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Illegal Aliens And Real Estate Fraud
By Greg L | 13 November 2007 | Local Economy, Illegal Aliens | 192 Comments
The stories of has been happening behind the scenes in the real estate industry haven’t gotten much ink, but helps to explain why so many who work in that industry have in particular become so concerned about the illegal alien issue, and active on this site. What’s happened there has threatened the livelihood of so many, and long before the rest of us grasped what was happening, many title examiners, mortgage brokers and real estate agents saw rampant unscrupulous behavior that turned a healthy market into a disaster. This is but one story that demonstrates the need for criminal investigations and prosecutions to restore public confidence in this market and deter future unlawful behavior.
Victor purchased a house in the Sudley subdivision of Prince William County inn February of 2007. Soon after, the storm door was propped open, and this became a flophouse for illegal aliens. Chickens roamed the back yard, and mattresses were regularly being moved in and out. There was constant and heavy vehicle traffic The property became a persistent trouble spot in what was still a pretty nice neighborhood. Zoning inspectors were called to this property, and as too often happens, were not able to obtain sufficient evidence to bring enforcement action against the homeowner.
A neighbor contacted a friend in the industry to see if they could figure out what had happened here, and immediately strange things started showing up:
I checked on the property on land records again and, at first, it looked like there was not a mortgage on the property - like they paid cash. Then, upon further inspection, I found 2 mortgages; however, the title company they used crossed out the correct legal description and attached a legal description for property in Marumsco Hills down in Woodbridge - consequently making it look like the property was free and clear of any liens. Deliberate? Don’t know. Sloppy, yes. I contacted the mortgage company and they are having it corrected.
The neighbor then had a rather revealing interaction with someone living in this house, who had backed into a car while coming out of the driveway. The immediate reaction of this person was “no policia” and “no driver license”, in broken English. Pretty clearly we’re dealing with an illegal alien here. A cash settlement was made to resolve this, unfortunately. It would have been preferable to have the party at fault here answer to authorities why they were unlawfully driving, and without insurance, and fully held to account.
It was time for further investigation about this property:
I went back and checked land records and found that Victor was the only person on the loan; however, at the settlement table his “wife”, Gloria, was put on the deed. Is Gloria illegal? Don’t know. Did the mortgage company check to see if Gloria is really Victor’s wife - No. Is this the way a possible illegal gains title to real estate - YES. I’ve seen it for years. I just found out the person who backed out of that driveway gave her name as Myra - and my friend said Myra has been there for months, is evidently one of the renters in that house which has this white van she drives going and coming and sometimes carries the mattresses. Is Myra driving without a license, definitely. Do Victor and his wife live in that house also? Not sure. My friends says she believes 4 families live at that address. Victor also is on title at another property on Waterbury Court with a Joel [last name redacted, but matches the last name associated with this property]. Signatures match. Is Michelle Court property a flop-house? Looks like it. My friend said after zoning came out, the property got cleaned up. One of the problems checking title is the way names are indexed. In this case, one has to look under [various iterations of the last name in question] and trying to run title on these people with all these different names is a pain in the butt at times. Then one has to determine if he is using Victor or Manuel.
This is pretty clearly a case of fraud. Settlement agencies are supposed to help prevent this, and not only are professional ethics involved here, but issues of criminal law. In order to have something like this happen, purchasers either need to commit extensive identity fraud, or parties professional involved in the purchase must knowingly and deliberately look the other way as false information is provided.
Either way, this is destroying our communities, defrauding lending institutions, and harming the ability of honest people who want to purchase their first home. We can’t restore our communities until this mess gets cleaned up, and those responsible are brought to justice.
UPDATE: The City Paper has a pretty extensive article that talks about how even legal immigrants in the area were preyed upon by unscrupulous predators in the real estate industry. How many have had their American Dream snatched away like this is hard to tell, but it’s clearly too many.
The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.
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“Did the mortgage company check to see if Gloria is really Victor’s wife - No. Is this the way a possible illegal gains title to real estate - YES. I’ve seen it for years”
EXCELLENT QUESTION!
( I have wondered the same thing as far as applying for any loan, bank acct, tax filings)
This is ONE step that does not get checked..VERIFYING MARRIAGE. ( loop hole to be exposed below)
I will explain it this way:
Income taxes…same damn thing, a couple can claim being married( not verified) file married, or separated…same rules apply…bank accounts, etc., credit reports…they never ( to my knowledge) verify marriage being filed.
OK, with that said, even IF marriage were verified, what is to say that ( loophole) the couple can claim they were separated,etc..reconciled…
EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT QUESTION
Take a look at these story..Sorry, I only have the story not the link. This story involves a few other local jurisdictions….
Woman Who Bought House Using Stranger’s Name Gets 5 Years for ID Theft
By Tom Jackman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, November 10, 2007; B04
The woman who took a stranger’s driver’s license and used it to buy a $419,000 townhouse in Fairfax County last year was sentenced to five years in prison yesterday.
The scheme unraveled for Elizabeth Cabrera-Rivera, 40, not when she obtained two mortgages for the house in the stranger’s name, or when she deeded the house to herself. It was when she refinanced her second mortgage, and the bank sent an overpayment check to the stranger, that Cabrera-Rivera was caught. She was arrested at the BB&T bank in Arlington County that figured out her scheme.
The victim of the identity theft, Jose Lara of Winchester, told an Arlington Circuit Court judge yesterday that the fraud had devastated him financially. When he went to refinance the house he lives in with his wife and three children, he was turned down. When he sought a business loan for his trucking company, he was refused and had to sell the company at a $70,000 loss. His one line of credit was reduced from $9,500 to $1,000, Lara said.
Arlington Deputy Commonwealth’s Attorney Evie Eastman asked Lara what credit issuers say when he tells them he has been a crime victim. “They say that it’s something they just can’t believe,” Lara said. “I’ve had to shut down everything completely. I just have my job [with a printing company]. That’s all I have right now.”
Cabrera-Rivera “never intended to cause Mr. Lara these problems,” said her lawyer, Alberto Salvado. “Her whole plan was to actually have a house in her name. It was not intended to use Mr. Lara and leave him with the bill to pay for everything.”
Cabrera-Rivera and Lara went to the same chiropractor, and in February 2006 she either found or stole Lara’s wallet. That is when Cabrera-Rivera, whose “whole intent in this was to have a piece of the American dream,” Salvado said, decided to buy a house.
Salvado said Cabrera-Rivera, who is married and has a 5-year-old son, made the mortgage payments. But Eastman said Cabrera-Rivera’s effort to refinance came so soon after the initial mortgages that she may never have paid anything.
“His life is in ruins right now,” Eastman said of Lara. “It is going to be an uphill battle for Mr. Lara to clear his name.”
Eastman said Cabrera-Rivera and her husband were laborers who did not earn enough money to buy a $419,000 townhouse, but a mortgage broker got them the loan in Lara’s name. Eastman said Cabrera-Rivera also opened a joint bank account in her and Lara’s name, causing Lara further credit problems.
Authorities tried to target the mortgage broker by having Cabrera-Rivera call him to get him to admit that he knew what was going on, Eastman said, but he did not do so. Salvado said the broker guided Cabrera-Rivera through the transactions, in which she obtained a first mortgage for $335,200 and a second mortgage for $83,800 in September 2006. In early November that year, court records show, “Lara” deeded the home to Cabrera-Rivera as a gift.
Also in early November, Cabrera-Rivera and her brother appeared at a BB&T bank branch in Arlington and applied for a $90,000 loan to refinance the second mortgage. She received the loan but overpaid on the closing costs, and the refund check went to Lara — who never knew he owned a house in Springfield.
BB&T contacted Arlington police, then asked Cabrera-Rivera to come in for some more paperwork. By this time, Eastman said, Cabrera-Rivera’s brother was gone, so she used her husband to pose as Lara. Both were arrested. Eastman said they had left their son, then 4, home alone while they made the trip to the bank.
Cabrera-Rivera’s husband, Lorenzo D. Castro, pleaded guilty to three misdemeanor identity theft charges in September and is awaiting sentencing. Her brother, Juan Carlos Cabrera-Rivera, has fled to Bolivia, Salvado said.
Cabrera-Rivera pleaded guilty in July to misdemeanor identity theft and felony charges of conspiracy, credit card theft and attempting to obtain a loan under false pretenses. “I apologize to Mr. Lara and to all of you,” she said yesterday, sobbing.
Arlington Circuit Court Judge Benjamin N.A. Kendrick sentenced Cabrera-Rivera to one year on the identity theft charge and five years each on the three felony charges, to be served concurrently. He did not comment on the case.
**********
Channel 9 covering rape story now.
I have been following the area real estate sales (Manassas area and MP) for the past two or three years in the PW suppliment to the WP (Thursday and Sunday.) Have been continuously amazed at the extraordinary amount of sales to single person buyers (some men and others women) with Latino names and the out of sight prices being paid. I know for a fact of two houses, one in Sudley and the other in Westgate that were sold (one by the original owner) and another (2nd owner) to Latinos. Within two weeks, both of these houses were re-sold to other Latinos at 20,000 dollars more that they sold for two weeks prior. Definitely a lot of hanky-panky going on. These transactions were most probably handled through Latino realtors. One of the houses is now empty with a For Sale sign up and being handled by a Latino realtor. It appears once a property is handled by a Latino realtor, the property remains within the Latino realty domain (check the signs as to the agent’s name and you will see what I mean. There is a big time racket going in in the Latino housing market that needs to be investigated.
To add further: a title examiner, or other will often see the flip flop loophole mess of gift deeds, quit claim deeds, etc…there is A LOT of slack that can be played, on top of the creative financing ( non income verification loans, etc)
The lenders are the biggest ones to blame ( MOST of the time)
I have also seen first hand, a friend that I tried to WARN , has taken a deaf ear, because they wanted the house SO bad….(I saw the terms,EVEN knowing I am familiar with the business practices).They proceeded in buying the house.
The same friend refinanced ( they understood that AFTER my warnings they got “raped” for lack of better term, in the first place.They still proceeded with a deaf ear and it is even worse now …..doesn’t know it yet until the terms come due AND it’s UGLY…the lender is banking on the FACT that they will default and already have the % of worked into the terms)
Creative financing, creative brokering, creative selling, creative everything else, and yes this includes GREED.
One latino realtor told me most buyers saw the house for the very FIRST time after going to settlement.
Always, ask questions
Since when do couples have to be married to own a house in Virginia?
I would hate to think this was some new law.
————————————————————————–
Having said that, what can be done? This practice should be illegal and not only is it causing devalued property, deteriorating neighborhoods, and defrauding lending institutions (who I have little sympathy for), it is also wreaking havoc on the stock market and our economy on a national level.
After the election, I asked exactly what voters wanted Senator Colgan to do. I got very few responses. This looks like a great place to start. I don’t know enough about the house buying legal process. What would fix this problem?
Who are the guilty parties? The realtor, the lender, the title examiner? While some of the buyers are probably guilty as sin, I also believe there are unsuspecting buyers who simply do not know how much they are being fleeced, until it is too late.
More exposure is needed to alert everyone in detail what is going on with this racket.
Greg
Now you want to blame the Hispanics for the greed of people all over the country for the failure in Real Estate !!!!! You are stupid and a bigot. It is not unusual for only one person in a marriage to be on the title of property and especially if one of them had bad credit and one good. When the white folks were flipping property and making obscene amount of money it was ok but not if it was an Hispanic ?? Avarice and Greed is what caused this collapse that was driven by greed. Yes the mortgage industry was and is a big cause of this but you can see with the subprime mortgages just what happened. I bet you think that the billions of write offs were caused by the Hispanics and not the white folks in this country. White folks have no greed in the way you write.
You nor your like minded politicians will never solve the traffic problems in Virginia because you want to believe in the Flaming Liberal attitude that some one else is going to pay for your impact on the community. Of course you will take the hundreds of thousands of dollars of profit from the sale of your homes tax free and move out of the state.
Let’s talk about gift deeds in chain of title. A married person can own property individually without joinder of the wife. If that married person does a Deed of Gift to another person - say a “cousin” if you get my drift - and the wife does not sign that Deed of Gift waiving her Augmented Estate rights, she can call that property back into the estate if her husband dies. I find lots of, what I call, junk Deeds of Gift where people of certain ethnic persuasion transfer property and no marital status is set out on the deed. Problem? Definitely!! The gifter’s wife may be back in their home country. She would still have rights to his property here. I have seen times when Juan qualifies and buys a piece of property for Jose, who cannot qualify, but Jose will be making the payments. About a month after the closing, or even at closing, Jose gets put on the deed with Juan. Thereafter, Juan gifts his right to the property to Jose. Ultimately, Jose cannot make the payments and the property gets foreclosed on in Juan’s name. Everybody walks. I can tell LOTS of stories. More to follow…….
Dolph,
There are many guilty parties, clearly. We must remember the buyers are being advised by their chosen real estate agent and lender, just the same as you or I would. These people taking these loans are being had (”raped”) by those that are supposed to be acting on their behalf.
The title examiner information of public records such as the following, but not limited to… reports trusts, liens, judgments against property of public record in the local courthouse.
The notary has an obligation to verify signature, ID, and that the person before them is the person signing the documents.
I personally would think the banks would want to loan money to legals, because they have nothing to fear or cut and run from. Now, the illegal that’s a different story all together.
Dolph,
Another EXCELLENT question…You do not have to be married to buy a house.I approached the one “blurb” out of the story (being married)
There are a lot questions to the practices in question. I blame the lenders. ( MOST-buyers second and….what the law will allow third)
The same dirty tricks apply as far as quit claim or gift deeds, flip flopping….And for the record I am sick of Hispanic NAMES being the cause and assumed.Give anyone the CHANCE to “work” the system and most chances they will.
Bob Wills,
I don’t hop out and defend Greg at the drop of a hat. I often remain silent if I do not agree. However, this time he gets my full support on his contention about what is going on with the Manassas area real estate market.
Now what is making me say this? Oh …could it be that I live in the neighborhood and can see with my own eyes what is going on? I also went behind him using the landrover program and checked things out for myself.
I do not believe Greg was speaking about the national trend, he was speaking about our own neighborhoods right here in Prince William County. Before you call him stupid and a bigot, why not contact Lafayette and get her to take you on a little ‘field trip’ around the old ‘hood. She can then point out the many, many houses where this questionable practice is being done. The land records are a matter of public record. You can check it out for yourself.
Are some white people unscrupulous? Of course they are. However, in our neighborhoods the majority of house flipping is not being done by people with angelo names. The names are Hispanic. The real estate companies are Hispanic. Now what would YOU deduce?
Furthermore, why would you want honest, hard-working Hispanic folk to be fleeced by anyone? Often they are the victims of this crap that is going on. Talk about spitting on the American Dream! Greedy realtors and lenders just out to make a fast buck, with no regard for who is hurt in the process seems to be the name of this game.
Bob Wills at 11:29 PM Sir, there is nothing bigot or racist about this. The better percentage of foreclosures in PWC, Manassas and the Park are Latino names - over a hundred a month. Yes, most of this was driven by greed by them, the lenders and the realtors and there was a heck of a lot of fraud going on. I saw this first hand and I predicted what is happening today almost 3 years ago. Let me add another twist to this ….. the wife who could not qualify for the loan, who gets put on title at closing - husband and wife normally take title as tenants by the entirety, consequently giving them creditor protection if one spouse gets judgments recorded against the one party. Lo and behold, the wife starts getting judgments against her from companies that she bought furniture, took cash out of credit cards and purchased vehicles (can’t have vehicles repossessed that way), etc. etc. She gets a judgment entered against her and it will not attach to real estate if they go to sell.
Dolph,
As I was posting my response to you, I see ddpdrinker and Lafayette have posted too..they will understand this: It depends how title is held, vested, tenancy. Hope that clears things up. That makes a difference.
Lafayette and Redawn: I have a “ha-ha-ha” for you. I did a mini-search on a property in FX here a husband and wife and a 3rd party purchased a property. The stupid title company did their deed as joint tenants. The deed does not set out the husband and wife as tenants by the entirety with the 3rd party as a joint tenant as to the whole. Guess what - there is a huge judgment against the wife and there is a big judgment against the husband. Consequently, both stick to the property and will need to be paid at closing. Well, they don’t have the money to come to closing to pay off the judgments, etc., so I guess they’ll let the property get foreclosed on.
Redawn,
I do not know all the implications of what you are saying. As some of my former business is foreign to you, yours is fairly foreign to me.
Oh yea, title examiners are NOT at fault for this. They are paid by title companies and lawyers to report on title. Period. It is up to the lawyers and title company and insurer whether or not to insure title if they think there are fraudulent deeds. I do not. I clean up the deeds first. It is not up to the lawyer or title company to decide if the loan is fraudulent - that is up to the loan company.
I retract any evil I said against title examiners. Please scratch them from my diatribe. I do not know the ins and outs of the business and apologize to all of you I impugned by my statement.
Oh, Dolph, that’s okay. Everybody thinks anyone involved in a real estate transaction is at fault. Title examiners are not and some title companies are not; however, some are. There are title companies that try to deal mainly with the Latino community and they help in doing whatever they can to get the case to settle. I know first hand and it made me sick. When I saw what was happening and could not stop it, I left. I have my own company and I will not deal with those shenanigans. Also, some lenders and individual agents have opened their own title companies to keep everything in-house to get the deal done, no matter what.
Dolph,
I always knew you were a reasonable person. Well, apology accepted.
We never know when that West Gate Witch swoop down after you.
ddpdrinker,
Lots of in-house “deals” for sure. Those chickens were just the beginning of this story I see. What’s next?
“dolph said on 14 Nov 2007 at 12:00 am:
I retract any evil I said against title examiners. Please scratch them from my diatribe. I do not know the ins and outs of the business and apologize to all of you I impugned by my statement.”
I say we have more lotto tickets for sale……LOL…we already have them and they supplement our schools…So why not start another one to bail us out…transportation, deportation, whatever….YOU SAID SCRATCH….made me think about what obit said in another post..
Anyhow… it has been used to sell properties as far as essays or holding a lottery/ raffle…. to bail out on loans? why not………..
Lafayette and Dolph,
That sounds like a possible threat…air traffic rights? NO FLY ZONES?
LOL
Lafayette: Those title companies that close the in-house deals are instructed by the lender to NOT explain to the purchaser(s) the loan is an ARM or a negative amortization or has a prepayment penalty.
ddpdrinker,
Lots of in-house “deals” for sure. Those chickens were just the beginning of this story I see. What’s next?
Can I answer…the eggs and left un noticed, they smell nasty….LOL
Which came first….the chicken or the egg/ the practices and what they can get away with…
I’ve been doing real estate closings for almost 30 years and I have never seen the terrible antics that have been going on the past 4 or so years. It’s horrible and frustrating. I do see, now, lenders are revamping programs and getting stricter both with individual qualification standards and property seasoning.
” ddpdrinker said on 14 Nov 2007 at 12:27 am:
Lafayette: Those title companies that close the in-house deals are instructed by the lender to NOT explain to the purchaser(s) the loan is an ARM or a negative amortization or has a prepayment penalty.”
I always wondered about those “fly by night” companies ( title, etc) that would do in house and/or witness only settlements etc. You are asking the same question I am asking. I have heard of such practices and wondered how they can get away with it.
There are still FULL service title companies that provide settlement services with in house attorneys, insurance, etc….hmmm
I still blame the lenders and if the lenders are advising the “title / fly by night companies” to not inform the purchaser(s) well, buyer beware
There are many FULL service title companies indeed. There’s no need to be “penny wise and pound foolish”. You get what you pay for, or at least that’s how it should be. Mortgages are just like anything else BUYER BEWARE!!!
ddpdrinker,
Tightening up, huh? Good news.
Now would be an excellent time for teachers, first responders, and other county workers to relocate to PWC. Prices are very low. There are still quite a few original owners left in many well established neighborhoods. Now, is the time to help revitalize and restore our communities.
Lafayette,
Yes, I agree good way to put it “penny wise and pound foolish”.
And good idea to purchase title insurance
Absolutely, redawn.
This is interesting news. I wonder about real estate shenanigans in other immigrant communities in PWC. I remember reading about the marriage fraud scam/business involving immigrants from Ghana. I don’t know about western PWC but over here in the eastern side of the county there is a large number of people from Ghana. This same real estate dynamic could be happening in these other less conspicuous immigrant communities. Here’s a link to a preview of the article I was reminded of. The Post won’t let you see the whole thing.
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/1161109331.html?dids=1161109331:1161109331&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&fmac=&date=Nov+13%2C+2006&author=Jerry+Markon+-+Washington+Post+Staff+Writer&desc=Hunch+Unravels+Immigrant+Wedding+Scam
Most of the brokers were in it for the quick commissions.
Many of the illegals never had any intention of keeping and paying for the houses.
The could rent the homes to others for six months, not pay the mortgage, then remove the kitchens and copper pipes when they were foreclosed and they go back to their home country with an extra fifty thousand for six months work.
Someone forgot to mention that the people receiving rent in the flophouses are also in violation of federal law and liable for fines and penalty for not filing the rental income to the IRS and not paying the tax dues as every other person who rents properties does.
A quick phone call or anonymous tip to the IRS may stop this illegal practice for a while.
I imagine that in the future a suit could be brought against the federal governemnt since it seems they are not interested in enforcing tax laws while pursuing anyone who is here legally or a citizen for any dues coming from other income.
Massive fraud in the real estate sector has been perpetrated and the banks are accomplices. Not one financial institution has brought action requesting better legislation or guidelines to avoid the occurrences above. No one wants to address the problem and the illegal aliens are masters at exploiting a system that is insufficient in safeguarding any transaction , for real estate or not.
Well I for one do not plan on staying in PWC, the park or the Manassas area any longer than possible. I have had with this area and its squalor, incompetent politicians and gazillion illegals bringing down my quality of life. I am heading northeast as quickly as humanly possible once I can sell my house. I will downgrade into a condo if I have to, but just get me out of illegalville please, PLEASE. No mas, no mas por mi.
ddpdrinker on 13 Nov 2007 at 11:31 pm:
There are a lot of “Jose and Juans” out there. Just look around the area. Look for the signs.
Okay.. slowly making our way to the largest problem in PWC - fiscal soundness. This does not make me an illegal apologist; illegal immigration is a huge problem but money trumps as you need it to solve that problem.
Once we wade through the illegals and then realize they are but part of the real estate problem we will finally get to real estate revenues and the lack thereof.
Speed it up please…. we need to get all the way to debt capacity and transportation
And who is Jorge W. attempting to bail out?
park’d on 14 Nov 2007 at 7:37 am:
Tranquillo Hombre! You will find the same situation in virtually every area of this country. There are very few sections of this country that are imune from illegal immigration and the problems it has spawned.
Parkd,
Be careful where you go. Some areas north and east of here are wanting to issue driver’s licenses and IDs to illegals. I imagine the illegals will flock to those areas and then you can end up with the same mess.
All,
Also, I’ve seen popsicle signs in my neighborhood advertising mortgages. They will say 5.5%, no money down, no credit/bad credit. So, could illegal aliens apply for these loans? With no money down, they would not lose anything when the house gets foreclosed. It would be like renting a place with no security deposit. Also, with some cash back or refinancing, that would explain the purchase of SUVs and expensive gifts for their children. I’ve seen and been in one of these foreclosed homes. Looks like they did not take care of the house from day one. In fact the house smelled like urine in the basement area. Could it be the attitude is to trash the house? I know of another abandoned house that is trashed. Could the attitude of these people be that if they can’t live in the house they will trash it so that others will not be able to live in it? Could this be retaliation towards the neighborhood? Here me out. If they had the money to buy expensive gifts for their children, why couldn’t they repair a fence or keep the kitchen clean? I ask the questions because it is too much of a coincidence to see a few houses trashed.
Anybody have any thoughts on this?
Come on guys, I have lived in this area most of my life and I know the good areas and the bad areas now. There is NO other area in Northern Virginia that even comes close to the same level of illegalville status that Manassas Park and PWC in general have. Falls Church and Arlington are bad as well but nowhere near as bad as here. ANY other place to live would be an improvement for me. It would be Centreville on the Braddock Road side or Reston for me.
This is all assuming of course I can even sell my place. I wouldn’t come anywhere near this area if I were a potential buyer and with all the securing of loans that are happening now due to all the fraud and corruption I doubt that an illegal or run of the mill legal blue collar Hispanic could get a loan to buy these days. I’d probably have to cough up all my equity to unload my home now and I’m not sure that the area has deteriorated enough to warrant that kind of drastic action….yet.
Look what may be coming to a home near you!
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/071113/vacant_homes_crime.html?.v=1
“It’s created a safety hazard. And if we have to sell our house tomorrow, we’re out of luck,” said resident Scott Smith. “Real estate agents say to me ‘We’re not redlining you, but I tell my clients to think twice about buying here.’”
That line in the article sums up exactly what any smart realtor is telling their clients about PWC and MP. Stay away from manasty at all costs. Until this area is cleaned up and the illegals forcefully removed, then this area will never recover and nobody with any means will want to live here. It’s priceless that Jones and the city council don’t see that. They all keep waltzing along calling us racists as the town withers and dies.
park’d,
I don’t know what to say to you other than many places are as bad or worse than Prince William County. The grass is not necessarily greener in other locations.
You will never get the value out of your house if you keep publically trashing the area. Bad news travels very fast. Be mindful of unintended consequences while you are venting.
The problems we are facing with the housing/lending crisis are not limited to illegals.
Dolph, I’m pretty sure that the word is out on this area already, especially after the resolution. It might be better if I felt that my elected officials were on the side of law abiding behavior, but MP is the illegal sanctuary city of this side of Northern Virginia and nothing I can say or do will change that now. I also know of no other places in the area that are as bad as what MP has become and I used to travel extensively in the area as an IT consultant so I know the area pretty well. Even Herndon at its worst was not as bad as the park is now. A smart soldier knows when to cut and run. This town is lost unless the pols get their heads out of their a$$es and start getting on board with PWC and its initiatives.
I think I give up on all of you. We are bad news because we made ourselves bad news. Our fearless and other - less leader hammered that home nationally over and over again.
What did any of you think was going to happen? This resolution could have been passed with less negativity and much more class.
Time to pay the piper.
Oh My My,
I come to this board for a fresh perspective, and I always get one.
Illegal aliens caused the housing downturn?!
Is there any problem that would not be solved by I challenge those of you to believe this to create a list of problems some sort of Final Solution for the illegal aliens wouldn’t solve. I imagine the list would be quite short.
Because from this board I have learnt that it would solve:
The Housing Crunch
Criminal activity
parasites and disease in food products
neighborhood clenliness
drunk driving
High School illiteracy for our dumber kids
….
The list is a lot longer, and I’m sure you all could populate it very easily. The list I think would be quite short would be one where we list societal problems that would not go away (of course, in your minds) when they’re all rounded up and Fed Exed home.
Northerner
Park’d: This is the Alamo, baby (think Dick Vitale when you read that).
One Voice: Adios.
Dolph: Maybe your old buddy could get a law passed like the Cleveland ordinance in the Yahoo article above.
“Additionally, before a house is sold, it must pass a housing inspection, which includes a repair-cost escrow requirement created in 2000.
This encourages owners of vacant or foreclosed properties to make repairs, said Kamla Lewis, director of neighborhood revitalization.”
Someone with 31 years of slurping at the Commonweath’s and PWC’s feed troughs should be able to come up with his own ideas, if he had an inclination to do so.
Greg is such a master at sowing hatred toward latinos.
“The immediate reaction of this person was “no policia” and “no driver license”, in broken English. Pretty clearly we’re dealing with an illegal alien here.”
How many countless stories have we heard about people who came here legally but did not have a good grasp of the language until they had been here for years?
Of course, pointing that out would undermine Greg’s intention. This guy is leading y’all around by the nose.
His method is to constantly pounce on any negative story that mentions latino names, then find a way to tie it to an illegal as in the blurb above. Then you guys go around seeing all latinos as illegal until proven legal (why isn’t Greg promoting the american tradition of innocent until proven guilty, i’m sure he would want that tradition extended to his white family members). He hopes that you will be conditioned to hate latinos on site. Hate and fear are very strong motivators politically. He’s doing his best to nurture these things within you.
*****Is there any problem that would not be solved by I challenge those of you to believe this to create a list of problems some sort of Final Solution for the illegal aliens wouldn’t solve. I imagine the list would be quite short.*****
My apologies for the poor construction. it should read:
Is there any problem that would not be solved by removing illegal aliens (and just an aside… I get the impression that a lot of people here wouldn’t be at all sad if the legal brown people were to close up shop in PWC too)? I challenge those of you to believe this to create a list of problems some sort of Final Solution for the illegal aliens wouldn’t solve. I imagine the list would be quite short.
I appreciated what Greg has done, what Supervisor Stewart has done! Today, I pick up the post and see that the Virginia Crome Commission has called on Gov. Kaine to require State Troopers to help the Feds detain and deport illegals.
We must keep the pressure on all those in positions of Authority in order to solve the Illegal Immigration problem and PWC will lead the way. Thanks to Lou Dobbs, the Sheriff in Arizona and whoever else is against “ILLEGAL” immigration!
Greg doesn’t lead any of us around by the nose. We see major problems in our communities and we can all rally around each other because of that. Do you think we are all mindless lemmings who woke up one morning and decided to hold the brown man down? Give me a break. They brought all of this negative attention on themselves.
And to answer Northerner’s question: Yes, many of the social and economic problems that plague Northern Virginia now would be all but eliminated if we didn’t have an extra million or so people here that shouldn’t be here. Why is that so hard to grasp? You name a problem we are having and I can tie illegal aliens to it that are making it worse.
Park’d,
MP’s problems are not new. They have been there and will continue to be there. The town did not have the fiscal means to become a city.
Prince William, on the other hand, is not the cesspool you make it out to be. There are many places far worse.
It remains evident, with every visit to this hate mongering post that hispanics are the foundation of everything that is wrong with this country. Please, I invite you to start thinking for yourselves and see how myopic your world view has become. This IS WHY Help Save Manassas is rightfully accused of being racist…… ESOL classrooms need to be disinfected as MRSA is brought to school from hispanics, the housing market is in the toilet because of hispanics, crime is a result of evil disgusting hispanics, and on and on. You all can try to bring on your “token” immigrants to Help Save Manassas, but I imagine very few immigrants, once they research your post, will be interested in selling their souls out. Give me abreak, you guys are following a narcisstic dangerous individual with a distorted sense of reality.
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn’t a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out
It remains evident, with every visit to this hate mongering post that hispanics are the foundation of everything that is wrong with this country. Please, I invite you to start thinking for yourselves and see how myopic your world view has become. This IS WHY Help Save Manassas is rightfully accused of being racist…… ESOL classrooms need to be disinfected as MRSA is brought to school from hispanics, the housing market is in the toilet because of hispanics, crime is a result of evil disgusting hispanics, and on and on. You all can try to bring on your “token” immigrants to Help Save Manassas, but I imagine very few immigrants, once they research your post, will be interested in selling their souls out. Wonder if this profile fits anyone associated with HSM.
Narcisistic Personality Disorder
DSM-IV Diagnostic Criteria
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy. The disorder begins by early adulthood and is indicated by at least five of the following:
An exaggerated sense of self-importance
Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
Believes he is “special” and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
Requires excessive admiration
Has a sense of entitlement.
Takes advantage of others to achieve
Lacks empathy
The patient is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him.
Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or narcisistic
Clinical Features
Patients with Narcisistic Personality Disorder exaggerate their achievements and talents, and are surprised when they do not receive the recognition they expect.
Their inflated self-evaluation implies a thinly veiled devaluation of others and their accomplishments.
Narcisistic patients only pursue relationships that they perceive will benefit them in some way.
Interpersonally, they are very entitled, expecting others to meet their needs immediately and can become quite indignant if this does not happen.
These patients are self-absorbed and unable to respond to the needs of others.
Any perception of criticism is poorly tolerated
To John Locke:
If we allowed are laws to be broken by a certain group of people who have immigrated here illegally then our country will become that country those people left. Why should we sit idle and allow this?
See, some like yourself use the “race” argument just because you know it will attract attention in some instances. However, this won’t work since now it is affecting all races who were born here or immigrated here legally.
What part about this don’t you understand? If we start allowing illegal aliens rights and turning a blind eye to the laws they have broken then we should do the same for petty crimes…who are we to allow some to choose which laws should be turned a blind eye too?
These illegal aliens are here illegally and have broken laws and YES they should all be deported! No if’s and or buts.
John Locke,
Are you not doing pretty much the same thing when you accuse all of us that post here of following Greg and being hate-mongers?
There are a variety of opinions posted on this blog. Many of us are here because this blog is a ‘home edition.’ I certainly do not agree with everything here and get beaten up periodically for it. That’s ok, this is America.
I am one who said that many of the foreclosures in this area are Hispanic. Operative words: in this area. I am not so illiterate that I believe that is the case everywhere in the United States. I would like to be rid of the unscrupulous people who are allowing this to happen. I don’t care about their ethnicity but I do care about their ethics.
Be careful who you paint with that broad brush.
Advocator - adios??? Just because you don’t understand? Type of response that I’d expect to a complicated financial issue.
Sad sad …..
John: I took the liberty of proof reading your post and correcting in parenths what I see as the glaring mistakes and omissions. Cheers!
It remains evident, with every visit to this hate mongering post that hispanics (illegals) are the foundation of everything that is wrong with this country. Please, I invite you to start thinking for yourselves and see how myopic (well rounded) your world view has become. This IS WHY Help Save Manassas is rightfully accused of being racist (citizens concerned over their communities and quality of life)…… ESOL classrooms need to be disinfected as MRSA is brought to school from hispanics (illegals), the housing market is in the toilet because of hispanics (illegals and their hispanic money grubbing realtors and loan officers who prey on their own culture), crime is a result of evil disgusting hispanics (illegals), and on and on. You all can try to bring on your “token” immigrants (the people that did it the right way and make this country the great place that is is, or was) to Help Save Manassas, but I imagine very few immigrants (illegals), once they research your post, will be interested in selling their souls out. Give me abreak, you guys are following a narcisstic (concerned) dangerous (you mean Christian, male and white) individual with a distorted (realistic) sense of reality.
Other than where I corrected your mistakes with parenths, it looks good! Carry on.
John Locke,
I posted before I saw your Narcisistic Personality Disorder list. That was actually very interesting. Thank you for the post. All sorts of people I know came to mind as I read it. Naturally, not being narcisistic, I didn’t think of myself. ho ho ho.
Seriously, regardless of your intent in posting, thanks.
The suggestion of reporting landlords to the IRS is excellent. You can check on the owner of any home, and view its transaction history, in PWC by going to:
http://www4.pwcgov.org/realestate/LandRover.asp
Type in the property’s address and all of that information comes up.
Identifying rental properties (i.e., illegal alien boarding houses) is, as everyone posting on this web site knows, very easy because of the overcrowding, cars, trash, open screen doors, etc.
The owner of any property must declare rental income whether they are absentee landlords or reside at the property with their renters. There is a very specific process for doing this. We own a rental townhouse (leased to a LEGAL immigrant) in Fairfax. The taxes can get complicated and we have our accountant prepare the forms for us.
I wonder how many of these boarding house owners who just want to turn a quick profit bother to comply with our tax laws? Rhetorical question, obviously, because if they don’t care about our immigration laws why would they concern themselves with our tax laws?
One final thought; I’m sure some illegal alien apologists will respond that we are harassing immigrants by thinking they should have to comply with these laws and the complicated procedures, and perhaps expensive processes if you have to hire an accountant, they require. I’m sick to death of hearing them claim that our legal immigration processes are too time-consuming and expensive for the illegals. They go on to argue that the illegals “just want a better life for their families” and are thus somehow entitled to ignore laws they find inconvenient. I’m sure we’ll hear the same thing about their complying with our tax laws.
Panel Wants Troopers on Immigration Enforcement
Va. Crime Commission Puts Pressure on Kaine
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/13/AR2007111301279.html?hpid=topnews
Virginia targets criminal aliens
http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071114/METRO/111140077/1001
I’d advise anyone wanting to have more than a parochial view of the housing market and its burst bubble to read thehousingbubbleblog.com.
This problem has been years in the making and is not caused by Hispanics. Hispanic names surface more than others in particular neighborhoods because those neighborhoods have been more affordable. Just as Mr. and Ms Yuppie stretched to afford something that they really couldn’t afford in Haymarket ,Gainesville, and Catharpin many Hispanics stretched to afford Sudley and WestGate and older sections of Manassas Park. I think more of the blame should be placed on the realtors, brokers, appraisers, loan officers, loan bundlers, the stock market,etc. than on poorly informed homeowners. Hey, there are people with college degrees who are losing properties in Independent Hill where Hispanics are a small minority. It became all about greed and that fault is not limited to Hispanics. Fraudsters are wiley and appear in every ethnic and racial grouping.
Another article (from the NY Times) addresses the same problems cited in the article 999 linked. Note the cost to taxpayers and how problems have a tendency to become concentrated in some areas.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/23/us/23vacant.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Park’d
You all can try to bring on your “token” immigrants (the people that did it the right way and make this country the great place that is is, or was) to Help Save Manassas, but I imagine very few immigrants (illegals), once they research your post, will be interested in selling their souls out.
Tthe ‘immigrants’ that Locke refers to in both instances would be the same as your first definition. I believe your second attempt at deciphering immigrants as ‘illegals’ is incorrect.
Very funny pointing out the clinical characteristics of Narcisistic Personality Disorder, too bad the ‘9500Liberty Changes Course’ thread is closed because this is really more appropriate for that discussion. In my opinion, someone must have encouraged him to close that thread quickly.
There is something truly disturbing about $400-500k being considered ‘affordable.’ My neighbor told me that his house payments are $3500 a month. At what annual salary is this a comfortable payment to make?
I know that construction work pays well but it doesn’t pay THAT well. House-sharing is the natural outcome for people that far in over their heads. Now who is to blame? Anyone who participates in helping an unqualified buyer own a home they cannot afford.
These slick willlies get some prospective buyer in there and do a hard sell. Anyone ever been to a time-share presentation? Those slimeballs will have you believing you can afford the Taj Mahal on a gas station attendant’s salary before you get out of there.
Dolph,
I am not insuating that all people who visit this site are racist. I am suggesting that most headliners put out by Greg have a direct correlation to hispanics in a negative way. If there is not a direct attack it is insuated in more subtle ways. Many people here morph the illegal immigrant issue with hispanics and to deny that reality is disingenous at best. I have seen you post on more than one occasion a corrective comment to a post that was clearly, from any perspective, racist. I believe I even thanked you. My concern is the more subtle ways in which the issue of illegal immigration is being distorted and as a result generalizing a subset of people.
park’d said on 14 Nov 2007 at 11:16 am:
Excellent editing job!
Parkd,
I didn’t know whether you meant out of state or not. Sorry for the misunderstanding. My mom lives in Fairfax and there is an area close to her that is just as bad as conditions in Manassas Park. I’m hoping Help Save Fairfax will bring those areas to the public’s attention. I’ve seen numerous additions to houses that looks like they were just slapped together. I’ve also seen where it looks like they put two houses together on one lot. I’m not sure why zoning hasn’t stopped this practice.
“One final thought; I’m sure some illegal alien apologists will respond that we are harassing immigrants by thinking they should have to comply with these laws and the complicated procedures, and perhaps expensive processes if you have to hire an accountant, they require.”
There is nothing at all complicated about totalling up your rental income for the last year and putting it on the “Other Income” line of the 1040 form, assuming one has a 3rd grade math education.
I’m laughing at some of these posts. Are you saying illegal immigrants caused the real estate market to fall? I know there might have been some overcrowding in these places, but it is against the law to discriminate against anyone looking for housing.
Now, Greg’s post has a lot of salient issues and I see an issue of some fraud, but lest we forget until this year, anyone with a job could buy a house even without a credit check in some instances.
Granted the vast majority of these people bought houses well above their means, that’s why the market fell. I don’t know if people bought houses to flip them, or for an investment or to legitimately raise a family, etc., but if they intentionally destroyed property, then they are stupid.
Add lenders who were way too liberal, along with speculators, you’ve a perfect storm for housing problems.
However, to blame all the ills of Virginia towards a group of people who may or may not be legal is off-base.
I have been a resident of the area for four years, is this problem with illegals a recent thing? Myself, I moved here from California am just curious. I think a lot of the undocumented moved here because of the quality of life, housing and work — I don’t think they spontaneously showed up in the area and crossed the border, they’ve been in the country for a while (perhaps somewhere else), if not at least for 5 years or a decade.
Why would Greg have given an interview to 9500liberty and then call them partisan?
park’d @ 11:16 - great comment. Isn’t it funny how the only people claiming racism are the ones (hispanic, legal & illegal according to MWB) who are actually using their race for special exception to our laws, which end up negatively affecting all of us (how dare we want to address the problem they create) in the diverse cultures of law-abiding citizens?
Whoa:
You’ve taken what you quoted out of context…The broken english isn’t the give-away, or possible indicator, of said persons legal status…its thier inability to produce a driver’s license and thier adament request to not have the police involved.
If you’ll take a few moments and look around there are a few of us who do think with our own brains and do retain the ability to decide truths for ourselves.
Northerner:
What problems that you listed wouldn’t, in your extremely valued opinion, be positively affected if the illegal alien equation were taken away?
whoa, because they misrepresented themselves as impartial when in reality they are biased.
Dolph, it does seem far-fetched to call a house in that range affordable. I think that’s why these low-doc, no-doc, sub-prime ARMS became prevalent (sp?)…because few people with the median income for an area could afford the median-priced home in the area using the old 2-1/2 x annual income qualifier. The mortgage companies had to get creative and as long as prices were rising, they were generally covered.
I want to know how it’s possible for a house zoned single family, can be sold with a “1-4 Family Rider” attached to the Deed, changing the house into a multi-family rental unit? It’s happening in PWC, too. Who should that be reported to? Anyone?
K. o’toole, start asking for the building permits if you’re a listing agent or buyer of a house. Compare that with what you see. I would think that to change the zoning the house would have been through a BZA hearing.
k. o’toole:”because they misrepresented themselves as impartial when in reality they are biased.”
You just described Greg LeDeek to a tee…
ManexicoResident:”its thier inability to produce a driver’s license and thier adament request to not have the police involved.”
Unless you forgot, the US Constitution hasn’t been suspended yet and it’s no ones obligation to show you one iota of documentation…no matter how important you may deem yourself to be…or whatever grandiose Defender of the Reich title you may have appointed yourself to.
I was once sideswiped by a white women driving a 100,000$ mercedes benz. I actually did a 180 in the middle of traffic and miraculously was not hit by other vehicles. She was obviously very well heeled (this was in tysons corner), spoke perfect english and….OH YEAH…she BEGGED me not to call the police because her insurance might go up.
You’re so easily led around by the nose by mr. LeDeek.
Fair and Balanced -
Agree that illegals are reciving far too much credit for the housing issue that is negatively impacting our county coffers. Having a very difficult time articulating that the plummeting real estate revenue is the major issue here in PWC - yes, illegals are certainly part of the problem but not the root cause nor the majority of the problem.
When the majority of your local tax revenue is real estate tax and the market is as such - there is a BIG problem in PWC.
I have been told “Adios” by Advocator for attempting to point this FACT out.
Keep trying. I am tired.
I’ll ask the question to those involved in mortgages. Is it possible for an illegal alien to get a mortgage? Notice I did not say Hispanics, illegal aliens can be from other countries. As I said before, I’ve seen popsicle signs that advertise mortgages where one doesn’t need a credit history (”no credit”). Also, it is a known fact that you can apply for credit at Bank of America without a social security number. I think it is a valid question. It could shed some more light on current conditions. I would think that lending practices need to be cleaned up because what we are currently seeing, especially in this county (notice I said this county), has a huge economic impact.
Patty
I would like to add the following to your question directed to those involved in mortgages, if you don’t mind:
How many finance only loans have been issued in PWC?
How many no credit needed loans have been issued in PWC?
Of the forclosures; how many were finance only loans?
Of the forclosures, what is the average length of the loan prior?
The above topic really hit’s home with my, my credit was sacked by an illegal working in the swift meat packing plant that got raided awhile back. Luckily he didnt have time to do much damage but it did take me a bit of time to get things cleaned up with assistance from my legal office. I would have gone nuts had my SSN been used to obtain a mortgage! This burns my blood, this woman affected his credit, his job and just about his whole life and all she could say was “im sorry”, I’m sorry but just what punishment should be appropriate for this piece of human garbage?
One Voice, it’s all groups in all regions of the country that are having foreclosure and housing issues.
It is not only happening in PWC. This site does have an agenda, and I respect it; however, to blame incidents that pop up from time to time on illegal immigration when it could happen to any American is a little off-base.
If we are this angry about the issue, perhaps go after the real estate businesses in the area and ask why they would approve a loan for someone who could not afford to pay for in the long run, or the consumer was not aware of the risks? Why is your home value suffering?
Looking at the facts, the home buyers could have been legal or illegal.
Perhaps they wanted to take advantage of people and screw them, or maybe they rented out their place to make a profit off the mortgage?
We don’t know; however, we are throwing out assumptions, and they are dangerous if you have no way of proving them.
Everyone wants the American dream; however, some people will do anything to achieve, even if it means living well above what they can afford.
One Voice,
Before you adios and go into hasta la vista land, please remind your viewers that Prince William County has been known as a bedroom community for the past …oh …4 decades at least. Translation: houses, kids and schools.
The money talk is critical. We cannot print our own. I am listening to you!
whoa said on 14 Nov 2007 at 12:08 pm:
k. o’toole:”because they misrepresented themselves as impartial when in reality they are biased.”
You just described Greg LeDeek to a tee…
ManexicoResident:”its thier inability to produce a driver’s license and thier adament request to not have the police involved.”
Unless you forgot, the US Constitution hasn’t been suspended yet and it’s no ones obligation to show you one iota of documentation…no matter how important you may deem yourself to be…or whatever grandiose Defender of the Reich title you may have appointed yourself to.
I was once sideswiped by a white women driving a 100,000$ mercedes benz. I actually did a 180 in the middle of traffic and miraculously was not hit by other vehicles. She was obviously very well heeled (this was in tysons corner), spoke perfect english and….OH YEAH…she BEGGED me not to call the police because her insurance might go up.
You’re so easily led around by the nose by mr. LeDeek.
Easy there, Whoa. Although I REALLY do not appreciate your attempt at calling me racist, I think you missed my point. I, unlike you, will go the route of gently showing you my opinion without labeling you.
The quote that you put in your post several posts ago suggested that person in question was an illegal immigrant…that supposition was achieved via reading and understanding the story as a whole. Greg may have stated it as fact, but obviously this isn’t proven. Get a grip, Whoa…Please don’t be so quick to label me, I’m no more led about than you are, but I’m certainly not blind and am entitled to MY opinions as are you.
Patty, it depends. I don’t work in real estate, but my uncle does. it depends on the company and what banks they work with. I am going to fathom if you are able to secure a loan without ID or a credit check, you are being taken to the cleaners. I know a few years ago, many lenders would circumvent certain things to get the buyer into a home and get their commissions out to their sales people, realtors and loan officers.
It’s not like they are getting the best rate, I would assume at least in the double digits. Usually, the riskier the candidate, the higher the rate and those who have no credit history, they will be taken advantage of.
That’s also another part of the problem.
Patty, the problem is not regulated to PWC - it’s everywhere, and if you are looking at it from just a micro level, the big picture is being missed. The stock market has gone down, and tens of thousands have lost their jobs. Realtors are struggling and business has plummeted.
Easy credit is a huge problem, and giving the privilege out to anyone, much less without a down payment is a huge risk. That’s why so many small mortgage companies have gone to pasture and the market is suffering.
Illegal immigrants are just a small part of the problem, and the Midwest and South (further down than Va.) are being hammered with foreclosures and defaults on loans.
Why is it that when I call for criminal investigations of those unscrupulous folks in the real estate industry that aided and abetted fraud, the lefties think that I’m somehow blaming Hispanics for the downfall in the housing industry?
No matter how much I talk about illegal _behavior_, they seem to think I’m talking about discriminating against people based on their race or ethnicity. You’d think that these unscrupulous people who preyed on the immigrant population, as they like to refer to it, would be the subject of their ire rather than protected by them masking this issue in such a disingenuous attempt to ignore the reality that so many of us are dealing with.
Is lawbreaking only acceptable when it involves a racial or ethnic minority?
PG county in Maryland has the highest number of foreclosures in our area according to channel 5 news the day before yesterday.
Any of my comments on here were strictly speaking of the Sudley subdivision. I did say Hispanic and did not specify anything about illegal vs legal. I don’t know anything about status and home buying in my area. I intended to be myopic and to address only my own neighborhood.
I do realize that there is a much larger world out there. I will leave all discussion of the rest of the world to the macro economists. It is way beyond my area of expertise.
Addendum: make that I dont know about ‘immigration status and homebuying as they relate to each other’ in my area.
Greg said:
” The immediate reaction of this person was “no policia” and “no driver license”, in broken English. Pretty clearly we’re dealing with an illegal alien here.”
Okay, from this I didn’t quite think they were Norweigan and not wanting the police and not having a driver’s license doesn’t make someone illegal does it? Please don’t wonder why any more…..ok?
Let’s move on from this to the fiscal impact it’s having here in our county -
One Voice,
What is the most critical financial impact the housing market is having on the county and its ability to conduct business as usual?
I value your opinion on these matters.
One Voice said on 14 Nov 2007 at 12:48 pm:
Greg said:
” The immediate reaction of this person was “no policia” and “no driver license”, in broken English. Pretty clearly we’re dealing with an illegal alien here.”
NO DRIVER’S LICENSE, BROKEN ENGLISH, NO POLICE….SORT OF A NO BRAINER, HUH?
“I’d advise anyone wanting to have more than a parochial view of the housing market and its burst bubble to read thehousingbubbleblog.com.”
Thanks for mentioning this website. I went to it, looked up all the PWC addresses listed and a majority (75%) were hispanic surnames (I’m NOT saying they were illegal). It seems oddly out of whack with the current hispanic population in the county (about 20%).
That seems to prove the point that hispanics are more frequently involved in these types of transactions than others. Since hispanics tend to use hispanic agents and mortgage brokers, the blame would fall on them if they are involved in encouraging people to get in over their heads. Especially if there is a language barrier and the buyers are dependent on the agent for communication. Obviously hispanics were taken advantage of and we might assume that illegals were even easier to take advantage of because of their predicament of having no papers.
However, it would be ridiculous to say that hispanics are totally responsible for the nationwide or local housing problem, but look at the numbers on that site. Prince Williams pricing discounts (meaning the difference between the price now and the price two years ago) are way HIGHER than the other counties, meaning there are more foreclosures (per capita) and more severe housing price drops. Simply put, we are being hit harder than the rest of the NoVa area.
When we sold our house in Manassas in 2003, our listing agent (hispanic, but in PWC for over 30 years) was very wary about dealing with other hispanic agents. She said the entire sytem with the agents, related to the mortgage brokers, and trying to talk their clients into moving every 1-2 years into a higher priced property (with no doc loans) was a giant Ponzi scheme that would collapse. Looks like it collapsed!
No brainer if choose to assume - yes. No judgement on that.
But then trying to sound innocent is insulting to the readers… that was my point.
Dolph
A 14% depreciate in real estate values translates into a $53 million dollar county problem for next year. The county will collect $53 million less next year than this year.
I have family in Columbus, Ohio and can tell you the same problem with foreclosures is occurring, and it is the result of predatory lenders and also developers. The victims are working class white people, not hispanics. It’s far, far, worse there than it is here. However, I guess the residents there as not as industrious as here, because there are not flop houses or rooms for rent, just a lot of empty homes and broken dreams.
John Locke on 14 Nov 2007 at 10:59 am:
You should have stopped after your first sentence. That was/is the only correct statement you have made.
Here is another question to throw into the mix. I read where some of these lenders that made the sub prime loans would bundle them with other securities or low risk loans and sell them to banks. Does that seem like an invitation for corruption? I know it should be the resposibility for banks to look at what they are buying but when these things are bundled together I would think it might be difficult to discover the potential problems, foreclosures. The other question is where do these sub prime lenders get the up front money?
Any thoughts?
John Locke said on 14 Nov 2007 at 10:56 am:
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn’t a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out
FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, CHANGE THE RECORD!
Regarding properties that you suspect have riders on the mortgage, or anything else that changes them from use as a single-family unit, contact Zoning Enforcement in the County government. The only way a unit can be changed legally from single family to anything else is to get a rezoning through the Board of County Supervisors. Any use conflicting with a property’s current zoning is illegal.
In my previous post today, I gave the address:
http://www4.pwcgov.org/realestate/LandRover.asp
In addition to ownership and transfer information, that site gives all improvements and additions that have been permitted, inspected and approved. Improvements and additions must go through the proper County processes both for safety and tax purposes. They must conform to codes for fire, safety, construction, etc. Also, an improvement or addition increases a property’s assessed value. If it is not permitted and approved, it never finds its way into the County’s assessment data base (link above) and the owner is not paying their fair share of real estate taxes on their property.
In addition to observing properties for rental status to report their owners to the IRS (discussed in post above) we should look for additions or external improvements on properties and compare them to what’s approved (and being taxed) on the County’s web site.
Last year, a property that had been an illegal alien boarding house came on the market in my neighborhood. We looked at it as a possible residence for our parents who were considering moving to the area. Internally, the basement had been finished and other improvements had been made (very poor quality work) that had not been reported in the County’s assessments (I checked at the link above). I pointed this out to the real estate agent who responded that both he and the owner were aware of that. They were waiting for a “sucker” (his word, not mine) who would buy the property unaware of this. I responded that in order to be of assistance I was going to discuss this with the County and ask what needed to be done to bring the home into compliance. We did not buy the property because the owner and his agents were obviously crooks, but a few weeks thereafter the improvements showed up on the County’s web site and in the property’s assessed value.
Yikes!
A 14% depreciate in real estate values translates into a $53 million dollar county problem for next year. The county will collect $53 million less next year than this year.
Can we tell Jackson Miller to stop encouraging people to “walk away from their mortgages’?
anon said on 14 Nov 2007 at 1:01 pm:
When we sold our house in Manassas in 2003, our listing agent (hispanic, but in PWC for over 30 years) was very wary about dealing with other hispanic agents. She said the entire sytem with the agents, related to the mortgage brokers, and trying to talk their clients into moving every 1-2 years into a higher priced property (with no doc loans) was a giant Ponzi scheme that would collapse. Looks like it collapsed!
This situation has been documented in the area newspapers on more than one occasion. Hispanic realtors taking advantage of their Hispanic customers. And by the looks of the realtors handling some of foreclosed Hispanic property the and soon to be foreclosures, they are still in the game
Thanks, One Voice. Next question, how is the county going to be able to make up a deficit of $53 million? Also, will you explain the impact of this on the county’s bond rating? Inquiring minds want to know. And by the way, thanks for keeping it simple. Not all of us are financial wonks.
“A 14% depreciate in real estate values translates into a $53 million dollar county problem for next year. The county will collect $53 million less next year than this year.”
14% my tight, muscular a$$! I have lost about 25% of my home’s value from its peak in the summer of ‘05. Still falling….
Look around people. Of course most of the foreclosures in my area are because of illegals/Hispanics. In the park I have consistently counted faces on the street and I can say with 100% certainty that this town is in the area of 70% Hispanic with many of those illegal no doubt. Let’s all just stop with the PC nonsense and call a spade a spade. The local foreclosure problem IS due to the recent explosion in the Hispanic population, whether it be legal or illegal. This is not a racist statement, it is simple facts based on easily obtainable information and demographics checks. Sheesh.
Folks shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that just because residential real estate assessments have declined, that doesn’t mean that your tax payments will also.
There is no direct correlation between the amount of taxes you pay and the assessed value of your property across multiple years. The tax rate applied to that assessment can, and almost always does change. Just because assessments are down by x% does not mean that a municipal government’s revenues will decline by x%.
park’d,
I must first ask, are you bragging or complaining? grin.
Secondly, One Voice is speaking of the county, not MP. Homes in some areas have depreciated less than in other areas of the county. You cannot compare the county to MP when it comes to real estate.
———————————————————————————–
Everyone must also be willing to admit that our houses were greatly inflated. Your house value is really only a reflection of what people are willing to pay. If someone is willing to pay me $500k for my house, that is its worth. If a year later the highest bidder is offering $300k, well, that is my house’s value. If you bought at the height of the cycle, well, you are screwed is about all I can say.
All these politicians who used to pride themselves on not raising the tax rates are hucksters.
There is no way to make up the $53,000,000 deficit. That is the problem. There is no additional revenue coming PWC’s way. That’s why I keep bringing up the money for immigration and other promises that were made. That is why Mrs. Caddigan, Mr. Jenkins, Mr Nohe and Mrs. Barg have continued to drag their feet.
Many things go into a AAA bond rating. One is the perception of investors as to how good our bonds are and should they invest in PWC? Another is the ability of PWC to grow to keep pace with population - building etc. Another is a balanced five year plan (current one is not). I will get more information on this.
This deficit will be shared with the schools so they will also take a hit.
PWC taxpayers pay $1,000 per household less than any of our neighboring jurisdictions in annual real estate taxes.
Can’t blame $53,000,000 on illegals for real estate revenue decline. Might want to but that’s not realistic.
One Voice said on 14 Nov 2007 at 1:03 pm:
No brainer if choose to assume - yes. No judgement on that.
But then trying to sound innocent is insulting to the readers… that was my point.
If you take just that one part…what is it with you and Whoa? The story as a whole must be taken into consideration. Unless, of course, you assume that this person a legitimate renter in a house who’s screendoor just wouldn’t shut…who honestly forgot thier drivers’ license despite working for a mattress warehouse…who wanted to spare the policeman from doing that boring paperwork…and dagnabbit, just can’t get a handle on that whole “english” thing.
I could certainly make a case, given the story as a whole, that the probability this person was not of legal standing is staggering.
Anon at 1:01,
Did you pull that data from a link on that site or by searching the blog? Generally, I haven’t seen much data related to ethnicity. In fact, to blame an ethnic group for the current mess would probably get you your head handed to you on a platter there.
I think PW County has cheaper housing than the surrounding counties and starter homes may appeal to buyers whose finances are “iffier”. Before we remodelled our house a few years ago, we were looking at houses on the market in Old Town. There were several in the $300-400,000 range. The bank tried to talk us into keeping our home (and fixing it and renting it out) and buying another saying that we would qualify for a $695,000 note. That in our opinion was nuts! Banks and realtors are quick to try to sell you the maximum that they can. Afterall, their commission (or the interest) is larger and they don’t have to make the payments! I think too many people went for the max…and in many cases the max was still a small house that they couldn’t afford.
Park’d - that’s way too simplistic and jumping to conclusions. No, it’s because people were taking out loans they could not afford to pay back either because of the type of loan that they have or job loss/financial situation.
If that were the case, the problem would be localized to PWC only and any areas with Hispanics as you just claimed.
It’s a national issue, and in some places it is worse than others.
whoa,
Obviously you didn’t think to get her information. I have been in an accident before and asked for the person’s DL and Proof of insurance. I copied all the information down for the insurance company. I produced mine for them. It isn’t about how important I may deem myself to be…or whatever grandiose Defender of the Reich title I may have appointed myself to, it is about getting accurate information for the claims process. Please understand this is not about Hispanics, but ILLEGAL aliens!!!
The sooner we can move them back to their own country, the better off we will be.
____________________________________________________
Here is a thought for others, with the foreclosures imminent, property taxes not being paid because of no home owners, how is this going to affect the ability to enforce the laws of the land?
____________________________________________________
I think if the landlords are put on notice that all housing will be inspected for properly documented citizens this will help curb the illegal alien issue. I also believe if there is a stepped up effort to make sure the hiring areas around most 7-elevens are patrolled regularly by Police and the folks loitering are asked for ID, this too will help curb the issue.
“Just because assessments are down by x% does not mean that a municipal government’s revenues will decline by x%.”
Huh??
14% translates to $53,000,000. Fact.
This was known before the election. Fact.
Park’d - 14% is the county average - there are variances and unfortunately you are on the high end.
Tax revenues from residential real estate are a function of the assessed value of the property multiplied by the tax rate, which changes each and every year. When assessments are rising, the tax rate usually declines to mitigate what would otherwise be a huge jump in tax bills. When the assessments decline, as they did last year in PWC, the rate increased to keep the tax payments relatively flat.
If you think the current BOCS is going to sit there and take a $53 million revenue hit without raising the tax rate, you’re obviously not considering the recent historical behavior of the BOCS.
ManexicoResident said on 14 Nov 2007 at 1:45 pm:
One Voice said on 14 Nov 2007 at 1:03 pm:
No brainer if choose to assume - yes. No judgement on that.
But then trying to sound innocent is insulting to the readers… that was my point…….
I could certainly make a case, given the story as a whole, that the probability this person was not of legal standing is staggering.
Of course I agree with you - no police no license doesn’t make a person illegal.
My point was if you choose to assume as writer did, then cut the innocent me crap.
I don’t choose to assume. Either do you. Maybe you misunderstood my post.
Illegals are not the only cause of the housing market collapse in PWC but they are the biggest culprits. Real estate market conditions are very localized and depend on supply and demand in their own areas. In Northern Virginia, PWC attracted by far the largest population of illegals because housing here is the cheapest in the region and, until recently, we were known for being lax on enforcement. Combine that with unscrupulous real estate agents and mortgage lenders and you have the formula for a perfect storm to hit our property values.
Home prices are already beginning to appreciate again in Washington, DC, Alexandria, and close in areas that were too expensive to attract a very large illegal population (relative to the massive numbers that plague PWC). Even in much of Fairfax County, the market is showing signs of stabilization. When the housing construction boom ended, and with it most of the jobs the illegals had, they started abandoning the properties where they lived. This problem affected the entire metro-DC region but nowhere to the extent that it did PWC.
Even though some local markets in the metro-DC region are already improving, PWC should expect several years to get back to where we were. The market is flooded with foreclosures and homes abandoned by illegals. This surplus will take some time to clear out.
In the meantime, we need to hold the Board of County Supervisors accountable for their campaign promises to crack down on developers as well as illegals. The last thing we need (aside from more illegals) is developers continuing to build and add to the glut of residential housing we have in PWC. Further building will add to supply, prolong the time needed for our homes to recover their value, and serve again as a magnet for illegals as the developers continue to create jobs for them.
“If you think the current BOCS is going to sit there and take a $53 million revenue hit without raising the tax rate, you’re obviously not considering the recent historical behavior of the BOCS.”
Yes, they’ll raise it and their constituents will howl at the increase even though the amount paid will be about the same. Everyone knows that the value of his/her house is falling so they expect the tax paid fall.
“to fall”
This was the looming issue over the immigration resolution that you all had a field day with here. I prefer my elected official to have convictions about fiscal management. The kind of conviction displayed by Mrs. Caddigan and Mr. Jenkins - they were beaten up badly here for that.
The elected officials who have the guts to say the unpopular stuff are usually the strongest. As long as they are civil and have a little class about it
PW is cheaper, by far. That’s why you saw the influx of Hispanics and others with the past several years.
My parents live in Maryland, and a lot of the people who were priced out of the area moved outside the Beltway and to other localities in the region, such as Prince George’s County in Md, Fredericksburg, Stafford, PWC, Gainesville, etc.
It seems like the seems to be smaller and older homes in this area that are relatively affordable and are perfect for those who are just moving into their first home or something they can afford.
Trust me, anyone making under $70,000-80,0000 isn’t moving into a sprawling home in the country within this area.
Medic64, when a property is vacant, the real estate taxes are still billed to the current property owner. The exception here (as I understand it) is when a house has been foreclosed, and the owner is the mortgage holder, tax payments are deferred until the property is sold. While the revenue still accrues, it isn’t paid until settlement.
Since the number of foreclosures compared to the number of residential housing units is still comparatively small, it is probably a manageable level of deferred revenues, but it’s possible that this could amount to about $5 million for PWC, assuming about a 1% foreclosure inventory, which is probably pretty worst-case-scenario-ish. There may be an opportunity for the county to assign these deferred revenues to some sort of financial instrument and get an up-front payment for these, while taking a small hit on the net present value of this deferred revenue. If this is possible, the actual negative impact here could be in the range of a couple of hundred thousand dollars.
I could care a rat’s patootie what’s going on anywhere else. I am talking about me and my area and the reasons for the foreclosures. I am taking it hard and deep because of the illegal/Hispanic population so I have more than enough justification to feel the way that I do. I could care less about PC. I care about what I see on a daily basis and what I am subjected to. I know my town is the epicenter of the illegal issue and that I am worst case scenario here, but to say that this problem is not predominately due to the Hispanic/illegal explosion in the PWC, MP, and Manassas area is to be disingenuous for the sake of not being labeled a racist by people who aren’t able to face facts. Nuts to that crap.
*****What problems that you listed wouldn’t, in your extremely valued opinion, be positively affected if the illegal alien equation were taken away?*****
Re: Manexico Resident:
It makes me all warm inside that you value my opinion. It’s moments like this that make it all worth while.
Well… to be honest… Crime, statistically speaking wout INCREASE if every illegal immigrant were to magically disappear. =)
Argue with that all you like, but illegal immigrants commit fewer crimes than the average US citizen. People can grumble about it all they want, but stats show it to be true.
And going down the rest of the list this board makes regularly:
there are 12 million people here illegally. They pave our roads, clean our hotels, working largely in the service industry. can you imagine the impact on GDP if 5-8 million workers walked out of their jobs forever tomorrow?
Please try. It amuses me.
Park’d, the reason that many Hispanics in your neighborhood are defaulting is the same reason people all over the country are defaulting.
Looks like the houses in Belmont Station just dropped another 50 grand when I wasn’t watching ‘em. Cheapest one is now listed at $205k.
MP had better hope and pray they get that “Blooms Grove” development, otherwise, PWC is going to get a nice new fire station, police station, and elementary school.
“Argue with that all you like, but illegal immigrants commit fewer crimes than the average US citizen.”
That’s because they use a different set of fake ID’s with different names on them everytime they get in trouble with the police.
“That’s because they use a different set of fake ID’s with different names on them everytime they get in trouble with the police.”
So every time is a “first offense”.
Greg is correct about the relationship between assessed value and the tax rate. Your tax bill is the assessed value of your home times the tax rate. Your assessed value has gone down. The County will need to raise the rate to keep revenues flat, or increase a little to keep pace with population and inflation. Even with a substantial increase in the tax rate, your total tax bill will show at most a minimal increase.
This confusion about tax rates, assessed values and tax bills originated during the reign of His Royal Highness, King Connaughton the First. Sean, the ruler of deception, proudly touted lower tax rates during his reign, implying that he had lowered taxes for his loyal subjects. Only people who did not bother to look at their tax bills bought this load of BS. The rest of us watched as our taxes steadily rose, much faster than the combined rates of inflation and population growth, while he proclaimed his kinship with the lowly taxpayers.
The confusion lingers until today. Many people still equate changes in the tax rate with changes in their tax bills. Not true. The BOCS will need to raise the tax rate to deal with the projected deficit, given the lowered assessments and existing tax rates. They will be able to deal with the projected deficit and we will see only minor increases in our tax bills.
There are 12 million on the east coast alone with ease. 30-50 million is a more realistic number. Many of those are bums and soak up more resources than they give back so losing them would be great for us. For the remainder of illegals that actually do work hard and contribute, There would be a 2 year period of adjustment for corporations that have been breaking the law for the past 5 years hiring them while they found legal employees and paid a decent wage. Prices may go up in the short term, but that would be offset by the drastic decrease in local city resource utilization, i.e. hospitals, social services, jails, schools, etc etc. The transportation issues would all but be cured overnight if you took off 30 million people from the roads that have no business being there. High school and college kids that used to mow grass, work at outdoor nurseries, paint, do intern work as electricians, etc might actually be able to find work again. PLEASE, can we try to amuse you and give it a shot?
How did we ever survive WW2, build or country into what it is (or was) without the help of all these ‘hard-working undocumented workers’??
I just wonder how Ted Kennedy ever got into office without the help of all these ‘hard-working undocumented workers’??
Arizona Cops Stick to ‘Hispanic’ Description
Don’t know if this link will work.
This takes the cake. I suppose if the victim was hispanic, and the suspect were white or black, it would not be considered racial profiling.
GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311717,00.html
here’s the link again - hope it works…
Greg,
I am not savvy on the ways of real estate, I rent. I was going to buy a house during the “boom” times of the ARM. I had a personal issue come up that took most of the savings I had for a down payment and caused me to delay the transaction. It has saved my credit and me from what I can see. It is true hind sight is 20/20!!!
Would PWC be able to turn the deferred revenues into other instruments in reality?
I think anyone who says the Hispanics are the reason for the housing problem in PWC are just loons. IMHO, I think it is the lending institutions that should be to blame. I also do not feel the Federal Gov’t should bail them out. If they do, it will only feed this kind of behavior once the market swings back to the positive. I have found negative reinforcement works the best when trying to correct a behavior.
I also feel the market is making a correction for the greedy grubs that burrowed their way into the American dream!!
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I do not want a Police state, but I would like to see the current laws enforced. IMHO, by enforcing the current laws we can move PWC into a positive state of affairs!!!
The PWC real estate tax rate is FARRR lower than the MP tax rate. I pay 36 cents more per $100 assessed value than you guys. Imagine increasing your real estate bill by over 1/3 and that’s what I have to deal with. The taxes here are absolutely killing my mortgage payment and this is probably a major factor in the amount of foreclosures in this town. The Hispanics simply can’t make their mortgage payments any longer because their taxes are 1/4-1/3 of their mortgage! Since I was lucky enough to buy my house at the bottom, I haven’t lost all of my equity….yet. From where I stand, the only thing I get for my tax money is the pleasure of supporting this illegal behavior and being an unwilling participant in the greatest invasion this country has ever seen.
I can say one thing though, when I moved into this development in the summer of ‘03 there were very few Hispanics in this neighborhood. 2 years later in summer of ‘05 at the top of the value of this neighborhood is when they all moved in. The VAST majority of the Hispanics in my neighborhood bought these townhomes at the peak of their value and they have got to be seriously hurting financially now. They are -25% equity now which effectively means that they are screwed for life if they stay. If I bought this house at the top I would simply drive to the bank and drop off the keys since I would never recoup my money. The fact that the town is viewed as a slum now by anyone who isn’t Hispanic only serves to bolster the case that home prices here stand a good chance of never recovering.
Northerner said on 14 Nov 2007 at 2:08 pm:
*****What problems that you listed wouldn’t, in your extremely valued opinion, be positively affected if the illegal alien equation were taken away?*****
Re: Manexico Resident:
It makes me all warm inside that you value my opinion. It’s moments like this that make it all worth while.
Well… to be honest… Crime, statistically speaking wout INCREASE if every illegal immigrant were to magically disappear. =)
Argue with that all you like, but illegal immigrants commit fewer crimes than the average US citizen. People can grumble about it all they want, but stats show it to be true.
And going down the rest of the list this board makes regularly:
there are 12 million people here illegally. They pave our roads, clean our hotels, working largely in the service industry. can you imagine the impact on GDP if 5-8 million workers walked out of their jobs forever tomorrow?
Please try. It amuses me.
You’re cute when you’re gushing over me!!!
I can’t argue with numbers because I’m just not in the know…surely, however, some of 12 million illegals (who, by the way have already broken the law…thusly being referred to as illegal) have commited a crime and will surely do so in the future. How would removing them not mean that crime rates would go down? I understand that it would likely be a minimal reduction…but down is down. You can’t remove a contributing factor (no matter how small) and come out with a raising crime rate, silly.
“can you imagine the impact on GDP if 5-8 million workers walked out of their jobs forever tomorrow?”
Nevermind your GDP, I might actually make it to work on time.
Parkd,
You are right. I believe that many people who post here do not live in this area. I’ve always invited them to come to our neighborhood and live here for a few weeks so they can see for themselves. Of course, they will not have the guts to keep their storm door open.
Don’t give up Parkd.
To those who claim that we are racist,
I know a house that is up for rent in my neighborhood. Those of you who say we are racist, why don’t you come live here? Keep the screen door open and see what happens. There is nothing like direct observation.
Patty
You don’t even have to live there. As I have mentioned several times, I first came to this blog to see what the brouhaha was about. After reading and listening, I convinced my husband that we needed to do some drive-thrus. We did and have almost monthly since late June or early July.
I was one of those that thought this was a federal only problem until I did those drive-thrus. To anyone who thinks these folks are nuts, just drive through. I did the other day and checked on the famous yellow cape on the corner of the little Lafayette street. Looks better but not tip top.
There is some real truth to ‘walk a mile in my shoes’. You don’t have to move in, just go look.
Most humans don’t think about things ’til it impacts them. Until then, it’s easy to call them names.
Keep up the squeaky wheel…….
Park’d,
Can you and your legal neighbors go to a public meeting and voice your concern? Everyone of you go every time they meet, they should eventually get tired of hearing the same thing and fix it. I know when I have complained about things on a regular basis, they get some attention.
Patty, why don’t you describe how your neighborhood fell into decline because I’m sure it didn’t happen suddenly. Were the first Hispanics greeted as any other neighbor or were they snubbed? If they were snubbed, did a large influx create an “us v them” atmosphere? Did anyone address the first houses that appeared “trashy”?
Don’t assume that some of us haven’t lived with similar problems in our neighborhoods in the past. In my past neighborhoods, all the problems were created by whites.
Thanks Patty. I could care less if they call me racist. That word has lost all meaning to me. It has the same function in society as the appendix does in the human body which is Foxtrot Alpha or ‘F all’ as the Brits say. It ‘aint about racism when my financial survival is threatened.
Northerner,
I expect that the Hispanic crime rate is pretty much in keeping with the rest of the population and flows along the same socio-economic indicators as the rest of the population. What tends to happen is that in the Hispanic community, crime often goes unreported and things that happen there, stay there. I know of many instances where things were just settled within the community, so to speak. Again, I am speaking of local crime, not national statistics.
When crime is more likely to be reported if it crosses racial or socio-economic lines. If you rub elbows with the right crowd, you find these things out.
/\/\3|)ic 64:
To be respectful to you in case you missed it, there aren’t too many legal or non-Hispanic people left in this town. The vast majority of this town’s inhabitants want things to stay the way they are because they are either illegal or are harboring illegals. The people that live next to me are legal but they are renting to illegals. Most of the them are all in this eyeball deep. I can’t say that I wouldn’t do the same thing if my family and friends were illegal because obviously I would harbor them too so I can’t blame them for doing it or else I wouldn’t be human. Still doesn’t make it right and it’s people like me that pay the price. I never envisioned what would happen to this town back in ‘02 when I signed those new home papers or else I would have run as far and as fast as I could to Reston or Centreville.
I’d like to know some background about the debate and actually would be willing to do a drive through as well. The problem is not prevalent where I live, but I know of what you are talking about. Alas, the problem is also the demographics around you have changed and whether or not you can get some or all the illegals out, things will never go back to the way it was.
My stance is that there is no easy way to resolve this issue, no matter what happens. I am not trying to be an apologist; however, I’m trying to see the issue from both sides. Like anon-too brought up, has anyone just simply tried to talk to those who the neighborhood has issue with?
Give us examples, as to what problems have come about? Are we talking crimes, housing upkeep, graffiti, etc?
I try to be pragmatic, as I am a minority, and I am sensitive to what is going on.
/\/\3|)ic 64: - this all happened within 4-5 years?
“The fact that the town is viewed as a slum now by anyone who isn’t Hispanic only serves to bolster the case that home prices here stand a good chance of never recovering.”
I think it would be interesting if someone (or multiple someones) ran for City Council on the platform that if elected, their first act in office will be to dissolve the City of Manassas Park by the legal means set forth to do so.
Fair and Balanced -
I listen better by reading. When I first came to this blog, I listened to two people, Patty and Lafayette. I know they have spent hours taking photos, meeting with county officials and pursuing all legal existing avenues mostly with zoning. They are a wealth of informaiton. Lafayette has a photo album, perhaps someone could provide the link again.
Just think of this - a house with an abandoned pool with a tree growing out of it. A tree??!!!
House after house with the screen door propped open, ovens in the front yard so many cars around the house and street it is a pedestrian nightmare. Drunks sleeping in yards.
This is not the same as the rednecks with cars on blocks
Drive through parts of western Manassas behind Irongate. See for yourself. That is how I learned and decided not to judge the folks that were living in this nightmare.
Also, another factoid - 42% of kids in ESOL programs in PWC are SECOND generation. There are some classrooms in Manassas City and PWC where barely any of the children speak English. That is simply not good for the children. That is the issue that should be pushed by groups like MWB and activist like Nancy Lyall. This is not good for the children.
*****When crime is more likely to be reported if it crosses racial or socio-economic lines. If you rub elbows with the right crowd, you find these things out.*****
Dolph:
It’s an appreciable theory, but I don’t think it accounts for most of the difference. Fact is, illegal immigrants have an added incentive to keep their noses down. If me, at 15 wants to go shoplift a pair of jeans, I know that if I’m caught it’ll mean community service and an apology. Whereas people who fear being forced out of the country have greater reason to stay out of trouble. And that, according to the studies I’ve read, is more what counts for the lower rate statistically than a failure to report (in addition to underreporting, which I agree, does occur)
Manexico:
I guarantee that you would feel an impact beyond a quicker ride to work, were they to leave permanently. And that would be the loss in output, the loss in growth, the loss in money circulating. We’d ALL feel that.
Northerner
park’d: If you know your neighbors are renting to illegal aliens, why don’t you report them? I know about being neighborly, but if the behavior has no negative consequences, it will not change. This is simple Psychology 101. If you are not trying to help solve the problem by reporting those who are breaking the law, how can you voice concerns about the neighborhood going down hill? Doesn’t your lack of reporting this also make you part of the problem? I am saying this with the utmost of respect and tone. (c:
_________________________________________________
I would like to read where people did something about what they know to be wrong. I live in Westgate Apartments and there is a family in my building that has 10-15 people in a one bedroom apartment. I have complained and the management did an inspection only to find the renters in compliance. The problem here is they announced the inspection. Of course they will be in compliance, LOL!!!!
Not only is it not fair to my neighbors and myself, we all share a laundry room which is hard to get into because the machines are running constantly, it is also a safety hazard. Firefighters will be expecting a certain number of occupants in a 1 bedroom apartment and 15 is not that number. I speak as a certified paramedic / firefighter with some fire inspector / investigator experience.
Manic - to whom do you report illegals renting? Do you report the illegals or the owner or both. And to whom?
Let’s be fair. Sudley is an almost 40 year old neighborhood. Westgate is even older, by about 10 years give or take. Of course there are changes, some even for the better, like mature trees, and fewer hordes of kids running all over the place.
Some of home definitely look better. A few definitely look worse. The major problems are overcrowding in SOME houses (and all that goes with said over-crowding), the streets lined with work related vehicles, and some houses are in ill-repair. There are vacant houses.
In any older neighborhood you will find more rentals. That is just the nature of the beast. There are fewer white collar folks moving in. Given the job market in the area, this makes a lot of sense. New white-collar arrivals move to new neighborhoods with more buying incentives. I don’t resent this because my house payment is probably 1/3rd -1/4th of theirs. I had the option several years ago of cashing out. I chose not to do this because of the hassles of moving, not wanting a much larger house payment, and not needing a huge house since my children are grown.
I am sure that people who live in similar neighborhoods can tell of similar changes.
“park’d: If you know your neighbors are renting to illegal aliens, why don’t you report them?”
Overcrowding and similar issues in MP can be reported to:
Ron Winder, Deputy Director, Bulding Planning and Zoning @ 703-335-8866
If you want to talk to him in person, he’s at almost every City Council meeting.
Wow! I will post this one piece of useful information for now.
Zoning & Overcrowding Complaints.
PWC 703-392-7018
City of Manassas 703-257-8424
City of Manassas Park 703-361-1136
(Yes, it’s the MPPD Non-Emergency number)
I urge ALL to pick up the phone and report violations, and any and ALL suspicious activity. The government only knows about the complaints we call in. They do invested within 7days in the county.
Police Non-Emergency Numbers
PWC 703-792-6500
City of Manassas 703-257-8000
City of Manassas Park 703-361-1136
Please, use these numbers.
One Voice,
I will be posting new pictures to my albums. I will be posting pictures of the inside of the yellow cape you spoke of. BTW-There are several blocks to Lafayette, and even into the Sudley. You were on THE BLOCK though!
For your viewing pleasure….
http://community.webshots.com/user/Lafayette13
Not updated yet, One Voice. I will let you know.
corr
they do INVESTIGATE within 7 days in the county.
They invesitgate w/in 7 days — thanks to you they do.
I think it’s time to start ignoring the leeches that come to this site to cause trouble. They don’t live here, and their only goal is to throw insults around and be contentious.
Awesome guys! I already have a letter on its way to my condo association about my next door neighbors and their people coming and going dropping trash in my yard and stealing my 2nd parking spot which belongs to me. I have been a good sport about it until now but the gloves are off with these guys. I don’t think they are in violation as far as the number of people since I am pretty sure only 2 families live there with 1 child each but there are young men coming out of that house from time to time so I think they may have either family members or guests that squat there from time to time as well. They seem to be very nice pious people but they just don’t respect me or my stuff - it’s just a cultural issue.
jfk
That’s why the IGNORE BUTTION comes in handy.
Try it, you might like it. Several of us regulars use it, and really like it.
corr
IGNORE BUTTON
Once again here is what the pro illegal alien lobby is really about. The vidoe’s say it all.
http://noborderscamp.org/en/no-borders-videos
One voice, I reported it to the apartment manager. They scheduled an inspection and found nothing out of the ordinary. Again, they announced the inspection, so people were not there for a couple of days. I think just because they do not see a bed, they assume no one else is living there. Obviously they are either rolling out sleeping bags or using aerobeds.
Opp’s- video’s
Boy, it’s been a long day! Oop’s
The value of property grew at dramatic rates as the Hispanic population grew. Anytime that many people move into an area regardless of race values will increase. When they depart or deport depending on your perspective the reverse is true, values drop. The prices in Westgate amnd Sudley went up and drove the prices up in the new communities. Now it will fall.
Yes the Mortgage Brokers are at fault, I am not sure Realtors can legally ask too many question without getting trouble.
As for impact on the community my Neighbor sold his house and moved to Heritage Hunt, in moved a group of hispanics.
They had people living in their sheds, washing dishes in 5 gallon buckets and parking in the front yard. I have never seen a white or black family rent out room in their shed. Sorry that dog don’t hunt. It is an issue of conflicting cultures, not racism.
If I move to a new country I would respect their traditions, customs and culture. I would learn their language and not expect them to learn mine.
Billyboy,
Glad to see you are back! I bet Patty’s glad too.-lol
I hope you’re sitting down, sir.
I agree with each and every word above. I have many thoughts along those very same lines. I will be going into detail a little later. Do you have that email fixed yet?
Little Ms. P.
In Mexico there is little respect for the law, corruption is expected, taxes are evaded.
If there are only a few Mexican immigrants here they are hemmed in by the anglos who obey the law.
But when immigrants have agents who are also Mexican then they can collude, with the aid of a few corrupt whites who would normally not be able to put a scam across, to avoid laws and taxes and to raise mortgage costs and taxes for the remaining law-abiding citizens.
Billy Boy,
Welcome back. You have hit the nail on the head. I totally agree with you and will have to say, you summed it up best. And yes, it is cultural.
ManexicoResident said on 14 Nov 2007 at 3:00
“can you imagine the impact on GDP if 5-8 million workers walked out of their jobs forever tomorrow?”
YEP, The companies that hire the illegals would hit the road too or pay a decent wage to an American or legal immigrant to stay in business.
Billyboy said on 14 Nov 2007 at 5:11 pm:
If I move to a new country I would respect their traditions, customs and culture. I would learn their language and not expect them to learn mine.
BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT.
What’s the problem with the Latinos doing the same?
/\/\3|)ic 64 said on 14 Nov 2007 at 5:00 pm:
They probably are sleeping 6 to a bed.
“can you imagine the impact on GDP if 5-8 million workers walked out of their jobs forever tomorrow?”
Hmm, most of these are low wage, low skill, and hence, low value jobs.
“Anon at 1:01,
Did you pull that data from a link on that site or by searching the blog? Generally, I haven’t seen much data related to ethnicity. In fact, to blame an ethnic group for the current mess would probably get you your head handed to you on a platter there”
It is easy to see exactly who is being foreclosed on. Just go to the housing bubble website which lists the latest high discount recent sale homes (homes that sold for a certain amount less than 3 years ago that are now for sale for a substantial lower price). 99% of these are foreclosures and at least 75% are hispanic homeowners. To find that information, jot down the addresses and look them up on the county website where you can see homes that are now owned by the banks and also see the previous owners.
One item of interest to me (especially since it happened to our old home) is that in almost 50+% of the cases, the homes were not just sold once in 3 years but 2 and sometimes 3 times. In almost every case, a hispanic surnamed person bought the house in 2004-05 and sold it a year later to ANOTHER hispanic surnamed person for a considerably higher price.
This I think is the key to the ponzi type scheme (although it is legal). You buy a house, using a hispanic realtor who helps you every step of the way and the agent’s sister/husband/brother is the mortgage broker who helps you with an ARM loan. You buy knowing you can’t really afford it (and adding other names to the loan to qualify), but it doesn’t matter. You find some renters to help you make payments for one year before the rates go up, then your realtor calls you up, telling you it is time to move and make some money and that they already have a buyer. They list property and sells it to someone they know for a much higher price. You take the money you make and buy a bigger house. The buyers of your house can’t afford it either, but the realtor and her relative mortgage broker convince them that they will also be able to sell for more in a year. So they also get renters to help make the payments for the year. These aren’t normal buyers because they didn’t search the market looking at houses to see what they could afford. Instead they were “put into the house” by the agent who by now has made 4 commissions off of you as well as her relative mortgage broker who has made 3 commissions.
Everything works fine, until the market turns sour. Then the last buyer is left holding the bag, with no renters (due to the construction slow down), no hope of making the new payment, and so they skip town or move in with relatives.
Meanwhile the realtor and her mortgage broker husband/sister/father/mother/uncle have made almost $100,000 on commissions.
This is the only thing that can explain why a house always went from hispanic to hispanic.
/\/\3|)ic 64 said on 14 Nov 2007 at 3:44 pm:
I live in Westgate Apartments and there is a family in my building that has 10-15 people in a one bedroom apartment. I have complained and the management did an inspection only to find the renters in compliance. The problem here is they announced the inspection. Of course they will be in compliance, LOL!!!!
Report the problem to the Fire Marshall’s office when you know everyone is “home.”
anon 14 Nov 2007 at 6:50 pm:
If this scheme you described is legal, how can it be made illegal?
It is destroying the economy and neighborhoods. Some folks are laughing all the way to the bank and some of us chumps are just sitting here wondering what hit us.
Billy Boy,
We’ve seen public urination and drunkeness - not necessarily in that order. One man would get drunk and walk to my house, stagger, turn around and go back home (@@20, you know the one Lafayette). One day this man just couldn’t quite make it and passed out in the yard across the street. A passerby thought this man was having a diabetic reaction. Ha, Ha, Ha!
Oh, I forgot about the ones giving the kids a bath outside in the tot pool in the front yard. Made me wonder what happened to the bath tub inside the house.
What I can’t figure out is all the wires hanging outside of the house going from window to window. Does anyone know what that is all about?
Billy Boy, I hope you’re not going to call me names. We all live in this crazy neighborhood. So let’s try to pull together to make it better. Okay.
Hispanic is not a race. Hispanics can be black, brown, white or native American. So it’s not technically possible to be racist against Hispanics. More immigrants tend to be non-white because they tend to be poorer in Mexico and Central America. The white Hispanics tend to be more well off and so have less or no reason to immigrate. Many of the cultural flash points with illegals here has less to do with race and more to with poverty.
anon said on 14 Nov 2007 at 6:50 pm:
One item of interest to me (especially since it happened to our old home) is that in almost 50+% of the cases, the homes were not just sold once in 3 years but 2 and sometimes 3 times. In almost every case, a hispanic surnamed person bought the house in 2004-05 and sold it a year later to ANOTHER hispanic surnamed person for a considerably higher price.
……and it continues. Look at the reality signs at the places that have been foreclosed and the places the Latinos are trying to dump and you will see the majority of them are being serviced by Hispanic agents. This situation has been ongoing for the past 2-3 years. Some of these houses never got advertised as being for sale. The were passed on with the Latino community.
Correction to last — They were passed on within the Latino community.
Patty said on 14 Nov 2007 at 8:56 pm:
What I can’t figure out is all the wires hanging outside of the house going from window to window. Does anyone know what that is all about?
Bet it is UNIVISION in every room. Gotta keep in touch with “home.”
anon on 14 Nov 2007 at 6:50 pm:
YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD WITH THAT POST. I saw everything you mentioned go on in my neighborhood exactly like you said. Some people never moved into the houseafter they bought it because they re-sold it two weeks later for a 20,000 dollar profit. Saw this happen twice on my street as I knew both original owners.
John Locke said on 14 Nov 2007 at 10:59 am:
Well Mr. Locke, one thing about your “diagnosis” is most interesting…it explains a lot about Jimmy Young.
Patty,
We have disagreed but I don’t think I called you names. If I did let me apoligize.
Lil Ms P,
It’s giving me fits. I have been on the run, playing hit and run on bvbl just trying to keep up to speed.
Greg L said on 14 Nov 2007 at 12:34 pm:
Is lawbreaking only acceptable when it involves a racial or ethnic minority?
Law breaking is acceptable with the PWC BOCS thinks it is. Why do you not talk about how the Korean Dry Cleaners have gotten some how the Counties of PW, Fairfax and Montgomery to pass zoning ordinances to stop any dry cleaner from opening up that is over 3,000.00 sq ft. This is done to stop the fixed price dry cleaners for opening up. Of course that means that every time you pay more then 1.89 per item you get shafted and the KDCA member get more money. Do you believe that all that revenue is reported on their tax returns ? SURE !!! Restrant of Take is legal now in America.
Why is it that the BOCS allows the County to take the citizens money to file for a Zoning Variance to the set back provision on a house if you need or want to add a car port or garage knowing that they will not and can not by law grant such a variance? The county takes in about 500.00 for each such request. If a business man did that they would put them in jail for fraud…
Oh the BOCS did pass a specail ordinance so that structures for Horses, Tractors and Jackasses do not have to follow the set back rules that humans do.
Why is it that a white man is granted zoning approval to build 21 houses in Stewart’ Lake Ridge but at the same meeting a black man is told he can not get a vote to build 20 condo units in Gainsville. When it was approved the black man had to reduce the number of units to 18 and one of the 17 units had to be sold at a discount of 33% for affordable housing. I guess our White Northern Chairman thinks he does not discriminate SURE !!!
Bob wills,
What does any of your post have to do with illegal aliens? This sounds like big dog on another thread, seems the black folks are realizing that illegal immigrants are taking the spotlight from them so they have to start thumping their chests again. Get over it! You are an American, just like most on this blog. It is time to unite and fight the war on illegal aliens. Blacks have gained their position in society. If you do not think so just look around, quotas for higher education, a black entertainment TV station, Black Miss America and other things. It is time for the black community to get over the oppression argument and join forces with ALL LEGAL US citizens and fight this war of illegal aliens. One voice will sound louder than only a few!!
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/SuperModels/CreditPainIsGainForASelectFew.aspx
I have Directv and was going through the channels and hit upon the 400s. I could not believe all the Spanish channels. No wonder Hispanics aren’t learning English.
Miami has formed its own task force to deal with mortgage fraud. Obviously we have similar problems here in Northern VA. Obviously this is a national problem.
All,
There are a lot of illegal practices going on in the mortgage business, and the blame can be spread around, they know and help each other to land the loans because they all make money. One that I see in the Fairfax Cty area is Fairfax Realty, primarily an agent with yellow signs named Lucia Vasquez, yes I’m naming her, because I sent her an email detailing what we observed with most of her sales, some in my neighborhood and the surrounding areas of Mt Vernon. We informed her that we are asking the authorities to investigate her practices because its obvious what is going on. She consistently guides what appears to be illegal occupants into the housing market and once that house is in that segment of the population (Hispanic), it seems to go from person to person. Those same houses become boarding houses with too many occupants, with many going into foreclosure. We are not letting this happen to our neighborhood, the homes were reported to Fairfax Cty’s Enforcement Task Force and corrected. Illegal immigration and not just Hispanics, but Africans, Middle Easterners, Asians and Occidentals are greatly responsible for a large portion of the sub-par mortgage failures and the use of false documents to obtain mortgages. This is all a part of what illegal immigration is about, and its nothing moral about it. Illegal immigration is about money and how much one can gain during their stay in this country, by hook or crook. Those who want to inject race into the matter are either uninformed or playing on Americans sympathy for those less fortunate and our underlying guilt trip. Hispanics are first to inject race into the subject and when that doesn’t work, they throw the “I cut your grass or I help build some houses”, they can’t get beyond the color of their skin. Hispanics are the most visible because of the way they ignore the law, you don’t see other illegals as groups, marching and asking for rights they know they don’t have, Hispanics seem to think Americans owe them something. Here is something to ponder, America is a Federal Republic of Laws with States Rights and ultimately, this will correct the illegal alien problem. We are seeing this as we argue with each other, its a great time to be alive, to see our country adjust, to correct a major problem. Excuse me for any misspellings, this really pisses me off.
There are also ilegal aliens working as real estate sales people in Washington, DC. Washington, unlike California or New Jersey, does not check for legal status to issue realtor licenses.
Hey Rich, You are so correct, I work in DC in an Environmental Crimes Unit and you can guess where the illegal businesses we close, cater to, illegal immigrants. Yes, there are many fake real estate companies that have their whole teams, including mortgage companies, home inspectors, etc., making sub-par loans to people without proper documents or fake documents. DC is truly a sanc. city. We even see the businesses that ship money out by fax machines to the payoff guy in many Middle Eastern and African countries, matter of fact, we caught one the Friday after 9-11. Its mainley legal money made from gas stations, carryouts, etc., then by passed our financial laws to their home country, these are turned over to the FBI. Its bad in DC when it comes to illegals.