The Illegal Alien Lobby Gets Dumber
By Greg L | 15 September 2007 | Illegal Aliens, Manassas City | 157 Comments
Once again, someone in the illegal alien lobby failed to figure out what jurisdiction he was in. This picture was taken at the corner of Liberty and Prince William Streets in the City of Manassas, and is a thirty foot canvas attached to the sole remaining wall of a house undergoing demolition. This long persisting eyesore of a property in the heart of Manassas has managed to transform itself into an even bigger eyesore. It also was previously an overcrowded house, before there was a fire, widely rumored to be harboring illegal aliens.
Now it looks like a graffiti billboard protesting something that didn’t even happen in Manassas. How stupid can you get?
If you read this ranting diatribe, apparently there’s a lot more room for stupidity. Yes, we call those who break laws criminals. If a criminal happens to “even clean your shoes”, he’s still a criminal. But Manassas residents, who are living in homes that were built by Americans long before there was an illegal alien problem, who cut their own yards and clean their own houses, and even include people who have fought and died in Iraq (PFC Colin Wolfe comes to mind), all managed to do so without the assistance of those who snuck across our borders, bought fake identity documents, overcrowded our neighborhoods, jammed our schools with limited english proficiency students, and used our hospital emergency rooms as a free medical service using fake names. Somehow, during that time we built our community, and even managed to put people on the moon. How all that happened without illegal aliens, well, these folks just don’t seem to grasp.
Now we’ll find out what the penalty is in the city’s zoning ordinances for erecting a billboard in the heart of Manassas City without a permit. I hope it’s a big one.
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Prince William County is NOT Racist to Hispanics as it has nothing to do with them.
Illegal aliens are the problem.
They dont pay taxes, they dont do the jobs we want them too as this is a farce. If they built our beautiful homes it’s because unscrupulous businessmen hired them. we respect that their brothers and sons are dying in iraq, but so are ours. That doesnt make them legal. We are not separating their families, they are. Illegal is Illegal and they dont deserve a pass just because they are here.
Just because they want to work doesnt make it legal, they have no relation to slavery, mexicans did kill american indians and they ARE criminals if they are illegal.
They are not the working force of america, if they are illegal they are criminals and deserve the wrath of law rather than respect.
This person obviously didnt do any american indian research (or any research) before he did this.
No ILLEGALS, built the house I live in. My husband mows the lawn, I clean the house. Oh, and I never owned slaves. This is one of the worst displays of illegal supporters I’ve ever seen.
Greg L,
I seriously doubt there’s going to be a big fine or one at all. I think $1,000.00 fine would be fair for a sign without a permit, and this size.
This is SICKENING. I sure hope this gets removed ASAP!!
I wonder who was behind this.
Josh
What makes you so sure it’s a he? There are a couple of she’s that come to mind as possibilities. Illegal supporters are unfortunately out there. They too must go along with the ILLEGALS, and let’s not forget the businesses that hire ILLEGALS.
Trust me my forty year old Hyltonian, was not built by any of these ILLEGAL ALIENS!!
“What makes you so sure it’s a he? ”
Good God, should he have used “s/he”?
IT COULD HAVE BEEN AN “IT.” THERE ARE A “FEW” OF THEM AROUND IN THE ILLEGAL COMMUNITY!
I forget to be gender correct sometimes, insert he/she/it where applicable.
I don’t get the paying taxes part. Do illegals pay property taxes to fund the school and the extensive ESL training that Prince William Public Schools?
The “separating our families” phrase gets under my skin. The United States does not deny any illegal from taking their children with them when they are deported back to their homeland. Illegal aliens are more than welcome to take all their anchor babies with them.
I saw Cousin IT the other day up by Five Guys near Battlefield Ford. Wow!
Lafayette, why do you feel the need to remove my comment? I thought this was a public forum open to all for enlightenment. Constructive ideas do not grow out of a vacuum of opinions. What you seem to find sickening, is establishing a true diplomatic diologue of round table polite discussion.
Josh, I beg to differ with you.
Mike, in answer to your question I refer you to various sources: article:
Social Security paid and never collected:
New York Times 4/5,6/2005 – fake IDS used give six billion dollars annually to social security.
Boston Globe (April 12th, 2006) article by Derrick Jackson
which references these figures from Standard & Poor’s which referenced these figures the prior week.
I’ll bet it won’t be long before some liberals come up with a plan to give social security to EVERYBODY that happens to be here.
I would classify Ricardo Juarez as an “IT” for sure.
josh:
“I would classify Ricardo Juarez as an “IT” for sure.”
There ya go! IT = “itinerant trespasser”
Well, I pay Social Security and have paid for decades and I will never get the benefits from it. Why should the illegals? I don’t fall for that phoney argument that illegal aliens pay into SS anyhow. That is just propaganda from the “no borders” crowd.
CJC I don’t think you understand. They cannot collect on the social security because it is withheld on the pay under a false Soc. Sec. #. Therefore, the money goes to all the legal folks.
All: Let forget the cliche labels - liberal - conservative - whatever. We will all benefit more from not bucketing our views into stereotypes. The sterotypes just rationalize not have open discussion.
Mike - If you read the article from Standard & Poor’s you will see that researchers at S&P recommended years ago that the federal gov’t find a way to refunnel that pool of billions back down to the local governments. The catch 22 is that Social Security cannot be touched. But the feds don’t want to give up that money and the interest it earns.
Josh - what’s that stuff about ‘mexicans killing american indians’ who said anything about that?
Lafayette - you really need to remember that I am entitled to my opinion, as are you. If I choose to support or not support illegals - unfortunately for you - that is my right. The same right that allows you to have your opinion. Freedom has it’s price. I guess your price is listening to me. Sorry you feel that way. It just reinforces why I haven’t the patience to deal with narrow minded folks that feel threatened by educating themselves - those who suggest throwing legal citizens, as myself, out of the country for having differing opinions.
Those of you who do not and never have used illegals in their homes, I do apologize. However, I see tons of folks every day who do just that.
RUThayer, if 6 billion dollars is paid annually to the SSA with fake IDs, what about other payroll taxes? There are also state and federal taxes. Do these people using fake IDs claim the correct number of dependents on the w4 and allow the government to withhold their fair share? Or do they claim an excess of dependents so they end up not paying any state or federal taxes?
RUThayer,
look at the sign…..it says that we i.e. americans, killed american indians..however if you do your research you’ll notice the vice (as well as the former) is also true. And if you “beg to differ” on that, know that I’m american indian.
I dont care if you “beg to differ” anyway, any supposed stats you throw mean squat. For every illegal alien giving money to social security and everything else, there are likely 10 that dont pay anything into the system by doing day labor work under the table.
as far as being educated, before you start slinging turds know your audience. Anyone could have pulled the dribble you posted up on google in 5 minutes (about the time it took me to find it) and I can find a number of other stats to counter those.
Sals: most definitely they do pay. I refer you to the ‘New mexico Fiscal Policy’ site wherein they calculated total taxes paid by undocumented workers in state income taxes at $10.1 million and Sales and Property taxes at $59.675 million. These figures are for one year only.
Josh: your a fiesty fellow aren’t you. Yes, I did google the information. I don’t pretend to be a walking encyclopedia. By the way, my husband is also Native American along with Mexican. The last full blooded Apache was my childrens great grandmother who was a wonderful lady I had the fortune of knowing in Tuscon. You don’t need to be so aggressive in your tone.
RU,
Do you have a brain? If so, where did it go? If they want to remain with their family they should have stayed in their Native Country, and not broken the law to get here. If they wanted a good job, they could have come here legally. Yet, they did not. If they hate this Country so much, and hate the way they live, the path leads South as much as it led North.
The fact of the matter is that most people cut their grass, clean their homes and shoes. Illegals make up less than 5% of the total work force, and that is from those that support illegals. So, tell us again how much we would suffer without illegals.
Tell us again how all of those millions of “workers” who line up in parking lots around the nation without having to fill out any paper work pay taxes?
Tell us again why if they are here and willing to pay taxes, why do they not take advantage of places such as man power, labor finders, and the Virginia Employment center?
Also tell us, if they want to play by the rules, why did they come here illegally?
RU,
I am a Native American too. Yet, I do not have a drop of American Indian blood in me. So, what is this Native American stuff you are talking about?
Josh,
Well, I sure didn’t mean to stir all of that up with “could’ve been a she”.. When I said she a was think of Nancy L. and Teresita J.!!!
Gender on bvbl is like legal status. We don’t know who’s male and who’s female, as the same thing could be said about being legal and who’s illegal.
This “billboard” should be considered a HATE CRIME! Fine these people and charge them!
corr: FIND
RU,
Of course I’m feisty, I have Navajo blood running through my veins and I’ve a got a type-a personality courtesy of 16 years in the military. And,
I was born and raised in Arizona so I’ve seen first hand from a young child how illegal aliens can affect our “ecosystem” and I’m not very happy about seeing those same effects here.
Lafayette,
I figured that was what you meant! I’m not exactly sure what Nancy L. and that other woman are, amoeba or some other one-celled organism. I wouldnt go so far as applying a gender too them, that would imply they had brains.
citizen of manassas: I provided you tax information in addition to following internet edicate of polite discussion. I did not deserve the defensive responses and angry tones that came from you and Josh.
That is the biggest crime of all. That legal citizens scream rather than discuss, thereby preventing any productive resolution to the problem. Just remember rudeness is the veil of ignorance. Don’t worry, I won’t threaten anyone’s redneck views. I entered this blog to open my eyes to differing opinions. Sorry some of you are threatened by that. That is the image of this blog you perpetuate in the public by your rude tone.
To all others, I thank you for your time and banter. Perhaps we can meet up in a more dignified forum some day- where people are polite. Unfortunately for Greg, this blog attracts way too abusive angry folks to be productive.
RUThayer
To answer your question “why do you feel the need to remove my comments”. I believe we all are entitled to our opinions. You’ve stated your opinion as you claim, and I’ve stated my displeasure with your comments. My comments were against the banner. If you support what was on the banner, then my comments were about YOUR opinion.
I have lived my entire life on the same block in WestGate, next door to legal citizens, 2 german ladies, and yes a Guatamalen family. Come to this country LEGALLY, and we welcome you.
RU Nancy L, Ricardo J, John Steinbach, or Teresita J? You sure like you could be one of them!
That’s right I’ll have to listen to your comments as you will mine. I haven’t seen you on bvbl, are you new? If you are go back and read my postings. I am LOUD AND PROUD!!!!!!!
Or maybe your not new, and have chosen to use a new name?
I’d like to know.
Ru,
How do illegals who hang out and piss in parking lots, pay taxes? I know, they do not pay taxes, so any stupid “numbers” you come up with are wrong.
It is not being rude pointing out facts. Again, you are like all the other illegal supporters who come on this blog, once you are cornered with the facts, your attempt to muddy the water.
Funny how you can’t stand folks going after illegals, and you even use the race card, but you sure don’t mind using it when your silly little arguments fail.
]
You can’t answer the questions asked of you, so you run and hide, just like your fellow illegals.
Again, I will use plain English, and keep the questions simple so that you can understand.
If illegals are so pissed off, why did they come here in the first place? And, why don’t they leave?
Who exactly forced them to come here?
If they are pissed at being in the “shadows” why did they not come here legally like so many immigrants before them?
RU’s resolution to the illegal alien problem would be amnesty. No need to call names, RUThayer. Can’t you see that you’re the angry nasty one? Your eyes might be open but they’re not seeing.
RU -
AND since we didn’t force them to come here, why didn’t they stay in THEIR country trying to fix the problems there?
And if they are able to cheat OUR system, why don’t they stay in THEIR country and find a way to cheat the system THERE??????
Honestly I think the days of being “nice” are over. The country has been nice to the illegals for too long and look at whats happened. I welcome additional viewpoints and honest, educated discussion. Even if they dont agree with my views.
However I do get a bit disturbed when people jump in and start going for in the kill without looking around and seeing what argument is about.
let me break down MY view:
The illegal lovers want amnesty i.e. a free ride for committing illegal activity. In addition they feel the borders should be open and free (a free for all).
The anti-illegal immigration folks want the law enforced,
and the violators shipped back home never to return (unless legal)
My personal story is that I have been a victim of illegal alien activity (my SSN was stolen) and have seen the negative effects they have caused most of my life, growing up in Central Arizona to my home here in Woodbridge, VA. It’s only getting worse and I’ve seen it get worse in the 5 years I’ve lived here so I dont buy that bull from people saying it’s “not that bad”, it’s bad trust me..read the paper.
I’m sure most of the anti-illegal immigration crowd has there own story as well, some probably much worse than my own. I’ve heard of car accidents, murders, rapes and everything in between from a variety of people.
Removing illegal aliens is a very good thing..
josh -
BINGO! Well stated.
RUThayer, I definitely would not take those figures as definitive proof that illegals pay their complete share of the tax burden. It is based on an estimate of sales tax and property taxes paid according to their estimated income. When it comes to state income taxes, they cut in half the figure they came up with because they do not know the level of compliance. They claim that illegals pay $1.814 million more in taxes than they use in K-12 education but fail to factor in the increased cost for ESL services. They do not include the $1523 Federal contribution when they multiply the per pupil cost. They also do not include the Free and Reduced Lunch cost which is available regardless of legal status. Then there is the cost to the medical system, the court system and the jails.
Josh
Tell it like it IS!!! Well said.
My stories with illegals all started 9/17/1993, when the admitted illegals rammed into the back of our car. I really couldn’t get too upset, I was pregnant afterall. Only 24 years old, first baby on the way, and my glasses were completely destroyed I couldn’t see a thing without thing. What a NIGHTMARE!!
If people don’t like the fact that we don’t like illegal aliens around here, you are more than welcome to leave. I don’t seem to remember an open invitation for illegal supporters, and I am sure that there are plenty of blogs full of the misinformation and communist/socialist propaganda that you illegal alien supporters love.
I’ve said this many times before we MUST roll up the “red carpet” and burn it. The time has come to make our county undesirable to ILLEGAL ALIENS. Look at where “NICE” has gotten us. No it’s time for ICE to help clean this place up.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!
corr
couldn’t see a thing without THEM.
I am SO glad that Prince William won’t be a Santuary for illegal aliens. When I drive around Manassas and shop in the stores, I am heartened to realize that soon in good time, the illegals will get the message that Virginia doesn’t want them here. Our entire state, one county at a time, will be standing up for what is right. Finally, our statemen hear our cry. Thank you all who have upheld the law and will enforce them. Thank you to Greg, Jackson, and everyone else who have been instrumental in this push. Without your push, Prince William County would be still status quo. Thank you for getting the ball rolling.
All I can say now is “Goodby Illegal Aliens”.
RUThayer said on 15 Sep 2007 at 7:22 pm:
“Sals: most definitely they do pay. I refer you to the ‘New mexico Fiscal Policy’ site wherein they calculated total taxes paid by undocumented workers in state income taxes at $10.1 million and Sales and Property taxes at $59.675 million. These figures are for one year only.”
Okay, how many illegals are in Virginia? You can’t tell us, because no one knows! So then how can you state that they are paying their share of taxes like it is fact? And as stated in an earlier post, many illegals STEAL SSN’s. That is a CRIME and should be punished not rewarded.
Also when you have many families living in one home, they are not paying their share of taxes to send their kid’s to school, and the use of public services.
I just don’t understand why illegal alien apologists excuse the behavior of illegal’s. You don’t seem to mind that when they steal someones identity they are ruining someone elses life.
You don’t seem to care that when they get behind the wheel and cause an accident they don’t have insurance or a drivers lisence. This alters the life of someone else when this happens.
But it’s okay because they pay taxes.
I just drove by this sign. It’s huge, the picture doesn’t show you how big it is. I wonder if they are rebuilding the house and this is the first side of the new and improved version?
Line Breaker, I was thinking the exact same things tonight as I drove home from the Hazleton, PA, area back into Manassas. It did my heart good to know of the tremendous progress we have made in such a short time.
Also, it is always a little shocking when you see something like the huge sign full of lies that continue to be told to the immigrants. It is about “ILLEGAL”. But then, one must realize that they are feeling the heat. That’s a good thing!
We must continue to look forward for the common good, and not just be “present tensers” (what’s in it for me now).
Thank you, HelpSaveManassas, PWC BOCS, Jackson Miller, et al.
RUThayer said on 15 Sep 2007 at 8:00 pm:
That is the biggest crime of all. That legal citizens scream rather than discuss, thereby preventing any productive resolution to the problem.
Your “productive resolution to the problem” means amnesty. Why not just come out and say it? Anything other than enforcement of the law and deportation = amnesty. Let’s call a spade a spade here. Freakin’ liberal wordsmiths…
I am n ot in favor of amnesty but so far nothing that you in your community or the locals governments have done have produced the real results.
Why?
Yiu keep focusing on the illegal aliens and forget the source of the problem: the employer.
I don’t hear you lament against the employer. The people you see in your neighboerhood are here for a reason. I cannot belive that all of them are just sitting there without doing anything.
Work to get the employer and not just a focus on influencing the local government. Herndon hasn’t been successfull and Hazleton wasn’t either. It is the same error of attacking the accident of the problem and not the cause.
I agree with RH that you enjoy posting here your pains against illegal aliens but you have a reality in your neighborhood that you cannot deny. You are the ones saying that you have mice at home. Wher i live fols I don’t have illegal aliens, rats, crime or anything bad. You have illegal aliens there because you are at the bottom. Sadly folks, you are the people that America forgot.
Social Security? The US has signed a “totalization agreement” with Mexico ensuring that Mexican illegal aliens get back what they paid into the social security system, even if under a stolen SSN.
Google the following
mexico totalization agreement
and read all about it.
Had to Say: No, it does not mean amnesty at all. It means the money held at higher government levels needs to be routed down to local levels. Your stolen credit is not from the illegal immigrants, it’s from your internet savy citizenry. Illegals only use the ssn to get employment.
Sals: Now it’s their not paying their complete share of taxes. Before everyone was accusing them of not paying ANY taxes. They know the level of compliance of those that have pay checks cut and that is where the New Mexico numbers came from. The reason it was cut in half is because the EMPLOYERS are keeping the other half. The other half is the employers’ share of FICA and MDCR. If I were you I’d stick to whatever you do and leave the accounting to professional accountants of organizations such as Standard & Poor’s that supply budgetary input to all levels of government. Those other items you mentioned are estimated and factored in other areas of the study.
Anon: It’s an open blog - I don’t need an invitation. DAAAAH!
Anonymous: you got it right. But remember when you go after the employers, the consumable spending will decline since people will pay more for babysitters etc., they’ll have less to put back into the economy. There’s the recession. You’re right it’s all about supply and demand.
Citizenofmanassas: I’m not running or hiding. Make up your minds - - half the blog tells me to leave the other half accuses me of hiding when I do. It’s just that your questions are so rudimentary– the answers are obvious — So, in plain english back to you. Please look up Native American in Merriam Webster and you will find ‘a member of any aboriginal tribe of the western hemisphere.’
1)They came to supply the demand and our government opened the doors in the 80’s to fill the jobs no one here wanted. (fast food chains, harvest crops, watch elderly in nursing homes, clean houses etc.) I was here then and I remember. 2)They don’t leave because the demand is still here for their services. 3)No one forced them to come here - they were invited by U.S. Government opening up the flood gates to fill the jobs. 4)INS for legal status has a five to seven year backlog of applications. That’s not a functional process.
Bottom line, the facts are in the statistics and the economic climate. Those that don’t pay taxes work for under minimum wage positions and the employers make a profit off of them. That profit is fed back into consumable spending in local economies. Money saved in one place is money spent elsewhere. The historical fact is it wasn’t a problem until they moved up the economic food chain. The conclusion is that you are at the bottom of the food chain or you would not care so much!
What I want to know is who, when, and how can we contact to get this sign removed? Does anyone know?
PWC Resident
I’m sure Greg L or some of the other fine folks with HSM have already contacted the proper parties to get the ball rolling with the removal of this sign. I still think we should express our displeasure of this nonsense to the City of Manassas to get this down ASAP.
Here’s a link to the numbers for the City of Manassas Zoning and it also has contact names and numbers. Hope this helps.
http://www.manassascity.org/index.asp?NID=33
What I do find fascinating in all of this is….the resolution and others like it use the terms “illegal immigration”, “illegal aliens”, etc. Nowhere do these resolutions use the terms “hispanic” or “latino”. With that said, why does it seem like the “hispanics” and “latinos” are the only ones demonstrating against these resolutions in full force? Look at the signs that are posted (particularly the new one we are looking at on this blog) and the people that show up to demonstrate around the country??? Where are the “others”?
What I do find fascinating in all of this is….the resolution and others like it use the terms “illegal immigration”, “illegal aliens”, etc. Nowhere do these resolutions use the terms “hispanic” or “latino”. With that said, why does it seem like the “hispanics” and “latinos” are the only ones demonstrating against these resolutions in full force? Look at the signs that are posted (particularly the new one we are looking at on this blog) and the people that show up to demonstrate around the country??? Where are the “others”?
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5136958.html
Regarding the article:
These people don’t have money for the medical (as stated in the article), but they are most likely on foodstamps, WIC, live in subsidized housing/bunk house conditions, possibly drive nice SUVs, and still have a nice sum of money to send back home south of the border! Why do I state the above, because I see this in our local community. Seriously, someone must be looking into this!
RUThayer,
I think your argument is a bit flawed. You mention the principles of supply and demand, however you did not mention the principle of Law.
That’s the operative word here, regardless of whether they are filling jobs that others supposedly will not do, they are here illegally. To the illegal alien apologists this is their central argument. It does not ever change, every single one of them uses it so it’s not new.
I remember as a kid working in a grocery store in arizona for a very low wage, it built character. I also remember mowing lawns as I had my own service as kid and did all the lawns in the neighborhood. Now my old neighborhood back home has lawn services with illegals doing the lawn service thus putting kids out of business.
There are always people willing to fill lower-wage jobs, the only problem is that now illegal aliens are filling the gap. I’m a big biology fan so bear with me..when you introduce an alien species into a foreign ecosystem bad things happen. Look at the snakehead fish, it was introduced to our area and is eradicating the local fish population. We can all agree that it’s not a good thing.
The illegals are doing the exact same thing, exploiting a gap. Remove the exploit and others will fill the gap. It make take a little time, but I’m sure we can bear it with no problem. America was built on ingenuity and determination so I have no doubt it can be done.
Josh
RE Josh’s first comment: I thought we long ago established that uninspected entrants do pay considerable sums in state and local taxes as well as social security. We also made it fairly clear that the lot of them aren’t “criminals” in any legal sense. If you want to use that word, you’ll pretty much have to apply it to most of the citizens of the United States, virtually all of whom have committed civil violations of the law at one time or another. Anyone who hasn’t picked up on the reality that we’re talking about an underground community with crime rates lower than the general population that contributes in state and local taxes either somewhat more or a little less than their overall costs to society (depending on the study) hasn’t been paying attention, is a slow learner, or just wants to bay at the moon rather than talk shop about a problem that needs to get fixed.
Once we get the silly-buggers ideas off the table (universal criminality and not paying taxes), then we can have a useful immigration debate. Among the legitimate questions are: How can we secure the borders for security purposes while promoting the economic benefits of immigration?; How can we return circularity to immigrant movements so the legitimate temporary/seasonal labor needs can be met without enlarging underground populations here?; How can we reach a legitimate tax/SS formula, either internally or by understandings with the countries of origin so that we are certain that immigrant populations are paying a fair share toward costs, but also receiving a fair share of benefits of the taxes they do pay?; How do we institute and maintain a meaningful registration/identification program that draws immigrants into the licensing and control processes that go with such daily matters as driving/banking/insurance/business licenses/housing;? How do we ensure that local impacts of federal immigration policy are accurately measured and, when negative, recompensed? Get to work on these types of questions, Josh and we’ll get somewhere. Maybe some of the other folks here will want to join a study group to work with you on this.
NovaScout,
people who illegally immigrate (regardless if they pay taxes) are illegal. If you dont agree with that then we have no further argument where there really is none.
Stop this “undocumented” garbage, there were not kidnapped and brought her without their knowledge, they came across full knowing their action was illegal. People who commit crimes are criminals so applying that term to them globally is absolutely correct.
The bottom line is that they need to be controlled and limited according to the law. The operative word is here is LAW, they have already committed a crime by coming in to the country, what’s to say they wont commit more?
If anyone should join a study group it’s you, I think I have it pretty much figured out. Remove the illegal aliens and keep them from returning and you remove the problems that you mentioned in your post. I think it’s sickening that you actually believe that dribble you post, I’m ashamed for my country that people such as you live here and advocate not following the law.
Agreed Josh. He and his ilk sicken me as well. His idea of a “useful immigration debate” is amnesty. Anything less than total enforcement of the law when it comes to employees and the employer is a copout and is amnesty. Libs always suggest that we should have dialogue over this issue but their idea of dialogue always means compromise which in turn always means amnesty. No dialogue and no amnesty. Enforcement or rioting are the only two choices when it comes to this topic, and I know many, many people that are leaning towards the latter due to the inaction of the government.
Dave B,
I totally agree, the public is ticked off to say the least that it’s gone on so long. People for the deportation of the illegals far outweighs the apologists.
The moment you grant amnesty is the moment this country turns into a third-world nation. I dont want to live here with illegal alien trash. I’ve lost any amount of sympathy I may have had for their plight.
RU,
Again Native American is a PC word just like “undocumented immigrant” They are called American Indians. Native implies they never immigrated to North America, which of course they did.
So, Americans do not work in fast food? Americans do not want to work in contruction jobs? What exactly do Americans do? I suppose when I travel all around the Nation, and I visit fast food places, hotels, etc, I just happen upon the only examples of where Americans will do those types of jobs?
Again, tell my how illegals who piss in parking lots pay taxes? How is it that illegals who live in overcrowded homes pay their fair share of taxes?
I am hardly at the bottom of the “food chain”. Though, I suppose I should not be suprised that a liberal elitist would have such an opionion about someone who is pissed off at the illegals.
We invite immigrants to come here legally, not illegally. So, again get it correct. The only thing I blame on the Federal Government is their lack of enforcement. Of course you can’t seem to blame illegals for coming here, another example of self-loathing. Why don’t you blame the real source of why illegals come here- their own Governments. If there were plenty of jobs in their Native Countries, illegals would have no reason to come here. Yet, their Governments realize it is easier to allow their people to leave then it is to enact real economic reforms.
Nova,
You still have not said how breaking the law and benefiting from it is a conservative value.
Illegal is illegal. What about those illegals that do not come here to work? How can we blame companies for those illegals?
These illegal alien apologists like RU like to change the subject away from the real issue which is: The massive transfer of the uneducated lowest classes from Mexico and Central America to the US. The corrupt governments there are simply shipping their problems over to here and get a big bonus–$$ sent home to prop up their economies. And because what we are getting are the dregs of society, we get the filth, crime, gangs and all the negatives the illegals carry with them. Remember when there were riots in Chiapas, Mexico? All those peasant rioters are now living here in the USA.
WE should be choosing who gets the privilege of living in our country.
URGENT
OK every Citizen you need to email or call our Senators on Monday as they are preparing to add two amendments that will benefit Illegal Aliens.The DREAM ACT which not only helps illegal children get in state college tuition our out of state citizens don’t get but opens the door to millions of Aliens and their families to become citizens since there is no age cap.
The second amendment is for AG workers who will be given amnesty and a path to citizenship,along with their families if they work in agriculture at slave labor prices for 3 years (does indentured servants ring a bell) and one amendment which bring more foreign legal workers (H-1B) into the US to take our jobs because they work for less money and don’t mind working 60 hr. weeks with no overtime pay.
It is time our congress worries and pays attention to the needs of their constituients instead of Illegal Aliens.Yet it seems getting these Illegal people citizenship is utmost in their mind at our expense ! If you Aren’t mad You Aren’t paying attention to the citizen abuse being done by our government!
Please join www.numbersusa.com and send faxes for FREE to your elected officials or better yet PHONE THEM MONDAY as Monday is when they will begin to debate these proposals which are being attached to the DOD (Dept.of Defense) bill.How sneaky can they get.They think we won’t be watching so they can pass these amendments which the american citizens do not want by Stealth since who would guess they would have the NERVe to attach amendments that have NOTHING to do with DOD spending !!
Dave B: So, you are now encouraging vigilante violance. “Enforcement or rioting are the only two choices when it comes to this topic, and I know many, many people that are leaning towards the latter due to the inaction of the government.” Why does that not surprise me.
NoVA Scout: You’re on the ball. But, trust me, no one here wants to study. They prefer to advocate vigilante violance. Because that was their pervasive goal all along. Judging from half the postings on this blog, I doubt they know how to read much less research or study.
I’d say that you are guilty of sweeping generalizations Thayer. Of course there is a great deal of anger over this issue…particularly for people such as Dave B (aka Parkd) who live right in the middle of it on a daily basis and have watched their own “American Dream” disintegrate right before their eyes. Why don’t you go back over the illegal alien threads and read some of what Dave has been experiencing? Are you at all familiar with the concept of empathy? I, myself, could not say that I would not be just as angry were I in his shoes.
Insofar as NoVA’s take on this issue, although he and I seldom disagree on most issues, we definitely must agree to disagree on this one. I feel that he is dead wrong, but as we have not had the opportunity to sit down and discuss each of our perspectives on it, I would not wish to castigate him out of hand for his take on the matter. I do not believe, however, that he is advocating for blanket amnesty. He is viewing it as a far more complex issue than merely “amnesty, yes/amnesty, no.” I must admit though, even realizing that it is a very complex issue, I am personally very much in the “amnesty, no” column. Maybe we can discuss it one day…rational debate is rather difficult in small sound bytes on a blog where responses are not possible in real time.
That is ridiculous. Why in the heck would so many people be advocating for policy reforms to help alleviate this problem if all they wanted to do was start taking the law into their own hands. What many of us here have done will help provide a responsible means for citizens to express their frustration.
You want to find someplace where actual vigilante actions have happened? Check out Maryland and DC, where until recently there hasn’t been a responsible venue for expressing concerns. In Virginia, where we’ve been working hard, there hasn’t been a single instance of so-called “vigilante justice” that I’m aware of. Should it ever happen, I am certain everyone here would immediately condemn it.
If you’d rather cut off the opportunity to express opinions and mobilize people to engage in the legislative process, you’d end up promoting the violence you claim to be opposed to.
Honestly, I think you’re more motivated with trying to characterize many of us here as something we’re not, rather than actually contribute to the conditions that would help further reduce the chances for unlawful behavior by those on any side of this debate. maybe I’m wrong, but that’s what it looks like to me.
Wow…
Now we are being accused of being uneducated! Better throw away those two Master’s degree’s I have and scuttle my attempt at a Phd since I’m obviously to stupid to read
Guess since we are not as “educated” as RU and Nova we are all just a bunch of idiots. This seems like par for the course with these people. You keep throwing up road-blocks in their argument and they fight for a little while then…oh your all just uneducated.
Seems like they all do this 100 percent of the time.
Actually, Greg, Thayer is just like those folks who bandy about the term “racist” indiscriminately when someone has a strong opinion on this issue. The only purpose for that is to heighten the emotional element (anger) rather than debating the issue rationally from varying perspectives (first-hand experience, for instance). Perhaps Thayer would like to see “vigilante violence,” which is why he and so many of his fellows love to stir the pot rather than offer a rational perspective.
As far as I’m concerned, there is nothing to “discuss”. Illegal means illegal. Enforce our laws, secure the border, deport those who are here illegally. This is not open to negotiation.
Actually Dave B. and Josh, I’m a conservative who is against amnesty. I’d prefer sealing the borders as tightly as possible, but making the process for coming in in a registered, countable, trackable way as easy as possible. I’dweed out the violent criminals (whether the crime was committed here or intheir home countries), sending them home (if they committed a crime here, punish them here and get compensation from their home government), imposing a monetary fine or penalty for the uninspected entry for the rest, putting those in a line for regularization behind all those who entered legally and speeding up the entire process a whole bunch.
Not saying you don’t have Masters’ degrees or PhDs or whatever, I’m just saying you said things that indicate you don’t know much about the immigration laws or the economic impacts of illegal immigration. If you know those things and said them anyway, then your problem is more substantial than ignorance. Just wanted to make sure you got the memo on net economic benefit and lack of criminality in crossing without going through a border checkpoint. It certainly is inconsistent with legal requirements, but it’s not criminal. If you don’t pick up on that fundamental point, you start out the discussion assuming that all uninspected entrants (that’s the legal term, guys - I didn’t make it up) are “criminals” and it distorts the policy process by having people think that someone who crosses the border without presenting appropriate papers is a “criminal” in the same sense as a bank robber. I know you don’t want that misimpression to gather steam. Loose use of the term also makes it more difficult to get a proper handle on a separate problem - illegal immigrants who indeed commit crimes once here. If they’re all “criminals” it minimizes the difficulty of knowing what to do with illegal immigrants who do commit violent crimes once they’re here. They appear to do so at a lower rate than the rest of us, but a stick-up is a stick-up, no matter who does it and we have to address that effectively.
I didn’t use the term “undocumented”, Josh, and have no problem with the term “illegal” or “unlawful” immigrants. I do have a problem with “criminal” (unless they are criminals - i.e., they have committed a crime).
So I think we’re all in general agreement, I’m just a little priggish about defined terms and facts. Bear with me.
CoM: As I’ve said before, this issue doesn’t appear to break along “liberal/conservative” lines. Most of what I see here bears any resemblance to the conservatism that has been my values framework since the early 1960s. Conservatives tend to prefer order, and there is considerable disorder in our federal immigration policies. So conservatives like me are pretty keen on federal immigration reform. But we also are constitutional sticklers and we are very suspicious of localities grabbing hold of issues that the federal government has sole authority to address. Of course, that local governments are under pressure to get involved in this issue is another reflection of the federal failure to act, and really illuminates the necessity of comprehensive federal action, real soon, like last spring if not earlier. Conservatives are also suspicious of laws that fly in the face of economic forces and suspect that such laws undermine society’s repsect for law and order. Right now, our immigration laws are completely inadequate to address the realities of the global economy. Need I say it again - we need federal immigration law reform. I suspect we all agree on that too. Enjoy a beautiful day if you live in the Mid-Atlantic.
Must we bear with you? Your long dissertations are too boring. Don’t you understand the value of parsimony?
I’ll say it again–we do NOT need federal immigration law reform. We need to enforce the existing laws.
We are constantly told “Our immgration system id Broken and needs fixed” when the truth is “Our Immigration Laws have been ignored and not enforced”.So I think being skeptical of a Immigration overhaul is wise thinking.
Until I am sure or current laws are being enforced,our borders are secure and those who have broken our laws are removed I will no longer trust our federal government on this issue.
A large number of Illegal immigrants are committing a felony offenses by using stolen identities or false documents so yes they are criminals.My identity was stolen and it has been a nightmare trying to get my credit straighten out and to get charge cards canceled that I neither authourized or intend to pay.I have heard the excuses “I was just trying to feed my kids” and many other excuses.If a citizen committed identity theft or stole someones credit card and told the judge :I was just trying to feed my kids” do you think the judge would be understanding and tell them to go home?
As far as I am concerned there is no debate,our country is being colonized by other countries especially Mexico and the other countries south of our border.I don’t like it any more then they would like their countries being invaded by 20 to 30 million people.
Send Them Home NOW !I am numbed to the “You are racist” cry from those who do not have a real debatable leg to stand on.So if saving my way of life and my culture upsets you,so be it,I am NOT apologizing nor do I care what you think.
NOVA SCOUT,
I have read THIRTY news reports in ONE month (Aug. 2007) of RAPES/MURDERS of our babies by Illegal Aliens.I know you will say well crimes happen by people no matter where they are from.I say to you these egregious crimes could have been prevented had our borders been secure.
Here is a sample of those crimes:a 5 yr. old girl was raped in GA. by a Illeal who had AIDS and knew it at the time of the rape………A woman in Idiana woke up in the middle of the night to find a Illegal raping her 5 yr. old daughter,she tackled him,she and her other dughter held him until police arrived….A 15 yr. old in Oregon was held down by 2 Illegal cousins,they raped her then MURDERED her.One of the killers had been arrested before but released !!!!!!!!!!……A 3 yr old was raped by a Illegal and he tore her up so bad she was hospitalized………2 little girls were fondled in a GOODWILL store by a Illegal.
So don’t tell me they do not commit a LOT of horrible crimes because that was just ONE mth and does not include the other rape victims such as the 73 yr. old disabled woman assulted by a Illegal in her bedroom.
Even the ambassador of Mexico explained the age of consent in Mexico is 12 for a woman and that young men in their 20’s prefer these “women”.He asked the US to be “understanding” and lenient since it is their custom !!!!!!!!Young Women in Mexico are often raped and it is never reportd since the police really don’t care about these children.So now they have brought that type thinking to the USA !
News channel 8 has done a report on this sign. I went by there around 5:45 and they were in the parking lot for the VRE. I stopped and told the newscaster that this was Manassas City which is separate from the county, and has nothing to do with the ordinance. He got defensive and said he never reported that. I told him I haven’t even seen the news cast yet, but wanted to point that out to him. I also said that because of the size, it may not be legal. He said the police told him, since it was on private property and wasn’t obscene, it was okay.
So I’m to presume that I can put any size sign in my yard and it’s okay?
Maureen,
Way to go, keep up the great work. Thanks for the clarification to the reporter. One could see how confused the illegal aliens and their supporters are. Here’s this sign in the City of Manassass, addressing a Prince William County Resolution. Geesh, what a bunch of Bozo’s!!
No Maureen, you can’t have a sign that size in your yard or anyone else for that matter. It looks like the city code, reads a sign on residential property has a maximum area allowed of 32 square feet. Of course I don’t know the size of this sign. I have a feeling it’s larger than 32square feet. Here’s what I found, I don’t know how up to date is.
http://www.municode.com/resources/gateway.asp?pid=10932&sid=46
I will be emailing Andy H and Marc A, about my extreme displeasure. I’ll have to drive by that sign tomorrow. YUCK!
And as always, Thank you John Stirrup!!!!
Maureen, Sometimes MCP don’t know “the rules” about a variety of issues, if in fact the reporter is to be believed. Better check with zoning.
NoVA Scout has been on this blog (entirely) too long not to know what this is about. Illegal is Illegal, but scout wants to continue to waste energy pushing pointless “strategies.” Enough is enough.
Reminder from USPatriot, above: “Please join www.numbersusa.com and send faxes for FREE to your elected officials or better yet PHONE THEM MONDAY as Monday is when they will begin to debate these proposals which are being attached to the DOD (Dept.of Defense) bill.How sneaky can they get.They think we won’t be watching so they can pass these amendments which the american citizens do not want by Stealth since who would guess they would have the NERVe to attach amendments that have NOTHING to do with DOD spending !!”
RUThayer, to me paying taxes is paying ALL taxes owed. It’s tax evasion if not all is paid.
From what I read they do not know the level of compliance, they estimate 50% compliance. Although it is deplorable that an employer would keep the withholding, the individual taxpayer is not relieved of his responsibility to pay his income taxes.
I did not see the other items except a footnote that the New Mexico University Hospital often recaptures the cost for treating undocumented people. It also noted at the end that they endorse comprehensive immigration reform and site a reference to www.cirnow.org. That does put into question their objectivity. Not to mention that their conclusion states “it is impossible to document the positive impact of undocumented workers make to our state. They are often gardeners, housekeepers and nannies; they provide care for our elderly, and work as dishwashers and janitors and in other low-wage industries where they are paid less than the minimum wage. All of their efforts make life easier and richer for the rest of us. But to assume that they get a free ride in New Mexico is a mistake: they pay for the services they receive and then some.” It looks like a biased report to me.
Also RUThayer, are you truly open to dialogue? My day job is not as an accountant but I am open to new information.
Greg & Cheney: Two points to make
1) Your wrong. The last thing I want to do is provoke violence. But, read the last sentance your buddy posted below: sure sounds threatening to me.
Dave B. said on 16 Sep 2007 at 10:26 am:
Agreed Josh. He and his ilk sicken me as well. His idea of a “useful immigration debate” is amnesty. Anything less than total enforcement of the law when it comes to employees and the employer is a copout and is amnesty. Libs always suggest that we should have dialogue over this issue but their idea of dialogue always means compromise which in turn always means amnesty. No dialogue and no amnesty. Enforcement or rioting are the only two choices when it comes to this topic, and I know many, many people that are leaning towards the latter due to the inaction of the government.
2. At no point in ANY of my comments did I even use the word amnesty. Your buddies just put the brand on me as they are so quick to do - once again turning folks off. In fact that is not the solution and I did offer solutions - which was to force the feds to return the funds to the local levels. Of course those with criminal (agreeing to the definition clarified by NoVA) records should be deported.
3. I grew up here long before 66 was even built. I am quite familiar with the transitions. My neighbor’s house is the only rental on the block and it too is occupied by an ever changing group of folks. But that doesn’t mean I assume their all illegal and shout it to the Washington Post. I don’t intend to ruin lives over an unkept yard.
Isn’t that property in the historical district? I would think that makes a difference. There was an article in the Washington Post today about the house at the corner of Quarry and Prescot. The city is going to spend $94K for repairs and put a lien on the house because it is in the historical district and is falling apart due to neglect.
Thayer, I also grew up here long before 66 was built, when 28 and 29 were barely two lanes and 15 was, for the most part, a dirt road. Our phones were on party lines (we had 6 subscribers on ours) and the school budget barely represented 17% of the total county budget (actually, I think it was less)…so what’s your point? Is it that you don’t really see any changes in the county? If that’s it, you’re blind. I really think I’d rather go back to those party lines than put up with the changes that have been thrust upon us by this invasion. There are enough problems associated with growth, why should we have to deal with an invasion of people who don’t care about our county, our state, or our nation…and most certainly do not care about us. The worst part is, they were intentionally directed here (anybody remember the information regarding the fliers found at the border and in a van full of illegals pulled over in the Midwest somewhere directing them to come to Manassas?).
If you want to debate the issue Thayer, do so…and don’t purport to know more than the rest of us.
RU,
Dont think that statement is very threatening but hey…we all take things differently.
as for distributing the funds that illegals supposedly pay into the system? We’ll every statistic I’ve seen cannot accurately estimate how much is paid by them. How do you know what is contributed by illegals and what is contributed and is a bona fide error? Would not the cost of administrating yet another public program such as this outweigh the benefit? I’m pretty familiar with the distrubtion of funds and believe me that it costs money to move money at every level. By the time that money made it down to the local level it would not be that much.
That is a very good idea though, however I think the key point is to remove the root problem which is the illegals themselves and keep the border secure so they dont come back in without the proper visa’s like everyone else.
The solutions are right in front of everyone, they’ve been there for awhile..they just have to be enforced.
All,
Andy Harrover has a post about this on his blog.
http://harrover.com/wordpress/
Thanks again Maureen. I’ve left my message there.
“He said the police told him, since it was on private property and wasn’t obscene, it was okay.”
I don’t think the police enforce zoning rules, so they would not know what those rules are. Better ask someone who works in the planning and zoning office.
USP: I didn’t tell you that illegal immigrants don’t commit crimes. I told you that the incidence of crime in that group is lower than that of the general population. I have said that crimes should be treated as crimes. I have argued against automatic deportation of immigrants convicted of crimes because I have more faith that they are punished appropriately here than if they are deported (we can deport them after they serve their time). I have agreed with you that we have to get a grip on who’s crossing the border. Not sure that we disagree on anything of subtance.
Scout, the statistics I think you’re referring to is for “immigrants” as a whole, not illegal aliens in particular. In Prince William, 22% of our inmates in the Adult Detention Center are illegal aliens, which is a lot higher than their representation in the population by anyone’s count.
When our jail intake unit is processing 240 illegal aliens each month, this whole mantra of “illegal aliens are more law abiding than anyone else” doesn’t wash, notwithstanding that they’ve already violated the law by being illegal aliens in the first place.
Thanks for the info, Lafayette. You’re right. I am sure that Greg and Co. have already made a call, but it won’t hurt to make another one. I went by Prince William Street again, today, and it is still there. I will be calling those numbers tomorrow morning. I can’t believe it has been allowed to stand this long…
Nova,
Get real. First off if all the illegals did were to come here, they would still be on the wrong side of the law. However, that is not all they do Once they start working, another law is broken. If they use fake documents, another law is broken, if they have used stolen documents, another law is broken, if they do not pay taxes, another law is broken. So, while you want to spew the silly not true line that somehow illegals as a group are less likely to commit crimes then anyone else, the facts and reality say otherwise.
How about driving without a license, or without insurance. At what point do you want to consider them to be law breakers? I asked this of recordguy, and he still has not responded.
Again, how is breaking the law, and getting awarded with it a conservative value? I ask this of you, an admitted conservative, so stop with the old line of this does not break left or right.
Hey RU, I’m still waiting, and waiting…..
Anon: It’s an open blog - I don’t need an invitation. DAAAAH!
You don’t need an invitation, but you need to stop acting like a whiny child every time we smack you in the ass.
All
Andy H, has posted he has spoke to the City Manager, and hope to have an answer Monday.
Thanks, Andy and all at the City of Manassas for looking into this.
Please check out the Mar 07 article to see what happens if and when a certain element worms their way into local politics and city services: The Town the Law Forgot. Illegally posting a sign would be the least of our worries, so let’s get this stuff nipped in the bud.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54611
CoM: I agree with you that there needs to be a way to require drivers’ licenses and insurance for everyone, not just legal residents. But until we have an accurate census of who “everyone” is, it’s impossible to administer a program like this. Greg - the statistics I’m using are national studies on illegal immigrants. Their crime rates tend to be lower than the national population (unless you fall for the idea that the uninspected entry makes them all criminals or that their work-arounds of restrictions on their working makes them all criminals - but I think that what most of us are worrying about is violent crime). That doesn’t mean that something isn’t going on in PW (or any other locality) where the crime rate is higher in that group. If you’ve got a particularly (and uncharacteristically) law-breaking immigrant element in that county, that should be forcefully brought to the attention of Congress. In PW (or anywhere else) the local crime statistics should be very revealing on this. If you have a big upturn in immigrant crime there, you no doubt have a big upturn in overall crime rates. But, to get anywhere on this issue, there has to be a federal solution. Local goverments simply have inadequate powers (for good reason) under the Constitution to have any meaningful role in this. Nonetheless, I would think that any kind of crime wave (from any source within the population) is best dealt with locally by enforcing the local criminal laws. Not sure that you have to do anything in particular to deal with subgroups within the perp population.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0916hotline0916-sideON.html?
&wired
BTW, USP, I have a little trouble accepting that the Ambassador of Mexico excused rapes by arguing that we should be lenient with Mexican sex offenders because the age of consent is lower in Mexico. Can you help with the full quote and context? It seems like a fairly inflammatory statement to issue from a senior diplomat. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but it is so supremely provocative, one would have thought this guy would have been recalled, either at our insistence or because the Mexicans wanted him locked in a rubber room back home, and it would have been all over the front pages. Without more, this has that kind of “urban legend” feel to it that so often goes with some of these stories that get promiscuously lobbed around the blogosphere. If, indeed, he said what you say he said, I’ll lead the charge myself to get rid of him. If he didn’t, you can help unring the bell on putting something like that in play by posting clarifications hither and yon.
Given our past and present disagreements on the definition of many conservative issues and candidatees, it’s troubling when I found myself agreeing with NOVAScout. But it would seem he is one of the relative few who are addressing this issue with a grasp of reality and without resorting to hysterics, half-truths and yes Patriot, AWC, Monticup, etal, racism. As noted in an earlier thread, most of you lost all credibility when the issue ceased to be “illegals” and became those “troublesome Hispanics”, your words, not mine. On the bright side, NOVAScout, you should take some comfort in the course of this debate as this blog, many of its contributors and those groups now associated it will almost certainly cost Corey the BOCS chair. The multi-faceted backlash in the form of those “moderate” conservatives disgusted with the debate and some of the associations (potential supporters who will simply not go to the polls) and the potential for a massive voter drive by the Dems in the Hispanic community will likely more than offset any increase in numbers brought by the resolution. When combined with the impression that the BOCS has abandoned those issues most dear to a large segment of Corey’s core constituents, those concerned most with transportation, development and infrastructure (issues that won Corey the seat), the lack of competive races (Covington running unopposed, Marshall/Roemelt, etc.) in districts like Brentsville that carried him, competive, multi-candidate races in districts like Woodbridge that liberal strongholds and the “Gill” factor tacitly espoused by BVBL, it is readily apparent that unless Corey does some real hard campaigning on those other issues, he probably will not win (and I shudder to think of what Pandak would do in office). Similarly, if Stirrup isn’t careful he may lose his race in fashion similar to Allen. The key is not immigration but rather those issues that got them elected in the first place, probably less of a problem for Stirrup but if you review the results of the last elections, Corey has to win both Brentsville and Gainesville by substantial margins or he’s toast.
Mom
“Their crime rates tend to be lower than the national population”
I’m not sure how one could possibly determine this with any degree of accuracy, because any way you figure the numbers, you are going to require an accurate count of illegal aliens in the USA which does not exist.
Is it 12 million? 20 million? Who knows? I shouldn’t need to point it out, but, if the figure used for the illegal alien population is 20 million in one calculation and, say, 10 million in another, the calculation using the 10 million figure will show DOUBLE the crime rate of the calculation using the 20 million figure.
On top of that, one would need to have accurate information about the number of illegal aliens currently incarcerated (if one is going to figure it that way). It is commonly theorized that jails know exactly who in their inmate population is illegal. I have my doubts that this is the case, particularly because the determination of who is and who is not legal requires special training (provided, incidentally, as part of the 287(G) program).
Let’s stick to the issue.
The issue is not crime rate statistics (which can be manipulated, as we all know), and the issue is not what I or anyone else think or believe about illegal aliens, Hispanics, non-Hispanics, illegal alien Muslims, etc. The focus needs to be on border security, the rule of law and the deportation of illegal aliens. Bringing in extraneous issues clouds the real issue which is just what the illegal alien apologist is trying to do.
What makes our country great, among other things, is the rule of law. My opinions, prejudices, and biases are immaterial.
“The focus needs to be on border security, the rule of law and the deportation of illegal aliens. Bringing in extraneous issues clouds the real issue which is just what the illegal alien apologist is trying to do.”
Exactly.
Then there’s the economic argument. Well, if this country’s economy depends on illegal labor, then it’s in even worse shape than I thought. (The housing bubble mess IS going to leave a mark and I think expectations of a “soft landing” are optomistic at best).
RUThayer said on 16 Sep 2007 at 12:58 am:
Had to Say: No, it does not mean amnesty at all. It means the money held at higher government levels needs to be routed down to local levels. Your stolen credit is not from the illegal immigrants, it’s from your internet savy citizenry. Illegals only use the ssn to get employment.
Awww…all the illegal immigrants want to do is work with your stolen id. Wake up for cryin’ out loud!!!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/30/AR2007073001715.html
Nova,
If we know who is exactly in the Country, why do we need to give them a Drivers license? At that point, we can simply deport them, and not have to worry about them continuing to abuse the system.
Again, you either not seeing my point blank questions, or are just ignoring them because you don’t want to admit your defense of these criminals is wrong.
Anon,
Have you ignored the media’s attention on hispanics only when it comes to illegals aliens? If anyone is to be blamed for turning this into a racial issue it i the media and those that support illegals.
If there is more focus on Hispanic illegals it’s because their numbers (20-30 million) dwarfs the number of illegal aliens in other ethnic groups.
I do notice that all the sob stories are about Hispanic illegal aliens. Aren’t illegal aliens from other ethnic groups entitled to equal time?
NoVA SCOUT,
The Ambassador DID NOT condone rape he was merely explaining why he believes the problem exsist and yes he feels bad for his countrymen getting in trouble.It is NOT a Urban Legend,I read his remarks in a news story.I will try to locate it and post a link here.I am not a vigilante type person and I certaintly am not a racist who post “inflammatory” stories to enrage people.I am a citizen also trying to understand the problem of so many Illegal Alien rapes and their probable cause and it is a growing problem.The ambassador gave a possible explaination,unpalatible as it may be to US citizens.If you have Mexican friends from the small villages in Mexico ask them how women are treated there.
I honesly like the Mexican Ambassador and he is understanding of americans problems.Much more so then President Calderon.
I did not mean to get off subject I just was responding to your assertion Illegal Aliens are not committing a lot of serious crimes which is simply not true.
I should like to point out that I have made it quite clear in all my comments that the problem I am addressing is illegal aliens…ALL ILLEGAL ALIENS. The only times that I have mentioned Hispanics in these threads is in anecdotal comments or in addressing the obvious (i.e., paraphrased, the illegal alien debate has focused so sharply on Hispanics because it is the Hispanic lobbies that are focusing it there), and it’s easy to check because I NEVER post anonymously! Yes, mom, I resent the so-called racist argument and resent being associated with it. This issue has nothing to do with race…only the rule of law!
AWC, if you have the impression that I am tagging you with the racist label, I apologise, I will concede that you have largely focused your arguements on the issue at hand. What I was pointing out is that, protestations aside, it is clear that there is a racist element to a significant fraction of the comments in virtually every thread on the subject. That having been said, you may resent being associated with the racist arguement but you know what happens when you lie down with dogs.
Just curious, given your self-described long term experience and activism, what do you make of Stewart and Stirrup’s chances given their (rightly or wrongly) being “associated with the racist arguement”? Are they in need of damage control?
Mom
Hardly, Mom…I would be inclined to say that this issue will drive many people out to the polls who may not be regular voters, and not those on the side of the illegal aliens in the debate. I would even venture to say that this might become the driving issue in November, and (theoretically, at least) the illegal aliens can’t vote. The unfortunate thing about this is, some candidates have taken a stand on this purely for the publicity and its vote-getting potential…in my opinion, Corey Stewart being one.
“I would be inclined to say that this issue will drive many people out to the polls who may not be regular voters”, you’re so close but you continue to miss the point. As a one who has purportedly been a “long time” GOP activist, I find it stunning that you have forgotten some of the hard learned object lessons from the past. I could easily draw an analogy to the nearly successful coup by the fundamentalists two decades ago. Few within the GOP believed that they were capable of delivering sufficient numbers to the mass meetings until the school buses full of newly minted “Republicans” showed up at the door and voted like sheep in response to the arm motions of each group’s leader.
You are probably correct in that the issue “will drive many people out to the polls who may not be regular voters”, but I suspect that the assertion that they will not be “on the side of the illegal aliens” is incorrect. I would suggest that it would be relatively simple for some of the opposition groups to organize voters in a fashion not unlike the fundamentalists and literally deliver them to the polls. Given that there is little more than speculation as to the number of illegals present in the population and even less evidence as to what percentage of certain ethnic groups they comprise, relying on their perceived small numbers would seem to be a dangerous if not foolhardy gambit.
Similarly, given that in theory most of commenters here and on other blogs would vote as a matter of course and the relatively small percentage of the population that actually read blogs (and the fraction of a percent that actually read this one) I can’t fathom how you would perceive enough of an increase in “anti-illegal” votes to offset voter drives by the opposition. When combined with the number of regular voters who might chose to sit this one out as the debate grows uglier (and yes Virginia that is a steadily increasing number), it occurs to me that many of the commenters here are quite literally shooting themselves and their agenda in the foot.
I can generally excuse most of them as the general public is somewhat naieve when it comes to big picture campaiging, but you supposedly should know better. Consider the following:
1. You’ve potentially energized a signifcant portion of the ordinarily non-voting but eligible voter pool for the opposition.
2. The agenda has been tied to groups such as the Klan by the MSM.
3. This site attacks not only the “illegals” but also several legitimate (and no I’m not going to debate Luca’s silly convention whining) GOP candidates, thus sending a mixed message and providing even more ammunition for the opposition.
4. You’ve put forth a message with (intended and/or unintended) racist undertones.
As a result, you may have significantly increased the Dems numbers and merely maintained current GOP numbers as the gains made are probably offset by likely attrition. Remember, most of the voters derive the preponderance of their information from the MSM, media generally unfavorable to this blog and likely to present their spin and hysterics, just to a substially larger audience.
In the end, given the demographics of his district, it probably won’t be enough to lose the race for Stirrup but if I were Corey, I might be looking for a new hobby. Though I may not be Corey’s greatest fan, I certainly prefer the devil I know to Pandak, and I suspect she might be a bit of nightmare for you as well, presuming that you are actually a conservative.
If this country were in the hands of you morons, we’d have lynch mobs, racism and hatred running rampant. Do you not have any decency to recognize that illegals are also people and that judging all of a group by conduct of a few is the same idiocy that led to hating blacks, jews, asians and anyone else? Do you have any compassion for the children? Do you have any empathy at all, or do you think that hating is some form of Christianity? Of course, illegal immigration is a problem, but thinking that the world is either “us or them” is the same stupid thinking that gets every country in trouble. You could easily subsitute this thinking for Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. I’m ashamed to even be around you people who think like this.
Just so you know, I’m a conservative Protestant Republican with white skin and my family goes all the way back to the Mayflower. And I’ll bet my family has shed more blood for this country than any ten of you. And I’ll bet I could buy and sell all of you dopes. Leave these people alone and approach the larger problem where it belongs: with the federal government. On the local level, clean up crime as it occurs based on each offense. Don’t wholesale the issue.
Has anyone else noticed what appears to be a “private property” sign in the foreground of the sign. So, on one hand the property owner supports illegals who pay no attention to National borders, yet wishes to keep folks out of his little piece of land. Is this called irony?
WASP,
Of course anger should be directed at the Government. But that is only half the problem, you don’t solve a problem by going after only a part of it, or even half of it.
Should we just allow folks to drink and drive, and then complain about the police not doing their jobs? Should we just accept all criminal behavior and just blame the Government for it?
I do not have any sympathy for anyone who comes here illegally and then complains about how tough life is.
The only dopes I see are the ones who support illegals. They are the ones who can’t see to understand what is illegal and what is not illegal.
“And I’ll bet I could buy and sell all of you dopes.”
I’ll bet you could WASP. Isn’t it strange that so many of the wealthiest of our population are so interested in maintaining the status quo or providing amnesty for this subculture, while the vast majority of working class sods are the ones largely paying for it and thus opposing it? Sorry, but if you are not as wealthy as you believe yourself to be, you’ll just have to do your own lawn work and, if you own a business(es) that thrives on the use of illegal alien labor, you’ll just have to get used to that increased overhead and actually competing fairly with law-abiding businesses.
AWCheney nails it on the head. WASP, to hell with you and elites like you who sell this country out from the bottom up and betray our own people while you prattle about “Christian charity”, easy enough to do when it’s not your neighbors rattling your walls and leering at your daughter. Put some illegals up in your own home, then come back here and try to tell people what to think and how to live. Until then, hold your fire and shut your mouth please. “Buy and sell” some humility, jackass.
WASP, calling people who disagree with you dopes and morons is hypocrisy when you accuse others of not seeing illegals as humans. I actually see them as humans, can you say the same thing for them? Do they look at Americans as humans or do they fall for the irresponsible rhetoric that labels us all as racists if we don’t support illegal immigration? I would think that anyone who is truly interested in helping illegals would not be so polarizing in their speech.
If I used your reasoning, Rick Bentley, all people who think like you would be judged not on their individual opinions, but by their skin, or their religion, or their ethnic background, or their wealth. If someone leers at your daughter, Rick, have him arrested. If someone violates your rights or steals something, have him arrested. These are real crimes. An “illegal” child hasn’t committed a crime. You obviously have no idea what Christian charity is — and you obviously feel threatened and you obviously are a hateful person. Don’t judge a group by the actions of an individual. I’m certainly not judging your family because you’re a dope.
Cheney: Listen to yourself and tell me you know or have known any of these folks on a personal level. “Why should we have to deal with an invasion of people who don’t care about our county, our state, or our nation…and most certainly do not care about us…”
“If you want to debate the issue Thayer, do so…and don’t purport to know more than the rest of us.”
You’re so defensive it’s pathetic. You’re mistaking knowledge for listening skills. You don’t hear anything but the sound of your own tongue wagging.
You’re assumptions are flat wrong. Most of those I know do care about this country and the way these ‘Save so and so ..’ groups are going is only going to waste your tax money as higher court rulings have evidenced. You continue to spin your wheels and make such unfounded judgements. Be opened to the law suits that will arise from it. The damage created by the tension in the air - hostility you people have created.
This will all backfire on you guys. History will not be kind because whether you want to admit it or not - this blog DOES attract racists. The public does see it. Makes people who visit this site want to do a full scan just from being around so much dirt.
Greg: regarding your jail statistics. You need to reduce it for the large portion that’s in your local jail awaiting transfer to INS facilities.
Greg: you also need to reduce the school costs for the fact that LEGAL children of ILLEGAL immigrants were not factored in the figures used by local gov’t for cost analysis.
“You’re so defensive it’s pathetic. You’re mistaking knowledge for listening skills.”
That statement makes absolutely no sense in context of the comment which you were addressing…or even in context of this entire debate, for that matter. Would you care to clarify, Thayer, how “listening skills” are at all relevant within the context of the current dialogue?
Insofar as my assumptions being “flat wrong,” I’d consider that statement more credible if you could offer more than one neighbor and only your own personal acquaintances as an example of my being “flat wrong.” Of course, that might explain the importance to you of “listening skills,” per that previous quote of yours. Of course, it would also mean that you don’t have much use for knowledge…which would explain a lot.
RUT, I just went back through the entire thread and through Greg’s original post, and I found NOTHING that Greg either posted or commented upon relating to school costs. Are you referring to a different thread, a different person, or are you just making it up as you go along?
Ru,
You are right this blog does attract kooks, because you certainly found your way here.
The fact you do not admit illegals use stolen ID cards, social security cards, etc, tells us all we need to know about you.
Are you saying illegals care about this Country? If so, they sure do have a funny way of showing, since they broke the law in how they came here.
MOM: well, there’s a first time for everything. This is one reason that disagreements among Republicans on local issues should be kept fairly polite and restrained - one never knows whether the next issue might bring us closer together.
Re Stewart’s efforts to ride this 2I (illegal immigration) mule to electoral glory - I appreciate your point, but think that PW is so solidly Republican and the Democrats so incompetent that his position is fairly safe. But you do obliquely hit on a real problem for all your supervisors and local officials who have tried to saddle this one up. To make gains on 2I with the voters, one has to substantially exaggerate the negative local impacts, much like Greg and other bloggers. When elected leaders of the community start talking about how bad things are (Crime!!, Vagrancy!!!, Rape!!!, Murder!!!, 2I Drunks!!!!, Flophouses!!, etc.!!, etc.!!) in order to make hay out of Illegal Immigration, they are necessarily talking down their community, not talking it up. I know you are no fan of Corey’s predecessor, but one of the distinguishing characteristics of his governance was that he was always an upbeat, amiable cheerleader for how great Prince William is, was, and could be. It’s not the be-all and end-all of governance, but it makes a difference in how both residents and outsiders perceive the community. It also partially explains how Connaughton could pull 70 - 80% votes in his second term. Stewart can’t do that and still flog votes out of 2I. That really limits his leadership potential.
We’re still more than six weeks out from elections, and I suspect some of these folks will realize that running a negative campaign against their own neighborhoods isn’t an unmitigated blessing. Watch for them to moderate their tone as they scooch toward November.
NoVa Scout
EXAGGERATE!! I think not!! Everything I’ve wrote about on this blog, spoke of PWCBOS meetings, and to numerous other people. I have pictures to prove each and every violation, etc, I’ve spoke of. Pictures do not lie. Patty, who posts here too, also has pictures. At least 30 pictures have been presented to the PWCBOS, by myself and Patty.
By any chance to did you visit the HSM booth at the PWC Fair? Well, there was a board of pictures there. I’ll have you know all but two of the pictures were taken by me of WestGate. If you weren’t there I sure hope those who saw those pictures would tell you about them. Trust me you will not include me on your “list of exaggerators”. If you need more proof I can show you some clips of mine and Patty’s streets that aired yesterday on PBS yesterday on Religion and Ethics.
GREG:
Help Save Manassas should take advantage of this beautiful weather and hold a candle light vigil on the sidewalk in front of this sign. It would be interesting to see what public figures would attend. And, it would be fun.
As for the effectiveness of this sign, I agree fully with Steve Thomas when he says, “LEAVE IT UP”! All it does is draw more attention worldwide to what is happening here.
I saw a Telemundo camera crew tonight at the scene, they were waiting for the property owner. Channel 8 was there today, my son saw channel 5 there.
Mike
Excellent idea.
I’m with you and Steve “LEAVE IT UP”, I just posted to Andy’s blog stating my agreement.
I saw the piece on Channel 5, a little while ago, it souded the same old thing I heard on Channel 8 yesterday. Channel 5, interviewed the property owner. I think, he said he came here illegally, and has been a citizen for about 12 years. I’ll see if I can find it and post it here.
Thanks for all you do, and keep up the good work.
Mike,
I found the link. Is Paul your son? If so he’s on here too.
I would like to add as PWC residents and you as Manassas City resident. Wouldn’t like to see the story told, stating that the sign is posted in the City of Manassas limits, yet the sign is addressing PWC. I think most know I love the City as much as my native PWC. My grandmother, aunt, and cousin all live in the City of Manassas, and my mother is a Class of ‘55 graduate
of Osbourn High School.
http://www.myfoxdc.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=4385438&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1
Lafayette: the word “exaggerate” is subjective and I don’t want it to obscure my point. It could well be that in your neighborhood, everything is objectively gone-to-hell as you indicate. So I’ll strike the word in favor of “accentuate the negative.” My point being that for this issue to be useful to a politician, he has to set the table by talking repeatedly about how bad things are. I further postulate that the really popular leaders, especially at the local level, have to be enthusiastic boosters for their communities. If you spend a lot of time and energy doing the former, it’s hard to make the transition to the latter. That’s why this issue may, as MOM suggests, bite a few pols in the posterior as they try to con you guys into voting for them.
Again, what seems to be the problem with the thinking of you anti-immigrants is this: you believe all “illegals” commit crimes and rather than deal with the issues in the complex fashion it requires, you are too stupid to break out the problem and address it individually and thoughtfully.
Here’s your misplaced logic:
Major premise: “All illegal aliens commit dangerous crimes.”
Minor premise: “We have illegal aliens.”
Conclusion: “Therefore all the illegal aliens around us are criminals.”
Because the major premise is false, the conclusion is false. The major premise is false because while “illegals” are “illegal” not all (or even significanlty) are dangerous criminals.
This fear gives rise to mob thinking and mob actions. This is exactly the type of fear the Nazis used against the jews and gypsies, the communists used against “capitalists”, the Pol Pot used against his enemies, the Rwandans used, the Turks used against the Armenians.
Truly, all of you who think that hating a group will solve a problem, are complete idiots. You need to think instead of hating. The sign on the property is right — many of the people in the Hispanic community have died for this country without being legal residents. They support this economy. If we let them in and admitted that our economy encourages them to come to serve us and keep our prices down, we would find ourselves in a far better position.
Reasoning with idiots is probably a futile effort, but I hope at least one of you comes to your senses before you do something truly stupid. Think. This is a country of immigrants and I would bet that most of your ancestors had the same thoughts as these people you hate so much: to find freedom and work in this country. Try to remember the symbolism of the Statue of Liberty.
As a conservative Republican that believes in the free market, limited government involvement and the right of the individual, I truly am ashamed of you. You are the laughing stock of the world and you deserve to be.
WASP,
Of course not every illegal is a dangerous criminal. However, given the fact they are not supposed to be here in the first place, any further crime they commit is one crime that should not have been committed. I have asked this a million times, and I suppose I should now better to think any of you who support illegals will ever answer but…. At one point do you draw the line on transgressions?
This has nothing to do with fear, and everything to do with the rule of law, another conservative value you seem to ignore. The way you keep reminding us you are a “conservative” has me wondering maybe you are not in fact one, since you seem to hold no conservative values, and bring up talking points used by liberals.
Identity thief is one of the fastest growing crimes we have in America. Many illegals use stolen social security numbers to gain employment. So, even though they are not “dangerous” criminals, in your mind, you are fine with them causing financial harm for someone else?
How about driving without insurance? If an illegal who does not have insurance, and most likely not even a driver’s license hits your car, who is going to pay for that? But, I guess you are fine with paying more for insurance since after all the illegal who hit you is not a “dangerous” criminal.
I know NOVA will not answer this question, but maybe you will. How is breaking the law and benefiting from it a conservative value? Another conservative value is being held accountable for your own actions, yet you obviously do not believe in that either.
How many illegals have died in Iraq? Again, if they hate the fact they have a rough life here, that is on them since they came here the wrong way. If anything they should be pissed at their own Government for not doing enough. But like you, the illegals just want to blame the wrong people for their own problems.
Of course America is a Nation of immigrants, though there is a bit of a difference between legal immigrants and illegal ones. I suppose there is some irony given you are calling other folks idiots, but you don’t seem to understand the difference between legal and illegal.
You should also realize the difference between shopping and paying for an item at the store, and shoplifting the item from the store.
WASP: How many times do I have to say this for you to understand–it doesn’t matter whether the illegal alien is (aside from his illegality and use of fradulent documents) is a dangerous criminal, a not so dangerous criminal or a petty thief. They need to be deported. Stop quibbling about degrees of criminality.
COM
Maybe, the question for WASP is..
What part of ILLEGAL DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND?
Just a thought.
“This has nothing to do with fear, and everything to do with the rule of law”
It is funny that you used this argument. Ithink that what you don’t understand is that calling us liberals or elitists won’t solve your problems. You call a group elitists because you rtecognized that you are down.
Lafayette;
You are intelligent. I have read your posts, so stop using the Lou Dobbs arguments. Think about it and stop using the catchy phrase of what part of illegals you don’t understand?
The question was Are all illegal immigrants coimmitting crimes after crossing the border?
If you believe that once a criminal always a criminal then oour whole justice system has flaws and you should kill every criminal because there is no way that they will learn the lesson.
When you use th word criminal as a loaded term you compared people who entered here illegally with killers or drug dealers.
Again, are all of them a danger for you or me?
Is that all they are doing here?
Folks, you don’t levae your family and everything you now to come here and do stupid things. Some do it but not all of them. The statistics that Greg have been reporting that about 10-20% of criminals caught with the new 287 g agreement are illegal aliens tells you something:You have to deal with 80% of criminals that are your own people.
Monticup,
It doesn’t matter how many times you say it. They are here and not all of them continue with the path of “Crime”
Anon,
If they are such nice people, why do they break the law and continue to break the law? Why don’t they attempt to change their own Nation first? Instead, they show us respect by breaking our immigration laws, and then once here, openly have disdain for our laws, customs and tradition of LEGAL immigration.
I use those terms in order to show there is a difference between those of us who support the rule of law, and those who do not, such as liberals.
If you and I get caught for speeding, we pay our fine and we move on. But paying our fine does not give us the right from that point on to continue to speed without being further subjected to more fines when we are caught.
An illegal is in a constant state of law breaking even without having committed any other crime, though most end up breaking multiple crimes anyway.
And again of course we have criminals who are born here, nobody disputes that, but y’all(those that support illegals) can’t seem to understand there is no comparison between them and the illegals.
Do you want to answer this question? I have copied it from my earlier post. Why can’t I get a simple answer to this question from y’all who support illegals?
Of course not every illegal is a dangerous criminal. However, given the fact they are not supposed to be here in the first place, any further crime they commit is one crime that should not have been committed. I have asked this a million times, and I suppose I should know better to think any of you who support illegals will ever answer but…. At one point do you draw the line on transgressions?
Anon at 10:40am….
The problem is that we don’t know how many of them are criminals as they are, as the democrats put it (I am a registered democrat but not for long) “hiding in the shadows.” There are a reported 600,000 plus illegal alien criminals out there that have been ordered deported and the government can’t find them. Read the local Manassas paper police brief section and check the names and/or descriptions!
Monticup: When you paint everyone with the same brush, you paint yourself. Have you ever had a traffic ticket? if so, are you a criminal for life or just until you pay your ticket? If the “illegals” are granted amnesty, are they still criminals? Your problem continues to be that you can’t distinguish gradations or nuances. You don’t understand that laws are cultural norms and they may change as social conditions change. To you, everything is black and white. You’re either good or bad. You’re either smart of stupid. You’re either with us or against us.
Personally, being on the other side of you is an honor. You, and people who think like you, are far more dangerous than the illegals. You are demagogues and haters, potential lynchers and racists. You are the ones who, unchecked, will lead this country into the type of totalitarianism and terrorism we all hate. You are not the police or the courts, but you think that you have the right to enforce your will on those who have fewer means to defend themselves.
What do I not understand about illegal? I’ll tell you — if you gave me your background for a day, I would find more than a few illegal things about you. I think I could do it for anyone. Did you pay your taxes on time? Did you obey the traffic laws. Did you pay all your credit cards on time? Did you beat a dog? Did you jaywalk? Did you speed? How big is your glass house, you hypocrit.
I would strongly advise you to show some charity to those who aren’t as arrogant as you.
anon- Why can’t you understand that one crime committed by an illegal is one too many? They don’t have a right to be here! The average population for the past year at the Manassas Adult Detention Center for illegal’s has been 21%! Way too many as far as I’m concerned.
Those don’t include the one’s who steal other’s identities. That is not a victimless crime.
Those figures don’t include those illegal’s who are driving without a license and insurance.
I could go on and on.
to the point of the ILLEGAL sign in old towne… It figures that a bunch of illegal allien supporters would resort to posting an illegal sign that complains about something that didn’t even happen in the jurisdiction in which they are violating the law… Better yet, the property was at one timne a prominent hotel (back before it meant leaving your screen door open… If the City can’t have this forcibly removed something is truely wrong; this sign isn’t freedom of speech it’s an eyesore and a true demonstration that the property owner does not want to assimilitate into the community that he claims to have lived in legally for 12 years.
Anon, WASP:
1. Illegals steal (identities, social security numbers).
2. Illegals forge documents.
3. Illegals steal benefits (WIC, foodstamps, subsidized housing, etc.) that are meant for legal taxpayers.
They do all of this at the expense of legal taxpayers!
Citizen of Manassas: Conservatives advance the idea of limited government, individual rights, the rule of law over the rule of the mob, property rights and the ability of all people to compete in the marketplace. Conservatives abhor artificial restrictions on the market. I believe in all of these. I also believe that each person should be judged on their own actions and not those of the group he belongs to. I believe that all people have the right to control their own destiny and to take responsibility for their decisions. I believe that the federal government controls the borders, and I believe the constitution protects against the intrusion of the government into the personal affairs of individuals.
Illegal aliens are illegal because they have entered this country illegally. I also believe they have created a dilemma for the country because they have now made themselves indispensible as workers, soldiers and potential citizens. I do not believe in classes of citizens and I therefore believe they, or a large part, will become good citizens of the US in the future. I also know that we are almost all immigrants and have faced the same issues.
Whether you want to paint a conservative a liberal or vice versa makes no difference to me. My values tell me that anyone who uses group-think to justify eliminating individuals is a danger and is not a real conservative.
anon @10:40
Thank you for the compliment!
No, I don’t think all illegal aliens are all committing crimes. However, I do believe they have broken our laws by entering our country illegally. Heck, the illegal alien group is just like any other group, they all have good, and they all have bad. I would also like to add I certainly do think people are coming here for a better life, and would encourage that as long as they come here legally.
You probably are aware that I’ve lived my entire life next door to legal immigrants. I applaud and welcome this. My great grandmother was an immigrant herself, and she went on to be a midwife in rural WVA. I understand we are a nation of immigrants, and this is part of what makes our nation GREAT!!!I just want ALL immigrants to come here LEGALLY.
I would also like to English as the language of our county, The Commonwealth, and of course the U.S.A.
I hope this helps explain myself a little better.
WASP, it would be hard for a person to come here illegally and then to continue to operate without breaking additional laws (as I mentioned above).
Thanks Lafayette. You never dissapoint me with your comments
Wasp,
Thanks for ignoring the questions. I asked you point blank what transgressions you were willing to allow or not allow.
The only folks involved in this issue that are being arrogant are the illegals who are openly mocking our laws, and their supporters.
How can you favor the rule of law and then support law breakers?
The Federal Government is not protecting the borders, and that is a huge reason why we have so many illegals, which is also why State and local Governments need to pick up the slack.
Your whole don’t lump them in as a single group bs is just that. Every illegal is part of the same group simply for the very reason they all are here illegally. Unlike you and other supporters of illegals, those of us that against illegal aliens understand and realize there is a difference between illegal and legal. As I said, you though have the nerve to call people idiots.
Stop attempting to say you are a conservative, you are no such thing. Anybody that believes in breaking the law and benefiting from it is no conservative.
Oh, and I love the additional liberal talking points you use regarding “mob rule”. Exactly how is having an opinion against illegal aliens a mob rule? Talk about scare tactics, you are the only one engaging in such tactics when you talk about potential lynchings. You really do not do your side any favors with that type of talk.
In today’s MJM
Bamford said the police have attempted to contact the owner about the sign but have been unsuccessful in their attempts as of Monday afternoon. City staff was unavailable for comment at press time.
http://www.manassasjm.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=MJM/MGArticle/WPN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1173352790369&path=
How odd that the city cannot contact the owner, yet every media outlet in the area has been able to locate him for an interview.
Perhaps the owner will be at the PWCBOS meeting today. Since he doesn’t like what PW’S DOING. Does he realize his property is in the City of Manassas?
I wonder if the person that hung the sign has aided and abetted???
“if you gave me your background for a day, I would find more than a few illegal things about you. I think I could do it for anyone. Did you pay your taxes on time? Did you obey the traffic laws. Did you pay all your credit cards on time? Did you beat a dog? Did you jaywalk? Did you speed? How big is your glass house, you hypocrit.”
This is another variant of the “everyone does it” excuse.
“I asked you point blank what transgressions you were willing to allow or not allow”
Perhaps the better question is how much are YOU willing to spend to prosecute all transgressions. If the transaction cost is too high to prosecute all transgressions, then which one are YOU willing to allow or not allow. That having been said, how do you propose funding the enforcement mechanism and if that enforcement mechanism is to be funded then shouldn’t all enforcement mechanisms be funded to equal extent? Should we, for example, provide funding to the IRS such that they could prosecute every individual who has fudged their return or funding to Chief Deane to ensure that everyone who goes one mile over the speed limit is prosecuted? If its all about illegal meaning illegal you should all be in favor of those measures even if it means doubling or tripling your tax bills.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for sending “illegal aliens” home, I’m just not in favor of breaking the bank (mine or the government’s) to do it or doing it at the expense of other equally important programs. At a certain point, intent aside, it becomes an issue of diminishing returns and unrealistic goals.
Mom
“If I used your reasoning, Rick Bentley, all people who think like you would be judged not on their individual opinions, but by their skin, or their religion, or their ethnic background, or their wealth. ”
Complete nonsense.
“If someone leers at your daughter, Rick, have him arrested. ”
If he’s a criminal, i.e. an illegal alien, sounds good.
“If someone violates your rights or steals something, have him arrested. These are real crimes. An “illegal” child hasn’t committed a crime.”
The parent has. They conspire with elitist scumbags like you to deflate Americans’ wages and move our cities closer to third-world conditions. You and them together and stealing America from under the feet of the descendants of those who built it and defended it.
“You obviously have no idea what Christian charity is — and you obviously feel threatened and you obviously are a hateful person.”
And you’re obviously out of touch with how most people who live in this area feel. Easy to preach when your life isn’t affected.
“Don’t judge a group by the actions of an individual. I’m certainly not judging your family because you’re a dope.”
I judge individual illegal aliens only by their individual actions. Human smuggling and identity fraud are not excusable to me just because the person stands to make more money if they engage in it. These people are not villanous, but are collectively engaging in known illegal acts which are eroding way of life for our lower and middle classes. For the sake of cheap labor - nothing else, don’t fool yourself.
You’re obviously an arrogant person who has little empathy for lower-class Americans. I have no further interest in excahnging insults with an elitist a**hole like you.
“or funding to Chief Deane to ensure that everyone who goes one mile over the speed limit is prosecuted?”
In the engineering world, there is such a thing as “tolerance”. No, I’m not talking about what liberals refer to when they talk about “tolerance”, I’m referring to how a specification, such as a measurement, can deviate in either direction by a specified amount and still be considered acceptable. This is because it is impossible to be 100% exact when you are dealing with measurements, and most applications do not need extreme precision in any event. Any given appliance in your house is happy running from 105V on up to 130V, for example, even though the specified voltage is 120V, it may not always be 120V for a number of reasons.
On to speed limits…
The unofficial upper bound for acceptable speed appears to be around +10MPH, with the lower bound being 0MPH, in a traffic jam (A negative speed would be interpreted as going backwards, which is not legal).
This is backed up by a data analysis of Fairfax County Arrest Records which showed that in a one-week period, no tickets were written for anyone going less than 10MPH over the limit.
On to illegals…
The things I talked about before are ANALOG measurements with degrees of variation. We’re interested in knowing how MUCH someone was speeding before we declare them in violation of the law and determine what their punishment shall be. This is set forth in the law, with increasing penalties as someone exceeds the speed limit by a greater amount, eventually leading up to reckless driving and potential jail time.
Likewise, when we consider whether there is a power problem in a house, we are interested in knowing what the voltage actually is at the electrical outlet in question, in order to determine if it is within acceptable limits. If it is not, then, and only then, are repairs to correct the problem needed.
Illegal aliens for real this time…
If someone enters this country improperly, they have violated the law. Illegal/legal, yes/no, on/off, this is a BINARY situation, not an analog one. There is nothing in the law insofar as I’m aware that offers greater punishment for illegal entry except that illegal entry after deportation is a felony. We don’t, for example, care how far one came past the border, or how long they stayed, it doesn’t matter–they have still committed the same crime of improper entry.
There is a line on a map and if you’ve crossed it improperly, you’re illegal. Period.
So if you get pulled over for doing 30 in a school zone, you’re going to argue before the judge that you were within the “tolerance” of the statute and that you should not be fined?
What don’t YOU understand about illegal.
In a sense however, you are correct, it is ultimately an issue of tolerances, how much of an impact are citizens willing to tolerate and how much of fiscal load will they otherwise tolerate.
Mom
“So if you get pulled over for doing 30 in a school zone, you’re going to argue before the judge that you were within the “tolerance” of the statute and that you should not be fined?”
You missed my point. Let me see if I can simplify this so that you can understand it:
Doing 10 over probably won’t get you a second glance from any cop running radar, even in a school zone.
Doing 30 over will almost certainly get you a reckless driving citation if you happen to catch the attention of a cop, no matter where in Virginia you do it. And if it happens to be in excess of 90MPH you can expect jail time.
See, the more you exceed the speed limit, the bigger the punishment you get. If you just exceed the speed limit a little you can expect no punishment at all, because you won’t even get a ticket. If you exceed the speed limit a lot, you could even get jailtime. How interesting is that? So are you still wondering why nobody presses Chief Deane to enforce the speed limit within 1MPH, or even within 5MPH? Of course you know the answer.
Illegal entry isn’t punished that way. You’ve either violated or not. Of course, if you did want it punished that way, I would have to argue that illegal entry where someone improperly entered by walking across the border and stayed for an hour or two with the intention of going back is very similar to speeding 5-10MPH over the limit and probably isn’t worth punishing.
However, someone who improperly enters by hiring a coyote and then, for example, ends up 2000 miles away in Manassas, VA and stays for 3 years is probably very similar to speeding well in excess of 30MPH over the limit and ought to be punished more severely.
The actions in either case demonstrate a willfull intent to violate the law, and the punishment should be commensurate with that. Nobody unintentionally exceeds the limit by well over 30MPH, and nobody unintentionally ends up 2000 miles from the border in Manassas. Both are egregious examples of willful disregard of the law.
“In a sense however, you are correct, it is ultimately an issue of tolerances, how much of an impact are citizens willing to tolerate and how much of fiscal load will they otherwise tolerate.”
Citizens are not willing to tolerate many of the effects of illegal immigration when it starts affecting them personally. It was fine when it was a problem that other states like California had to deal with, and the cheap produce was a nice benefit…but when it starts impacting their own community, citizens do start to care about the problem and want something done about it.
It’s very much a problem that the effects of which need to be seen and experienced to be appreciated. For example, almost everyone knows that driving 30MPH over the limit can result in a pretty bad wreck, among other things. Not everyone knows or can appreciate that illegal immigration results in, among other things, overcrowding and out-of-control property taxes, and some deny it, because they benefit from it. They derive political power from it, or financial gain.
Deriving political power or financial gain from something that is illegal is “corruption” in my book.
According to the MJM, the owner of the sign is unable to be located. He apparently was speaking at the BOCS meeting today and gave his name as Fernandez from 10950 Pendergrast Street. It was difficult to understand him, but I have him on tape, so if anyone on the Manassas City Council wants to try to find him, check out the re-broadcasts of the meeting. Perhaps it was just difficult to understand him, but according to the USPS.gov, that address does not exist. Are these people using false information when they speak before the Board?
Guess what the owner of the City of Manassas property with sign was in fact at the PWCBOS meeting. I didn’t get to hear him speak though. I saw every news station interviewing him outside of the McCoart Bldg.
And the City of Manassas cannot locate him? Is it because he has “no fixed address”?
I wonder did anyone here the owner speak at citizen’s time?
What address did he use?
Legal2
“no fixed address” The possibilities are endless as always. I got word of another house in your neck of the woods, with chickens that like to run. Keep your eyes open. You might be able to catch, kill, and cook dinner. Save yourself a trip to the grocery store and some money too!
Anon,
I think the cost in not doing something is far greater then the cost we might spend. A lawless society is not going to be a productive one. The IRS already goes after tax cheats, do they get them all of course not, but that does not stop them from trying to whittle the list down.
Same goes for identity theft or any crime for that matter. Obviously, people commit crimes all the time and law enforcement is always in a “catch up” mode. Yet, nobody is going around saying we should just take it easy on law enforcement because of the time and numbers involved.
The illegals and their supporters say they just want to be treated like everyone else. Well, this is a way to treat them like everyone else.
Truly, I don’t mind a FEW chickens - used to want some myself. Of course if all the illegals leave, we all may have to “grow our own!” (hahaha). I am in a more rural setting so a FEW chicks are ok, but in the city - I don’t think livestock is a good idea, either.
Legal2
Agreed a few chix out there would be ok. However, I think it’s more than a few, and the are on the run!! Hopefully the illegal aliens will follow that mentality on the run from my native PWC.
Well, the ball is definately rolling on both, and third tomorrow. Improvements are sure to follow. Just like everything else it won’t happen overnight, but it will happen very soon.
ALL
Please call Zoning/Property Code Enforcement(PCE)
703-792-7018
Our government is there to work for us. We must see that they do just that. These violations must called in. PCE typically makes out for a visit within 7days. Usually, sooner and will keep you up to date as to the status of the case. Also, keep in mind there is “DUE PROCESS”, which by law can take sometime, we are a Dillan Rule State!
The sign says, clean your shoes. How much do they charge for this service ????
[Ed note: comment edited.]
“Now we’ll find out what the penalty is in the city’s zoning ordinances for erecting a billboard in the heart of Manassas City without a permit. I hope it’s a big one.”
IM SURE ITS LIEK A BAJILLION DOLLARS AND SURELY THEY WILL BE ABLE TO COLLECT THE MONEY FROM WHOEVER DID THAT. IT WILL BE A VERY SMOOTH PROCESS.
Your emphasis on stupidity totally missed the mark. Also, you should probably include the state, not everyone knows about the grand city of Manassas.
I rather enjoyed the diatribe about illegal vs legal. I tend to agree with WASP on just about all points. WASP may be privileged, may be in the upper middle class, may be educated, and may be right. I on the other hand have none of the lineage of WASP but in my few years serving this country in the military, volunteering with charity organizations, spending some time in Europe, South America, Central America, Mexico….to name a few, I have come up with my own understanding of what America means and what I support and defend everyday when I wake up !
1. America is not a country rather a state of mind. The founders of this great nation gave unto us a constitution which agree or disagree is not absolute and with the will of the people can be changed.
2. My grandparents (paternal and maternal) suffered through poverty and famine and made way to America to make a better life for their future generations. They were the lowest of low class in their society and America gave them a chance to make a living, not go hungry, have a roof over their head and be treated according to their contributions to the society not their color or religion.
3. In my travels I see the same people as my grandparents. People that look to our great society as an opportunity to provide for their families future. They look nothing like them though because they may be shorter, darker complected, and not have command of the English language, but, they are the same…..willing to do whatever it takes to make a better life. My grandfathers did the work that Americans would not do, they worked in coal mines along with every other immigrant. The pay was below what an “American” would accept. The conditions were horrible and the was no employee health care plan.
4. Before one judges the whole illegal immigration issue you must ask yourself, what would I do if my native land was not able to provide me opportunity to live with an expectation of a brighter future.
I read and see the posts from those that equate illegal immigration with criminality. Do not think that ones moral compass is based upon their immigration status. All I know is this, if my children were hungry and some real estate stood between me and their happiness, I would do what I had to to make sure that they were provided for. Illegal immigration is not the real issue but rather the illegal employment by corporate america. If there were no jobs, there would be no draw. If it was not soo easy for a migrant farm worker to find work at 1.30 an hour perhaps we would not have such a surge in migration. So before we judge to worker, look to the employer. They commit the greater crime. They provide refuge and livelihood to the migrant. They also make it possible for us to pay 2 dollars for a head of Romaine lettuce rather than 10. We all know if an American picked the lettuce they would make at least 12 dollars per hour not counting overtime during harvest and would demand health care benefits (rightfully so) and possible a 401K with employer contribution. The American worker would have unionized and the company that used to employ migrant farm workers will now have no choice but to raise prices of the commodity. Which we would pay at the grocery market. No matter how you slice it . The American taxpayer, consumer, pays! Either through the illegals’ use of government services or at the cash register. Pick your poison.
I believe that many people in this country are bigoted, call me a pessimest but it is my opinion. We are blaming illegals for many of our problems (increased crime, lower property values, higher taxes, etc etc) when the real problem is us. Our own head in the sand attitude about what many believe America to be. True to my experience, this is the land of opportunity, the land of liberty, the land of justice. You do not have to travel too many places in this world to know that despite whatever nationalistic feelings people have, they would rather be here amongst us. My comrades died for this idea (whether you agree or not) . The idea that we are a great nation and being so we have great draw to our borders. Rudolph Giuliani ’s great great grandfather was not on the mayflower. Jack Kennedy’s grandfather did not sign the declaration of independence. Many of us are 2nd 3rd or 4th generation Americans and still understand the privilege it is to live in this country. Why do you think that it is just for you? Give us your tired, your week, your huddled masses………
Ultimately you will never agree with me anyway but I needed to be heard. But in the off chance you want to stem the tide of illegal immigration to your area…….picket your local business that hires illegals and urge them to move or pay an american to do the same job……I will pay 10 dollars for a pint of mushrooms then and I will be happy. Just don’t judge the worker that is just picking on the weak. And every little child knows that is just wrong!