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The Civil Rights Commission Is Coming To Town
By Greg L | 9 November 2007 | Prince William County | 234 Comments
I got a tip tonight that the U.S. Commission On Civil Rights is planning on holding hearings on Prince William County’s crack down on illegal aliens sometime in mid-December, and that former Secretary of Labor nominee Linda Chavez is going to be the one leading the hearings. Yes, this is the same Linda Chavez whose nomination by President Bush was derailed once it was learned that she had failed to withhold Social Security from the compensation provided to her housekeeper, who may have been an illegal alien.
This ought to be quite a circus.
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What is Linda Chavez’s title now?
Was the U.S. Commission On Civil Rights invited or is this self-importation?
Who do they hold hearings with? Where do they meet?
Main question, by whose authority?
Linda is one of these de factor defenders of illegals, pleading that at least for those illegals that are hispanic, hold the same values the GOP stands for. So, in her mind, the GOP needs to embrace hispanics by embracing illegals. Otherwise, the GOP will appear to be anti-hispanic.
The same Linda Chavez who is on the board of a giant janitorial company and who has a vested interest in open borders.
This can’t be true. What are her qualifications?
“This ought to be quite a circus.”
No more of a circus than Corey Stewart’s “crackdown on illegal immigration.” Strategists say you guys scared independents away from voting with Republicans because of this issue.
I suppose I am speechless and outraged with disbelief.
So, you are telling me that she is not even a government employee? (not that being one would excuse this) I am just trying to understand. Something is rotten in the the state of Virginia.
Peace,
I’m sorry but who won the Chairman race this past Tuesday? Who won the House race in the 50th district? Both of those races were about one issue, illegal immigration. Both winners increased their margin over victory over the same opponents from last year. Add the other races in the County that went the way for those fighting illegal immigration, and I am surprised you even want to talk about the election.
Greg,
Are you sure its the U.S. Commission On Civil Rights and not the Center for Equal Opportunity?
Linda Chavez is chairman of the Center for Equal Opportunity, a non-profit public policy research organization in Sterling, Virginia.
http://www.stopunionpoliticalabuse.org/lindachavez/bio.htm
Even if it is the US Civil Rights Commission and Linda Chavez coming to PWC, here is what she had to say about that group a couple of months ago: :
“The Commission has no civil rights enforcement authority; those duties belong to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the Justice Department, the Department of Labor’s Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs, and other agencies that administer the provisions of the nation’s myriad civil rights laws.”
and this: “In recent years, the Civil Rights Commission has come under fire for being unnecessary, even counter-productive.”
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/LindaChavez/2007/09/07/why_we_still_need_a_civil_rights_watchdog
But if you want an idea of where she stands on the issue of illegal aliens, you only need to read this:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/LindaChavez/2007/05/25/latino_fear_and_loathing
Peace, I am an Independent and I voted mostly Republican this time around, including Corey Stewart. Illegal immigration is my greatest concern. If we have no country left, nothing else matters.
Isn’t it amazing to note the similarities with the 50s???
Racist laws enacted at a local level which violate the civil rights of their nonwhite citizens. Then you see federal agents having to come down from washington to investigate and protect the rights of all citizens.
Is it happening all over again?
“Peace, I am an Independent and I voted mostly Republican this time around, including Corey Stewart. Illegal immigration is my greatest concern. If we have no country left, nothing else matters.”
Just reporting what the experts are saying… After all, Republicans are now courting the Hispanic vote for the 2008 elections.
Make sure she sees the flop houses, all of the vacant houses that were trashed by the illeglas, point out the cat houses that were shut down that were being run by Latinos etc etc. Give her an eyeful!
AntiGreg -
Say what you will, but the African AMERICAN people were here LEGALLY. Although some of them were brought here against their will, they actually have a right to be here.
No where in our constitution does it say that we have to cater to the illegal population. What civil rights are being violated when we ask our government to actually enforce the laws of our country?
The illegal alien apologists and their cronies are the one who have made this into a race issue, because when you seperate legal from ILLEGAL they have no argument.
Maybe Ms. Chavez can hook up with the PWC Human Rights Commission since they were so unbiased in what they did and reported. (sarcasm)
Oh boy, I am soooooo happy that Linda Chavez is going to ride in on her white horse from Loudon and sort this all out to match HER particular PC perspective.
Unfortunately, we will still be out of state and will not be able to participate. Sigh. I find it interesting that all these pro-illegals just don’t know how to respond when confronted with LEGAL immigrants such as myself and my family, who are deeply resentful at their attempts to blur the line between “legal” and “illegal”.
From my perspective, if the “open borders” advocates get their way and “legalize” all existing illegal aliens, that smacks of incredible bias and prejudice against any immigrant who has followed the rules and followed existing immigration law.
Ya gotta read this one.
A clear mandate for Barletta:
http://www.standardspeaker.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6215&Itemid=9
Well said usmcwife! As a LEGAL immigrant myself, I couldn’t agree more.
Nov. 9, 2007 / 28 Mar-Cheshvan 5768
Immigrant issue can’t save GOPers
By Linda Chavez
For the second time in as many years, immigration has fizzled as a wedge issue at the polls. In 2006, Republicans hoped to use anger over illegal immigration to maintain control of Congress, but failed miserably, losing races even in states like Arizona and Colorado that have experienced large influxes of illegal aliens.
What the Virginia GOP failed to appreciate on the illegal immigration front is the difference between intensity and salience in voter behavior. Some voters are intensely angry about illegal immigration, and they tend to dominate the talk show airwaves and show up at candidate gatherings. But the number of voters for whom this is the single biggest voting issue is relatively small.
A larger group of voters may worry about the effect of illegal immigration on their communities; but when they go to the polls, other concerns trump the issue. Illegal immigration simply isn’t a salient issue with most voters on Election Day
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/chavez110907.php3
She’s right. There are talk shows and blogs like this one in which the angry folks participate, but at the end of the day, they’re just a handful of voters.
You lost the elections, but hey, at least you got the blog!
It’s the latinos that want special privileges to which they are NOT entitled. Their allegiance is not to the US, as is obvious when they speak at citizens time in PWC, and prove daily they have no intention of assimilating. Whatever sympathy I had for their plight is ever diminishing by their liberty wall rant and the “help” they bring to our community with the likes of Mexicans without Borders, Unity in the Community, Puerto Rican Legal Defense Fund, Linda Chavez, etc. We all know that most of the candidates want to ignore this most important issue - they are willing to sell out the country for votes. They try to convince us that most people don’t care about this issue. That is their
strategy.Even Spitzer in NY is being challenged and sued by other politicians for his antics.
Lafayette - after seeing the expose of MS-13, etc. on tv the other night, I think we need mandatory capital punishment for those crimes - no more lifers who have proven they continue to break the law from prison.
Ducky, are you the Ducky would used to live on Woodstock in Westgate?
In cases where candidates are honest, and addressed illegal aliens, they prevail. An example is Chuck Colgan, who has done nothing and doesn’t intend to, but LIED in his ads. Yeah, the general population does not have the time nor inclination to pay attention and get the truth. Even trusting people on this blog continue rhetoric of candidates who said they would work hard to “address immigration” when more often than not, they mean “amnesty”. But voters who do take the time to decipher, vote for people who intend to uphold the rule of law.
You guys are great at attacking Democrats on the issue of illegal aliens.
Seems to me this is the time to ATTACK Bush and Chavez. Protests with signs like “Sorry about your nanny Linda”. “President Bush - whatever happened to the law?” “You failed us Bush - now leave is alone”. “Bush and Chavez - Bringing Mexico to America”. “Illegal aliens and their elitist apologists - go home!”
Bush IS the problem here. He sat and watched the problem grow, deliberately, then tried to foist an amnesty on us as a solution. As well, HIS Justice Department sued Manassas for the sins of trying to prevent overcrowding (affects Latinos disproportionately!) and checking how many families claim the same address when registering for schools (Lying is ok! Yoyu can’t share info on lawbreakers!).
RB - well said!
Just read the earlier post about language and you will understand why they are coming. While you (we) are against illegal immigration, a lot of legal Hispanic immigrants are caught in the crossfire. The fact that a bank is hiring a Spanish speaking employee is only reasonable since the Hispanic population is growing in our area (and the United States). There are around 42 million (depending on your source) Latinos in this Country. They are now the largest “minority.” They buy gas, groceries, clothes, paint, and… yes… they need banks, so don’t expect business to be on your side. As they gain legal status and eventually citizenship they will vote, so don’t expect politicians to be on your side. Groups like HSM will only strengthen their resolve, cause them to get organized, and help them achieve their goals more quickly. You are actually doing them a favor.
I spent 15 years in Europe and the Far East. Americans living and traveling overseas (”ugly Americans”) are notorious for not learning the local language and expecting everyone to know English. Most Europeans are multi-lingual and laugh at our arrogance. It appears this arrogance extends to leople who leagally live in our Country. The Constitution does not give you the right to deny someone else their pursuit of happiness because they don’t happen to speak the language of your choice. Get over it.
Remember, it’s Democrat candidate for nomination Hillary Clinton who has hired former LaRaza leader Raul Yzaguirre to co-chair her campaign. Or as Human Events puts it “Clintonista Reconquista” -
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=20252&keywords=clintonista+reconquista
http://www.hispanictips.com/2007/04/12/hillary-clinton-taps-hispanic-outreach-leader-raul-yzaguirre/
BTW, now that the legal hispanics are lumped in with illegals by their advocates, I no longer do business with any of their stores here in PWC. Yep, I even leave stores/restaurants when I see them. Those of us who stand up for rule of law can also boycott and we don’t need to call it for just one week.
Old Soldier,
Much of what you have said makes a great deal of sense and reminded me of an incident at least 10 years ago. I had gone up to Sudley North to pay my personal property taxes–at the last minute. There was a fairly small group of Hispanics there attempting to do the same thing I was doing and they were having a great deal of difficulty completing the necessary forms.
The forms were all in English and there was no Spanish-speaking county agent there to help them. I tried to assist the best I could because I do have limited knowledge of the language. Operative word here…limited. Muy malo!
I spent much more time there than I wanted to but felt if someone was there trying to pay their taxes, how could this be a bad thing. I thought that the county was at cross purposes with its own goals at the time. Had the county had an influx of Chinese, I would have felt the same way.
If you want people to pay taxes and you have an LEP population, hup to it and make it so they can do what is expected of them.
I believe government and business both need to look at the demographics and do what is necessary to achieve the intended goals. That is the more pragmatic approach. Everyone’s money is green at this point. Take it.
The Constitution does not give us the right to deny someone else their pursuit of happiness because they don’t speak our language. However, this isn’t about pursuit of happiness. For me it’s about sovereignty and insuring that the welcome mat has been removed for ANYBODY who thinks that coming and staying without permission is a valid option.
We are arrogant. So are many other cultures. The arrogance of the illegals is one example.
Dolph,
An excellent example… thank you. Pragmatic is the operative word.
It takes time to learn our language. You don’t magically start speaking English when you are issued a green card. It takes time. Since a huge increase in the Hispanic population during this time in history is a fact of life, we need to make certain accomodations while they assimilate. To do otherwise is not realistic (and mean spirited).
Government is Government, Business is Business, and both respond to the market. Right now, a large percentage of the Market is speaking Spanish.
Oldsolder,
Hispanics make up an estimated 18% of the County population. How is that a large percentage? Also, you assume that every hispanic only speaks spanish. It is not mean spirited to expect people to speak English if they have decided to move here from another Country.
If anything there is too much accomodations for those that do not speak English.
old, you are turning a blind eye to the fact that this is an invasion, unwelcome & unregulated, not to be confused with controlled, legal immigration.
Good post, Dolph. I’d rather have forms available in Spanish than have to wait in a longer line. I feel the same way about pressing “1″ for English or “2″ for Spanish. It doesn’t tie up the phonelines as much for a business. If I call NOVEC, I have a chance for my question to be answered more quickly if non-English speakers are using another line and speaking with someone fluent in their language. It’s good businesss considering the change in demographics.
We do not need the North American Union, we need the border secured…to stop the flood, to stop false hopes, to stop the need for even more poeple to face the long journey back home.
This is not mean-spirited at all….it has nothing to do with language, skin color, or culture. Immigrants can certainly learn English and we have many people of all colors in this country. Latino people who come here without permission are here illegally, are being taken advantage of, and the mere fact that they ARE illegal creates a poverty class with virtually no opportunity for advancement.
Gotta agree with those of you arguing for reasonable accommodation of non-English speakers. I work in government; once upon a time my function did a mailing of some important instructions with English on one side of the paper, and Spanish on the other.
You should have heard the screaming outrage from those who felt we were giving away the farm to “those people.” Never mind that the mailing was going to people whose identities were already on record to some degree with our government unit, and that the information (if followed) would have tended toward bringing readers into better compliance with the law.
I am all for the rule of law. I fail to see how explaining legal requirements in terms that people can understand is compromise with illegal immigration.
Legal2,
I’m complete favor of the mandatory capital punishment for these crimes. That’s why these taggings that keep popping are so alarming to me. Fire “sparky” up for these thugs!!
????????? Is there an American Citizen Civil Rights Commission?
What have we become? Just read in the Manassas Journal Messenger there is an State Police investigation regarding the election. It seems as if hispanic voters were harrassed and intimidated when they arrived at the polls to vote. They were shouted at and threatened. Those hispanic voters were legally able to vote in the elections. I recall that I was called a racist when I mentioned in a previous comment last week that I hoped hispanic voters would not be harrassed and intimidated at the polls. I did not really see what that had to do with being a racist, since I was only stating that I hoped the hispanics would be treated fairly. I just wanted to make sure all the HSM types would behave. Guess they did not. What a shame. Those who did the harrassing should be ashamed.
Oldsoldier - Thank you for your balance and reason and for the comments
Depends on what your definition of “assisting the voter” means. I heard that “interpreters” were instructing the voters who to select. I think that goes beyond “helping”.
Racism, schmacism. Racism is not the issue here.
Are we or are we not a sovereign nation?
Do Vicente Fox/Calderon (they’re both corrupt) have any business meddling in our affairs and why is Jorge Bush and Ronny Sutton kowtowing to them?
Why are illegal aliens exempt from laws that we US citizens must obey?
Anonymous,
I agree that is the perception of the video. It does not cast a very good light for all the hard work and efforts made by some of those members, including Greg.
For the record this is my belief:
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one
comes to the Father except through me.”
John 14:6
monticup said on 10 Nov 2007 at 12:18 pm:
Why are illegal aliens exempt from laws that we US citizens must obey?
Because they are latinos and consider themselves exempt from our laws. POR LA RAZA!
FHL on 10 Nov 2007 at 11:31 am:
Before anyone jumps to conclusions, let the investigation go forward and let the chips fall where they may. If it is found that certain voters were intiminated (what is considered intimination if no one was physically threatened?) then take the appropriate action against the offenders. I’ll bet ten to one that none of this “intimination” occured and it is a ruse to “stir the pot” by the illegal alien appologists.
FHL on 10 Nov 2007 at 11:31 am:
999 is exactly right. I haven’t seen the FBI.
Do you have any proof of this “intimidation” you speak of?
999,
FHL sure soundS like he/she belong to MSF. What do you think the odds are of that?
anonymoustoo on 10 Nov 2007 at 9:57 am:
How about the forms and phone instructions also being provided in Farsi, Arabic, Vietnamese, French, Chinese, Japanese, Navaho, Tibetan, Burmese, Russian, Ethiopian, Swahili, Afrikan and all the rest of the world languages?
West Gate Witch on 10 Nov 2007 at 1:39 pm:
I personally think it is a ruse. On election night, channel 4 news at 11 reported that there was an anonymous phone call made to one of the election “hotlines” saying voters were being iniminated at the Stonewall precint polls. Where did channel 4 get this information (another anonymous call?) ANONYMOUS says it all!
999-Anonymous is used too much these days.
Use your name or just pick a fun name.-lol
Any pictures or video of all this intimidation?
I love how when people want to support illegals it is reasonable etc, yet when we want laws to be enforced, it is racist.
I will ask the same questions regarding language as I have with how much are the supporters of illegals willing to overlook their criminal behavior.
If one can go to the local Government, local store, local bank, etc, and not have to speak a word of English, exactly how and when will folks learn to speak English? Oh, and don’t forgot they can also pick up the local foreign language paper and watch the local foreign language station.
Exactly at what point is too much accommodation? Do you expect people who can conduct all of their everyday business in a foreign language to learn English?
FHL,
Do you always consider folks to be guilty before the investigation is finished?
Old soldier and Dolph — do either one of you have children in any of the elementary schools are around here, specifically Manassas City?
Because it really sucks when you tell me to hug them and help them learn Spanish, when my American kids are stuck in classes where the majority only speak Spanish and their education is screwed!!!!
What all of you pro-illegals keep forgetting is that it is our tax dollars that pay for all their babies and any other health care, their education, food stamps, and any other program they can access, while the businesses and the government put all the profits in their pockets.
So how is it FAIR that American families who are struggling to pay their bills, put gas in their car, and get a decent education for their children have to also pay for the illegal aliens?
mtnhiker said on 10 Nov 2007 at 2:48 pm:
AMEN! I could not agree more!
Regarding what mtnhiker said on 10 Nov 2007 at 2:48 pm:
I agree with most of your points (although I think I was clear in my post that I was talking about legal immigrants. I am definitely not pro-illegal immigrant. Mixing these two groups so easily is a big problem. Business does put the profits in their pockets. They also create the jobs that drive our economy and pay taxes on those profits. Without business, you would be… well… probably out of a job.
So, I’m talking about business… not education. Different issue. You elect the school board. You should be able to influence who and what they teach. I’m not sure I heard this issue raised during the campaign (although I wasn’t really paying attention). Of course, there are Federal guidelines. That’s what Congressmen are for. A lot of people have legitimate issues with our education system. I hope they are communicating their concerns to their Congressmen. If you feel strongly enough, you can influence your school board to ignore congress (and foot the bill in taxes for your decision.)
Perhaps it’s time to take a run at the School Board like you (I’m referring to HSM) influenced PWC BOCS (unless you have already and I missed it).
Now that I think about it, Education is also driven by the free market (or what people need). If the legal immigrants in our community need an education in Spanish, I suspect our Schools will deliver it. That’s their job. It’s not really any different than responding to other evolving needs in the community… teaching computers or construction because there’s a demand for it. Schools are responsible for giving our citizens the tools to function in society. English for people who need help with the language certainly qualifies.
So… was the ESL an issue for School Board candidates during the last election? I really didn’t keep track (my two children already graduated from PWC schools).
Oh mtnhiker, you have misread me. I don’t want you to hug anyone. I am not a pro-illegal. I perhaps am not as vociferous as many here about the situation, but I am certainly not pro-illegal.
I have grandchildren in county schools. I am probably more aware of much of what you have described than you can imagine. What you are dealing with has a root cause stemming from NCLB. You need to write to your congressman and senators and howl bloody murder because NCLB is up for renewal as we speak. Many of us have posted about the problems with this horrible piece of legislation.
As for illegals being in the schools….what can I tell you. They are to be educated and that is the law. Supreme Court ruling. I don’t see where anyone has any control over it at this point. You need an over-ruling or legislation to change the laws.
I simply said that it is pragmatic to allow people to pay taxes and conduct business. Please do not read anything else in to what I said. If you do not want LEP people pay taxes, ok by me. I do. You are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.
The NCLB is why I dont send my children to public school. When my kids need to compete with illegal immigrants this is a problem. I’ll pay to ensure my children are educated properly but I should not have to. I’m pretty irritated about this, we actually toured the local school around where I live and left with a bad taste in our mouth. Seeing a class full of kids speaking spanish left me wondering were my child who speaks only english fits in.
Regarding what mtnhiker said on 10 Nov 2007 at 2:48 pm
…and the problems with schools are tax issues. Pay more taxes, get a better education for your children… a better teacher/student ratio… seperate classes for ESL kids. Congress mandated part of our current problem. We can “buy” our way out of it.
It’s that simple… choices of how much we pay in taxes and how our County spends them. I don’t even have kids in school; however, I wouldn’t object to a property tax increase to fund more teachers and better schools.
Illegal aliens are, quite frankly, another unfunded federal mandate (or a tax) on our local school system (and us).
I’ll buy the “is it fair” arguement that you bring up from any family that doesn’t have cable or a dish, an xbox, a motorcycle in the garage, a DVD player and a video club card, etc. A tax increase to significantly improve schools would probably cost each family less than one DVD rental a month.
NCLB didn’t cause your child to have to compete with illegal immigrants. The Supreme Court ruling back in 1982 did that.
What NCLB did do was refocus the entire course of instruction to favor those who fall in to the special group (sacred cow) categories of: minority, special education, esol, and economically disadvantaged.
Westgate Witch,
I do not belong to MSF. I am not hispanic or latino. I do not belong to any organization. I am an independent person who thinks independently. I do not need an organization to help me craft my thoughts or beliefs.
Citizen of Manassas,
I did not say anyone was guilty. I said there was an investigation being conducted by the VA State Police. There was some intimidation. It should not have happened. The investigation will determine to what extent and if those involved should be charged.Hopefully a decision will be made on the facts and not on bias.
I have no problem with forms being in Spanish. If Finns were a large chunk of PW County’s demographics, I’d have no problem with forms in Finnish (which by the way is a difficult language to learn). I took Latin and French in high school and French in college (forty years ago). I think I’d find it hard to quickly learn another language at my age unless I were emersed in that culture. Too many of you are asking middle-aged and older immigrants to quickly learn English when I’d bet most of you aren’t fluent in another language yourselves.
There’s also an assumption by many people that because a person is Hispanic that he/she can’t speak English. One Hispanic woman we know had the police called on her by a white female neighbor. The officer arrived and started speaking Spanish to our acquaintance. She asked him why and he said that her neighbor said that she (our acquaintance) didn’t speak English. This is the same neighbor who has lived next door to our acquaintance for five years and has never bothered to say a word to her…merely assumed that since she was Hispanic that she spoke no English. I think that is how problems in neighborhoods begin…with the assumption that the “other” has nothing in common with us instaed of extending a welcoming hand. I think most neighbors, Hispanic or otherwise, would be won over by a big old warm pie and a welcome wagon style greeting!
Who gets involved in investigating voter intimidation…just the State police or does the FBI as well? I don’t think intimidation is limited to threats of physical violence but could include any intimidation meant to suppress votes. Advocator, you had better have been joking when you stated that you put up a sign saying “no illegals” in the parking lot entrance to the polling place…particularly if it’s the same precinct being investigated.
Dolph - Yes, I whole-heartedly agree that NCLB doesn’t work. NCLB requires all children (whether they can speak or read English or not) to take the same tests. But if a certain percentage of students do not pass these tests, then funding is restricted. So you are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Currently in the Manassas City schools, kids are required to take the SOLs, MAP tests, Gates Reading tests, and so on in the elementary, intermediate, and middle schools. They spend a significant amount of time taking tests rather than learning.
Old solider - again where is the fairness if you are asking me to pay more taxes to provide ESOL classes to non-English speaking children whose illegal parents most likely did not pay theirs (unless they applied for a Tax ID Number or use someone else’s SSN)?
My point is I am an American. I follow the rules. I pay my taxes. I support my schools and community. I do not reap any benefits from illegal immigration. I work hard for my American dream. So, if that means I buy my child an x-box, so be it. But don’t ask me to pay more taxes to teach English to illegal aliens.
Bottom line, it’s about fairness to the American people.
anonymoustoo,
When did the welcome wagon concept vanish into obscurity? I remember it as a kid.
Just out of curiosity, did you go to school in VA and do you live in PWC now?
MWC-back ini the dark ages.
The amount spent per student has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the education. Same with student/teacher ration–it has no bearing on results. The more money you give to the education monopoly, the less you get. More money means more waste. Kind of like LBJ’s Great Society. Trillions spent and for what?
This country cannot continue to take care of 30+ illegal aliens. No country on earth can absorb millions of an uneducated, illiterate, often criminal underclass like we’ve been expected to. In Europe, they are starting to wake up. Italy is starting to deport their illegals and France is starting to get tough.
mtnhiker,
No argument from me about what has happened to the schools. I do not like it a bit better than you do. To me, it is just a form of extortion by the feds. And no, your child is not getting the education they deserve because of NCLB. The entire program is designed to get the sacred cows to pass so funding is not lost. That’s the nuts and bolts of it. And it was ushered in under the radar before any of us knew what hit us. It even has a sweet and innocent name. After all, who would want a child left behind? In my opinion, it should have been named NO CHILD LEFT WITH A BEHIND, because everyone is losing their arse.
correction–that was 30 million+ illegal aliens
Monticup,
I disagree with you completely about the teacher pupil ratio. It is critical to student success. The younger the student, the more critical. Actually, it is a simple division problem. 35 kids, one teacher. 20 kids one teacher. Which set of kids will get the most time with the teacher one on one?
Dolph,
I’ve lived in the Independent Hill area of PW County for about twenty-five years (spent a few years in Lake Ridge as well).
I went to college in Virginia (with a few courses at GWU, as well)…started when most schools were still segregated by sex and finished at GMU. I went from grammar school through high school in a state south of here.
I don’t think I’ve heard much about the welcome wagon since the early seventies. It’s probably not a bad idea to bring it back. I’ve approached a couple BOCS members with some info on a pilot revitalization program being tried in Fairfax that employs many ideas about bringing neighbors together. It (neighborhood involvement by the majority of residents) really has to be done to turn neighborhoods around.
Dolph–the most important indicator of student success is the family. Is the family involved and interested? Does the family value education? Do they read and stress the importance of learning? Are they curious about the world around them? This is what produces a successful student. Don’t teachers have teachers aides, anyhow? Asking for a smaller student/teacher ratio is a ploy the teacher union uses to demand more money.
Dolph & anonymoustoo,
I just checked and there is no Welcome Wagon in our area anymore.
http://www.welcomewagon.com/
The last time I had and encounter with them was in early 90.
I remember when people would wave to each other, open the store door, say good morning, SMILE
I am not saying this doesn’t still exist but we could always use more kindness. I am very blessed that I have life long neighbors and we all look out for one another.
Even when I had moved away from the area ( Fairfax) I was blessed to have the neighbors we did. We all even went on trips together,etc.
A lot of crap can be stopped by getting to know them first, at least try and if not then do what you have to do as far a dispute.
Redawn,
“A lot of crap can be stopped by getting to know them first, at least try and if not then do what you have to do as far a dispute.”
That’s true. But too many people jump right to the second option and skip getting to know the neighbors. Some neighbors are friendlier than others but it’s probably best to give new neighbors an initial break.
I looked up welcome wagon on wikipedia and it seems that the initial “meet and greet” pretty much died out in the early 80s. It still survives as a means of getting to know local merchants though.
About fifteen years ago my neighborhood’s newsletter put out a list of services offered by residents of the neighborhood…kind of a keep your money in the neighborhood since if your neighbors prosper so does the neighborhood.
anonymoustoo said on 10 Nov 2007 at 4:31 pm:
I have no problem with forms being in Spanish. If Finns were a large chunk of PW County’s demographics, I’d have no problem with forms in Finnish (which by the way is a difficult language to learn). I took Latin and French in high school and French in college (forty years ago). I think I’d find it hard to quickly learn another language at my age unless I were emersed in that culture. Too many of you are asking middle-aged and older immigrants to quickly learn English when I’d bet most of you aren’t fluent in another language yourselves.
There’s also an assumption by many people that because a person is Hispanic that he/she can’t speak English. One Hispanic woman we know had the police called on her by a white female neighbor. The officer arrived and started speaking Spanish to our acquaintance. She asked him why and he said that her neighbor said that she (our acquaintance) didn’t speak English. This is the same neighbor who has lived next door to our acquaintance for five years and has never bothered to say a word to her…merely assumed that since she was Hispanic that she spoke no English. I think that is how problems in neighborhoods begin…with the assumption that the “other” has nothing in common with us instaed of extending a welcoming hand. I think most neighbors, Hispanic or otherwise, would be won over by a big old warm pie and a welcome wagon style greeting!
Who gets involved in investigating voter intimidation…just the State police or does the FBI as well? I don’t think intimidation is limited to threats of physical violence but could include any intimidation meant to suppress votes. Advocator, you had better have been joking when you stated that you put up a sign saying “no illegals” in the parking lot entrance to the polling place…particularly if it’s the same precinct being investigated.
The fact businesses and Governments are printing or advertising items in a foreign language seems to indicate they do not think hispanics speak anything but spanish. That is what drives me crazy, they assume and want to pander, which is wrong.
Of course I do not know how to speak another language, I was born in America and have only been out of the Country twice. If I were to move to another Country, I would take the steps to learn the language even starting before arriving.
anonymoustoo,
It is beneficial to get to your neighbors. It is always a POSITIVE way to be aware of your surroundings. I can speak of so much good that we have experienced personally by doing so. Here and when I lived in Fairfax. ( we ALL still remain friends to this very day)
When a problem would arise with a neighbor,we all tried to solve it ourselves. When one neighbor tried and failed another neighbor picked up from there with their approach. ( as you say some are more friendlier than others) etc., we solved a lot of things this way and gained a lot of respect and sometimes those neighbors chimed in and became friends or more involved. COMMUNICATION and RESPECT are key. ( example: just look at it as if it were at work…wouldn’t you want that co-worker to come to you before going to the boss? or the shoe being on the other foot)
By the way, how MISERABLE it would be to have tension living right next to you after a stressful day of work etc., when a lot of it could be avoided. Heck, I know I have enjoyed my neighbor asking, do you need something from the store and vice versa…Saved a lot of dinners, etc.
WelcomeWagon - I still have a small stool given to us, among other things, by the WW when we moved to Mountain View, Calif in the mid-50s. Donated by a hardware store! Remember the REAL hardware stores? Nostalgia-
Our HOA used to have a welcomer who went to visit new neighbors to give them info abt the area, but no more. Maybe I’ll stir up something. Redawn= inspiration!
COM,
One summer in college I took a small class in which the majority of students were not US citizens. There were Kuwaitis, Iranians, a Japanese guy, a Brit, and a few of us. We were to take a written test on the material for our final exam. The foreigners talked the prof into giving us an oral exam instead. They all spoke perfect English but the material that I could read in three hours took them three times as long because of the slowness in making the written translation. We were all equals when it came to an oral test.
I suspect that that is the reason some Hispanics who do speak English prefer to read and fill out the forms in Spanish.
My mother still has a bowl given to her by a WW lady.
The pilot program in Fairfax employs neighborhood watch, neighborhood meetings to set standards for zoning enforcement, language classes, leadership training, community education, minority outreach, etc.
Krusty,
There is a REAL hardware store, right here in good ole Manassas as talked about on another thread: J E RICE
They are nostalgia 
We need to look out for the mom and pop shops
Linda Chavez does not head the US Commission on Civil Rights. Greg L is a liar.
Ducky: “Greg L is a liar.”
Bwahahaha! You’ll have to do MUCH better than that!
I don’t believe Linda Chavez is anybody (except a talking head once in a while). Way back she said she got her appointment because of her name. She was born here and, if I remember correctly, she said that she doesn’t speak much Spanish. IMO, she doesn’t have much to offer but has managed to stay in the spotlight, albeit a diminishing one. Maybe she’s out to try to get back in the news. I haven’t read anything about her leading an investigation, but what do I know? Greg L. gets tips, he says. Evidently he has a direct pipeline to them that know.
FHL-Good for you! Indpendent thinker, eh?
Some details fr Wikipedia: Chavez was born in Albuquerque; father Mexican, mother anglo-American; married to Christopher Gersten, jewish; children brought up Jewish; lives in Purcellville, VA. In 1986 she ran against Maryland senator Barbara Mikulski (calling her a San Francisco-style McGovern Democrat!) Interesting reading. Nothing stating that she’s heading any kind of government investigating group.
Does anyone have an estimate of how many illegal immigrants are in the County now? How about how many Non-US Citizen children of illegal immigrants in our schools. Any numbers? Estimates? All I’ve seen is the occasional anecdotal story (a bad neighbor, rude behavoir, day laborers hanging out, etc.)?
My point, do we have a handle on how big (or small) the problem really is? If we don’t know the numbers now, how will we know if things improve (other than more anecdotal evidence)?
Oldsoldier,
Good question. Everyone wants to know. How does one prove when there is no paper trail, or false paper trails. ( id theft/fraud) When someone wants to go in hiding or being smuggled, how do you put a number on such?
I don’t know anything about this site or how old the info is having merely found it through a google search.
“Linda Chavez chairs the Virginia state advisory committee to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights.”
http://www.ceousa.org/content/view/497/68/
Monticup,
No real unions in this state. I will have to agree that a supportive family is a key component of educational success, although I have known plenty of people who came from nothing at all, got no family support and still ended up very successful. This is also an area over which a school has no control at all.
Student teacher ratio is critical with younger students. I don’t care if you are in the poorest state in the nation or the richest. The more one on one time a child can have, the easier learning will be.
Try having a class with 38-40 students all falling over each other and listen to the parents begin to howl. There are people who love to denounce money when it comes to public education. I guess I don’t understand those who think teachers should live below the poverty level. It has just never made sense to me.
Re what anonymoustoo said on 10 Nov 2007 at 8:06 pm:
Virginia state advisory committee? We have a Virginia State Advisory committee? Greg L (or someone else from HSM)
should be on that committee. They meed multiple points of view.
oldsoldier/anonymoustoo,
The PWCHRC/Immigration Sub-Committe sure didn’t show multiple points of view.
… and I think you can buy a better education. More of what you need (teachers, facilities, equipment), better or what you need (teachers, facilities, education). I’m not dismissing parent involvement; however, why not work all of the variables (including the one’s you can buy). I have no problem paying for it in higher taxes even though my children have already graduated.
Check this out. Bloomberg (Mayor, NY) even pays parents to take care of their children: http://www.bvbl.net/index.php/2007/11/09/the-civil-rights-commission-is-coming-to-town/#comment-38825
anonymoustoo said on 10 Nov 2007 at 6:21 pm:
COM,
One summer in college I took a small class in which the majority of students were not US citizens. There were Kuwaitis, Iranians, a Japanese guy, a Brit, and a few of us. We were to take a written test on the material for our final exam. The foreigners talked the prof into giving us an oral exam instead. They all spoke perfect English but the material that I could read in three hours took them three times as long because of the slowness in making the written translation. We were all equals when it came to an oral test.
I suspect that that is the reason some Hispanics who do speak English prefer to read and fill out the forms in Spanish.
There is more to this then providing a few forms that are in a foreign language. Go into Home Deport and just about every item they sale has two languages on the packaging.
Sorry, wrong link (above). Try this one. http://www.tellinitlikeitis.net/2007/09/mayor-bloomberg-paying-poor-to-do-right.html
Anonymoustoo,
We sound like we are around the same vintage. MWC here., back when it was gender segregated. Public school in VA also, all but about 4 years. I have taken a few courses at GMU postgrad. I have been in the county almost 40 years but always lived on the west end.
I remember the welcome wagon people bring soap samples. Strange thing to remember. Now people don’t know their neighbors. I think that stems from everyone going off to work and unless you have kids the same age, it is a wave over the garbage cans. I guess that beats not speaking altogether though.
COM,
Since the construction trades are heavily Hispanic, it seems logical to have Spanish on the materials that they purchase. I would want a worker to be able to read the paint can instructions or to be able to discern sanded from unsanded grout. Also, many goods are sold globally. It isn’t just Spanish on many of the instructions that come with lamps, furniture, etc.
Dolph,
We probably are about the same vintage. A couple of my college friends were suspended from Radford for attending frat parties at Tech. Ha ha. Now guys and gals share the same college dorms. A friend who attended Auburn had to wear a raincoat for the walk between her dorm and the tennis courts so that no one would see her in shorts! I’m dating myself.
I think the long commutes and work schedules do hinder more civic activism. It’s hard to keep clubs going or to get officers for clubs. No one has much time to spare.
Ducky,
Perhaps Greg is mistaken. Happens to the best of us. It is pretty difficult to pin down exactly what Linda Chavez does.
There is the old story about telling a woman her face is so ugly it would stop a clock or telling her when you see her face, time stands still.
Just a thought…..
Anon,
Again, at what point do we expect people to learn English when they are living here? Can you please answer my questions I posted in an earlier post that asked at what point should we expect people to speak English.
I bet there are many folks in the County that speak any number of languages. I suppose to be fair, we should have every language that is spoken in the County represented on every product sold in the County. We should also require the Government to provide documents in all of those languages. Otherwise it seems there is only an expectation that only hispanics are incapable of speaking English.
anonymoustoo,
I think the big changes came while I was at MWC. It is hard to remember back that far. Some time during my tenure there you no longer had to wear skirts to class. Pants became ok but I cannot remember if shorts were allowed. I know jeans were ok though. In those days the boys at UVA also wore coats and ties to class. The honor system also meant something and we were told there were no shades of honor. It was black or white. Honor code violations booted you out of school faster than greased lighning. I can also say that I only had one thing stolen the entire time I was there. You could lay your stuff down and it was there when you came back. Amazing.
There is much I do not miss from the good old days but the honor concept I do miss very much.
Linda Chavez is some sort of government functionary. She is on the board of a huge janitorial concern, thus her desire is to bring in more illegal aliens. Her company woundn’t make as much money if they hired citizens.
Come to think of it, who IS Linda Chavez? She makes it a point to mention that her family has been here since the 1700’s. The woman looks and talks like a zombie, with all due respect.
I can’t believe she could drive through Leesburg and not be repulsed by the sheer number of illegal aliens there.
Dolph,
You mean dungarees(I know jeans were ok though) don’t you?
COM,
(hands on hips) I am not THAT old!
monticup said on 10 Nov 2007 at 10:06 pm:
Come to think of it, who IS Linda Chavez? She makes it a point to mention that her family has been here since the 1700’s.
What side?
monticup - See my comments at 7:16 and 7:43 pm - a little bit about Linda. BTW, you diminish yourself when you comment on peoples’ looks. How do you know what a zombie looks like? (If I were mean, which I am not, I might throw in: Maybe you saw one in the mirror.) Good Night!
anonymoustoo said on 10 Nov 2007 at 8:58 pm:
It isn’t just Spanish on many of the instructions that come with lamps, furniture, etc.
?????????
Interesting article about illegal immigrants and civil rights. I knew that the EEOC filed cases based on the civil rights quotas for them. I never realized it had started in 1999, when Bill Clinton was President.
I do not believe we should apply these laws to illegal immigrants. I do believe that we should be treat them reasonably nice, but they did break at least one law. They should have the same rights as other criminals, not the same rights as citizens.
This is just one cut and paste, the article is interesting.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3827/is_199911/ai_n8861146
“What’s going on is that elements within the Clinton Administration want to cancel the government’s laws against illegal immigration” said K. C. McAlpin, deputy director of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). ‘They are trying to compel employers to hire illegal aliens, to fear not hiring or firing them.” He pointed to another recent development, a decision by Fannie Mae to help fund loans in Massachusetts for immigrants, regardless of whether they have green cards. “Here we have governmentsubsidized loans to criminals,”he said.”
Equality should be for everyone. English speaking children at every grade level should have an opportunity to learn another language. Bilingual skills are becoming very important in the workplace, yet the English native language speakers do not have an oppotunity to learn another language until highschool in most cases. That is not equal
As I read (and agree with most) the comments posted, I am concerned that we’re “not seeing the forest for the trees.”
Many of us are concerned about the formation of a Latino subculture, Latinos not learning English, the effect of NCLB on our schools and children, competition with those who are here illegally, and the negative effect of a different (Latino) culture upon local communities. Yes, those are real issues.
However, those issues are “the trees,” while there is a threatening “forest” — the quiet, behind the scenes formation of a “North American Union” that we know so little about and when finally implemented, will make all these “issues” moot.
Google “North American Union” — if that doesn’t scare your socks off, I don’t know what will.
freedom, I agree, the silence from Bush & all of Congress on this plan is deafening. Don’t forget the SPP connection, too. A few weeks ago, while Bush laughed off questions about his SPP meeting in Canada, Texans were continuing to battle the trans-corridor superhighway which cuts through their ranches - you don’t see much about that on the news. Google and see the map of the highway cutting through our country which allows the Mexican trucks to roll. I understand the inland ports would be under Mexican control. Did you know that some of our private roads are owned by foreign investors, including the Dulles Greenway? “On August 31, 2005, Australian firm Macquarie Infrastructure Group announced that they have paid $533 million to TRIP II to acquire its 86.7% ownership of the Greenway, and is negotiating with KB&R for the remaining ownership rights.” - Wikipedia
We are selling our country out from under us in many, many ways. Sometimes I feel it’s too late to save our Constitution - we have idiots in Washington that are greedy, power grabbing, & clueless.
Looks like Oklahoma is taking the lead in cracking down on illegals, not legal immigrants. The author of HS 1804 which went into effect November 1st after surviving the usual court battle wants to expand the law in the next legislation session. One of his ideas is not to issue a birth certificate to an “anchor” baby unless the parents can prove they are legal. His idea is for the hospital to issue an acknowledgement statement that the baby was born at that hospital and to request a birth certificate be issued from the nearest embassy to which country the parents belong to. The link to the story is http://newsok.com/article/3166428
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBmFrYWPoG8 discusses the NAFTA superhighway.
Yeahhhh for Oklahoma!!!
Dolph, GMC had UVa’s Honor Code too. And suits and ties and dresses disappeared from the dress code a year before I started there after students decided they’d cross-dress with the women wearing the suits and ties and men wearing the dresses (the code hadn’t made the distinction).
COM, there is no magic moment at which we can expect all immigrants to learn English. Some eighty year olds will never learn it . Most kids that go to kindergarten will know it soon after. Some immigrants will stick to their own communities. Others will realize that language skills will speed their moves up the economic and social ladder.
Fairfax County had a large influx of immigrants. The government didn’t print forms in all the languages these immigrants spoke but enough foreign-born employees usually were on hand that spoke something other than English (such as Polish, Russian, Vietnamese, Korean, etc.) I don’t know what Fairfax does now, but I’ll bet there’s an informal group of PW County employees that can do the same thing here.
If you think all Vietnamese immigrants melded into our society and didn’t stick to their own culture, you’d be mistaken or you’ve never visited Eden Center in Falls Church.
http://edencenter.com/?menuid=1
Anon, I’ve seen instructions in English, French, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese (?),and German on one lamp.
I think we should remember another way No Child Left Behind effects all of us. As Dolph has said NCLB decrees that every student subgroup including limited English proficiency and economically disadvantaged pass. When the passage rate percentages are not met the school is listed as failing. This hurts property values.
In some PWC school the percentage of ESOL students is 80 per cent or more. Some of these students’ parents are illiterate. Not just illiterate in English, some can’t read Spanish either. One of the greatest indicators of how well a student will perform is how much a child is read to and how many books are in the home. So teachers in the schools with heavy ESOL populations have a much steeper mountain to climb. OF COURSE THE TEACHER-STUDENT RATIO MATTERS. Teacher are wprking so hard to teach all the students in their care.
I worry about our non ESOL children. We are spending money to make the ESOL students bilingual. Meanwhile our children are the ones who are really the ones we should be worrying about. The students who only speak English will be the ones LEFT BEHIND. The jobs are going to go to the bilingual applicants.
To those discussing what organization Linda works for, i.e. is it the US EEOC, I had reported this on 11/09 at 10:02 pm:
Linda Chavez is chairman of the Center for Equal Opportunity, a non-profit public policy research organization in Sterling, Virginia.
http://www.stopunionpoliticalabuse.org/lindachavez/bio.htm
Even if it is the US Civil Rights Commission and Linda Chavez coming to PWC, here is what she had to say about that group a couple of months ago: :
“The Commission has no civil rights enforcement authority; those duties belong to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the Justice Department, the Department of Labor’s Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs, and other agencies that administer the provisions of the nation’s myriad civil rights laws.”
and this: “In recent years, the Civil Rights Commission has come under fire for being unnecessary, even counter-productive.”
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/LindaChavez/2007/09/07/why_we_still_need_a_civil_rights_watchdog
But if you want an idea of where she stands on the issue of illegal aliens, you only need to read this:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/LindaChavez/2007/05/25/latino_fear_and_loathing
this is coming from a person who has a long line of teachers in his family (including a couple who are superintendents of school districts in florida). Esol classes work great, but when the kids go home they are out of the schools reach and thus in the parents domain. If the parents dont speak english and support their childs english speaking by attempting to learn it themselves..they are not going to learn as well (if at all)
The saving grace is that Children are information sponges for the most part, the earlier they start learning english the better. It’s amazing how kids pick up stuff. I learned german as well as english as a child, however once I left my fathers house I didnt speak it anymore. I know enough to get around these days, but I’m hardly as literate as I was when I was 6 years old. It takes support from the parents to back up what’s learned at school.
Remove the illegal immigrant issue and some of the funds that are now being tasked to ESOL students can be re-tasks to ensuring our teachers are paid better and have the tools they need to teach better. In addition, it will keep down teacher-student ratio which is another bonus.
teachers dont get paid near enough to put up with the crap they put up with today…
Josh,
Amen.
Our schools are a tremendous draw for the illegals. We provide free meals, free school supplies, and coats to students who need them. Our charity is laudable. But, the kinder we are, the more cousins will be arriving to get in on the good life. All paid for by us.
It’s like attracting rats, isn’t it?
Freedom and Legal2,
Keep up the good work. I am glad to see someone asking and searching. I thought the very same thing as you put it “not seeing the forest for the trees.”
I doubt that any illegal alien family is drawn to an area because of the schools. Education usually is not a high priority. A kid can get free lunch any where in the United States. Jobs , and to a lesser degree, affordable housing, are what attract illegal aliens.
ElemTeacher on 11 Nov 2007 at 9:12 am:
Is it a true fact that the dropout rate of Latinos is 60%. I have seen that figure and if true, you are not going to find many of them (even though they may be bi-lingual) in jobs of any substance. They will end up doing the jobs their parents are now doing i.e. lawn service, hotel chambermaids and the food service industry.
I consider schools to be a draw as they have evolved into expensive day care centers with free medical care and free food. They have become very expensive enablers in the name of caring. The kids and parents don’t have to learn english to take advantages of the many services available, other than education, in our schools.
I agree, education is not the draw. Free care is.
PS …. and free care is most definitely not limited to the illegal population as a purpose for sending your children to school.
oldsoldier said on 10 Nov 2007 at 9:37 am:
Dolph,
An excellent example… thank you. Pragmatic is the operative word.
It takes time to learn our language. You don’t magically start speaking English when you are issued a green card. It takes time. Since a huge increase in the Hispanic population during this time in history is a fact of life, we need to make certain accomodations while they assimilate. To do otherwise is not realistic (and mean spirited).
Government is Government, Business is Business, and both respond to the market. Right now, a large percentage of the Market is speaking Spanish.
================================
You’re kidding…right. We are supposed to provide accomodations for 20+ million illegal hispanics. I prefer to support humans that respect my country and it’s laws.
How much time should it take? All of the hispanic speakers at the BOCS meeting in October that used an interpreter stated they’ve been here 20, 25, 28 years and still don’t speak English.
Dave in PWC on 11 Nov 2007 at 8:28 am:
I don’t think there is much anyone can do about the “anchor baby” situation unless the law is changed by Congress. Our elected officials (Web, Warner and Wolf have no record on where they stand on this subject. They avoid it like the plague and refuse to answer when the subject is asked of them. Many hospitals provide the forms for applying for Social Security numbers right after birth.
Bob Sentz — believe it or not some Americans are more interested in making a buck than being proud Americans. Make money or patriotism? Which do you think will win every time? Just look at Lockheed Martin - they snagged the Skorsky contract — LM will sell to the French who will sell to Iran. Skorsky wouldn’t sell to the French because of that. That was the Republican force in the senate that moved that contract.
Oh yeah ——
anonymoustoo on 11 Nov 2007 at 8:46 am:
re the Eden center. Boston had a similar area not too many years ago called Fanuel Hall market (now known as Quincy market.) This is located in the North End of Boston which is predominately Italian. Pushcart vendors selling vegetables and fruit lined both sides of the street for some distance as well as butcher shops and some restaurants. Most of this is gone today and I assume with the passage of time, the Eden center will gradually fade away. Then again, maybe not!
Dolph,
I disagree. I see how happy the ESOL parents are with the schools. I hear my students talking about how next month their cousins are coming. Schools are a draw. Of course jobs are a draw. But, I think parental happiness with the state of their children is a very important factor.
999
You would be amazed at how well ESOL students speak English after they have been in the program for 4 years or so. They speak without an accent and with few grammatical errors (they have learned their English at school).
I think these students will grow up and have quite an advantage over my own children who only speak English. What business wouldn’t want to hire someone who was bilingual? I wish someone would spend an extra $3,0000. a year on my kids.
Krusty said on 10 Nov 2007 at 11:54 pm:
How do you know what a zombie looks like?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Apparently you have led a sheltered life and never have gone to a horror movie or have seen the cult movie NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD. Plenty of zombies there!
I have no idea where around here a student can get free medical and daycare. Please cite specifics.
Elem.Teacher, surely you are kidding me. Their cousins might be coming but it isn’t to go to school. That is an aside. Their parents might be happy, but I am willing to bet they would be just as happy in Loudon or Fairfax also. It is all about jobs and money.
Most foreigners, regardless of country of origin, would prefer to live in a community where there is cultural commonality. They are away from their homeland. It is only natural that families try to stick together.
I’d like to see an extra $3,000 spent on my daughter too. ESOL classes should not be given to any student more than 2school years. That’s part of the problem there are students my daughter has gone to school with since Kingdergarten, and now in the 8th grade, and they are still taking some ESOL classes. This is ridiculous, and makes me wonder why so many years of ESOL. When I attended SMS in late 70’s/early80’s we had Cambodian students. These students were only in ESOL classes the first year they arrived and the next year were in classes with the rest of us.
So, why is this added expense of ESOL dragging on for years these days?
Dolph,
It is not just PWC schools that are so wonderful. I think the welcome mat is out almost everywhere. (Well, not in Oklahoma.) But, yes I think families come to be near family. I have had many students who are related to other ESOL families. Are they all illegal? I don’t know. I think many of them are. I didn’t mention medical care.
I still say schools are a major draw. Everyone is seeking a better life for their children. If tomorrow the invasion ended things would eventually work themselves out. BUT, next year we will have NEW ESOL students to bring up to par. My school does do a good job with ESOL students and parents are happy. Will more ESOL families come when their friends and relatives say that this neighborhood school is good? I think they will.
lafayette,
In a nutshell, federal guidelines. And those guidelines change from year to year so it is impossible for the average person to keep up with the changes.
Additionally, when you were in school there was no NCLB dictating who had to pass which tests.
Lafayette on 11 Nov 2007 at 11:43 am:
They keep coming, and coming and coming. Word is out, “Manassas is a great place to live.” Tell cousin Pedro, Ramon, Jose, Miguel, Estelle, et al to come live with us!
dolph on 11 Nov 2007 at 11:28 am:
The school nurses are being used for health issues and the schools are being used as babysitters/daycare. Listen to parents gripe when there is a “snow day” on what they are going to do with the kids. Not all parents but enough to count.
Dolph,
Thanks, NCLB what a joke that is. They started just after my daughter entered school. Yes, and feel classes are taught for the sole purpose of passing the SOL, and nothing beyond that.
Not to mention those almost monthy CMS tests.
dolph said on 10 Nov 2007 at 11:45 pm:
COM,
(hands on hips) I am not THAT old!
Sorry… My grammie uses that term instead of jeans. She is about as Southern as you can get.
Kids get free medical care from the ER. Kids of illegals who do not pay their fair share of taxes, get free day care from the public school system.
COM, there is no magic moment at which we can expect all immigrants to learn English. Some eighty year olds will never learn it . Most kids that go to kindergarten will know it soon after. Some immigrants will stick to their own communities. Others will realize that language skills will speed their moves up the economic and social ladder.
At least for the illegals and in many case legal immigrants they are doing much better economically just living here rather then in their Native Country. If an illegal is used to making $6.00 a day and then suddenly is making $6.00 dollars or more an hour their standard of living just shot up to the moon. Add that many illegals crowd into homes, which frees up even more of their tax free earnings, and you can understand why they are more then happy to come here. You can also understand why there is a worry they will not learn English and assimilate into the larger culture. They don’t have to because they are already leading a much better life, so where is the incentive to do so? They can live here and still send money back to their Native Countries.
Of course we do not know when an immigrant will learn English. However, we can speed that process up by not having a foreign language option except for public safety related issues, and even then it should be very limited. I do not consider going to home depot and buying a paint brush to be of a public safety nature.
COM,
My mother said dunagrees all the time. I don’t know that I ever heard her say jeans in her life. You know, of course, that I was kidding you. I always considered it an old fashioned term rather than southern. But then again, it took me years to figure out why bob wire wasn’t in the dictionary.
Dolph,
Ya, I know… not many folks use that term anymore.
Are you serious about bob wire?
COM,
Yes, serious. Probably a teenager before I realized that I was looking for the southern pronunciation rather the ‘real word.’ I honestly thought that was its real name. I guess high school straightened me out. Pathetic, eh?
kindergarten kids confront the minutemen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7YrkpKNB7M
I found this interesting when I came across it a week ago. I was surprised that they were allowed to do this, if in fact this was a public school or even a daycare center. I know its hard to tell by the video.
Dolph,
There is NO such thing as bob wire? I am laughing so hard…learn something new everyday..oppps
Assimilation? Did any of you listen to some of the people that spoke at PWC BOCS citizens time, when the funding for the resolution was being held? Some of those people claimed to have been here 20 or more years, yet still needed an interpreter.
I have worked in the public schools and have found that the majority of the Hispanic’s do not want to integrate with other people. Very few will stand or recite the pledge of allegiance. Many could care a less about receiving an education and will disrupt the class because they do not want to be there. With this said, there are non-Hispanic’s that do the same, at a lesser degree.
So, here we are spending extra money on ESOL and the kids could care a less.
I actually found the video on the Mexicans Without Borders website.
http://www.mexicanossinfronteras.org/
Nothing like having the liberal school system teach kids to hate the Country that has given them so much.
oldsoldier on 11/10 @ 8:17
Sorry for the huge gap, but I have just completed reading the
comments on this thread and feel compelled to respond to you
regarding your “Ugly American” comments . You, sir, are not
the only one here who has spent a substantial amount of time
living in foreign countries and as far as your depiction of the
“Ugly American” and the lack of interest in learning the relevant
languages, I believe that yours is far from being a reasonable
analogy of the Americans living in foreign countries and the
illegal aliens who have wrongfully crossed the borders and are
now living in our country. I too lived in several countries,
having been ordered there by my government, and was there
legally.
Your statement may be true that most Europeas laugh at our
arrogance, but we can laugh back, especially at the French, for
their yellow-bellied cowardice. I wonder if the Europeans were laughing when we were saving their asses?
As far as our having no right to deny those in their pursuits to
happiness, then illegals, ergo, have no right to deny any of us
OUR pursuits to happiness and a better life! I have served long and hard and earned that right; why should I be stripped of
my pursuit to happiness? What rights have they earned?
COM
“At least for the illegals and in many case legal immigrants they are doing much better economically just living here rather then in their Native Country. If an illegal is used to making $6.00 a day and then suddenly is making $6.00 dollars or more an hour their standard of living just shot up to the moon. Add that many illegals crowd into homes, which frees up even more of their tax free earnings, and you can understand why they are more then happy to come here. You can also understand why there is a worry they will not learn English and assimilate into the larger culture. They don’t have to because they are already leading a much better life, so where is the incentive to do so? They can live here and still send money back to their Native Countries.
Of course we do not know when an immigrant will learn English. However, we can speed that process up by not having a foreign language option except for public safety related issues, and even then it should be very limited. I do not consider going to home depot and buying a paint brush to be of a public safety nature.”
If someone is making six bucks an hour here, he/she is not wallowing in money, simply because the cost of living is so much higher here. If that person doesn’t have a good grasp of English, you can bet that his/her children eventually will. And I’d still prefer that a worker be able to understand the instructions on a paintcan or wiring diagram. It doesn’t harm me to have more than one language displayed at Home Depot.
I don’t have any kiddos in the school system, but I’m curious about those of you who do. Are you willing to pay higher taxes so that your children get the level of attention that you wish for them to have? If you had to choose between spending $2 mil a year on the schools and $2 mil a year rounding up perhaps 1000 “illegal aliens”, which would you choose and why? You know that no one will be picked up by the PWC police and deported that hasn’t broken a law and it may not happen even then.
Redawn and Dolph, I had to laugh about the “bob wire”. My New Yorker mother set me straight about that as soon as she heard me say it!
me-n-u,
I was under the impression that many of the speakers who chose to speak Spanish during the BOCS meeting did so perhaps because they wanted those outside to understand more easily (and possibly as a note of solidarity) than because they couldn’t speak English.
Regarding how long it takes to learn English. . . The younger you are the easier it is. My experience is that ESOL students who start in kindergarten usually are fluent in English by third grade. Unfortunately, the other children in the family won’t learn English till they get to kindergarten. And so even if a family has been here for years we will have to have all the children in the family (and usually they are large families) in the ESOL program. I lay part of the blame for this on the Spanish radio and television stations that make it possible to get along here and not speak English.
We have it backwards regarding when we offer a foreign language. High schoolers have a much more difficult time learning a language than kindergarten students.
I took Spanish in high school and can do little more than count to ten. There was no Spanish to hear outside of class and I soon forgot the little I did learn in class.
anonymoustoo,
That might be the most moronic excuse I have every heard. They spoke spanish because they were not able to speak English. Except of course for the lady who kept calling the bos members, jews.
Solving the ESL school problem will never include eradicating the immigrants (both illegal and legal) from the classroom. Wouldn’t a better approach be to get the kids to an English baseline so that the parents are recipients of the kids’ education? Maybe more money should be devoted to education. Regardless of the language of the students, the ballooning student population represents the out of control housing growth in Prince William County and the cities. More housing, more kids. We have a lower cost of living and more jobs than most of the area with proximity to Washington. Therefore, we are attracting a large hispanic population who are looking for jobs. I suspect that the motivation for moving to this area is not related to an assessment of available social services. Prince William County and the cities would rate much lower than Fairfax, Arlington, Alexandria and even Loudoun if that were the case. Something has to be done now about growth and about education. We cannot wait for more misguided and ineffective laws from local politicians with tunnel vision and focused solely on the criminal side of the issue in an effort to win elections by putting fear into the psyche of our uninformed citizens.
If someone is making six bucks an hour here, he/she is not wallowing in money, simply because the cost of living is so much higher here. If that person doesn’t have a good grasp of English, you can bet that his/her children eventually will. And I’d still prefer that a worker be able to understand the instructions on a paintcan or wiring diagram. It doesn’t harm me to have more than one language displayed at Home Depot.
I don’t have any kiddos in the school system, but I’m curious about those of you who do. Are you willing to pay higher taxes so that your children get the level of attention that you wish for them to have? If you had to choose between spending $2 mil a year on the schools and $2 mil a year rounding up perhaps 1000 “illegal aliens”, which would you choose and why? You know that no one will be picked up by the PWC police and deported that hasn’t broken a law and it may not happen even then.
Redawn and Dolph, I had to laugh about the “bob wire”. My New Yorker mother set me straight about that as soon as she heard me say it!
Will you just stop making excuses for those that do not want to learn English. The point to not having a paint can have a foreign language on it, is to send the message that one cannot get by living in America without learning English.
Yes, those people are flush with money. How do we know that? Because Mexico receives millions of dollars in remittances, and they are not the only Country to do so. If these folks do not have disposable income, how can they send such large amounts back home?
I would much rather spend the money on deporting illegals, since it will achieve to important goals- take away those that do not belong here, and it will also cause illegals to leave voluntarily once they realize the welcome mat has been removed.
Stop making excuses for illegals.
We are located in the Jeannie Dean district, which is one of the worst schools in the City, which is exactly why we spend extra money to send our son to a private school.
The suggestions you read here, CitizenofManassas, are not excuses. They are realistic plans to address a problem. To rely on the deportation of illegal immigrants as the solution to the problems with the schools is naive. I am glad that you send your son to private school because I do not want my children associating with other children whose parents are as narrow-minded as your are. You will find your milieu with others of the same mindset at whatever private school you have chosen.
What you might consider a “large amount” of disposable income is probably not exactly the same as someone who makes enough money to get by, lives with others like many others do in our community (check the want ads for those seeking roommates to make ends meet), does not own a car and uses the income to live on. As you pay for your private school, drive your big car (insurance and gasoline), eat out frequently, and enjoy purchasing what you want at will, the people you so eschew can get by on a lot less money. What you or anyone else choose to do with their income is none of your business or mine. I’m assuming that you are also paying for DSL, watching cable or satellite TV, etc.
I have lived in Manassas all of my life. I am embarrassed by what our community has come to represent: intolerance and ignorance.
patryot said on 11 Nov 2007 at 3:50 pm:
Yes, intolerance of lawbreakers who have turned this area and most of the U.S. into Mexico and Central America’s ghetto.
The American people are far from being ingnorant as you so state. They have finally making a stand on this invasion and the government will soon understand this fact.
me-n-u,
Assimilation is a MUST! That’s of course after you have come to this country legally. Respect our laws and our flag.
My question earlier with regards to why is ESOL dragging on for years? I’m questioning the teaching practices of the teachers, not the students. I guess anonymonus at 12:13 just wants to stir the pot.
Go ahead keep wasting your time anonymous@12:13pm!
Dolph
The school nurses are doing more than they should - as are the school social workers providing access to free therapy and medical. The SACC program waives fees for those in need. Free day care and free medical. Those that leave at 16 were just there for the free care they received daily until they were hold enough to leave and go to work full time. Again, this is not limited illegals.
Let’s not forget the money spent on daycare for babies of students. These schools are massive day care centers.
999
You are so right. We are taking stand against this invasion, and let’s watch that “red carpet” get rolled up too. We have had ENOUGH and will restore the quality of life around here. We now this mess didn’t happen overnight, and it won’t go away overnight either. However, the restoration has begun.
We the legal citizens will PREVAIL!
anonymoustoo on 11 Nov 2007 at 2:53 pm:
Then they should have been outside addressing their audience instead of the BOCS (most of whom do not speak Spanish.)
corr
We KNOW this mess….
If there is something wrong with the schools in the City of Manassas, why aren’t you addressing the city Council? Why do you all just complain and complain? There are no laws that can be passed by local government that will change the situation. Don’t you all get it? You have been misled by your politicians. You will see no laws come out of Richmond and any laws passed locally will not withstand federal scrutiny. You think it costs money to educate illegal immigrants? Wait until you see the legal fees when local ordinances that are focused on one group of individuals are enforced. This is not rocket science. Everyone identifies their own angst. Now, consider it an opportunity to solve the problem, not wait on unrealistic expectations from the pols and through the police. When comments are posted with such hatred, all credibility is lost.
Lafayette.
At PWC schools all ESOL students are tested each year and are labeled 1,2,3, 4 or monitor status. The 1’s are the very beginners. How fast a child progresses depends on the child. If a high school student comes here speaking no English he will be a level 1. (I think. I really only know first hand about elementary school.) I think most of our elementary students reach monitor status in 3 or 4 years. It must take much longer for older students. WHhen parents come in for a conference they often bring all their children and usually my students speak more fluently than their older brothers and sisters (if the family has only been here a couple of years.)
I don’t understand how a student would personally be in ESOL for 7 years.
One Voice: Please tell me where I can find the “massive day care centers”? I would be interested in this issue.
Patryot,
Stonewall Jackson was one of these schools as of last year. I’m not sure if they still have this year or not. Yes, day care centers in our public schools for the student parents. I personally think this is a waste of money, but I’m sure you think it’s “A-ok”. Have you really lived your entire life here?
What population is legal vs. illegal in PWC?
Does anyone have an answer? Is it 1%, 5%, 10%, 20%, 30%, etc?
Honestly, it sounds like a lot of people here painting all Latinos under the same brush. Is it little wonder why a Civil Rights commission is coming into town? As much as some may hate to admit, people no matter their citizenship do have rights in some fashion.
I’m against illegal immigration, but for those who so ardent in getting them out, what exactly constitutes an American? From the way I see it, a lot of those in the school system who are Hispanic, may be the children of illegal immigrants, which most may be indeed American citizens.
We have to find a more workable solution to this issue; alas, I don’t know how, but in the long run, I see nothing changing and I don’t think the illegal population will go anywhere.
The scary thing that may happen is that in a generation or two, the same kids who some are railing against on this blog will too have the right to vote. They will assimilate, take a little of the dominant culture, while maintaining a semblance of their own.
Does anyone here whine against the Asian community at large that live not too far away from PWC that seem to be insular? How do you know if they are legal or not?
Rather than go after people who want to work and make a better life for themselves, ask your representatives and senators why the population who been able to swell up with those are undocumented? Why are businesses and corporations who knowingly hire these people not being punished? What about George Bush who courted Latinos to get into office and yet has done little to stop the flow of the undocumented?
The culture and country has changed, and I really don’t think it will ever go back to the way it was. We either have to come to a common ground in this issue, or make it far more difficult for the undocumented to come into communities without resorting to xenophobia.
Patryot - Show me a school that isn’t. Are you kidding? The academics have bottomed out, the focus is on the slowest lowest denominator, we have social workers all over the place and to save money and to not hurt peoples feelings - honor programs and such are almost non-existant. We don’t even list honor rolls anymore in the high schools.
Find me a school that doesn’t provide free rides to and from school, free breakfast, free before/after school care, provide free therapy referrals, free medical referrals…..
This is not a new problem nor is it restricted to illegals.
My entire little life. Through segregation, integration, downtown revitalization, the boat people, etc., etc. I graduated from Osbourn High School. My children graduated from Osbourn High School. My spouse graduated from Osbourn High School. As for the day care for students, that predates the illegal immigrant issue.
Look: I really love Manassas. And I know when I look around, I see more and more people who are not like me. Some of those people, the minority, are illegal immigrants. I can’t identify legal from illegal. There are so many families. And just like all families, they want the best quality of life that they can find. I understand the resentment in the community but I cannot abide by the constant sense that everyone is illegal and should be routed in the middle of the night to be deported. It’s just not so. I think for my community to really improve the quality of life for all of us, we need to face the reality of living with the immigrant community in a constructive and positive manner. I sometimes think that the real hard-core haters like the divisiveness of the current situation.
According to the PWC Schools 2008 Adopted budget:
27.5 MILLION and 397 FTE’s on ESOL programs
7.9 MILLION and 72 FTE’s on Gifted programs.
44 MILLION and 888 FTE’s on Transportation.
Enough said on ESOL/Gifted Honors
Re: Transporation. I never went to a school that provided free transportation. My son never went to a school that provided free transportation until he went to FPHS. Millions of average working joe’s and jane’s drive their kids to school - not all rich people go to private schools, particularly private church schools. Just think about $44 Million on taxi service for parents. Sorry, I just can’t support that.
I am not focused only on illegals. I grew up in a little town just like Manassas and can empathize with you. I don’t think the only problem in our schools are illegals.
Frankly, I can support ESOL (time certain!) before I can transportation - this is likely to be widely unpopular, but THINK about it!!!
Patryot,
All right, my mom’s an Osbourn graduate too, and before your time I’m sure. I do have older sister maybe about your age she attended schools in the city and county.
Oh, day care centers, all students benefit from that. None of us knows who legal or illegal. However, I’m aware all students are entitled to an education, and I accept what the Supreme Court says on the matter. I am opposed to free meals, free day care center, etc. for illegal aliens and anyone else that doesn’t meet the guidelines for such benefits. All people take advantage of these programs.
I believe you are like myself and love Manassas. Why else would we still be here?It was a great place to grow up that’s for sure, and on this I’m sure we both agree. I do not consider myself or many on here “haters”. I think the legal citizens have just simply had enough of sitting back, and being complacent, and are now going to make their legal voice heard, and take action to help restore the quality of life. I’m gravely concerned with the public health and safety issues. I write about them all the time. I am a very opendminded person, and just want to see some change for the better. I think you can respect that, can’t you?
One Voice,
Here in WestGate you don’t ride the bus until you go off to Stonewall Jackson Senior High. There are many walking schools in the county. At least up here in the Western end.
I see you are a “voice of reason” today as usual:)
patryot said on 11 Nov 2007 at 3:50 pm:
The suggestions you read here, CitizenofManassas, are not excuses. They are realistic plans to address a problem. To rely on the deportation of illegal immigrants as the solution to the problems with the schools is naive. I am glad that you send your son to private school because I do not want my children associating with other children whose parents are as narrow-minded as your are. You will find your milieu with others of the same mindset at whatever private school you have chosen.
What you might consider a “large amount” of disposable income is probably not exactly the same as someone who makes enough money to get by, lives with others like many others do in our community (check the want ads for those seeking roommates to make ends meet), does not own a car and uses the income to live on. As you pay for your private school, drive your big car (insurance and gasoline), eat out frequently, and enjoy purchasing what you want at will, the people you so eschew can get by on a lot less money. What you or anyone else choose to do with their income is none of your business or mine. I’m assuming that you are also paying for DSL, watching cable or satellite TV, etc.
I have lived in Manassas all of my life. I am embarrassed by what our community has come to represent: intolerance and ignorance.
Narrow minded? ignorant? You have the nerve to say that about other people and it is you who support law breakers? I feel ashamed that a town that once knew wrong from right now has people living in it that does not understand the basics of the rule of law.
I send my son to private school so that he can get a good education and a better one then he can get at Jeannie Dean.
Again, if people are able to send money back to the native Countries, they are not hurting. If they are hurting, they should not have broken the law to come here. They are not paying for their mistakes, we are.
The last I checked, it was not against the law to drive a large car, have cable tv, etc. However, it is against the law to come here illegally, and have a job.
What is the penalty for speeding? A fine and points on your driving record.
What is the penalty for coming here illegally? Deportation.
Unless of course you want to treat illegals differently from everyone else. Though, you say you just want them to be treated like everyone else. Well, you can’t have it both ways.
People do address the City Council and school board about this situation. I do agree illegal immigration is not the only issue with the City schools. However, it is an issue.
Patryot
Fair and Balanced
I urge you to watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbfhOZs6X7g
What percentage of the school system is Hispanic? Just curious.
As well, could a lot of the problems with the school growth be with the affordable housing available (i.e. - families who move out further into the burbs and Va because of home/housing prices closer into D.C. and more expensive zip codes?)
Those darn Skins lost!
Fair and Balanced said on 11 Nov 2007 at 4:55 pm:
What population is legal vs. illegal in PWC?
Does anyone have an answer? Is it 1%, 5%, 10%, 20%, 30%, etc?
Honestly, it sounds like a lot of people here painting all Latinos under the same brush. Is it little wonder why a Civil Rights commission is coming into town? As much as some may hate to admit, people no matter their citizenship do have rights in some fashion.
I’m against illegal immigration, but for those who so ardent in getting them out, what exactly constitutes an American? From the way I see it, a lot of those in the school system who are Hispanic, may be the children of illegal immigrants, which most may be indeed American citizens.
We have to find a more workable solution to this issue; alas, I don’t know how, but in the long run, I see nothing changing and I don’t think the illegal population will go anywhere.
The scary thing that may happen is that in a generation or two, the same kids who some are railing against on this blog will too have the right to vote. They will assimilate, take a little of the dominant culture, while maintaining a semblance of their own.
Does anyone here whine against the Asian community at large that live not too far away from PWC that seem to be insular? How do you know if they are legal or not?
Rather than go after people who want to work and make a better life for themselves, ask your representatives and senators why the population who been able to swell up with those are undocumented? Why are businesses and corporations who knowingly hire these people not being punished? What about George Bush who courted Latinos to get into office and yet has done little to stop the flow of the undocumented?
The culture and country has changed, and I really don’t think it will ever go back to the way it was. We either have to come to a common ground in this issue, or make it far more difficult for the undocumented to come into communities without resorting to xenophobia.
One Voice said on 11 Nov 2007 at 4:57 pm:
Patryot - Show me a school that isn’t. Are you kidding? The academics have bottomed out, the focus is on the slowest lowest denominator, we have social workers all over the place and to save money and to not hurt peoples feelings - honor programs and such are almost non-existant. We don’t even list honor rolls anymore in the high schools.
Find me a school that doesn’t provide free rides to and from school, free breakfast, free before/after school care, provide free therapy referrals, free medical referrals…..
This is not a new problem nor is it restricted to illegals.
The media focuses only on hispanic illegals. The defenders of illegals only use hispanics as an example of who might be harmed by the enforcement of laws.
I think it is your side that uses hispanics as a scape goat.
The fact the majority of those that spoke out against the County resoluton were hispanics is another indication that the majority of illegals are in fact hispanics. Note, I am not saying every hispanic is illegal or every illegal is hispanic, just that the majority of illegals happen to be hispanic.
Even in the Northeast were you run into lots of illegals that are Irish or other Europeans, you still find a large number of hispanic illegals.
I don’t have a problem going after companies that hire illegals. However, that is only part of the solution, since not every illegal works, so it is sort of hard to track down all illegals just by focusing on businesses.
If the illegals wanted to just come here and work, they should have done so the right way. That is a silly defense for law breaking.
How about the kid who stole a car in order to not have to walk far. Well, gee all I wanted to do was not have to walk far. Should we excuse his law breaking because he wanted to cut corners?
Fair and Balanced said on 11 Nov 2007 at 5:33 pm:
What percentage of the school system is Hispanic? Just curious.
In the City it is right around 40%
C of M - The law is always grey. I don’t find people who work, no matter legal or not, and seemingly mind their own business on the same level as a bank robber, psychopath or murderer.
Let’s say we deport those who have children or families, what happens to their kids?
My point is that although it would be prudent to stop this problem, other issues may arise.
I think the community at large is stuck with the issue unless the federal government takes the bull by the horns, or there is a compromise done.
I feel like I just landed in a foreign country, rather than an area I have lived in almost 4 decades. Help me out here. All are school related questions.
Free counselling services? Do you mean guidance counsellors?
Free after-school care? Where?
Free day care, other than for student parents? Where?
Free transportation? That is just a part of all school systems, everywhere in Virginia. Public schools provided transportation when I was a kid, which was back in the dark ages.
Free medical care? Where?
Free meals? Everywhere in the United States for over half a century. Fed funded. Low income not verified, I grant you.
Honors programs? There are IB programs all over the place in the county, including Stonewall Middle and Stonewall High School.
End of questions for the moment. I really would like to know where some of those things are occurring because I am unaware of them.
Comments:
The Hispanic population in Prince William County Schools is probably right around 20%. You can extrapolate this data from the SOL results. I did not do so, I guestimated from memory.
You really cannot compare money spent on ESOL students and gifted students. One is a condition of location and the other is a condition of birth.
Lafayette,
You know one of my favorite expressions is pay me now or pay me later.
The student-parent day care facilities are just that, an effort to keep young women in school so they graduate. Most welfare recipients are women with children. The more education women receive, the more independent and self-reliant they will be.
When I was in high school, if you got pregant, your education was over. I, for one, am glad to see society taking a different turn.
Dolph
My child is limited to where they go to school. He would have to go to Gar-Field to get an IB program. That is not all over the place. Schools have either AP or basic classes unless you go to Stonewall/Gar-Field or Potomac/Brentville. Neither of the two that we are permitted to attend are likely options in this household simply due to the issues at the schools from which we can choose. Why would I send my child to the Cambridge Program at Potomac where the SAT scores are below 900???????
I don’t care how long transportation has been around, I simply don’t agree with it. Just because it’s always been that way is not a good reason to continue it. I believe parents should drive their children to school. Just a personal belief - but to the tune of $44 Million, I wish more people agreed. It’s not like we live in Kansas and have to drive 55 miles to school.
Guess I am more for personal responsiblity than what I’ve seen in the public schools. The only thing they don’t provide are sleeping quarters from what I can see. If your child gets pregnant, maybe you the parent should assume some responsibilty for your child and grandchild rather than making me the taxpayer pay for the day care. There is always adoption. Might not be best for the child/parent but might be best for the baby.
New Horizens program in the HS provides free therapist for drug intervention This is an expensive program. Also provided are free mental health therapy for students and parents, free referrals for medical care (especially for those without insurance) and so on.
SACC provides free day care for indigent families.
They are all occuring in PWC Schools.
My point to all this is that the schools are assuming parental responsibility if is is willingly ceded and it is not only by illegals. We could save a lot of money if parents would assume the responsibility of being the primary caretakers AND educators of their children.
What does condition of location and condition of birth mean with regard to comparing ESOL expenditures and staff resources to gifted expenditures and staff resources? I did not understand that?
Dolph,
Free medical care can be found at the local ER. The free lunch program has been expanded to free breakfast(year round in some areas).
If one is not paying taxes, I suppose you can consider it not only free transportation, daycare(schools) but also education.
One Voice, I believe that Dolph was referring to “nature or nurture”…one or the other (or both) MUST be superior in order to produce a gifted child.
Okay, I’m a little liberal in my thinking of how parents should raise children and the transportation issue - I can tone it down some. I’m just amazed at the public school system. This is my first experience and I absolutely can’t get over the gross departure from their mission and the resulting cost to the taxpayer.
Regarding gifted - guess I meant to include honor children which usually takes hard work and high expectations based on demonstrated ability.
Corr……..Regarding gifted - guess I meant to include honor children which usually takes hard work and high expectations based on demonstrated ability……..
regardless of where you were born or what your parents did.
One Voice,
From my morning walks I’d guess that most parents don’t have time to get in rush hour traffic to drive their kids to school. I’d hate to think of any more traffic on Rt. 234 in the morning! Usually as soon as the school bus picks the kids up from the bus stops, the parents leave for work. You’d be asking Mom or Pop to leave even earlier each day to take the kids to school. Most kids in my area are not within walking distance of a school.
When I was a kid, I took the bus to the county schools and my mother had to drive us when we later switched to city schools. It was an inconvenience for her even then in a rural area so she and her friends formed a carpool.
Dolph,
My day wasn’t that long ago, and girls that got pregnant had to find a babysitter for their child like a working woman would have to. Or there was the girl who might have a family mother provide day care, not the schools. These girls went on to graduate too. I don’t like day care centers in our schools.
Students are in school to LEARN!!! Not for day care. We will have to agree to disagree on this perhaps.
anonymoustoo - well the best arguement is that there would be more traffic on the roads!!
I still don’t agree with a $44 million dollar transportation tab, that’s all. I had a 50 minute commute to work (office 7 miles away) when I drove my son and picked up the other family for 13 years. I left early every day. I never thought it was an inconvenience to drive my son to school. I drove every morning for 13 years and the other family drove home. She was only too delighted to let my son stay with her for the hour until I arrived home. She was not a morning person and thought she was getting the better end of the deal.
Barter. It’s a better way to live.
I am just appalled at how far beyond the mission the public school system is. Just appalled. I absolutely don’t support tax dollars paying for daycare in school for student’s children. That is really outside the mission.
What Gone Fishing said on 11 Nov 2007 at 2:17 pm - “As far as our having no right to deny those in their pursuits to happiness, then illegal’s, ergo, have no right to deny any of us OUR pursuits to happiness and a better life! I have served long and hard and earned that right; why should I be stripped of
my pursuit to happiness? What rights have they earned?”
Re the above… actually… you’re wrong. The supreme court ruled in Plyler vs. Doe that everyone (including illegal immigrants) is entitled to equal protection under the 14th amendment of the Constitution. You can disagree with it; however, it’s the law (and I hear this group likes to follow the rule of law).
Happy Veterans day.
One Voice, I arranged for my kids to go to school in Nokesville (BDHS, my own alma mater), but I did drive them everyday…to, from, and school activities. I often spent more than 6 hours in a day (often more with additional school activity runs) on the road to accomplish this because of traffic, with all the back and forth (many times a one-way trip that should have taken a half hour at most turned into a 1 1/2 hour ordeal). I was only able to do this because my husband and I (after discussing it with the kids) decided that one of us would always be home with the kids to take care of things like this (we asked them, “Do you want a big house and all the toys or do you want one of us at all times?”). Not many families are able to do this nowadays…or willing to do it. We just happen to be lucky that our kids appreciated what it meant.
Old Soldier - Happy Veterans Day to you!
You made me laugh out loud re: following the rule of law.
I think we have moved to the abuse of the public school system and how far they have expanded beyond their mission. As I have said, there are other things I would cut before ESOL. That said, I think there is a parental obligation to agree to speak English at home and encourage English so their child will suceed. It is really in their best interest. ESOL needs to have some performance measurement and committment from parents and students old enough to understand. Groups like MWB and Nancy Lyall would better serve the community by encouraging assimilation. There are Aisan groups that do this.
That darn old Constitution gets in the way of things, doesn’t it? I think everyone understands, just doesn’t agree. There will likely be a challenge at some point.
AW Cheney -
We only have one child, but my husband and I also agreed that we would do without certain things so that our son would not be negatively impacted if I continued to work locally in a low paying job. With one child you can go overboard on hovering….
We spent most winter weekends driving around Northern VA to basketball games, most of the spring again driving around Northern VA to baseball. I drove constantly.
You hit the nail on the head when you said:
“Not many families are able to do this nowadays…or willing to do it. We just happen to be lucky that our kids appreciated what it meant”
I think more are unwilling or even more afraid to try. It is scary.
$950,000 homes in Hoadly, indeed.
OS,
Funny how you are being selective about the rule of law. However, there is just one problem with you attempt to say gotcha. Yes, illegals can use the public school system. However, what is the punishment for being here illegally? Deportation. So, we can really take care of the problem of illegals in schools by enforcing our current immigration laws.
You know, a lot of people (including true conservatives) don’t believe in “public schools”. They are just another example of something that private enterprise could provide in response to the market. Why exactly (as a point of discussion) does anyone expect others to pay for their children’s education? Harsh… but in some circles (like the Cato Institute and other Conservative think tanks) a question that merits discussion. It’s something to think about.
(IMHO) Government is too big and too intrusive. The Federal Government gets involved in too many things that should be left to states and the local level (Jefferson’s original vision and the reason for the 10th amendment). Many of the “services” that we would like to deny illegal immigrants should be turned off in general and/or shut down. They are just more examples of “big Government” trying to solve our problems.
Lafayette,
To not provide a day care system within the school means girls dropping out of school. They don’t work and don’t have the money to pay for daycare. The alternative would be for them to drop out of school and work at a low skill job and still qualify for federal subsidized day care and continue a life of poverty.
The difference in both alternatives can mean a life of being on welfare or being self sufficient because you finished your education. Both solutions cost the tax payers. My question is, which costs us more in the long run?
Many kids just do not have the support systems at home. Many parents aren’t in the position to support their kids or to fill in as a babysitter should they become premature grandparents. And our kids certainly don’t always make the best choices for themselves. When you are in high school you are immortal.
Yea we will have to agree to disagree. I am the eternal pragmatist.
Dolph,
Well, I don’t disagree with all you say. I just don’t like it.
Friends? Have a coke and a smile. The machine is still there:)
One Voice,
I am sort of stunned. I guess I never thought of anyone objecting to the transportation system. If PWCS have 72,000 students and lets say that every family has 2 kids, we are talking 36,000 more cars on the road twice a day. More traffic, more gasoline, are not what we need, especially in this area. I am a believer in mass transit. This would include the dreaded yellow school bus. Most of my school years were in public school, so this is just something I accept.
Specialty programs including the IB program. Shuttle buses are run from all the middle schools. Not sure about the elementary schools now. They used to run some shuttles from them also. The down side of this is having to get up at the crack of dawn. Now, it appears to me that specialty programs are being used as thinly veiled bussing…to bring more capable kids into schools with lower scores to help boost scores. How sinister of me for thinking such thoughts.
I am unfamiliar with those other programs. They are not in all schools. I think all after school care has a price tag. I do not think the schools are providing free medical treatment for anyone. Correct me if I am wrong but I sure have not been familiar with this practice.
I do know of the drug programs. Most of funding comes from grants, the feds or the state. Free lunch and breakfast are a way of life. Most localities lack the resources for income verification.
I don’t see the schools as trying to usurp parents as much as I see them trying to take up the slack for the lack of parenting. Again, I am probably jaded. It is all a big balancing act, trying to do the dance between community needs, and the mandates of the state and federal government. There are more layers between the student and the project than on an onion.
Opposite opinions can provide balance Balance is good. Ony one way is bad.
I don’t disagree with all you say either. Just think the scale of reasonable has been tipped.
lafayette,
But of course. And as you know, our friendship as never been predicated on total agreement of issues. Look how we survived the election.
And for the record, there is a lot out there I might not like but see the need for. Oh where to start……
OS,
Basically, public education exists to keep from dumping even more dumb asses into society. It doesn’t always achieve this goal but think how many more there would be out there were it not for public schools. Sorry, I am sort of out of fancy words tonight. Thought I would just cut to the chase on this one.
Dolph
I just think the Public Schools have expanded beyond their mission. Whether or not the myriad of services they provide outside their primary mission of formal education are necessary to the community is not the issue I intend to raise - it’s why they are in the schools.
The schools have picked up on the gap created by parents willingly transferring responsibilities to the schools. I fault the school systems for doing that. (of course the parents, more) Government (taxpayer funded) entities should not expand their missions without referendums. That is the problem with the feds.
As to your last post, I am tired of paying for the dumb asses. Someone should just tell them they are wasting their time and my money. They are dragging the system down. As I said long ago tonite, I can get to ESOL as part of the mission long before some other things. Regarding transportation, I will never get it having never had it.
But $44Million????
One Voice,
You make some valid points. I guess my bottom line is probably that we are going to be paying for dumb asses any way you cut it. My take is probably the ounce of prevention approach in hopes it will work. I also am enough of a realist to know that it doesn’t always work.
If I were Queen, I would throw anyone out of school at age 12 who didn’t behave or do what they were supposed to do academicially (within their capability). They would go to boot camp for a year and do manual labor taking care of infastructure etc. They would get paid a minumal amount of money for their efforts. At the end of the year, they would be allowed to apply for re-entry to the school system. If they were re-admitted, they would sign a contract so they knew exactly what expectations were. If they screwed up, back to boot camp to work for next to nothing for the betterment of others until age 18, then they would get booted out with only low level skills.
In other word, why take up everyone else’s time. Built in 2nd chance if they are willing to try again. I would like to see education become a privilege rather than a right.
Do I sound like I am contradicting myself? Perhaps I am but the first feeling comes from reality and the Queen dream is simply a fantasy.
Dolph-A Queen, now that’s a fantasy if I ever heard one.(smiley)
West Gate Witch,
Definitely a big fantasy but it gets rid of people who are just taking up space and keeping others from learning. I doubt anyone is going to appoint me queen though. My plan is a bit radical and I am sure it wouldn’t pass constitutional muster.
I would like to be the Queen’s cousin. Less stress; always around.
Agree with the plan. Might suggest a seperate school for the less enthused that would combine work/education. Think it used to be school for bad boys or reform school. Now the candidates are “mainstreamed”. Stupid word. Expensive word
What dolph said on 11 Nov 2007 at 11:35 pm
Dolph,
I like the way you think. We have created an “entitled” generation. I’m tired of paying for it through taxes (when I could be investing my money creating jobs, etc.)
I’ve always liked Military service as one route to a better life. Perhaps we should start accepting men and women at age 16 and offering high school in service (which they do now via the GED) and perhaps college (in service… the route I took… or a new GI bill) as part of the deal (vice sending everyone to High School on our nickle). We certainly need the troops.
Sure, it isn’t fair… but who said life is “fair” (and we should pay for it).
R B,
The number of illegal immigrants didn’t come across the border on Bush’s watch alone. They came across on Clinton’s watch as well. They came across on Bush Sr’s watch as well. They came across on Cater, Regan, and others. This problem didn’t come about in the last 8 years. Quit blaming Bush for everything when he didn’t have control over the borders before he came into office.
Dolph,
I have been for military service after HS for a long time. Put these kids in the military, learn a trade and discipline (which they DO NOT get at home) which will help them be productive in the real world. It solves 2 problems; 1) the low numbers in the military, which is used for the common defense and 2) it helps give these kids guidance at a time when they have the tough choices of acting like an adult and BEING an adult. Imagine how low the prison population would be if we were to put this into place?
I served my country in the Navy for 5 1/2 years. I am proud of my service and it provided me with the discipline and motivation to succeed in life!! Anchors aweigh!!!!
What /\/\3|)ic 64 said on 12 Nov 2007 at 9:38 am
He didn’t create the problem; however, he hasn’t done anything about it in the last eight years either.
OS,
I didn’t see your post when I posted to Dolph. You are wanting them earlier than I do!!! This could be a good thing as well. They learn a trade and provide a service to their country. I used my IL veterans Scholarship (4 year degree) to better myself!! They can too!!
I agree we have fostered an entitled generation. My mom teaches school in IL. She sees it all the time. The students want the A, but they do not want to work for it.
I agree ;-), however, neither did Clinton or Bush SR.
One Voice,
I’m with you I’d like to be the Queen’s cousin too.
“Mainstreamed” stupid, expensive, and DISRUPTIVE too!!
Do you think the Queen would let us borrow the “crown jewels” from time to time? I’m talking only special occassions
I liked the plan too!!
Lafeyette,
I know a few that NEED the Queen’s crown jewels!!!
If my plan goes through, you may all borrow the crown and the jewels. Imagine, a school full of kids who maybe don’t WANT to learn but know that this is what is expected of them and they comply.
20% of the kids make up 80% of the problems. I am all in favor of a TOAD free zone!
/\/\3|)ic 64 and Old Soldier,
Last I heard, the military had some standards. I am not sure the military would want or take some of the toads I am talking about. They would spend all their time in the brig.
Dolph, I am for S.T.A.R.F.A.G., which simply is Selective Termination And Reassignment For Affected Groups.
If you can not comply with the school rules and have been given AMPLE chances, you most likely will not be able to function in a productive manner in society, so termination is appropriate. If you have gone through the boot camp and can grasp the concept, then you are reassigned back into society.
Of course, before everyone gets their undies in a twist, this is SARCASM!!!!!
I am quite aware that we can not kill people, but I am just going along with the fantasy that Dolph is going to be Queen (c:
Doph, you would be surprised at how the “Brooklyn bunch” was dealt with in my boot camp company. They came in with their attitudes, but were quickly schooled in the ways of the Navy.
I agree that some may not fit the military standards, for which my proposal for S.T.A.R.F.A.G. would solve the issues!! (c;
The military is an “equalizer”. Everyone is equal going into “boot camp”. With the right leadership, a new recruit from a rough background gets a shot at (no pun intended) a new life.
I would support a French Foreign Legion model… six years of clean service (instead of the Legion’s twelve) and any criminal record is expunged. You get an in-service education, learn a trade, and come out an honored veteran who truly gets a fresh start. The alternative is probably a taxpayer stay in prison or getting shot in the streets.
Would we want to extend this offer to illegal aliens? Six years and a green card or citizenship? but That is a Foreign Legion model… accept anyone who passes some minimum set of qualifications.
By the way, Happy Veterans day to my fellow Veterans and their families.
Do NOT equate the Civil Rights Movement of the 60’s with ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. Illegal Immigrants have broken laws while those in the 60’s were here from the beginning.
THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE 2!
Dolph
Toad free zone? I want an illegal alien free zone!
Since I get to be Queen today in Fantasy land, you all maybe have your wishes! Who wants a few crown jewels to go with them.
WGW,
There will be some overlap there if I get my toad free zone.
I’ve always heard it said… you have to kiss a lot of toads.-lol
Some of these you will not want to kiss, Lafayette. You might want to swap out the S key for the L key though.
S.T.A.R.F.A.G sounds like a plan. I do love attitude adjustment but if that doesn’t work, I am glad you vets have a back up plan.
Well folks, have your fun…but the idea for a separate school for ESOL students was one I had a long time ago, and I believe it could be workable. Dolph and I have batted that one around before.
AWCheney,
I’m all in favor of separate school for ESOL students too. I think you and I may’ve mentioned OP. This was several months ago I think.
BTW-I like the fun, it’s a nice change.
Please, let Dolph continue to be Queen for a day
I agree Angry!!! This isn’t about civil rights, which are rights you gain by entering the country LEGALLY!!!!
The illegals are quick to call anyone who is for enforcing the law a racist. Seems they want their cake and the ability to eat it too. Didn’t they do something recently that could be defined as racist? Boycotting businesses that were not Hispanic owned?
If they would assimilate, they would have fewer problems because they would not stand out as much. It isn’t about the color of their skin or the accent they may have, it is the BLATANT disregard to assimilation.
Who says the Hispanics have the market cornered on illegal immigration? When I say illegal immigrant I mean anyone here illegally.
Medic64,
Well said. I agree.
I don’t care where on the globe these “illegal invaders” have come from. I wish some would get a grip on the fact race has NOTHING to with this issue.
ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL!!
You all rant. You rave. You have no answers that are credible and realistic. (I think you’ve identified the problem.)
The answer is school vouchers.
Corr ** the answer is school vouchers or home school. With the former you have to drive
That’s not a solution. It reminds me of when Prince George County Virginia decided to close the public schools rather than integrate. All kids went to private schools. Anything else?
Contested races for School Board?
Actually patryot - The only soultion is for a credibile acadamian to get into the process and make changes. From all appearances, educators are a closed bunch and rarely listen to somone without many years of educational experience and appropriate degrees under their belt. In PWC there are traditonal schools. Why are there only two or three?
Probably a bigger issue in attracting a talented administrator is money. A creative administrator isn’t coming to this area unless there is a reason to come. What do you mean: “traditional schools”?
Here are the vision and mission statements from Porter Traditional School website. There are two of these schools in PWC - Porter and Pennington. Students have to apply and there is usually a lottery due to the overwhelming number of children that want to attend. These are old-fashioned grammer schools in that the grade range is K-8. They have a strict dress code, must promise to do their homework and must accept the discipline code that is enforced. The premise is that all will excel to the best of individual abilities.
Now, why are there only two and why no High School? Why is this not the norm?
Vision
Porter Traditional students will be life-long learners and responsible decision makers. They will be eager and equipped to utilize information resources and empowered with critical thinking skills to become effective problem solvers. Porter students will become active and valued citizens in their respective 21st century communities.
Mission
Porter Traditional School believes that all children can be successful. Our powerful combination of integrated instruction and high expectations, accompanied with collaborative parental involvement and a safe, nurturing environment will work in unison to enable our students to achieve academic excellence. This teamwork approach will also promote a positive attitude for students, faculty and family and foster a spirit of community. Porter will possess a positive atmosphere where every student is motivated to do his personal best.
Our students will thrive in a multi-modal environment where there is an assortment of ways to display knowledge. Students will be exposed to a wide variety of experiences that will enable them to be equipped and secure about becoming risk takers and problem solvers. Our focus on community service will aid our students in becoming productive, resourceful and responsible citizens in their neighborhood environs.
The staff at Porter will educate, empower and provide for our students to actively engage with the curriculum. Our staff will constantly strive to meet each child’s needs, as we know that a cookie cutter approach won’t suffice. The Porter staff will build a sound educational foundation for our students through utilizing technology and many strategies.
Education is currently completely driven by the Virginia SOL (Standards of Learning) period. Believe me when I tell you that. Getting ALL subgroups to score high enough to keep the school off the “failing” list. The minimum passing score goes ever upward until eventually you will be a failure if 100 per cent don’t pass.
Elem - isn’t that the first stab at performance measures for teachers? I sense you don’t think it’s the right approach. What do you think of the traditional schools?
I have no knowledge of what it takes to throw together a curriculum that would address a myriad of talent in one room. But I know what I’d like for my child.
My son is excelling in Algebra - I asked the teacher if there was any addtional work he could do, not for credit but for a challenge and/or enrichment. Very nice woman, but she looked at me like I’d lost my marbles. I dropped the subject and moved on.
One Voice,
Do you have a web based email address that doesn’t divulge your real name? I know you want to maintain your anonymity. If you have such an email address, please email me. Dolphin_moon@excite.com
I want to share some things with you regarding your posts that I don’t want to post here. Crown secrets..yea that’s the ticket.
Just a thought AN NOT thought out…possible idea…what about a new lottery in addition too, to help out with deportation, transportation, etc….it already happens with the schools?
I sure buy enough!
The SOL was imposed upon us. The curriculum is a mile wide and an inch deep. Preparing students for the social studies and science SOLs seem like preparing your students for a game of trivial plursuit. Third grade particularly has it rought because children are tested on material that they had in first and second grade., in addition to what is supposed to be covered in third grade. Guess how much children remember about what they studied last year or the year before. Go to” solpass.org” and then link to Jefferson Labs. Jefferson Labs has questions from past SOL tests in science and math. Social studies tests don’t get released much for some reason. Old reading tests can be seen from the SOLpass link.
I have never taught at one of the “traditional schools.” One of our worst discipline cases got in to Porter. I think he got kicked out.
I think most home school students do well. Who wouldn’t with one on one tutoring? I do think children would be prone to have gaps in their knowledge because we all have areas in which we may not be that strong in. In a school, one teacher’s weakness will hopefully be counterbalanced by another teacher on down the line.
Public school education has to take in everyboddy. Public schools can’t say , “Sorry, that child is too attention deficient to be in our school.” We just have to deal with it the best we can.
I start worrying about my students passing the SOL test on the teacher work days before the school year even starts. By spring time I will be having nightmares about it. I’m serious, actual nightmares. The other teachers at my school say they do too.
Would I recommend private school? No. The few students I have received that come from a private school have been below the level that most of my students are working. Public schools have libraries, computer labs, and extra help for struggling students.
Veteran teachers tell the new teachers that teaching school used to be fun. There was time for art projects.
Pray for us who are in the trenches. Teachers are working very hard and the students are too. If your school passed the SOL tests and has a high ESOL population your teachers are performing miracles.
A song comes to mind:SENDING OUT AN SOS…….message in the bottle….
SOS= SAVE OR STUDENTS, SAVE OUR SCHOOLS, SAVE OUR SOVEREIGNTY,SAVE OUR SORRY ASS? SAME OLE SONG AND DANCE, SAME DAY DIFFERENT SH!T? SH!T OUT OF (luck)
I have seen and don’t give too much credit about homeschooling.
I have seen some parents that have pursued this avenue and it is really up to the parent to make it work. I have seen first hand that it was a cop out because they didn’t want to have to deal with the schools, or that their child was a problem.My point is that, it is still a standard of a child that is set loose in the world with what credentials?
Elem. Teacher,
You are right totally correct. I love the nightmares part. Probably every teacher in the area has the same recurring dream.
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