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PWCPD Proposes Probable Cause Standard
By Greg L | 14 September 2007 | Prince William County | 92 Comments
The Prince William County Police Department has come up with it’s standard for probable cause which will be used to determine which suspected illegal aliens will be questioned regarding their immigration status. So far, it’s looking pretty good.
The standard is, I’m told, that anyone who cannot provide identification (or in the case of a traffic violation, a valid Driver’s License) will be questioned about their immigration status. It’s not perfect, since some illegal aliens were able to obtain Virginia Driver’s Licenses until Senator Jay O’Brien’s bill required that applicants prove “legal presence”, and at renewal time we’re not identifying who those illegal aliens may be. On the plus side, this will be easily defensible as a legal practice and will likely catch a lot of illegal aliens. Stories of illegal aliens being caught and released after they could not provide a driver’s license are legendary, and the traffic courts are just clogged with these cases.
The cost estimates for this are pretty high, since there’s no consideration of a potential reduction in crime that would result from making it clear to illegal aliens that this is a jurisdiction that will catch them and have them deported if at all possible. It’s hard to even estimate the impact of that positive effect, so perhaps for budgeting purposes it makes sense to start with a conservative and worst-case projection and then adjust budgets based on actual experience.
We may discover that there will be additional opportunities to ask suspected illegal aliens about their immigration status, and if they’ll be legally sound, we can amend the standards to take advantage of them. It’s better to start carefully and take the time to do this right rather than rush, risking legal battles that would be distracting and expensive. It’s not a touchdown, but I think we can say this is a pretty solid first down.
UPDATE: The Manassas Journal-Messenger has some coverage on this in Saturday’s edition. I expect the DC Examiner and the other papers to provide more details shortly.
The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.
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This is a step in the right direction! Now we also need to see businesses start getting shut down in our local area!
I think this is a good first step.
“It’s better to start carefully and take the time to do this right rather than rush, risking legal battles that would be distracting and expensive.”
Sage advice, too bad you don’t use it yourself.
http://lastreporter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/09/casa-of-md-adve.html
This is not a good step for Maryland!
Anon…rather than make ridiculous comments, why don’t you sign the Tim Kaine petition above and get productive!
Patriot - unbelievable!
Anonymous - you are toooooooooo much!
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/lbs/421360215.html
Here is the ad!
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_6879466
This is not a step in the right direction either…this is a circus!
http://www.numbersusa.com/index
“Senate To Consider DREAM Act, Worker Importation Measures Next Week. Send a fax opposing the DREAM Act amnesty and H-1B/H-2B Visa Increases.”
Let me ask you, when you see a “Beware of Dog” sign, and hear barking, is that a effective deterrant? I don’t have to get bit. I just know that if I climb the fence, there is a good chance I’ll get bit. Enough for most rationale people.
That’s what this is. A “Beware of Dog” sign, and lots of barking. I think this will have a big impact, and illegals will move on to jurisdictions without the “Beware of Dog” signs, like Fairfax, Arlington, and Montgomery County.
illegals will move on to jurisdictions without the “Beware of Dog” signs, like Fairfax, Arlington, and Montgomery County.
And now Fauquier.
What about Fredericksburg? I have a friend there who would LOVE to have a Help Save Fredricksburg. Sorry if it was discussed earlier, but just curious.
Thanks.
I agree with Maureen this is a good first step. Well, for those of you who interested in a preview of Charlie’s presentation, at the next PWCBOS meeting 9/18/207 at 2pm. Here’s the link.
http://www.pwcgov.org/documents/bocs/agendas/2007/0918/3-A.pdf
It’s a 107 pages long. Enjoy!
mcr
I think I remember hear that about Fredericksburg as well. I will try to find it. I’m pretty sure I read the comment here on bvbl. We must also remind ALL to sign the petition for a statewide 287(g) program. Here the link for those who’ve yet to sign the petition.
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?VA287g
mcr
Here’s one Fredericksburg comment. I think this is the one we are both think of.
Barbara Cummings said on 17 Jul 2007 at 5:41 pm:
HELP SAVE FREDERICKSBURG
A little dark humor: the following was in Saturday’s Washington Times:
“Fredericksburg: Woman Finds Intruder Sitting on Her Toilet
“Police in Fredericksburg say an elderly woman who went out to buy a newspaper Thursday returned home to find that an intruder was in her home - and on her toilet.
“Police said the man apparently cut a screen and unlocked a door while the woman was out. The woman, who is in her 80s, had noticed the man outside when she was leaving.
“When she returned, she also noticed that the bathroom door was closed.
“Opening the door, she was surprised to see the stranger perched on the toilet.
“Police said she asked him several questions, including “How long are you going to be?”
“He answered in Spanish and she told him she was going to call police. He left quickly, and police are investigating.”
Huh??!!
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Thanks, Lafayette -
Yes, I remember that story……and will forward it to her.
I told her to sign up and come to HSM meetings until a “help save” was established in her community.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070909/FOREIGN/109090036/1001
“Those who we welcome into the UK to work and settle here need to understand our traditions and feel that they are part of our shared national culture,” Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said. “They need to integrate into our country, learn English and use our language.”
The UK is finally getting it! Now we must follow suit!
Well, at least he had the decency to relieve himself indoors.
This is a very good standard, and one that is fair to everyone. Every now and then, one needs a government issued photo ID in order to conduct certain personal business, and for this reason every responsible adult carries one or should carry one. If you do not drive, a state issued non-driver’s id can be obtained for a small fee. In other words, it’s a standard that every legal resident can and should be able to meet. It is also a standard that does not rely on appearance or the presence of a foreign accent. Therefore it does not target any racial or ethnic group. Not racist at all!
Patriot when will you and Stewart propse to arrest individuals who use illegals to do work for them paid in cash ? If you want to make it illegal for a business to hire illeglas, which I have no problem with, then make it illegal for an individual who hires them for that LOW LOW Price and then gets the shaft because they did not finish the work or did such a sloppy job. The scape goat in all of this is the builders but what about that resturant you like to go to so much or the grass cutter.
What about the high prices we have to pay for dry cleaning because the PWC BOCS passed a zoning law to protect the Korean Dry Cleaners Assoc. Maybe you like paying 50 to 80% more for your dry cleaning then you should if fixed price dry cleaners were allowed in PWC. Maybe you do not believe in Free Enterprise.
You think of illegals as being latinos but you should see Annandale and other such enclaves. One of the biggest violations of building codes in Fairfax County comes from the Korean community and how they do whine and claim discrimination when the laws are tried to be enforced. Several attornies and others have been arrested in Annandale for immigration violations. You honestly do not have much of an idea of all the problems of illegal immigrants.
Funny story…
4.5 years ago when I moved into my townhouse in lakeridge I had to fix my backyard fence door. I went to lowes and bought a new fence section. I removed the old one so I had a big gap in the back fence. Since I’m naturally lazy, I took a few days to install it.
I have a very large rottweiler, awesome guard dog. He started barking really loud one day and he basically forced me to the back patio door. I saw two hispanics carrying my new fence section out of the back yard and up the embankment. I suppose they were going to load into a truck.
I stopped them, they spoke no english. But they did understand it when I said if they came back my dog would maul them. I called police and they took a report. I got their license number on the truck, not sure if anything happened but I’ve never seen them again. I had to resort to putting a camera in my backyard since I dont go out there much but since my beast patrols out back I dont have to worry much
My only question to this day…why on earth would they steal a section of fence? how ridiculous is that?
Bob,
Hear me out…. I believe while not doing the approach you spelled out in your post(though I agree) the County did in fact try to put an end to a major day laborer site in Woodbridge at the 7-11. Yes, the focus was on the illegals, but the point is that without the illegals lining up at the 7-11, folks would not come by to pick them up. Thus, you kill two birds with one stone, you keep the area in and around the 7-11 clean, and you prevent people from taking advantage of the illegals.
I say we move on to the schools asap. Parent(s)/Guardians must prove legal residence to send their child. I can’t figure out why illegals are allowed in the PWC schools but I can’t pick the school of my choice. If I am restricted by boundaries within a county certainly the boundaries of countries must come into play!
Regarding ESOL which is not an illegal problem — kindergarten readiness, grade placement all acceptance should require a level of English. ESOL should find funding to support themselves. In the long run it is in the BEST interest of the child.
Let’s go….!
Bob, no one is going to propose that employers be arrested by local police for hiring illegals because it would be against federal law. Patriot at least has the good sense to offer suggestions that are legally enforceable.
I think we all want better penalties on employers who hire illegals — I sure do. But until we can change federal law and remove the protections that the business lobby worked to include in federal legislation, there is little that can be done at the state and local level.
Don’t whine to me. Whine to your congressman and senator. Do something productive, for God’s sake.
One Voice -
Check out the home page of Metz Middle School - they’ve added something new there - “residency regulation 7-12″ … I was really excited when I saw it…until I got to the very end of the document where there is an Affidavit of Residency document.
Bob, shutting down a business = revoking a business license permanently! Once a few get shut down, it should cause other businesses to refrain from the practice of hiring illegals. Who said anything about arresting the business owners??? Seriously, you sympathizers need to provide quotes to back up your statements (if you are claiming that someone said something in particular). Furthermore, why should I have to check the legal status of an employee (of a business) that shows up to do work? The burden should be on the business, not me! Better yet, if the businesses that hire illegals are shut down, we won’t even have to worry about that anymore now will we!?!
Bob, as far as your comment of who comprises illegals….illegals come from everywhere! It just so happens that a large majority of them are from south of the border! If you disagree, you will need to study up on the subject! I don’t care where an illegal is from…they ALL need to be deported!
Bob, take Greg’s advice and do something productive….like signing the Tim Kaine petition above!
ManassasCityResident
I did read the form - that’s too bad. PWC Schools website refers to an affidavit as well. Likely a state thing. There must be a federal law that VA can adopt that would allow the schools to not accept illegal students; although I am more concerned about the ESOL issue and dumbing down of the schools than illegals. Each is bad, both are a disaster.
I have a child in a public high school. This is an eye opening experience for me. Growing up in the Northeast private schools (K-college) were the norm; Can’t say I’d send a second child into this. Far too many excuses.
My experience was all parochial schools (no one ever hit me or anyone else I knew! no one I knew was abused!) where all students were expected to do their best - that varied based on the student but we all grew up knowing there were individual expectations were were supposed to meet through personal responsibility.
I thought that was diversity!
Bob Wills:
Funny, you never see the Koreans urinating in public. Seems that most of the drunk driving, rapes, gang activity, etc. involve Hispanics, not Koreans. Koreans don’t have anchor babies like the Hispanics do. Do the Koreans have gangs like MS-13? I’ve never heard about it. Hispanics tend to have illegitimate children, often are illiterate and uneducated and have multiple identities. Do the Koreans? Mexico is a third world country and sends those on the lowest rungs of society here. When the Koreans of Annandale begin to cause as much trouble and cost the taxpayers as much as the Hispanics, then we’ll be on it.
What’s with the red herring? Think we’re stupid?
“When the Koreans of Annandale begin to cause as much trouble and cost the taxpayers as much as the Hispanics, then we’ll be on it.”
Well there you have it folks, it’s not really about the “illegals” after all, its about those trouble-making Hispanics. Nice, and by the way there are Korean gangs you moron.
Anonymous -
We all know you are pro-illegal - we get it - so what else is there to say?
Ron Paul: “I Believe In National Sovereignty”
http://vdare.com/misc/070912_paul.htm
that standard of probable cause is absurd- it will be found unconstitutional
Of course there are Asian gangs, they just are not as high profile as other ethnic gangs. The crime of choice for Asians in this area are home invasions(right from FFX county finest).
There was an article this week in the COMPOST that provided an overview of the DC metro area immigrant community, and it must have been hard for the COMPOST to run it, since it was not positive at all toward immigrants from Mexico and Central America. They lag behind their Asians counter parts in wealth and English language ability.
One stat from the story really caught my attention. While it is a very small percentage, nevertheless, 1.5% of children who are born to immigrants in this area enter school without the ability of speaking any English.
Hispanic students leaving Tulsa area schools
http://www.kten.com/Global/story.asp?S=7074577
one voice & manassascityresident
I saw this Affidavit, what a joke. The illegals have broken the law by being here, and the PWCPS & Manassas City schools, accept this. Well, that’s just insane! Why wouldn’t someone here ILLEGALLY, lie on the Affidavit. I’m sure they don’t admit to being an ILLEGAL ALIEN. The schools most definately need looked at. I see more school aged children running around the neighborhood than I did during the summer. I addressed this at the PWCBOS meeting on the first day of school. Where are the Truant Officers? We MUST take a look at the schools. We didn’t even mention the immunization records being verified.
Lafayette: Don’t EVEN get me started on the schools!!! It’s bad enough that we have to see these bastards urinating on the sides of buildings, running across the road in front of our cars like Frogger ™, now we are expected to TEACH THEIR OFFSPRING!!! I think NOT!!! How do we know these kids have all their shots and that the shot records were done by a qualified, not sumpathetic, doctor? Then, the bratlings will be cussing out the teachers in Spanish, turning homework assignments in in Spanish, and failing the SOLs, thus making the school look bad and in turn, the teachers who are busting their butts trying to keep disinterested teenagers interested!!!
It’s enough to make you want to send the tunnel rats down the holes in the border states and tell them to just clean up!!!
How many illegal aliens drive? It is a safe start but it is not realistic.
It is interesting how yo claim a victory out of nothing. Days ago you were bragging about PWC s the model for the rest of the country.
Plenty of illegals drive in this area. I know of two neighbors who have been involved in car accidents with illegals in the past year. Or, I suppose the odds were just right, and my two neighbors ran into the only two illegals who dive in this area.
You better believe they drive, I’ve been in two accidents(5 and half months pregnant, car totalled) caused by admitted ILLEGAL ALIENS. So, please don’t tell ME they don’t drive. Get a grip!!! I’ve told of several stories, besides two driving accident. Cars hit four times right here on Lafayette. I even put a sign on my windshield the last time it happened. Many folks stopped to take a look!! Where are the abusive driver fee’s for those without licencse and insurance??
Above to SEE YOUR PROBLEM
Well, yes I sure DO see YOUR problem.
Lafayette: That is absolutely HORRIBLE!!! My gut would say to just execute the bastards. Bad enough they came here illegally, but then to cause harm to you and your baby!!!! The MOMENT they admitted they were illegal, I would be sizing them up for orange jump-suits.
I sure hope that the Police Chief has something more legally defensible in mind for determining probable cause to inquire about legal status than what you have outlined here.
Someone who is driving a car and is stopped for a traffic offense obviously can be asked for a driver’s license since driving is a privilege and the requirement that you have in your possession a driver’s license is clearly constitutional. How the failure to have a driver’s license in your possession, standing alone, however, amounts to “probable cause” to believe that someone is here illegally is a more difficult proposition to defend. There are lots of Virginia citizens out there driving on suspended/revoked licenses (and there are sure to be more if the abuser fees aren’t changed) and plenty of other citizens who run to the store without their wallets and get stopped without a license in their possession.
In addition, someone who is on the street and not in a car, or who is a passenger in a vehicle, and who is lawfully stopped and detained may not be compelled to give more than his name. This means that the “no driver’s license” “probable cause” standard won’t work for those folks at all.
The Supreme Court articulated standards in Hiibel v. Nevada for when a person can be required by law to identify himself/herself and what they can be required to show/say.
First, any local ordinance requiring a person to identify himself/herself, and the actions of the police officer authorizing or effecting a stop or detention pursuant to the ordinance, must clearly comply with the constitutional requirement that the initial stop by the police be based on “specific, objective facts establishing reasonable suspicion to believe the suspect was involved in criminal activity.” “Stop and ID” laws are not a free pass to engage in stereotyping or biased policing nor do they authorize any officer to stop a person who is not engaged in criminal activity, for example, a person attending a sporting event or simply standing on a street corner looking for work.
Second, the Court in Hiibel decided that the Nevada law requiring a person lawfully stopped to give his name was constitutional in part because “the statute does not require a suspect to give the officer a driver’s license or any other document.” Furthermore, the Court stated that, even where the law requires a person to identify himself/herself to police, “an officer may not arrest a suspect for failure to identify himself if the request for identification is not reasonably related to the circumstances justifying the stop.” In other words, the request may not extend beyond a request for a person’s name and even that request must be related to the officer’s investigation of the suspected criminal activity that justified the stop in the first place.
Finally, the Court left open a question in Hiibel that might have been answered differently for a person stopped who is an undocumented immigrant or other person not lawfully present in this country. The Supreme Court refused to decide on the facts of the Hiibel case whether there are cases where simply requiring disclosure of the person’s name to the police would violate his/her right against self-incrimination protected by the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution.
Looks to me like the chief has got some work to do in coming up with a defensible “probable cause” standard for on the street inquiries into immigration status.
In addition, the determination of legal presence isn’t all that easy to do. For one thing, if you run a person’s name (especially without a birthdate) on the NCIC or LESC data bases you are likely to get a significant number of mistaken “hits” (particularly if it is a common name) and if you get no hit, you only know that a person is either a citizen of the US (none of whom are in these data bases) or someone who entered the US without authority and has not yet had “contact” with ICE.
Here’s what DMV requires to determine lawful presence: http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/pdf/dmv141.pdf
A driver’s license can be used to prove identity at DMV but cannot be used to establish lawful presence. How many of you all carry your birth certificates, US Passports or DS 1350’s with you daily?
The difficulty in finding a legally defensible standard for initiating street level inquiries and the means to make defensible decisions regarding lawful presence once you do, illustrates why it makes more sense to start by focusing resources on being sure that sheriffs and jail authorities and probation officers are complying with current state law that mandates that they ascertain the status of everyone admitted to custody and report the names of those criminals not lawfully present in the U.S. to the Central Criminal Records Exchange or the State Police and ultimately to ICE.
The Crime Commission study indicated that 68% of the 51% of sheriffs who responded were not in compliance with this existing state law: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+53.1-218
Probation and parole officers also must ascertain status and report:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+19.2-294.2
Also worth pursuing is legislation introduced (but not passed) in the last session of the General Assembly by Senator Mark Herring (SB1421) and Delegate Chuck Caputo (HB3206) and Delegate Todd Gilbert (HB2322) which would have established a requirement that the citizenship status of everyone arrested be determined before they are taken before a magistrate for a bond/bail hearing and a presumption against bail for anyone arrested and taken into custody who is determined to be unlawfully present (legislation supported actively by the Virginia Coalition of Latino Organizations in both the House and Senate Courts of Justice Committees).
Greg L and I agree on one thing. “It’s better to start carefully and do this right.”
Let’s enforce the existing laws applicable to jail, corrections and probation officials and focus on keeping criminal aliens from getting back on the street once arrested, before we seek to put every police officer on the street in the role of trying to determine immigration status without necessary training or legal authority and in circumstances sure to invite litigation and undermine the benefits of community policing to the detriment of all of our safety.
I cant wait until we see all localities and states start implementing the squeeze on these illegals. The way I see it, they have no constitutional right to anything. They are nothing but criminals in my mind who have exploited a weak system.
I’m counting the days before I see them leave in droves, good riddens…the day is coming soon!
SEE, glad to see you posting! Why don’t you provide your “proof” quotes to me in the other thread? Will you uphold the tradition of the liberals making claims without the proof? Your credibility is on the line!
Josh
The day is certainly coming! I’ve noticed many vacant houses since 7/10/07, 25 apartments vacated at Prince Cole Apts., now Old Centreville Gardens, with two weeks of resolution being passed.
Didn’t make it 7-11, yesterday, will visit it Monday. I’m sure that there will be plenty of ILLEGALS still there.
JL
Yes, is was horrible. That joker came to court for his third DUI, and admitted to being here illegally, and didn’t bring a dime of money to pay the fines. The judge gave himthree hours to go home and get his money. Shame on the judges, too!! The two illegals, were in the ER with me and my parents all from the accident. Disgusting, it still makes me sick to think about it.
Also, OFFSPRING, please, ANCHOR BABIES, thank you!
monticup
I guess you and anonoymus live in your glass house when it comes to what is going on in the world.
From first hand experience and knowledge I can tell you about bankruptsy fraud, money laundering, murder, tax evasion and immigration fraud in the Korean community in Annandale. If you think it is limited to just there then you must believe in the Easter Bunny.
Yes they have gangs but they are older not teenagers. Yes you do pay for what they do and right here in PWC. As I keep bring up everytime you go to the dry cleaners you pay extra high prices to the Korean Dry Cleaners Assoc because of your BOCS. Do you believe that all you pay to them is reported as income ? Maybe you do not believe in the american system of free enterprise but I do. Check with the Code Enforcement office of Fairfax County and see just how much of a problem they have with the Koreans obeying the laws of Fairfax.
I have no problem with English as the official language but then you can hardly find an english sign in Annandale. If you think it can not happen here then think again. When you have a narrow view of what the problem is you can not see the big picture. I thought is was interesting that in the debate this week that Lingamfelter said he did not think it was a good idea to go after the business man for hiring illegals for job are what we are trying to bring into the county.
If you think that racial profiling does not happen think again but as I have said before different people have different right per the BOCS actions in PWC. Stewart can not solve any problems so he has to create discent to divert thinking away from the long term problems of PWC.
I have given solutions and brought up real problems that cost each and every one in PWC. Just put people on the street with jackets selling ” ICE ” and you might have a lot of people on the move.
you asked
What’s with the red herring? Think we’re stupid?
There is no red herring and it does not take much thought to understand what you are.
Let see when you get on it your BOCS does not and never will but you will pay for it each and every day.
“When the Koreans of Annandale begin to cause as much trouble and cost the taxpayers as much as the Hispanics, then we’ll be on it.”
Bob, did you sign the petition yet? You are either for helping us solve the problem or you are part of the problem!
Bob, tell me how multiculturalism (which promotes divisions based on ethnic lines) is a good thing? Afterall, the “enclave” you refer to is part of that movement???
Surely Bob, if that “enclave” subscribed to the American melting pot concept and integrated with everyone else would these issues you describe still exist?
Greg L
I don’t whine to anyone. I have no problem is stating what is going on and what is wrong and give solutions to problems that have not been solved in 30 years.
There is a lot that can be done at state and local levels but selling out to the Korean Dry CLeaning Assoc. to keep fix price dry cleaning out of PWC is wrong. The fact that we are paying some 50% more on each article of dry cleaning every day does not seem to bother you one bit. Why don’t you get on the BOCS to get the changes in zoning that was proposed by the staff, which was a good one, adopted.
Lets see you do something positive to help the citizens of PWC.
“there is little that can be done at the state and local level.”
There is a lot that can be done at the local level but most people just accept what the government dishes out rather then standing up for their rights.
that’s a pretty good idea…get some blue jackets and a few coolers and we can sell cups of ICE on the street near 7-11. Should have them running like the cockroaches they are.
another “having fun with illegals” joke would be to just yell “la migra” at the top of your lungs (or with a bullhorn) near the 7-11, watch them scatter.
If they are not doing anything on that street corner at least they can be used for a little comic relief.
Lafayette,
you show much more restraint than I…I’ve had major issues with the emergency rooms (Potomac Hospital) and illegals when my children were sick a couple times.
If I were in an accident and the illegals were sitting next to me I likely would beat them to holy hell and give them really good reasons to get admitted immediately.
I walked out of potomac hospital on one occasion and my child got admitted immediately to a military hospital due to extreme sickness, she only got worse by waiting behind all the illegals and this cost her 2 days admission which for a two year old is pretty scary.
my second instance at the hospital I had to complain and basically state that my son’s illness was worse than all the illegals sitting in the waiting room. I got hold of a supervisor there (a doctor I think) and my son was admitted immediately but I should not have had to compete with the illegals there.
Personally, I dont think they deserve routine medical care other than vaccinations unless they can demonstrate financial responsibility of some sort. I also dont think they deserve to go to our schools. Start shutting off all the freebies to them and they’ll stay were they belong, back in their own country.
Claire, the response to your treatise is really quite simple…requirements for a driver’s license in this state include LEGAL residency. Not all states do. The court ruling is not applicable. With regard to your other objections:
“In addition, someone who is on the street and not in a car, or who is a passenger in a vehicle, and who is lawfully stopped and detained may not be compelled to give more than his name.”
There was nothing in the proposal about checking “someone who is on the street,” but with regard to passengers in a vehicle, it is VERY appropriate if the driver is found to be without a license. Are you proposing that the police impound all vehicles of driver’s without licenses and send their passengers hoofing it home? That would be the effect if the police could not check for driver’s licenses among passengers, making sure that there is a legal driver in the vehicle able to drive it home (theoretically to the vehicle’s home).
I’m getting so fed up with the apologists stretching law and logic to the breaking point trying to justify their own twisted position. There has NEVER been anything humane or reasonable in allowing the problem to reach these proportions! And it is BECAUSE it has reached these proportions that it has become as emotional an issue as it has…and that is doing NO ONE any favors, particularly the illegal alien community!
Clair,
I thought you said you were never going to post on here again. Though, I suppose then you would be doing your job…
I would simply say to all of your “concerns” to ask a simple question of everyone, are you an illegal alien. I believe it is pretty standard ops that cops ask and or run names of people they stop of they have outstanding warrants. Does that mean they believe everyone they stop is wanted? No, but it is good policy and only takes a minute or two. So, what is wrong with an additional question.
Because as you say, not everyone has a DL, or uses it.
That sould have said, I suppose then you would not be doing your job…
I agree with Bob Wills in that “price fixing” is very definitely a very big issue (I thought it was illegal)…but it is not the issue under debate. I also agree that the illegal alien issue should not only address Hispanics, but should address ALL illegal aliens (what about the Russians…most vicious crime syndicates this country has ever seen), and most of us do not view it as purely an Hispanic issue. This is an issue involving ALL illegal aliens who should be held to the rule of law, and that’s the bottom line!
AW,
The problem is the illegal alien supporters have made the overall illegal immigration issue into an anti-hispanic issue. As I posted the other day, the media always seems to focus on illegal hispanics and their difficult lives, and how those that are trying to fight illegal immigration are just picking on hispanics.
I also agree with the dry cleaner issue, we went to the local shop, and they were going to charge $24.00 dollars for 8 shirts. We said thanks, but no thanks.
Bob Wills: You’re crying about dry cleaning? Dry cleaning?? Grow up, girlfriend. I pay $10 for 8 shirts, done perfectly.
Any illegal activity of any kind by any ethnic group is unacceptable. The problem is, the Koreans have not been clogging our schools, hospitals, roads and prisons. The ones with the high profile, high crime, high parasitic behavior and high numbers are the ones who get the attention. I don’t know what the Korean flag looks like but I sure see a lot of Mexican flags. And those blue and white ones–El Salvador, I think. In MY country.
COM
It looks like I finally got your attention and if anyone thinks that the Koreans are all “legal immigrants” think again. I do not care who anyone is as long as they obey the laws of this country and everyone is treated equaly. When we have specal interests costing us money backed up by the government then I will keep on bring this up until it is corrected. I have been in too many court cases with local government and won them to believe that they care about us one bit.
Will you get on the BOCS to adopt the zoning change as proposed by the staff so you have the right to go to a fixed price dry cleaner or will you do nothing? The current zoneing law limits a retail dry cleaner to less then 3,000 sq ft. What is wrong with a dry cleaner being 5-6,000 sq ft ?
AWCHANEY you may think that the dry cleaning issue is not about this debate but I believe it is on target. We are talking about those who take advantage illegaly of our rights and cost us money among other things.
When the MOB came to PWC to open up business in the 70’s most people had no idea that they were here. The money laundering and bankruptcy fraud cost us money. The fact they were brought into the country for ” Hit Man” jobs did not matter to many. Read a book ” The Good Guys” written by the FBI agents who applied the RICO laws to break up the five families in NY and you will learn just how they operated all over the country and in PWC as well. They were an interesting goup to deal with and yes I did have the FBI in to investigate them.
There are many ways to solve problems but the way that Stirrup and Stewart brought this about did not help the county at all. They could have accomplished all of this with out the fan fare and making PWC look less then professional. Stewart is not sure that he will get elected. Neither he or the state legislators have done anything to solve the transportation problems he had to create a diversion just before the election.
monticup said on 15 Sep 2007 at 2:02 pm:
Bob Wills: You’re crying about dry cleaning? Dry cleaning?? Grow up, girlfriend. I pay $10 for 8 shirts, done perfectly.
Well monticup you should tell COM where he can get his shirts done as he was quoted 24.00 for 8 shirts and that is the going price.
Obviously you do not know much about Restrain of Trade Laws nor do you believe that all people should have the same rights of free enterprise. That is an American foundation and right but then maybe only some rights should be allowed in your view.
The Patriot said on 15 Sep 2007 at 8:45 am:
Bob, tell me how multiculturalism (which promotes divisions based on ethnic lines) is a good thing? Afterall, the “enclave” you refer to is part of that movement???
Patriot
There is nothing good about the enclave in Annandale. Some of that segment will tell you that you as an American can not go into some of their businesses because it is limited to Koreans. One tenant even told the ABC inspector that she could not go into a “resturant”. she got the police and went in. Of course the gambeling machines were removed after the visit. Of course they whine and cry discrimination when any of the laws are to be inforced or legal contracts are enforced.
Asians (kids) learn English, don’t demand things printed in their languages and assimilate in while in public then withdraw within their families to preserve their customs. They also dominate most of the AP classes in the schools. Some older Asians never learn English but don’t have any expectation that we should learn to speak to them.
We are overrun with illegal immigrants, the majority making the most noise are Hispanic.
Wouldn’t a seat belt check (state law) allow officers to ask both the driver and the front seat passenger for a license?
Anyway, the purpose of local efforts is not to catch and return everyone that can be found, the purpose is to remove their reasons for coming here. The latter is less expensive, less combative and should be expedient. (Federal aid reductions to Mexico as recommend will not arrive in PWC in the next few weeks to pay policemen!)
If the locals do all they can to make it unattractive then the feds can focus on the borders and changing some of those really dumb (legal term) laws.
I do agree that getting the State legislature to adopt some laws regarding employers would be helpful; then again, public humiliation by listing those business that are “illegal friendly” would sure be quicker and would save us money in the long run.
Numbers USA has a listing of business that have pledged not to hire illegals by state. Let’s put some pressure on local employers and start with the builders and the Chamber of Commerce. I would sure feel safer eating in a resturant that uses e-verify particularly if this stop and check stuff escalates. In fact, we have reduced our dining out experience after some scare stories.
Bob,
I do not live in the County. I think it is foolish to not think there are not illegals of every ethnicity or race. Go into the NE and you will find lots of Irish and other illegal Europeans.
The price of dry cleaning? How did something this trivial enter a discussion of illegal aliens? If you are unable to find a good cleaner to launder your shirts for less than $1.50 each you certainly don’t have the mental acumen to participate in a debate on an important issue such as illegal aliens.
The real concern in this thread is the medical system. I have kids and can’t bear the thought of one of them needing emergency care and having to wait in line behind illegals seeking free, routine services in the emergency room. Does anyone know if the upcoming BOCS report identifies medical services as an area that can be denied to illegals? Our only moral responsibility should be a humanitarian action to prevent a critically ill or injured person from dying. I’m sure any of us would render aid as best we could at an accident scene without asking about the victim’s immigration status.
Beyond such critical care, no one here illegally should receive any medical services. Any illegal trying to obtain such services should be deported. People should have access to medical care, but medical care paid for by themselves or their own societies. The American middle class does not owe services to anyone from anywhere in the world who manages to sneak in here.
By the way, have a look at Chief Deane’s report, which is linked in an earlier post. He attaches a copy of a report by the International Association of Chiefs of Police that defines “illegal aliens” as, “The official term in legislation and the border patrol for a person who has entered the country illegally and is deportable or is residing in the United States illegally after entering legally (for example, using a tourist visa and remaining after the visa expires).” I doubt that even this documentation will make the politically-correct leftists at the MJM stop editing letters to the editor. Journalism should be about facts rather than promoting an agenda, but we see where that’s gone.
“Does anyone know if the upcoming BOCS report identifies medical services as an area that can be denied to illegals?”
I don’t believe that they can, Concerned…but there is nothing anywhere that says that a hospital emergency room cannot triage non-critical “emergencies” to the very bottom of the list, and behind other emergencies that come in. It’s funny how they seem to have no problem doing that with the average citizen anyway. I guess the illegals must have some sort of special privileges as far as the hospitals are concerned. Perhaps that issue should be addressed to them in no uncertain terms. Most, if not all, depend upon public funds and/or private contributions…it would be a shame if they dried up.
Did I ever relate my own experience in a hospital emergency room after an automobile accident, which very much relates to this issue? Probably not, so here it is.
I was in an accident (not the driver) where I was the only one injured. We were T-boned where I was sitting (back seat behind the driver) and I found myself with a full-sized van practically in my lap. My left side was severely injured (or at least it felt that way) and I was hit hard enough (as I was told later) that my heart, in all probability, was jolted and I was unable to breathe for a time. I was taken to the local hospital (if you are ever in the area of New Hanover Hospital near Wilmington, NC…DEMAND to be taken to South Carolina, especially if you are injured or even dying!) and, after 8 HOURS of multiple tests (including multiple x-rays and 2 CAT scans), they told me that nothing was broken but they wanted me to stay for two days, for observation. Very strange. Needless to say, I wasn’t about to do that (we were only visiting), and they released me. Now, what was really going on?
Minus those extra two days (which was obviously when they intended to treat me after more thousands of dollars worth of tests) this whole episode cost about $20,000 (that’s just the hospital, not including the car, and I saw a doctor for about five minutes), for which the insurance (combination of health and automobile) paid…and they wanted more. When they wheeled me between the examination room and the various tests, it looked like I was in a third world country with people lining the halls from the overflow I saw through a doorway of endless humanity. I had to wonder how many of those people I was paying for, and couldn’t even take the deduction.
And now, the epilogue: I did, in fact, wind up with a dislocated shoulder (I was never seen by an orthopedist) and I most likely had either bruised, or even broken, ribs (for weeks after, I had difficulty breathing if I moved wrong or lay on my left side…and I’d hear a crunching sound) and, needless to say, healing has been very slow and painful…and this happened in May of 2006. They hit our insurance for so much money for what was obviously reported as “nothing” (or no injuries) that it was canceled, and totally confirmed my opinion that homeopathic and holistic medicine has it all over MDs (being sarcastic, although I’ve only ever trusted a very few doctors in my entire life, and those are either dead or retired).
You can come to your own conclusion regarding this incident. You might want to note, there was no delay in getting me into a treatment room, but there was lots of waiting after, and in between all those tests. No one from my family was allowed to be with me during all this, though I asked (like they’d have been any help…I’m the assertive one in the family and I was in no shape). I believe, ultimately, that this must be addressed to the individual hospitals themselves. I’m quite certain that our hospitals in PWC are not as bad as that one…but, consider, North Carolina laid out a major red carpet for illegal aliens long before we did here in Virginia.
Oh, by the way…did I mention that that van was full of Hispanics?
Concerned and AWCheney,
The illegals sure do have special privileges, they have the government paying for their food, housing, health care, etc.
I have a friend that works in the ER at PW Hospital, she says well over half of the patients they see are sick with non-emergency illness/injuries. The illegals are treating the ER as if it were a clinic, or should I see free clinic. That’s right the free clinic is on Thursdays at the Health Dept.. The services are available at 6pm, and the line starts forming as early as 10am, usually a decent size line by noon. Now, I ask this, how sick can you be if you are able to stand outside in ANY kind of weather? I do mean rain, snow, sleet, sun, and humidity.
ER is EMERGENCY ROOM, not clinic or doctor’s office. The hospitals should be able to turn people away without true emergencies.
Free healthcare for illegals, woohoo! No wonder the illegal aliens don’t want to leave–they must think they died and went to heaven. I wonder why Mexico, Honduras, etc. are incapable of providing modern health care, education and all the other good things that their citizens come HERE for. What is wrong with them? (Besides corruption) Is it that they are a hunter-gatherer society? I don’t think they have any literary, scientific, medical or technological achievements to speak of, do they?
I have been to Annandale. Seems like it was full of Hispanic illegals and Muslims. At least I think I was in Annandale, maybe it was Falls Church.
Bob Wills: I think we can all agree that the main problem is our southern border where Mexicans, Guatemalans, and other Central Americans AND ATMs can walk or swim into our country. Why do you insist on redirecting the issue to Korean immigration?
Unless it’s seriously life threatening I’m taking my family to FT. Belvoir for any emergency care, it’s a bit more of a drive but at least I’ll get seen immediately. Back when I first arrived I wasnt familiar with the area and didnt know that option existed for me. I have not been to potomac since.
I dont see a flood of illegals sitting around belvoir that’s for sure and I get first rate service.
Illegals clog up just about everything. Anytime you introduce an alien species into another ecosystem you have problems. I submit the snakehead fish as an example or Boa constrictors released into the florida everglades. Illegal aliens are no different. Countries are not equipped to deal with them on a mass scale and should not have too. That’s why there are borders and they should be enforced.
I still dont see why others have arguments with this, it boggles my mind.
Also, how about the free truck from the library? It seems only hispanics read books, since the truck is covered in writing that is in spanish. I guess I have just not traveled the roads enough in this area to see the library truck that is covered in writing that is in English.
Josh,
The only reason we have arguments(short ones based on how the pro-illegals run from this blog) is because people who support illegals are for the most part self loathing, and they believe America is wrong and thus we must make up for that wrong by being a door mat to illegals.
Josh: I love your alien species analogy. Excellent.
Citizen: Most of the illegal aliens are illiterate and uneducated. I doubt they can read Spanish. They don’t even speak it properly. I suspect their mestizo language has an “oral tradition” only.
Monticup,
You are exactly right. With that in mind, we should expect them to enter the above ground work force, and expect them to pay taxes.
“Oh, by the way…did I mention that that van was full of Hispanics?”
And because of that they were illegals and since then you hate all Hispanics, right AWCHENEY?You redneck apologists are funny. You come up with all these stories of suffering bthat clearly say that you need therapy
See…nowhere did I say that any of the people were illegal aliens. YOU people, anonymous, are the “racists” of the issue, perpetually making assumptions of facts not in evidence. I don’t know if all the people in the story I related were illegal, and the only time I even mentioned Hispanics was that they filled the van, which was absolutely true. You made all your own assumptions…I only related the facts. Man, did you step into it!
BTW, is it possible to be a redneck if you are a naturalized citizen? I don’t remember anything like that in Jeff Foxworthy’s “You Are A Redneck If” chronicles.
Correction, I did mention illegal aliens ONCE…a fact clearly in evidence, often cited, that NC is far friendlier to illegal aliens than is Virginia.
AW: You should feel free to mention illegal aliens as often as you like–after all, they ARE illegal. I call illegal aliens “illegal aliens” because that is the correct term for them. When I see a van with NC plates full of Hispanics, I think illegal aliens. It’s called deductive reasoning.
I just stated the facts monticup, making no assumptions. I personally feel that the facts speak for themselves, and then WHO is it that makes the assumptions…a racist anonymous illegal alien apologist who calls everyone on the other side of the issue a redneck. I believe he/she made my point extremely well without my sinking to his/her level.
“I wonder why Mexico, Honduras, etc. are incapable of providing modern health care, education and all the other good things that their citizens come HERE for. What is wrong with them?”
Widespread lead poisoning would be my guess. Every few months there’s another story about lead-tainted Mexican candy that got imported into the USA. One would have to assume that lead-tainted candy is widely available in Mexico.
They also use lead salts (Azarcon, Greta) as a folk remedy for stomach upset. That’s right, they consume lead compounts intentionally.
See http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/00000164.htm for more information on lead-based folk remedies used by Mexicans.
Oh, by the way, I don’t suppose I should have to mention it, but I will anyway: Lead poisoning has a deleterous effect on neurological development.
MP Resident: That widespread ingestion of lead explains a lot. What century are they living in?
Citizen of Manassas:
When you say that I said that I wouldn’t come back to BVBL, I think that you are referring to a prior thread where I said that I didn’t plan to engage further on that thread. When I think that I can add some substance to the discussion, you’ll see me post again, but I won’t make it a habit to respond to your posts, because, as I’ve said before, you are entitled to your opinions which don’t command a response.
AWCheney:
Like it or not the constitution protects us all from being stopped by the police (in our cars or on our streets) without probable cause to believe (or at least reasonable suspicion) that we are committing or have committed a crime (or a traffic infraction when on the road). And, even when we are stopped legally, the constitution protects us all from having to give the police any information other than our name (or show our driver’s license if driving).
“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Benjamin Franklin
We can secure our borders and reform the broken immigration system without sacrificing what it means to be American.
But, it will take more than yelling and comparing immigrants to alien species and assuming that everyone who is in a hospital waiting room who looks Hispanic is not lawfully present or that everyone who lives in North Carolina who is Hispanic is not lawfully present. In other words, it will take common sense and right reason on _both_ sides of the debate, and, yes, it will take some measure of compromise.
And, before you all go off on one of your “criminal alien apologist” rants at me, I want to repeat something that I’ve said before on this blog (sorry all of you who hate repetition):
I am not a proponent of amnesty. I am a proponent of constructing a path to legalization for those immigrants in this country without authority who have not committed a crime or reentered following deportation. Webster’s defines amnesty as the act of an authority by which pardon is granted to a large group of individuals. I challenge you to find any place in which I have advocated that anyone receive a pardon for past immigration violations. The path to legalization that I support requires sanctions in the form of fines for anyone who has violated immigration laws (as well as payment of any back taxes owed). That is not amnesty. Just as it is not amnesty when a person voluntarily pays a fine upon receiving a summons for a misdemeanor.
Sounds a lot like amnesty to me. When we disregard the unlawful acts of others, no matter how many supposed hurdles we put in place as an alternative to holding them accountable to the law, I call that amnesty. It is effectively a pardon, albeit with some marginal cost.
All it does is encourage more illegal aliens. We’re in this mess now because we gave amnesty in 1986 and increased the number of illegal aliens to at least 12-20 million from 2 million in the process. We repeat this mistake, and the next time we revisit this we’ll have 50-80 million illegals, or more.
It’s crazy. Claire, you’re in a fantasy world to think this works at all.
But Greg…..the illegal alien apologists consider themselves to be “global citizens” (vice American citizens). That is a major problem. This is why they argue against the American melting pot and have dreams of free-flowing open borders!
Patriot: It’s the “One World” crowd–the United Nations, World Bank, EU, NAU. That’s why the illegal aliens are trained to say, “So what if I don’t have documents, I’m still a human being.”
As if US citizenship is merely a piece of paper. These “one-worlders” want to seize and redistribute the wealth of the US to the third world.
Claire,
OK. So in other words, you have decided that you will just ignore facts, and chalk them up to opinions, rather then admit you are wrong and answer simple questions.
Yup, the typical liberal mind set. I thought you liberals loved diversity? Though I guess not a diversity that counters what y’all say is the truth.
Claire,
I know I have asked this of others who support illegals, and I still have yet to get a response. So, I don’t know why I keep asking them. Maybe I just like to see y’all run and hide.
Exactly what is the line you have in mind when you say you want to provide a path of legalization for those illegals who have not re-entered the Country after being deported?
Under your plan would those illegals who have committed ID fraud, tax fraud, work fraud(working without authorization is a crime), purchasing documents on the black market, obtained documents by lying about their illegal status, etc be eligible for amnesty?
At what point would you stop allowing for such transgressions?
“Like it or not the constitution protects us all from being stopped by the police (in our cars or on our streets) without probable cause to believe (or at least reasonable suspicion) that we are committing or have committed a crime (or a traffic infraction when on the road).”
Nobody is disputing that, Claire…you’re just throwing that out to cloud the issue.
With regard to my experience in that NC emergency room, YOU are the one who has turned the phrases “a third world country” and “a sea of humanity” into “…everyone who is in a hospital waiting room who looks Hispanic is not lawfully present or that everyone who lives in North Carolina who is Hispanic is not lawfully present.” You, as anonymous before you, have made my point, in that it is not WE who constantly assume every comment in an “illegal alien” thread is about Hispanics. As I said in my original comment, “You can come to your own conclusion regarding this incident,” and you did.
AW:
You introduced the idea that illegal immigration was the “cause” of what you experienced in a North Carolina hospital and that the “third world country” was a reflection of the presence of illegal immigrants with this concluding remark: “I’m quite certain that our hospitals in PWC are not as bad as that one…but, consider, North Carolina laid out a major red carpet for illegal aliens long before we did here in Virginia.”
Citizen:
My path to legalization would not be available to anyone arrested or convicted of committing a crime in this country. Stats on illegal aliens now in prison show that most have been incarcerated either for immigration violations or for identity fraud and related issues.
Claire