You have given a very valid eye full of information. I am only sorry that this post is towards the end of the threads and more people will not see it.

The down side of mainstreaming needs to be underscored. I agree, the regular classroom isn’t the least restrictive environment for some kids. Laziness, lack of knowledge, lack of personnel and manipulation on the part of the special ed in-school administration seem to be the cause of this happening.

I have had some very serious disruptions over the years because some idiot seemed to think that 15 ld kids in a class of 30 was the way to go. The parents of these children are also being lied to because their IEPs are only being followed to the minimum. The real help they need isn’t being provided, can’t be provided in a class of 30 with one aide who doesn’t know the content material.

Some of the ED and austic kids can also be very disruptive and keep other kids from learning. Any attempts by the teacher to change the student’s placement is met by that old special ed cop-out: Least restrictive environment. (sing-song all-knowing voice) Oh BS. Translation: I don’t want to have to deal with this little bastard so I will bully you into keeping him in YOUR class where he is keeping 25 other students from learning…..

Oh I could go on and on…..

Thank you for speaking up.

There are instances where inclusion and immersion can be just plain awful for all involved. I stongly believe that children should be taught in the least restrictive enviroment, that does not always mean that being in the so called “regular classroom” is the best placement. Somewhere along the way the child’s best interest can be thrown to the side and those involved in the child’s education plan turn the situation in to a tug of war and nobody, especially the child, wins. As a teacher there are only so many pieces you can cut yourself into and there is a point at which the classroom becomes ineffective for ALL CHILDREN. All teachers not a specialist in areas of the learning disabled, mentally impaired, autistic or any number of other disabilities. I am constantly reading and searching for ways to become more informed and learn more about teaching SPED or ESOL students. There are times when we feel like a failure because we have not been able to help a child make as much progress as everyone wants. However, we try to remember that there is only one of us and 20 something of them. Teachers are being asked to do more and more with less and time and no money. We have to think about teaching reading, writing, math, science,social studies IEP’s, SOL’s, FLE, and let’s not forget bathroom monitor, playground referee, nurse, and any other job that pops up. I don’t want you to misunderstand and think I am complaining. I love my job and especially the children but let’s be reasonable. There comes a time when there is to much added to a teacher’s plate and it becomes over crowded. When a child needs almost constant one-to-one teaching or disciplanary attention and is cast into the pool with children that can work more independently everyone suffers. This is when administrators, teachers and parents need to really focus on what will help the child, SPED or ESOL, make the most progress educationally. Forcing a child into a classroom can sometimes do more harm than good.I am saddened that a SPED identification has become taboo instead of a signal to others that a child learns differently and needs to be instructed in a different manner. The best way to help all involved understand the whole SPED or ESOL ball of wax is by educating them. Workshops for parents, administrators, teachers and the community is one way of doing this. So instead of nit picking some of you might want to consider attending a workshop, spending a day in an elementary classroom or even reading about these two educational programs.

Anonymous 6:26 was not me. I don’t think that person understands that all kids need different learning environments suited to their ability and best academic potential. It is an idiot concept to think that all people are created equal in IQ, so we do all children a great dis-service to their full learning potential when we try to lump them together, assume they have the same IQ because that makes us feel better socially and teach them the same thing. Average education creates average kids. The rest of the “technically” educated world knows that superior education creates superior kids and wealthy superior societies. We need to spend our money accordingly.

Starting in 2005 all students are taught in the regular ed classroom in english and ESOL services being offered part of the day in Spanish or other common language. If a child is from a language that is not common they can request to attend a school that specialized in that language for an introductory period but typically is less than 1 or 2 months. When a child is registered for school they are given a proficiency test to determine their skill set. They are assigned to a grade that is both measured for their proficiency and age appropriate. However the child is never assigned more than 1 grade or 1 year from their current age. PWCS has worked over the past few years to decrease the identification of ESOL student into the IDEA program. However, it still happens and in my opinion it happens too much. The regular ed teacher is overwhelmed and since the child is not performing at grade level they are sometimes tested under the “learning disabled” classification for IDEA. If they are not proficient at English then chances are they are not achieving in other subject too which can result in over Identification.

Additionally, the county thinks this is best for the child in assimilating them into the regular education classroom with ESOL support from day one (partly to parental demands) but it sets everyone back as I have previously stated (Teachers are spending more time with the student and not with the rest of the students, more aides having to be used to “co-teach” the class, child not be accepted by their peers as smoothly as they should, stresses of an overburden staff, etc). The school system should invest in a test immersion program and see what results it achieves. I think they will be pleasantly surprised to what happens. There are several programs and studies that prove that the immersion program garners better results than the current program PWCS uses. We are using a program that does work however the results take 2-3 years to achieve while the immersion programs cut that in half or more. We need to discard the people that demand that these students not be separated from the regular classroom and I agree with them but only after you give this child a fighting chance of succeeding by giving them English Proficiency as a tool for success. Everyone wins then and I promise you will also have cost savings to boot also.

Just my Thoughts-

Why would you want a bright child to mark time and get bored while the teachers are focused on the disabled and less bright kids? Is that fair to the bright child? Just think about what we are throwing away here when we neglect the bright child and assume he’ll be OK and leave him to his own devices. The bright child deserves a stimulating and challenging education and that can not happen with mainstreaming.

All children need an educational system that is best suited to their capabilities. That is NOT meant to imply however that primary focus should be on those who have the most difficulty learning.

I know that many parents want their learning disabled child right there, mainstreamed along with the rest of ‘em, and I can understand those feelings.

However, there are limits; let’s not try to make mathematicians out of children who because of learning disabilities simply can’t comprehend, but their parents want them in that algebra class. It’s not even fair the disabled — how hurtful it must be to those children who are forced to struggle with that which they just simply can not comprehend.

So, instead of fine-tuning our educational system, let’s just forget about it all and fund pre-kindergarten for four-year olds, what you say?

What do you propose to do with special needs children? How would you educate them, or would you?

Why are there so many “special needs” children? Because that’s where the money is!

It has been that way for the past 50 years. Where have you been?

This myopia in our feel good local civil rights radical and “inclusion” leadership is why the greater focus of Asian, Indian, and European school systems on student IQ and talent and superior “technical” education rather than “social” education is going to produce far superior societies in the near future for those nations.

We will see a tidal wave of relative ignorance sweeping our nation and the outcome will be a greatly impoverished society, proud of being politically correct.

Which would you rather be poor and equitable, or wealthy and smarter?

Wait until the impact of Asian, Indian, and European intelligence and superiorty REALLY starts to compete with us.

We can smugly say we gave 1 student in the class an equal life to the other 30 intellectual and competitive knowledge failures.

You are correct. You did not use the term ESL. However, both ESL and ESOL are used interchangeably. I will use the more up to date term, ESOL. Various names have changed so many times it is hard to keep up with what is old and what is new. Changing the name does not change the program. The program changes from year to year as new mandates and new challenges surface.

I don’t believe we are referring to the same Prince William County Schools. I do not recognize many of the practices you describe. I am curious as to your source of information. I have nothing more to say other than what you have described has not been my experience working in Prince William County Schools. I find that very odd.

Please look back at my post and you will only see ESOL in my statements. It was annon that used the term ESL. ESOL and ESL are different programs and differing approaches to teach children from other countries.

The problem with the ESOL program is that after only a few months (sometimes as short as a few weeks) they are put into regular education classes and are only pulled out for reinforcement. Many experts say it takes 5 -6 months average of daily instruction to get a child proficient enough in English to assimilate into the regular education classroom without complications but sadly they are not getting even half that time. If they would keep the child in an immersion class until they are proficient then the impact on the regular Ed teachers and other students in the class would be minimized which helps all involved. The student learns english and transfers into the classroom smoothly, is accepted by the other students, has a teacher ready to handle them and saves everyone money since they are taught along with all the other students with no additional IDEA cost associated. Since that is not the practice, currently the teachers are spending 10 - 30 % of their time attending to these ESOL students because of the language issues. As to the native language issues– When a child is processed into the PWCS system majority of them are from Spanish speaking backgrounds. They are taught almost 80% in Spanish from day one with only 20% being in English. They are taught all the subjects primarily in Spanish except for English language class—that is taught in English. If they are from another language country they are shipped to roughly one of eight schools around the county but put back in their assigned school as fast as possible. It seems this is done even if the child is not ready for the transfer. Again, if the program PWCS uses was a true immersion program then they would only learn English until they reach proficiency in reading and speaking English no matter how long it took. After then they could start learning the other subjects in English.

As for the special ed and ESOL programs being different programs– You are correct. Both are under separate budget departments and budget lines. Both special education and ESOL have differing policies and procedures. However, I never said they are the same–you inferred it. The two programs often are used simultaneously as a way to get the child out of the regular Ed classroom while at the same time drawing upon additional funding. I submitted that ESOL student are often classified “learning disabled” so they can receive additional services. The regular Ed teacher gets additional assistance when they have an IEP student in their classroom. This reclassification is on the rise lately and it is occurring even more frequently since schools are require to make reach certain standards each year and having passing SOL’s scores from all students. Each school that has IEP students get additional resources including but not limited to: Reading the test to the student, translating the test for them and longer time allotments. The schools are spending even more money in an effort to put as many students under the IDEA (learning disabled) program.

I do hope this has clarified my posts.

Just my Thoughts-

You are correct. I would say ESOL if I were at work since that is the more up to date term. I was deferring to Mr. Barton’s terminology. However, ESL and ESOL are used interchangeably still and everyone knows what everyone else is talking about.

ESOL students are sometimes put into classes before they are fluent enough in English. The policy seems to change from year to year and probably depends on the school.

Just wanted to point our that you’re both a little behind the times. PWC no longer has ESL. It’s now ESOL (English for Speakers of Other Languages).

ESOL in PWC has varying levels of English competency. When possible, ESOL students are placed in a “regular” classroom for the bulk of their instruction and have supplemental ESOL assistance. Those with no English fluency are taught in self-contained ESOL classes until they are fluent enough to be added to the regular classroom. While some statements made by ESOL teachers may be in the native tongue of the student, the classes are not taught solely in their native language. The goal of ESOL classes is to make students proficient in English.