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Rule Of Law Resolution Implementation Passes Unanimously
By Greg L | 17 October 2007 | Illegal Aliens, Prince William County | 313 Comments
The atrium outside of board chambers at the McCoart Center, photo courtesy of S. Botello
In a truly marathon session of the Prince William Board of County Supervisors that lasted about thirteen hours, the supervisors unanimously voted to fully implement the rule of law resolution, providing additional funding for the police department and restricting eight county programs to lawful residents only that had previously been available for illegal aliens. Mexicans Without Borders is now zero for three in their efforts, and further embarrassed themselves by the way they acted at the McCoart center.
Mexicans Without Borders had about a thousand people show up on their side, and with a few hundred Help Save Manassas members managed to completely overflow the McCoart center. Fire marshalls took control of access to the McCoart center well before the meeting started, and a noisy demonstration outside by the illegal alien lobby went on for several hours. It was largely uneventful outside, although seeing the illegal alien lobby chant “USA” while waving Salvadoran flags was a little strange, and them dragging a large American flag (probably not intentionally, but out of ignorance) on the ground was a little disturbing. I heard about one minor incident outside, but never got the details.
Corey Stewart wanted to limit each speaker at citizen’s time to one minute, but was overruled by the board which kept the time period for each person to a full three minutes. Over three hundred and fifty people signed up to speak. Until about 7:00 PM it was pretty even, but after that most of the regular citizens had left, leaving much of the balance of speakers heavily in favor of the illegal alien lobby. A few citizens watching on Cable Channel 23 from their homes got upset enough to come out to the McCoart center, and with that kind of motivation gave some great statements to the board. As the evening wore on, the crowd of illegal alien advocates in the atrium became increasingly boisterous, loudly booing speakers they didn’t agree with and applauding those they likes not only when they spoke, but when they exited council chambers as well. Fairly frequently this happened inside board chambers, despite constant efforts by Corey Stewart and Marty Nohe to remind spectators what the rules are.
A couple of speakers worth noting was one woman who shouted “Viva La Raza!” at the board, and to top it off at the end of her statement told the board to kiss her ass, sparking a rather strong reaction, particularly from Supervisor John Stirrup. Another native English speaker decided to deliver his comments to the board entirely in Spanish. From the reaction that was plainly heard in the atrium, and even some in chambers, the hispanic community really liked what he had to say. Plenty of speakers required translators, many of whom said that they had been in this country for over a decade. The translators ‘helpfully’ cleaned up some of the intemperate comments (such as those about a “civil war”) made by some speakers who required their assistance.
Some notable speakers on the other side was a young man who was a legal resident who was outraged at the idea of people encouraging illegal aliens, a woman who talked about how her family — including one member who waited five years in a displaced worker camp in Germany after surviving the holocaust came to the United States legally, and several residents who spoke about the issues that they’ve had to deal with as a result of illegal aliens unlawfully residing in their communities. Plenty of speakers thanked Chairman Stewart for send out his recent mailer telling residents about the meeting, and indicated that it made the difference for them in knowing when it would happen.
When citizens’ time finally closed after 2:00 AM, there was some discussion about how the supervisors felt about the issue and the board’s approach to it, and Marty Nohe introduced a resolution that added some educational components to the policy and established a consultation and evaluation program to ensure that it’s implemented effectively and fairly. Mike May made a conciliatory statement, and then surprised most of us by delivering that statement again in Spanish for the benefit of the immigrant community. At that point, the same translator which had been most responsible for diligently “cleaning up” what some speakers had said in Spanish probably realized that Supervisor May had understood everything that happened, and got terribly upset, jumping to her feet and launching into a diatribe. She closed that diatribe expressing her wish that all the supervisors burn in hell before she was ejected from the board chambers. Class act, these Mexicans Without Borders people are.
If we weren’t going to get a unanimous decision before that outburst, we certainly looked like we might get it then. Sure enough, the vote was unanimous in support of Supervisor Nohe’s resolution. Supervisor John Jenkins complained a bit about being strong-armed on this, but apparently gave into the pressure over his concerns that things have moved too quickly, despite that it’s been more than four months since we started talking about this. Mexicans Without Borders then went outside, had their usual meeting with plenty of chants, and with the press that hadn’t left by that point crawling all over the impromptu demonstration and meeting. It was a little more subdued than previous rallies out in front of the building.
The Board then continued on with the agenda, adjourning sometime after 3:00 AM. They really deserve our thanks for suffering through such a long meeting, and in the end it probably was the right thing to do to allow the hundreds of speakers the full three minutes of time to speak, even if that meant that the meeting would go on far longer than anyone would have reasonably imagined. It should lay to rest unfounded criticisms that the board isn’t interested in hearing from county residents, as they sat through twelve hours of citizen’s time that could have been cut down to four hours had time been restricted to one minute for each speaker.
So now Mexicans Without Borders slinks off to lick their wounds, Help Save Manassas retains it’s unbroken record of unanimous decisions favoring its policy positions, and illegal aliens should certainly be getting the message that no one is going to effectively protect their legislative interests. Soon, we’d hope that the immigrant community also begins to understand that what Mexicans Without Borders has been telling them has been false, that they cannot be effective in pursuing any legislative strategies, and that they really don’t deserve any credibility as self-appointed spokesmen for the immigrant community. They’re a complete failure.
They deserve it.
The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.
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Greg -
Thank you for that great recap and for hanging in there all night!
THANK YOU to all members of the Board for listening to and hearing the voices of the citizens of this country above those of the illegal aliens!
Thank you members of Help Save Manassas!
Thank God for our Legal Citizens who take our laws seriously. Thank God for Corey Stewart for mailing the Meeting Notice about this vote about to take place. Thank God for our Board of County Supervisors who LISTENED to their VOTERS. Thank God for Help SAVE Manassas, without their help, this issue might have festered for far too long. Thank God for Greg Laticq for sacrificing his time and efforts to champion our cause. Thank God for all the people who emailed, called and rallied to this effort. Thank God I was brave enough to stand up last night and give my spiel. Thank God for people like Ebert who tries to throw a monkey wrench in at the last hour, and it ends up hitting him in his own face. Thank God Pandak has him in her court, because birds of a feather flock together.
Thank GOD for WEDNESDAY!
Line Breaker! AMEN!
We should all write to the Board , this time to thank them one for doing the right thing!
THE POWER OF 8!!! UNANIMOUS YES!!
Thank You, to all that contacted our BOS, and made the voice of legal voting citizens heard!!!
PWCBOS,
Thank you. Youv’e done the RIGHT THING!!! We must continue to lead the nation!!
Greg & HSM members,
Thank you, for all the efforts to help make a change for the better!!
The RULE OF LAW WILL PREVAIL!!!
Thank you to the board and Thank you to Help Save Manassas!
We all have “United” regardless of color and it’s time to rid the area of “ALL ILLEGALS”!
This is disgusting.
It seems everytime the mexicans without borders people “take the stand” in their own defense, it backfires. They prove they have not and do not intend to assimilate, nor appreciate America.
THANK YOU, HSM & BOCS, for your sacrifice for our county & for our nation.
Let the Exodus begin.
By the way, now would be a good time to go to www.helpsavemanassas.org and make a donation to keep the effort going!
Line Breaker,
Let’s give them maps to Maryland! It’s just a short trip over the Pomtomac. Let the storm doors close.
Thank you, thank you one and all.
I am ever so grateful, not only for the efforts of board members, Help Save Manassas, the citizen speakers but also to MWB and their minions for proving that the invasion of our nation is thoroughly and utterly indefensible!!!!!
This is fantastic news! The MJM didn’t do half as good a job at reporting this as you, Greg. Thank you, BOCS, for showing citizens the leadership needed. … Now I wonder when the first lawsuit from some bogus group files against the County …
YES!!! THIS IS HUGE!!
Excellent smithers! Fear not my illegal friends because Manassas Park still welcomes you with open arms. It’s time to start putting the ban hammer down on the park officials now if they don’t fall in line. Get a speeding ticket, jaywalk, spit on the street and can’t prove you are a citizen — get deported. They will leave by themselves and then maybe some decent folk will move back into the area; namely my family who all couldn’t take any more of this nonsense and moved out 2 years ago.
Now would be a great time join HSM, if you haven’t already. Be a part of solution. Please, join us. Look at how much has been accomplished in a short time.
http://helpsavemanassas.org/hsmapp2.pdf
Having read the story in the Post, a number of things are clear to me.
1. The supervisors had already reached consensus before the meeting began yesterday afternoon.
2. The resolution has far less teeth than it originally did, in that emergency care and education are still protected and legal, while Medicare and food stamps were never legal, and the areas where there will be increased enforcement — abuse counseling, in-home healthcare for the elderly and homeless assistance — they’re not sure how much these will be affected anyway. Drug counselling will be cut off.
3.There will be no immigration sweeps or checkpoints.
4. I saw no mention of going after landlords that rent to illegals, causing major overcrowded living conditions.
5. There will be an attempt to crack down on businesses who hire illegal immigrants through the licensing process.
6. They have created a Criminal Alien Unit to work with federal immigration agents.
7. It called for a public educaton program aimed at immigrant and minority communities.
8. It directed the county to couple with a university or consulting group to study the fairness of the resolution.
9. It committed only $325,000 to fund the measure at this point.
I think, all in all, the board of supervisors made an attempt to handle this issue fairly for everyone, but I don’t think this is a win for Help Save Manassas in that this resolution doesn’t seem to do much about overcrowding.
[Ed note: Items 2, 3, 4, and 5 were never in the original resolution.]
Regarding my comment above, it is also clear that the 6-2 vote by the BOCS to overrule Corey Stewart on limiting citizens’ time to 1 minute per person was a way of telling Mr. Stewart that “We’re bending over backwards to be accommodating to you and to be fair to everyone. Since you’ve invited the entire county to the meeting, you need to be fair and listen to what your guests have to say.”
The BOCS should be congratulated, with the exception of John Jenkins who by his own admission was dragged along. (Isn’t it great to have leaders who find it easier to follow than, well, to lead?)
Back on subject. When the distracters try to slam the Prince William BOCS for this effort, please remind them, Greg, that the Supervisors were complying with Virginia law.
Yes, Virginia, in 2005, the following law was passed:
HB 1798 Illegal aliens; eligibility for state and local public benefits.
Public benefits; proof of legal presence. Provides that no person who is not a U.S. citizen or legally present in the United States is eligible for any state or local public benefits. The bill defines state and local public benefits, and sets forth a series of exceptions to this eligibility rule. The bill also requires applicants for state or local assistance to provide proof of legal presence in the United States and establishes a process for temporary receipt of benefits when applicants cannot provide such proof. This bill is identical to SB 1143.
Here was the vote in the House (Albo was actually a “Yes” on this vote):
YEAS–Abbitt, Alexander, Amundson, Armstrong, Athey, BaCote, Barlow, Bell, Black, Bryant, Byron, Callahan, Carrico, Cline, Cole, Cosgrove, Councill, Cox, Dudley, Fralin, Frederick, Gear, Griffith, Hall, Hamilton, Hargrove, Hogan, Howell, A.T., Hugo, Hurt, Ingram, Janis, Joannou, Johnson, Jones, D.C., Jones, S.C., Keister, Kilgore, Landes, Lewis, Lingamfelter, Louderback, Marrs, Marshall, D.W., Marshall, R.G., May, McDonnell, McDougle, McQuigg, Melvin, Miles, Miller, Morgan, Nixon, Nutter, O’Bannon, Oder, Orrock, Parrish, Petersen, Phillips, Pollard, Purkey, Putney, Rapp, Reese, Reid, Rust, Saxman, Scott, E.T., Scott, J.M., Shannon, Sherwood, Shuler, Sickles, Stump, Suit, Tata, Ward, Wardrup, Ware, R.L., Watts, Weatherholtz, Wright, Mr. Speaker–85.
NAYS–Baskerville, Brink, Ebbin, Eisenberg, Hull, Moran, Plum, Van Yahres, Ware, O.–9.
ABSTENTIONS–0.
NOT VOTING–Albo, Dillard, Spruill, Van Landingham, Welch–5.
ABSTENTIONS–0.
The vote in the Senate was unanimous.
So when Mexicans without Borders or any other advocacy group for illegals accuses the County of “not doing its job”, remind them that the County was COMPLYING with the law that the General Assembly PASSED in 2005.
The real question at this hour is if Prince William County thinks following Virginia law is important, what the heck is wrong about Arlington and the rest of this state!?
Please take note that Democrat leader Brain Moran voted “No” on the final passage of this bill. And he wants to be your Governor. Viva law and order.
Thanks for making me aware of HB1798…NOW we will implement it!
On another note, I see more and more arrests of illegals in this area/state…in today’s Journal Messenger, 10 illegals without ID’s were arrested after a accident and turned over to the ICE!
Maureen,
Thanks for staying and making your voice heard!
I think that was “mom” that a point to say “bye Maureen”.
I really that WAS “mom”! What do you think?
Thanks for being there with the few legal eagles that remained until the bitter end this morning.
If anyone has videos from last night, can you post it to you tube and let us know?
GREAT JOB Everyone!!!! Let’s keep the pressure on! Do NOT get complacent.
Make sure to contact Senator Webb and Warner…I heard yesterday that the Dream Act may be coming up any time again!
Anon @ 7:33
“The People’s Republic of Arlington” et al are ALL in DENIAL!!!
I guess it hasn’t landed on their door steps yet. They will change their tune when it does.
The “red carpet” is rolling up. Woo hoo!
http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/434494.html
The illegals will be pressing hard for the Dream Act read the article above. Also, contact our Senators about the no funding to Sanctuary Cities. Let’s keep the pressure on!
Why won’t the Federal Government pass a law like HB 1798 that prohibits eligibility for Federal public benefits! Come on America; follow the lead of the Virginia General Assembly (Republican controlled) AND Prince William!!!
Read Peace’s comments above.
From NumbersUSA:
“DREAM Act Amnesty Back on Table?
After the Senate completes action on the CJS spending bill, senators are scheduled to take up the labor, health and human services spending bill (H.R. 3043); this may occur as early as this evening. Some Capitol Hill sources are telling NumbersUSA that open borders senators may offer the DREAM Act amnesty as an amendment to that bill. Although we cannot confirm this, NumbersUSA members are nonetheless encouraged to contact their senators to stave off this possibility.”
ZAPATA has volunteered to lead all his ILLEGAL amigos out of the country…..don’t forget to take your push carts and taco trucks with you, ZAPATA…..
As one man said last night, only in America can you come home, turn on TV and see government in action, take a shower, go to the government center, and be on TV. This country is something special, and it’s worth our effort, our time, our sacrifice, our money, and if need be, our blood to protect it.
There is still plenty of work to be done. Once the Hazleton case is resolved in our favor, the laws that Peace mention above regarding renting to and hiring illegals will have to be passed. If you think last night’s marathon was something, you’all ain’t seen nothing yet. To paraphrase Robert DeNiro in “Scent of a Woman,” we’re just getting warmed up! Stay tuned, stay ready.
I agree with Advocator! We must NEVER get complacent again. We need to keep on top of things. Right now….start contacting your Senators to vote NO on the Dream Act. See my posts above. That is amnesty in disguise.
Advocator/The Patriot
We’ve only just begun!
Do you there will be less illegals at the Coverstone 7-11? Will either of you be able to report on this?
corr
Do you THINK there…
Lafayette, great speech last night! Where is the Coverstone 7-11? If I drive by it, I will report what I see. The Patriot Patrol is in full operation.
Does anyone think this paints the COP, Deane into a corner to stop not enforcing the law? I still think he needs to go. Without him refusing this order in the first place none of this nonsense would have been going on last night.
Can’t wait to see what his next excuse is for not enforcing the resolution.
Stilll think he needs to go……………………..
The resolution isn’t going to do a thing because it’s not being funded and there isn’t any statement about overcrowding.
The Patriot,
It’s behind the Pizza Hut on 234. It’s Coverstone Rd. Also, know as Williamson Blvd on the other side of 234. Near the Raceway.
Thank you very much.
Now we need to make Deane enforce the resolution!
Peace said on 17 Oct 2007 at 7:21 am:
“Having read the story in the Post, a number of things are clear to me…….”
“I think, all in all, the board of supervisors made an attempt to handle this issue fairly for everyone, but I don’t think this is a win for Help Save Manassas in that this resolution doesn’t seem to do much about overcrowding.”
You’re wrong Peace…this is very much a win for HSM. Every item that you noted (9 items) in the remainder of your above comment is PRECISELY what Help Save Manassas has been trying to explain to you and the rest of the community all along. Why do you think that the resolution was nick-named the “Rule of Law Resolution?”
That you, and so many of our local citizens and legal immigrants, have misconstrued this is because the illegal alien community and their apologists have intentionally portrayed this resolution as a racist, evil attempt to run all immigrants out of Prince William County…when this couldn’t be further from the truth. The purpose of this resolution was to firmly establish, and provide the proper tools, to enforce the State and Federal laws with regard to illegal aliens to the extent to which local governments have enforcement rights. That you and so many of your compatriots have bought into that disinformation circulated by the media and the well-financed illegal alien lobby should truly give you pause.
I believe the guy who said this at the meeting was the owner of the construction company that hires illegals. Only in American can admitted law breakers speak in public and not fear the law.
Don’t forget, Woodbridge Supervisor Candidate Chris Royse is hosting a press conference this evening at 6 p.m. in the Leesylvania Room at the Ferlazzo building. He will be commenting on the historic immigration resolution passage by the BOCS and his plans to strengthen the resolution within his first 100 days if elected. Light refreshements will be served.
Directions: http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=010011001170001675#2
“The resolution isn’t going to do a thing because it’s not being funded and there isn’t any statement about overcrowding.”
Cheer up Depressed…that was the purpose of the exercise in Democracy yesterday, and the subsequent vote in the wee hours this morning. The resolution itself had already passed…this last unanimous vote provided funding and actually implemented the resolution.
wtop has a very poor article on this issue on their front page. I wrote an email to the author
%————————-
To Hank Silverberg
Re: PW Co. Enacts immigration measures.
Mr. Silverberg,
I just read your article on the subject above and I am very dissapointed. Your article lacked substance and meaningful information. It really wasnt 12-hours of debate, it was 12-hours of time for citizens and illegal immigrants to speak. How much of that 12-hours did you listen to?
I listened to about 2-hours and I was appalled at many statements made by the pro-illegal speakers. Did you hear one called one county supervisor ‘Osama?’ Did you notice how rude many of the pro-illegal speakers were?
I dont live in that area and I just listened in out of curiousity, but when reading your article this morning, I could help but think that you are either biased or you really didnt pay attention to what happened yesterday.
Shouldnt be county board at least be commended for allowing 12 hours of comments from people, including those that are not citizens? I’d say they did give people a very fair shake to express their opinions and those against this bill proved themselves to be racist and disrespectful.
Please just reply with your justification for your short and substance lacking article. If you didnt get to listen to any of the 12-hours of speaking I can partly understand, but its still dissapointing.
Regards,
—-
%————————————————
I am very thankful that the resolution passed! Thank you to everyone who took the time to speak at the meeting, call and write to the PW Supervisors to encourage them to pass this resolution. The one item that we all need to remember is that the effectiveness of this resolution lies in the hands of those that are in positions to enforce it. Let’s hope that they do their jobs.
What we need to have now are regular status reports on progress being made at each BOCS meeting. This will hold everyone accountable.
Peace on 17 Oct 2007 at 7:32 am:
And listen he did.
Peace,
I think you are very confused.
1. Four supervisors went on record prior to last night’s meeting as supporting the resolution. Four would not commit. It’s impossible to say that there was a consensus.
2. The resolution never tried to cut off education or emergency medical care. Federal law mandates that these two things must be provided. There was never anything in the resolution that proposed to violate federal law.
3. Correct, there will be no immigration sweeps or checkpoints. This was never proposed.
4. Jay O’Brien has introduced legislation in the General Assembly that will rewrite the state’s residential overcrowding laws. The proposed legislation will limit the number of adults that can live in a home based on square footage (of bedroom space, I believe, not total square footage). This will prevent creating additional bedrooms by dividing existing bedrooms because the square footage would remain the same. It also does allow exemption by relationship, so people cannot make up relationships and keep illegal boarders. There will be no limit on the number of children in a home. The current law is unenforcable, as Manassas found out. This law, if passed, will correct that. The resolution never attempted to address overcrowding.
5. Again, Jay O’Brien has introduced legislation that, if passed, will yank the business license of any business that is convicted of hiring illegal aliens. Like #4, this is something that needs to be addressed at the state level, not county level.
6. A criminal alien unit that works with federal agents is an excellent idea. The only way to fight illegal immigration is with coopertion between local, state, and federal government.
7. I am not familiar with the PWC education program for illegals. What will they be teaching?
8. It is well and good that the fairness of the resolution will be evaluated at the university, since the PWC Human Rights Commission failed to do this task when it was assigned to them. We want the resolution, and we want it to be carried out in a fair and lawful manner.
9. The funding is light, only about 1/10 of what the cost is estimated to be. But they did immediate commit funds, so it can be implemented as soon as possible. Other funds can be allocated later, and perhaps can come from the savings derived by cutting off non-essential services to illegals.
Thank you to everyone. I and my family appreciate your efforts.
Thank you Board of County Supervisors! You really did listen to your consituents. You did a brave thing and we are behind you 100%.
Thank you, Greg, Chris and all those who live in Westgate, Sudley and the Gainesville district.
Thank you, to all of you in the other districts that joined us.
You all are heroes!
Depressed,
The vote was for funding and implementation. The vote was unanimous.
I think the biggest win for Help Save Manassas is the fact that the resolution was passed unanamously! This was done despite the court challenge, and clearly indicates that the PWCBOS is committed to the resolution and is willing to fight the legal challenge. That is a HUGE win!
I want to correct my earlier post at 9:09, 4. Does NOT allow exemption by relationship
By the way, I’ve always thought that those who make their off color and mean comments in Spanish should be careful because there are some (more than they realize) who understand Spanish.
Mexicans Without Borders again showed their true colors. ICE should come and take them all away.
Nancy Lyall, shame on you. You are the one who tried to make this a race issue. You should change your name to Nancy Liar. The name would fit you better.
Ms. Liberty had her 3 minutes of fame. What a fruitcake! I’m surprised MWOB didn’t have Uncle Sam there in his “I WANT YOU” pose at her side. Halloween came early this year!
Nancy Lyall (Liar)
Shame on you for taking money from these people, promising that if they work hard they can stay. I hope they realize that you are just scamming them for money.
Many thanks to all of the members of the BOCS! They can go home confident that they put aside special interests and acted on our behalf.
Many of us, including myself, became cynical about all of this. However, I am so happy that those concerns were unfounded!
Thank you again BOCS, especially Corey and John who were the drivers behind the resolutions and the Supervisors who took the biggest risks on our behalf.
You should all remember, however, that there is still a lot more work to do to reclaim our nation and communities. The crackpots, corporate interests who benefit from cheap illegal labor, and others who would steal our freedom will now be coming out in droves to file frivolous law suits, intimidate our BOCS and other County officials, and do whatever else they think might impede our defending our nation and communities. Supervisors and citizens – keep your resolve!
I must express my admiration for Greg and all of the fine work he has done. He kept the citizens informed. If we did not have BVBL and had to rely on the MJM, Potomac News, Washington Post, etc. we would have been in the dark as to what was going on in our community.
At the end of another very long meeting in 1787, the Constitutional Convention, someone asked Ben Franklin, “Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?” Franklin responded, “A Republic, if you can keep it.” Those who respect the rule of law, and who want to maintain the sovereignty and integrity of the United States showed that they want to keep the government bequeathed to us by the Founding Fathers. With an informed citizenry, activists motivated to take up the cause, and elected officials who act according to the will of the people, WE WILL KEEP IT!
It was over before it started. The Post said that Marty Nohe wrote the resolution that actually passed. He has a history of brokering decisions that all of the BOCS can live with. The Citizen’s time was just for show (and what a show it was… I hung in there ’til midnight on-line).
A solution where everyone wins a bit is good Government. I think all parties (HSM, the BOCS, even MWB) won a bit last night. Now I hope the divisiveness can end and honest dialog can begin.
The county is fractured. A lot of legal residents who happen to be brown or Latino were caught in the crossfire. Now, we will see if Corey Steward has the leadership skills to bring the County back together again. If he can do that, he deserves another term as Chairman, BOCS (and perhaps more).
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! Thank you to Mr. Stirrip, Mr. Stewart, Greg, HSM, The rest of the Board of County Supervisors, and all those citizens who spoke last night!! ~It’s a beautiful day in the neighborhood!!! ~
I was there for 6 hours listening to what was said - and what struck me was that most of the pro-illegals all had their talking points, and really don’t know the truth about the resolution and what it means.
Those that don’t understand English would only know what MWB is telling them. I think Mr. Jaurez (whatever)
is only into self-promotion, and should now climb back into the hole he crawled out of.
Maureen - sorry I missed you - what time did you finally get to speak?
Well, I must eat my words regarding Maureen Caddigan. I am so glad that she supported the funding as well as the other members of the BOCS. I was getting so depressed feeling that we the citizens had no real representation anymore. I am so glad to know that I was wrong. Greg, outstanding job! Actually amazing, it is hard to find people who step up to the bat and hit a homerun. You did it, you led us and inspired us and you succeeded. I do feel though that only “citizens” should be allowed to speak at “Citizen’s time”. However, this just made the problem very clear. I couldn’t believe the arrogance of so many of the people. I think Mike May speaking in Spanish at the end was masterful. Actually quite funny. Way to go Mike! I really feel hope that we can win our country back. It also shows that there has to be a way that employers can get legal workers if they need them. Probably from the embassy’s in their native countries. Of course they can’t pay them slave wages, so maybe it will always be a problem. I am not sure how to solve this, but someone like Greg will rise up with an answer.
Congratulations Prince William County citizens.
Your grass roots effort in organizing Help Save Manassas has made a difference. Kind of restores my faith in democracy. Thanks to Greg for his organizational and educational skills. Supervisors in Loudoun and Culpeper counties have something to use as a model to solve their illegal alien issues.
It also seems that even Gerry Connelly is changing his stripes one month prior to the elections. This man loves to pander to the voters. This is the same politician who said “it’s the right thing to do” in funding the Herndon Day labor (Day Care) Site for more than two years and wanted to build more to help the county day laborers. The ComPost is reporting that Fairfax County is looking at Fairfax county funding to illegal aliens.
For any Federal officials reading this blog, you might want to consider what happens when the public organizes around a cause. Note to DHS and ICE—WE expect you to enforce the law. Get it done.
We have less than one month before we vote on our local and state representatives. Let’s take all of that grass roots energy and get out the vote out for the candidates who support enforcement of our immigration laws. Talk to your neighbors. Offer rides to those who need help getting to the polls. Phone your friends and encourage them to VOTE.
Thanks to everyone that took the time to go down and speak. Those of us that did not or could are grateful. Lots more work to do though, and lets keep it up. Together we can make PW the great place to live that it should be for everyone.
Bruce Springsteen’s MY HOMETOWN
“I was eight years old and running with a dime in my hand
Into the bus stop to pick up a paper for my old man
I’d sit on his lap in that big old Buick and steer as we drove through town
He’d tousle my hair and say son take a good look around this is your hometown
This is your hometown
This is your hometown
This is your hometown
In ‘65 tension was running high at my high school
There was a lot of fights between the black and white
There was nothing you could do
Two cars at a light on a Saturday night in the back seat there was a gun
Words were passed in a shotgun blast
Troubled times had come to my hometown
My hometown
My hometown
My hometown
Now Main Street’s whitewashed windows and vacant stores
Seems like there ain’t nobody wants to come down here no more
They’re closing down the textile mill across the railroad tracks
Foreman says these jobs are going boys and they ain’t coming back to your hometown
Your hometown
Your hometown
Your hometown
Last night me and Kate we laid in bed
talking about getting out
Packing up our bags maybe heading south
I’m thirty-five we got a boy of our own now
Last night I sat him up behind the wheel and said son take a good look around
This is your hometown”
Who is going to make sure only “legal” residents vote?
“retiredwildgoose said on 17 Oct 2007 at 9:51 am:
The county is fractured. A lot of legal residents who happen to be brown or Latino were caught in the crossfire.”
This is ridiculous! Why? I did not see anyone last night of hispanic/latino heritage speak out against illegal aliens and that what they are doing is wrong. Why did they not speak out like the legal hispanics/latinos in the “You Don’t Speak for Me organization”?!? This speaks volumes! Could it be that those that attended last night are “aiding and abetting” (which means that they are part of the problem)? What I did see was a legal lady of Indonesian heritage, a legal man of Indian heritage, a legal lady of Iranian heritage demonstrate how they did things the right and legal way and as such enjoy the privileges of that behavior! Additionally, they demonstrated their love for this country by learning our traditions, values, and language and embracing these things as true Americans!
“what struck me was that most of the pro-illegals all had their talking points, and really don’t know the truth about the resolution and what it means. ”
That’s great. That’s why they’re leaving PWC. Three cheers for Riacrdo Juarez and every activist who makes them think the resolution is some type of real threat to their lawless existence.
Patty, 9:17AM said:
“Nancy Lyall, shame on you. You are the one who tried to make this a race issue. You should change your name to Nancy Liar. The name would fit you better.”
Absolutely agree Patty, but she is certainly not the only one who tried to make it a racial issue. Ms Leila simply could not understand that “the issue” was “The Rule of Law,” not a “racial issue” at all.
Furthermore, for those who witnessed the meeting yesterday, based upon speech or conduct, if one side of the argument (pro-illegals or anti-illegals) were to be generally categorized as more oriented toward hatred and discrimination based upon race (I guess that’s what “racist” means) which side would best fit that description?
If the MWB crowd really wanted the hispanics informed, they would have their translator translate the English speakers into Spanish for them (accurately of course). This one-sidedness is what keeps their rank & file under their control, buying their spin.
Greg said: “The translators ‘helpfully’ cleaned up some of the intemperate comments (such as those about a “civil war”) made by some speakers who required their assistance.”
So do I understand correctly that an illegal threatened THEY declare a “civil war”?
Actually, I have been expecting this for a long time. I do not look forward to a time when THEY resort to violence. That said, I think we must all be ready to protect our homes and families.
K. O’Toole, you are presuming that most of the Hispanics present couldn’t understand the English just because they asked for translation for their own words. Lots of people can understand speech in a language other than their own but are too nervous or uncomfortable to speak it, especially in public.
Anonymous, it goes both ways…. apparently Hispanics presume that all Americans can’t speak or understand Spanish. The traslator “cleaned” up several comments “thinking” that she wouldn’t get called on it. Supervisor May cleared up the misconception that American ONLY speak and understand English. THANK YOU Supervisor May.
Anonymous, why presume most CAN? Obviously, after watching the pro-illegals speak, they REALLY DO NOT understand how we do things here OR what the resolution REALLY does, and continued the talking points/spin which were spoon fed them by Lyall, et al.
Hey Juarez, Lyall, Steinbach…..so much for the pitiful FAILURE of your much touted “massive march”, lame boycott, and ineffective work stoppage. YOU HAVE NO SHAME. PW BOCS…..THANK YOU for remaining steadfast and supporting the resolution UNANIMOUSLY! It was a LONG night and you conducted yourselves with dignity and fairness. Some of the detestable things that were said by the pro-illegal speakers were quite shameful and racist, yet you didn’t flinch. YOU ARE TO BE COMMENDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mike Austin,
Agreed. Much of the “civil war” will probably be witnessed over the next months and predominately conducted by the gangs. I expect to see more tagging incidences and violence directed towards the community. And the MWB group will state that it’s all our fault. MWB will insist that our racist hatred has given them no choice.
Hopefully, we will also see an increase in truck rentals, one-way.
If I might add, a unanimous decision by the Board really sent a blinding ray of hope to many communities around the nation. This may small “snowball” but it’s quickly turning into an avalanche.
4kidsnadog, I never doubted it goes both ways. The translator was behaving unethically if she did that. Although it was just her doing that presuming, not Hispanics in general as you suggest.
Corr:
This may be a small “snowball”…..
Stayed up too late last night.
retiredwildgoose on 17 Oct 2007 at 9:51 am:
They put themselves in the cross-fire. How many of them did you hear stand up against illegal immigration? None, NADA, zip. They will stand for their own no matter if they are right or wrong. La Raza! That’s what drives them.
Be vigilant and on guard when out and about. Pro-illegal alien kooks like MWB brethren may be up to no good. As for me, I’m packing heat everywhere I go. Yes, Mike, we must protect our families and homes.
Patriot brings up an important point about who is overseeing voting registration. I guess that is another topic for another day though.
There was a very articulate young man from Jamaica there last night who spoke directly to the hispanic community, from the podium. He said he had come here illegally, went home and came back the right way. He basically said once he did that, he was no longer looking over his shoulder at every turn. He was very impressive.
THANK YOU HSM !!!! AND THANKS TO ALL THE MEMBERS AND SUPPORTERS.
THIS WAS A BIG WIN AND A FORWARD MOVEMENT.
THIS IS ESPECIALLY A GOOD START FOR A NEW BEGINNING IN WOODBRIDGE. NOV.6 WE WILL HAVE CHRIS ROYSE AND HE WILL I AM SURE PUT FORTH A CHANGE IN ORDINACES THAT HELPS THE POLICE AND PROPERTY CODE ENFORCEMENT TO CLEAN UP THE MESSES IN OUR STREETS AND HOUSES.
iT’S NOT OVER BUT YOU HAVE MADE IT COME A LONG WAY AND NOW WE ALL NEED TO FOLLOW THROUGH FOR THE BENEFIT OF OUR COMMUNITY.
THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH. GREAT JOB.
retiredwildgoose on 17 Oct 2007 at 9:51 am &
The Patriot said on 17 Oct 2007 at 10:40 am
There were several self-identified Latinos that spoke in favor of the resolution. Mainly ones who legally immigrated and recognized how the illegals were line-jumping and laws need to be respected. But one that stood out was a Jamaican who spoke at about 12:30AM. He spoke more to the audience than the board. He had come to the country illegally and was being taken advantage of by the low wages he was making working for a florist. So he went back to Jamaica and went about becoming legal. He then returned and found things much better - no fear, well received, etc. He was great as he could speak from both perspectives - as an illegal and as a legal citizen. He was quite good and chastised the illegals to go back and do it the right way.
Great Job!!! Now who that illegal aliens are being “kicked out” of our Manassas, maybe now we have more quiet streets, cleaner neighborhoods and the crime rate will go down. Exellent job to all of you!! But now, who is going to do the job they used to do? Who is going to get a job for less than 6 bucks an hour? Who will accept to work without any benefits? are you “legal aliens” going to do it? Will you be able to support yourself with a salary of less than $10,000.00 per year? I guess we all have to put our part to make this town great! I am a legal immigrant and I came from a hispanic/latino background, Am I going to get stopped just because I look like one? this is insane!!
Wow!
This site is like hopping in the ‘Way-Back’ machine. It’s like a time-capsule of all that was wrong with American South in the 1950s. I haven’t seen such a clear case for liebensraum since 1933. This is a fantastically impressive group. I’ve yet to see such uninhibited race-bating in my entire life.
I wonder madly at a group that hides so cleverly behind ‘Law and Order’ — as if that is the real reason for the outrage. If laws were passed tomorrow making illegal immigrants legal, you’d go right on hating them and their ‘push carts and taco trucks’ — as somebody so elegantly put it.
So yes, let’s round them up, make them show us their papers; and if they can’t produce them, we will detain, ghettoize, and possibly put them to work in some sort of labour camp.
One question, tho: is this going to be targeted exclusively at persons of brown skin with surnames similar to Sanchez? Because if it’s not, I’d love to hear how you plan on getting around the Equal Protection clause of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution. How many Canadians walk around with expired visas? How do they plan on catching them? They’re just as problematic, I’d think… as long as you really are about ‘Law and Order’ and not about hating any particular race. Will this enforcement extend to checking the ‘paperwork’ of white people? I certainly hope so. I hope the cops knock on your doors at 3AM and ask you to produce paperwork for yourselves, your wives, and your children.
It’s a pity there are all kinds of civil rights laws that prevent your desires from really taking hold. And those laws are the reason I love my country.
God Bless America
Somebody,
Businesses will have to start paying higher wages for the legal workers (or go out of business…period). If you are legal (and not aiding and abetting those who are illegal)…you have nothing to worry about.
I will be more than happy to carry around my legal documentation! I do all the time.
Hey northerner….are you perhaps from NY?
To all the legal latino / hispanic readers, I’d like to say that the sooner you join this effort and help Manassas / PWC residents take care of this situation, the sooner you will feel like you are not being swept up in this feeling that all latino’s are looked upon as “illegals”. I have some friends and neighbors who have told me that they feel terrible when shopping, etc., when ‘looked at’ like they don’t belong here. These are good neighbors, and good peolpe!
We welcome all those who are here legally and obey the laws of the land.
Please, attend the next HSM meeting and become part of the solution.
Disguised Racism?
going once
going twice
SOLD!
Somebody,
I must stress that things that need to get done have a way of getting done. Maybe the number of house cleaning services will go from 700,000 to less than 100,000. Maybe construction business will not be able to make an 80% margin on their construction costs. If it is truly important, it will get done, one way or another. The notion that the local economy will collapse if illegal immigrants leave is really placing far too much importance their “contribution.” Maybe businesses that cater to illegals will go under. Maybe that won’t mean the end the world as we know it! Maybe property values will increase, maybe PWC will get more real tax base. We’ll get by just fine, thank you. And if we’re wrong, it’ll be our problem, the legitimate citizens.
As for you getting stopped because of the way you look, that’s not how this is going to work. If you get stopped because you were doing something else wrong…..well, that’s another matter. Think of what those of middle eastern descent have had to put up with. Life goes on….suck it up. Many of us that represent the real tax base of this county are so sick of political correctness that we’d kill it with our bare hands if we could.
somebody at 1:48 pm:
“But now, who is going to do the job they used to do? Who is going to get a job for less than 6 bucks an hour? Who will accept to work without any benefits? are you “legal aliens” going to do it? Will you be able to support yourself with a salary of less than $10,000.00 per year?:But now, who is going to do the job they used to do? Who is going to get a job for less than 6 bucks an hour? Who will accept to work without any benefits? are you “legal aliens” going to do it? Will you be able to support yourself with a salary of less than $10,000.00 per year? ”
The legal US teenagers and college kids.
@ Northerner
“So yes, let’s round them up, make them show us their papers; and if they can’t produce them, we will detain, ghettoize, and possibly put them to work in some sort of labour camp. ”
HAHAHAHA!!!
Isn’t that what you Yanks and Libs are doing to them now? LOL!!!! You’re mad because your supply of cheap labor is drying up… or God forbid!!! MOVING TO YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD!!! Freakin lying hypocrits the lot of you.
It’s HORRIBLE that legal Hispanics may feel persecuted. The brunt of those feelings lie on the back of dimwits like Northerner that make this a race issue.
Many people here talk about obeying the laws of the land, to assimilate this culture and to become part of it. But let me ask you something? Do you guys remember what this country was based from? IMMIGRANTS!!! Who came in a boat and almost died here!! If it wasn’t for the REAL Americans who were compassionate and kind enough to offer shelter, food and tend to their wounds, they would’ve died and there wouldn’t be a country and you wouldn’t exist. You’d still be in England, rejected from society and isolated. And I also ask, where are the REAL Americans, the rightful owners of this land? Where are they? They were put aside and robbed from their land!! And you talk about assimilation??? Please!!!
http://www.examiner.com/a-993777~Fairfax_to_count_illegal_immigrants_and_identify_county_services_they_use.html?cid=rel-v1
I’m not sure that link comes out ok, but I happened across this article…I find it interesting that the Fairfax County Executive would want to count the illegal aliens living in Fairfax and then tally the services provided to them…all the while not disclosing this important and extremely relevant information to the public. Makes you say, hmmmmmmmmmm
I vote to ignore, really ignore those that use the following two words (in any form): 1. Racist, and 2. Xenophobic.
Those cards are extremely tired!!
@ ManexicoResident
Calling us racists and rubes didn’t work so now they’re scrambling because they don’t want their help moving into their neighborhoods.
There’s going to be a mass self-deportation from PWC and the sanctuary cities know it.
redawn, actually the legal US teenagers and college kids aren’t, at least not in this area and not in the numbers required. There aren’t even sufficient available for the relative cushiness of a life guard position temporaily in summer in this area.
The wages will go up and correct itself, WHEN the illegals leave. Much as I hate to say it, some of the illegals were taken advantage of/exploited however they brought it on themselves. Also, no one can make it on $10,000 a year UNLESS you live 20 deep in a house like the illegals did so this is another reason we need to rid the area of them.
I carry my ID around at all times and if the Police stop me, I have SUFFICIENT proof to show that I am legal and MY SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER MATCHES MY RECORDS and is not stolen. If the Police stop me and I have no idea, I can use MY SSN, illegals can’t do this since the SSN’s they have are stolen.
Believe me, once the illegals leave, the market will correct itself. Now, we all will see more towns/cities in Virginia and other states follow the PWC blueprint to rid it’s area of illegals which is even better!
Maybe when all of the illegals are gone then our kids will step up to the plate. It wouldn’t be the first time. And besides, the lawns will be cut, the homes will be cleaned, the burgers will be flipped, the french fries will be fried. And, if not, who cares!
So we might have to pay a little more for landscaping, cleaning and painting. We’ll just have to learn to deal with it.
As far as losing all of the low wage workers, you’re assuming that all the hispanics were illegal and will be leaving. There are many legal hispanics here who will want to work hard and they’ll take the jobs.
It will all even out in the end.
Im in college. and i refuse to get paid 6.50 an hour.
maybe you can take the jobs=)
I don’t think ALL the illegals will be gone. I think we will make a big dent in the criminal element of the illegal population. Chief Deane stated this fact again last night.
As for Ms. Redawn’s statement about teenagers and college kids, I agree. It is often difficult for kids that age to get the minimum wage jobs. Why would an employer want to have to work around such rascally things as scheduling for school attendance when he/she could just pull someone in from the illegal population who would work slave hours?
I don’t know about you guys, but I’ve always mowed my own yard and cleaned my own house… and I despise fast-food.
I can’t think of one way in which I’ve benefited from illegal labor.
collegekid,
You are so right. You should not be paid $6.50. You should be cutting your parent’s lawn, pitching in with cleaning house, and helping them paint and do repairs at no charge. Look at all they do for you.
Collegekid, not everyone has a life of privilege. Some students will take any kind of work they can get and they are grateful for the opportunity.
Pride goeth before a fall.
I made this a race issue? Maybe my dear friend ‘Mano’ failed to read the comments of comrades such as ‘go home, and take your taco trucks with you. There has been no mention of illegal canadians, and the requisit and hateful ‘go home, and take your delicious maple syrup with you’ — and I find that conspicuous. Mabye you don’t. I guess you’re ‘colourblind’ that way. My warm congratulations on not seeing this as a ‘race’ issue, because there’s all kinds of talk on this thread and many others on this site that indicate otherwise. One race has been singled out here. I didn’t do that. I merely commented on it. But somehow that makes me the liar and hypocrite. Fascinating…..
I might find myself saddened by this all, but the reason I find all of this so unconcerning is that similar, milder laws have been defeated in other parts of the country (e.g. Dallas). Immigration laws are not local domain. They are federal. Period. This is a settled issue. Go ahead and pump your fists and sing ‘We’re not gonna take it,’ but it’ll be nothing but pageantry.
To be perfectly honest, the only reason I read this stuff is the same reason I glance (occasionally) at Foxnews: I find it intensly amusing. But at the end of the day, be sure that these ordinances are letting legal and illegal immigrants know that they’re not wanted or welcome in PWC. In the intermediate and long run, I don’t see these laws and attitudes hurting anybody but PWC.
But don’t let me interrupt. I’m really enjoying the posts.
“Im in college. and i refuse to get paid 6.50 an hour.
maybe you can take the jobs=) ”
Awww crap… there goes the dollar menu. I think we’re fat enough. Probably wouldn’t be such a bad thing to see 99 cent artery cloggers go by the wayside.
i am with you Northerner.
justice 1:10 - “I’ll be packing heat wherever I go. We must be able to defend our families.” That kind of climate of fear is what this kind of action breeds. Does it make you happy, justice? Why do you feel threatened? Is there some distinguishing mark that says that you’re one of Help Sink Manassas? Things should be getting real peaceful now, shouldn’t they?
redawn - Surely you jest. American teenagers pulling weeds, cleaning motel rooms, washing dishes in restaurants, not to mention agricultural stoop labor! Their parents wouldn’t allow it. The kids might be considered losers!
As someone else said, there were a lot of imported life guards around this summer, because the American kids wouldn’t apply.
“Anonymous said on 17 Oct 2007 at 3:02 pm:
redawn, actually the legal US teenagers and college kids aren’t, at least not in this area and not in the numbers required. There aren’t even sufficient available for the relative cushiness of a life guard position temporaily in summer in this area”
So are you saying that there is such a multitude of ILLEGALS in PWC? If I am hearing you correctly, that is what we have been trying to say…We have a HUGE problem with ILLGEALS here.
Time will tell.
Glad we’re amussing to you, oh conceitful one… but
“There has been no mention of illegal canadians, and the requisit and hateful ‘go home, and take your delicious maple syrup with you’ — and I find that conspicuous.”
I personally have pledged equal detest of Illegal Canadiens if they so choose to shack up 20 to a house in my neighborhood and leech off my tax dollars. No search function on this site that I’m aware of, so I won’t hold that against you.
Your tired arguments and conceitedness have been heard time and time again by countless anonymous’s, anon’s, and the occasional Howie Feltersnatch. Believe me, we are not amazed by your glorious appearence or knack for diatribe. Do us a favor and grace another forum with your greatness.
By the way.
i pay every single dollar
that goes to my college.
Not like the “privileged kids”.
not my PARENTS or my GRANDPARENTS.
ONLY ME
okay, so we have to suck it up.
maybe you can quit your 9 to 5
and start working at Wendys
Northerner
Re: Canadians walking around with unexpired Visas comment:
Have you done research to compare the estimated # of illegal Canadians to Latino/Hispanics #’s? If so, I would like to see this documentation. Legal citizens have become alarmingly concerned because the # of hispanics entering illegally has become so enormous, and their decision to do so is placing a financial strain on the school and healthcare systems. I would imagine that more U.S. hospitals are seeing a higher # of Latino/Hispanic babies being born compared to the # of Candadian babies being born.
Re: are they going to be rounded up and put in some sort of labor camp; how about sending them off to Iraq? I wonder how many would be willing to agree to that instead of being deported?
Northerner said on 17 Oct 2007 at 3:22 pm:
One race has been singled out here. I didn’t do that.
No, you didn’t. They did it themselves by coming over the boarder in droves and a good number of them ending up in Northern Va. There have been Hispanic illegals in this area for years but during the past 2-3 years it has been an invasion that is hard to miss. 10-15 people living in a single 1700 sf house, 8 cars parked on the street and the lawns, pack standing at the 7-11’s and on stree corners. Gang activity escelating and neighborhoods being trashed. They had it good until they decided to move all of Mexico and Central America into this area. Sorry!
Krutis at 3:29 pm:
I am a mother of 2 teenagers and have no problem with them earning a dollar the good ole American way thru HARD work and EARNING respect in the work force to keep climbing up the ladder.
They have to start small, crawl before you walk. It is a lesson to
be learned called appreciation. I can’t speak for parents who would think otherwise and consider their kids loosers.
Once the illegal aliens leave , property values WILL go UP. There will be less trash in the neighborhoods, no parking of vehicles on front lawns, no overcrowding, less crime. Northerner and Somebody2: you are spineless bleeding heart illegal alien lovers…..cry, complain, spit out your usual racist, bigoted rhetoric….you just can’t stand it when the rule of law is applied because in your little worlds there is no law….its all grey, just like your tiny little minds.
“collegekid said on 17 Oct 2007 at 3:36 pm:
By the way.
i pay every single dollar
that goes to my college.
Not like the “privileged kids”.
not my PARENTS or my GRANDPARENTS.
ONLY ME”
CONGRATULATIONS to you for doing it on your own. That is a wonderful thing and you will be greatful and learn so much from that to appreciate things in life- not take things for granted.
“okay, so we have to suck it up.
maybe you can quit your 9 to 5
and start working at Wendys”
What exactly are you learning in college to say this?
Collegekid:
Both of my daughters worked as lifeguards during their college summers. One met her husband who was also a lifeguard at the time. They made around $8 per hour and got as much time and a half overtime as they wanted. Granted, both have full ride tuitions because of their academic and athlete abilities, but yet, they got off their butts and went to work.
Maybe you think too much of yourself.
Woah, Brother Justice,
I never called you names. Why are you so full of hatred? I never said anything bigoted or racist, and never said I can’t stand the rule of law being applied, and you have no indication that my brain is any particular size or colour. I, in fact, currently posses a spine, my heart bleeds, but only in the function of pumping blood, as any normal human heart should.
Is there anything else you’d care to misrepresent?
If this is the extent of your logical argument, I think you should let some of your more informed friends speak.
some of you have a high ego, redawn do you always have an answer for everything? If you are a well educated person, how come are you on this blog all day?
Krutis, you just don’t get it. The “climate of fear” as you state, has been brought on by the MS-13 gangs , mothers and daughters walking into Wla-Mart , 7-11, malls, and on and on, that get heckled, insulted, and propositioned by hispanic men , going for a walk at nite and a car load of hispanics yelling “muerte a los gringos”. Yes, thanks to HSM and a board of supervisors that had the guts to uphold the law, things will get peaceful in our county. Why don’t you go and take you valium and cower under a table, close your eyes and hope that things get better for you.
Good for you, redawn! I only wish there were “respect in the work force” for all the different jobs our (il)legal Latinos do. As for “climbing up the ladder”. Most of their ladders have no rungs.
justice - you’re certainly full of venom!
What was wrong with the woman that fell out of a ?four? story window, then fell off of a 40 foot ladder? I don’t think she was very smart if she let this happen to her twice.
Keokuk said on 17 Oct 2007 at 3:46 pm:
Collegekid:
Both of my daughters worked as lifeguards during their college summers. One met her husband who was also a lifeguard at the time. They made around $8 per hour and got as much time and a half overtime as they wanted. Granted, both have full ride tuitions because of their academic and athlete abilities, but yet, they got off their butts and went to work.
Maybe you think too much of yourself
I’m with you collegekid!!.. Just wondering Keokuk.. who paid for your daughters car,rent, insurance , health insurance, and all other bills?? YOU!!!!.Be realistic nobody can survive with $8 an hour… I do pay for my bills, I go to college, pay my tuition, work 40 hours a week and I mother of 2. I do not have my daddy and mommy to pay for all my bills like your spoiled daughters!!!!
And Please do not erase comments!!!!
They have no rungs in their ladders because they came here illegally. Like the Jamaican said last night ‘ Go home and do it legal and they will welcome you!’ Then you get the rungs to climb!
“I’m with you collegekid!!.. Just wondering Keokuk.. who paid for your daughters car,rent, insurance , health insurance, and all other bills?? YOU!!!!.Be realistic nobody can survive with $8 an hour… I do pay for my bills, I go to college, pay my tuition, work 40 hours a week and I mother of 2. I do not have my daddy and mommy to pay for all my bills like your spoiled daughters!!!!
And Please do not erase comments!!!!”
That is great , you are doing everything you can do. Do you get child support? If not you may quailfy for gov. benefits as long as you are legal. That is who it is set up for. People like YOU, LEGAL citizens doing everything you can. That is when it is ok to get help.
Northerner on 17 Oct 2007 at 1:59 pm:
Something for you to ponder over:
http://www.heartheissues.com/illegal-immigrants.html
Kru, yes, it may sound like fear to you. Are the latinos the only ones who can claim fear? It works for them, so why not?
collegekid, your adolescence is showing. You lack a frame of reference for the things of which you speak. Give it a few years and hopefully you will have a little more experience in this area. My college-age dependent was happy to work for minimum wage when starting a job 4 years ago, in high school. Stuck with the company, did a good job, got raises, did not waste money on junk food, ipods, etc., and is able to foot the bill for some college expenses, does not have the “entitlement” attitude.
me-n-u,
what are you talking about?
No Kutis, not venom. Just completely fed up with the mess the illegal aliens have left our county in. Thank GOD for Help Save Manassas and the legal citizens that are tirelessly making the effort to clean things up.
donoterasemycomment!! I’m with you collegekid!!.. Just wondering Keokuk.. who paid for your daughters car,rent, insurance , health insurance, and all other bills?? YOU!!!!.Be realistic nobody can survive with $8 an hour… I do pay for my bills, I go to college, pay my tuition, work 40 hours a week and I mother of 2. I do not have my daddy and mommy to pay for all my bills like your spoiled daughters!!!!
And Please do not erase comments!!!!
Answers: They bought their own used cars. Paid their own “rent” while at college with the money they earned. Health insurance was covered under my Corporation at no additional expense to me. But I paid for their car insurance as long as they didn’t get a speeding ticket. They didn’t have any “other bills” that I know of.
Spoiled daughters????? Why would you say that? You’ve never met them. You sound like you have a chip on your shoulder. Wouldn’t your mommy and daddy help you if they could? Isn’t your husband helping provide income or do you have one?
Like redawn said, seek help if you are legal. Leave if you aren’t legal.
*****And besides, the lawns will be cut, the homes will be cleaned, the burgers will be flipped, the french fries will be fried. And, if not, who cares!*****
If this is the base understanding of a local economy, the entire county of Prince William has my sincere sympathy. Any business closing has a ripple effect that will eventually be felt by… forget it. I’m not your econ 110 professor. I’m just sad at such blind-faith that ‘everything’ll be fine’ when tinkering with HUGE cogs in the economic wheel.
Anon,
I’ve seen the statistics. But thanks for posting them. My point was not that Other illegal foreign-borns are equal in size to those from Latin America, only that they, too, exist.
My point is that the laws would change were it not for people who advocate rounding them all up and bussing them back to Mexico (which begs the question, how? midnight raids? separating crying children from their mothers? Man hours? Processing facilities? buses? do they dump them on the border with no food and water? where do these things come from? — Would we prefer to pay for all of this–which will be impossibly expensive– or do we let them keep paving our roads, building our banisters, and getting their kids into school to build better lives? — this was a longer aside than I intended) — These people would pay back-taxes and then would be responsible to pay in the future. If they don’t, they’d be delinquent, like you and me. Then they’d be paying for the resources they’re using.
So… To recap: round them up, bus them home = economic and humanitarian impossibility (Honestly… even if we could pay for it, would we want to be a nation with midnight raids, arm bands, et cetera?)
allow them to work/pay taxes = the only pragmatic policy proposed yet.
I’d love to hear an economically possible solution. I’m all ears and very open to the possibility.
I have been wondering about this. Why were their tee shirts green yesterday? Did it symbolize something like money or was it someone’s favorite color who had the shirts printed?
I would have thought they would have used red, white and blue tees because it would have created a better media opportunity for them and garnered more sympathy.
I 100% support the resolution but from a strictly marketing perspective, the pro illegals really screwed up with the color of the shirt, their message on the shirts, their spokespersons and the consistency of their message.
Keokuk said on 17 Oct 2007 at 4:25 pm:
donoterasemycomment!! I’m with you collegekid!!.. Just wondering Keokuk.. who paid for your daughters car,rent, insurance , health insurance, and all other bills?? YOU!!!!.Be realistic nobody can survive with $8 an hour… I do pay for my bills, I go to college, pay my tuition, work 40 hours a week and I mother of 2. I do not have my daddy and mommy to pay for all my bills like your spoiled daughters!!!!
And Please do not erase comments!!!!
Answers: They bought their own used cars. Paid their own “rent” while at college with the money they earned. Health insurance was covered under my Corporation at no additional expense to me. But I paid for their car insurance as long as they didn’t get a speeding ticket. They didn’t have any “other bills” that I know of.
Spoiled daughters????? Why would you say that? You’ve never met them. You sound like you have a chip on your shoulder. Wouldn’t your mommy and daddy help you if they could? Isn’t your husband helping provide income or do you have one?
Like redawn said, seek help if you are legal. Leave if you aren’t legal.
Keokuk:
You dont know anything about me !!!. By the way,I do have a husband or because I’m Latina I do not deserve to have a husband?? I am an american citizen!!. I work 40 hours and I do not depend on my husband like your daughters do!!! I dont have mommy and daddy to pay for my insurance, or free health insurance.. I pay my college tuition, my children daycare and every expense that I have. Do you still think that I can survive with $8 an hour??. Do you? What about your daughters? opss I forgot that they “do” have a husband to pay everything for them,right???..
Northerner - You might as well give up. I have tried to point out the domino effect on this blog, but most don’t seem to understand that everything is inter-connected. When you do something, something happens, and when that happens, something else happens, etc. etc.
Legal 2 - When you feel you have to “pack heat” to feel safe, isn’t that FEAR?
justice - Yes, VENOM!
donoterasemycomment!!
My but you do seem to have chip on your shoulder. Get help, including a good psychiatric doctor. He/she might help rid you of the hate pulsing through your veins.
Oh and by the way, though both daughters are married, they have jobs so I wouldn’t say they were dependent on their hubbies.
Have a nice day and hope you get better.
Mando, you can’t think of any way you have benefited from illegal labor? So you produce all your own vegetables, fruit, meat. How big is the farm?
Everything is life is relevant. If this area is TOO expensive to live in, there are options. People have to live within their own means. It is called being REALISTIC and working with what you have. I personally can afford to live here, could I afford to live in Mclean? NO, so I simply live where I can afford to live with what money I make.
Advocator said on 17 Oct 2007 at 8:17 am:
If you think last night’s marathon was something, you’all ain’t seen nothing yet. To paraphrase Robert DeNiro in “Scent of a Woman,” we’re just getting warmed up! Stay tuned, stay ready.
**correction**
Al Pacino played the roll of Lieutenant Colonel Frank Slade’s
“I’m Just Getting Warmed Up”
Trask: Are you finished, Mr. Slade?
Slade: No. I’m just gettin’ warmed up. Now I don’t know who went to this place–William Howard Taft, William Jennings Bryan, William Tell–whoever. Their spirit is dead; if they ever had one, it’s gone. You’re building a rat ship here. A vessel for sea going snitches. And if you think you’re preparing these minnows for manhood you better think again. Because I say you are killing the very spirit this institution proclaims it instills. What a sham! What kind of show are you guys puttin’ on here today. I mean, the only class in this act is sittin’ next to me. And I say, this boy’s soul is in tact. It is non-negotiable. You know how I know. Because someone here–I’m not gonna say who–offered to buy it. Only Charlie here wasn’t selling.
~~ just sayin’, you know for the record and all
Anonymous said on 17 Oct 2007 at 5:23 pm:
Mando, you can’t think of any way you have benefited from illegal labor? So you produce all your own vegetables, fruit, meat. How big is the farm?
My goodness! Did we drag you here to do these jobs…..clean, cook, grow and pick vegetables…..? I thought you wanted the American dream, blah, blah….but all you want to do is hate Americans. You sound like you absolutely hate living here.
Did we hold a flippin’ gun to your head, drag you here and MAKE you take these jobs? Easy fix - go home and do those same jobs in your native country. I’m really getting quite tired of hearing all of the whining and HATE!
MCR, Nobody dragged anyone. On the other hand, every one of you benefits from illegal labor unless you do not buy any fruits, vegetables, or meat (lots of other products too, but let’s just go with those).
It seems like all the racists remarks were coming from the pro illegal group. Did you see how near the end they started calling the Board racist? Did you see the lady tell the Board “kiss my a–”? They sure shoot themselves in the foot.
WOW - that is one heck of a benefit! I feel like the luckiest girl in the world!
The benefit will come when they all start to self deport!!!!!!!!!!!
Patty -
People like Krutis like to acuse us of spewing hate and venom. He obviously did not watch the “show” last night to see his fellow countrymen/women spewing nastiness throughout the McCoart building. He’ll conveniently let that slide.
MCR - Who do you suppose started it way back?
College Kid, don’t ever say NEVER….there may come a day (when you get hungry enough or cold enough) that you would beg for a $6.50/hour job.
All of us face the potential for economic times much worse than they are today. Are you “special” and thus exempt from that possibility or would you prefer to live off of society?
I was asked to post my opinion of last nights BOCS meeting to the film makers on youtube at:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=9500Liberty
I believe that it is wonderful to be living in America and being able to have your voice heard. Last night at the BOCS meeting, even self professed Illegals where given the change to speak.
It was a good show of democracy. I was sympathetic to the voices I heard and that they were trying to make a better life for their family, etc. I do not deny that and I understand that.
I was born here in Manassas, Virginia. That is all I did, to become a US citizen. There are other Immigrants that have fought hard and earned every ounce of their citizenship. They EARNED the right with Respect and came to America for whatever reason they personally had, but did it the right way, the legal way.
They are the ones who truly feel that it is a slap in the face, like the disrespect of jumping to the head of the line.
Life is not fair. No one gets anything handed to them. I think it makes for a better appreciative person by working hard and doing the right thing. That is simply the way I was brought up an teach my children the same.
I was also upset at the arrogance of the self professed illegals that said they are not leaving, even to the point were some were speaking in the tone of a threat. That is not how things get done. It only creates a deaf ear.
I also saw that some children born in the US of illegal parents speak. This concerned me. I feel that their children were being used as a pawn. I ask the illegal parents, if you knew you were taking the risk of coming here illegally, and could face possible deportation, why would you risk getting pregnant and having children. I feel that they can only blame themselves. It was not showing responsibility.
I was also disappointed that there were a lot of legal immigrants that did not clearly understand what the resolution was all about due to not having the facts or because of a language barrier.
It is a resolution of illegal vs.legal, not against any race, gender or religion. I think that a speaker from the county could have spoke before citizen’s time at both, last night’s meeting and the one on July 10th to make it clear what this resolution is all about. If the chairman felt it necessary to send out flier to alert the residents of Prince William County, it should have been followed up with this step.
Education works. Rumors and fear could have been dispelled.
I am disappointed in our Federal Government for letting things go unattended for so long. They are the ones that I blame. Life is all about checks and balances.They simply have not done their job.
I am still seeking answers myself as to how and why we Americans have gotten to this place and debate.
.
I also remember 9/11 very vividly to this very day. We live just few miles from Washington, DC,our Nations Capital and that elevates the danger of who is here in our country. The reason for us in Prince William County to take action.
I am just left with the question of why our borders have not been secured.
I hope this can be answered soon. I also wonder if there is any truth to The North American Union.
I appreciate what you film makers are doing.
It is through good communication that there will be a better understanding for us all.
Good Bless America, my home sweet home.
Redawn
redawn, many if not most legal immigrants in this country oppose immigration crackdowns. They have made that clear at the ballot box and in political organizing. Many have illegal aliens as friends or family members. Some were once illegal themselves, but had their status regularized. Some know or fear the kinds of racial profiling that occurs. Some have already experienced it. Some are just sympathetic even if they themselves did everything according to the law. They know the reasons the illegal workers are here and it has nothing to do with any takeover.
Does anybody really think that the 9 hours or so of Citizens’ Time really made a difference in the final vote? I think not. The BOS had already made up their minds. The 9 hours of gibberish pro and con were just sound bits for Stewart’s campaign. The people who spoke had no outcome on the final result of the vote. It wasn’t a democratic debate, it was just a monolog and a waste of time. How many resolutions have the BOS passed over the years that were accompanied by 9 hours of Citizens’ Time before the vote — None!! It was nothing more than a sham. Did you’ll see Stewart leave Citizens’ Time to go get interview by CNN? So much for his flyer.
“CollegeKid2 said on 17 Oct 2007 at 3:50 pm:
some of you have a high ego, redawn do you always have an answer for everything? If you are a well educated person, how come are you on this blog all day?”
You have learned your first lesson, to ask: WHY?
A legal immigrant may have family and extended family here who are not. There’s a problem when one can walk back and forth between two countries. At some point the immigrant has to commit to one country. That’s the problem with dual citizenship–two countries may not always have the same self interests. I’m afraid there are some legal immigrants who see US citizenship as merely a convenience–a job. They don’t “get” what it means to be an American. I would guess that it’s these types who support illegal aliens and amnesty.
Well said, redawn!
———————————————————————————–
collegekid,
People will work for any amount of money if they get desperate enough. While you are at college big-assing at the rest of us, who are obviously older, please study some history. Start with the Great Depression. While you are at it, take a remedial English course. You need it.
Ordinarily I try not to be cruel, but your youthful arrogance struck a nerve. My ‘mommy and daddy’ paid for my college. However, they did without for many years so that they could put 3 kids through college. My own father put himself through college by playing 3 sports. This was long before the days of fancy athletic scholarships. I am extremely grateful to them.
Michael: I would not expect the supervisors to seriously consider what illegals say they want. That would be grounds for recall. What illegal aliens want should be a matter of complete indifference to the BOS.
Good point Michael,
Almost like, a person that lives in West Va or Va and work in DC or MD as an example.
I am sorry, I said Michael and meant Monticup.
Dolph,
Thank you..I believve there are STILL technical difficulties with YAHOO
Speaking about commuting–did you hear about the Mexican man who has treatment-resistant tuberculosis who has been back and forth over the border 76 times?! Think of being stuck on a plane with someone that sick. How many people has he infected?
Perhaps the open-speak at the BOCS was a good lesson in American civics, for all concerned. Many of those from Latin American countries probably have never seen democracy at work and would have been shot in their countries of origin had they attempted to do such a thing.
As painful as it was to watch the marathon, I reminded myself that freedom is not free. There is a cost. Last night was just a little dues-paying. I am glad they were allowed to speak, and I am not sure why, other than this is America.
monticup at 7:50 pm,
No, Where did you find this story? I have been more concerned today with the Staph infections that are being reported and a death of a 17yr old Bedford Co. teenager in VA and talk of it to cause more death than Aids. A super bug, and NO I am not blaming illegals…
About Americans filling in for jobs, the Times ran an interesting article about what happened after a crackdown on illegal workers at a Smithfield plant. Seems American workers took the jobs, but are leaving in droves.
“So far, Smithfield Foods, based in the Hampton Roads town of Smithfield, has largely replaced Hispanic-heritage workers with others, who often leave poorly paid jobs for higher wages at the plant here. But the turnover rate for new workers - many find the work grueling and the smell awful - is twice what it was before the work force changes”
Here’s the full article via a link from another paper that reprinted it:
http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=134583&ran=89076
Funny a Springsteen song should be quoted in full since, not surprisingly, his politics are the opposite of those of the quoter’s. In fact, he has songs directly about the lives of illegal immigrants on his album The Ghost of Tom Joad.
Leila,
I posted the song in full lyrics as to what he was saying.
My hometown, Your hometown. It speaks of both sides.
redawn: The Washington Times has the story of the man with treatment-resistant TB.
Very scary stuff. DHS really messed up as well.
http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071017/NATION/110170103/1001
Wow. I live on the other side of the river, Maryland and I think there’s a lot more than meets the eye that is going on here. Where I live, I don’t see the problem, but in other parts of the county I live in, the problem of illegal immigration seems to be pervasive.
Then again, I have no idea who is legal and who is not.
I have been lurking on the site for a few months, and while I agree with some the logic that has been expounded on the site I feel there is a lot of xenophobia behind all of this along with general fear of a culture change.
As much I don’t want to inject race and culture into this, it is very much about race, assimilation, culture. A lot of people I see fear their area changing from where people looked like them and shared very much the same ideologies and ideas, to one where people are different from them.
In the end, I don’t much nothing changing and not much going on no matter much legislation is passed. What happens when the authorities indeed make a mistake and pick on the wrong person, family or group? As well, what happens when nothing changes, or your taxes have to raised to support what you want?
I give you all credit for the movement; however, what is going to be accomplished besides more strife in the community, problems and potentially a lot of backlash?
I am trying to see the forest from the trees here, and there’s a lot more to what meets the eye here than is being purported.
Dolph said: “Perhaps the open-speak at the BOCS was a good lesson in American civics, for all concerned. Many of those from Latin American countries probably have never seen democracy at work and would have been shot in their countries of origin had they attempted to do such a thing.”
America has so much to offer the world. What we saw Tuesday night was just one small example. Despite the many problems we struggle with in America today, and our very real concerns about where we are headed, America still works pretty dog-gone well.
The illegals have watched the wheels of democracy turn, and how the voice of the everyday American can actually be heard (Let’s face it, even we ourselves were not 100% sure that it would). They have seen that we don’t need strikes and boycotts and demonstrations, just clear-headed thinking, the power of persuasion, a little patience, and a bit of grace. And if they have been paying any attention at all, they will hopefully take away the very powerful, and very American idea, that we hold the law in very high regard.
The jobs these people have enjoyed come from a free-market based economic system. Most of the jobs were not created by the government, but by everyday people taking risks, starting businesses, and pursuing their dreams. The income they have earned has given them a taste of freedom that they could not enjoy in their own country.
I make note of these very special traits of America not because I think I, or any other American, is a better person than those who have snuck into our country illegally. I make note only because our political system and our American culture, born out of its unique ideology and views of the human race, IS superior to other systems and cultures. And that is why so many want in.
Frankly, we citizens have little to boast about. For the great country we share and treasure is actually an inheritance from our nation’s founders who left us a very wonderful treasure chest full of superior ideas and very functional institutions.
If the illegals somehow make it back to their own country one day, perhaps they can take some of America home with them and improve their own nations.
One can only hope.
Krutis….you STILL don’t get it. HSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
Leila,
But the point is they are finding Americans to do those jobs. Even with a high turnover rate….. Lots of segments have high turnover rates, such as fast food, and retail. Yet, somehow there are Americans who will do those jobs. Funny, if you listened to half the folks speak last night, if it were not for illegals, America simply would not exist.
Well did anyone see a mass exadus this morning? After all the chest pumping and crying last night, I expected after the vote was taken those that said they would leave the County would not stick around for long. Opps I guess they figured out they have it much better here then in their beloved native Countries. I wonder why?
Monticup & Leila,
Thank you both.
We have to face these issue of health…ALL of us, these are health issues without borders, money etc……the REAL WORLD.
I have not been impressed with DHS from day one!
(If they can’t secure our borders,which after 9/11 is why I thought they were created- can be wrong, someone correct me please Why would I?)
monticup said on 17 Oct 2007 at 9:13 pm:
redawn: The Washington Times has the story of the man with treatment-resistant TB.
# Leila said on 17 Oct 2007 at 9:37 pm:
Very scary stuff. DHS really messed up as well.
COM, they find some Americans, and most of those Americans leave. And this is in an area with considerably worse employment prospects than where we are. As the landscaper Fed Up noted in another thread, there are certain businesses that have this as a chronic problem even when paying good wages. I fully agree with him regarding a guest worker program with plenty of safeguards.
In response to the “we will collapse without Wendy’s” crowd.
__________________________________________________
Entitlement is a problem, for us all, on both sides of this issue.
My toilets (multiple toilets alone, is a luxury) aren’t always sparkling, but they get cleaned.
I hated working in the garden as a kid, I “didn’t like vegetables” but the rest of my family did and I was made to work anyway. I know how to do it though. Yes, we canned.
I have general carpentry, masonry, plumbing and electrical skills, thanks to my Dad and the fine men I grew up around.
I can hunt, fish and do a liitle trapping. I also can field dress, passably butcher and prepare said catches on an improvised flame.
I have capable woodsman and survival skills. Enough to save me or get me in more trouble.
I’ve spent two out of the last four weekends doing auto repair, on my back, under the car and truck. I’d like to thank my Grandfather and Uncle for that.
I have a great job and make good money. It means not so much to me, if/when the chips are down. I will survive and I hope all else will too. I recommend a great library that probably doesn’t rank on the NY Times bestseller list.
I love my X-Box 360 but could live without it. I’ve never owned an Apple product (and proud of that). This great experiment has provided me and my family with many rewards. Still, I’ve never lost sight of the fact that things may not be so easy and fun someday.
We may have to rewind a bit and recenter our values but, we this Country, will make it with the help of one another.
We will be posting video clips from Citizens’ Time starting tonight and through tomorrow. It will be a series with at least one sentence from each person who spoke. We will also post the Board’s discussion and vote. We invite you to post comments on the videos and/or channel page. Thank you. youtube.com/9500Liberty
“As much I don’t want to inject race and culture into this, it is very much about race, assimilation, culture. A lot of people I see fear their area changing from where people looked like them and shared very much the same ideologies and ideas, to one where people are different from them.”
Anthony, you’re right about only one thing…you do not live here. I, however, have lived in Prince William County for 46 years and there has been MANY times during those years when large numbers of immigrants, legal AND illegal, have come into our county and made it their home. I have NEVER, however, in all those years seen the literal invasion of illegal aliens (how do I know, “illegal?”…I ask them) which we have experienced, particularly in the last 2-3 years, during this influx with so little regard for the community that they have invaded.
Unlike those who preceded them, they have come here with the attitude that this country is obligated to care for them regardless of the law or their status. The law is also apparently irrelevant to them because, unlike their predecessors, they feel no obligation to live under any rules other than their own. They take the best that this country has to offer and give nothing in return…and arrogantly consider that to be their right. In all those 46 years I have never seen, or even heard of, so many violent gangs, child abductions, rapes, murders, home invasions…the list goes on and on…as we have had in our county and cities in the past few years. Once upon a time even ONE such event was very big news around here. Now they are so routine that the local media barely takes notice. We are a citizenry under siege, many afraid to venture from their homes at night. If you can call this merely a clash of cultures, then you are a most deluded individual indeed.
This is NOT a racial issue because ALL races are being impacted by this…whites, blacks, and our peaceful immigrant neighbors who had come here previously, and those who are coming here legally to make a new life for themselves as their predecessors did. We have large numbers of Asians, Middle Easterners, and, yes, other Hispanic groups who came here and were welcomed into our communities, who did respect our laws and lived in harmony with their neighbors…and willingly earned their place in the community, earning the American dream in the process. The big difference right now is that the people with whom we are concerned are not earning it…they are attempting to steal it, often without regard to their own people much less the rest of us. You better pray that they don’t head in your direction when either they are finished with us, or we are finished with them. It’s easy to judge if you are not living it.
Reading all of the back and forth makes me realize that neither side really is looking at what happened. These people certainly were brought here to work, but as almost indentured servants. Those of you who support them staying here are in effect supporting human trafficking(sp?). This concerns me a lot. The problem is that if our Illegals are legalized, then the companies will then be looking for some more illegals to be exploited and nothing changes. I am glad that the resolution passed, but it is important to go after the companies that hire these people. Do we need workers? I guess we do. Maybe their embassies in their native countries should be contacted for workers to come here. That way they are legal and recognized. I have been told that we only allow a very small number of Mexicans legally in this country. That too could change. However, having a fit that the rule of law has been upheld is to forget why we have it. It is to protect human life. Their human life and ours. Yes they need to go back to where they came from and our government needs to work out a plan that they could come back with papers to work. Maybe we will still limit how many come as potential citizens, but the others can come on a temporary work visa and not fear the law. It is also important that we make English the official language. If you don’t learn it, you are limited in what you can do and how high you can climb. I worry about these people and how much they are being used albeit willingly. There is a law against voluntary indentured servitude. If you want the illegals to stay here, then that is what you support. I think being willing to allow people to do this is a sign of true bigotry, they are our beasts of burden and how can we possible survive without them. Will our costs go up because of this? Yes and no, but I for one want all people to have the opportunity to rise. I am a native New Yorker and before I came here I had a very wrong impression of what the south was like. I was surprised to see how integrated the neighborhoods were. I come from New York City where their is a German area, Italian, Black, Spanish Harlem etc. They have their ethnic gangs which fight each other. I came to realize that racism is very much a part of the North, even if they don’t recognize it. I am glad I got to move here and learn what real integration is all about.
“monticup said on 17 Oct 2007 at 7:50 pm:
Speaking about commuting–did you hear about the Mexican man who has treatment-resistant tuberculosis who has been back and forth over the border 76 times?! Think of being stuck on a plane with someone that sick. How many people has he infectected
redawn said on 17 Oct 2007 at 7:58 pm:
No, Where did you find this story? I have been more concerned today with the Staph infections that are being reported and a death of a 17yr old Bedford Co. teenager in VA and talk of it to cause more death than Aids. A super bug, and NO I am not blaming illegals…
monticup said on 17 Oct 2007 at 9:13 pm:
redawn: The Washington Times has the story of the man with treatment-resistant TB.
Leila said on 17 Oct 2007 at 9:37 pm:
Very scary stuff. DHS really messed up as well.
http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071017/NATION/110170103/1001
Monticup & Leila,
Thank you both.
We have to face these issue of health…ALL of us, these are health issues without borders, money etc……the REAL WORLD.
I have not been impressed with DHS from day one!
(If they can’t secure our borders,which after 9/11 is why I thought they were created- can be wrong, someone correct me please Why would I?)”
ALL:
Okay, with all of that being said, I just check my email….THANK YOU DOLPH……
check this out:
A case has been reported in our area.
http://www.manassasjm.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=MJM/MGArticle/WPN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1173353156068&path=
TELL ME WHY IT TOOK 2 WEEKS FOR THIS TO BE REPORTED AND WE JUST LEARNED OF A STUDENT IN BEDFORD COUNTY THAT HAD DIED .
THIS HAS MADE NATIONAL NEWS AS A SUPER BUG……WITH MORE PEOPLE EXPECTED TO DIE FROM THAN AIDS………..
“I can confirm that there was a Prince William County high school student, within the last two weeks, that had MRSA,” said Lucy Caldwell, Northern Virginia regional spokeswoman for the Virginia Department of Health.
“We were notified and assisted the [Prince William County] school in making sure they were following the proper protocols,” she said.
Due to privacy concerns, Caldwell said she could not release the name of the school, nor any information about the student.
The school was not closed for cleaning nor was an informational letter sent to parents, Caldwell said.
Repeated phone calls to Prince William County Schools Director of Community Services Ken Blackstone on Tuesday afternoon were not returned.
“Each time a case is reported to the health department, health officials work with the school to assess the level of risk for each situation,” Caldwell said. “Ultimately, the school will make the decision whether or not to send home a letter.”
OH YEAH……
HOMELAND SECURITY START WITH YOU!
I just got done watching the local late night news and in Maryland they had a case and the schools were shut down for cleaning, letters were sent out to parents.
NO mention of the unidentified high school in PWC…. no letters sent home and shut down for PROPER cleaning.
My high school students will be staying home until I get answers.
I find it interesting that I can travel to other parts of this state(further south) and to other eastern states and not see 1 hispanic worker in a fast food restaurant. Why is that hispanics always want to claim that they are the only ones doing these type of jobs, when I have personally viewed non-hispanics doing these type of jobs in other parts of the country. I believe that this statement is only somewhat valid in certain areas of the country. I think that you see this situation in areas where there are alot of higher paying jobs being offered and therefore this in turn leads to fewer adults or high school students who feel the need to accept a minimum wage job. I do believe that our area relies somewhat on hispanic employees because we do have a relatively high # of job opportunities, but as some have said in prior comments/threads, maybe it’s time that we start doing more of our own cleaning, gardening etc. Should you need to hire someone for these services, you may end up having to pay a little more, but in doing so you will be helping put $ back into a taxpayers hands and not into the wallets of those that predominently send $ back to their country, and do not contribute their fair share of the tax burden to use services that others pay taxes to use.
I am also starting to wonder how many non bilingual candidates are being shut out of certain other types of positions. I say this because I have heard that some nursing schools will only accept nurses that have taken spanish courses. I have also seen advertisements for HR positions stating bilingual applicants preferred. Why is it that we need to learn another language to obtain a new position. How do the other immigrants who speak a language other than Spanish feel about this special treament that Spanish speaking immigrants receive because of their sheer numbers. I doubt that there are many schools or govt. related positions that offer an Italian or German speaking translator. We all need to push for the English language to be deemed our national language. I have nothing against learning another language, but I don’t believe that our children or anyone who speaks English as their primary language for that matter should be shut out of job opportunities just because they are not bilingual. Of course this statement does not apply to certain jobs such as foreign language teachers or translators etc.. I’m referring to jobs that in the past would not have had this requirement and the only reason they do today is because we have been invaded by Spanish speaking immigrants. So, it may not always be that hispanics are the only candidates willing to apply for certain jobs that Americans don’t want to do, it may be in some cases that non-Spanish speaking candidates are being turned away.
AWC, AMEN.
From Northerner at 3:22 pm:
“Immigration laws are not local domain. They are federal. Period. This is a settled issue.”
The issue is settled? Settled by whom? By the actions of the city of Dallas? Or that Spitzer guy up in NY who thinks issuing drivers licences to illegals is AOK? Or any and every other local jurisdiction that has chosen to provide sanctuary and service to illegal aliens? They must not have recieve that ” Immigration laws are not local domain. They are federal.” memo.
No, they are not so much in agreement with federal laws pertaining to immigration as following the current federal government policy… which is to flout its own laws. It ’s the old ” if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em ” tact.
As long as they do not contradict federal laws - any city, county or state has the right to enact and enforce any laws they desire.
Federal laws cover a wide range of subjects and crimes … but that does not cancel the rights of any given state from having its own laws.
Just becouse bank robbery, counterfeiting and the production of child pornography are federal crimes, nothing prevents any state from enacting its own laws against said crimes.
Many crimes are prosecutable in both state and federal courts … for the simple reason that STATE laws are in agreement with FEDERAL laws.
Here’s a thought: Consider everytime a person exceeds a posted speed limit and gets away with it …then they are breaking the law and committing an illegal act. Remember, the thing that everyone is concerned with is being honest and legal. Now how many times have each of you driven atleast 10 miles over the legal speed limit and broken the law? As many times as you get into your car, because it is the flow of traffic and everyone else does the same thing, right? … Well by your own definition, then each of you should be rounded up and deported somewhere.
Anytime anyone talks about deporting people for the sin of needing work, better dig deep into their own souls and realize that only “through the grace of God go I”…
Come on, Disgusted Veteran….you’re being ridiculous here.
Yes, I have driven 10 MPH over the speed limit, and most of us have. In most cases, however, it’s simply because I wasn’t paying enough attention, as opposed to “intentionally and knowingly violating the law.” Nevertheless, that is, I admit, “…breaking the law and committing an illegal act.” Having done that, I am subject to punishment IAW the law. In the case of speeding, that is typically a fine and in the most severe cases, restriction of driving privileges. However, not every illegal act does, nor should it carry the same penalty, i.e., deportation, as you suggest.
Punishment should fit the crime, and for those who have entered this country illegally, they should be deported. Actually, come to think of it, returning a person to their legal homeland hardly constitutes punishment.
Disgusted Veteran, US citizens being deported for speeding? That sounds like cruel and unusual punishment. On the other hand, if I’m speeding and don’t have a driver’s license and am illegal, I run the valid risk of being deported.
Disgusted,
An illegal is in a consistant state of breaking the law, there is never a time when they are not breaking the law. If one is caught speeding, they pay the fine and are not given a free speed card that allows them to speed from that point on.
This staph infection is in the Manassas City schools also. No offical notice has been given to the students or parents.
Digusted Veteran, “mom” had already equated illegal entry with speeding a while back.
But if you want to equate speeding with illegal entry, then fine. How about this:
Speeding between 1 and 10MPH over the limit is rarely punished. Most people recognize that such small amounts of speeding are inadvertent, unintentional, unlikely to cause harm, and also due to potential speedometer inaccuracy.
This would be akin to someone who illegally enters for an hour with the intention of going back later, but doesn’t get the proper papework before doing.
Speeding over 20MPH is punished severely. It is reckless driving. Moreover, speeding in excess of 90MPH is often punished with jail time. Most people recognize that such excessive speeding is willful and intentional, and likely to result in severe harm.
This would be akin to someone who illegal enters and ends up in Manassas, almost 3000 miles away, gets a job, and stays for years (perhaps paying a coyote $2000 for smuggling them across the border).
In both cases there is a willful and intentional disregard for the law. The latter two cases are examples of an egregious disregard for the law.
Incidentally, Disgusted Veteran, you never did answer my question about what you think about the “republicans” in the MP city council. I recall that you live in this city and I was wondering what you thought about them.
That is, assuming you aren’t who I think you are and actually on the MP city council..hmmmm?
me-n-u said on 18 Oct 2007 at 9:47 am:
“This staph infection is in the Manassas City schools also. No offical notice has been given to the students or parents”
I just called SJHS and claim they have hear nothing. I said I am looking at the MJM and it says a HS in PWC…. she keep trying to assure me that if it were in PWC we all would have know about it. I asked if they are going to talk to the students and send out letters to discuss PREVENTION. She said their is a letter going out today. I will be calling the School Board in a little bit and see if I can find out more.
An oz. of prevention goes a long way.
What would possess someone to make such an absurd point? Disgusted Veteran needs to think before he writes.
Redawn, I know of the staph infection being a problem, don’t know how big, in a high school in Front Royal, as well. I don’t know if anyone in charge is aware of it there.
“”Mando, you can’t think of any way you have benefited from illegal labor? So you produce all your own vegetables, fruit, meat. How big is the farm?”"
How much illegal labor contributes to U.S. farming is debateable and farming is one the most subsidized businesses in the US. My feelings on the U.S. farming industry aren’t really relevent to the debate on illegal aliens though but I will tell you $10 onions just ain’t going to happen… black market labor or not. There are also other options to illegally hiring border jumpers to work on farms. Work visas come to mind.
I don’t buy into the whole “The U.S. economy is dependent on black market labor” argument.
Legal or not, there will always be a demand for illegal labor. Give all the illegals amnesty then we’ll be paying for their unemployment because you just took away their inherent use to unscrupulous employers.
Secure the borders then we can talk amnesty.
I called student services and they will be calling me back. The lady I spoke with said they were in a meeting discussing it at the time of my call.
Here is what Fox 5 is reporting
http://www.myfoxdc.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=4672807&version=5&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.5.1
*****I also remember 9/11 very vividly to this very day. We live just few miles from Washington, DC,our Nations Capital and that elevates the danger of who is here in our country. The reason for us in Prince William County to take action.*****
Perhaps somebody could help me out with this, because to be honest, I’m dumbfounded by this logic. Our country was attacked by persons from the middle east, and the way to solve the problem is to remove the people picking our fruit? By this logic, we could also blame all left-handed department-store clerks and all near-sighted dentists, as they had just as much to do with the attack as illegal Latinos. From here, we’re not far from the kind of thinking that inspires rain-dances and witchcraft.
How can I make this clear to you? I feel like I’m preparing a lesson for 5th graders. How about this? Draw a Venn Diagram with me. The diagram will be charted ‘Immigrants’. Draw one big circle that says ‘illegal immigrants’. draw another circle partially overlapping the 1st circle, in it, write ‘middle east’ (representing immigrants, obviously, from the middle east). Now, the portion of the 2nd circle that falls within the ‘illegal’ circle represent all of the illegal immigrants from the middle east; those outside, represent those who came here legally. Now, draw a similar circle, also partially overlapping the ‘illegal’ circle, but also partially overlapping the Middle East circle (which we’ll say represents all Latinos who have middle-east backgrounds/affiliations). Again, those which fall outside the ‘illegal’ circle represent the legal immigrants, those inside the circle represent those who come here illegally from Latin America.
Now, I want you to shade the portion of the circle from which all 21 9/11 terrorists came. Do you notice anything about the shading? Not only does none of the shading occur in the illegal Latino section, but it also doesn’t occur in the ‘legal Latino’ section. And, not only does it not fall in the Latino circle at all, it doesn’t even fall within the ‘illegal’ section of the Middle East circle. Talk about pursuing the wrong strategy. This logic applied to home repair strategy would include digging holes in the back yard to stop a leaky roof.
Maybe we should amend the diagram to somehow include the guy who drove in from Canada to blow up bridges in Seattle. It’s further evidence that such thinking isn’t just off-base, but embarrassingly so.
What a spurious way of solving the problem. You people are a hoot!
At the end of it all, I get the feeling that terrorism justifications mask something deeper and uglier. I’d suspect that it’s being used to clean up the ‘undesirables’ in the community. That’s the very Putin and China were so quick to jump on the 9/11 bandwagon. It’s an easy umbrella for fixing domestic problems.
I was just looking at the article in MJM..
Why wasn’t a notice sent out on this staph infection from the PWCPS? Why didn’t they send out a public notice in the mail?
Why didn’t they place a statement in the local newspapers?
Why didn’t they place a on notice on Channel 18? Why hasn’t someone from the PWCPS or the School Board not answered the call from the MJM? Well, for once it looks like the MJM is the good guy for once, because at least they shed some light on the issue.
Other elected officials read bvbl, and I’m certain a few on the School Board do too. It is election season afterall, and the School Board members are running opposed. So hopefully someone from the schools will speak out soon. I hope the immunization records aren’t handled so light heartedly.
This a public health and safety issue.
Contact the PWC Schools & School Board Members at..
http://www.pwcs.edu/
http://www.pwcs.edu/admin/schboard/
We are concerned parents!
Adendum:
Sorry, that last sentence should have “fixing” in quotes… as I meant it to imply cracking down where there was no previous justification.
This logic applied to domestic policy would include granting amnesty to fix a porous border.
MP:
I’d love to hear your solution.
Northerner wrote “Perhaps somebody could help me out with this, because to be honest, I’m dumbfounded by this logic. Our country was attacked by persons from the middle east, and the way to solve the problem is to remove the people picking our fruit?”
Glad to. Though from the Middle East, they were here illegally. Since this resolution has NOTHING to do with Hispanics but EVERYTHING to do with illegal aliens, I think even a Yankee can see that by making it tougher to live in our county as an illegal, an added benefit would be protection of our homeland, something that failed to happen prior to 9-11.
My only question is, why did it take “a marathon session” on something so basic as enforcing our laws and dealing with illegals. This REALLY IS a no-brainer, people.
And additionally:
Do you really not see the link between 9/11 and illegal latino immigration as fallacious? You changed the subject without contesting my claim.
Northerner:
I’d like to know why you think amnesty is a solution, particularly in light of the fact that it was already tried in 1986.
The cause is porous borders. The effects are many.
Drug smuggling, weapons smuggling, people smuggling, all are effects of a porous border.
From the testimony of Ms. Janice Kephart,Senior Consultant, The Investigative Project
As given to the Senate:
Once the terrorist decides or is instructed to come to the United States, he must determine how to enter. For the 9/11 hijackers, the instruction was to get a legal visa. Since Saudis were treated as a “de facto” visa waiver country, al Qaeda leadership soon figured out that Saudis could easily gain access to the United States. On 9/11, all but one of the unskilled “muscle” hijackers was Saudi.
Getting the visa. Terrorists prefer to enter the United States under the guise of legitimacy, most often by obtaining US visas. Every potential 9/11 hijacker sought a visa to come to the United States. Of the 20 granted (included is Mohamed Al-Kahtani), nineteen were for B1/B2 (business/tourist) visas and one was for a student visa (when the tourist visa application failed).
Where is the illegal issue here?
4 of the hijackers had expired visas, so I guess that probably makes them illegal, maybe?
Incidentalyl, one of the things that changed after 9/11 in Virginia that the DMV now makes the driver’s license expire when the visa does, for someone here on a visa who applies for a driver’s license.
Let’s not forget Lee Boyd Malvo, was here ILLEGALLY too!! He & Mohammed killed Dean Myers, not two miles from WestGate/Sudley. Are kids were on lock down for almost a month because of these two SNIPERS. They killed all over the metro area. Does anyone remember that?
Where is that connected to the ‘taco trucks’ mentioned earlier? Things here are all over the map, without rhyme or reason.
Yes, if you are here on an expired Visa, that constitutes you (not you, “Northerner” but the person in the example I am giving) as an “Illegal Alien” in the eyes of the U.S. Government. For example, the VA State Police and DHS personnel I know say that they are less concerned with the illegals who sneak into this country than they are with those people here on expired Visas. Because THOSE people tend to stay under the radar (you WON’T see them out at protests screaming in their native language) they are less likely to both get caught and be noticed by investigative agencies.
To understand the “taco trucks” or “roach coaches” as we called them in the military, you will need to read previous threads to FULLY appreciate the issue at hand. These “taco trucks” tend to be run by people who do not have a license and the food is not properly handled nor is it truly safe to eat. Because of this (not the only reason, though), diseases once thought to be eradicated in our area are now making a comeback.
Northerner, at least four of the hijackers violated the terms of their visas and were technically illegal aliens at the time of the attack. For a detailed discussion of this see http://irli.org/ForceMultiplrKobach.pdf
Northerner,
Please allow me to brush the straw out of my hair and put on a pair of shoes before I answer you. I will also brush my three teeth in order to become presentable.
Ah, grooming complete. It is imperative that we know who is in our country. We are at war. We have been attacked. Unsecured borders, whether land or sea, are dangerous to the American people.
Northerner, your premise and your logic is faulty. You probably don’t really want to be “helped out”. For those who understand, no explanation is necessary, for those who don’t understand, no explanation will suffice.
Mr. Light,
I read the thread in its entirety. I admire your faith in a government license for tacos. Such licenses did not help the patrons of Jack in the Box and Taco Bell… which have licenses to boot, but still manage to spark nation-wide health-scares. Go firgure.
Second of all, how is crippling your county’s service industry going to save us from terrorists? There are so many logical conclusions leapt to, I can’t keep them all straight.
You say 4 hijakers had expired visas. That leaves 17 who were 100% legal, and the 4 were legal until just before they took action. How would present (soon to be unconstitutional) PWC immigration laws affect that, were it happening today?
I think we all know it would have no impact. Those who arrive to do us harm have strategies to circumvent the law, lie low, work white-collar jobs or blend in as students. They know our laws, and they work hard to get around them. Contrast that with a father from Mexico who wants his kids to speak 2 languages and get a good education, work in a vibrant economy, and pursue life, liberty, happiness, property, whatever. I’m dumbfounded that they are all lumped together. This isn’t even apples and oranges. It’s like comparing apples to razor blades, and not seeing a difference.
*****Northerner, your premise and your logic is faulty. You probably don’t really want to be “helped out”. For those who understand, no explanation is necessary, for those who don’t understand, no explanation will suffice.*****
Classic Mobocracy
Greg
Thanks for new thread on MJM article.
Lafayette - N&W !! They’re coming out of the woodwork again!
*****Ah, grooming complete. It is imperative that we know who is in our country. We are at war. We have been attacked. Unsecured borders, whether land or sea, are dangerous to the American people.*****
Thanks for grooming.
I’m not in the least opposed to a regulated border, and agree with you completely. I think illegal immigrants need to come out from hiding, and participate in the governmental system like the rest of us, paying taxes, voting, etc. There needs to be a realistic and pragmatic solution to this problem, because we lack the resources and the will to ’round ‘em all up’, tho judging by the fervor on this board, I think we’d have some volunteer vigilantes amongst us.
Repatriation has never worked on any scale. Why are we trying it again? it doesn’t make sense.
Well, I like I said an earlier, I think a lot of this centers around the change in the local culture out there and the people who now inhabit the Northern Virginia area.
The downgrade of the area has somewhat to do with newcomers, but what about all the people who have moved into the area, etc.?
Just curious, why does is seem to be a big problem in Manassas, Prince William County, Loudoun, while in other areas of the state it’s not a big deal?
Honestly, why is more energy not spent going after the businesses and as well allow more immigrants into the country (albeit, ones who could help the economy).
I think what President Bush proposed was a workable idea; however, it seems both sides do not want to compromise.
It seems like there’s a lot of push-me, pull-me attitudes from both sides.
Let the hard workers go home and work hard to fix their broken government, instead of adopting the entitlement mindset in ours.
“Repatriation has never worked on any scale. Why are we trying it again? it doesn’t make sense.”
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58189
“The spokeswoman for President Bush says illegal aliens from Mexico do not want to live permanently in the United States; they just want better jobs.
Dana Perino was responding to a question from Les Kinsolving, WND’s correspondent at the White House, who asked: “In Mexico President Calderon’s state of the nation address, he said, ‘Mexico does not end at its borders. Where there is a Mexican, there is Mexico.’ And my question: What is the president’s reaction to this statement, and what [does it mean] to New Mexico and other U.S. states?” ”
So the question is, if illegal aliens from Mexico do not want to permanently live in the USA but just want better jobs, why give them an amnesty?
Since when is Dana Perino the fount of truth and knowedge? I’m sorry, but that woman makes Tony Snow look _good_ at his job. No small feat.
Why not give them jobs and work visas and opportunities to grow into citizens (those who wish to stay)? Great questions. Such a proposals are defeated in embryonic stages. Often by nativists. Can anybody tell us why? and if so could you tell us what should happen to these +/- 12 million?
Those 12 million have already demonstrated a propensity to pack up their bags and leave when the going gets tough. It’s why there here and not in Mexico, El Salvador, Peru, etc.
Since they’re so willing to pack their bags and leave when life gets too uncomfortable for them, I suppose it’s simply a matter of, metaphorically speaking, putting away the sugar so the ants go elsewhere.
*****Those 12 million have already demonstrated a propensity to pack up their bags and leave when the going gets tough. It’s why there here and not in Mexico, El Salvador, Peru, etc.*****
So did my ancestors, and yours too, probably (I’m guessing, so correct me if I’m wrong). My great grandparents weren’t making anying as coal miners in Scandanavia, so they packed it in, hoping for a better life here. And they found one. But where our ancestors were heros and pioneers, these people are whimps and quitters. You’ll have to clarify the distinction for me, just so I can be sure why these people are absconders and cowards while my relatives were American icons.
*****Since they’re so willing to pack their bags and leave when life gets too uncomfortable for them, I suppose it’s simply a matter of, metaphorically speaking, putting away the sugar so the ants go elsewhere.*****
I recently saw a bit of a 1935 German propaganda film which talked about the Jewish infestation as packs of rats, and the film showed huge numbers of rats running the sewers in herds. Nothing like a good old-fashioned insect or rodent metaphor to completely dehumanise an entire race.
Before someone chimes in, “The difference is they were legal,” I would just note that previous waves of legal immigrants, Ellis Island and before, were accused of all the same sort of things this wave of illegal immigrants is being accused of.
They were told they didn’t learn English fast enough, didn’t assimilate, overcrowded their housing, stole native-born Americans’ jobs and depressed wages, had dual loyalties, were the wrong religion (Catholic, Jewish), were a threat to American women, had high rates of criminality, etc. etc.
One could take passages from this blog at times and fit them neatly into nativist writings from the mid-to-late 19th or early 20th century with little adjustment.
Very interesting article from the New York Times on 10/16:
Fleeing to U.S., Cubans’ First Stop Is Often Mexico
http://www.theledger.com/article/20071016/ZNYT03/710160469/-1/ZNYT
“Nothing like a good old-fashioned insect or rodent metaphor to completely dehumanise an entire race.”
Come off it, please.
The person who made the ants metaphor is someone believes that illegal aliens haven’t done anything wrong, it is the USA that lured them here with social welfare services (the “sugar”). That person’s feelings about illegal aliens are probably much more in line with yours than mine. For example, that person supports the Bush amnesty proposal and furthermore denies that it’s an amnesty, etc.
“Before someone chimes in, “The difference is they were legal,” ”
One difference is that the “Great Society” didn’t exist back then.
Another difference is the numbers of immigrants (legal and illegal) arriving per year now vs. then. It is my understanding that historically the numbers were around 100,000 a year, and this when the country was mostly undeveloped.
Now the numbers are around 1 to 1 1/2 million per year, and the country is a lot more developed now. So we’re adding the population of about 2 to 3 large cities to our country each year just in terms of immigration alone.
Will many of you be alive to see this country when it’s population reaches 500 to 600 million? I wonder what the impact of such population growth will have on the environment, for one thing.
MPR, Are you saying the primary objection to illegal immigrants today is their benefiting from the drastically rolled back programs initiated during the Johnson Administration’s “Great Society”?
Or are you saying immigrants of the Ellis Island generation and before did not benefit from social welfare programs. If it is that, you are incorrect.
If the notion is that the legal generations were completely self-sufficient, then it becomes only that much more appalling how they were denigrated in exactly the same way as illegal immigrants today.
MPR, you think only 100,000 immigrants a year were coming during the Ellis Island era!? Wow. That’s pretty astonishing. There were at least 22 million entering through that single port in the peak years of 1892-1924. That is not to mention waves previous or after.
Where on earth did you get a number of 100,000 per year for historical immigration to the US?
Also, while much of the country was less developed, much immigration of that period went into cities that were not at all underdeveloped, and immigrants were denigrated for how they lived in places like New York’s Lower East Side.
“Or are you saying immigrants of the Ellis Island generation and before did not benefit from social welfare programs. If it is that, you are incorrect.”
The social welfare programs available to the Ellis Island generation were very limited compared to what is available today.
In fact, I would suggest that if we rolled the progress made in this country back about 100 years, many of the illegal aliens would not be coming here.
Anabel-Can you please post ‘Lady Liberty’s’ talk? She’s the one with the Statue of Liberty costume? She tried to speak around 5:30, but Corey asked to go the the end f the line and she didn’t actually get to speak till about midnight? I could only listen to the live feed over the internet. Also, there was some guy around 11:30 that asked to have his english translated into spanish for the crowd outside. I thought that was one of the best lines of the night.
Here’s an ant and spider analogy!
THE ANT AND THE GRASSHOPPER - CLASSIC VERSION:
The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he’s a fool, and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.
THE ANT AND THE GRASSHOPPER - MODERN VERSION:
The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he’s a fool, and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.
Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving.
CBS, NBC and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food.
America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?
Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper and everybody cries when they sing “It’s Not Easy Being Green.”
Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant’s house, where the news stations film the group singing “We shall overcome”. Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper’s sake.
Al Gore exclaims in an interview with Peter Jennings that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and calls for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his “fair share”.
Finally, the EEOC drafts the “Economic Equity and Anti-Grasshopper Act”, retroactive to the beginning of the summer.
The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government. Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a discrimination suit against the ant, and the case is
tried before a panel of federal judges that Bill appointed from a list of single-parent welfare recipients.
The ant loses the case.
The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant’s food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant’s old house, crumbles around him because he doesn’t maintain it.
The ant has disappeared in the snow.
The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.
MP Resident:
As Leila points out, calls against the Irish and Eastern Europeans were similar to what we’re hearing now. Truth of the matter is: people will stop coming when there is incentive to stop coming. That incentive that brings people here is a robust economy. You want to send people away, it will literally require you shooting yourself in the foot. (but so many here seem so willing to do that).
Birth rates are at 2.05 (just at replacement levels) in America. That means any growth that takes place (necessary for healthy economic growth) occurs on the backs of immigrants.
*****I wonder what the impact of such population growth will have on the environment, for one thing.*****
Now it’s an environmental issue? I didn’t think conservatives believed in that. Don’t worry about the population reaching 500m. Whether it’s the polar ice caps melting or Jesus riding through the clouds with Ganish and Buddah and Thor (aren’t those the four horsemen of the apocalypse?)
Future generations will just have to be smarter, use less energy, use smarter products, or they won’t grow. It’s a simple economic problem, nothing a temporary county policy is going to decide
Leila said on 18 Oct 2007 at 1:52 pm:
They were told they didn’t learn English fast enough…
———————————————————————
There were MANY hispanic people that spoke at Citizen’s time that said they have been in this country for 25, 28, 32 years and still needed an interpreter. Couldn’t speak a bit of English.
So, how long should it take to learn the language of your newly adopted country that you love so much?
MPR, I doubt that very much. I think illegal immigrants would be here whether or not they received anything from any social program because they find work. After all, there was supposedly a huge problem with illegal immigrant workers during the Eisenhower administration, so much so they launched that fairly unsuccessful operation with the racist name.
*****Finally, the EEOC drafts the “Economic Equity and Anti-Grasshopper Act”, retroactive to the beginning of the summer.*****
Ex Post Facto laws violate the US Constitution. Such a law could never be passed.
Just FYI
I wasn’t just looking at the Ellis Island era.
Between 1779-1819 it was about 6,500 per year.
Between 1820-1879 it was about 160,000 per year.
Between 1880-1924 it was about 580,000 per year.
Between 1925-1965 it was about 180,000 per year.
The average over the entire 186 year period is about 228,000 per year, or about 42,420,000 total.
Between 1965-1989 it was about 500,000 per year. (24 years)
Between 1990-2005 it was about 1,000,000 per year. (15 years).
It would appear to me, based on these figures, that we are experiencing numbers of immigration higher than anything in the past.
Why?
Bob Sentz on 18 Oct 2007 at 2:38 pm:
GREAT! Ribitttttt! Need more frogs to get rid of those nasty grasshoppers.
Bob Sentz, first, as has been pointed out before, the fact they asked for an interpreter doesn’t necessarily mean they “couldn’t speak a bit of English.” It could also mean they wanted to be free to express themselves as best they could, and that would be in their native language. That even happens with people highly educated in English as a second language. If it is important how they express themselves in public (say in a political or artistic setting) they use interpreters.
Second, there were plenty of adults from previous generations of immigrants who lived here many years without speaking English very well, some of the elderly hardly at all. They relied on their children’s help, they muddled through with what they knew, they used their own language in their own enclaves a lot. Do you honestly think if you walked down Delancey St. in New York in 1906 you would be hearing mostly English?
Every day here in Arlington I see parents speaking to children in Spanish, Mongolian, etc. etc., and being answered back in English, the language I also see the kids using among themselves.
Third, immigrants here, legal and illegal, flock to the English classes made available to them. If we as Americans made the kind of self-conscious push made in previous generations, it would make a difference.
“Now it’s an environmental issue? I didn’t think conservatives believed in that.”
Conservatives have just as much reason to be concerned about the environment as liberals.
“Future generations will just have to be smarter, use less energy, use smarter products, or ***they won’t grow.***”
Would that be the result of practicing the idea that if you can’t feed ‘em, don’t breed ‘em? Or will they breed ‘em and not be able to feed ‘em and watch the ugly effects of starvation?
“I think illegal immigrants would be here whether or not they received anything from any social program because they find work.”
Yes, but without those social programs they might not be able to work so cheaply. I guess in a way those social programs being used to support illegal aliens working under the table are really, in a way, a form of “corporate welfare”, aren’t they?
“so much so they launched that fairly unsuccessful operation with the racist name.”
I suppose it depends on what your definition of “unsuccessful” is?
“750 agents targeted agricultural areas with a goal of 1000 apprehensions a day. By the end of July, over 50,000 aliens were caught in the two states. Around 488,000 people fled the country for fear of being apprehended. By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and the INS estimates that 500,000-700,000 people had left Texas voluntarily.”
Northerner on 18 Oct 2007 at 1:08 pm:
DEPORT THEM!
No need. They’ll leave voluntarily, as that operation with the “racist name” showed.
Leila said 18 Oct 2007 at 2:55 pm:
It would have been more to their benefit to show some repeat some knowledge of the English language after 20 years or more in this country. They just made the point to refuse to speak english, por la raza.
****That incentive that brings people here is a robust economy.****
Kinda. The incentive is a job. Any job. And I feel confident in saying that the only jobs illegal aliens can compete for are illegal jobs… ie. those paying under the table, tax free, benefits free.
Making them all tax paying citizens doesn’t change the current demand for black market labor. So, with amnesty, not only will you have a huge population of those dependent on the govt., but you then open up the flood gates for more illegals to fill in the vacuum.
Definitely not a “simple” economic problem.
MP resident, Could you cite where those numbers are from? Mine on Ellis Island peak years were from the Ellis Island site and of course only took into account people entering that one single port, not all the others or the southern or northern border, legally or illegally. Are the numbers you are giving for legal and illegal immigration for all the period, for just legal?
*****Anon: DEPORT THEM!*****
How? How much will it cost? Draw up a budget. Becuase it’ll cost WORLDS more than you’ll ever imagine. I want to see a plan for it.
(Just FYI, if any of the Sean Hannity/Lou Dobbs crowd already had, they’d have it on congress’s docket. It’s an impossibility)
But I’d love to see your attempt
Ever wonder why the Puerto Ricans (American, non-taxpaying citizens) left Puerto Rico in droves in the early 60’s (the majority of them now in the NorthEast? It the same reason the illegals are coming here and hoping for amnesty. After 5 years of being “legal” they can go on the dole and collect “their” entitlements. No?
Mando, a very high percentage of illegal aliens work in steady jobs with fake SS and have taxes withheld from pay checks. As is shown by all the recent crackdowns, there is nothing unusual about having illegal aliens working for name companies like Smithfield, Swift, etc.
Obviously there are plenty in the underground economy of day labor (plenty of Americans there too), but illegal immigrants are hired for steady work as much if not more.
PS: That is precisely why the no-match letter initiative was started.
To expand on the economic problem tied to illegal immagration I can see 2 logical fixes:
1. Extreme measures in clamping down on the black market for labor. Make the punishment for using illegal labor outweigh the benefits derived.
and/or
2. Cutting off the supply of illegal labor.
Amnesty in no way, shape, or form will fix the problem. I would go even further to say that amnesty would be inhumane to illegals because you just stripped away their ability to secure a job.
MPResident, most did not leave during Operation W.
The numbers are from Federal records. The numbers do not say if they include illegal immigration, I suspect not, since there are no Federal records of illegal immigrants….
Lafayette on 18 Oct 2007 at 11:47 am:
Remember too that one was an illegal alien and the other was a muslim. Coincidence?
INS claims that between 500,000 and 700,000 of them did leave during the “operation with a racist name”, with an additional 80,000 actually deported.
***As is shown by all the recent crackdowns, there is nothing unusual about having illegal aliens working for name companies like Smithfield, Swift, etc.***
I would like to see some numbers on this as to a ratio. I still feel confident that most illegals that are drawn here for work fill the need for black market labor.
“I still feel confident that most illegals that are drawn here for work fill the need for black market labor.”
That theory is certainly supported by looking at any area 7-11 in the morning, isn’t it?
Anonymous, are you saying that most of the adults who spoke, and only in Spanish, said they had been here 20 years or more? If you wish to invoke “la raza” feel free but I think it is more likely they don’t speak English well enough to express what they wanted to say. I think it is more important that they said exactly what they meant then struggled with the language. Native-born educated Americans with English as their primary language don’t exactly have a good record when it comes to learning the languages of other countries even when living in them. We are very lucky English is the world’s lingua franca.
MP resident, do you have a source for the federal records? Either the primary source or (possibly) the advocacy group that reproduced them? URL or textual?
MP resident, I ask, because it doesn’t add up, especially not when Ellis Island alone would account for the entire immigration numbers you have given for many years and yet obviously there were many ports of entry.
Here:
http://www.numbersusa.com/PDFs/TraditionalLevelsofUSImmigration.pdf
Or the HTML version here:
http://www.numbersusa.com/PDFs/TraditionalLevelsofUSImmigration.pdf
About 25.5 million from these figures for the years of 1880-1924
Previous URL incorrect. HTML version here:
http://www.numbersusa.com/overpopulation/immtrad.html
@ Leila
Most importantly, how would amnesty help the multitude of those that decided to come here illegally? Other then feel-good politics, what exactly will amnesty accomplish?
These aren’t the days of Ellis Island 100+ years ago.
We tried amnesty in 1989. Didn’t work. It just encouraged more illegals to invade confident that they would be given amnesty as well. Amnesty is a magnet. Just like HeadStart, Food Stamps, Dream Act, etc. Citizens are more informed now, thanks to talk radio and the alternative media. Like this blog, for example.
Monticup et al.,
What do you propose? I’ve asked this question a dozen times, with no concrete answer. And you know what? you’re all losing by not proposing anything, because the border’s where it always was, and people keep coming.
Go ahead talking about how you’re ‘taking the country back’, but you’re going to have to have a plan sooner or later. I haven’t seen any plans so far, and I doubt anybody here has any new. I’d love to be proven wrong, but the status quo suits my side of the line just fine.
How about enforcing the law?
That would be a good start.
MP Resident:
How and with what money? It’s not a start because it’s no where currently. The law could say we are all required to eat lunch on the moon, but if there’s no way for it to happen, who can enforce it?
Mando, Ellis Island wasn’t 100+ years ago, it went to 1954, although open immigration ended in 1924 and the peak years were well past after that point.
But I think you were talking about amnesty with someone else, not me. I don’t recall bringing it up. Was it Northerner?
I would support a very comprehensively designed guest-worker program with a lot of safeguards, including criminal screening and health screening. It would take into account the needs of particular sectors of the economy, the seasonal nature of some labor, etc. It would have to be more efficient and reliable than the current extremely modest guest worker program that exists now, in other words not penalize business people who can’t find American workers but who try to comply with the law. I would also build into it some sort of path to permanent residency and eventual citizenship.
I have found that pro-illegals are always so overwhelmed by the thought of
enforcing the law. It’s not difficult. Just start. We can put a man on the moon and we can deport illegal aliens.
We could place an onerous tax on their remittances home. That’s a twofer–we get revenue to help defray the burden they place on us AND we make it less attractive to be here.
The illegals will self-deport. They are starting in Georgia and Oklahoma and areas where the authorities are cracking down. I predict an exodus from Manassas.
Northerner, why do want to preemptively surrender?
“How and with what money?”
A liberal concerned about how to pay for something? Amazing. But only when it’s something they’re opposed to.
Interesting polling data:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/17/poll.immigration/
Who said I’m a liberal? I’m an economist. Every model I’ve seen is fundamentally unworkable. From the price of chartering hundreds of thousands of buses, bus drivers, gasoline, detectives to track down the illegals, tens, if not hundreds of thousands of detention facilities, court filing costs, money to fend off lawsuits that will come from every corner, storm troopers, not to mention the cost of inserting zeig heil salute to the bottom left corner of every American flag… These things are gonna add up.
But, time will tell, I suppose.
I never said amnesty. I support a path to citizenship, paying back-taxes. A form of that will eventually come about. I see no ‘mass-exodus’, and I find talk of it naively optimistic.
My point, once more, so nobody misses it:
As long as we go without a WORKABLE plan, nothing will be done. It’s that simple. Hey, suits me just fine.
I wonder how one taxes remittances. First, legal immigrants send millions home in remittances as well. Should they be penalized for gifts to their families as well? Second, how would you identify the money to be taxed? Much remittance money is sent through informal channels all over the world and that would only increase if one attempted a crackdown of this sort. These networks are very elaborate and will only get better.
@ Northener
The immediate fix has already been implemented. The implication is clear to illegal aliens. This will cause many to self deport. Those that don’t will continue to live under the radar like they currently do. If they commit a crime and are caught, they will be deported. Simple and effective.
What else would I propose? Securing the border for one. Then fixing economic policy starting with minimum wage laws. Get rid of laws that circumvent the invisible hand of the free market system that cause demand for illegal labor in the first place. This is way outside the scope of what we PWC citizens can accomplish though.
So the fix is in. We’ve ignored this problem so long that the only solution is to either ignore it or pass ANOTHER amnesty.
Or maybe form the North American Union and, since the dollar is dropping like a rock, we’ll need a new currency called the Amero.
I think the only crackdown that would possibly work would be an extremely draconian one on employers, not workers. I don’t think that will ever happen. I think the Bush Admin is very happy the federal judge blocked the no-match scheme. This way, they can say look we tried but that darn commie California judge stood in our way. There will be periodic busts for show, but few officials in this country truly want to witness the economic impact of forcing every single business to fire any illegal employees within 90 days. That isn’t even to mention all the false positives, all the law suits, all the harassment.
A mass deportation is even more unlikely. There is no money for it even to Mexico much less all the other countries contributing illegal immigrants. Imagine the number of ships, planes, etc. required. Mexico has no obligation to allow any passage through their territory for anyone who is not a Mexican national. Plus the proposed fence only covers a small part of the border and is obviously not going to be impermeable. Israel, with a lot more at stake, can’t keep a tiny fence impermeable.
I think Leila & Northerner need to start their own blog.
Slate did a multi-part series on American Lawbreaking. Here is the entry on illegal immigration.
http://www.slate.com/id/2175730/entry/2175742/
From the intro for the series:
“This series explores the black spots in American law: areas in which our laws are routinely and regularly broken and where the law enforcement response is … nothing. These are the areas where, for one reason or another, we’ve decided to tolerate lawbreaking and let a law—duly enacted and still on the books—lay fallow or near dead.”
Leila on 18 Oct 2007 at 4:55 pm:
Simple. Every dollar that is sent out of the country should be taxed. Everything else in the country is taxed i.e. telphone, utilities, satelitte television, cell phones. I believe the figure was something like 26 billion (with a b) was sent last year to Mexico alone. Why would Mexico like to see the end of illegal immigration?
Northerner on 18 Oct 2007 at 4:52 pm:
Why give them citizenship? They are “only here to care for their families.” Give them a legal visa to work in this country and let them go back home and take care of their families. If they work here legally then go home, they can qualify for SS is they paid into it and have enough quarters. At home they can suck up a Carona and watch the sunset in their villa on the beach.
Anonymous, it really would be nice if you would at least add IN RESPONSE TO before you paste someone’s name. It always appears as though you are quoting the person you are actually replying to.
You appear to think money is always “sent out” in some trackable way. I already addressed that. If there was interference in formal mechanisms of transfer, eg. wire transfers, then there would just be an expansion of cash hand carried. There are very elaborate networks for this already of couriers. It doesn’t even have to involve the cash itself. It can be a hawala-like system. They exist all over the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala
Money doesn’t need to travel formally anymore than people do. The remittances to Mexico include money from people legally in the US. Legal immigrants and American citizens send money to families all over the world, formally and informally.
Northerner said on 18 Oct 2007 at 4:52 pm:
Who said I’m a liberal? I’m an economist. Every model I’ve seen is fundamentally unworkable. From the price of chartering hundreds of thousands of buses, bus drivers, gasoline, detectives to track down the illegals, tens, if not hundreds of thousands of detention facilities, court filing costs, money to fend off lawsuits that will come from every corner, storm troopers, not to mention the cost of inserting zeig heil salute to the bottom left corner of every American flag… These things are gonna add up.
======================================
With a comment like: ‘not to mention the cost of inserting zeig heil salute to the bottom left corner of every American flag’ how can you deny your liberalism? Especially, since you’d like the see the zeig heil salute in the ‘left’ corner of the flag!
Northerner is a liberal, all right. He couldn’t help himself. Maybe he prefers the term “progressive”. Same thing.
Mando sounds like a better economist than Northerner.
If Al Gore can place a tax on our phone bills to go towards wiring every school in the nation for computers, we can tax the remittances through Western Union. It really would be very simple. But Vicente Fox and his clone Calderon wouldn’t like it and they’d complain.
Leila, correct me if I’m wrong, but according to the IRS, gifts are considered taxable income.
I would support a bracero program like we had in the 1950’s. The workers came, worked the specific job and returned home. No chain migration, no welfare, no families.
President Eisenhower even had a very effective “Operation Wetback” program to deport illegal aliens. Of course, we could never do that today what with the ACLU and political correctness.
Monticup, monetary gifts may be taxable or not. It depends on who you are giving the gift of money to and how much, etc. See for example:
http://www.eldercareadvocates.com/pages/art17.htm
Just what came up in Google, but it spells it out.
But that is all pretty much irrelevant to what I was saying about the impracticality of taxing remittances. I was pointing out that whether the money is from an illegal immigrant, legal immigrant, or American citizen, there are already existing *untrackable* ways of sending it to family in other countries, sometimes through couriers of the cash itself, sometimes through a promissary system that works very well.
Leila: Then you’re talking about income tax evasion or money laundering. Both are crimes. You’re putting up obstacles here. It would not be difficult.
I guess since some people work under the table we should get rid of the income tax.
(That has been suggested as a reason to go with a VAT style sales tax)…
Monticup, There is no barrier to taking cash out of the country as cash. It doesn’t even have to be declared if it is less than $10,000. Legal immigrants, including American citizens, do this all the time.
They also use hawala-like mechanisms. Both can be used by illegal immigrants. Nobody is going to know if a New York taxi driver from Senegal has started a hawala with his cousins back in the village, a system that doesn’t even involve direct transactions, and is helping all the Senegalese in Brooklyn. If you think that the two sorts of ways of transferring remittances are able to be tracked to be taxed, then tell me how.
PS: Of course much of the money sent in remittances by legal and illegal immigrants has already been taxed. I assumed Mando was suggesting an additional tax on top of how money earned when one gets a paycheck is taxed.
Northerner said on 18 Oct 2007 at 11:06 am:
“Do you really not see the link between 9/11 and illegal latino immigration as fallacious?”
A constant theme throughout comments in support of illegal aliens is that we are only addressing “latino” (I prefer to use Hispanic) illegals. That’s absolute balderdash! The only reason it looks that way in OUR area is because they are the most visible, and the single largest group of illegal aliens. Other areas have other illegal groups and are no less disturbed by our porous borders.
I was recently in Lynchburg and the subject of illegal aliens came up. The individual with whom I spoke was equally disturbed about the masses of people flowing into their area with no regard for our laws, our communities, or our legal residents. She said, however, “Our problem is illegal Russians.” This is not limited to one group or ethnicity, nor is it limited to one area of the state or nation. This is happening all over and people are getting fed up everywhere. Those demanding undeserved rights for the illegal population only focus on the easy “fix”…amnesty…while demanding that those seeking a more permanent, and lasting, “fix” propose it out of hand so that it may ridiculed. Well, things just are not that simple and anyone with an ounce of common sense, or actual desire to intelligently address the problem, would recognize that.
It’s taken a long time to get this problem to its current boiling point. It’s going to take a while, and perhaps some trial and error, to get things back to a point where everyone is able to live with it. The first step in this process SHOULD be controlling our borders…but our President and Federal government are loathe to pursue that. So, until THAT situation improves, it behooves the localities to look to their own…which is what we are doing.
AW, if you were President and presumably not “loathe” [sic and ouch] to secure the borders, how would you go about it?
By any means possible, Leila…including, but not limited to, using our military to close the holes. This is an issue which has been ignored for far too long and has grown far too emotional. If the pot is allowed to boil much longer, I’m afraid it might lead to a level of violence of which ALL people, of all opinions, in this country should be afraid.
Sorry about the mispelling (adding the “e”)…although, if you really think about it, merely lacking in enthusiasm really isn’t strong enough for the current policy. Glad to see that the spelling “Nazis” are alive and well.
Leila, your questions have been answered repeatedly. You have been told many times how the borders can be secured–you just don’t like the answers. Is it possible you do not want a solution?
Are you admitting that illegal aliens are evading taxes with their “unconventional” methods of transferring money?
Oh man, I’m hardly a spelling Nazi. If I were, I would be constantly on the backs of all the English-firsters here who make consistent errors beyond finger-flubbing typos. An English teacher could become suicidal around these parts, not least for all the plurals made with apostrophes as in “illegal’s” and “American’s.”
Plus I would have said something to the last person who made exactly the same error you did. I didn’t. It was just your “behooves” in the same graph as that famous usage error that tipped the balance. One simply can’t roast a chestnut like behooves and then get loath v. loathe wrong.
The icing on the cake is the error above in the post about spelling Nazis. But I’ll give you that for free.
As for the military, good luck. Even the National Guard is too busy.
Technically, Leila, English is not my first language. I am, myself, a naturalized citizen…which is one reason why I have so little understanding for people who live in this country for decades lacking even a rudimentary knowledge of English.
Monticup, I’m afraid you did not answer the question we were discussing, which is how would you trace all the billions of dollars of remittances sent by legal and illegal immigrants that are carried in cash or transacted through indirect hawala-like systems.
In any case, the US government has lots of reasons not to interfere with remittance payments given their impact on other countries’ economies.
AW, your English is better than many American-born folk. Considerably better. I think situations like the BOCS meeting would intimidate the hell out of many people who don’t trust their English skills. I can hold a casual conversation in French. But if I were in France facing a hostile panel, with plenty of hostile faces in the audience, speaking on a crucial, highly emotional subject, a rudimentary knowledge of French would not be enough. If interpreters were available, I would want one so that I could be sure I was expressing everything I thought, and not just everything I knew how to say. I would want all my linguistic weapons.
It seems reading this blog the past couple of days that every single illegal alien in PWC has been here for decades and not learned English. I haven’t been able to listen to the meeting yet, although I intend to. My computer didn’t cooperate. But I find it hard to believe each and every person using the interpreter was a person here for decades who had never learned any English.
There are so many variations of class origins, age, education, time here, experience, need, etc. to take into consideration. I would be loath
to make any kind of generalization except to say the second generation will be fine as second generations always have been. Plus adults will improve if given the right sort of encouragement.
Leila, that meeting was not the first public experience with local Hispanics who have lived in this country in excess of 20 years and have had so little respect for the United States that they’ve seen no need to even attempt to embrace the language. I’m sure many here would recall the interview that one of our television stations conducted with a gentleman in Woodbridge who proudly informed them that he had been here illegally from Argentina (I believe) for the past 28 years and had never NEEDED to speak English…an interpreter had been required, you see. There is absolutely NO reason for that except to spit in the eye of everyone who came to this country the RIGHT WAY, as well as the citizens of this nation.
These are the types of proud spokesmen who are presented as the representatives of your cause. I trust you are as proud of them as Juarez and the rest of the illegal alien lobby appear to be. This is the face that they give to their cause…and you’re surprised that people are angry?
*****Get rid of laws that circumvent the invisible hand of the free market system that cause demand for illegal labor in the first place.*****
Let me make one thing very clear: You are in favour of PASSING laws that CIRCUMVENT the INVISIBLE HAND. Your position could not be further from the free market than it is. It is the invisible hand that lures workers here. That’s what makes our country so prosperous. The only way to de-insentivise coming here for low-wage workers is to have our economy shrink, all of us make less money, all of us spend less money.
This board has been so very educational for me. Your comment (the one quoted above) made me cry. But then, I realised something: this is probably how a lot of people understand economics. And that thought frightened me. I think I may be the only fiscal conservative on this board! Just because you don’t like taxes doesn’t mean you’re a fiscal conservative. I’m in favour of the market working out a lot of these problems. Not radically increasing taxes (which is what many here propose without knowing it) and pumping up the gov’t with huge initiatives to employ tens of thousands more police, more gov’t projects, higher budget. Mayor Quimby, of Springfield, upon hearing that the citizens wanted their services, but that they didn’t want to pay for them asks his aide: ‘are these people just getting louder, or dumber?’
You can’t have a policy you can’t pay for. I wish I could say it so you could understand.
Low-wage workers in this country are typically subsidized. As one example, there was a big expose a while back about how Wal-Mart’s employees are more likely to draw public benefits.
How do those subsidies fit along with your ideal of a free market?
*****How do those subsidies fit along with your ideal of a free market?*****
Obviously, that’s not working in a free market. Wal-Mart should pay for health insurance, take better care of their workers, and pass on the increased cost of doing business to the consumer.
I’m no fan of the Wal-Mart model.
The low wage illegal alien skews the market. Wages are artificially low. Northerner, you as an economist should know that. Eliminating the illegal aliens would force businesses to innovate. Businesses will become more efficient in the long run. Of course they’re kicking and screaming–they don’t want to give up their subsidy.
The illegal aliens know very well how to game the system. They know how to march and demonstrate. They realize that they do not have to learn English–a translator will be provided at taxpayer expense so they can express themselves at rallies. They learned how to contact the ACLU. They learned that citizens do not like to see Mexican flags waved at these demonstrations so they wrap American flags around themselves. I don’t like that either.
“I’m no fan of the Wal-Mart model.”
I heard a good phrase to describe it, and what goes on with illegal aliens as well:
“Privatize profits, socialize costs”.
Rubbish. It’s hard to number the economic misconseptions in the previous post.
There is no ‘artificially low’ in the free market. Are you familiar with the concept of a free market? A minimum wage is a known market-inhibitor, same as price ceilings and price floors, monopolies, etc. If you paid $7.25 to each strawberry picker, strawberry prices would increase by whatever the offset would be. For goods where demand is elastic, they will just price themselves out of the market. It’s that simple. Clothing would be similar. And business would not innovate, they would move to Cambodia and Bangladesh. Your area will lose the corporate taxes, (property, income) and the residential, individual taxes.
If a job is worth 4$ an hour, it should be paid 4$ an hour. If the labourer finds the price too low, they negociate for a higher price, or they find a job that meets their needs.
The economics on this board…. I’m saddened and repulsed, but yet I can’t look away….
*****“Privatize profits, socialize costs”.*****
I like that, hadn’t heard it before.
monti, don’t you realize that northerner and leila are pro-illegal alien supporters? Don’t waste your time arguing with them. They use the same old excuses that all the other pro-illegal supporters use. You are wasting your time and they are baiting you.
Dear Patriot,
I’m bating nobody. I am asking what policies are going to be effective in solving the problem, I am offering my opinion as to why it won’t work, and I’m asking for a rebuttal.
I’m not sure what you expect. Is this merely a cheer-leading board for everything impractical and wrongheaded?
I have asked what policies are being supported, and I’m asking how they will benefit us, those who live in No. VA.
If this is ‘baiting’ or ‘trolling’, my friend, you have some unique definitions.
Patriot: I know, they have an agenda. You can’t reason with them.
Who’s not reasoning here? LOL
I’m asking anybody who can to defend their policy and agenda. Simply to explain how it will take place in the real world. Nobody’s even tried.
I, however, don’t think I’ve burst any bubbles by posting here, because many here live in a fantasy-land where democracy means legalised descrimination and state-sanctioned racism.
God Bless America, the land that will never allow these things to happen.
The basic premise of free market is that it evolve freely, without extraneous influences and pressures…such as slavery and/or indentured servitude, and government (rather than market) influenced advantages (i.e. controlled interest rates) or disadvantages (i.e. over-regulation). There are necessary regulations involving safety, proper treatment of employees, etc. (the logical ones), but the only way that a free market works is if the playing field, and rules, are level for all players. It strikes me as odd that a self-named economist would consider the current situation, as it relates to illegal aliens, a necessary element of free market.
There are currently two sets of rules in play here…one for small, entrepreneurial business unwilling to break the law and another for high profit, rapidly growing to multi-national business who break the law routinely without consequence. The baseline for those businesses who follow the rules (hire people with legitimate social security numbers and pay their payroll taxes, unemployment insurance, and Workman’s Compensation, as well as offering industry-appropriate benefits for full-time workers) is at a decided disadvantage for those businesses who do not follow the rules (knowingly hire illegal aliens with either no SSN as “casual labor” or with stolen documentation who are operating under the radar and will never apply for Workman’s Comp or Unemployment because it runs the risk of getting caught, thus keeping their employers rates low and their profits high). Ultimately, the consequence of this double standard will see the disappearance of the small businessman and a rapidly increasing monopoly in the various industries of businesses who only care about the bottom line…not their employees OR their customers. This bears absolutely NO resemblance to a “Free Market” of which I am familiar, Mr. Northerner!
AWC,
I posted this on other threads….it is about subcontractors in Arlington
I found it on you tube there are 4 parts to it.
I believe this fits into what you are talking about.
I have posted part 1 and part 4 ( you can click on the director of the video and get parts 3 & 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r50P4eH6HR0&mode=related&search=illegal%20immigration%20alien%20raea%20leinster%20virginia
There are 4 parts. Click on the director and it will list the other videos posted. Very interesting.
here is part 4 I love the last statements
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0WTzhF1peA
Correction (unclear conjunction):
Replace “for” with “versus” those businesses who do not follow the rules.
This gem from Northener:
“Do you really not see the link between 9/11 and illegal latino immigration as fallacious?”
In a word, no.
http://www.vdare.com/malkin/testimony.htm
http://www.theamericancause.org/licencedto.htm
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=4220
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/MichelleMalkin/2006/05/17/911,_the_pentagon,_and_our_borders