Another Crime In A “Gun Free Zone”
By Greg L | 11 January 2008 | Crime | 54 Comments
There’s yet another story of a local bank robbery at a bank that has decided that the best way it can ensure the safety of it’s customers is to prohibit any of them from entering with a lawfully carried defensive firearm. Putting a “no guns” sign in front of these banks has curiously, but not unexpectedly made them the preferred target of criminals interested in robbing them of depositor’s money. You’d find no better way to advertise that a bank is an easy and safe target for bank robbers than to tell them that everyone in the bank is disarmed and has no means of fighting back against a predator.
Oh, pardon me, the preferred term now I think is supposed to involve making “undocumented withdrawals”. We don’t call criminals, well, criminals anymore.
From the MJM:
Prince William County police are investigating a bank robbery at BB&T at Dillingham Square shopping center that happened around 10:47 a.m. Thursday, police said.
Police have released shots of the robber - described as a Hispanic man in his 30s or 40s - taken from a surveillance video and are asking anyone with information about this incident to call police at 703-792-6500. Callers do not have to give their name.
BB&T is one of those local banks that has a “no guns” sign up in their window, which legally prohibits law-abiding gun owners from entering with a lawfully carried firearm. Surprisingly, those wanting to make “undocumented withdrawals” don’t seem to worry about violating that rule about firearms in addition to violating rules about bank robbery, using a firearm in the commission of a felony, and so on. It shouldn’t come as much of a shock to discover that only law abiding people who wouldn’t pose a threat to anyone are the only ones deterred by such signs.
The practical effect here is that banks which post “no guns” signs end up inviting criminals to prey on their branches, which puts customers at significantly higher risk. Although the intent is to make everyone feel safer, the actual result is to increase the chances that a criminal will select that particular location for his next predation. Although harm to customers is a fortunately rare occurrence, anytime you put a desperate criminal in close proximity to the public, the risk of bad things happening is tremendous.
If you bank at BB&T or Wachovia, you are out of your mind. You might as well be consistent and start frequenting biker bars, since at least then you can be amused while you endanger yourself. At BB&T, you’ll be bored senseless while doing so.
I haven’t highlighted any of these disturbingly frequent occurrences lately, but this is not at all unusual, as you can see below.
No Guns, More Crime
Is BB&T Getting Another Object Lesson?
Any More Questions About Guns In Banks?
Another Bank Robbery
BB&T Again Proves Cause And Effect
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It looks like the robber’s best defense will be that the “no guns” sign wasn’t posted in both Spanish and English…..
You watch to many westerns
If I were going to rob a bank, I would prefer to go to one with a “no guns allowed” sign. I do think that this is an invitation to robbers and let’s these would be bank robbers now that they would be an easy target.
Being a second amendment kinda person, (whooda thunk?) when another local business (a national video rental chain) did the same thing, I went inside, spoke to the manager, politely explained my position in reference to his sign, gave him my membership card, told him I would not be frequenting his business anymore and would be encouraging everyone I knew to take their business elsewhere. The sign came down three days later. Money talks. Crooks don’t go where they might have to fight for loot. They are cowards.
I recently changed to Wachovia. I haven’t seen any signs in Hampton Roads. Maybe they wised up?
Theres no such thing as a gun free zone
I’m with Greg on this one.
Potomac Mills Mall has “no guns” signs on all of the entrances. IMHO, these are “welcome terrorists” signs (considering these troubling times we live in.)
One person that I know carries a Sharpie and adds the word “legal” to the sign so that it reads:
No Legal Guns
The robber’s best legal defense is that the “no guns” sign was posted in English only.
Well, the crooks don’t seem to think so.
It’s funny, but my favorite jewelry store has an armed guard who looks kind of scary and I feel safe being there and dropping my valuables off there with them. Most banks don’t have armed guards any more (at least, that I see) and I do feel uneasy when I have to visit my branch, since there seem to have been a fair number of bank robberies in recent years.
Silly “no gun” signs on businesses do worse than nothing because criminals ignore them. Do people actually have them? That’s dumb. I’m not sure what they hope to accomplish other than becoming targets.
Oh, and funny story but true. Several houses on my friend’s street were burglarized. Being in grad school, he didn’t really want to have to put in an alarm and add another expense. Besides, it didn’t stop others from losing their stuff. The burglars were quick, in and out, so an alarm did little good. They were coming in through patio glass doors. So he put up one of his better shot-up man targets on the door facing out so it would be in plain view to burglars. Guess whose house wasn’t broken into?
You know, that Sharpie you talk about could EASILY be turned into a weapon
With respect to the “too many westerns” comment you may want to think about what sort of world-view you form based on Hollywood.
Real violent crime in the “old west” was exceptional in its relative rarity.
Bank/train robbers achieved the notoriety they did because there were so few of them.
Given the high percentage of ex-Civil War soldiers and veterans of the Indian skirmishes in the frontier, its foolish to believe that citizens of the “old west” would tolerate much lawlessness when they were so used to arms.
An armed society is indeed, a polite society.
“Johnson said on 11 Jan 2008 at 1:54 pm:
I recently changed to Wachovia. I haven’t seen any signs in Hampton Roads. Maybe they wised up?”
Wachovia just got robbed in Arlington.
The argument has been made about advertising ” come and get me”
but also a sign is NOT going to protect you are banning guns. IF a person has a mission, more often than not they will find away.
I can’t help but to compare it to a protective order ( A PIECE of PAPER)
I know Greg might have a stroke but he is more right then wrong on this posting. Of course we all have the right to tell the place of business that we are not coming back as they are inviting the potential for the customer to be hurt or worse.
In DC the criminal just puts on a security guard uniform, walks into the bank and asks for the pick up that day and walks out with over 300K. No gun needed
redawn said on 11 Jan 2008 at 5:10 pm:
Exactly right Protective Order NOTHING more than a piece of paper. We’ll never forget the lady in Point of Woods that was killed by husband/booyfriend. I can’t believe that been almost a decade ago. I just gotten my Protective Order, and this incident sure didn’t do anything to give me faith in the Protective Order. I must say though when the threat on my life was maded. They sure did pick his a$$ up pretty damn quick and put him behind bars where he deserved and deserves to be to this day.
redawn
too many errors to correct. Please, figure out.
Lafayette,
Of course I figured it out…Manassas dialect…just kidding ( I typed “are” instead of “or”)
Johnson,
Bob Willis is talking about Wachovia
Well, if I was in a mall shooting I would appreciate an experienced person with a gun taken out the shooter. Might save some lives. I don’t consider arming college students wise simply due to the environment. (lived in a dorm for four years).
Again, this goes back to rights. The business is allow to restrict what they want like smoking.. whatever, but they pay the consequences.
If a crook smokes he/she will think twice before entering a no smoking establishment with a lit cigarette. They don’t want to get the nannies on their case.
One Voice,
My wife is a “college student”. She’s got 3 kids.
Doesn’t she deserve to have a chance to defend herself?
Anyone who relies on the police, signs, or protective orders needs to watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkS8mdbml0A
mnd,
Thank you, for the youtube. That was quite a compelling clip.
She was well within HER rights to defend her self. I do not rely the above mentioned. I’m glad to see there were NO charges brought against this woman. I say GOOD FOR HER!
Lafayette,
For further reading, see “Castle Rock v. Gonzales” and
“Warren v. District of Columbia”.
In short, the United States Supreme Court held that the police have no affirmative duty to protect, nor does the presence of a restraining order or protection order create a special duty to protect.
When seconds count, the police are just minutes away. (Or hours, in the case of Warren)
mmd
I assume your wife lives at home? That was the point.
One Voice,
Sure she does. She’s got to drive to NVCC though.
How about soldiers going to school on the GI Bill?
When you say “armed college students” you may be thinking of 18-19 year olds.
I’m thinking of those students 21 or older who are permitted by law to apply for a concealed carry permit.
Yes, I am thinking of armed 18-21 year olds that live on campus in dorms. I thought I qualified the dorm environment in my first post. Not too many Moms of three in a dorm. Although, from what I recall, that might appear to be a vacation!!
Congratulations to a busy Mom of three taking that on!
hey Greg, did you pick this?
they should prohibit all the firearms in the united states!
because who ever carry a gun, try to intimidate others.
I hope you do not bring your firearm and kill the people at 7 eleven in manassas. (workers)
you love intimidate people (latinos) you think that you have the power, I do not think so,you are not stronger than God.
Anonymous,
People don’t carry guns because they’re showing off. They do so because they want to be left alone. More specifically they do so because they wish their interaction with others to be restricted to reason, not force.
This fellow says it better than I can:
http://munchkinwrangler.blogspot.com/2007/03/why-gun-is-civilization.html
I think a Good person, a normal customer do not bring guns everywhere!
prohibit not ….”smoking” is not the same THAN “GUNS PROHIBITED”
SMOKING IS A REQUIREMENT THAT EVERYBODY RESPECT, BUT WHEN SOMEBODY WANT TO ROB A BANK ,YOU DO NOT have A CHOICE.
IT CAN BE A REQUIREMENT BUT NOT A CHOICE.
I hope they do something about it.
I take it, Anonymous, that you would prefer that everyone carry a machete? I’m not big fan of guns myself, but I support the right of law-abiding citizens, of legal age, to make that decision for themselves. As we’ve seen with the proliferation of gangs in this area, there are plenty of deadly weapons that don’t go “boom!”
Anonymous,
All law abiding adults are responsible for their own safety. As the links I’ve posted above show, there is no guarantee of safety by the police.
Intelligent adults engage in risk mitigation. Carrying a defensive firearm is part of the strategy of risk mitigation, just like purchasing car insurance, and keeping a fire extinguisher in the kitchen.
I’m a “normal customer” of every business I enter. If I’m wearing pants you can bet I’m armed.
AWCHENEY,
I hope IT works , what I’m saying is that you have a choice in smokers, but not in bank robers. because they just go inside without asking you. do you undertand now?
well, that,s fine.
Hmmm…Gracias for the heads-up. I will speak with the local Wachovia branch manager and get the low down. Do all Wachovia branches have the sign? I carry concealed (job requirement). Never see a uniformed officer in a bank, we’re trained to use the drive thru. Excellent point by Greg, though. Besides lack of common sense, I don’t see how these signs would attract liberal customers. Perhaps they don’t want armed customers taking action during robberies? I worked as an unarmed security guard for First Virginia Bank in Falls Church back in the ’80’s. We didn’t go into the branch unless asked to, which was never. Our employees were trained to comply with demands and be good witnesses. I would love to see our liberal contributors hang those signs on their front doors. A conservative is, indeed, a liberal who’s been robbed. Lots of unemployed illegals looking for an easy score!
We give police a lot of training–months and months worth–to teach them how to handle a weapon properly in stressful situations. I don’t really trust Joe Sixpack to make those same choices. Really, the last thing I need is to be in the bank, have some bonehead start to rob it, and then have a bunch of mouth-breathers all whip out their guns and start banging away, pretending to be Dirty Harry.
I can’t trust my fellow citizens to drive properly, why on earth would I trust them with guns?
You may all now return to your well-regulated militias.
Joe Curmudgeon,
I hesitate to post a story from the New York times, but here it is:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/weekinreview/09baker.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
The fact is that the % of shootings where a “bad shoot” takes place is lower for private citizens than it is for the police.
Likely the reason is that the police arrive at the scene after the fact and must make quick decisions regarding who is the “bad guy”. Armed citizens face fewer quandaries as most of the situations they respond to are based on the fear for their life in a situation where the attacker is easy to identify.
An armed citizen has every incentive to engage in training and to obtain an understanding of the law as it pertains to use of deadly force as the cost of failure is quite high and they lack the immunity granted to agents of the state, who will likely face nothing more than disciplinary action in the event of a wrong decision made in good faith.
In short, you’re making a “blood in the streets” argument that has been disproven 39 times (at least, that number being the number of “shall issue” states.)
See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry
Pay attention to the time lapse image showing the adoption of “shall issue” by the various states.
Joe C-Minus the “Mouth breathers” and “Joe Six Pack” comments, a good analogy. I’d still rather have a gun than not. Believe it or not, not all gun owners are neanderthals, just as all people who fear inanimate objects are not complete idiots, the operative word being “complete”. That being said, the point is that criminals fear to go where there are guns and people who will fight back.
The driver analogy was a good one! No, the majority of gun owners are not joe-six packs or neanderthals, but unfortunately those are the one who likely think they can handle just about any situation. Reference the Darwin awards….
mnd: Do you have a source for this statement: “The fact is that the % of shootings where a “bad shoot” takes place is lower for private citizens than it is for the police.”? I couldn’t find it quoted in the article. I would love to see a source for this–one that gives actual numbers (and not just the percent, to ensure that the private citizens number doesn’t suffer from “small-n statistics”)–and describes exactly what they consider a “bad shoot.” I’d be willing to change my opinion if the statistics bear out.
The number of concealed carry states doesn’t sway me much. Currently, there’s a stigma against carrying guns, so there’s not gobs of people doing it. I don’t have a fundamental problem with the current situation of concealed carry laws that are exercised by rather a small number of folks. What I do have a problem with would be if a large proportion of my fellow citizens suddenly started packing. I would not want to live in such a country. Living someplace where you don’t HAVE to be armed, seems to me to be a good thing. “An armed society,” the NRA tells us, “is a polite society.” But I’m not sure that politeness that arises out of fear that angering your fellow man might result in you getting a cap popped in your ass in necessarily the greatest sort of politeness.
It may not be the greatest form of politeness, but I’ll take it. Let’s face it, the “Golden Rule” is gone. People will treat you how they want to unless you tell them how you expect to be treated. There is no stigma against carrying guns, as shown by 39 states, unless you are a liberal. How would you know how many people are carrying CONCEALED weapons? You don’t have to be armed in Canada or England, denounce your citizenship after you settle in, please. Seriously, take responsibility for you and your loved one’s safety. Doesn’t have to involve a firearm, but “Don’t bring a knife to a gun fight.” It’s all about personal responsibility in all aspects of your life. There are certain situations where you have to decide to act or suffer the consequences. I hope that you act, for you and your family’s sake.
Joe,
http://wc.arizona.edu/~wildcat/papers/89/104/03_1_m.html
“Don B. Kates Jr., at the St. Louis University School of Law, found that while police were successful in shooting or driving off criminals 68 percent of the time, private citizens did so 83 percent of the time. Moreover, 11 percent of the individuals involved in police shootings were later found to be innocents mistaken for criminals, while only 2 percent of those in civilian shootings were so misidentified. Private citizens in urban areas encounter and kill up to three times as many criminals as law enforcement personnel (”Gun Control and the Subway Class,” Wall Street Journal, Jan. 10, 1985.) The reasons are simple: Private citizens who carry firearms are far more likely to know who the “good guys” and the “bad guys” are, since they have generally witnessed the situation from the beginning. Police, called to the scene well after trouble has started, don’t have that advantage.”
Joe Curmudgeon : “An armed society,” the NRA tells us, “is a polite society.” But I’m not sure that politeness that arises out of fear that angering your fellow man might result in you getting a cap popped in your ass in necessarily the greatest sort of politeness.
Actually, it’s not from the NRA…
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
- Robert A. Heinlein
I only disagree with one thing said here, that criminals tend to shy away from robberies or crime where another is armed. If this were true then armored car holdups would not happen, and neither would bank robberies where an armed security officer is there. If they want it badly enough, they will take the risk.
That being said, I carry everywhere I go. Those armed Security people you see at banks and in jewelry stores are ordered to get out of the way and call police in the event of a robbery, not interfere with it. They are for show only. I know this because I worked for several of the companies in the past, and I will not rely on one of them if my life is in danger. The concealed carry classes do a decent job of preparing you for carrying, but IMO a person needs a good bit more experience than what you get from those classes. Many of us are prior law enforcement or military and have that experience, but I would encourage the average citizen to learn the law and practice at the range often.
Been on this planet for 82 years and only needed a gun WW2.
Thank you for your service.
Anonymous,
Sadly, if we knew the day we’d need one I think we’d all decide to either stay home or bring friends (with rifles).
As I pointed out above it’s a matter of insurance and risk mitigation.
Nobody desires to an opportunity to use their fire extinguisher, nor does having one available for use mean that you expect to need it. (I’ve got 4 in the house and one in each car though because when I *need* one I’d better have one.)
The world we live in today is very different from the one you grew up in. Liberal judges put criminals back out on the street with little or no punishment. The state mental health system closed the mental asylums in the 60s and 70s resulting in a large number of dangerous folks left to their own devices. We’ve repeated the mistakes of Prohibition in our handling of the “War on Drugs” which has given power to gangs. Various misguided gun laws, originating in fears of the 1960s civil rights movement, and the 2 Kennedy assassinations have made gun ownership more onerous for the law abiding citizen, which only emboldens criminals. And our immigration policies and weak defense of the border, not to mention the amnesties of 1968 and 1986, have encouraged unlawful entry into our country by opportunists and criminals from a culture with little respect for the rule of law.
Thankfully trends in the late 80s, fueled by better communication technology in the 90s, have brought about sweeping changes in most states that permit citizens to carry handguns for self defense.
I hope to be able to reach your age with my firearms being used against nothing more sinister than paper targets at the range.
MND-well put.
Anonymous: “Been on this planet for 82 years and only needed a gun WW2.”
…and I’d love to have the gun you had in WW2.
Thanks for your service.
es_la_ley,
The CMP has a very limited number of M1 Garands available and a number of M1 Carbines. Sadly 1903 Springfields and 1917s are gone.
http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/index.htm
Your Virginia Concealed Handgun Permit and a current membership in the VCDL are all you need to satisfy the training and club membership requirements. (Military or ex-Military need neither.)
*Sarcasm alert* (for those that are a little slow)
I wish we could just out law guns all together…then we could be more like DC.
Ummm, BTW…where does DC rank in the US as far as gun related homicides?
Ted Nugent summed it up the best. Out lawing guns in DC is like when a farmer has issues with coyotes sneaking into their barns and killing their cats….they simply declaw the cats.
Well, with the economy as it is, we can expect more burglaries, robberies, home invasions as thieves go back to stealing the old stand-bys, high end electronics, various types of commercial paper, identity docs and gold (which was up to $900 per ounce last week). Btw, my dad was a WW2 vet and a competitive rifleman. We used to compete together. My brother and I inherited his collection.
Not to go off topic, but there is something to the “greatest generation” label. Something we’ve really lost in America.
Dear God!
Why won’t those banks put up “no guns” signs in SPANISH???
This is a clear example of xenophobia. After all, we cannot
be “tolerant” unless we participate in our own destruction.
Everyone who has NRA stickers on their vehicles……………I worked a number of burglary cases where the homes that were selected to break and enter were based on gang members seeing NRA membership stickers on vehicles, and following them home to find out which house they could target to get weapons.
It was a clever way to find guns. They would know the logical locations of weapons, and what time the homeowners came home from work. Please remove the stickers to avoid becoming a burglary victim.