the law. Plyler vs. Doe is the law. We must deal the hand we have been dealt and work through legislation to change the law.
I don’t think that we can say the educational system is failing our children. All education is an investment in the future. An illiterate society is a non-productive society.
Dolph, I have looked at the “big picture”. That is why I stand firmly by ALL of my comments! When children (who cannot adequately speak English) are placed in a classroom of those who can….it SLOWS the progress of the entire class (which explains why our schools are now in decline). The supporters claim…it helps kids learn diversity. That is pure nonsense! Diversity in our nation has been around since its beginning! That is just an excuse.
“I don’t think that we can say the educational system is failing our children”
You ARE CLEARLY WRONG! Look at the evidence in the reports that are all around.
It is our children who will be disadvantaged in the future. The ESOL students we are educating at tremendous taxpayer expense come out speaking flawless, unaccented English (at lest the ones who start in early elementary school.)
In a few years my son and my daughter be going out on job interviews. Will they get hired or will the job go to someone who is bilingual??
We are putting our own children at a terrible disadvantage. I resent spending so my taxpayer money to teach illegal immigrants at the expense of our own children. Elementary schools that could never afford a science lab and a science teacher to run it suddenly have found the money to pay for 10 or 12 ESOL staff members in a single school.
What is the answer? I wonder if we shouldn’t demand that the schools start teaching Spanish to the elementary students who speak English. I don’t want this, but I don’t want our children to be the ones that are disadvantaged.
No. No. No. We shouldn’t have to pay for Spanish anything. This is America. We speak English. The money that is currently spent on Spanish things (teachers, etc.) should be re-distributed to other programs like math, science and higher pay for our existing teachers! Then our teachers and children will have the tools they need to succeed.
Our children should be able to choose a language that they would like to learn! They should not be forced in learning a language purely because our schools are being overrun by illegals that happen to primarily speak Spanish.
Let’s keep this simple. How will having millions of illiterate people in our country be of any value? I hear all sorts of howling and carrying on about hispanics getting welfare benefits. If we do as many of you are suggesting, and not educate the immigrant children who are in this country, what do we gain in a generation?
Some of you may be relying on things being ‘fixed.’ I am afraid I am just not that optimistic. The horse has been out of the barn for some time now. I will always bet on horses that are literate vs ones that are not.
Patriot,
I do agree with you that children should be able to chose the foreign language they want to learn, rather than having one shoved down their throats.
dolph,
you are absolutely correct! i did have no way and that statement was indeed a broad generalization. However I didnt hear a lick of english out of those students either and I was there for a bit of time. I would rather my children get their current english reinforced their first 6 months of kindergarden rather than wait for the others who never spoke english to catch up…
The school system is doing the best they can with what they have, which is not much. I dont blame them at all. I just wish my children could have the awesome public education that I did growing up.
Now that I’m going to pay for private school, there is not an issue however that 9k I’m shelling out could have been put to good use around the house.
Josh
I’ve noticed that over the past 10 years teaching, more of my K students arrive at school with english skills. This year I have 19 students, 9 of whom are ESOL. All but one of my ESOL students speak quite fluent English, and I was able to communicate in English with every parent. Schools do not have a choice as to how many ESOL teachers they have. There is a ratio of ESOL teachers to students that is required by the govt. Also a student may receive an ESOL designation because more than one language is spoken in the home. Just because a student is designated as ESOL does NOT mean that they don’t speak english, and once given an ESOL designation, the student retains it for at least four years. A Level A ESol designation can cover a non-English speaker as well as one who can speak quite well but has some errors. A student who gets a Level A designation in Kindergarten will be in third or fourth grade before they reach M1 (monitor for one year), or drop the designation. Not all students designated as ESOL receive special services, only those that are level A or a low B. So most of the services are geared to the 1-2 grade level. No ESOL services are given to K students, but by law they must be tested 2x per year to monitor their english lang growth. However, whether or not a student receives services they are stilled labeled as ESOL. If one really wants to know how many students in a particular school do not have strong English skills, don’t ask how many ESOL students the school has, ask how many ESOL Level A’s the school has.
Lovisa said:
“…education in an investment in literacy. …this investment will reduce the number of people who are dependent on others… This is exactly why we need to educate ALL CHILDREN. I don’t understand the idea of withholding education for children of illegal aliens. Most likely, they’ll stay here…”
No, Lovisa, I think that most likely they won’t be staying here much longer…when the jobs dry up and social services are cut off, they’ll decide that “home” wasn’t so bad afterall. …and when they DO go home, do you suppose that the “…we need to educate ALL CHILDREN,” will apply to those tax paying citizens living in third-world countries from which they came, as well?
Freedom,
Part of the problem in third world countries is the lack of education of the masses. If your scenario is correct, and I wouldn’t place any bets on that either way, those children who received some education in the United States will hopefully help make the necessary changes in their countries of origin and our country will not be the great magnet that it currently is.
If your scenario doesn’t come to pass, then we will not be dumping literally millions of illiterates into the system 10 years from now if we invest in education.
Crack down on businesses, cut the benefits, and they will go home. Simple as that. The reason they are still around is due to the fact that nothing has been done yet…but hopefully that will change very soon!
Laura is a great person and knows her stuff. sHE PROBABLY COULD MAKE MINCEMEAT out of Lyall.
Lyall is getting paid bucks from someone???Some is her retirement from School.But thats not enough to keep her going in her lifestyle.
She was multicalture and that’s where our schools went wrong.
Another lady is Lydia Gonzales,she spoke at the last BOS meeting. But she has been off track for quite a few years.She also was a teacer at Woodbrige High.
Makes me wonder what kind of education our children are getting with these types?
None of them know what they are talking about and none of them have ever been involved in the community in a positive manner.
It’s people like this that spread the wrong information, so that legal immigrants feel they have something to worry about,as Lyall,Gonzales and a few others feed out the wrong info.
Go Greg and HSM
Patriot,
If only life were that simple. I sure am not willing to bet on it. Too much is at stake.
Dolph,
How else can we judge the education system? NCLB shows the schools are failing, polls show the schools are failing, test scores show the schools are failing. Exactly how do you want to judge the schools? Exactly how would you like to know how well the school systems are doing? Exactly, how much money do you want to throw at schools?
You keep harping on about investment. Of course education is an investment. That is not the question or the point, the point is how well are the children being educated? Throwing money is never the solution.
Laws can be changed, you act as if there is no possible way to change the current situation, so lets just keep throwing more and more money at it.
How do you know the Supreme Court would not change the opinion that illegals have to be educated in the public school system?
And, sense you did specifically mention hispanic students, do you know their drop out rate? Do you know the teen birth rate of hispanics?
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/10/11/census.dropouts.ap/index.html
Of course the liberal NEA wants to just dump more money in attempting to change the numbers.
http://www.nea.org/newsreleases/2003/nr030612.html
Birth rate article linked here.
http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/PUBLICATIONS/factsheet/fsprechd.htm
So, as you can see many of these children, illegal or having parents who are illegal will be gone from the education system by the time they reach high school. All the money spent on intervention, all day Government care, etc, etc, will be a waste for the most part.
Dolph, those are the solutions. Once they start being enacted, results should be tangible. It is hard to see any changes until the activities actually start and news hits the streets.
Patriot,
You left out the part where the border is secure. Until this is done, there will be very little change, in my opinion.
I am not saying that the 2 solutions you mentioned aren’t starting points, but it is going to take a lot more than that to fix something that has been broken for a long time.
Until the border is secure, I am not very optimistic.
COM,
Actually, education being an investment in literacy IS the point because I declared it the point back about 40 posts ago. My own kids are no longer in public school and I said something to the effect that I don’t mind my tax dollars going into education because I consider it an investment in literacy. Please do not presume to tell me what my point is. If it is irrelevant to you, then simply do not respond.
Since I haven’t gotten through being polite, let me just go for broke. I want as many people educated and self-reliant as possible because I don’t want to have to support their sorry asses if they have no education.
Unlike you, I just don’t trust my govenment to get us out of the immigration mess we are in. I sure am not going to bank on it happening. Therefore, I want as many young people educated as possible for the above stated reasons. I have seen enough of the welfare state to last me a long long time.
I also don’t want to hear how the schools are failing. You probably haven’t seen the actual scores, just the AYP results. Don’t worry about those. Worry about how the the school is doing as a whole. You can find any of the results you want on the VDOE website.
dolph - you are a voice in the wilderness. You make so much sense, that it’ll never be accepted by most of the contributors to this forum!!!
The American people finally knocked enough political heads together to stop the Kennedy/McCain/President supported “comprehensive immigration reform bill,” and it can happen again.
It is sad that it took so long and such “head knocking.” However, I believe that the momentum has finally started to turn the tide. American citizens (including you) can either “get on the train” and push to make things better for this country, or you can be a hand-wringing naysayer who is willing to let others do the dirty work. Which will it be for you?
The border must be secured and other measures must be taken to encourage the illegal aliens to retreat to their homeland, that is for sure. However, with pressure from the individual American voter, activist groups, local government, and state governments, the federal government MUST wake up and comply with what the public wants. We can land man on the moon, likewise, this problem can be fixed.
I can not believe that the general public would prefer to sit on their hands and watch our country fall to a silent invasion from the south.
Did anyone read my post??? Do you all outside the educ system really understand how the ESOL status thing works? Stop talking about failing education systems…look at the test scores by grade, and govt sub level. The hispanic students have passed the black students for the past two years. This year the white students have decreased in their test scores…and we can’t blame language.
ateacher,
where do you get your stats? Got a link you can post to back up your argument? I have relatives pretty high in the school system in Florida and they would disagree with you. Are you only talking about PWC or the entire country. If you have the stats for PWC it would be interesting to see them, put your money where your mouth is.
ateacher,
I read them and thought your remarks stood on their own.
Josh,
Ateacher teaches in the City of Manassas. All teachers are provided feed back for their school. The information is also available at the VDOE website.
The stats for PWCS are posted on the same website. Ateacher’s money is where her mouth is. She goes in every day and teaches the kids. That’s good enough for me!
For the record, the higher in the educational food chain a person is, (the more expensive the suit) the less likely they are to have a realistic view of what is really going on. They need to get down in the trenches with ateacher. Unless one is down there, they are just number crunchers.
Josh,
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/reportcard/
Plug in the school or division you want to check out. It is all there.
Dolph,
How will the kids receive an education if they are not in the system? You assume every kid will graduate, I just provided stats that show a high number of hispanic kids will drop out. How are they going to be literate if they do not attend school? You really need to wake up, and realize while you may have faith in the school systems, reality says we have a huge problem with many of them.
Funny how you expect and want Government to be in every aspect of education, but you don’t trust or expect them to fix the immigration issue. Sort of puzzling to me how you come to those points of views.
All the Government needs to do to fix the illegal immigration issue is enforce current laws. New laws are really not needed on the Federal level.
There is plenty of work to be done on the education issue, and an endless number of laws can be passed that will not help at all because you can’t force someone to learn if they are not a part of the system.
Ateacher,
Of course scores are done, look how much more money is spent on white students compared to a ESOL student. If the same amount of money and attention was paid to white students I would expect their scores would rise too.
COM,
What ARE you smoking over there in Manassas?
I actually don’t know what you are talking about or where that diatribe even comes from.
Do not ever presume you know what I am thinking unless I state it. I certainly do not expect every student to graduate.
I also do not want every aspect of governement in education. Since I have been on this board I have lambasted NCLB.
For the record, you cannot force anyone learn, whether they are in the system or not (whatever that means).
Everyone knows you don’t like the public school system. That is your right. However, don’t always come around and try to pick a fight with those of us who support public education.
Dolph,
You still did not answer my questions. You said you trust Government to do a good job on education, but not on immigration enforcement. No answer to that.
You said education is an investment in the future. I pointed out that many of the very students who are getting the most attention and money spent on them will not be in the system in a few years. How does that make education an investment for the future? I thought all of those intervention programs worked? I guess not.
The system of course is the public school system.
I am simply pointing out the public school system has plenty of problems and putting blind faith in it is silly.
COM,
And you did not answer mine.
I never said I trust the government to do a good job on education. End of statement.
Yes I did say education is an investment in the future. Historically it has been a foundation of this country. It is a general statement that espouses literacy. End of statement.
You aren’t playing well with others when you misquote them.
Dolph,
Here is a part of one of your posts.
Since I haven’t gotten through being polite, let me just go for broke. I want as many people educated and self-reliant as possible because I don’t want to have to support their sorry asses if they have no education.
Unlike you, I just don’t trust my government to get us out of the immigration mess we are in. I sure am not going to bank on it happening. Therefore, I want as many young people educated as possible for the above stated reasons. I have seen enough of the welfare state to last me a long long time.
Talk about putting words in peoples mouths. I never said I trusted the Government to do their job on immigration. I would like them to do it.
By saying you want as many folks to be educated as possible is in fact an endorsement of the public education system which the Government runs because unless you want every kid to go to private school, the public school system is going to have to have some of these kids.
So, that is why I said you trust the Government to do a good job on education.
COM,
Education in general. I don’t care how they get it. Public school, private school, home school, charter school, online school.
I happen to support the concept of public schools. I don’t mandate that everyone go to them to get an education. Any of the above are fine with me for someone else’s kid.
If the government doesn’t enforce immigration laws, who else is to do it? Vigilantes? Immigration laws fall under the jurisdiction of the federal government. I made that quantum leap that since you wanted the laws enforced, you were calling on the feds to do it. I don’t trust that they are going to do it. They have certainly ignored many of them so far.
Try taking what I say at face value rather than trying to read some subversive hidden agenda in to my words. I am not that complicated or motivated to have a hidden agenda.
Dolph,
OK, now you are explaining yourself better.
Yes, of course I want the Feds to enforce their own laws. Yes, I am pissed they have not done so, but hope that one day they will. However, as I think I posted before, I will not hold my breath.
I’m a teacher in PWC and there are so few white students in my school that whites are not counted as a subgroup for NCLB (No Child Left Behind.) I agree that if the white students were given all the extra services that are given to ESOL students, the white students scores would soar.
CJC,
Would white students even be counted as a minority if there were enough?
I didn’t think NCLB acknowledged whites as a minority, even if they are a minority in the building, for AYP purposes.
CJC,
The NCLB congressional hearings are this week. No one even seems to care. NCLB is the worst piece of educational legislation that has been passed in my lifetime.
You might be interested in this link:
http://www.educatorroundtable.org/
Surprisingly the COMPOST only seems to want minor changes to the program.
NCLB is a noble effort, but it is run by a biased DOE director, who is determined to focus the nation’s educational resources only on the low end of the IQ ladder, at the expense of the high end of the IQ ladder. It is interesting to me that this focus does less for the economic benefit of the nation’s ability to compete with the PHDs of other countries, which is why the US is falling behind in technical competency. The factors influencing this are the President’s bias against science and scientific research funding, and the DOEs bias in the Ethnic Group focus only on minority status students. I believe that leaving any child behind in educational “opportunity” is wrong. All students regardless of race, ethnic group, religion or gender deserve the same “opportunities”, but the Program NCLB attempts to adjust the educational “results” to guarantee “equal outcomes” I do not have this same opinion that “illegal” students deserve this funding, at the expense of “legal” students and that is where I draw the line. “illegal” student education is the responsibility of the nation the “illegals” are citizen’s of, not us. “Equal outcomes” or racial balancing of test scores and grades, is not possible as it depends significantly on the talent and DNA of each “Individual”, not which GROUP they belong to. NCLB is a debbate best dertermined as what “individuals” deserve or not deserve, each on their own skill and merit. Should we focus the majority of our educational resources on the students with IQs scoring 70 or focus most of our resources on the students with IQs scoring 140 regardless of race, ethnic group, religion or gender? Which is best for the nation? That lower end focus is my only objection about NCLB, the level of what is determined “behind” is arbitrary in its threshold, educational score and assessment of “good enough”
The goal of NCLB seems to be for there to be no gaps between the subgroups. So incredible effort has to be made to get the Limited English Proficiency students up to the level of regular students. Yes, white students are a subgroup (if there is a sufficient number to statistically count as a subgroup.) This is done so we can wring our hands over the gap in test scores. In this way we can prove that more help needs to be given to the ESOL program to make things equal.
“
CJC,
The ultimate goal of NCLB is that all students pass by 2014. Yea Right! I hate unattainable goals.
It sounds like you teach in elementary school. The special ed, minorities and economically disadvantaged will bite you just as badly, especially if they are double hits. I was unaware that white kids could ever count as a minority.
NCLB should not be reauthorized. If the American public knew what a horrible piece of legislation it is, and how much it impacts what goes on in their child’s school, they would be up in arms.
Dolph,
For someone who writes so much about the education system, I find it hard to believe you are unaware of the state of the DC public school system, as you said in another thread. You said you don’t want to make assumptions so what is in the papers may not necessarily be a true snap shot of what is going on with the DC school system.
Yet, you seem to know what grades some folks teach and seem to know a lot about schools. You defend the NEA to a fault. You won’t accept the fact most teachers are liberal.
Mmm, me thinks you are a former teacher, which would obviously explain your views.
Rather than focus on the “gaps” in test score between the very smart students and the very illiterate students and magically increase the abilities of the lower end by increasing their “knowledge” and increase their scores by decreasing the difficulty of the test, and then ignore the abilities of the really bright students, by giving them less attention and “knowledge” do not at all seem just to me. This NCLB philosophy is not even a good way to measure the success of teachers to teach knowledge or improve ALL students IQs regardless of race, religion, gender or ethnic group.
There is a huge difference in ability “IQ” and knowledge “what you were taught with increased hours of emphasis on a subject”. NCLB should focus less on trying to make kids with little ability appear smarter than the kids with ability, by standardizing scores just focused on the low end, rather than adopting a program where the real measure of a school’s success at teaching should be to measure each childs IQ as a baseline of “individuals” not a baseline of sub-group, ethnic, racial, gender or religious group IQs, and then see how much you can improve the IQ AND knowledge level of each child “individually” at the end of each year. Any teacher who can’t do that for the majority of the class, should be fired, and a better one who can improve this be hired. Maybe the real problem is the IQs of the teachers and the politicians are going down too, due to natural selection looking out only for the very least capable (instead of the most capable) of a population, and realizing that by law and special interest privilige focus, the least intelligent subgroup element will also be the most likely to produce the most babies over the next 50-100 years. IMHO choose your partner wisely if you want our society to become more capable rather than less capable. I guess the groups rights advocates (they are no longer equal rights advocates by the way) havn’t yet figured out a way to insist you can’t discrimminate based on IQ, but I’m sure group rights advocates are headed that way if the current trends continue. Soon only the people of the lowest IQs and talent will be insisting everyone give them special priviliges at the expense of everyone else’s education. If we don’t get this equal protection under the law thing right soon, so that everyone is helped EQUALLY, not just help special racial, gender, religious and ethnic groups, we will never move forward as a Nation.
From the perspective of an IQ of “Einstein” everyone is “developmentally challenged”. The real issue is to honestly look what the upper 1% of the population has done for the rest of us, compared to the lower 1% of the population. Where do you want to put your money? Can you answer that honestly as we sink lower and lower into the realm of a deteriorating education and intellect population rather than a constantly improving one? You have only to look at the educational scores and number of Phds of other nations to honestly know where our liberal political concepts of helping special advocacy groups only is taking us. I give us 20 years of continued decline and many other countries will soon be kicking out butts intellectually and mopping the floors with our ignorance, as they take care of only their ethnic groups financial , intellectual, and political power over us.
I just want to say that at my school in Manassas City we have decided to delve into the parallel block system. That means that every K student has been preasessed as to their cognitive level PRIOR to entering K. There are 12 levels and 4 teachers. I have been assigned levels 12, 8, and 4. Each student in each group is at the SAME level as their group members. I begin instruction AT their level and move them on up. I have 45 minutes with each group for math and lang arts instruction…alone..no other students requiring my attention. 45 minutes with 6 to 8 students…ALONE for lang arts. 45 minutes with 9 to 11 students for math instruction. I’m in heaven. Money…I spend about 1000.00 of my own each year, but do so willingly, and it’s a write off. Oh I also DO NOT belong to a union, nor do I want to.
Michael,
You don’t change IQ with education. You can change achievement, willingness to learn, etc, but you cannot change one’s native ability. There are certainly arguments that improved nutrition in early childhood can increase abillity. But that kind of change isn’t done in the classroom.
Dolph,
With regard to improved nutrition…. I thought the point of free breakfasts, lunches etc was to improve the nutrition of students? If that is not the case, why have those programs? In some cases those programs run year round.
I guess the supporters of those liberal social programs should adjust their defense of those programs, since if they are not to improve a childs nutrition.
Sorry I hit the submit button too fast..
…. Since if they are not to improve a child’s nutrition.
aTeacher,
What a wonderful system! My heartfelt support to you and other teachers using this system. Good luck on teaching those kids improved knowledge appropriate to their ability and see if you can change any of those “IQ’s” while you are at it.