Jackson, I Told You So
By Greg L | 14 January 2008 | Illegal Aliens, Virginia Politics | 93 Comments
I’ve been having a long-going debate with my friend Delegate Jackson Miller about the business community and the illegal alien problem. His contention is that with so many small businesses suffering terribly because they’re competing with those who unlawfully hire illegal aliens, that community would certainly be supportive of legislative efforts the reduce the number of illegal aliens. This makes sense, as I’ve heard from quite a few business owners who have expressed their frustrations over this situation which essentially punishes them for following the law. I’ve been telling Jackson however that the business community is controlled by the big companies, many of which benefit from cheap illegal labor, and they would predictably be actively hostile to policy reforms that would make it harder for businesses to profit from cheap illegal alien labor.
Well, I think I’ve proven my argument, and Miller’s somewhat blind support of the business community is coming back to bite him. If he thinks he can placate both constituents and business interests on immigration policy, that’s going to be an awfully tough dance to perform.
Case in point: the big businesses in Virginia joined together in the “Virginia Employers for Sensible Immigration Policy”, the VESIP, and are hard at work trying to defeat any and all legislation that would make it harder for Virginia businesses to make a buck (or a few million) from the illegal aliens they exploit at the expense of American citizens. This well-funded lobbying group includes Charles Griffith of Smithfield Foods (who is also one of Governor Kaine’s appointees on the Virginia Commission on Immigration), Bob Redmond of the Virginia Hispanic Chamber of Commerce and Hobey Bauhan of the Virginia Poultry Association. The latter two spoke at the Commission on Immigration on January 4th and laid out their policy position, which essentially boils down to the business community is hostile to any and all attempts to prevent employers from hiring illegal aliens.
Redmond and Bauhan presented what the VESIP considered their “core principles”, which included the following:
Actions by the Commonwealth to enforce immigration laws that interfere with employment relationships, suspend business licenses or impose mandates on businesses other than those already created by the Federal government are counterproductive, anti-business and unfair.
Oh, like it’s unfair to demand that big-business interests in Virgina actually comply with federal labor laws. Given their horrendous track record on this issue, the only uncertainty I have is why there isn’t greater clamor to have these wanton lawbreakers put in prison for an extended duration. The penalty for knowingly hiring illegal aliens is ten years in federal prison, and scarcely any of these reckless lawbreakers have ever been sanctioned with even one day in the federal pen. Actually impose this, or any penalty for that matter a few times, and these reprobates might start to wise up about the benefits of actually following the law. Right now, the employers get a bunch of federal preemptions and loopholes that make it incredibly difficult for them to be held accountable by anyone other than the Federal government which has displayed no interest whatsoever in enforcing our laws. Their intent here is clearly to ensure that employers can recklessly hire illegal aliens without fear of consequences, regardless of the consequences those decisions impose on the rest of us.
After presenting this inane diatribe of illegal alien apologies, I understand that Delegates Todd Gilbert and Jackson Miller were none too pleased that the Virginia business community had decided to weigh in in support of their continued ability to match someone who cannot be legally employed with someone who cannot legally employ them, while benefiting from the currently lackadaisical enforcement efforts exerted by state and federal law enforcement. When they challenged these spokespersons about what they might be willing to work with the House of Delegates on, they had no answer, essentially confirming that Virginia business is all about getting cheap illegal alien labor, and unwilling to recognize the harm this causes to small businesses and low income wage earners who are being cut out of the labor market due to the price distortions that illegal aliens in the labor market create. This situation especially impacts minority communities, and the Virginia Chamber of Commerce, a VEISP member, apparently doesn’t care about that at all. Big surprises, all around. Hardly.
Jackson Miller has a tough choice to make between his pro-business allies who have been co-opted by those who profit from illegal alien labor and his constituents who are demanding relief from the impacts that these pro-business advocates impose on our communities by facilitating the continues unlawful presence of illegal aliens in our communities. Judging from his reported reactions, he recognizes that while the business lobby comes with a lot of dollars, the constituents come bearing the votes that those dollars seek to influence, and votes are more important than the dollars. It’s time for Jackson Miller to throw these illegal alien apologist business interests aside, and give the voters who elected him their undivided attention, as any backpedaling on his campaign promises regarding the illegal alien problem are certain to be received with overwhelming outrage by those who elected him to help solve this problem.
It’s time to get engaged, folks.
The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.
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The statesman who should attempt to direct private people in what manner they ought to employ their capitals, would not only load himself with a most unnecessary attention, but assume an author-ity which could safely be trusted, not only to no single person, but to no council or senate whatever, and which would nowhere be so dangerous as in the hands of a many who had folly and presump-tion enough to fancy himself fit to exercise it.
Adam Smith
The Wealth of Nations, Book IV, Chapter II
I doubt, Ducky, that Adam Smith was suggesting by that quote that he sanctioned the violation of immigration laws. A little out of context, wouldn’t you say?
I love the quote “…while the business lobby comes with a lot of dollars, the constituents come bearing the votes that those dollars seek to influence, and votes are more important than the dollars.”
The Republican former members of the Loudoun County Board of Supervisors made the mistake of assuming that developer money would deliver citizen votes.
Having a representative of Smithfield Foods on the Virginia Commission on Immigration makes as much sense as having a junkie on a drug task force.
Why is that? I see no reason that businesses shouldn’t have a voice in such significant matters.
What happened to the old saying, “What’s good for biznez is good for ‘Merica!”
So we banish illegal farm labor from the country. Who picks the vegetables, works the poultry farms, etc?
Tax evasion, unsrupulous ethical behavior and questionable political connections have been the norm for businesses in the US for decades. Last time we the people took on business with any enthusiam was in the early 1900’s. Mills, coal, steel….. Bet a good union could zap these employers and find them some new employee’s if necessary.
This is where it’s gonna get complex.
AWCheney,
The other day you wrote a post to me explaining why there needs to be a complete halt on immigration from a purely economic standpoint. It was interesting and food for thought. I read it through because you did not villify the humans who are doing what they feel they need to do to survive. You seem to be an economist. If we did halt immigration, what would the plan be for agriculture, poultry farms, etc, as Veteran asked above? Do you favor a guest worker policy?
Jane D’oh! said on 14 Jan 2008 at 7:25 am:
Having a representative of Smithfield Foods on the Virginia Commission on Immigration makes as much sense as having a junkie on a drug task force.
…..or a butcher in the hog house.
Veteran,
Veteran,
I suppose America would just waste away without illegals.
Jackson has said in the past that he is not a rubber stamp. Well, now is the time for him to prove that.
veteran said on 14 Jan 2008 at 8:26 am:
So we banish illegal farm labor from the country. Who picks the vegetables, works the poultry farms, etc?
AMERICANS!
999
Agree that US citizens will now have the opportunity to move themselves from the ghetto and rural US and pick them; it’s the reolcation of those many people that might be an issue - somehow I don’t see families wandering the country as Tom Joad did ……
Of course getting them off welfare first might be an issue. They are not likely going to give that up for the opportunity to drive to California or S Florida to pick vegatables. I assume that this is the group of citizens that will replace the illegals. If not, who?
We have guest worker programs already. First kick the illegal aliens out, next offer all of these jobs at fair wages to U.S. Citizens. If they don’t want them, then INVITE guests from around the world to come and do those jobs on a guest worker program, where they go home when the crops are picked or the job is done. Employers would be responsible for their health care, not the U.S. Citizens and they would not be eligible for any type of government handouts.
Charlotte said on 14 Jan 2008 at 8:42 am:
Do you favor a guest worker policy?
What is YOUR interpretation of “guest” worker? A guest is someone who is invited and then leaves.
Ahhhh Adam Smith
In 1776 The Wealth of Nations was published. In 1778 Smith was appointed to a post as commissioner of customs in Scotland and went to live with his mother in Edinburgh.
Apparently he thought it prudent for the government to remove some of the take from the invisible hand of business.
I sincerely doubt that Adam Smith would have resisted British immigration law as a form of “…directing private people in what manner they ought to employ their capitals…”.
Starry - I think that’s how this started.
I don’t think the US will sink, I don’t subscribe to illegals take jobs no one will do but I am curious about who you think 999 and Citizens of Manassas will be interested in these jobs.
Depending on the season, it would be great for students. I would like to see welfare recipients working rather than doing whatever they do all day…. but not sure how this will work. Transportation, relocation…..
Just moving beyond the responses to the implementation. Like we ask our politicians to do. How’s that going to work?
starryflights said on 14 Jan 2008 at 9:11 am:
We have guest worker programs already.
EXACTLY! This was the way the system worked before we were invaded prior to 1986. The amnesty bill of 1986 only increased the flow of illegals into this country and you see what we have today. This country issues millions of various types of visas (including agricultural) for entry to this country but corporate America is not satisfied with this and welcomes the illegals. Bill Gates (founder of MICROSOFT) made a statement recently that the U.S. should remove the visa quota and allow anyone who wants to come to this country to work, to do so. A good example of a “brain” with no common sense.
California sunk by illegals - a warning to us all, if we heed it
http://www.alipac.us/ftopict-98340.html
I’m familiar with a small Southern city that has seen a large influx of immigrants (legal and otherwise) in the past ten or so years. In the Sixties the local immigrants were limited to a couple Filipino families and several Saudi families connected to the jute trade. Now most of the immigrants are from Mexico. Many were recruited in Mexico by the carpet mills and chicken processors in the area. After the Atlanta Olympics and the construction boom that it created, many workers just followed the jobs a bit farther north. (I’d bet the Feds were more interested in getting the Olympic Stadium built than they were in checking iimmigration staus.)
The carpet business experiences the same economic ups and downs as the housing industry…plus it has the added factor of what the style magazines promote as fashionable. The popularity of hardwood floors= tough times for the industry in its residential sales unless they can turn out area rugs and engineered flooring (or in bedrooms in mass-produced housing). Commercial sales are probably more stable. This doesn’t seem an area where seasonal workers would solve the problem. The mills operate at high capacity for as long as they can. They may run at peak for years before hitting a slump. (As for the other local industry, chickens are killed year round.)
Mill operators have tried to recruit in neighboring states, even paying the future employees to relocate. Most of them don’t stay. The residents my age didn’t go to work in the mills as their parents and older siblings did. There is definitely a worker shortage when the good times roll.
I imagine Smithfield experiences the same thing. A small processing plant may employ the unskilled laborers in the surrounding area, but a huge plant will need to search farther for employees. We, too, are part of the problem because we create the demand for cheap chicken and carpet. We aren’t willing to pay the price to keep the local mom-and-pops in business. Sure, we may buy from Rice’s but I’d bet the average person spends more money at Home Depot (or Wal-Mart).
Greg, you’re once again sounding like a liberal! At least according to the Club for Growth types. I happen to agree wholeheartedly with you. A populist bent has really taken over the voting public as people are sickened by business as usual. Too many big corporations are fleecing the average citizen while their execs pull in millions, even when they screw up royally. Especially with oil supply issues, we simply cannot grow grow grow our way out of every economic problem. We need to be more sustainable - and that’s not a dirty liberal word, in fact I would call that the conservative stance.
Ducky,
I don’t believe that illegal immigration or unscrupulous businesses that exploit and encourage it are good for America.
veteran,
I don’t think we can get an honest assessment of what is needed in terms of manpower if we keep the status quo–which is what the VESIP apparently wants.
We need to first enforce our laws and then make adjustments for bringing in temporary workers as needed if we do, indeed, have a labor shortage. Some industries can modernize to reduce their dependence on manual labor while others may need to bring in workers.
The responsibility for those workers MUST be the businesses though. As it is now they reap the rewards while passing the costs onto the rest of us.
Local, state and federal governments ought to take a look at what they’re doing to contribute to the problem as well. Is the cost of doing business in America becoming too high with all of the rules and regulations they are supposed to comply with?
Rather than lobbying for cheap, illegal labor that is harming our country, I’d much rather the VESIP put their efforts toward reforms that make doing business in America with American workers more attractive.
One Voice,
Unfortunately, I don’t think that unions will be much help on this issue either as they tend to see illegal aliens as potential dues-paying members.
I’d have to look it up but I’m pretty sure that some unions, along with the US Chamber of Commerce and the ACLU recently banded together to halt “no-match” letters from being sent out.
Nothin’ like a good Union. They would solve the health care problem as well. If immigration doesn’t bring them back, health care will. Getting rid of illegals will bring back the unions and for the working man or woman, it might not be such a bad deal at all.
And while the legal guest workers are picking fruit, they can send money BACK to their own country, where their DEPENDANTS ARE. It’s tough to make a living in Mexico for many people. Everybody understands that. I don’t care if migrant farm workers enter on a legal visa. That is why America is the land of opportunity. If it is necessary to spend six months a year away from your family in order to provide for them, that’s a choice for the individual to make. I don’t care to feed, clothe, educate and medicate their entire families out of my pocket. That is the individual’s responsibility. They are taking advantage of our generosity, laughing at us because they think we’re too weak and spoiled to do without them. Their government supports them with words, but nothing else. They’re both wrong.
For a true free trade economist, there needs to be the free flow of the three pillars of economic production–the goods produced, the resources to make those goods, AND the labor to put it all together. From a purely free-trade economic point of view, guest worker programs, etc., are a sound economic idea and go hand in hand with eliminating tariffs and subsidies. Note that when the EU admitted Poland and other former Eastern Bloc nations, there were similar concerns from the more well-off European nations that the sudden influx of cheap Polish labor would destroy the economies of Britain, France, and Germany. This has not happened and should serve as a case study for the free movement of labor among the United States, Mexico, and Canada and an example for expansion of our existing guest worker and temporary visa programs.
This argument, however, is irrelevant to the current illegal alien debate. Yes, we do need to address the overall economic policy goals for the free movement of labor across borders, but that is a discussion that should take place separate and apart from the discussion of what to do with those who have migrating in contravention to the existing law and to what to do with those who hire these people who are present in the United States illegally. The fact that our current policy may be flawed does not give license to subvert the authority of existing laws. The *key* motivating factor for the majority of those entering our country illegally is the promise of lucrative work. So long as America businesses are will to hire illegal workers, we will have an illegal alien problem. If we deport a million illegal aliens a month, there will be a million in line to replace them as long as the promise of American dollars from American business exists. As I have posted before, it would be far more effective to strike a blow to the businesses that encourage the influx of illegal immigrant labor than it is to try to deport those who follow that promise. It is, however, more politically expedient to go after those who don’t contribute millions to the campaign coffers (millions, I might add, “earned” on the backs of illegal workers). Who is more likely to face the wrath of the US Court system–Juan who works at a Smithfield Foods meat packing plant or Charles Griffith of Smithfield Foods (which has given over $700,000 to Virginia candidates since 1996–76% to Republican candidates–according to VPAP.org)? Now ask yourself, who really contributes more to the illegal alien problem?
Turn PW Blue
“Charles Griffith of Smithfield Foods (which has given over $700,000 to Virginia candidates since 1996–76% to Republican candidates–according to VPAP.org)? ”
But the sad fact is that Charles Griffith would flip on a dime to donate $700,000 to Democrats if they’d been in power. These business guys give to whoever the decision makers. It is vote buying and nothing else and they are not stupid when it comes to hedging their bets.
Jane D’oh! said on 14 Jan 2008 at 10:22 am:
I’d have to look it up but I’m pretty sure that some unions, along with the US Chamber of Commerce and the ACLU recently banded together to halt “no-match” letters from being sent out.
It was the TEAMSTERS UNION.
Johnson said on 14 Jan 2008 at 10:38 am:
And while the legal guest workers are picking fruit, they can send money BACK to their own country, where their DEPENDANTS ARE.
Agricultural workers are allowed to bring their families with them under the H2A? visa program.
These “guest workers” should not be able to have children born in the U.S. become U.S. citizens either.
After all is said and done,it’s the neighborhoods that really are suffering. It won’t be long and we will have many shacks and sheds that will house the illegal aliens.
We will start to look like Mexico and a decent wage will be hard to find.
Taxes will be so high that an average Joe will not be able to survive.
Is this what we want for the greatest country in the world?
I have been getting mail about this union agreement between Canada, U.S. and Mexico. Apparently Pres. Bush signed this 3 years ago and by 2010 there will be a super highway going from one place to the other starting in2010.
The Western part of the States are hearing all sorts of info. They claim they will be losing their homes and farms.
Have you heard anything on this?
Thanks.
Jane -
My husband was a member of the Teamsters for years. They were not fans of illegals. I think Unions would take care of it. They would equate illegals to scabs. Think we might have to disagree on this.
I read an interesting article about the Wine industry “illegal” alien labor issue.
An average “illegal” alien (legal aliens and legal residents won’t do the backbreaking work either at these wages),
can pick about 1 ton of grapes per day. An extremely aggressive, young and MOTIVATED illegal can pick 2 tons of grapes in a LONG day.
The average NON-MOTIVATE (read desperately poor) legal worker can pick only 1/2 ton per day, and many will quit on the first day and go home at lunch never to return.
Apparently you have to be desperately poor to want to do this work for these wages.
And what are the wages? $100.00 per ton.
So a desperately poor “illegal” alien worker will make $100-$200.00 per day, and work 4 straight months, bringing in about $3000-$6000.00 per month wages, and go home with $24,000.00, enough to feed and clothe an “illegal” aliens family for a whole year (equivalent to a wage of $50,000-100,000.00 per year or MORE in some countries.
Here’s the dilemma, a legal worker who is not well trained and desperately poor, can only make $50.00 per day, or $1500.00 per month in this environment, or $6,000.00 per year AND must pay taxes AND must live off the US economy for the entire year. NO-ONE can live off $6,000.00 per year, even the federal poverty wage level is about $25,000.00 or so right?
Sooo… who is abusing who? Making the big businesses pay “legal” workers minimum wages ($5.75-$8.50 in 2009) or about $50-80 dollars per day and getting only 1/4-1/2 of the same crop in means that the labor of a “legal” worker is 2-4 times more expensive than an “illegal” worker.
In large business farms this is a differentce in “millions” of dollars not in their pockets OR wine that is 2-4 times more expensive than it is now.
Personally I’d rather have the more expensive wine than deal with the reality of world poverty living next door in an abandoned “foreclosed” house this year.
Legal immigrants have always been abused in history by big business owners who fought for the lagal rights to abuse them by making sure they had access to the cheap labor.
Now “illegal” immigrants are abused even more. The only way to stop this abuse is to prevent “illegal” aliens from getting jobs like this, AND stopping the big business employers from hiring them, as they attempt to send the rest of the small business owners to the poor house in a new world poverty.
There is NO labor shortage. There is only a shortage of “illegal” people willing to be abused that are desperately poor and willing to work for wages no one in our country can live off of.
THAT abuse is what Democrates and Republicans need to fight and prevent.
I agree with Michael. And one way we can get this done is to start questioning “day laborers” hanging around the day labor sites to provide documentation concerning their legal ability to work in the U.S. This can be done by ICE.
We had a guest farm worker program (until 1964 I think) at one time until that was abused by the large industries. We also had soldiers (Marines) who went to the Carribean and further south to quell worker uprisings and bore arms to enforce big business banking interests in the plundering of the land and resources that were being stolen by internal criminals and gangs, and uprising workers. There was also almost a federal coup (1900s?) where the military General Officers were asked to march on the White House, should the President fail to enforce the interests of these large banks.
We have a guest worker program now, its called a “work” VISA. Under a “work” visa, however you are not desperate enough or poor enough to work these unbearably cruel jobs for unbearably little wages.
Anyone everr read about the History of the Russian CZARS and why the people rose up against the “government” 3 different times in their history, or WHY the French revolution occurred? If these labor conditions and “illegal” conditions exist much longer there will be another “uprising of the poor” against the government.
“illegals” now just don’t want to go home anymore, they want to stay even if they are not entitled, and even if it “significantly” harms the rest of us to help just a few of them.
Vigilant1 said on 14 Jan 2008 at 12:33 pm:
Jane D’oh! said on 14 Jan 2008 at 10:22 am:
I’d have to look it up but I’m pretty sure that some unions, along with the US Chamber of Commerce and the ACLU recently banded together to halt “no-match” letters from being sent out.
It was the TEAMSTERS UNION.
SORRY. It was NOT the TEAMSTERS UNION. It was the AFL-CIO.
http://www.wlj.net/editorial/102207_california_judge_halts_immigration_enforcement.htm
Concerned Woodbrige said on 14 Jan 2008 at 1:17 pm:
I have been getting mail about this union agreement between Canada, U.S. and Mexico. Apparently Pres. Bush signed this 3 years ago and by 2010 there will be a super highway going from one place to the other starting in2010.
The Western part of the States are hearing all sorts of info. They claim they will be losing their homes and farms.
Have you heard anything on this?
It is true! Read this article:
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=14965
One Voice- There are several unions that support illegal aliens the most notable one being the AFL-CIO. Maybe the unions would be stronger if they fought harder for their American workers!
THE HIGHWAYS ARE BEING CONSTRUCTED FROM MEXICO TO CANADA AS WE SPEAK.
Michael, in the case of the carpet mills I mentioned earlier, I think there was at one point a labor shortage - the point when the economy , particularly housing, was booming.
Most of the South had/has a distinct anti-union stance. I think that textile manufacturing flourished there for that reason (as well as having a ready source of cotton). Wages were lower although they may have looked good to a sharecropper, subsistance farmer, etc. (The only people I knew who made a nice middle class living were the owners, managers, and engineers.)Now, if the cost of labor gets too high, the companies threaten to move some or all of their operations out of the country. China is a threat even to the carpet mills.
I think people in the US are exposed to the same culture of desire country-wide thanks to tv, videos, movies. We all want, want, want but aren’t interested in doing the dirty work some of our parents or grandparents did. How many of you would be coaxed into a forty hour a week job, insurance included, that involved working in a dust filled factory or digging ditches in 20 or 100 degree weather for $15 or $20 an hour? These textile industries aren’t subject to union demands (for the most part) and still many, many of them have closed. Their competition comes from China. They are not going to pay their employees more when their profit margin, obscene or not, is threatened from overseas. They are going to look for the cheapest labor they can find.
|McCain, Hillary, Obama & all of the Democrats, plus Liberal Media and the rest of the open Border pro-illegal Aliens supporters professed & false compassion for Illegal Aliens is sicking. This Nation has 47 millions citizens without medical insurance, Million of our elderly chose between food and medicine every day. Millions of American children live in poverty with no chance at the American dream. Our vets. return from the war that came about by lies from Politicians without proper medical care or treatment. Yet they shower rewards on the Illegal Aliens, free medical, free schooling for their many children, no reward is too great or price to high for the American citizens to pay, for the ones that break our laws, invaded this country and demand their rights while waving the Mexican flag and Slaughtering, Raping and Robbing thousands of American Citizens each year.
The Corrupt Politicians and Liberal Media try to get the public to believe they are Compassion, & Wise for wanting open borders and amnesty. While American Citizens are racist & xenophobe if we request that our Constitution and Immigration laws be followed and enforced for all law breakers irregardless of race or nationally!
It is the money they get from business from supplying them slave labor with 20K worth of benefits paid each year by the tax payers and the Latino votes with the promise of millions more if we give them amnesty that they are really after.
If they really are Compassion and Caring there are Millions of American Citizens that have played by
the rules, payed their taxes, obeyed the laws, fought the wars and built this Nation that are in great need. The Politicians could use American Citizens to show their Compassion. But Compassion for American citizens or legal Immigrants does not get Money and Votes for our Corrupt lying Politicians.
You “pro-illegal” people don’t understand that POVERTY is a function of how little money large businesses pay the average worker a wage that prevents POVERTY. The worst offenders in history were the political elite, the Presidents, the senators, the business moguls, the large corporate share holders, the social elite, the Kings, the Queens, the Princes, the Dukes, the Duchesses, the Knights (did you know they were actually PAID thugs, who robbed the farmers and field peasants of any wealth they had?).
Around the world, the peasants were always forced by the “government” (the elites in government), to work ungodly hours, under unbearable conditions, with life and limb always threatened, and for almost no pay, or any wage sufficient to allow them to break out of POVERTY.
Under these conditions the “people” always took back their government, in some form of worker uprising.
The Chinese people revolted against the cruelty of the CHIN, HAN and MING dynasties (millions of people died in the fields and on the great wall before these uprisings), the Russin pheasants rose up against the CZARS at least three times from low wages (and sadly started communism), but no leader could sympathize and prevent the unbearable living and working conditions, The french revolted, the BOARS revolted, and the AZTECs revolted against the oppression of the Spanish. Whenever people revolted against leaders who abused them, other even more cruel leaders (Like Stalin) filled in the gap as the criminal element rose to power (like in labor unions, and city politics)
Only a democracy has been able so far to prevent such criminal leadership outcomes (a Congress is a powerful concept in world peace), but not prevent abuse by presidents, kings, dictators, and military men (Alexander, Hannibal, Ceasar, Napolean, Hue, Ming, Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Huessein,
and now corporate leaders of mega companies that control world finance and power.
Poverty is a result of people of wealth wanting more wealth, and caring little about the unbearable conditions and wages paid to the desperately poor.
The fix in history has never been HIRING more “illegals”, that has always led to even more poverty in every country whose elite passed laws to exploit the desperately poor.
The fix is to prevent the hiring of “illegals” and forcing big “elites” in charge of companies to pay higher wages to the entire community (which actually lives in the country), and to keep the growth of the community of poor from growing, by REDUCING IT IN NUMBERS!
The fix for the “poor” of other countries is to keep them in that country to rise up against the “government” of corrupt business elites in that country and force them through labor laws and wage negotiations to pay higher wages until the entire community of that country can live off the economy of that country. If you don’t believe this, ask the Chinese, the Russians, the Jews, the French and the other nations who have suffered under the laws of the rich what happens when you don’t force busines owners to pay workers what they need to live comfortably, and what happens when the governments of those countries continue to be allowed to “import” desperate workers.
THE HIGHWAYS ARE BEING CONSTRUCTED FROM MEXICO TO CANADA AS WE SPEAK.
Isn’t that the I-5? It’s been around for about 50 years.
From Wikipedia…
Interstate 5 (abbreviated I-5) is the main highway on the West Coast of the United States, paralleling the Pacific Ocean from Washington to California and serving some of the largest cities of the western part of the country, including Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego. Its odd number indicates that it is a north-south highway. Its southern terminus is at the international border between the United States and Mexico in the San Diego community of San Ysidro, California. Its northern terminus is at the international border between the United States and Canada at the Peace Arch in Blaine, Washington. I-5 is the only Interstate highway to touch both the Canadian and Mexican borders.
My last comment was regarded by greg’s filter as “SPAM”, whatever set that off, so I’ll just wait until he figures that out and deletes the lines picked up by the filter.
the short version:
You “pro-illegal” people don’t understand that POVERTY is a function of how little money large businesses pay the average worker a wage that prevents POVERTY. The worst offenders in history were the political elite, the Presidents, the senators, the business moguls, the large corporate share holders, the social elite, the Kings, the Queens, the Princes, the Dukes, the Duchesses, the Knights (did you know they were actually PAID thugs, who robbed the farmers and field peasants of any wealth they had?).
Around the world, the peasants were always forced by the “government” (the elites in government), to work ungodly hours, under unbearable conditions, with life and limb always threatened, and for almost no pay, or any wage sufficient to allow them to break out of POVERTY.
Reduce the number of “illegals”, rather than increase the number of “illegals” and you will not have a growing society of poverty and desperately poor as evidence has shown in history. Prevent elites from hiring and abusing the desperately poor and it will reduce POVERTY furthur.
Sorry, I started to “rant” and Greg’s SPAM filter kicked in.
I think you get the point…more “illegals” means more POVERTY…
Anonymous.. you are right. If the owners of businesses have to pay higher wages than they can get elsewhere, they will move.
You can’t solve an economic problem with Unions, historically, as the free market forces can’t operate well under those conditions.
What you stifle is the desire of the wealthy to get richer and they look elsewhere. So what is the solution?
The poverty of the last decade or two took individual initiative to “compete” for less money than the next guy, while creating a better product. Worker were paid higher nwages for being more “productive” and working smarter rather than under social welfare conditions to improve their own life. This happened in Russia, and East Soviet BLOC nations.
You can’t do this in a Union community, a socialist community or a community of poverty, by using social handouts. But you can write some laws to prevent the rich from abusing the entire community as a result of out of balannce power.
You have to prevent “illegal” behavior and make the market “fair” and competitive, or it moves into “unfair and uncompetitive states”.
When China’s labor wages become equal to American labor wages, they will stop being abused and exploited. Only the Chinese government can prevent this, just like US federal law prevented exploiting “child labor”.
Legal markets thrive, “illegal” markets DIVE.
Anon1 said on 14 Jan 2008 at 4:03 pm:
THE HIGHWAYS ARE BEING CONSTRUCTED FROM MEXICO TO CANADA AS WE SPEAK.
Isn’t that the I-5? It’s been around for about 50 years.
No, there is one being constructed in either Kansas or Nebraska that will run up to Canada and it will be connected to other western states.
Vigilant1 said on 14 Jan 2008 at 4:39 pm:
Anon1 said on 14 Jan 2008 at 4:03 pm:
THE HIGHWAYS ARE BEING CONSTRUCTED FROM MEXICO TO CANADA AS WE SPEAK.
Here is a link with a map of the NAFTA SUPER HIGHWAY BEING CONSTRUCTTED.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=15497
I think it is interesting that not a single presidential candidate can do a thing to help the current economy, although all of them will promise to do so. The number one issue in the campaign is not “fixable” by any of the current candidates. The current problem is an international labor wage “gap”.
Until this wage gap is eliminated, the market will remain “unfair” and illegal activity will make it last longer and “illegal” alien wage exploitation will make it worse rather than better and more competitive. “illegals” are not working smarter to be more productive and create competitive products so they can be paid more competitive wages, they are exploiting a wage “gap” so they can make their native nation more productive, and thier personal lives more productive, but create an unfair and “illegal” market that decrease the productivity of the overall majority of the skilled workforce, making it less competitive overall and unable to compete “intelligently” with foreign innovation and foreign wage advantages. This creates an unfair and non-competitive market for the US worker and a greater than fair and easily competitive market for the workers who have a lower social wage living in lower social standard of living markets. Only when these markets near a “fair” competition balance, will the rest of us see much of a swing away from increasing POVERTY in our nation.
Historically highways have been a good thing in the long run as it increases trade and trade competition. The great canal between the Yellow river and Yangtze was an example, but it killed millions of people in the process of building it, creating great poverty and abuse until the trade benefir kicked in. The Panama Canal was another example, interstates another, the Trans-siberian railroad was another (it caused a peasant revolution as a result of the cruelty), the US transcontineltal railroad (kiiled a lot of workers and kept them in poverty their whole life), but caused trade between the nations large cities. The punic wars were fought over trade rights, the winner (Rome, rather than Carthage) became the dominant world power, with great wealth, but not until great poverty was felt during the period preceeding it.
A highway only works when the wages on each side are fairly equal. When they are, diverse as here in the US, only the side that has the most poverty benefits from the highway, and the very few on the rich side that posses all the riches to move the products and exploit the impoverished workers.
Free trade needs to happen gradually at a sustainable rate, too fast or too slow (due to massive illegal migration) and the growth stalls, as it is here in the US with “illegal” wealth being shipped overseas and south of the border.
It became too easy for employers to break unions. I watched that happen. I still like a good union. Darn if I didn’t have good health care and a PENSION plan.
Everyone lines their pockets given the opportunity. Cheney lines his, Unions line theirs. Cheney never provided me health care and a pension. If I’m going to be ripped off, I’d like to feel like I was getting a little something.
In laws were all coal workers. Don’t talk to me about jobs people don’t want to do….
One Voice has a really good point. Poverty in the coal mining industry was not a result of people not wanting to work hard, it was a result of elites that owned the company not wanting to pay workers a wage that allowed them to get out of poverty (ever).
To be competitive with other coal companies, owners wanted to keep the price of coal low enough to sell it but high enough to make a profit for themselves. They did not transfer any of that profit to the miners unless either the Unions or the government through government health care and benefit plans forced them to. The workers had no way to be more productive, or to create innovation as all that was controlled by the company, and if innovation was more expensive in the short term than taking a few more million bucks home to the yacht, they chose to not innovate and just continue to squeeze the workers until the workers could unite and squeeze back. This is the current problem in Chinese factories.
Only until a coal industry meltdown as a result of cheap oil closed many/most of the mines did the people of WVA, Penn and other mining states start to find some other way of creating wealth and work for themselves. Technology helped some, but not enough to create community wealth overnight. When the miners cost the coal executives more money than they felt was enough to line their pockets, stock options and bonuses with they turned to overseas opportunities to exploited the unprotected workers there the same way they exploited the minors. If it was “child Labor” people would understand that the executives should not be allowed to treat people this way. The companies still made profits, just not enough for the board of directors to remain filthy rich when they could see another opportunity to remain filthy rich elsewhere. Us Industry wealth only transferred poverty elsewhere. When the wages for labor become global, they will have to solve the really hard problem, learning to be happy with being less rich than filthy rich.
Then they won’t get to shop at TYSONS 2 anymore and buy $500.00 doggie sweaters……or $40,000.00 watches. They might have to make do with a $3000.00 watch and ohhh… it might not be a designer label, GASP!
I have always wondered why people who are sworn to uphold the laws of the United States have had no problem with illegal aliens coming into and staying in our Country. That there has been at best indifference and at worst resistance to the enforcement of our Country’s laws. From the President right down to our local authorities. That the Congress of the United States can outlaw incandescent light bulbs, but do nothing about the enforcement of current immigration laws or see the necessity of securing our borders. That you have to present id to buy cough medicine but presenting id to vote is a problem. I am not a conspiracy theorist, but have wondered at the presence of a hidden hand over our what would normally be our law abiding politicians and legislators.
I have come to the conclusion that the enforcement of immigration laws or the willful neglect of them is driven by money alone. The filthy lucre. At the end of the day, it is not concern for human rights, it is not concern for the welfare of the illegal alien children or the claims of a better life here in “el norte”. It is not for the illegal alien mother barricaded in a sanctuary church in Chicago. it is not because there are just too damned many and how would we deport them all. No…
It is money, the immoral bosses who have it, and the cheap no-strings attached labor it brings. Why the resistance against English as the National language? Money. There are no better chains for slaves than ignorance. Illegal aliens are guaranteed to remain chained to low paying jobs if they do not have the intellectual currency of this nation, its language. They are guaranteed to be chained to the lowest end of of the socio-economic scale if there status remains murky. There is no better way to perpetuate the supply of slaves than increasing the number out of wedlock births thereby guaranteeing another generation of intellectual degeneration, hopelessness, and dependence. By refusing to deport illegal alien criminals big money guarantees the contiunation of a fractured morally corrupt underclass. What better way to insure the enslavement of youth than to have MS13 gang members as role models for young men?
Big money has no interest in making illegal aliens legal. Amnesty is an easy position to defeat. And what of the illegal aliens themselves? Brainwashed by supposed supporting groups like casa de maryland, mexicans without borders, etc. They are convinced to stay, convinced that their simply being here is good enough. Brainwashed into believing that they can be successful without becoming part of the great American amalgam socially, intellectually, or morally. I would not be surprised at all to find these “supporting” agencies on the dole for big money, therefore acting as big money’s very own Slave catchers and field foreman. I wonder how many of the elite in those agencies are driving expensive cars while those they support and agitate go hungry?
And lastly the biggest dupes of big money, churches and other morally directed groups legitimately concerned with human rights. Fooled into believing that their support of the illegal aliens is just and good. What an ingenious idea to have your dupes clothe and feed your workers at no expense to you. So they can stand on a street corner everyday and collect their meager wages with no benefits attached. Only to be tossed aside when they cannot work any longer, then to have the taxpayer foot the bill at the emergency rooms and county service centers. All in the name of the almighty dollar.
It is time to bring big money’s role “out of the shadows”. It might prove very interesting to see who the new slave owners really are.
cdubbs,
“I am not a conspiracy theorist, but have wondered at the presence of a hidden hand over our what would normally be our law abiding politicians and legislators.”
Does Trilateral Commission ring a bell?
“If we did halt immigration, what would the plan be for agriculture, poultry farms, etc, as Veteran asked above?”
Again, Charlotte, apologies for only just responding…I only just got on the site to read this thread. I did, in fact, briefly address that by referencing a previous comment on a previous thread, which I was too lazy at the time to go back and find:
AWCheney said on 12 Jan 2008 at 1:26 am: “Charlotte, perhaps we should also look at the reality of today’s global marketplace and consider that we are beginning to fall behind in technological development largely because we are yearly becoming more dependent upon cheap labor in certain industries, particularly agriculture. I seem to recall following a link on another comment thread here on this site which discussed that very issue in a very rational and fact-filled manner (don’t feel like going through the threads looking for it right now…a little late).”
I’m still in the process of looking for the link, and have been for more than an hour, and will continue to do so but the gist of it discussed specific situations in the agricultural industry when the cheap “immigrant” labor became unavailable (illegals sent home) and large, and small, producers were caught in a vise. The reaction in the industry by those producers which not only managed to survive but thrive was to finally begin to employ technology that had been available to them for over a decade, but rejected due to the availability of cheap labor. The ultimate outcome of this little hick-up (some producers didn’t survive) was that those producers who updated their facilities and employed legal residents at fair wages wound up doing very well, and WERE able to get their profits up once more while still being able to compete in the marketplace. THIS is how the natural selection process in a free market is supposed to work.
Yeah, yeah…I misspelled “hiccup.” Just wanted to make sure the “spelling nazis” who may be lurking knew that it was an accidental error and doesn’t suggest that I’m illiterate. I expect I’ve misspelled many words at one time or another.
cdubbs, you my good fellow hit the nail on the head!
“illegal” is “illegal” to the rest of us, but can be “legal” if you are above the law and have enough money to buy the Senator’s and Congressman’s vote.
Or unless you (like dear Charlotte and others of same ilk, bless her, no really!) just have a bleeding heart and feel we should never shoot an enemy about to shoot us and should never deport any person who is hurting our community.
We are a nation of shameful leaders now and everyone in the country now knows it.
redawn said on 14 Jan 2008 at 9:05 pm:
cdubbs,
“I am not a conspiracy theorist, but have wondered at the presence of a hidden hand over our what would normally be our law abiding politicians and legislators.”
Does Trilateral Commission ring a bell?
How about THE NEW WORLD ORDER as suggested by BUSH 41?
Btw Charlotte…I’m not an economist, just a former business owner and long time political activist. You’ve GOT to have some knowledge of economics to be both. And, once upon a time, I was a voracious reader of nonfiction on a variety of subjects (didn’t get into fiction much).
999, New World Order - BOOGA BOOGA! You guys are bonkers.
Sure are lot of socialists and commies around here, bashing big business, supporting filthy unions!
Actually, Ducky, if you knew anything about political history then you would know that the “BOOGA BOOGA” New World Order (as you call it) stuff came from people FAR removed from “socialists and commies”…that conspiracy theory is straight out of the John Birch Society Handbook. Or are you too young to remember REAL socialists and commies?
One Voice,
“They would equate illegals to scabs.”
That may have been true at one time but it’s no longer the case.
The Teamsters as well as other major labor groups like the AFL-CIO supported last year’s attempt at amnesty.
Jane D’oh! said on 15 Jan 2008 at 7:31 am:
One Voice,
“They would equate illegals to scabs.”
That may have been true at one time but it’s no longer the case.
CORRECT! Every ILLEGAL is a potential dues payer for the unions. Union membership is hurting and they will go to extremes to get the buckS flowing into their coffers again. ‘FROM YOUR POCKET TO MINE.”
Ducky said on 15 Jan 2008 at 1:45 am:
Sure are lot of socialists and commies around here, bashing big business, supporting filthy unions!
Sugguest you read the link below to see where the term ‘NEW WORLD ORDER” came from. Maybe you can learn something today.
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/war/bushsr.htm
Well, 999, I learned he actually said the following. Do you think Dick Cheney was listening? Do you think anyone was listening? Who the heck lives this that we should admire?
“So, if there ever was a time to put country before self and patriotism before party, the time is now”
Gotta take care of One Voice and family - I will take the good health care and pension back anyday…..
“I wonder how many of the elite in those agencies are driving expensive cars while those they support and agitate go hungry?”
On I95, on New Year’s Day, south of Dumfries, I happened to see a late-model Mercedes Benz with the VA tags “TEJADA”. Wonder who it belongs to?
It was heading north. I bet it went home to Arlington.
AWCheney,
I liked your post about agriculture using new technology. I saw a show on Food Network just recently. Evidently this particular place in Michigan is known as the cherry capital of the world(I hope I got that right). They use a machine to agitate the trees to make the cherries fall off. It was quick and efficient. I was impressed. I imagine there are all sorts of technologies out there but not being used.
AWCheney,
I just saw your post of Jan 14 explaining about the use of technology to replace the cheap labor. Again, very interesting and thought-provoking. Glad to know about your background; I was also thinking you were possibly a professor of some sort. It’s hard to really talk about the economics when there are so many human issues involved that arouse such passions.
I saw your comment to me this morning in the Open Thread, and I’ll probably write back later tonight in a more confrontational tone.
Many thanks also for your time looking for the previous threads.
MP Resident said on 15 Jan 2008 at 10:56 am:
“I wonder how many of the elite in those agencies are driving expensive cars while those they support and agitate go hungry?”
On I95, on New Year’s Day, south of Dumfries, I happened to see a late-model Mercedes Benz with the VA tags “TEJADA”. Wonder who it belongs to?
It was heading north. I bet it went home to Arlington.
Maybe he was in the area wishing Feliz Ano Nuevo to all his compatriates and handing them a few bucks. SURE!
Charlotte and AWCheney, nice discussion. I am aware of automated grape harvesting machines that have reduced manual labor costs. The current limitation is the grapes cannot be selectively picked as they can by human workers. A field ripening on the end or one row at a different elevation can have unripe fruit on another elevation. With these machines generally an entire row must be picked. Robotic sensor technology is beginning to fill in the gap however, and the development tools are becoming available to the general industry.
Yes, so which independent farmer can afford this nice technology? Let alone maintenance and replacement?
On the news tonight it talks about cloning (ONCE again) live stock.
Doesn’t this also put farmers out of work, cloning our food, etc.?
Forget Kobe Beef. How about Wall Street nuts?
Professor AWCheney, (I mean that sincerely. See my post at 4:53 above)
Question:
You wrote 14 Jan, 9:40 p.m.:
“…those producers who updated their facilities and employed legal residents at fair wages wound up doing very well, and WERE able to get their profits up once more while still being able to compete in the marketplace.”
How did those fair wages affect the price of the goods?
We say we want higher wages, but the natural law of economics is such that we seek the lowest prices.
Charlotte, after the initial investment (pro-rated and depreciated over time), replacing labor-intensive operations (labor is always expensive, in the long run, even if they are underpaid) by technology reduces the overhead sufficiently to allow a well-operated business to compete in the marketplace, which is only possible if their prices remain within the parameters set by supply and demand (the factor which dictates prices). This is true in ANY industry and, if you look at other historical examples (the automobile industry, for instance), you’ll see what I’m talking about.
AWCheney,
I think you are saying that after awhile the efficiency produced by the technology will allow prices to come down. How about other industries? Do you see any hope for production jobs in other industries to ever return to the U.S.? Even customer service phone jobs are handled overseas. The candidates are all promising Michigan salvation, but what can they really do?
The big problem that we’re seeing today with the large businesses gobbling up the small is NOT by the process of natural selection, but because big business is holding its thumb on the scale (so to speak). It’s no accident that they are STRONG proponents of illegal immigration and amnesty (proven historically to lead to MORE illegal immigration). Many are reporting obscene profits, and not because of innovative technology (we’re falling behind the rest of the industrial world in r&d), but because they are willfully ignoring laws regarding the hiring of illegal aliens (and actually seeking them out), enabling them to ignore other laws which those small businesses are, more often than not, compelled to follow (Workman’s Compensation, Unemployment Insurance, overtime, OSHA regs for workplace safety, etc.), all costly and easy to side-step with people who are operating under the radar…and they are doing it with the complicity of our own government. What happens if they get caught? Nothing, relative to those enormous profits…a mere slap on the fingers. There are other factors, of course (don’t let me get started on Outsourcing and NAFTA), but this is a major issue which is helping to destroy the small business community and, along with it, that great American sense of entrepreneurship in the process.
Charlotte,
I admit, I am just jumping in and have not read every comment.( mid conversation between you and AWC)
BUT THIS CAUGHT MY EYE:
“Do you see any hope for production jobs in other industries to ever return to the U.S.? Even customer service phone jobs are handled overseas.”
Can you ( not personally, but see this IS a problem) say that America outsources and REALLY expects a RETURN of business on it’s OWN ground?
The key word RETURN…….
Well, Charlotte, that really all depends upon whether the economy, with all its ebbs and flows, will be allowed to function naturally, and American entrepreneurship be allowed to rise again (I’ve got a more detailed comment on that hung up in the spam filter, for some reason). Right now our government seems to be firmly in the corner of BIG business, at the expense of small…which hardly lends itself to a free market economy and innovation in the marketplace. Actually, if we are ultimately ONLY left with big business, they’ll be able to fix prices, control demand in any way they choose, and generally do with the consumer as they will while they rake in the profits.
My personal experience is that they outsource what they don’t care about. Like customer service…. Just a bit cynical about businesses today. My Mother’s family had several small businesses in New England where they are still not very open to chains.
If you travel through don’t expect to find many 7-11’s. But you will find a Dunkin’ Donuts. THAT is almost a religion there.
AW - What are the largest family owned/privately owned businesses in VA? I am going to find out. I just posted about NE and their approach to chains. In Connecticut, the two largest privately owned businessess are Munson’s Candy and Highland Park Market’s. Both family owned both food :).
If you don’t know, I will try to look that up. Family owned businesses have just been swallowed. I see no hope for return. Really, do you?
Insofar as the candidates promising “Michigan salvation”…all this government “fixing” has gotten us into a lot of the economic problems that we have. If anyone believes that 100% employment is the answer, along with government bailouts, then you must also believe that Communism is the best form of government. I’ll take a free market econony any day.
typo: “econoMy”
AWCheney: Many are reporting obscene profits,…
Just how much money is an “obscene profits”?
And how much is a “fair wage?
Commies!
Anybody called you an a**hole lately, Ducky?
One Voice said on 15 Jan 2008 at 9:12 pm:
AW - What are the largest family owned/privately owned businesses in VA? I am going to find out.
I can’t answer that One Voice…sorry. What I can say is based on observation, and that is to agree with your statement (see my previous comment AWCheney said on 15 Jan 2008 at 8:48 pm) that family-owned, particularly small, businesses are being swallowed up and/or pushed out of the market. If you are a small, law-biding business that dots all the i’s and crosses the t’s, it’s rather hard to compete in a market that rewards businesses that take liberties with the law with impunity.
Ducky,
Do you believe businesses should be able to skirt and ignore whichever laws they please in order to maximize profit?
Do you believe it is good for businesses to suppress wages through illegal hiring practices?
Why should one type of business feel compelled to follow the multitude of laws on the books while a blind eye is turned to the law breaking of other types?
Why should some people have to obey our immigration laws and jump through all of the hoops while a blind eye is turned to others who don’t feel it?
We should either follow and enforce the laws across the board or repeal them and have a free-for-all.
Everyone should be playing by the same set of rules and doing as well for themselves and their interests within those rules.
It’s not ususal to find criticism of business at this level from those with a conservative republican bais. It’s about darn time that they were fair game and made to step up to the plate and confront their ethics and practices.
As far as obscene profits I would define that as when your lowest paid worker is not making a living wage for the region and when your employee’s don’t have a health care plan or retirement plan as good as the boss. Not the value, the program.
I recall an old man (machinist) I knew as a child saying “Any man that works for a living and votes Republican, should be shot.” He was referring to the blanket approval given business without regard for laws and individuals. He worked for Pratt & Whitney. Now before I am jumped on, remember, different times (forty years ago), different everything - and it’s a quote. But I knew then what he meant.
Jane, I couldn’t agree more.
Huh, One Voice…I happen to be a Republican (of course, I don’t recognize the so-called Republican leadership of today as true Republicans). In the many years in which I was actively involved in the Republican Party, we were strong proponents of SMALL business (BIG supporters of the Small Business Administration). Big business interests were generally better served by the Democrats. Nowadays it’s actually almost impossible to discern much difference between the Republican and Democratic Parties. One’s as bad as the other, but that doesn’t mean that the grassroots in either party likes it. Don’t paint everyone with the same brush.
Ducky said on 16 Jan 2008 at 1:18 am:
AWCheney: Many are reporting obscene profits,…
Just how much money is an “obscene profits”?
And how much is a “fair wage?
Commies!
Sounds like quacker is paranoid about “Commies.” He should be more concerned about the ILLEGAL ALIENS.
AWCheney,
Another one that will waste your time and effort to educate.
Very interesting economics discussion AW and Charlotte. Reminds me very much of what Greenspan was referring to over a year ago regarding the need for a transition to higher skilled labor force as the manufacturing jobs moved overseas.