Dems Propose Dumb Ideas. Also, Sun To Rise Tomorrow.
By Greg L | 23 September 2007 | Illegal Aliens, Prince William County | 115 Comments
Democrats in Prince William County seem to have have settled on some sort of joint policy in regards to the illegal alien problem, the centerpiece which is advocating for a $10,000 fine for businesses that hire illegal aliens. Now if these folks were running for Congress, I’d be pretty excited about a plan like this. Coming from candidates for state and local office however, this is utter baloney. The state doesn’t have the legal authority to impose fines on employers for violations of federal labor laws or immigration laws, which makes pronouncements of this sort uninformed at best, or intentionally unconstitutional. Neither of these options say much about the ability of these Democrat candidates to do a good job representing us on the county board, or in the General Assembly.
You see, under federal law (8 USC §1324a(h)(2)) local criminal or civil sanctions against employers are not permissible. Here’s how it reads:
The provisions of this section preempt any State or local law imposing civil or criminal sanctions (other than through licensing and similar laws) upon those who employ, or recruit or refer for a fee for employment, unauthorized aliens.
So what in the heck are Democrats doing claiming that they can somehow thwart this provision of law and start laying down a long-overdue smackdown on employers who hire illegal aliens? It’s not a bad idea — I’d even advocate jail time for employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens — but it’s just not permitted under federal law unless it relates to the permitting and licensing powers afforded to localities under the 10th Amendment of the Constitution. For prospective legislators to get this so stupidly wrong, as if they never bothered to check what federal law was in this regard, is inexcusable.
I could make the case that attorneys, who are part of this group of candidates proposing this plan, actually were aware of this law and are deliberately proposing something they knew would be overturned the instant a court looked at a law trying to do this. I’m not. Immigration law is complex and unnecessarily convoluted, so I’m choosing to believe that they were just ignorant, failed to obtain informed input about their campaign positions, and are unknowingly promoting an unworkable solution since they’re late to the debate on this issue and just haven’t bothered to do their homework. That would at least seem to fit their consistent pattern on this issue.
Either way, it doesn’t say a whole lot about the qualifications of William Day, Chris Brown, and Paul Nichols.
As for the rest of their plan, it’s a mixed bag. Here’s the full plan:
1. Punish employers that knowingly hire illegal immigrants by imposing fines up to $10,000 per illegal employee.
Preempted by federal law, making this a dumb idea for Virginia until we can get this federal law changed.
2. Give employers the tools to assess the legal status of their employees.
The E-Verify Program (previously known as the “Basic Pilot Program”) already exists, which employers can use to verify that applicants for jobs have valid Social Security Numbers. How about just encourage the use of existing tools?
3. Make a federal conviction for hiring illegal aliens grounds for suspension of a Virginia business license.
This has already proposed by Virginia Republicans, but it’s nice to see the Democrats endorse this proposal.
4. Allow enforcement officials to work with the Virginia Employment Commission to verify employment status.
What enforcement officials? Virginia doesn’t have any officials that ensure compliance with federal immigration laws, and the Employment Commission doesn’t maintain information regarding immigration status for potential employees. This could use some clarification.
5. Fine landlords for knowingly renting property to illegal immigrants.
This has already been ruled unconstitutional by a court reviewing an ordinance in Hazleton, PA, although it could well be overturned on appeal. Until the legality of this is sorted out, it’s probably not a good idea to jump in here, as it would immediately be enjoined.
6. Cut off in-state tuition for illegal immigrants.
Mark Warner would love this one, wouldn’t he? How about we just not enroll illegal aliens in taxpayer-supported universities in the first place? Oh, wait, didn’t we hear LAST WEEK that this supposedly wasn’t a problem?
7. Increase punishment for counterfeit drivers’ licenses and identification fraud.
OK, sounds like a good idea. It won’t doa whole lot, but I’ve got no argument here.
8. Increase resources for state and local enforcement officials to make sure immigration laws are enforced.
Now aren’t Democrats saying that state and local law enforcement doesn’t have a role to play here? Why fund something that you don’t want to do, or believe you don’t have the power to do in the first place?
9. Check the legal resident status of all inmates currently in Virginia jails.
Good idea. Does this mean that these candidates are now calling on Governor Kaine to enroll Virginia in the Section 287(g) Program, which is the only means available for actually doing something about illegal aliens that would be identified through this check? I thought not.
10. Confirm the legal presence of all persons lawfully convicted of a crime in the U.S. via the U.S. ICE database.
And do what with that, precisely? Give them a cookie?
I think the Democrats still haven’t gotten it yet. This plan is largely unworkable. Do they really want voters to get the impression that Democrats aren’t interested in proposing workable solutions to the problem of illegal aliens? That’s what they’re likely to get this way.
The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.
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“Immigration law is complex and unnecessarily convoluted, so I’m choosing to believe that they were just ignorant, failed to obtain informed input about their campaign positions, and are unknowingly promoting an unworkable solution since they’re late to the debate on this issue and just haven’t bothered to do their homework. That would at least seem to fit their consistent pattern on this issue.”
– and you know everything, don’t you, Greg?
Even so, Faisal Gill’s law firm Gill and Gallinger advertises that it can help illegal immigrants, including those awaiting deportation, remain in the USA. Gill is professionally and ethically committed to represent his illegal immigrant clients interests.
http://gillgallinger.com/practice_immigration.asp
“”"We can also help you apply for Withholding of Removal (allowing you stay in the U.S. when otherwise eligible for deportation) and gaining protection based on the United Nations Convention Against Torture.”"”
That’s a good one. Gill claims that UN laws supersede those of the United States when it comes to deporting illegal aliens from the US.
“”"Deportation/Removal
Even if you or your loved one is already in the process of being removed from the U.S., Gill & Gallinger may be able to help. We can help you qualify for protection from deportation based on Cancellation of Removal, Waiver of Deportation, Asylum, or other
methods. Time is extremely important in situations dealing with possible removal, so contact the Gill & Gallinger today for a free consultation.”"”
Why are these Gill clients being deported? Because they are illegal immigrants. Gill’s job is to help these illegal immigrants remain in the USA.
As someone who is new to this site, I read the Democrats’ plan, and they have some good ideas.
I really am not familiar with your plan, Greg. What do you propose differently?
Here is one (of many) reasons this country and it courts have gone to hell. Now, even the Federal Government has no right to enforce immigration law according to the 9th circuit court, district 1 in San Francisco.
http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070830/NATION/108300047/1002
Court orders injuction until 10 October.
http://www.pww.org/article/view/11696/
If they were serious about illegal aliens, they would not only go after businesses who hire illegals, but also illegal aliens, since not every illegal in the Country works. So, how is going after a buisness going to stop an illegal alien gang member? How is it going to find the unemployed mother who stays home? Of course their plan won’t, and of course the Dems know that too(or maybe I am giving them too much credit for thinking that), this is just an attempt on their part to show they are serious about illegal aliens. Try again Dems.
Revoke the business licenses permanently from businesses that hire illegal aliens. That should be legal right?
I’m serious guys, so, I’m asking again.
What is your plan? What would you do differently from the Democrats’ plan? From what I’m reading, their tactics are pretty much what this site advocates, correct?
What other things would you do?
citizenofmanassas said on 23 Sep 2007 at 12:39 pm:
“how is going after a buisness going to stop an illegal alien gang member? How is it going to find the unemployed mother who stays home? Of course their plan won’t, and of course the Dems know that too(or maybe I am giving them too much credit for thinking that), this is just an attempt on their part to show they are serious about illegal aliens. Try again Dems.”
This needs to be done on many levels with support from many places. Clearly one level (feds) hasn’t worked.
Do you think we shouldn’t go after businesses? Do you think we should only focus on illegal gang members? Or are you just trying to slam some folks.
Say what you will about the Democrats — it’s a plan anyway. Not all candidates even have a plan. While they do need to seriously re-work this plan, however, maybe SOMEBODY from their party can get Kaine to enroll Virginia in the Section 287(g) Program finally. If the Democrats could just do us that one small favor and follow through with that aspect of their plan, that would be good enough for me (if it was sincere).
(……Colgan…this is your que here….get Kaine on the horn now).
It is the GOP that is leading this issue, and most GOP candidates running this year are fighting the good fight. What REALLY bothers me though is why we have not heard something — anything, that resembles a real plan out of the Gill camp other than some vague reference to being OK with amnesty.
Hey, Greg, I thought HSM and the illegal alien issue were supposed to be beyond party affilation? When you, as the leader of HSM, blast Democrats as coming up with what you think are dumb ideas (and clearly infer that this is a “normal” thing for Dems), you undermine the credibility of any statement you make about HSM being a “big tent” organization. Here the Democrats start proposing some ideas on illegal immigration and rather than embracing them, you’re quick to try to find flaws. I would think you should be happy to see that your work (and that of HSM) is being validated by the fact that Democrats are even addressing the issue in any meaningful way.
Couldn’t the $10,000 “fee” be assessed as part of the business licensing process? Last I checked, you were not a practicing member of the Virginia bar, but I guess we all should just trust your word on this subject because, well, you say so.
On number 2, you infer that the Democrats are proposing some other tool beside E-Verify. Did you ever stop to consider that the language is purposefully broad so that it encompasses all tools (including E-Verify)? My guess is that there are a number of Prince William business completely unaware of E-Verify.
On number 5, the decision was made in the U.S. District Court of Central Pennsylvania. PWC is not in this district. So, if PWC were to adopt a similar resolution, it would have to be challenged here as well. Until there is a higher level appellate decisions (Circuit Cour of Appeals or US Supreme Court), the Hazelton case is no where near solid precedent. And, precedent unchangeable, unchallengable law. Seems to me that on other threads, you’ve said it is a cop out to say “we can’t do anything about this because it’s a Federal issue.” Funny how that position changes when the party affiliation isn’t the one you like.
WannaKnow has a good point. Where is your 10-point plan? I looked through the archives here and found no point-by-point plan for how the illegal immigration problem should be addressed. I went to the HSM site and again found nothing that actually outlined what that organization suggests or promotes as a plan to address the problem. While you can point out some of the flaws in the Democrats’ plan, at least there is a plan to point at. Of course, maybe that’s why you and HSM have not published any such document. Once you put it on paper, you actually have to stand behind it.
Greg L.:
Although written from a different perspective, you’ll find several points of agreement here, http://changeservant.blogspot.com/2007/09/critique-of-prince-william-democratic.html
What would a Kaine signed 287g give us that we don’t already have under existing state law and the current cooperative relationship that ICE has with VA Dept of Corrections and the State Police?
Why don’t we start by enforcing the laws we have and stop creating myths about one’s we don’t need (like a law to keep undocumented students from getting in-state tuition for which they do not qualify under existing state law and which no one can show they are getting) or accepting de facto federal mandates which will drive up local and state expenses and, possibly, taxes? http://changeservant.blogspot.com/2007/08/how-many-laws-does-virginia-already.html
wannaknow, here are a few thiings that can be done. It’s not a complete solution, since the feds have to get off their butt and fix a lot, but there are things we can do at the state and local level to help our local communities. Not all of these have been thoroughly vetted for compliance with federal law, but these are some options that I believe are lawful and quite possible:
1. Statewide 287(g) - there’s no reason to have illegal aliens registered on the VA sex offender registry. Criminal illegal aliens should as a matter of course be deported rather than released. This could be done tomorrow by executive order in the state.
2. Require that state and local government contractors and their subcontractors use the E-Verify system to verify the legal presence of all employees, with a mechanism to allow employees who might get wrongly caught up in this a means to assert their legal status. Companies that fail to ensure a legal workforce would have their contracts terminated. This can be done by executive order.
3. Ensure state public benefits are not unlawfully provided to illegal aliens by auditing the process used to grant statutory benefits and strengthening the integrity of the process.
4. Transmit the list of registered voters in Virginia to the Department of Homeland security to ensure that no illegal aliens are registered to vote. Prosecute any that are for voter fraud and have them deported.
5. Withold some state funds from any locality that prevents in any way the effective enforcement of federal immigration laws.
6. Make unlawful presence in Virginia a state crime.
7. Make it a felony to enable in any way the forced servitude of minors in prostitution or drug distribution.
8. Allow the state to seize the vehicle used by any person convicted of driving without a license on their second offense.
9. Allow the state to seize the real property of anyone who unlawfully overcrowds a residence, when such overcrowding is a contributing factor in any felony offense. If property owners can document that all persons who had been in that residence at the time of the offense had legal presence in Virginia, the forfeiture would not happen.
10. Make it a crime to provide any service to an illegal alien, or transfer to them anything of tangible value, when public funds were used to in whole or in part provide that service or obtain that item unless the illegal alien fully pays for the cost of that service or tangible item. In other words, no charity for illegal aliens unless no public funds were used.
11. Make identify fraud a felony offense.
12. Permit hospital emergency rooms to require that anyone seeking treatment in an emergency room provide fingerprints if they cannot demonstrate an ability to pay for the medical treatment they are requesting. If someone cannot subsequently be located so they can be asked to pay their bill, permit hospitals the ability to forward these fingerprints on to law enforcement so that the identity of the persons and their whereabouts can be confirmed.
13. No bail for illegal aliens.
14. Restrict the number of adults who can legally inhabit a residence based on the square footage of the bedrooms.
There are a few more ideas that I’m working on as well, and some ideas are on hold pending the outcome of current litigation, but this should give legislators a pretty good list of things to call for that would actually make a difference.
I’m speaking personally here, and not on behalf of HSM. If you want to know the official policies of HSM, visit their website at http://www.helpsavemanassas.org .
My proposals for consideration, which are not endorsed by HSM, are above. Feel free to debate the merits or lack thereof of them, and I welcome anyone’s input to help refine these and perhaps add to it. If Democrats endorsed some or all of these, I’d be thrilled, and would be happy to say so publicly. Same for Republicans.
I just haven’t seen much in the way of any cogent plan by Democrats on the illegal alien issue yet.
As far as my legal interpretation of that federal law, and how it applies to this proposal, if you got some daylight we can run through for employer penalties, I’m all ears. I’d love to find out that there was an opportunity here that I’ve missed.
Greg: We also need to stop providing drivers licenses to illegal aliens in all 50 states. Those with fake ID’s need to be checked with the federal database.
Greg, those are some good ideas. Thanks.
Thank you, Turn PW Blue, for your comments and for bringing this issue to the forefront. HSM, regardless of what I was told, is definitely not bi-partisan and not the ‘big tent’ for all who share concerns over the impact of illegal immigration in our community.
The open hostility shown towards those who do not spout the party line or support the chosen candidates makes discussion and dialogue impossible and fruitless. Even Republicans who might have different approaches are attacked and vilified by contributors here. While I realize that the contributors do not necessarily speak for HSM, they are members and nothing has been done to curtail the general tone directed towards people who make comments not to their liking.
I have yet to see any evidence that HSM is bi-partisan. I have stopped directing my friends towards this site. I still occasionally read although I rarely comment. I hope that HSM can prove me wrong. Perhaps it is too much to ask for during an election season.
Greg
What is statewide 287(g)? DHS does not entertain a ‘train the trainer’ program. Each jurisdiction must send their officers to their training sites. There are no other options. During the time the officers/troopers are at the five week training someone must be paid to cover what they do.
My understanding is that 287(g) training means the feds have delegated authority to the officer to ask for legal status without any other reason for detaining them. Then ICE is contacted and if they agree ICE will issue a detainer. Then ICE will either keep them in local jails at their expense or release with the direction that the illegal should appear at a federal court for deportation hearings.
How would hospitals set up fingerprinting services? Who would pay for that expensive service? Who would train them? Ink prints or computerized scans? What about people that are out cold or broken bones (unable to take prints)? Don’t serve them until they wake up and prove they have insurance?
What about the children?
What about anchor babies?
My point here is why are you blaming one group for having half an idea when most of us do? None of us are experts at dealing with this or the issues that need to be worked out, but why pick on one group?? It’s not productive.
I thought you wanted to fix the problem - not point fingers. That’s what the congress has done and why they are so ineffective.
I think I may discontinue participation with HSM if this is to continue.
Very disappointed - you are the leader not a blogger.
Going after employers isn’t enough. Landlords who rent to illegals should be punished with fines and jail time.
Foreigners have bought more real estate than American’s realize. American’s are using foreign money to finance our homes.
Citizen should be able to file a complaint when the number of residents occupying a home appears to have exceeded county zoning and ordinances, an investigation is done and if the residents are undocumented, the landlord is fined and thrown in jail.
Now what to do with the illegals once they’ve cooperated with officials? I would give them a $2,000 credit to be used towards their visa filing fee in the future, a ride back home, and if we ever catch them back illegally there is a minimum manditory punishment of life in prison at a work camp.
It’s true, the owner of the Original Steakhouse off Old Bridge Road lives in Pakistan.
One voice: Rest assurred–a hospital based fingerprint system would cost many times less than the medical care given to (ahem, stolen by) the illegal alien. Sounds to me like you want to nitpick any kind of action to death. Will you stop with the finger pointing and blame game?
Ah, the sanctuary church person.
Dolph:
It’s good to see you back again.
One Voice: “statewide” 287(g) would mean participation by the state police, department of corrections and DMV as is done in several other states such as Arizona, Florida, and Alabama. Illegal aliens who would be detained by state agencies would then be processed for deportation by state law enforcement personnel under the supervision of ICE, just as is now done in the PWC Adult Detention Center. It’s not a matter of contacting ICE and asking for a detainer. It’s our state law enforcement personnel actually processing illegals.
287(g) does not empower local or state law enforcement to detain anyone solely on immigration violations. It only allows persons detained during the normal course of law enforcement operations to be questioned and processed.
I’ve seen digital fingerprinting systems in operation, and they’re remarkably fast and easy. DoD has thousands of these in operation today. If someone skips on a bill and gave fake information, this would allow the actual identity of the person who obtained the service to be identified, provided ICE or some other law enforcement agency has a record of that individual and has the authority to provide that information to the healthcare provider. If there’s a better way to help combat theft of services from our hospitals, I’m all ears though.
Dolph
WELCOME BACK!!!
Thanks Advocator and Lafayette.
Another thing that would help……..I saw a blip in WAPO Metro Section about a Luis A. Martinez of Manassas being indicted on cockfighting. I went into General District Court Prince William via computer this afternoon to check out any Luis Martinez. There was one convicted of Identity Fraud - given 30 days, 30 days SUSPENDED. There was one convicted of Fraudulent Use of Birth Certificate and DL - given 30 days, 28 days SUSPENDED and I could go on and on. Guilties were suspended sentences, better percentage being Guilty in Absencia, Nolle Prosequi. The Courts need to do something here and stop suspending sentences!!!!!
The Democrats need to be applauded here. So what if their ideas are not perfect, they are joining the battle. Isn’t that what it is all about? Could the ideas be better, yeah. Could the Republican’s, sure.
Encouragment is called for here, not villification.
Dolph:
“The open hostility shown towards those who do not spout the party line or support the chosen candidates makes discussion and dialogue impossible and fruitless.”
First off, welcome back. The problem with dialogue when it comes to this issue is that it means amnesty. Anything less than total enforcement of existing laws is amnesty. This is why we are so hard headed on this issue. There can be no dialogue or it would be rewarding criminal behavior. The next time I am pulled over for speeding I am just going to use the “Well I thought you guys weren’t enforcing laws any more, so I didn’t realize it was a problem officer” excuse. I am frankly surprised that someone hasn’t used the selective enforcement of laws excuse as a way to defend themselves from prosecution of any other type of offense. If they won’t enforce laws when people sneak into the country, steal identities, work tax-free, steal medical care, etc then what authority do they have to enforce any other laws? Something to think about…
I am against spending lots of my money locally and long term to remove these folks; Strategically yes, randomly no. I would rather focus on the schools and employers before the hospitals, unless you mean non-critical care. The issue of children is often brought up in these situations and seldom answered.
Mobile LiveScans are very expensive however they finally coming to local law enforcement. Not sure what grants would make them available to hospitals although since the ‘road to nowhere’ is history……
My point is that every idea is a good one. Let’s not choose what we don’t like if their party affiliation is not yours.
Below are two Fact Sheets from ICE. The first lists those that have signed MOA with ICE. As you can see very few nationwide participate in 287(g) and the majority are SO due to their jail responsibilities. The restraints are primarily from the Feds.
The second fact sheet addresses the delegation of authority.
I think I posted the link, not very good technologically.
Section 287(g), Delegation of Immigration Authority;
Immigration and Nationality Act
287(g) Participants
ICE currently has signed MOAs with agencies in Alabama, Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia. A total of 319 police and correctional officers have been trained.
August 2002 Florida Department of Law Enforcement 35 participants
September 2003 Alabama Department of Public Safety 21 participants
April 2005 Florida Department of Law Enforcement 27 participants
October 2005 Arizona Department of Corrections 12 participants
November 2005 Alabama Department of Public Safety 23 participants
December 2005 Los Angeles County (Calif.) Sheriff’s Office 8 participants
December 2005 San Bernardino County (Calif.) Sheriff’s Office 10 participants
March 2006 Mecklenburg County (N. C.) Sheriff’s Office 12 participants
May 2006 Riverside County (Calif.) Sheriff’s Office 10 participants
May 2006 San Bernardino County (Calif.) Sheriff’s Office 1 participant
August 2006 Alabama Department of Public Safety 16 participants
August 2006 Florida Department of Law Enforcement 1 participant
December 2006 Orange County (Calif.) Sheriff’s Office 14 participants
February 2007 Mecklenburg County (N. C.) Sheriff’s Office 4 participants
February 2007 Gaston County (N. C.) Sheriff’s Office 10 participants
February 2007 Alamance County (N. C.) Sheriff’s Office 10 participants
March 2007 Davidson (Tenn.) County Sheriff’s Office 16 participants
March 2007 San Bernardino County (Calif.) Sheriff’s Office 1 participant
March 2007 Arizona Department of Corrections 5 participants
March 2007 Maricopa County (Ariz.) Sheriff’s Office 37 participants
May 2007 Arizona Department of Public Safety 10 participants
May 2007 Arizona Department of Corrections 10 participants
May 2007 Maricopa County (Ariz.) Sheriff’s Office 2 participants
May 2007 Maricopa County (Ariz.) Sheriff’s Office 40 participants
May 2007 Colorado State Patrol 22 participants
June 2007 Prince William-Manassas Det. Ctr. (Va.) 7 participants
June 2007 Federal Protective Service 2 participants
June 2007 Cobb County (Ga.) Sheriff’s Office 6 participants
June 2007 Rockingham County (Va.) Sheriff’s Office 5 participants
June 2007 Shenandoah County (Va.) Sheriff’s Office 3 participants
June 2007 Herndon (Va.) Police 6 participants
The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act (IIRAIRA), effective September 30, 1996, added Section 287(g), performance of immigration officer functions by state officers and employees, to the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). This authorizes the secretary of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to enter into agreements with state and local law enforcement agencies, permitting designated officers to perform immigration law enforcement functions, pursuant to a Memorandum of Agreement (MOA), provided that the local law enforcement officers receive appropriate training and function under the supervision of sworn U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers.
State and local patrol officers, detectives, investigators and correctional officers working in conjunction with ICE gain: necessary resources and authority to pursue investigations relating to violent crimes, human smuggling, gang/organized crime activity, sexual-related offenses, narcotics smuggling and money laundering; and support in more remote geographical locations.
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/factsheets/index.htm
Regarding hospitals, unless you mean critical care onlyl, let’s address the children. That issue comes up each time but is seldom addressed. Yes, mobile livescan would be helpful in this situation. They are very expensive and perhaps the “road to nowhere” money could be re-directed.
Personnally I would go after the schools and the employers.
Attached (I hope) is a link to ICE FACT sheets. It shows the number of states and officers that have been 287(g) trained. The numbers show that this is primarily done by SO and very few. As I mentioned, ICE requires you go there and then your jurisdiction has to pay to cover the folks that are gone. Also, it’s mostly SO due to their jail responibilities.
There is another FACT sheet that outlines the delegation of authority.
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/factsheets/index.htm
The point is that we are not in a situation to start shooting down ideas regardless of origin.
Regarding hospitals, unless you mean critical care onlyl, let’s address the children. That issue comes up each time but is seldom addressed. Yes, mobile livescan would be helpful in this situation. They are very expensive and perhaps the “road to nowhere” money could be re-directed.
Personnally I would go after the schools and the employers.
Attached (I hope) is a link to ICE FACT sheets. It shows the number of states and officers that have been 287(g) trained. The numbers show that this is primarily done by SO and very few. As I mentioned, ICE requires you go there and then your jurisdiction has to pay to cover the folks that are gone. Also, it’s mostly SO due to their jail responibilities.
There is another FACT sheet that outlines the delegation of authority.
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/factsheets/index.htm
The point is that we are not in a situation to start shooting down ideas regardless of origin.
Check these out.
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/factsheets/index.htm
Amnesty is not an option - agree. But can you blame a ’side’ for that?
Forgot -
Check out these ICE FACT Sheets. One lists all states that have signed an MOA with them. Very small numbers. Mostly Sheriff Office’s. They typically have the jails and its expensive to cover the vacated spots for the five weeks.
Also, a sheet on delegation of authority. Hope it posts, I am terrible at this.
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/factsheets/index.htm
I am having trouble posting so if it’s a duplicate I apologize. Here is a good link.
Lists states that have MOA with ICE and number of Officers trained. Also a fact sheet on the 287(g) delegation of authority by the feds.
http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/factsheets/index.htm
CALL YOUR SENATORS TO OPPOSE THE DREAM ACT!
One Voice
Exactly, Amnesty is not an option. I think we can blame both sides in all fairness.
‘Amnesty’ is also a relative term. What is amnesty to me might not be considered amnesty by someone else. That is a good reason to establish dialogue.
There is also silent amnesty. Unenforced laws are silent amnesty, in my opinion. Currently, we have silent amnesty, which to most of us, is unacceptable. How we alleviate this situation is where the debate and dialogue are critical. This communication must be elevated above party lines, name calling and finger-pointing. If we Americans fail to do this, then silent amnesty will continue to prevail.
(Thanks Dave, and what you wrote was dialogue.)
Amnesty = giving some sort of legal benefit/status to someone that was previously in an illegal situation/status. Period. It is that simple.
Any kind of amnesty = incentive. Incentive = further problems. Lesson learned…1986 amnesty.
I repeat: asking for debate and dialogue is simply a stalling tactic. We should not negotiate with illegal alien law-breakers. Dialogue is worthless in this situation. Am I supposed to seriously consider La Raza’s argument that there are no borders between Mexico and the US?
I agree with monti (using my examples above).
We also need to make English the national language and the official language of PWC!
I think that Dolph is talikng about the tone of the comments that end up with name calling, finger pointing, etc.
It is ok that everyone does not agree and everyone can just AGREE to disagree and move on instead of getting hostile, etc.
It really Does not show a good light.
The Patriot
English the official language of PWC, a must!! I’ve told said this very thing to the PWCBOS, a couple of times now. I’ve heard several others say the same thing at Citizen’s time too.
If English is the official language of Virginia(and it is), then it is also the official language of Prince William County.
dolph….where does it say it is?
Thanks for stepping up to the challenge and putting together a point-by-point list. Comments inline…
1. Statewide 287(g) - there’s no reason to have illegal aliens registered on the VA sex offender registry. Criminal illegal aliens should as a matter of course be deported rather than released. This could be done tomorrow by executive order in the state.
*****Who will bear the costs for entry into the 287(g) program? Where will the additional officers come from to pick up the workload that is incumbent in participating in this program? Who will cover the four/five weeks of time officers in training will be off the job? The 287(g) program looks great on the surface and is a worthwhile program, but the governor simply signing an executive order is only the very beginning of such a program, and it would be irresponsible to sign on to the 287(g) program without thinking through all of the resource and funding issues. The worst thing we could do is sign on to 287(g) then not devote the resources it requires to make it work.*****
2. Require that state and local government contractors and their subcontractors use the E-Verify system to verify the legal presence of all employees, with a mechanism to allow employees who might get wrongly caught up in this a means to assert their legal status. Companies that fail to ensure a legal workforce would have their contracts terminated. This can be done by executive order.
*****Employers are already required to validate the citizenship of their employees (that’s what the I-9 form is for). Do you really think that employers looking the other way with their I-9s will do a better job with E-Verify? E-Verify sounds great on paper, but the E-Verify system is tremendously flawed and reports an inordinate number of false positives (there are already court injunctions in place to prevent E-Verify’s use in Do you really think a construction contractor is going to wait for someone to fight their false positive or is it more likely that contractors will start racially profiling and applying other (illegal) filters to employment?*****
3. Ensure state public benefits are not unlawfully provided to illegal aliens by auditing the process used to grant statutory benefits and strengthening the integrity of the process.
****Again, this is a very broad and wonderful sounding plank until you look at the details of how to implement. Who will verify eligibility? Who pays for that administrative cost? Yes, there probably will be some tangible savings as a result of such a program, but those come after the administrative costs have already been put on the books.*****
4. Transmit the list of registered voters in Virginia to the Department of Homeland security to ensure that no illegal aliens are registered to vote. Prosecute any that are for voter fraud and have them deported.
*****See the comment about E-Verify and its accuracy above. As we saw in 2000 in Florida and Texas, any effort to “clean up” the voter roles invariably leads to problems outside the scope of the cleanup effort. How are the false positives going to be dealt with? Who will cover the administrative expense of this effort. What will the process be for notifying those swept up in this net and what options to appeal will they be given?*****
5. Withold some state funds from any locality that prevents in any way the effective enforcement of federal immigration laws.
*****This one needs some work, Greg. It’s a little broad.*****
6. Make unlawful presence in Virginia a state crime.
*****Once again, what consitutes “unlawful presence”? Wouldn’t this be challenged under the prohibition against states and localities from establishing their own immigration enforcement laws?*****
7. Make it a felony to enable in any way the forced servitude of minors in prostitution or drug distribution.
*****I believe these laws are already on the books. How about enforcing the ones we already have before creating new one?*****
8. Allow the state to seize the vehicle used by any person convicted of driving without a license on their second offense.
*****What if the driver of the vehicle isn’t the vehicle’s owner? How long between offenses?*****
9. Allow the state to seize the real property of anyone who unlawfully overcrowds a residence, when such overcrowding is a contributing factor in any felony offense. If property owners can document that all persons who had been in that residence at the time of the offense had legal presence in Virginia, the forfeiture would not happen.
*****This one will be thrown out under equal protection and illegal search and seizure grounds. It also seems to try to “back door” the prohibition against states and localities creating their own punishments for immigration violations.*****
10. Make it a crime to provide any service to an illegal alien, or transfer to them anything of tangible value, when public funds were used to in whole or in part provide that service or obtain that item unless the illegal alien fully pays for the cost of that service or tangible item. In other words, no charity for illegal aliens unless no public funds were used.
*****You’re placing quite a burden on social welfare organizations and other charitable groups to a) determine legal status and b) keep very detailed accounting records.*****
11. Make identify fraud a felony offense.
***** OK. *****
12. Permit hospital emergency rooms to require that anyone seeking treatment in an emergency room provide fingerprints if they cannot demonstrate an ability to pay for the medical treatment they are requesting. If someone cannot subsequently be located so they can be asked to pay their bill, permit hospitals the ability to forward these fingerprints on to law enforcement so that the identity of the persons and their whereabouts can be confirmed.
***** I don’t see medical care practitioners shirking their duty and oath while they wait for fingerprints. There is also a *huge* expense and administrative cost to implementing something like this. Then, it’s all predicated on the idea that somewhere there is a big database of illegal alien fingerprints. I also see privacy advocates having a field day with this one. *****
13. No bail for illegal aliens.
*****Who determines their status? Who pays to keep them in jail pending trial? Does a petty misdemeanor really call for what could be extensive jail time (which also may violate the Constitution)? *****
14. Restrict the number of adults who can legally inhabit a residence based on the square footage of the bedrooms.
***** What standards would be used for this determination and how would you enforce it, random searches of allegedly overcrowded homes? That won’t fly. What about homes overcrowded with legal residents? *****
Turn….I am willing to use my taxes to implement these items! You act like these are impossible! They aren’t! The technology is out there. There needs to be a will to do it. I have the will! Many others on here do too!
Furthermore…turn…you are just making the same excuses that those elected officials that support amnesty make!
§7.1-42. English designated the official language of the Commonwealth.
English shall be designated as the official language of the Commonwealth of Virginia. Except as provided by law, no state agency or local government shall be required to provide and no state agency or local government shall be prohibited from providing any documents, information, literature or other written materials in any language other than English.
“no state agency or local government shall be prohibited” here is the “loophole”!
Dolph
I’ve heard this, however it should reinterated at the county level.
Why was a portion of Freedom High’s graduation ceremony in Spanish then? This after the parents were told by school officials this whould NOT happen, yet it DID.
Excellent exchange of ideas between Greg and Turn PW Blue. Total agreement on 1 out of 14 points is actually a pretty good starting point. No where did I see an idea totally shot down. I hope both of you will continue to discuss the points of disagreement. Your exchange is very informative for those of us who consider ourselves to be life-long learners. Perhaps Greg would consider a dedicated thread for ongoing discussions of these ideas.
Lafayette….there is a loophole in the legal verbiage!
Here is the loophole: “no state agency or local government shall be prohibited”
I don’t know anything about the Freedom High School graduation.
However legally, they would not be prevented from having part of the ceremony in Spanish, they just could not be required to have it in Spanish.
I would be interested in hearing the details before I comment further.
Dolph…yes….they are taking advantage of the loophole! Why designate something if it can be overturned with a loophole. That is absurd and counterproductive.
The loophole statement needs to be removed.
Where is the loophole?
Sorry, crossed in the mail.
I provided the quote above.
Do you want state and local government forbidden to speak any language but English?
“no state agency or local government shall be prohibited”
Apparently there’s a lot more education that needs to be done on this issue. Let me take a stab at a couple of the problems I have with the above comments:
The current process of “verifying” the legal eligibility of employees using Form I-9 does not validate any of the documents or information provided by the prospective employee. An applicant can easily use fake documents, and there is no requirement for an employer to make any effort to validate them. E-Verify allows an employer to check that a social security number actually matches the name of the applicant and performs the verification that he is not trained to do, or is otherwise capable of. E-verify also does not replace the requirement to complete an I-9 Form.
The Section 287(g) Program training by ICE is paid for by the Federal Government, making it less expensive than the training the state police currently does with the FBI Academy, for example. If police officers or correctional officers are to be dedicated to processing persons for deportation, it may require additional FTEs or shifting resources around, so there is usually some cost to this. Most of us would agree that the actual cost of releasing criminal illegal aliens back into our community is much higher than this program’s cost.
“Legal presence” refers to the classification of a person who is not an “illegal alien” as defined under Title 8 of the United States Code. Someone who is a citizen or a legal resident, or has a valid visa or unexpired border entry receipt, or can validly claim refugee status would have legal presence. No one is making up the definition of this term, it’s entirely based on existing federal law.
As for item 14, you might want to check with Leslie Byrne, who came up with this idea in the first place. It’s one of the few, but a notable adoption of an idea proposed by Democrats. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem as if she’s promoting it right now.
Dolph…yes. Official business and documents should ALL be in English.
Furthermore, the time it takes one to become a legal citizen is plenty of time to learn English. There is no excuse. Don’t like it…don’t come here. If I wanted to move to another country I would work very hard to learn the language of the host country and I wouldn’t expect them to cater to me.
Would you make it illegal to have any official business or documents translated into another language? (not in lieu of English but in addition to English)
Odd that you shouldn’t mention it, Greg, but one would expect that Nichols would come in for particular criticism, since he is an attorney, and should understand well the concept of “preemption.” Brown is a CPA; Day is some sort of counselor. But Nichols should understand that, absent Federal authorization, the Democrat scheme is virtually certainly unconstitutional.
Dolph…taxpayer money should NOT be used to make that happen. Additionally, it certainly doesn’t help with learning English now does it? Are there not plenty of books on English translation available?
I’ve looked at the idea of requiring all documents to be printed in English, other than those required under state or federal law to be otherwise translated, and there are some implications here we need to be careful about.
Documents that help ensure compliance with regulatory, tax, public law or health and safety issues really might need to be translated into different languages in order to promote compliance. If we require these to be in English only, we could end up with some significant problems. Let’s not jump into this without getting some handle on the effects.
Now if the form regards a public benefit, or a right of citizenship such as registering to vote, then I’m with you. We just have to be cognizant of the effects we cause with things like this.
My understanding is that Virginia law already has specified that the official language of the Commonwealth is English, not that it’s made much of a difference.
I found the loophole and it is glaring! I stand by my statements. There are plenty of translation resources out there! Learning a language is based on will. Plus, one can always carry around a translation book if you need it. I have done it and it works!
Most definitely the best way to learn English, or any other language, is to speak it and hear it.
However, would you make it illegal for official communication to be provided in another language?
Now for those that argue against this….what about ALL the different languages out there! Are you willing to make those all available too?!?
Dolph….no official business language should be conducted in any other language other than English in my opinion.
I agree with Greg. There are times you just don’t want to paint yourself into a corner on this issue.
Matters of legality, safety, health, all need to be communicated effectively and reach as large as a segment of the population as possible.
So I suppose we should have a library full of these documents that cover every major language of the world then?
Dolph…what would you say to the local governments in Texas that conduct their official business now all in Spanish? What about all the other languages?
You cannot only select certain languages! Afterall….one never knows where someone might come from…right???
I wouldn’t say anything to the local governments in Texas. I would expect them to tell me to mind my own business if I did. I have no right, not knowing their situation, to comment on how they run their local affairs.
I think you have to use common sense about the use of other languages. If you need to convey important information, then it might be to the community’s advantage to convey the message in both English and in other languages if there is a significant population group who might not be English speaking. Of course all languages cannot be included. This is where the common sense comes in to play.
I am satisfied with the Virginia law. It declares our official language and doesn’t tie our hands should we need or choose to communicate in another language.
Dolph…what about the people that are outside of the chosen languages??? This is my point. To try and guess what they are is nonsense. English should be learned by all who want to reside here.
None of our government offices should conduct official business in any language other than English. Local governments must communicate with state government. State governments must communicate with the federal government. We need all parties on the same page with one common language…ENGLISH! If this starts splintering up…so does our country due to balkanization.
There will always be outliers. Nothing you can do about it. Hopefully family members will communicate for them. I have no argument with English being learned by all who live here. They should do so willingly. I also accept that not all people will, especially the older people. This condition has been the earmark of immigrant communities for generations.
Item #14 seems to be one of the hardest issues to tackle, and yet it seems to be one that is impacting our neighborhoods and communities the most. Greg and Turn PW Blue, any specific suggestions here for a solution that does what we want it to do without infringing on the rights of some people who might legitimately have reasons for housing irregularities?
Patriot, if you drink coffee…put it down…back away…and swear it off. lol
We can all agree that English is the official language. Thanks for finding the glaring loophole for us all, that was quite helpful.
I’m with you, man. I agree with you that we pander far too much. Printed media, entertainment and even as pointed out early, public events like highschool graduations all alternatively in Spanish have really weakened the English is the official language stance. The hand holding has gone on too long..Greg and Dolph are absolutely correct that there are some documents and some PSAs that simply now must be available in Spanish.
There is always, decaf
ManexicoResident said “some documents and some PSAs that simply now must be available in Spanish.”
Okay. I agree. The deportation papers and announcement must be in Spanish!
dolph said on 24 Sep 2007 at 12:55 pm
Item #14.
I was thinking that could’nt the county require all those who are landlords to obtain a landlord permit. Including those that rent out their own basement or rooms. This would make tracking the issue a little more simple. Thus without the permit, the overcrowders would have to claim that all the residents are family. which may be hard. currently i believe they say we are all family, AND this couple rents out the basement. Anyone caught violating zoning would lose the right to a rental permit. This would catch unscrupulous landlords and homeowner/overcrowders with one fell swoop.
Everyone claims “they are family”….how is this claim PROVEN and VALIDATED to make sure that they really are family? With all the false ids, fake names (aliases used), stolen identitites, that illegals and their supporters use etc….how can this be proven and validated with any accuracy?
Dolph: “Unenforced laws are silent amnesty,” - I sooo agree with you there.
Ok, that being said, I am right now in the capital of Brazil right now and let’s just say that everything written in this country is in Portugese. For the most part, if you want to see it in English, it will be at the food courts, which, by the way, kick our food courts BUTT in quality of food as well as service. Why is it that everytime I order something down here (with neither side of the counter understanding what the other is saying) it is ALWAYS RIGHT!!!
Just like Amnesty, the language should be an all or nothing approach. Why stop at Spanish? Why not Korean (we have MANY Koreans living up here in NOVA), Japanese, Thai, German, Portugese??? When will it stop?
If a person requires something that would, by definition, make them a permament resident (voting, DMV, etc) then by all means, English only. If it is a restaurant, they can have a menu with pictures of all their plates (satisfies the language barrier as well). To have a graduation ceremony done in multiple languages tells me this…”You are too stupid to learn English, and we know that. We also know that to succeed in this country you need a firm grasp of our language. Therefore, we will keep you down by speaking in your native tongue because we WANT you to fail and never get out of poverty”.
It’s time we stop playing MFL (Most Favored Language) and get back to doing the RIGHT thing for ALL people (and that includes deporting illegal aliens regardless of their country of origin).
John Light….that was nicely said! I have no further comments.
Rishell came to my house and talked with us. Her “getting tough on illegal immigrants” is to punish employers. Greg is right, only the Federal Government can do that and if the state tried to pass something to that effect it will get thrown out in court. In fact it wouldn’t pass the state legislature because the delegates and senators know that cracking down on employers falls under the jurisdiction of the Federal Government. She is not being truthful. I challenged her campaign office in that I asked if Rishell could send a letter encouraging the governor to have the state participate in the 287g program. She can post that letter on her web site. She will not do this and the reason being is that she is not serious about cracking down on illegal aliens. She knows Jackson Miller is serious about it and that is why we’ve seen tons of negative flyers from her bad mouthing Jackson Miller. She wants to sound like she is going to be tough on illegals but she is not. Ask her if she will write a letter to Governor Kaine asking him to enter the state in 287g. She can do that today. She doesn’t need to get to the legislature to do that. It is really simple to do and yet she refuses to do it. She claims it is not fully funded. Sorry, Prince William County is now in the program. RISHELL IS NOT GOING TO BE TOUGH ON ILLEGAL ALIENS! Her fellow democrats are singing the same tune as she is.
She has still not contacted me with her answer when I asked if she would endorse enrolling in the 287g program!
I want to know why networks don’t offer translations of Spanish tv shows into English, but we have SAP for translating from English into Spanish?!
The NFL sold out during the cowboys game! Spanish Spanish Spanish!
http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/principlesforimmigrationreform.html
“10 Principles for Immigration Reform”
Now these are great principles for crafting a strategy to resolve the illegal alien problem.
k.o’toole,
Good point. I do try and watch Univision to see how things are being represented and I would love to be able to know what the are saying. I can pick up on some words.
First, sorry about this morning’s posts (1,2 3x) I am not good with computers.
I am delighted to see the thoughtful exchange and learned a few things! My concern about paying for this is where will it end. Once the states take ahold of something and begin to pay for it, there is no turning back. This may sound silly but is there some way to find out what federal laws the Commonwealth can adopt and which they can’t? I mean we have corresponding laws for kidnapping and bank robberies, which , thank goodness, which allow local authorities to make arrests.
So would it make sense to find those laws that VA can adopt or pass and then move forward with that information? There are a lot of things on the 14Point Program and I am not sure which of those have the most liklihood of sucess from a state legal perspective. I think VA can determine what is a felony so that covers a few. Since we can’t solve the incoming problem, we can only take care of VA.
Can’t agree more with #11.
Regarding seizure - I’m for it and for more of it. Same thing happens with drugs. Seize the car, seize the business, seize the rental property and seize the home from the bank and let the courts figure it out. If you are not willing to make sure you are doing business with illegals you will pay. That provides some real dollar resources back to the localities to help pay for this and might enourage e-verify for private industry, better checking on identities and so forth.
At school I am teaching my students about government and how it is the duty of the executive branch to see that our laws are carried out. It is pitiful to think of how our government is failing us.
Greg, thank you so much for sharing your ideas. Yes, they might be expensive to implement, but we would definitely come out ahead financially eventually.
I just checked the number of petitions signatures for the state 287 g program listed at the top of the blog.
Here is the latest entry:
” Name Comments zip code e-mail address
1328. Ur mom man i think all of you need to shut the hell up, yea you got all this hate towards illegal but you sure dont complain when they fix your roads or your damn houses acting all tough on the internet like you about your words I would love to see any of yll go to Cali. and talk all this BS so before you start running at the mouth how bout you stop making them fix your roads do your dirty work that none of the americans want to do before you start complaining let them make their money, yea i think they should work towards being citizens but you cant go against every single person that is illegal what if they are trying to become legal, and by the way I’m a citizen so dont think this came from an illegal so check yourself before you talk all your BS”
I think it’s made up because of “yll” . Not too many legal Hispanics use y’all?!
humm.. redawn,
I wonder if his graduation was in english? If so.. I hope it was better english than what is written there..lol
redawn,
what total ignorance - the individual you quote is confusing a petition with a blog! I sure hope s/he never has illegal imports carrying out a Newark against family members due to perps continuing to be released into the communities.
That my friends is a product of our current education system???
Last time I checked….noone forces anyone to do any particular job! So get over the….”they do the jobs no American wants to do”.
I agree that they confused the petition for the blog.
I think it speaks for itself just like the sign. It is not a very good argument of the illegal supporters. I think just like the sign, it is good that it is on the petition.
http://www.repmetcalfe.com/?sectionid=59§iontree=59&itemid=442
Good article! PA taking action.
Greg L:
I have no problem with requiring a system like E-Verify provided that such a system is consitently accurate. According to the research done in Illinois when they passed their state law barring the use of E-Verify until it was shown to have few false positives, E-Verify (formerly Basic Pilot) has a 50% false positive rate. Having been through a situation where someone with a name similar to mine was on the terrorist watch list for air travel, I can attest to the inconvenience and hassle it is to be unfairly stuck on a list such as this. Imagine what it would be like if your livelihood depended on it? Again, do you for one moment believe that a vendor would wait for an appeals process for a time-sensitive government contract?
I know the actual costs of an office attending ICE training are covered by DHS, but the costs of overtime for other officers to fill their shifts while they’re in training aren’t covered. The additional personnel to process arrests aren’t covered. The costs of housing those awaiting deportation proceedings aren’t covered. Again, in principle, the 287(g) program is something we should be part of but not until we fully understand what the cost will be.
In principle, I really don’t disagree with most of your points. The devil, however, is in the details.
Just as you point out to The Patriot that blanket statements like “everything must be in English” can be counterproductive, so also are the implementation details of much of what you outline.
It’s very easy to say all of these things, for instance, will pay for themselves with the reduction in money flowing out to illegal aliens currently taking advantage of the system. But those figures are hard to quantify and won’t pay out in immediately evident ways. In fact, given the way many government programs work, you can expect that the bureaucrats in charge of these programs will find every way possible to hide such windfalls lest they see their program budgets slashed.
The “loophole” in Virginia’s official language law recognizes that there are federal laws that require equal access for persons with limited English proficiency to any federally funded program (that would include police departments that get money for gang reduction programs, social services agencies, health departments, hospitals, schools and the DMV).
The laws are Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and EO 13166.
http://www.englishfirst.org/13166/13166doj102601Q&A.htm
The Department of Justice Guidelines on implementing these requirements can be found here: http://www.englishfirst.org/13166/13166dojguide.html
Guys, we’ve tried this bit about making it “illegal” to speak a language other than English before. Here’s what the Supreme Court said in when we tried it with German in 1923:
The desire of the Legislature to foster a homogeneous people with American ideals prepared readily to understand current discussions of civic matters is easy to appreciate. Unfortunate experiences during the late war and aversion toward every character of truculent adversaries were certainly enough to quicken that aspiration. But the means adopted, we think, exceed the limitations upon the power of the state and conflict with rights assured to plaintiff in error. The interference is plain enough and no adequate reason therefor in time of peace and domestic tranquility has been shown. … As the statute undertakes to interfere only with teaching which involves a modern language, leaving complete freedom as to other matters, there seems no adequate foundation for the suggestion that the purpose was to protect the child’s health by limiting his mental activities. It is well known that proficiency in a foreign language seldom comes to one not instructed at an early age, and experience shows that this is not injurious to the health, morals or understanding of the ordinary child.
more and cite to decision here:
http://changeservant.blogspot.com/2007/02/nebraska-1923-revisited.html
In an increasingly global economy, we should be trying to be more like every other country in the world which encourages its citizens to be bi-lingual or multi-lingual. Making a value out of being resolutely uni-lingual and proud of it makes little sense if we want our children to grow up to be able to compete on the world stage.
The loop hole can be taken out. The Supreme Court at one time also said slavery was legal. I say that because the Court as we all know can change opinions over the years, and unless I am mistaken, I doubt any of the members of the Court from 1923 are still on the Court today.
Onevoice,
Please read my post again, it says not only businesses but illegal gang members…. This means I support going after businesses as well as illegals.
Claire,
In reading your post, I could not help but think about attempts to stamp out the Navajo language in Indian Schools in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Later, during WWII, the knowledge of the language proved invaluable to the defense of our country. Such irony. Perhaps I am thinking about this because of Ken burns’ The War which I am watching.
I believe that English should be our official language. English is the language of empowerment. In saying that, I do not want to stamp out other languages. Americans seem to believe that being uni-lingual is something to be proud of. Most educated people of the world find this concept bizarre.
I think the thing posters like The Patriot and others who are calling for mandated English as the official language is that making English the official language of government will not force every non-English speaker in the community to rush out to learn English. It simply means that when dealing with the government, that communication would occur in English. So, you’ll still hear Spanish at the 7-11. You’ll still hear Korean at the grocery store. You’ll still hear Urdu. You’ll still hear French.
Second, on the other side of the debate, let’s not confuse making English the official language with adopting a policy that we won’t want to provide foreign language education. You teach people to be multi-lingual and still have an official language.
All that said, I believe that language argument is a red herring. Past waves of immigrants have gone through similar cycles. The first generation tends to stay cloistered within their ethnic community and doesn’t readily adopt the language and customs of their new country. The trend starts to change with the second-generation and really moves with the third generation.
It is a good thing we are not like the rest of the World. Just how said and a terrible place it would be if we were exactly like everyone else. I would also love to see an America that is pretty educated, if we are as successful now without being educated, the sky would be the limit as to how powerful we could be. At that point, of course the rest of the World would complain about us being to rich and too powerful. I suppose in order to avoid all of that, we should continue to be a Nation that has only one official language and to encourage those that come here to live to also learn English and to not cater to those who want to pander.
I don’t believe anyone is in favor of “stamping” out a language. However, what people want is that when someone moves from their Native Nation to another one, they should have the decency to learn and use the language of their new Nation. It is a sign of respect.
Funny how liberals use the term “ugly American” to describe over zealous American Tourist who expect to be catered to in Foreign Nations, and who show a bit too much patriotism for these liberals. Yet these same liberals are in full favor of pandering and accommodating immigrants illegal or otherwise in their own language. They also want these same immigrants, illegal or otherwise to maintain their love of their Native Country. I suppose just another double standard by the left.
Turn blue,
On the second part of your post… What is different between now and the great waves of immigration of the past is how much “smaller” the Country is now. Sure past waves of immigrants kept in their ethnic neighborhoods, and so it was easy to maintain their Native language, however, once outside of those ethnic neighborhoods they had little chance of success or survival without learning English.
Now, with Nation wide foreign language television and many different radio stations, it is possible for at least a spanish speaking immigrant to go from one part of the Country to the other, and still be able to survive and be successful without having to learn English.
We will have to see how it turns out, but the more I see and the more I read, we are quickly sinking into a Nation where spanish is going to rival English.