The Costs And Benefits Of Cracking Down
By Greg L | 19 September 2007 | Illegal Aliens, Prince William County | 109 Comments
Chief Charlie Deane presented his proposed probable cause standard for questioning suspected illegal aliens at yesterday’s meeting of the Prince William Board of County Supervisors, along with a somewhat overstated budget estimate of the costs of the program. Chief Deane told the supervisors that he would need an additional $3 million annually over the next five years in order to add staff and train officers, although he previously had managed to create an equestrian unit (what I refer to as the Amazon Police Mounted Cavalry, as the unit is entirely staffed by female officers) for the county police department which required ten officers to obtain ten weeks of training, plus equipment and horses, out of the current police department’s budget. This initiative regarding illegal aliens, which many would argue is more critical to ensuring public safety, apparently requires overtime pay for training and additional staffing that the equestrian unit did not. Hmmm.
Let’s say however that this budget proposal makes perfect sense. Considering an expense without the benefits it may yield isn’t good policy, and while it’s very difficult to quantify with any accuracy what these benefits may be, we can get a decent idea. Prince William County has already quantified some of the costs that illegal aliens impose on the budget, and in January sent a bill to the federal government, which they will certainly ignore, for $3 million to defray the costs of incarcerating criminal illegal aliens and the administrative costs of processing emergency Medicaid applications for illegal aliens. No estimate of the costs of educating illegal aliens in our public schools was made at the time, but this cost would certainly be substantial if not even larger than $3 million annually. Lost revenue at the hospital emergency rooms from illegal aliens who provide false identities, unpaid traffic and civil fines, and the costs of public services provided to illegal aliens haven’t been quantified, but would certainly add to the costs being borne now to support those who shouldn’t be in this country in the first place.
Then there’s the largely unquantifiable costs. How much did residential real estate assessments decline because the quality of life in many neighborhoods has deteriorated so significantly? How many potential homeowners have steered away from Prince William County out of concern for the quality of our schools, the safety of our neighborhoods, and the presence of informal day labor sites? What were the economic impacts of crimes committed by illegal aliens? These intangibles or at least difficult to quantify costs would probably dwarf those that could be more easily quantified.
If we could significantly reduce the number of illegal aliens in our county, and the program that the county police department will soon undertake is clearly expected to do just that, the economic and intangible benefits would make this program probably one of the best investments the county could ever make. The question really isn’t about whether we can afford to take reasonable and cautious measures to reduce the number of illegal aliens in the county, it’s about whether we can afford not to. The price we’re paying now for illegal immigration is far higher than we can bear.
Maybe Arlington County can afford to support illegal aliens, but we can’t.
The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.
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Other parts of the country are reacting in their own ways:
SIMI VALLEY, Calif. — A church that is sheltering an illegal immigrant from Mexico and her U.S.-born infant son will be billed nearly $40,000 for the city police presence during a weekend protest, officials said.
Mayor Paul Miller, who called United Church of Christ congregants irresponsible for “harboring an illegal immigrant,” told the City Council Monday that he was ready to issue the $39,306 invoice right away.
The church’s decision to shelter the woman provoked the Sunday protest, which required a police presence, officials said.
“This City Council has the obligation to protect all citizens in the community against any potential violence as a result of these ill-conceived actions,” Miller said.
A message left early Wednesday with the United Church of Christ was not immediately returned.
An anti-illegal immigration group organized the protest and said it hoped to make a citizen’s arrest of the woman, who has identified herself only as Liliana. The rally drew over a hundred activists on both sides of the illegal immigration debate.
Between four and 15 officers were present during the three-hour rally, with two sheriff’s tactical response teams on standby, police Chief Mike Lewis said.
The woman has been living in the church’s former parsonage as part of the New Sanctuary Movement, which arranges church accommodations for illegal immigrants in the U.S.
City officials said they previously advised United Church of Christ Rev. June Goudey against taking in Liliana, who had earlier been sheltered at a church in Long Beach.
“This city is not going to be known as sanctuary city,” Miller said.
Arlington County Board Resolution Supporting Arlington’s Newcomers
http://www.arlingtonva.us/Departments/CountyBoard/proclamations/page57753.pdf
Arlington County Board Members
Paul Ferguson -
Chairman
pferguson@arlingtonva.us
J. Walter Tejada -
Vice-Chairman
wtejada@arlingtonva.us
Barbara Favola -
Member
bfavola@arlingtonva.us
Jay Fisette -
Member
jfisette@arlingtonva.us
Christopher Zimmerman -
Member
czimmerman@arlingtonva.us
I told the PWCBOS yesterday, we can generate some revunue in the county if Zoning violations, had more fines. They are considering raising the fees on overcrowding. I say let’s start giving citation with fees on the first visit.
The cost of doing nothing has gotten us in this mess, and it’s costing us way more than implementation of police dept.
Over the next five years we could use 15 million dollars on other things. Our transportation problems are getting worse we should use that money on roads. Let the federal government pick up the tab for the mess they let happen with illegal immigration. Not the taxpayers of Prince William County.
“Let the federal government pick up the tab for the mess they let happen with illegal immigration. Not the taxpayers of Prince William County.”
Well, you know where the Federal Government gets their money don’t you?
MP: You are sooo right. That being said, when would the Fed Govt EVER pay??? Their motto is, “Our mistake, your fault.”
“Well, you know where the Federal Government gets their money don’t you?”
Yes, not all from Prince William County taxpayers.
As usual, government cost estimates are way off base. As is too often he case, no one has factored in the long term effect of a governemtn program or tax on behaviour.
If the PWC resolution costs PWC police three million per year, and the county budget is $830 million, then the increase is just over 1/3 of one percent (.36, to be exact) of the overall budget. If a tax increase is needed at all, it would only be a few dollars per household.
In addition, that figure would only hold true in the first year. Other communities that have cracked down on illegal immigration, or in some cases even threatened a crack down, have seen illegal populations drop dramatically. As this population moves on, the cost of dealing with them and the problems they cause our community will lessen.
how about fines for local businesses employing illegal aliens?
“then the increase is just over 1/3 of one percent (.36, to be exact)”
Not quite true, you forgot the revenue sharing with the schools so if you raise it 3 million for the PD, you have to raise the total budget by about 6.1 million to accomodate the school’s percentage of the budget. Great windfall for the schools, maybe they’ll hire some more administrative staff.
As the illegal population declines, beds in our jail should open up, and we should be able to rent space to ICE and Arlington.
Just a question for the experts to flush out: Supervisor Jenkins yesterday said “in order to pay for this program we will need to raise the tax rate 15 cents”. Supervisor Barg also chimed along with the dire situation this causes for Prince William County for enforcing this regulation. Under the current fiscal budget we have currently for every .01 on the tax rate it raises approximately $3,000,000. Even under upcoming depressed assessments every .01 will raise approximately $2,675,000 (according to budget forecasted numbers). Do Supervisor Jenkins and Barg think this program will run $40,125,000 - $45,000,000? They must be using the accountants of the firm of Pander, Scare and Obfuscate. They also must have have been asleep during Chief Dean presentation as he clearly stated that the estimated cost of enforcing this regulation is only $3m. I think Jenkins and Barg are more interested in scaring people away from this policy by using the sky is falling tactics. It just further demonstrates that Barg and Jenkins only voted for this resolution in order to say they vote for it before they voted against it. That reminds me of…
Just my Thoughts-
Trent A. Barton
One of the speakers at yesterday’s BOCS meeting was a Hispanic real estate broker from Culpeper. He said he was no longer taking clients to PWC, and also said that he was not going to invest in property in PWC as had been his plan. If his clients are illegals, I’m happy he’s staying out of our County.
More foreclosures and the movement of illegal boarders to more accomodating jurisdictions is resulting in a surplus of reasonably priced houses in the county. We should take advantage of this situation. We should do what we can to spread the word to local teachers, policemen, firemen, military, and other fine Americans in the area that affordable housing is available. The message should be that we welcome them into our neighborhoods and they can help us rebuild and recover from the scourge of an illegal invasion, while reaping the benefit of the resulting increase in property values.
Trent, using your figures you would still have to raise it by .03 to cover for the school’s portion of the budget or in my case roughly $120.00. That is of course if the only thing they raise the rate to cover is PD enforcement. If other as yet undefined mechanisms must also be funded to enforce the resolution each mechanism must also be funded at twice the estimate due to revenue sharing. This goes directly to my assertion of yesterday that at some point the cost of enforcement is going to have a deleterious effect. Although enforcement may ultimately (and thats a big may given the multitude of factors involved in real estate) raise property values, is that potential realization offset by the harm caused by the addition of more properties to an already flooded market not to mention the negative impact of a higher tax rate on potential homebuyers. Again, I don’t think most people are looking at the big picture here (you should be smarter than that) and will be surprised by the unintended consequences.
Lastly, if the BOCS is forced to raise the tax rate by “x”% to cover enforcement or implementation of the resolution, how does that impact its ability to fund other (and in my personal view more pressing) infrastructure and public safety concerns.
Mom
The BOCS needs to toughen the County’s noise disturbance ordinance. They can do this without permission from Richmond and despite Dillon Rule restrictions. One of the biggest problems with illegals in our neighborhood is noise (at all hours of the day and night) from their car stereos, and stereos being played very loudly in and outside their houses. The ordinance is not strict enough as it is currently written, and fines for violations need to be increased.
In addition to toughening the law, enforcement needs to be more vigorous. We’ve called the police many times about noise problems. They told us that current policy is to visit the residence three times (the same day; not in total) before citing the violators. The violators start their three times afresh every day.
Noise ordinance violations will also give the police an additional opportunity to check immigration status and identify illegals for deportation. If nothing else, the illegals might cease blasting their car stereos at 2:00 AM while driving up and down our street from fear of being caught and deported.
Here’s one way of helping the Police Department’s finances. Noise ordinance violators should be cited with a high-fine offense on the officers’ first visit — one visit rather than three each day, and a higher fine for the violation.
On another matter discussed in some of the comments in this thread, the BOCS needs to enact a policy immediately to revoke the exemption from paying property taxes for any church or other tax-exempt organization that harbors illegals. Harboring illegals is already a crime. Moreover, harboring an illegal is a political statement rather than a humanitarian act. Deporting someone back to Mexico or a Central American nation is not analogous to sending someone back to the gulag in the days of the Soviet Union or to one of Saddam’s torture chambers. Committing crimes and getting involved in political activities are both grounds for revoking any church’s tax-exempt status.
when I get issues with noise (as I have in my neighborhood from time to time) I just call the PW PD. They seem to respond pretty quickly in my neck of the woods.
Concerned
I have similarly complained to Stirrups office regarding the noise ordinance, particularly with loud cars. The forwarded it to the police department whose response was the pulled someone over on portsmouth road the other day. From my house i hear every 5 minutes some one violating the vehicle ordinance, which no car shall be heard more the 50 feet away. I am not sure why getting the County to enforce the existing property codes, and getting police to enforce some pretty standard quality of life ordinance is like pulling teeth. I believe laziness on these standard enforcements is what led us to this situation in the first place.
You must be taking a page out of the play book from Flip Flop Scott because that was not the tone your message when you spoke during citizen’s time. You complimented the Chief’s plan. Run the numbers for the officers to fill the posistions. He’s right.
Concerned said on 19 Sep 2007 at 12:48 pm:
AMEN!
Arizona says they are loosing about 100 illegals a day (going back across the border in vehicles loaded with appliances) since they passed their new anti-illegal laws recently. It is working there.
What I see now is my neighborhood deteriorating whilst my property taxes go up. We’ve tried ignoring the issue and I suspect this is why I’m seeing what I do. If it costs a little extra to start cracking down on the problem then perhaps the benefits to the community will be worth it.
Someone mentioned transportation. That’s tied into this issue as well–what are the impacts of a lot of unlicensed, uninsured drivers on our roads?
I’ll tell you one impact. My year sticker got stolen right off my plates, as it was parked in my neighborhood. Now I just have to wonder…is it that the thief (1) couldn’t afford to register their car for another year (what is that, like $25?), (2) their car won’t pass emissions, or (3) their car is not insured?
Or some or all of the above?
“and getting police to enforce some pretty standard quality of life ordinance is like pulling teeth”
It’s because of an unofficial policy of “depolicing”. They leave the illegals alone because it’s too much of a hassle to deal with them.
Josh:
The PWC Police do respond to noise complaints - I agree with you. However, they have told us that Chief Deane’s policy is to issue no citation unless it’s the third visit to the same residence on the same day. The officers are wasting their time on repeated visits to the same violators. Moreover, the illegals in those overcrowded boarding houses realize that, at least up until now, all the police can do on the first two visits is to tell them to get quiet, and that they will not be checked for immigration status. The sense I got from the officers on the street was that they want to help the legal citizens but department policy prevents them from doing so. This is not much of an incentive, as things stand now, for illegals to act as good members of our community.
“Advocator said on 19 Sep 2007 at 12:00 pm:
One of the speakers at yesterday’s BOCS meeting was a Hispanic real estate broker from Culpeper. He said he was no longer taking clients to PWC, and also said that he was not going to invest in property in PWC as had been his plan. If his clients are illegals, I’m happy he’s staying out of our County.”
This is precisely what we want to happen….self-attrition!
Which costs nothing!
Wow. Off topic, but the response I wrote last week to Larry Bell’s piece was in the MJM today.
Mando - it was a very good LTE!
BTW, All Saints hosted local candidates again - check out http://vadp.org/events/death-penalty-events/september-18—candidates-forum—chance-to-raise-the-issue-of-capital-punishment.html
Also of course immigration was talked about.
I would have to say the Chief’s estimates sound a bit high, but I see these as “start-up” costs. The costs will diminish over time, and, the benefits, both in hard-dollar and soft-dollar savings terms, will far exceed the costs.
Greg, I know that you are passionate about this subject however I think that your remark regarding female PWC Police Officers is incredibly sexist and does nothing to bolster your arguments about the county’s ability to finance the resolution. If you expect people to take you seriously as a spokes person for HSM you might want to practice a little more prudence in your comments. You could for example start by making a public apology on your blog to those offices. Just a thought.
HSM voice of the people? I think not.
An amazon is a female warrior. Sexist?
Nice try Craig! You are taking what Greg said out of context to stir the pot! Do you live in Arlington by any chance Craig?
Advocator
I’ve told the PWCBOS on several occassions what an opportunity we have to get teacher, police, first responders, etc. back into the county. The banks are selling these house under cost, as they should due condition of houses.
Excuse my ignorance on the inner workings of police training, but how in the heck does it cost a police department $3 million dollars to get your police force to follow a set probable cause standard in asking suspected illegal aliens a few key questions?
I’m not trained in law enforcement, nor trained as an attorney, but I think I could take a crack at writing a short handbook on the subject and teach a Saturday morning seminar to the police force on the subject. That’s just from information I’ve gotten off of this blog, mixed with some of my own common sense! I’ll do it for free too.
Mom-
Great questions and I will submit a response for two separate budget impacting scenarios since we are into hypothesizing to the real cost associated with enforcement of the law.
First scenario I will use the school impact. We can only estimated numbers from what the cost for illegal immigration on our schools since Prince William County doesn’t collect such information. Additionally, PWCS can not deny an education to an illegal alien student per several court rulings. The Prince William County Public Schools FY 2008 budget is $755,672,102 (average $10,496 per pupil expenditure) for educating 72,000 students. Conservative estimates are that 5% (3,600 students) of the student population is from the illegal immigrant community. Typically the illegal immigrants don’t own the house they live in or multiple families live in one house owned by one of the residents. Even if the owner of the house pays property taxes it is often quickly outweighed to the cost associated with educating the multiple children. The cost of educating the illegal immigrant student in Prince William County Public Schools is estimated $37,785,600. If because of this resolution it deters just 150 illegal immigrant families (estimate 2 children per family—again conservative) to go somewhere else, i.e. Arlington, Fairfax or south, the impact of this resolution will have a zero based budget effect for the schools. In fact the most likely outcome is he schools will have a cost savings.
Second scenario will be the local social services impact. Social services that serve Prince William County are approximately 8 % of the current county budget. County Budget for FY 2007 is $660,062,000 which means the social services portion of the budget is $55,467,240. Again using the same very conservative 5% estimation above means we would be saving $2,773,362. That would almost be the same budgetary expenditure that Chief Dean outlined. I submit that the budget impact for this resolution would be positive savings both monetarily and quality of life.
Just my thoughts-
Trent A. Barton
Clean it up in ‘07,
You are not alone there’s several us in WestGate/Sudley are with you. Patty could even help teach, she home schools. I wonder what the Citizen’s Police Academy is like. Oh, can citizens get ICE training too? I report so much stuff to Zoning, PWPD, All Supervisors’ offices, what ever it takes to get clean this place up.
ALL CONCERNED RESIDENTS.
I’ve just gotten some pamphets from the county. They have a lot of very usful information, codes, and phone numbers. I will have this with me at the next HSM meeting. They are very handy, and I’d like to add the are in both English and Spanish. I will be delivering these to some of the regular violators houses. We deserve and clean, safe and healty community for all citizens.
It is true that we (by law) must educate the children of illegal aliens. There is no other choice. But, why can’t the state/county/city request proof of citizenship from every repeat every family enrolling a chid in school?
Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202 (1982), was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States struck down a state statute denying funding for education to children who were illegal immigrants. The Court found that where states limit the rights afforded to people based on their status as aliens, this limitation must be examined under an intermediate scrutiny standard to determine whether it furthers a substantial goal of the State.
Trent:
Although the cost savings are open to debate, for the purpose of this arguement I would accept your cost savings. The problem is that those cost savings if actually realized would not be reported in a manner that would force the various departments to acknowledge the savings and thus cut their FTE or budgets. You and I both know that administrative agencies at every level of government protect their budget and FTE with the ferocity of a bear defending her cub. As a result, even if the savings are realized, there would likely not be a corresponding reduction in budgetary or FTE requirements as those agencies typically spend the allocated monies and resources on other programs, often wasteful programs, in order to justify at least an equivalent budget mark and FTE in the next budget cycle. Good luck breaking that cycle as the system has all the advantages. The only hope is that Corey both survives this election (I’m not taking bets on that given the ineptitude of his campaign to this point) and lives up to his promises to clean house.
Mom
I feel like I’m living in Bizarro World. The same supervisors, namely Jenkins and Caddigan, are complaining about raising taxes when only months ago they were complaining that Chairman Stewart was not raising taxes enough to support the police and fire dept. They said public safety increases were vital. It seems to me that is exactly what Chief Deane has proposed, although his proposal is a little higher that I would believe.
So now I’m supposed to believe Supervisors Jenkins and Caddigan are AGAINST tax increases for additional police forces? Where is Hilda Barg in all this? I can’t believe she hasn’t also jumped on the no tax increase bandwagon.
I hope someone tapes these remarks and plays them on a loudspeaker as we go into the budget sessions next spring.
“It is true that we (by law) must educate the children of illegal aliens. There is no other choice. But, why can’t the state/county/city request proof of citizenship from every repeat every family enrolling a chid in school?”
You are assuming thta the kids of illegal aliens are not american citizens.
anon @ 3:56pm
I got so disgusted when the bickering just wouldn’t stop, I got out my camera, and put it on video mode, and started recording. I just couldn’t believe it. Well, remember Hilda won’t be there.
WAKE UP WOODBRIDGE!!!
SUPPORT AND VOTE FOR CHRIS ROYSE!!!!
I’ll be recording the PWCBOS Meeting when it reairs at 7:30pm, on Channel 23, also Thursay and Friday night at 7:30pm
Also, on Saturday and Sunday at 10 am. Do miss it!
Where is Good Time Charlie with the figures! IF anyone know what Charlie Deane is thinking it’s going to be GTC.
Sounds to me like Deane is trying to use an excuse he can not to inforce the resoultion so he can keep his promise to the hispanic community.
Once again people, Deane day has passed. Ge him out of there.
Maybe he should attend policy 101-you already have the manpower and a lot of the calls are for the illegals. Sounds like killing two birds with one stone to me.
” Amazon Mounted Police Calvary” sounds like someone has issues with woman with authority. Hmmmmm….
anon said on 19 Sep 2007 at 4:01 pm:
I assume correctly. Not everyone is an “anchor baby.” Not every dependent of an illegal is an “anchor baby.”
Anon: The Supreme Court said in Plyler v. Doe that a state could not use illegal alien status to deprive children of that state’s educational benefits. That makes good policy sense, regardless of the legalities. Some states and state education boards have misinterpreted that ruling to mean that a school system or governmental authority is prohibited from inquiring into, or requesting proof of citizenship, for other purposes, for example, getting a handle on how much educating illegal aliens is costing. The argument is that merely requesting such proof would dissuade families from exercising the right to have their children educated. My answer to that argument is that merely requiring children to wear clothes to school might dissuade the children of nudists from going to school, but we still have the rule to be properly attired because it serves a legitimate state purpose.
But to get back to your question - it’s simply state board of education policy not to ask for legal status. There is nothing in the Virginia Code, Plyler v. Doe, or anything else to prevent the Board of County Supervisors from requiring the County Board of Education to require each student to either show proof of citizenship or legal residence or to be counted as an illegal alien, as long as the illegal aliens are still afforded the same educational benefits as everyone else, and, the reason for requiring the info serves a legitimate governmental purpose. The purpose of accumulating data to project educational expenses and to request assistance or reimbursement from the federal government because this county is educating more of its fair share of illegals should be considered a legitimate purpose for such a policy.
But if the county did inquire into the legal status of students, you could bet your last tamale that the Ricardo Juarez’s of the region would dig up all kinds of tearful bambinos that would claim they were too scared to go to school because their info just might end up in the files of ICE. The reality is, the schools would not turn the info over to ICE, and if they did, ICE wouldn’t do anything about it.
Hilda is on her way out,and she probably doesn’t want to make it harder for her # 1 choice . #1 choice will do as Hilda wants and Jenkins. We need to remember this in going to the Polls. It takes 4 to get an issue through and 5 is better. Many times a 4 vote will be a tie and the matter could be dropped.
Chief Deane gave a good presentation and we need to go forward.
We have been in need of more Police Officers, so why not for a good cause.We must protect our neighborhoods and our quality of Life.
We need to make sure all Ordinaces are updated and a good fine attached to each of them. This slap on the wrist has got to go.
Most definately Woodbridge needs Chris Royse.
Any others will be a complete disaster for Woodbridge. Keen wants illegals to have Section 8 Housing. Ramerize protests with Woodbride Workers and Unity in the Community at Rt. One and Pr. Wm. Prky.
Spread the word for Royse.
Well, Greg, when you resort to name calling, you lose credibility with me. Amazon Mounted Police? The horseback police woman look small to average size. And if you ask, they inform you that the police don’t own any horses, nor do they feed or house them. And the equipment was nearly all donated. I agree that you owe those officers an apology.
Ohh Geez. Lighten up Frances, it was a joke. Libs and their delicate feelings. Grow a thicker skin pls, thx.
Royse is the only candidate in Woodbridge that has a public position on illegal immigration. His unwavering support for enforcing the law has earned him the Law Enforcement Alliance of American endorsement. All the other candidates have sided with the illegal immigrant community one way or another. We need a supervisor that understands the issue, take a stand and doesn’t waiver–period That candidate is Chris Royse.
Just my Thoughts-
Trent A. Barton
Horse Fan: You have got to be kidding. Grow up.
Re: The Prince William County Equestrian Unit
This unit was created to go into places where vehicles cannot go, such as fields, woods and for crowd control when needed. These horses are owned by individuals not the county. They are neither housed nor fed by the county.
To refer to the women who serve in this unit as ‘Amazons’ is a slur. Read Odysseus or Jason and the Argonauts for more information as to why. To call any woman an ‘Amazon’ is never a compliment.
Greg nailed it. If Deane wants to do something, it costs nothing. If he doesn’t , it will cost a lot. Being as untouchable as he is, he fails to see how transparent that logic is.
realistically, the “problem” has already begun to disappear - as evidenced by the realtor of the illegals. We will gladly pay another couple hundred bucks for getting rid of our problem, which will go away, but what will we do with all this extra “staff” - we’ll keep ‘em, give them a slick name and claim to be saving the world, one budget over run after the next.
George Orwell may have been on to something….
MRFII -
I don’t know about that - I’m 5′11″ and have been called an Amazon Woman most of my life. I take it as a complement.
corr: Compliment
“she’s built like an amazon” is a complement…
listen to the song “Brick house”… lol
anonymous - to each his own
Advocator said on 19 Sep 2007 at 5:26 pm:
Thanks for the answer to my question. I knew that education had to be provided but couldn’t understand why the school systems could not or would not determine the status of everyone attending public school. If the school systems had the figures on how many illegals were being provided a “free” education, then maybe the local governments would furnish the federal government the costs associated with providing the schooling and could attempt to claim reimbursement. thanks again for the clarification.
Anonymous:
You’re welcome.
All this talk about horsey women is getting me excited. And they’re in uniforms?! And they got badges? OMG! Why didn’t you tell me about them, Greg? I’m breaking out in a sweat just thinking about it.
Advocator
Don’t forget they also carry guns. You’ve gotta love that too!
I must admit, I pointed this female fact out to him at the fair while signing folks up for HSM.
Advocator
pointed this “female fact” out to Greg L.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again Woodbridge wake up, you need Chris Royse. Twenty years is a very long time, now Rip Van Hilda, can sleep at home instead of at Citizen’s time. I must say though she was awake for Chief Charlie and Citizen’s time yesterday.
I forgot the most important part of my message.
http://www.chrisroyse.com/
It seems to me that if the illegals self deport out of the county then the schools will be able to cut back on a bunch of English as a second language teachers which will be a savings to all of us. As well as the kids in the classrooms will get more attention since the teachers won’t have to focus on the ones who aren’t picking up the lesson because of their limited English command and maybe all the test scores will go up if the kids get more attention and are able to cover more material throughout the year.
Self deportation, EXCELLENT! I’ve been thinking about the schools. They get their final numbers 9/30 of students. Then after that more house are going to be foreclosed on, also the self deportation will kick in as more effects of the resolution are implemented. Then we have less students in the county, not as many “free meals”, not as many ESOL teachers. The student will drop after 9/30/07, I’m confident. I’ve seen four house vacate since 7/10/07 on my life long block alone. Then we’ll have a huge savings accross the board just in the schools alone. Now, let’s get county employees living in PWC again, as the price are more affordable. Oh, and as all this happens the “red carpet” will be getting rolled up. I love it. We must keep up the momentum!!
Lafayette, self deportation is the goal! I was watching Rep. Steve King last night and he stated that that is realistic. He said something to the effect…they got here somehow and they will leave somehow. Costs nothing!
“Then we’ll have a huge savings accross the board just in the schools alone. Now, let’s get county employees living in PWC again, as the price are more affordable.”
And that’s just what they want you to think. It may be great in theory but for practical purposes it doesn’t have much basis in reality. Even if the number of students dropped a couple of percentage points, it would be spread across a large number of schools and grade levels essentially making a reduction in staffing and services difficult if not impossible without drastic redistricting of heavily impacted neighborhoods.
Face it, you have all been sucked in by a bunch of empty suits demagoguing on this issue for perceived personal gain, be it the upcoming elections or designs on higher office. This resolution is as watered down as the previous resolution on rezoning. Has anyone noticed that the BOCS hasn’t really lived up to that resolution and that its net effect will be an avalanche of rezoning hearings shortly after the election.
Many of you speak to cost savings in the long term, as I stated before, that’s not how bureaucracies typically operate and few amongst the general public have the resources or skills to combat the county executive’s or staff’s built in advantage. More to the point, how much have the required studies on impact and implementation cost to this point and have those figures been factored into the equations. Similarly, does anyone have a real sense of what the potential cost of near certain litigation is both in terms of settlements and legal fees. The latter is likely to be a dramatic figure as I don’t see the county attorney having the resources and skills to wage a defense about constitutional issues at the State Supreme Court.
This is little more than smoke and mirrors designed to enhance current and future political campaigns and/or deflect attention from more pressing issues, those tiresome roads, infrastructure and development issues; issues they really don’t want to address because of their own vested interests.
For those of you that believe those issues will be addressed as a windfall side effect of the resolution’s implementation, you’re also fooling yourselves. Those displaced from the county will still have to live someplace, likely still in the region and thus still on the road and not significantly reducing the number of unisured, unlicensed, etc. operators. Similarly, although the houses being vacated may create the opportunity for county employees to locate “affordable” housing, at what cost will that come. Is it a wise idea to flood a depressed market with additional units, units with title issues and many likely in poor condition or stripped of anything of value. Above and beyond the fact that it would likely force the average resale price down, from a longer term perspective, it likely reduce the assessed value of neighboring homes thus reducing the equity and potential taxes paid under the current rate and forcing an increase in the rate during future budget cycles. Hope none of you that bought at the peak of the boom or with home equity or second mortgages needs to move in the next couple of years without taking a huge hit.
In short, most of you seem very short-sighted and don’t appear to have considered the long-term impacts. That having been said, to this point I have steadfastly supported both Stewart and Stirrup and though I can’t bring myself to vote for either Pandak or Riley, I can see myself casting write in votes for Mickey Mouse or Bozo because if I’m going to vote for a cartoon or a clown I’m going to at least vote for one that attained their status legitimately.
Mom
Anonymous Mom:
Your caveats are well taken. We still have a lot of work to do. Anyone declaring victory now and going back to his/her plow is not doing us any good. The politicians use us for their purposes, and we use them for ours. I believe the correct word is symbiosis. I’ve got no problem with those who have supported us going on to more influential offices at the state or federal level. In fact, I look forward to supporting them. Lord knows some at those levels need replaced, as I’ve been castigated previously for being so specific about them.
As far as displacing illegals from PWC to some other county, that’s partial victory in my book. As I’ve said before, first we’ll take back our neighborhoods, then the county, then the Commonwealth, and then the Country. It’s a long process, and there will be growing pains (and potential violence), but if we stay focused, it’ll happen. And if it doesn’t, at least we can say we gave it our best shot.
People who have to sell their houses in the next few years are going to take a hit, more due to economic forces beyond our control than because illegals are unassing. Fluctuations in the housing market are a fact of life. The Army moved me here in 1990 and I had to buy at the height of a real estate boom, and in the next two-three years my house lost about 20% of its value. Illegal immigration was not a factor in that cycle. I don’t think it’s much in this one.
Both the long and short term effects of the presence of illegal aliens and dealing with them have been debated ad nauseum in this blog and other publications. I prefer to look at non-economic factors because I believe they have a longer term effect. The bottom line is, our culture is based upon the rule of law. Ignoring the law in any one area discredits and erodes that entire base. Illegals are literally dying to get into this country because of the benefits the Rule of Law has conferred on us. They leave their own slum-ridden, rat infested, corrupt and failed societies because the Rule of Law is not respected there. The result of that lack of respect are entire continents of failed governments, despite the richness of natural resources that they have at their disposal. I’ve seen most of this world, and believe me, the Rule of Law is the only differential between us and them. If you sacrifice it to enjoy the short-term benefits of cheap labor, you’ve cursed your children’s children to live in the same standard of living of the countries from whence the illegals are trying to escape.
anon @ 8:53am/mom
First off why be anon? Why can’t you post as Mom?
I’ve stated so many devasting stories on here, as to the quality of life issuses. I can’t put a price tag on quality of life, can YOU?
Simply it’s like this less illegals we have to support in so many ways. I won’t list them out here again. You’ve read what I and others have wrote.
Do you live in a hard hit neighborhood?
Do you live in PWC or the 2 cities?
I’ve lived on the same block my entire life. This was once a neighborhood, where Senator Colgan, PWCBOS Members, PWC School Board Members, teachers, principals,law enforcement officers, judges, and many Federal Government employees as well. That’s not the kind of neighbors I have today, and propped open storm doors too.
I really won’t waste anymore time on this with you until I find out why you can’t post as mom. I’m sure this was done for GOOD REASON. I don’t care too much for anons, why hide?
Yes, I do post as Lafayette, my name is on this blog, and usually don’t miss a citizen’s time since 6/5/07. So, just so you know I’ve got no problem what soever giving my name.So why do you hide under anon again?
Signed
CHRIS PANNELL
Advocator
It is ALL about the RULE OF LAW absolutely. There are some around here that need to be aware. We need to learn it, know it, and live it!
I really must wonder why can’t she post as Mom. If I thought she were a politician or an official I understand “anon” then, however I don’t get the feeling she’s either one.
I’m with you I want them out of my native PWC. It’s really just a short drive over the Potomac River, to Monrgomery and PG Counties.
We’ve paid the price long enough. The time has come that we the legal citizens will no longer tolerate the effects of the “ILLEGAL ALIEN INVASION”
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!
Lafayette, I have posting that way as Greg has chosen to block numerous posts when I post directly under Mom and occasionally in this format. Greg apparently doesn’t care for some dissenting opinions, particularly when they’re documented.
BTW, I do live in PWC and as for “hard hit neighborhoods”, the residents of those neighborhoods bear as much of the blame for their condition as the BOCS. I don’t live in one as I, and my neighbors, ensure it doesn’t start down that path. That’s a course of action I have taken in every neighborhood I’ve lived in, one must often be proactive in order to protect one’s interests, action that does come at a personal expense and I speak from experience on that .
Advocator, I take issue with some of your positions however, at least you’re looking at the bigger picture and can make an arguement in favor of your view, that can’t be said about others in this echo-chamber.
Mom
Advocator, I take issue with some of your positions however, at least you’re looking at the bigger picture and can make an arguement in favor of your view, that can’t be said about others in this echo-chamber.
Lafayette, I have posting that way as Greg has chosen to block numerous posts (including this one) when I post directly under Mom and occasionally in this format. Greg apparently doesn’t care for some dissenting opinions, particularly when they’re documented.
BTW, I do live in PWC and as for “hard hit neighborhoods”, the residents of those neighborhoods bear as much of the blame for their condition as the BOCS. I don’t live in one as I, and my neighbors, ensure it doesn’t start down that path. That’s a course of action I have taken in every neighborhood I’ve lived in, one must often be proactive in order to protect one’s interests, action that does come at a personal expense and I speak from experience on that .
Mom
“Is it a wise idea to flood a depressed market with additional units, units with title issues and many likely in poor condition or stripped of anything of value.”
That’s going to happen anyway, unless Congress manages to bail these homeowners out.
Some of the reasons for the high cost are:
Training - The County will be sued over this - make no mistake about it, so you can’t, as “Clean it up” said, teach legal from a small book. Each Officer will have to be documented as attending training. There are over 500 PWCPD officers. Salaries for each to attend training are part of that costs.
Additional Officers and 1 Supervisor to enforce the new policy -
When an officer contacts ICE, it can take up to five or six hours for a response from the Feds. In the meantime, that officer is off the street and not answering calls for service. So by requesting the additional officer and supervisor, it may reduce the time a street officer is tied up waiting for ICE to act. Remember, only ICE can deport anyone.
When a new FTE (full time employee) is hired for the PWCPD, you have to factor in the hiring process cost, six months at the training academy (at full salary), a police vehicle (excess of $35,000 with equipment) plus benefits (medical, retirement etc.) so the expenses for six additional officers can easily reach several hundred thousand dollars.
I support the actions taken and will gladly support paying the price but the costs were not inflated.
“That’s going to happen anyway”
Would like to mention that as of the last time I checked, PWC had a 14-month oversupply of homes on the market.
When you’ve got an oversupply that large you’re already in big trouble.
Mom
FYI, I’ve been calling Zoning on issues for about 10 years now.
DON’T YOU DARE BLAME ME!!!! Blame the Feds, The Commonwealth and other officials. I’ve been active my whole life and I more active with each passing day.
I wouldn’t like it, but I have no objection to paying higher taxes to support the implementation, and costs to come. I don’t think I’m alone here. I heard one life long resident like myself state this very thing at citizen’s time. She along with Patty have also been calling Zoning for years now. DON’T BLAME THEM EITHER!!
What have YOU done to better our community?
Blocked Again Greg??
“What have YOU done to better our community?”
I’d like to think quite a bit, and I believe my neighbors would support that thought. Been to BOCS meetings here and in Fairfax, spoken, sat on panels, called, etc. in short, been there, done that, will continue to do it as there is a never ending supply of issues to be addressed particularly when you largely get lip services from the BOCS unless you really push them or they need your support come election time.
For what its worth, if one is only going to address the BOCS occasionally, format and attire are a marginal concern, if however you’re going to do it on a continuing basis have your thoughts prepared and dress appropriately if you expect to be taken seriously. In other words, don’t wing it and lose the t-shirt and jean jacket in favor of something a little more presentable, it will only augment your credibility. Don’t take that personally, I’m only giving you my experience from both sides of the dais.
BTW, Greg, an HSM t-shirt is probably not appropriate attire for a fund-raiser, particularly one with assorted “dignitaries” present. If you’re going to represent an organization, often image is everything.
Mom
Mom
I’ve done more than address the PWCBOS, ask just about anyone, and I’m sure they will tell you the same. I would never take anything YOU or anyone on this blog personally. However, you should remember we are CITIZENS and NOT PROFESSIONAL LOBBYST, at least I’m not. I’ve got far more important things to do than waste my time with you for now.
I think it’s time for Greg to block you again, quite frankly.
“I’ve got far more important things to do than waste my time with you for now.
I think it’s time for Greg to block you again, quite frankly.”
So I guess achieving lasting results or taking constructive criticism are not your strong points and you prefer to have Greg help you bury your head in the sand by blocking dissenting views. If you want to play the game at this level and on these issues I would suggest getting a thicker skin and listening a little more to those who have been down the road before. You may not agree with the position ascribed but you may learn a little about how to manipulate the process, and yes I meant manipulate because ultimately that’s what it takes.
Mom
Mom, I’ve flagged you for moderation based on some past behavior. Your comments will appear after I’ve had a chance to see them. If you were blocked, as you say, you wouldn’t be able to even read the site.
Play nicely, and you’ll be released from moderation.
My skin is plenty think.
I do NOT need Greg’s help!! Oh, please!!
Get a grip, I’m a grown woman, with a very open mind. I think you might misunderstand me somewhat. I have listened to what you’ve said, and I have and will continue to consider it. I do have a job as a title examiner in PWC, and I’m all to aware of the foreclosures, I told the PWCBOS about this a week before it was on the news or in the papers. Not to mention I’ve got several neighborhoods I’m working on getting clean up right now. They are not all in my native Gainesville District either, I do see past my front door.
I can see very clearly that you know all about manipulation, look how you have to post.
You if stopped and thought about a minute, sounds like we both want good for our community, and that’s what I’m about improving our county.
corr
If you stopped…
http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/story.html?id=eb24c2f6-7372-4da6-abdc-806fad175d18&k=57287
Illegals going to Canada! Maybe we should work with Canada to prevent any kind of sanctuary!
@The Patriot’s article
They’re complaining about 200 people? I mean, did I read that right?? 200 people???
Just remember mando…a few illegals show up and then after a period of time a place gets overrun! At least they have enough sense to recognize that a problem is brewing!
I realize I’m “late to the party” on this post, but still feel the need to address the many folks that are critical of Greg and his comments in his threads. You folks need to separate the roles of “Greg the Blogger” from “Greg, President of HSM”. “Greg the Blogger” is intentionally commenting on matters in a provocative manner to stimulate discussion and increase visits to the BVBL blog. Obviously it is working as his blog is the #1 blog site in NOVA. However, for perspectives of “the President of HSM” on matters related to illegal immigration you need to go to www.helpsavemanassas.org to get them, not here. Don’t mix the two roles together.
Greg, perhaps to make the distinction clearer how about a disclaimer on any thread that relates to illegal immigration matters? Thanks.
On today’s Washington Times: “PARIS — The welcome mat is vanishing for immigrants in France as lawmakers debate tough new legislation and the government seeks to enforce deportation quotas for illegal aliens.
A draft bill, set for vote by the French National Assembly as early as tomorrow, would establish new requirements for would-be immigrants, including language and cultural values exams. Its more controversial clauses would introduce voluntary DNA testing and legalize some data gathering based on race and ethnicity.”
Source: http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070920/FOREIGN/109200108/1001
I DARE say to ANYBODY that WE have (or want to have) tough immigration laws. Paris is talking about DNA testing, folks!!!
They better hurry up and complete that highway from Mexico to Canada. Canada might neet it sooner than they expected!
http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/story.html?id=eb24c2f6-7372-4da6-abdc-806fad175d18&k=57287
John, they are basically saying melt into our melting pot or go home! What is wrong with that? A sovereign nation has the right to do that!
“A sovereign nation has the right to do that!”
Unless it’s the USA. Then it’s supposed to be the flophouse for the world, apparently.
A “cultural values” test in France. They would have to include a question on how to prepare protected songbirds as a meal for dying presidents.
MP - glad you understood.
The Patriot, you must be new here because then you would know my position on immigration. I am in full support of what Great Britain is doing, “You learn our language or go home” position. I have written at length on immigration and illegal immigration, so no need to go into that again, but MP is 100% correct. When it comes to the U.S. the Dems (and a few Rs) have exposed themselves for the anarchists that they are. If it feels good, do it; everyone is equal; get the US out of Iraq because we should not be doing the job that the Iraqi’s should be doing, but KEEP the illegal Mexicans in the U.S. because they ARE doing the jobs that the US won’t do.
“It’s the end of the world and they know it, but THEY feel fine…”
Wow. France has been continuously amazing me these past few months. A right leaning president and now this?
From the article:
“A survey published yesterday in Le Figaro newspaper found 74 percent of respondents favored immigration quotas. Most also supported French language requirements for would-be immigrants and opposed blanket regularization of illegals, according to the OpinionWay poll.”
What happened to all the looney left in France?? Did they come here?? Geeez, I was depending on France for my comic relief amongst the daily goings on of the world. I guess I still have DC and MD to laugh at. Loosing a whole country of looney left is sure going to make my day a little less comical though…
Mando
France is still has it’s comic relief benefits, and remember it is STILL France afterall. Laugh at DC and MD, and a few other neighboring counties right here in NoVa. The guilty jurisdictions and their legal residents know who they are.
I think Mom is S.Pandak!
Legal2
Excellent guess. I got a think glossy mailer legal size from her yesterday. It had a picture of her in front of a bunch of trees. I think a lot of trees were wasted on that mailer. I wonder did she care about those. I think Mom should reveal her true identity!
corr
got a THICK glossy..
Mando,
“Wow. France has been continuously amazing me these past few months. A right leaning president and now this? […]”
And it’s not likely the survey respondents changed their minds overnight. Those feelings were there for a while, but squelched by the Left. Amazing what a change of leadership can do. And a valuable lesson for us here.
Mando, yea, I saw your LTE in the MJM. Simply outstanding.
I like the requirement to the learn English if you want to go to England, and learn French if you want to go to France. What a novel concept. Why can’t this part of our immigration policy? I told the PWCBOS, Tuesday night, it’s time look at make English the language of our county.
at MAKING English the OFFICIAL language of our county.
I thought it was the official language of the state (?).
CODE OF VIRGINIA,
CHAPTER 829 (1996)
CHAPTER 7. OFFICIAL LANGUAGE OF THE COMMONWEALTH.
§7.1-42. English designated the official language of the Commonwealth.
English shall be designated as the official language of the Commonwealth of Virginia. Except as provided by law, no state agency or local government shall be required to provide and no state agency or local government shall be prohibited from providing any documents, information, literature or other written materials in any language other than English.
As well as….
§22.1-212.1. Obligations of school boards.
Pursuant to §7.1-42, school boards shall have no obligation to teach the standard curriculum, except courses in foreign languages, in a language other than English. School boards shall endeavor to provide instruction in the English language which shall be designed to promote the education of students for whom English is a second language.
MSF, etc., don’t have anything left. That’s why they were so disgruntled at the Supervisors’ meeting. Marching didn’t help, boycotting was a bust, taking off from work backfired, and the very large, in-your-face sign on PW Street (maybe the name confused them!) is simply detrimental to their effort. Calling citizens for upholding our laws (federal, state, and local) racists makes us yawn. So…they have to try to worry people about an amount of money it will take to rid our neighborhoods of all the inherent problems that come with sanctuary policies. Well, budgets get tight around here at home sometimes, but when there is a problem such as infestation it is imperative to act, before the foundation is weakened. Doing nothing always winds up costing a lot more in the end. That’s just reality. And so is illegal immigration. We must continue to STAY INVOLVED.
es_la_ley
With that being said, could you entertain this question. Why then was portions of Freedom High School’s Graduation, in Spanish? They were told by the PWC School Board that wouldn’t not happen, yet it did?
I’m not try to be smart here, I’m just very curious how this happened then? I’d read that about the graduation, here on bvbl.Then last night at Citizen’s time at the School Board meeting, a parent was there to address this very concern. I must say it greatly concerns. I think would concern many others on this blog.
I see the codes you’ve given above, and thank you for that. However I’m just not sure that is what’s actually happening in the county and the Commonwealth. I really hope someone explain how this could happen.
The movement is spreading:
http://wral.com/news/local/story/1843058/
Durham — The debate over immigration and questions about who has the right to police the issue was the subject of a Durham City Council work session on Thursday with Durham’s new police chief.
Citizens also showed up in support of a 2003 policy, Resolution 9046, which prohibits police from targeting people solely on their immigration status. Immigration status isn’t checked unless someone is involved in a serious crime.
Most police departments have the same policy, and Durham investigators say that without it, many victims and witnesses in crimes would be afraid to come forward.
But Councilman and mayoral candidate Thomas Stith said the policy makes Durham a sanctuary for illegal immigrants.
“And that’s the crux of this,” he said. “This is not about walking out of this room and seeing someone that doesn’t look like me and you and saying, ‘You’re not supposed to be here.’”
However, that’s how dozens of supporters of the resolution saw Stith’s questioning. They said changes to the policy would violate individuals’ civil rights.
“The reason it’s an issue, I think, is because Councilman Stith is running for mayor, and he wants to run on an anti-immigrant platform,” said local attorney Ricardo Velasquez.
Durham Mayor Bill Bell, who supports the current policy, was frustrated in the session.
“I’m comfortable with where we are, and unless someone moves to change it, I assume there’s no need to do anything different,” Bell said.
The city’s new police chief, Jose Lopez, told council members he supports the policy. He said victims and witnesses are not asked about their immigration status. But in criminal cases, he said, suspects with immigration issues will be referred to the proper agency.
“This is not a sanctuary city for criminals,” he said.
I’ve seen a few houses under foreclosure in my neighborhood, all townhouses and all previously occupied by multiple Hispanic families. Now I’m not positive they were all illegal, but a good many of them likely were. Word on the street is that they just up and left…which is fine by me.
The took their cruddy cars, loud music and everything else along with them too. Honestly it’s been quiet around here since they left and I’m extremely happy. Get rid of the rest of the boarding houses and we’ll be golden.
putting the pressure on them and forcing them to “self-deport” is the way to go, does not cost a penny. Right now it’s basically just forcing the cockroaches from one area to another, but eventually when all localities and states pass resolutions there will be only one way to go and that’s down…..kinda like herding cattle.
Josh
Illegal Immigrants Chase False Hope to Canada
Fabrizio Costantini for The New York Times
By MONICA DAVEY and ABBY GOODNOUGH
Published: September 21, 2007
WINDSOR, Ontario, Sept. 20 — Fleeing stepped-up sweeps by the American authorities, illegal immigrants to the United States, mostly Mexican, are arriving in growing numbers at the foot of the bridge in this Canadian border town seeking refugee status.
Still more immigrants, mostly Mexicans living illegally in Florida, have begun trying to make their way past America’s northern border at other locations, the majority of them flying into the airport in Toronto, Canadian officials said Thursday.
The arrivals here began suddenly three weeks ago, just a family or two at first, fueled by the notion — largely unfounded, the authorities here say — that Canada would grant them asylum.
The journey, some of the immigrants said, was first suggested by an organization in Naples, Fla., which charged a fee for assisting with the paperwork. Now the idea has spread on the Internet and through social networks.
By Thursday, at least 200 people had turned up here, across the border from Detroit, with as much of their lives as they could shove into suitcases, boxes and garbage bags in their cars. Thousands more, refugee advocates and Canadian officials say, may be on their way.
Advocates for immigrants issued urgent warnings to Mexicans pondering similar journeys, and expressed fury at groups that were encouraging them. In truth, refugee status for Mexican citizens is relatively unusual in Canada. Only 28 percent of such claims by Mexicans were approved in Canada last year, compared with 47 percent of claims from all nationalities.
“It’s an outrage that money is being taken to provide false information and dangerous information to these people,” said Rivka Augenfeld of the Canadian Council for Refugees, a nonprofit umbrella organization focused on the rights and protections of refugees. “This idea is just out there and growing.”
Windsor officials, who scrambled to arrange a meeting Thursday in a community center for some of the new arrivals so they could apply for social services, said they were overwhelmed by the sudden onslaught and deeply worried about the days ahead.
Already, they have filled a shelter with 30 single men and are now paying four motels to house families, said Maj. Wilfred Harbin, administrator for the Salvation Army here. Meals were being delivered to the families by taxi cab.
“We have no idea what we are going to do,” said Major Harbin, who said he had heard that as many as 7,000 Mexicans might be seeking refugee status in the coming weeks.
Eddie Francis, the mayor of Windsor, faxed a letter Wednesday to Canadian federal authorities seeking financial help.
“I empathize with the challenges but we don’t have the ability to manage this,” Mr. Francis said. “We have never seen anything like this.”
Many of the families who drove here said they had learned about the possibility of fleeing to Canada from a Naples, Fla., organization, the Jerusalem Haitian Community Center, which promoted “Information required for Canadian Refugee Status Application” on its Web site. The group, some refugees said, collected $400 for adults and $100 for children and assured them that there would be jobs and shelter.
“I don’t know if what I was told about coming here was correct or not, but what am I going to do about it now?” said Pedro Palafox Marin, who said he paid $800 to the organization before driving through the night to Windsor with his wife and children.
“In Florida,” Mr. Marin said, “every job I got, everywhere I went, we were getting a lot of pressure from immigration. Being illegal was always on my mind. Now, I can relax.”
Illegal immigrants have been especially frightened of deportation in recent months, people in Naples and surrounding Collier County said. The community has been filled with tales of immigrants’ being caught and deported and the sending of government letters to employers warning them not to employ illegal immigrants.
The Collier County Sheriff’s Office recently became the first local law enforcement agency in Florida to send its deputies for Immigrations and Custom Enforcement training, which gives them the authority to detain suspected illegal immigrants.
In Naples on Thursday, Jacques Sinjuste, the general director of the Jerusalem Haitian Community Center, denied that he had urged undocumented immigrants to seek asylum in Canada or told them jobs would be waiting there. Mr. Sinjuste said he and a small group of volunteers at the center had merely helped immigrants fill out applications for asylum, he said.
“We fill it out for them and that’s the end of our job,” he said. “Many people are taking the name of my organization with them when they go to Canada and saying I sent them. But I don’t know anything about that.”
Mr. Sinjuste, a Haitian immigrant who founded the center in 2000, said he had first heard about the possibility of seeking asylum in Canada from a client who brought one of the applications to his office two years ago. Since then, he said, the center has helped about 300 undocumented immigrants fill out Canadian asylum applications, charging $400 per person.
Mr. Sinjuste said he had recently fired a lawyer who worked for the center for describing the charge as a “fee” on the center’s Web site.
“It’s not a fee; it’s a donation,” he said. “Mostly it goes to pay the volunteers who help us do the job and to buy ink and paper.”
In some cases, he added, money collected from the immigrants helped finance their travel to the Canadian border.
“Right now we do not have anything left,” Mr. Sinjuste said. The center’s bank account, he said, contains about $1,900.
“We don’t want to make money off people,” he said. “My position is to defend minorities, not to rip them off.”
He said the center, a nonprofit charity, mostly helped Haitian immigrants but had recently seen an influx of Hispanics seeking services.
Haitians have long migrated to Canada, and particularly to Montreal, the largest French language city in North America. But immigration lawyers say Haitians are far more likely to be allowed to stay here as refugees than Mexicans are.
To win refugee status from the Refugee and Immigration Board of Canada, immigrants must show “a well founded fear of persecution” linked to their race, religion, nationality or political background, said Charles Hawkins a spokesman for the board. Last year, 53 percent of Haitians who applied as refugees were admitted here. But even those who are rejected will not be returned to Haiti: the government has put a temporary freeze on deportations there, given Haiti’s turmoil.
No such moratorium exists for Mexico. Although Mexicans who have lived in the United States are permitted to seek asylum in Canada, they will be deported to Mexico if they are turned down.
Several lawyers said they were pessimistic about these immigrants’ odds of being granted asylum, a process that can take 6 months to 2 years. Even so, most of the Mexicans here said they were hopeful. They spent Thursday looking for apartments to move into, cleaning out cars, filling out paperwork.
“Maybe they’ll have compassion for us,” Manuel Gonzalez, 46, said of his request for asylum. “All we want to do is live and follow the rules and work hard.” Referring to the help Canadian authorities have already given them, Mr. Gonzalez, who traveled from Naples, said, “What we didn’t have in the United States we had here in a second.”
Carina Gonzalez, who drove her red Suburban from Naples a few weeks ago, said she had lived in the United States for 10 years. When she reached a customs agent as she crossed into Canada, she recalled, she felt deeply nervous but also relieved.
Ms. Gonzalez said that she had worked in a grocery store in the United States but that her employers had been asking more and more questions about her documents and her legal status.
“I could smell the freedom when I crossed over,” said Ms. Gonzalez, 25. “I don’t know what’s going to happen next, but the pressure of worrying about getting caught never let you sleep well.”
I see the only real costs will be in detainment & deportation. Charlie Deane is not really seeking additional officers for immigration enforcement, and he can’t convince me he will require additional officers unless there are special enforcement operations conducted by PWCPD under his direction. During his presentation, I did not hear him detail immigration enforcement operations that he has already planned, and the cost breakdown of these operations that require the millions he says it will cost to “round-up” these law breakers.
In the past, he has been forced to hire additional officers for positions already approved by the BOCS. Don’t believe for a second that he will need officers for immigration enforcement. He doesn’t even believe it is his job, and will encourage officers not to pursue enforcement measures related to revised general orders. This will only effect detainers being placed on arrestees who have come in contact with the police on other criminal offenses. Police personnel know if Deane doesn’t believe in certain enforcement you need to stay away from making these arrests or he will find a way to get rid of you. The current opinion of mid-level police management within his own department is that the new police directives will go ignored with the full support of the Chief’s Office.
The real stress on existing services will require additional workloads on judges, court clerks, & A.D.C. staff.
“the pressure of worrying about getting caught never let you sleep well.”
Another slogan or a science fair project?: “Go back home and you’ll sleep better.”