Residential Market Update
By Greg L | 10 September 2007 | Local Economy, Prince William County | 83 Comments
The DC Examiner is reporting that residential real estate sales are down 35% in July 2007 as compared to July 2006, keeping Prince William at the very bottom of the Northern Virginia real estate market as the sub-prime mortgage debacle plays itself out. More than twice as many residential listings are being withdrawn than closed, which seems to indicate that sellers still haven’t come to the realization that the prices they think they can ask for just aren’t what the market is willing to pay. Sellers are still thinking in terms of the inflated prices that housing commanded during the past several years, listing their properties for far more than buyers will pay, and watching these properties sit without offers for months on end.
The few houses that are selling are going for $364,000 on average, while the average asking price of properties being withdrawn from the market is $421,000. At this point, sellers seem more willing to continue paying the carrying costs of their properties rather than discount their listing prices by another $60,000. Either that’s going to work, and the market will recover within the 20 months making this a relatively sane choice as long as those costs can be borne, or there’s soon going to be some realistic pricing activity which will bring prices in line with what buyers are willing to pay. Regardless of what happens, this might be the signal that the real estate market might start moving fairly soon, albeit with housing prices significantly discounted from their current levels. Many sellers just can’t afford these carrying costs for much longer, and holding out hope for a quick recovery is becoming less of a viable option for most.
Meanwhile the foreclosures are continuing at a rapid pace which does add a fairly significant supply of deeply discounted properties to the market. Prince William continues to be the area where most of the foreclosures are happening in both raw numbers and as a percentage of the number of housing units. As soon as the bulk of these foreclosures move through the process, one of the big components of downward pricing pressure will be removed. That doesn’t at all look like it’s happening at this point.
Since the conditions don’t seem to exist yet which will halt the decline in prices, local municipalities should expect to see some real difficulties in next year’s budgets as residential assessments may fall about another 10% in 2008. Some municipalities, such as Manassas City and Prince William County seem to be on track to absorb this. Manassas Park, on the other hand, is another story. They just don’t have the reserves to cushion another blow, and they’ve already tried the dubious tactic of holding assessments stable while market prices have been steadily and precipitously dropping. Doing this two years in a row, with municipal elections coming up in November of 2008, would be calamitous.
On the positive side, improving market conditions in Fairfax County could push buyers looking for reasonably affordable housing prices to jump into the Prince William market, where housing is increasingly cheaper. Once this trend starts to develop, investors are going to recognize some very attractive opportunities to cater to this demographic of potential buyers. The communities that do the best at resolving any quality of life issues that may exist are going to benefit from this first.
The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.
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There is a reason why people aren’t able to sell! Who would want to buy in an area known for bunk houses, trash everywhere, etc.
This appears to be the one area where there is some truth to the urban legend that illegal aliens keep consumer prices down.
Illegal aliens and sub prime loans - what a combination. If we can get zoning laws to crack down on overcrowded flop houses and Property Code Enforcement to enforce the laws our community will improve. I would ask real estate agents to take resposbility for their actions. What you do can affect the whole community. Please don’t look after your own interests only but look after the interest of others. Thank you! Your efforts will pay off in the long run and you will be able to live with your conscious.
This is something the whole community has to stay on top of, i moved to PWC 2 years ago, my house is now worth about 120k less according to the price my neighbor is asking for his house. Besides cleaning up the boarding houses we have to be on the look out for investors, buying houses and renting them out as overcrowded slums. Some advice is to know which houses are rented on your street. There are much tighter rules on occupancy for rentals then for owner occupied.
Anyone know any local investors that would like to team up to buy, rehab and rent to single families while this thing runs its course?
Jones and the MP City Council read what I say:
I WILL NOT PAY A REAL ESTATE TAX BILL FOR THE SAME LUDICROUS AMOUNT IN JANUARY/FEBRUARY THAT YOU SENT ME IN JULY. THE NEXT ONE GETS DENIED IF IT ISN’T SUBSTANTIALLY LESS, AND THE REAL ESTATE TAX LAWYERS GET INVOLVED IF IT COMES TO THAT. I WILL NO LONGER PAY 30% MORE THAN WHAT MY HOUSE IS WORTH TO SUBSIDIZE YOUR CATERING OF THE ILLEGAL ALIEN COMMUNITY. I WOULD RATHER PAY THE LAWYERS THAN CONTINUE SUPPORTING THIS SANCTUARY CITY.
Thank you and have a nice day catering to your illegals while your citizens languish. That is all.
People will not want to move into an area so deeply contentious as PWC. This will cause housing prices to FALL and will necessitate an INCREASE in real estate taxes. People should really contemplate long-term consequences for their actions before starting these kinds of endeavors. This whole situation lacked foresight on the part of the County Board of Supervisors and for that reason I will be casting a vote against them.
The Patriot and Dan:
Don’t scapegoat the individual illegal aliens for these types of economic and social symptoms. Doing so is reminiscent of a certain element in Germany in the 1930’s. It’s our elected federal leaders who allowed la Problema to develop and fester, not these poor folks trying to eke out a life by taking advantage of those politicians’ indifference by moving to el Norte.
Compassionate,
These problems existed long long before the Board took action. They are reacting to the problems that have landed on their lap. I wish they had done something sooner but they are doing the right things now. We will have to wait until these measures are implemented and be patient to see results. Our community will be better because of the resolution.
There is no compassion in seeing our community being held hostage by illegal aliens. Long time seniors who have lived in this community since day one and have paid taxes for years and years are now afraid to even step out their door. How come you don’t have compassion for them? Or are senior citizens just a bother to you? Is it easy for you to ignore them?
Is your name Sharon Pandak?
Advocator, I am not “scapegoating” anyone. I am calling it like I see it. An illegal alien knows they are illegal! They have a choice of coming here the right and wrong way. Illegal aliens care nothing about their impact on others. They are just as responsible as the politicians and businesses that draw them here.
Compassionate Conservative,
Where do you live? Probably not in the City of Manassas or Manassas Park. I suspect the publicity PWC is getting is not helping the housing market but for not because the county is contentious. People are not moving here because they are seeing first hand what illegals can and will do to a county. The Patriot summed it up in comment one “Who would want to buy in an area known for bunk houses, trash everywhere, etc.”
As for your real estate tax comment you are right once again but for the wrong reason. Taxes will have to go up in order to provide services to those living 2-3 families to one home.
I would like for all the high and mighty compassionate illegal sympathizers to come and live in my community for six months. I would be willing to bet that after you shop in the local grocery store, send your kids to the local public school and make a visit to PW Hospital your tune would change.
This is not the fault of the PWCBOS, Manassas and the Park. I predicted this would happen 3 years ago. I have been settling real estate closings for 25+ years. The blame lies in the unscrupulous realtors (mostly Latino and I cannot mention any names), mortgage brokers who would charge $10K as their own fee and ask the employers to rig salary figures, and lenders who fixed qualification documents and who came up with the creative financing to allow 2 individuals who both flip burgers at McDonalds to buy a $500K home, and the DMV for giving out Driver Licenses to whomever and the forgers who came up with the other documents. Breaking the law and circumventing the system is the same in any language and in any country.
ddpdrinker,
Thanks for setting the record straight. It is good to hear someone finally come out and do a ‘tell all’ on how so much of this has happened.
I have heard it, read it, thought it, but never seen it put so succinctly by someone who is in your position to KNOW first hand.
Now, what to do about it. I think DMV has been straightened out, but the rest you mentioned is still out there….destroying our neighborhoods.
The Patriot:
It’s easy to lay blame for la Problema at the feet of the individual illegal aliens for failing to observe the nuances of our immigration laws. Those nuances are difficult for some of us with over 20 years of schooling, working on the day shift, to understand. All the illegals know is that if they take minimal risk, they can live a decent life; fail to take advantage of the risk, they and their families may starve. That’s not much of a choice. The fault lies with our elected representatives and appointed officials who allowed the risk to become so minimal. Hold their feet to the fire, and at the same time support local efforts at making our County (and your neighborhood), inhospitable to the average illegal alien. But don’t damn the poor individual who takes advantage of a situation. That position only clouds the issue, and gives fuel to our adversaries who would label you racist, etc. This issue is about enforcing the law. Don’t let it get personal except with those who avoid their responsibility to enforce the law and cause it to be enforced. Those folks wear suits and usually ride in the back seats of black limousines. They’re not the ones hanging out at the 7-11 on Coverstone.
Patty:
You need to read some of Ayn Rand’s stuff. I recommend “Atlas Shrugged.” Her theme is that people act in their own selfish interest. It’s up to our law makers and enforcers to make it against a lenders’ interest to make loans to illegals. Those are the folks who have failed us. Don’t let them forget it.
DDP drinker is right and that is exactly why many, if not most of the foreclosures, are hispanic surnames. These agents took advantage of their own people in order to profit. In many cases, their clients were completely and totally dependent upon them to navigate the closing process as well as translate the details for them into Spanish.
I am sure some hispanic agents are decent and dedicated agents, but many of the ones I have dealt with are not only taking advantage of their clients, but also brag about it.
They typically work in tag teams with the agent’s sister, brother or husband serving as the mortgage broker. I’ve had them brag about suckering someone into a high interest rent or making fun of their own people for not knowing about the early payout fees. One Fairfax realty company was notorious for hundreds of agents running these kinds of deals in PWC. As soon as one of their agents called on a listing, we could predict exactly what was going to happen and that the broker would not only be related, but also the qualifying loan documents would use 3-4 different names before they got the right combination to qualify. Frankly, it was so sickening.
In my 25 years of real estate before the hispanic influx, I don’t think I worked with more than 2 agents who were related to the mortgage broker or lender. With the hispanic agents, I have rarely found ONE that wasn’t related to the broker. Within a year or 18 months of the homeowner moving into their new home, their agent and the related mortgage broker would be repeatedly calling the encouraging their clients to sell and move up. “Don’t worry about qualifying, we’ll take care of that.” “Don’t worry about paying the mortgage, we’ll find you some boarders to help out with rent and an ARM means your payment will be low. It won’t matter because you’ll be out of the house in 1 year”
It was my impression talking with hispanic agents that their marketing plan was completely different from the normal real estate world. The idea of someone buying a home was NOT to live in that home and an investment, but as an investment ONLY that they just happened to sleep in at night for a few months. They encouraged their clients to repeatedly sell and move up every year, taking boarders or whatever you had to do to keep moving up. Then at the end, you could cash out and have money to buy your dream place back in whereever. That is why you have stories of sheetrock laborers buying $800,000 homes in Loudoun. So they made double commissions every year on the same people, plus all the broker’s commissions.
That scheme only works as long as the market is going up fast enough to pay the commissions and taxes that you incur for selling in under two years. These people are in homes that they never could afford anyway, and they are losing tenants due to the construction slow down and their interests rates are going skyhigh. Which adds up to being stuck in a house you never intended to live in for more than a year!
No one should be blaming the supervisors! They are the only ones who’ve tried to fix the mess created by this influx.
Advocator said on 10 Sep 2007 at 2:22 pm:
“The Patriot:
It’s easy to lay blame for la Problema at the feet of the individual illegal aliens for failing to observe the nuances of our immigration laws. Those nuances are difficult for some of us with over 20 years of schooling, working on the day shift, to understand. All the illegals know is that if they take minimal risk, they can live a decent life; fail to take advantage of the risk, they and their families may starve. That’s not much of a choice.”
Puuuuuleeeeeeeeeeze! Using that logic people that need food for the table should have license to rob banks, steal identities, ruin legal citizen credit records, etc. etc. etc.??? Funny, there are plenty of people that DO follow the rules from the same countries of origin! It is a choice between right and wrong…yes…it is that simple! They know exactly what they are doing! Excuses, excuses, excuses.
Well said Patriot. God puts a conscience in every person. He is also the One who said to not show partiality in judgement even when someone is poor. Yes, there is a right and wrong.
Advocator, you fail to mention that it is apologists such as yourself that are a very very big part of this problem.
The illegal aliens are pretty smart too. They know how to work the system. Many could pay if they wanted to. Many households would have five people working earning at least 1000 a month or more.
They could afford it. They never had any intention of honoring the loan. They are not American citizens where their credit will be ruined for several years.
Many illegal alien never planned on paying off the house. They would just get the loan, make a few payments and then live rent free while they were foreclosed on.
They would take the money meant for housing payments and go back to Mexico after living months rent free.
While the home owners paid no mortgage, they charged money for the boarders and renters.
On the bright side, I know people in Manassas that sold there house for 600 K about a year ago and moved. They might buy their house back for 300 K now that it is in forclosure.
ddpdrinker, put it best. I was told by a Latino real estate, about 50% of the time, the houses being purchased had never been seen by the purchaser, until after settlement happened and they got the keys to house.
The number of foreclosures continues to rise, while our property values continue to drop. I’ve said it before, how can you feel sorry for people who got loans that they should’ve never gotten financing for in the first place. Now the rates are adjusting, and principal is now starts having to be paid back as well. The house accross the street, started out at 6.25%, the went to 13.75%. Too many interest only loans were also made, and no one thought about the payment size when the princiapal would have to be paid back.
You’d have to be crazy to think that this problem was caused by the PWCBOS.
It’s the shady loan officers, real estate agents, and the mortagage companies for making these ridiculous loans in the first place.
Some foreclosures in Lake Ridge have been on the market for months. It may take a year before the banks allow the price to drop to make a sale. Meanwhile, those trying to sell have had listings up for a year with no takers. Obviously these is a mispriced properties.
Sellers are just going to have to wait a year or two. More loans will come do in the spring of 2008 which will cause another wave of foreclosures.
In 2005, I think 33% of the loans in the DC area were interest only. Houses off Hoadley were selling for $900,000. I am sure there are plenty of illegals with loans but maybe some are for the folks that couldn’t afford $900,000 and didn’t want to live in nice Hylton style homes….that weren’t good enough for them. Some of the foreclosures are due to pure greed. The rest…..agree!!
“This is not the fault of the PWCBOS, Manassas and the Park.”
It is when you consider that the Park, at least, jacked up their spending at a rate proportional to which the houses were increasing in value, and made a 5-year budget with a 10% annual spending increase for 5 years.
“I predicted this would happen 3 years ago.”
Anyone with half a brain in the Park could have predicted it too, and managed their spending accordingly. But they didn’t. Whoohoo! Windfall! Let’s build the school, the fire station, and the police station, these prices will keep going up FOREVER!
I dont think it’s the fault of the supervisors at all, as a resident of PWC for almost 5 years I could see visible changes that happened just while I’ve been here.
If I had been able to see the future today, I would not have bought my house here but instead moved down to stafford where I could have got more for my money.
Illegals are turning our County into one big toilet. As soon as the market improves (hopefully) I’m going to dump my house and move further south unless the illegals start getting hammered. I’m tired of living next to flophouses and seeing 7-11’s urinated on among other things.
josh
Now, lets talk about credit cards….. a husband and wife buy the house. The credit card comes to one party - you get a lot of offers when you buy a house - lets say they get 4 or 5 credit cards and the one spouse maxes out each one and takes the cash-out option, too. That cash is used to purchase a vehicle. The credit cards are not paid on - the vehicle cannot be repossessed because cash was paid for it - the credit card company cannot lien the real estate because husband and wife together have creditor protection and MAGIC - a bankruptcy is filed wiping out all of the debt !!!! Years ago a co-worker, Latino, maxed out her cards by taking all of her family to Disney World, came back and waited 3 months and file bankruptcy. This was intentional. She came back laughing talking about what a great country this was. Makes me sick.
Well, maybe they are pretty smart after all. You have to admit, the USA has some great tax and banking loopholes. Most of us working slugs don’t know them. Guess you have to be an illegal or one of the elite big business dogs to know how this works. Hmmmmm… usually the one who knows the policies the best are the biggest abusers.
Thanks for making the connection for me between big business and illegals. Knew it was there!!
the bankruptcy laws were changed,
it’s not as easy to get total liquidation any more and most people are getting chap 13’s and entering into payment programs. the good part about it is that people who are abusers are forced to pay, the bad part is it can negatively affect people who have real problems
illegals live within the radar, most of them are so dumb they cannot tie their own shoelaces yet they do seem to know enough of the rules to get a free ride.
as a side note..a “funny” story..went to mcdonalds today which is odd for me but I was damn hungry..Not a damn person spoke english either other than what was on the menu. i asked the girl for my reciept and she froze, deer in headlights look. I didnt ask her for the secrets of the universe or anything hard, just for my reciept. She couldnt communicate with me, hideous.
Josh: I know the bankruptcy laws have now changed. Most illegals are not as dumb as you’d think. I understand they are schooled in what to take advantage of and how to get the free ride. Some will act dumb, on purpose. Some will pretend not to speak or understand English, on purpose, especially in the Courts. Most know what they are doing and laugh all the way to the bank or to the 7-11 to wire money home. Do you know what a Latino and a cue-ball have in common? The harder you smack’em the more English you get out the ‘em.
The foreclosures are now so numerous, PWC-Neighborhood Services is sponsoring the Homeowner Leadership Institute on Friday, October 5.Designed for homeowners who are active on HOA Boards or committees. Well, it looks PWC, is now trying to educate the residents. This is great news. HOA’s do have power to help control a wide range of violations. They are not doing their part to enforce the Restrictions of the HOA’s. HOA’S must start taking action. Hope this institute is well attended, there are MANY townhouse communities very run down, and overcrowded.
[…] Black Velvet Bruce Li […]
Dan:
Re your post on 10 Sep 2007 at 4:45 pm: You’re calling the wrong guy names, buddy. I prefer to put the responsibility where I see it should be placed, on our politicians. The illegals are simply taking advantage of a situation that they created. If you were part of creating that situation, or if you continue to endorse politicians like Frank Wolf or Tom Davis, then you are also avery big part of the problem, in my opinion. But I won’t label you. You would be wise to reciprocate.
ddp…
I’m with you totally,
and I’m laughing like hell…:) I did check to make sure they didnt hock one on my burger or do something wicked to my food before I ate it.
Josh
Wow, DDP’s perspective is truly eye opening. You work hard your whole life following the rules and hjopefully maintaining integrity to get ahead and users, morons and thieves (regardless of their ethnicity) have you questioning what you work and stand for.
We must find ways of holding those responsible accountable while improving our quality of live in neighborhoods. Can PWCBOS or other governing bodies pass laws that empty houses can be used by police, firefighters, teachers for a period of time? Many of these “hometown heroes” still can not afford to live in the communities in which they work. Plus it puts honest law abiding people back in the place of criminals.
Business and others MUST be held accountable. Employers/business who hire illegals are creating the problem and they should incur financuiial consequences rather than Joe average cittizen continuing to foor the bill on our homeowner tax rate.
Once we start seeing businesses being shut down in our locality, we should start realizing real results for the better. When can we expect this to start happening? Other states are starting these activities….so far…our locality is just talk and no action! We need action and we need it now!
http://www.bankofamericaboycott.com/banklist/index.shtml#PA
Here is a list of banks that do not support or do support illegal aliens. The banks with the U.S. Flag do not support them. Type in VA to get the list of VA banks.
Unfortunately, this is just the beginning. What is being reported is just the tip of the iceberg. They report on foreclosures, but the pre-foreclosures (i.e. bank owned properties) aren’t really in the public purview. It’s complicated, but basically once the default proceedings are complete and the occupants evicted (or many times they just abandon the house) the bank reposses the property and puts it on the market to sell, before the foreclosure which would put it on the courthouse steps at auction. Last December I was shopping for a home for my daughter — I inherited a small sum of cash that I could use to help her buy her first home — and I started looking at bank owned properties. Those properties are often in horrible shape (people who don’t pay their mortgages don’t keep up the homes) and I thought I could get a good deal taking one off the banks default books.
Well let me tell you, there were 600 bank owned properties in the City of Manassas alone and more than 200 foreclosures back then. Some were in such bad shape that I couldn’t get an appraisal to satisfy the lender on the amount owed. Furthermore, what I found out is that most of these houses had mortgages for far more than they were worth. In one instance it was $100,000 more! Unscrupulous buyers, sellers, real estate agents and mortgage brokers were using all the special No-Doc, No income verification, 100% financing, interest-only etc. loans to fraudulently finance homes way over their values and then pocketing the extra cash or, in some cases, splitting the extra cash between them. This process also helped fuel the rise of the real estate market and caused much of the real estate bubble. The truly sad part of this is that our local governments took advantage of this false bubble and raised assessments on homes that were based on an unsustainable and unjustifiable rise in prices. The local governments were too fat and happy to even bother to look into the reality of what was going on. I’m no real estate whiz-kid. I did basic research on the properties I was reviewing and it was clear to me what was going on. In checking assessments to base my purchase offers I saw homes where the assessment went up $80k-$120k in a single year because one or two homes in a subdivision had sold for ludicrous amounts of money. These over-inflated assessments also contributed to the foreclosures because many people can’t absorb that kind of rise in their payment.
The banks were in denial and weren’t willing to accept a reasonable price (I wrote 10 contracts and all were rejected because the banks thought they could hold out for the full amount). And come the end of the year, when the banks will have to divulge just how much they have lost in these bad deals the market is going to drop like a stone. This will likely be worse than the early ’90s crash.
Lenders are going out of business left and right (as of last March there were 30), one of the biggest lenders Countrywide just laid off 20-25% of their work force, and Fannie Mae (the worst offenders of giving home loans to people who can’t afford them) are reporting record losses. Fannie Mae is trying to avoid more foreclosures by creating 50 year mortgages to allow folks in default to keep their homes, but since many of the mortgages were obtained fraudulently by those lying about their income I can’t imagine many will be helped by that. There are some on Capitol Hill proposing a “bail out” of the “poor saps” that were “duped” by unscrupulous lenders/agents so they can keep their homes while we, the taxpayers, pay for it. That’s a crock. No one was “duped”. Any idiot knows if they’re making $10 an hour they can’t make a payment on a $400k-$500k house and they should be prosecuted for fraud like anyone else. If all they lose is their house, they should feel lucky as they get to walk away, while we get stuck footing the bill with higher real estate taxes (God forbid the local governments trim their spending), lower home values and rising interest rates.
And, yes, the illegal aliens are a big part of the problem. They buy these expensive homes, cash out all of the equity and never make a single payment. It usually takes a year or more to foreclose on a property — and if they know how to manipulate the system well enough it can take 2 or more years — so they get to live in a house they don’t pay for and walk away at the end. It’s not like illegals can be sued, and the local governments aren’t collecting the real estate taxes from these homes, so yet again, the taxpayers foot the bill.
And SHAME on ALL the local governments for not capping annual assessment increases at inflation + 1 or 2%!! Had that been done, the volatile real estate market would have little affect on the localities and taxpayers. An increase of 5% in assessments is sustainable in the long haul and would have avoided the bloated budgets created by windfalls in real estate taxes. It would also have likely kept at least some people from defaulting on their mortgages (remember real estate taxes are part of the payment and a big tax bill can raise a mortgage by hundreds of dollars per month!) Capping assessment increases would not keep house prices low — the market bears what buyers will pay regardless of tax assessments. The local governments are not going to collect the taxes on the foreclosed properties for this year and the assessments will all drop substantially next year so what will they do? Does anyone think that budgets will be trimmed accordingly? Of course not. Every government program is “sacred” and any cut back of budget amounts for these programs will cause “worlds to collide” so they will have to jack the tax RATE to offset these losses. Poor planning and a lack of common sense on the part of our elected officials, coupled with catering to illegal aliens who generally pay nothing (maybe sales tax?) into the system leads only to disaster.
IF, and that’s a big IF, we can purge the illegal aliens from the area the demand on services will be substantially reduced and we may be able to ride out the storm with a lot less pain in the wallet… but I’m not going to hold my breath.
Oh, and another big reason housing SALES are off 35% as noted earlier is because with the demise of the sub-prime market there is simply no money to lend. A year ago, the hamburger-flippers (noted in a prior post) could buy anything they wanted and even bid on homes inflating prices to ridiculous levels. Now even well qualified buyers with A+ credit are finding it difficult to finance homes. Hang on everybody, it’s going to be a long ride downhill.
As legal citizens, when can we expect to have our tax assessments lowered then? I surely do not want to overpay!
Greg, maybe you can get some information from Corey and the BOCS on this situation?
An interesting side note is that the MJM has a story in today’s edition regarding the cancellation of a hispanic festival that was to have been held in MP last weekend based in part on the County resolution. They said the interest among vendors were low as well, and noted that last year 75%(I think that was the number) of the vendors were from banks and mortgage companies.
Now, Dan and AW Cheney, after you’ve been educated a bit by Gidget in Fairfax, tell me our politicians like Wolf and Davis are not to blame for this debacle. Tell me it’s the poor who ride discarded bicycles to Coverstone who are to blame for the coming crash. Wake up, people. Someone gave America away, and it was not the illegal aliens. If what Gidget says is true, there are many in Congress that had better scrunch down in the seats when riding in their bullet proof limos once this crash happens.
All:
I recommend everyone in PWC got to Frank Wolf’s website and send an e-mail asking if he’ll amend President Bush’s mortgage bailout proposal to require lending institutions require proof of legal residency in the United States prior to accepting applications for the program. I’ve done that, but the sumbitch no longer answers my mail to him. I tried to catch him at Stirrup’s BBQ, but he scooted.
Advocator,
There is plenty of blame to go around, but you seem to not want to blame illegals? Or, do I have that wrong?
COM:
Blame them for what? Being here? Everybody in the rest of the world wants to be here.
For taking advantage of no border security? Last I heard, the US Government was in charge of that.
For working for wages that Americans consider slave wages, but are 10 times what they would make in their home countries if they could find the work? There’s no law they are breaking when they do this. But employers are committing felonies by hiring them. Looks to me like the employers are responsible for this, and immigration officials for allowing it to happen.
For violating our zoning “laws.” There’s no teeth to the laws, and no one really enforcing them. We have a law making it a federal felony to rent or allow a dwelling to be used by an illegal, but no enforcement of it.
No. I do not want to blame the illegals for taking advantage of a situation created by, tolerated by, and encouraged by our elected politicians and appointed officials. That’s scapegoating, just as it was in Deutschland in the ’30’s. It leads to bad stuff, wrong decisions, dissipated energy, and allowing the responsible people off the hook. The American people have been tyrannized (is that a word?) by their elected leaders. Our leaders are responsible for the illegals’ presence and the situation that enticed them here. We should not let them forget it.
If you need further support for my position, just go to Frank Wolf’s or Tom Davis’ websites. There is NOTHING there indicating that they have any inclination to address this problem. They’ve given away the farm, and it’s business as usual with them. Let’s rescue the Daruris. In my opinion, they are traitors and deserve the worst that life could mete out for them. If I thought I could get away with it … .
Why isn’t there a law to prevent illegal aliens from buying a house?
Advocator,
How can you NOT place blame on illegals? Just because one “can” get away with something does NOT justify doing it. Based on your theory if someone enters and robs my house because I foget to lock my doors they are not criminals they are entitled to my stuff and I am to blame. Don’t EVEN try justifying criminal behavior on the victim even if the victim was irresponsible.
4kidz, etc:
Burglarizing your house is a felony under state law. Unauthorized entry into the U.S., and continued presence here is not “criminal.” It is a civil violation, on the same level as a speeding ticket. My philosophy does not condone violating any law, civil or criminal. But the problem of illegal aliens in this country is a problem of enticement, encouragement, and tolerance for the problem. Do I place any blame on them? Maybe a little.
My garden lettuce is usually devoured by rabbits before I can harvest it. Do I get mad at the rabbits? Of course. Can I hold them responsible for taking advantage of a situation that I created and continue to tolerate by not putting up a barrier. No. They’re just creatures of the Almighty doing what their instincts dictate. God bless them.
Advocator, the illegal aliens break many more laws than just entering! Identity theft, stolen social security cards, stealing benefits that they are not entitled to, double dipping benefits that they are not entitled to, etc. etc. Get real!
Advocator, based on the above….what would you suggest we do with legal citizens who are in jail who committed the same crimes?
Advocator,
It is against the law to come here illegally, to work here, to steal identities, to buy fake documents to not pay taxes. How exactly is that not their problem? I see you are another self loathing American. Exactly, how are we responsible for people who on their own will come here to break the law? Why should the companies be held responsible? Given your views, they are just taking advantage of what is out there? So, in reality, you simply refuse to see a problem at all. Unless of course you consider that to be hypicritcal.
Is it scapegoating to go after child molesters? is it scapegoating to go after those that rape? We have laws against those crimes, but that does not stop everyone from committing such crimes, do you really think we can blame the system on that? Do we excuse those that engage in such crimes because they were obviously able to do it because they were not stopped from doing it?
You lie when you say Frank Wolf has not done anything about this issue. But I suppose that should not be surprising coming from someone who supports criminals. He voted against amnesty, he has provided Federal funds to fight gangs such as MS-13. Tell us again how he has not done anything.
I can’t help it that illegals are suckers for bad mortgages, maybe if they had not broken the law, they would have been able to obtain a mortgage like regular folks. Again, just another example of where they screw things up.
Again, using your logic, consumers are never wrong, and never make poor purchasing decisions, it is always the fault of the company selling the product.
So, in effect you believe illegals have a different set of values that make it possible for them to break the law, and no worry about it? What do you think about those that come here legally? Suckers?
Finally, not every illegal who comes here works, what is your excuse for them?
Advocator,
BTW, unlike you, I am willing to place blame on whomever contributes to the problem. I’m sorry that you seem to only want to support selective law breakers.
advocator,
you might want to check out your u.s. code as you are totally incorrect
I present the u.s. code for your reading pleasure:
Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, “Improper Entry by Alien,” any citizen of any country other than the United States who:
* Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or
* Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
* Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;
has committed a federal crime.
Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense.
Patriot:
That’s a no-brainer. You convict, jail them, deport them. I’m all for that. Just like when I catch a bunny munching on my lettuce, I put a .22 pellet in his rear. Criminality should be addressed as criminality and not tolerated.
The larger issue is the presence of 20 million illegal aliens. Who is responsible for their presence? My answer is our elected federal leaders. In this area, that’s Tom Davis and Frank Wolf, who have been in office during the development of the problem. Some yellow-dog Republicans just cannot bring themselves to place responsibility where (in my opinion) it belongs. On the backs of these two representatives, in this area. They will obfuscate the issue by scapegoating the illegals themselves. As I said before, that attitude leads to poor decisions, loss of focus, and dissipation of energy and resources. Like Maureen chasing a few chanters. Our beef is not with the illegals (unless they’re criminals), it’s with our leaders.
Advocator,
All illegals are criminals. So, in reality, you agree with us, and all of them should be deported.
Again, why ignore what Frank and Tom have done? Have they both voted against amnesty? Have they both supported fighting crime such as gangs?
How is that not trying to do something?
The focus needs to be on the illegals, since not all of them come here to work.
I love how you supporters of illegals continually ignore questions and facts directed toward your weak arguments in support of illegals.
COM:
No, not all illegals are criminals. I exceeded the speed limit on the way to work this morning. That does not make me a criminal. Being in the US illegally is not criminal. Big diff. But I agreee they should all be deported.
Please tell me what Frank and Tom have done besides vote against the 1986 Immigration Reform Act. Between their two districts, they’ve probably got a higher concentration of illegals than any other district except the Southwest. Where’s their outrage? Where’s their call for securing the borders? Where are the Congressional hearings finding out why the borders are not secure? Where are their fact finding trips to El Paso and Brownsville (as opposed to Lagos and Sierra Leone)? Why aren’t they standing shoulder to shoulder with their colleague Tom Tancredo as he addresses the problem. Why do we have to rely on a congresswoman from rural TN to introduce legislation on this problem instead of them? They’ve let us down. They’ve betrayed us for what they thought would be their own political gain once the illegals got amnesty. Tell me where I’m wrong, but don’t call me names. I’m on your side. I’m just trying to keep us focused.
I can’t find anything on Tom’s site.
If you are against illegals, why do you only want to focus on one aspect of the issue? We need to go after the illegals too, since as I have said a number of times, not all illegals work, so they are not being taken advantage of by companies. You can’t blame companies for that.
Self loathing is not name calling, it is a condition that many Americans have today. You fit that description, since you want to blame America for the actions of illegals, and do not want to place any responsibility on them for their own actions.
COM:
Please read my posts more carefully. I do not blame “America” for anything. I blame specific elected representatives for the fact that their are over 20 million illegal aliens in this country. I hold the elected federal representatives from this area responsible for a large portion of that problem for failing to do take concerted, focused action on it. And by extension, I blame those supporters of those politicians who will not place responsibility where it belongs. Stop the labels, name calling, and pigeon holing and address that issue. Disagree with my premise if you like, but don’t attack me personally. If you are who I think you are you’re a much better and smarter person than that and you do not have to rely on those tactics to engage in an intelligent discussion.
Are the illegals responsible for stepping across the border without authorization? Of course. But berating them for taking advantage of a situation that entices and encourages them and places very little risk on them for taking that step leads to a waste of energy and resources. The politicians are responsible for that situation. Focus your frustration and wrath on them, not the illegals. Only they can change the situation. If it’s not changed, we can deport the present 20 mill, and 20 mill or more will take their place. Just like the bunnies in my backyard. But if I put a fence up and planted something they didn’t like, they’d leave and none would take their place.
Have a good day. Hope things are well with the family.
Illegals are to blame as well. They drive around here in their expensive SUV’s and buy big screen TVs. They go to one house across the street using their vehicles instead of walking. They know how to work the system. How about using WIC to get your food then paying for a candy bar with a $100.00 bill. Do you really think these people report their income? I know one man who bought one of those kiddie cars powered by an electric motor and a mini-bike for his kids and yet lets his house deteriorate. They only invest in things that they can take with them. Since they are illegal they will experience no repercussions. They will just abandon the house, move to another community and use another name to get a loan and do the whole sham thing all over again.
Advocator,
All illegals are criminal they are here agains the law. Maybe you need to re-read what Josh said at 11:11.
Then you encourage us to be tolerant using your bunny scenario ….”My garden lettuce is usually devoured by rabbits before I can harvest it. Do I get mad at the rabbits? Of course. Can I hold them responsible for taking advantage of a situation that I created and continue to tolerate by not putting up a barrier. No. They’re just creatures of the Almighty doing what their instincts dictate. God bless them.’
Which you then follow-up with another entry that contadicts your blessing of Gods creatures …. “Just like when I catch a bunny munching on my lettuce, I put a .22 pellet in his rear.”
Where is your tolerance for Gods creatures? When that pellet hits that bunny you are holding that bunny responsible for stealing your lettuce.
Additionaly, one should not equate a wild animal instinctually stealing lettuce to a human being who has knowledge of what they are doing and “supposedly” has a conscious.
Patty,
Wrong! You wish! Yours will just move across the street. Sorry, I couldn’t resist. I saw the rolling trash truck’s new home. No new community for that truck. While I am talking about your rolling trash truck I should go check on my own 20 foot tire truck up on SM Drive.
All kidding aside. I think you bring up a very good point. Why are illegal immigrants permitted to buy houses? Every time I have bought a house, refinanced a house, etc, I have had to dig out enough records to sink a battle ship, including past IRS records. Have things changed that much in recent years? Are we just going on the ‘honor system
now?
Advocator, what shall an illegal alien say to a legal citizen (that came here legally) when questioned why they did not come here using the legal route?
Josh,
The statute you posted deals with entering the country, not being here. Advocator is correct in what he said.
If you are here following a deportation, being here is a criminal act.
Being here, barring previous deportation or criminal conviction, is classified as ‘unlawful presence’ and falls under a different set of rules.
It sounds ridiculous, I know. However, that is how the law is written.
The Senate bill that was defeated had corrected this loophole.
Patriot,
No hablo inglés.
4Kidz:
Sorry for the faulty analogy. I actually plant the lettuce to bait the bunnies so I can dispatch them with my pellet gun. My Doberman loves the meat. OMG, I may have just confessed to a crime, which, incidentally, carries more of a penalty than the first violation of 8 USC 1325. But the chances of getting caught at it are so slim that I think I’ll just keep doing it. I like the hind legs too much, and the hides are soooo soft.
Am I off base for holding our elected reps ultimately responsible for the illegal alien problem? If so, please tell me why. It would be so much easier for me to direct my frustration at the illegals than trying to get politicians to change their behavior.
I just wish they could deputize certain citizens as ICE agents, that should increase their numbers
Advocator,
You are a bit twisted in your banter but…..
You are not off base holding out elected reps responsible. However, they are only one piece of the puzzel. Again, just because you have the ability to do something wrong does not mean that you can and should do it.
I am tired of the “wait for the federal government to take care of it, it is all their fault” song. Honestly do you think for one minute that they are not going to do anything in the near future? PWC does not have the time to wait. Our local and state officials are voted into office too and some of these officials ARE listening to the people that voted them into office.
Advocator,
I don’t know if we know each other or not. But, if you do, then you know how I feel about do nothing elected officials regarding this issue.
I asked if we should blame the system for those that murder or molest, since even though those are criminal actions, the system failed to prevent them from happening. You said nothing to that.
I said not all illegals that come here work, so can we blame companies for those. You said nothing to that.
I asked if everyone who makes bad purchasing choices should be let off the hook, you said nothing to that.
I see a lot of unlocked cars, should I open the doors and take stuff, can I be blameless due to the fact there was an incentive for me to do so, since the owner was not smart enough to lock their car? Because that is basically what you are saying about illegals. You said nothing to that.
I provided what Wolf has done regarding illegal immigration, countering that fact you said he has not done a thing other then vote against amnesty in 1986. You said nothing to that.
Self-loathing is a condition that many have that support illegal immigration. They blame America for the issue, and can’t seem to blame illegals for taking action they realize are against the law. Listen to what Nancy Lyle said in her debate with Greg, she blamed American companies moving to Mexico and taking the land of Mexicans as the reason why illegals have to come here. You display the same type of attitude since you blame elected officials, companies etc and make excuses for illegals to come here. That is not name calling.
4Kidz and COM:
I’m w/ you my friends.
I’m doing what I can do at a local level, using my professional training and the gifts the Good Lord endowed me with to try to effect change. But I just can’t find it in my heart to loathe the individual illegal alien with the same intensity that I sense others do. I live in a neighborhood with them, so my house has lost at least 25% of its value due to their presence; I’ve observed them urinating in the parking lot (incidentally, I have a court date coming up to testify on that subject); I’ve been awakened by their music at all hours of the night; my car has been vandalized for enforcing the HOA’s parking regs (or for the HSM bumper sticker); my lady friends have been leered at and catcalled; my dog has been harassed; and I can probably think of several more reasons to dislike these folks. But when I pass those poor bastards every morning at the Coverstone 7-11, I feel pity for them, not loathing. Call me a bleeding heart, but if you knew me and my background, I don’t think you would. The loathing emotions come when I consider what our elected officials have not done and how they’ve betrayed us on this issue.
As for addressing your analogies, COM, I’ve got to save them for another day and earn my keep for the next few hours.
Let’s agree to get on with working toward a solution to what we all agree is the most pressing problem facing this country. If we can agree to that and stay focused, we can take back our neighborhoods, our County, our Commonwealth, and our Nation.
Out here.
Advocator,
I guess I see it a different way. These people know what they are doing is wrong, they know there is a right way to do it. Once here they quickly add even more criminal charges to their lists of broken laws.
That is why I have no sympathy for them, and especially now with their actions and lack of respect for our Nation, laws, and traditions.
I don’t feel sorry for people who may have to resort to finding a job by hanging out in a parking lot, they would not have to do that if they had just followed the law. That is on them, and only them.
My background is certainly not silver spoons and inclusive neighborhoods. Far from it in fact.
The most pressing issue is illegal aliens, and those that support them.
I look forward to your reply, and I trust you will follow through with it.
I have reading all of your comments on what is going on here. Gidget from Faifax said it the best I believe. I am a realtor and I have been in the business since 1985. I never saw the kind of things that have been happening in the last 3-4 years. I was at a settlement where and agent got a kickback from his mortgage broker who was there at the settlement. The poor sap who bought my listing, paid about 7 points and was royally screwed to be honest. I was shocked to hear that the agent was getting a kickback which is against the law and totally unethical. I have friends who had a contract on their house, had moved out only that after July 25th everything changed and they found out that the agent wrote a contract for a “strawman” who wasn’t going to pay for the house at all. The lender found out and bam, the contract was dead. Some lenders are very ethical and some like the first are monsters. Another thing I saw, showing houses in Manassas was a townhouse, condo that was being “remodeled”. It was the most rediculous house I have ever seen. Who is doing inspections on the remodeling? the house had a Jacuzzi in the listing, however, they had put it in the living room. They divided the bedrooms in half, so some didn’t have a closet or window. The rugs, which were new,didn’t reach the wall, but they were Wall to Wall. Yikes. I hope all the unscrupulous realtors get what they have coming to them. If you know of any, please report them to the PWAR in Manassas. The bad lenders are going under and the good ones would not knowngly give a loan to an illegal. Can they be fooled? Of cource, phony documents, social security numbers and DMV licenses can fool lots of people. We agents know who the unscrupulous agents are. If we have personal experience, we do report them. However, normal citizens can report what they know as well. It must be a combined effort. The BOCS must make sure that zoning laws are enforced, agents must report other bad agents and people who have been treated badly by this new system must also report it. There is enforcement, but it must be reported. This market is causing the blood suckers in the mortgage market and real estate to fold. However, you can’t blame agents for the prices,, sellers demanded and got what they wanted. All of us caused this, and now all of us must fix it.
NP,
Thank you for sharing your experiences. These practices are not only destroying the value of our houses, but are also causing horrible stock market woes.
I sure don’t feel sorry for the financial markets that made their fortunes with ‘creative’ financing but I sure do mind the impact their current failures are having on the stock market.
COM:
“The most pressing issue is illegal aliens, and those that support them. ”
Agreed 100%. My only reservation is that the phrase, “those who support them” include politicians who do nothing effective about the problem.
We get more of what we tolerate. If we tolerate ineffective politicians, we get more of them. Consequently, I’ll continue to badger, berate, belittle, ridicule, harass, and molest Congressmen Davis and Wolf, whom I believe have done nothing but avoid this issue. Pressuring politicians is what our focus should be.
Even though I pity most of the individual illegals for the circumstances into which they’ve been born, I have no sympathy for them as a group either and will continue to support policies that make this country less inviting to them. The criminals among them need to be dealt with as criminals. We’re in agreement on those points.
Advocator,
I agree we need to get after the elected officials who do not nothing about this issue. But there are also other folks besides elected officials who support them as well. There are plenty of average Joes out there who see nothing wrong with illegal aliens, they vote for people who do nothing about it, or who are in favor of granting amnesty. There are law enforcement officials who also support illegals. So, that is why I said supporters rather then use just one example of who supports illegals. Or, if you like, de factor support of them.
I posted links to what Wolf has done, and you continue to say he has not done anything. Why do you continue to say he has not done anything? I think it is unfair for you to keep saying he has not done anything.
I can’t speak for Tom Davis, since I was unable to find anything on his webpage that shows his views and or actions on the issue.
Timmy Kaine is another person we need to get after. Senator Webb and Warner as well.
Outstanding Blog. Diverse opinions in a relatively cordial forum. Bottom line: we must all work in concert, and put aside our differences so that we can hold our politicians accountable to their constiuents. Otherwise, we will lose our democracy. Our borders have been violated, with the knowledge and acquiescence of the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches of government, as well as unethical businesses whose owners will sell their souls for an extra dollar. Only by returning to moral family values, and to the principles so wonderfully articulated by our Found Fathers in the Bill of Rights and the U.S. Constitution will our country survive. This is a global problem, not confined to national borders. Thanks for taking up this noble cause. Continue to pressure your local and national representatives through phone calls, emails, letters, and your vote. Thanks!
Advocator:
“I exceeded the speed limit on the way to work this morning. That does not make me a criminal.”
Yes it does.
Crime: noun: an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious [like speeding!] to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited.
Criminal: noun: One that has committed or been legally convicted of a crime.
“Consequently, I’ll continue to badger, berate, belittle, ridicule, harass, and molest Congressmen Davis and Wolf, whom I believe have done nothing but avoid this issue.”
Advocator, I addressed Frank Wolf’s history and position on this issue to his office, as I promised, and posted the information on a previous thread, with quotes, which I received in response. That you continually choose to ignore it and berate someone WHO HAS A RECORD on the issue (battling the illegal alien invasion) which goes back MUCH farther than it, in all probability, even appeared on your radar. I’m going to repeat what I found out, for your benefit, and will continue repeating it until you acknowledge that you are dead wrong about Frank! Forgive me (everyone else) for being redundant, but here it is:
“Advocator, you must have missed my comment in one of the threads. I received a response from Frank Wolf to my inquiry regarding his record on the illegal alien issue and, in every case that an issue arose in Congress favoring illegal aliens, Frank has strongly opposed it. Greg has a scanned copy of the letter, and I believe he was going to do a post about it at some time. In the interim, allow me to quote portions of it:
“Amnesty is an insult to all law-abiding immigrants who have been waiting in line patiently and legally for their immigration number to come up. Such an amnesty would only intensify an already significant immigration problem and overwhelm our already overburdened social services and law enforcement systems.”
And he has put his actions where his beliefs are (caps are mine, for emphasis):
“When the House considered major immigration reform legislation in 1986, I VOTED TO STRIKE a provision in the bill to grant amnesty to those who had entered the country illegally. When that amendment failed, I voted AGAINST the House bill that included a legalization provision which subsequently became law. YOU CAN FIND MY COMPLETE VOTING RECORD DATING BACK TO 1997 ON MY WEB SITE AT http://wolf.house.gov.”
And I think he makes his position clear, in summary:
“It is critical that we get control of our borders as the first priority for any immigration reform effort. Please know that I will continue to work toward that goal as immigration policy changes are considered.”
As you can see, Advocator, Frank Wolf is NOT a “Johnny-come-lately” to the fight. He was fighting illegal immigration BEFORE most, if not all, of us were aware it was a big issue. Give him credit for considerably more foresight than his constituents. Now, who is it you want representing us in Congress, particularly on this issue…Frank Wolf or Judy Feder?”
I heard Frank Wolf speak this morning, and he clearly has spent time on illegal immigration and gangs such as MS-13.
COM, I’ve come to the conclusion that Advocator has his own agenda when it comes to Frank Wolf. No amount of actual evidence would seem to convince him that Frank is part of the solution rather than the problem…he’d rather we elect someone who will work WITH the illegals toward amnesty than re-elect Frank.
AWC, you are certainly free to conclude what you wish, as I am. I would like to see your good buddy Frank walking down Lafayette Ave or thru Herndon. I would like to see HIM addressing assemblies of folks like HSM and HSF instead of letting the local pols try to grapple with the problem. Until he starts using his pulpit to its full potential on this issue, I will consider him non-engaged, and continue trying to get him engaged. Feder doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of beating him, and if she did, I’d be supporting Wolf much more strongly just to keep another socialist out of office. But after the election, I will certainly be encouraging one of the Republicans from the local or state level to challenge Frank for his seat in the future. And I will continue to harass, citicize, etc., until he puts at least as much effort into this issue as he does with the lost boys and girls of Darfur, or whatever his latest diversionary tactic from real problems might be. Get over your love affair with him and look at what he can and should be doing.
AW,
Yes, he talks a good game, but it is clear when it comes down to it, he really can’t blame the illegals, and would instead place the blame for their actions on someone else. Passivity or whatever you want to call it comes to mind along with self loathing.
There is no question we do have elected officials who either do nothing about the issue or actively work in favor of illegals. However, Frank is not one of them.
These types attempt to appear as if they are pissed at illegals and want to do something about it, but are more like what you said. These are also the types that use the excuse of the Federal Government not doing their job, and well if the Feds won’t do the job no other level of Government should attempt to do it either. Of course these same folks also bitch and complain when the Government does do their jobs, as in the case of raids on businesses that hire illegals.
It is in fact de factor support of illegals. Using words like focus energy, etc, are just tossed in to further muddy the waters.
This has been going on too long.
Not every thread here should be considered open season to take on Frank Wolf. Let’s try to stay on-topic here, OK?
Second, I believe Frank Wolf’s record on the illegal alien issue is pretty solid. No, he hasn’t been out front on this, but it’s completely unfair to characterize him as a member of the open borders lobby. He’s not.
His opponent however most certainly is. If you want to help Judy Feder, the nuttiest liberal who has run in this area in recent memory, you’re definitely not going to help on this issue. Replacing Frank Wolf with an amnesty advocate and communist like Judy Feder would be a huge mistake.
When Frank Wolf retires, perhaps we can get John Stirrup in that office, which I think we all agree would be fantastic. I don’t think John Stirrup would primary Frank Wolf. I don’t see a strong reason for it, but when that seat opens up I would be banging on Stirrup’s door every evening begging him to go for Congress until he announced his candidacy. I’d probably have plenty of company.
Until then, find a more suitable whipping boy. This is pretty ridiculous.
http://grades.betterimmigration.com/testgrades.php3?District=VA10&VIPID=160
Frank’s report card on immigration. His grades look better than others on the roster.
http://grades.betterimmigration.com/delegation.php3?District=VA
The grades of our elected officials for comparison.