Driving liberals, dhimmis and illegal alien apologists absolutely insane since 2005...

Make Money The Easy Way

By Greg L | 31 January 2008 | Virginia Politics, Crime | 87 Comments

Here’s an easy moneymaker for those of you who want to clean up some of our neighborhoods:

The DMV started the Zero Fraud campaign in 2006 in hopes of eliminating efforts to obtain fake driver’s licenses or state identification cards. Callers can offer anonymous tips, and information that leads to an arrest can result in rewards of up to $1,000.

And just what would the largest population of those committing identity fraud in Virginia happen to be?  You bet, it’s illegal aliens. Enjoy.

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  1. The Truth said on 31 Jan 2008 at 3:17 pm:
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    The nazis were very intelligent and introduced a very effective tactic when they allowed germans to profit from the persecution of the Jews…

  2. Advocator said on 31 Jan 2008 at 3:28 pm:
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    Liberals here are kinda intelligent and have introduced a very effective tactic of allowing big businesses and lazy Americans to profit from the introduction of a permanent underclass, at the expense of the working class.

    Your name-calling has no place in even half-way intelligent discourse, “Truth.”

  3. Krusty said on 31 Jan 2008 at 3:30 pm:
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  4. mnd said on 31 Jan 2008 at 3:33 pm:
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    The Truth,

    The problem is that the result of doing nothing now will produce violence you’re so worried about later.

    The point of enforcing the rule of law is that things never get bad enough that people feel they must take matters into their own hands to receive justice.

    Nature abhors a vacuum.

  5. The Truth said on 31 Jan 2008 at 3:41 pm:
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    “The problem is that the result of doing nothing now will produce violence you’re so worried about later.”

    Methinks you are quite ignorant of history. You see…the nazis actually did do something…they scapegoated a weak minority…then the kept on doing some more things. According to your logic, this was supposed to lead to no violence. Could you please explain how the murder of 6 million Jews qualifies as not violent?

  6. Johnson said on 31 Jan 2008 at 3:57 pm:
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    The Truth-
    What was the profit tactic?

  7. Grow a pair said on 31 Jan 2008 at 3:59 pm:
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    Ummm so you think the United States should just do away with rewards for tips that lead to the capture of criminals? I think the FBI would have something to say about that!

    “Truth” is woefully ignorant to a major fallacy in his/her argument: the Nazi’s paid German citizens for helping them persecute a class of people who had committed NO CRIME.

    Forging a driver’s license is a crime – a felony!

    So, a comparison of the DMV to the Nazis is far beyond the pale, not to mention being completely specious. Just another case of a liberal using an example that completely doesn’t apply and using it as a scare tactic / method of making people feel guilty. The psychology of “Truth’s” argument is, by making someone feel like they are sympathetic to something comparable to an act of the Nazis, said person will back down from their position. The only problem is, HE/SHE IS TOTALLY WRONG!

    So, in closing “Truth,” I would turn you in for committing a crime if there were a reward or not, but if there is, that’s all the better and I get to laugh all the way to the bank.

    P.S. Tell the Tin Man I said hello when you’re on your way home down the Yellow Brick Road!

  8. The Truth said on 31 Jan 2008 at 4:20 pm:
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    I notice you did not respond to my question…how telling.

    Grow a pair said:
    ““Truth” is woefully ignorant to a major fallacy in his/her argument: the Nazi’s paid German citizens for helping them persecute a class of people who had committed NO CRIME.”

    Actually, the nazis passed all kinds of laws to persecute the jews. They started with small persecutions and seemingly innocuous public offices like the DMV. Their goal was tog get the German people to see the Jews as criminals. As history shows, it was a very effective tactic…

    There was opposition to the fascism…some had the courage to speak out and say the resolutions were unjust and violated their human rights. They were denounced as traitors, cowards, apologists for the criminal jews…

    In time history has shown us that it was those who passed the unjust laws, against a weak and vulnerable minority, who were the real criminals…

  9. The Wizard of Oz said on 31 Jan 2008 at 4:20 pm:
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    You are no longer welcome in the Emerald City. There is no place here for liberal, left-wing, brevity-filled rhetoric. Go spout your inane comments elsewhere.

    You are now exiled.

  10. CitizenofManassas said on 31 Jan 2008 at 4:37 pm:
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    The truth,

    I suppose we should get rid of any laws against criminal action. Why just allow illegals to get away with criminal action?

    I don’t suppose you have heard of crime stoppers have you? That is the program that allows people to call in with tips to the police. It has been used for years and has been very successful in finding all kinds of criminals wanted for all types of criminal actions. I suppose you would consider that to be a form of Nazism.

    Funny, how when it comes to attempting to combat crime that might be committed more by illegals, you illegal supporters get your panties all in a bunch.

  11. Johnson said on 31 Jan 2008 at 4:38 pm:
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    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

    Illegal aliens are not Jews and we are not in Germany. Give me a break. You shall be waterboarded by Dick Cheny after hunting with him.

  12. Davey Crockett said on 31 Jan 2008 at 5:45 pm:
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    I dont want to argue about it, I just want to drop some dimes and
    make some money the old fashioned way.

  13. mnd said on 31 Jan 2008 at 5:48 pm:
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    The Truth,

    You’re the one who brought up a flawed comparison to the NAZIs.

    The only thing I took from it was that you’re worried about eventual “atrocities” committed against illegals.

    My point stands.

    Enforce the law and provide justice, or suffer the consequences of doing nothing.

    The Jews weren’t scapegoats for nothing — hyperinflation of the Mark in the Weimar Republic provided sufficient resentment to allow policies of persecution to go unchallenged.

    The difference we face is that the illegal alien is resented for actually breaking the law! When enough people have had the nightmare of identity theft, cultural friction, death of friends and family on the road or in crime, we too will accept gradual persecution, culminating in atrocity in the name of the “final solution to the illegal alien problem.”

    The solution is to enforce the law and provide justice now while more rational heads prevail.

  14. josh said on 31 Jan 2008 at 6:29 pm:
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    you scratch only part of the surface here. People were willing in those days to out their neighbors because they felt it would gain them favor with the administration. That’s what made the gestapo seem so omnipresent. The DMV offering rewards is a pretty pale comparison to that regime. I personally would turn someone in regardless of the reward as I have been a victim of ID theft. If It were my ID that were forged believe me I would forgo the Reward for 5 minutes alone with the person…..

    Rewards offered by Government agencies catch criminals, that’s what they were designed to do. They dont delay or alter due process which is what you seem to be getting at.

    Stop the comparisons to Nazi Germany, your lack of knowledge of that period of history makes you seem less than intelligent on the subject.

  15. Krusty said on 31 Jan 2008 at 7:06 pm:
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    josh is back with his pugnacious comments like : “5 minutes alone with the person…” (shake in your boots, folks. He might be carrying his AK47 or Luger pistol) and his derogatory remarks like: “your lack of knowledge of that period of history makes you seem less than intelligent on the subject”.

    I’ve been on the receiving end of his cutting remarks more than once so, Truth, don’t take it too hard. It’s in josh’s nature.

  16. josh said on 31 Jan 2008 at 7:16 pm:
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    not that I have to justify myself to you but, for one I’ve been a victim of Identity theft. It caused me undue heartache for several months until I got things squared away, to make matters worse it was an illegal alien who did this..can you see where I’m coming from?

    I dont think it’s a “derogatory remark” at all, Truth is spitting out the Nazi angle but would have no problem if someone turned in the murderer who could be living next door for a reward.

    I dont carry a luger or an AK-47 (nor own them). i’m sufficiently armed without them.

    Stop commenting about my “nature” I actually love nature, you can definitely seem I’m a friend to the animals as I’m conversing with you :)

  17. manassascityresident said on 31 Jan 2008 at 7:22 pm:
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    Josh -
    Your comments were very civil - and I agree with you as do most reasonable people. Key word being “reasonable”……

  18. krusty said on 31 Jan 2008 at 7:32 pm:
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    For the next hour evewryone sign your post with the name “krusty”

  19. Krusty said on 31 Jan 2008 at 7:36 pm:
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    josh - Arf, arf! I dig. You must be a boxer. :)

  20. josh said on 31 Jan 2008 at 7:37 pm:
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    I did too..I think the “truth” person needs to change their handle. I keep seeing many people on this board flinging the “NAZI” handle when they see a policy they dont like. I also see the “xenophobia” word being slung about.

    and Truth, the actual number of Jews killed during the holocaust is still hotly debated today. Even Reitlinger changed his numbers in later years. 6 million people total killed seems fairly realistic, but you left out gypsies, gays, etc. in your quote as well. Jews were not the only people persecuted. If you add in the euthanasia programs you can come up with a bunch more from the greater German population.

    The bulk of the german people didnt profit from the Nazi’s activities, the german industry did however. The average german supported the greater good by informing on their neighbors. It was seen as the supportive thing to do during those times for stability. Remember hyper-inflation of the mark was rampant after WW1 and Hitler promised to fix it, He did..by ramping up the war machine and building a new economy based on the arms industry. This gave people jobs, this made them happy and willing to do just about anything to keep stability in their lives. They didnt need reward money, they were only too happy to help after germany was put in the poor house paying war reparations.

  21. Krusty said on 31 Jan 2008 at 7:38 pm:
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    krusty without capital K is no friend of mine, so “evewryone” please disregard his/her comment. Basta! Pronto!

  22. Mad Cow said on 31 Jan 2008 at 7:48 pm:
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    “I come from a people who gave the Ten Commandments to the world. Time has come to strengthen them by three additional ones, which we ought to adopt and commit ourselves to: thou shall not be a perpetrator; thou shall not be a victim; and thou shall never, but never, be a bystander.” -Yehuda Bauer


  23. Mad Cow said on 31 Jan 2008 at 9:02 pm:
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    link: http://cryptome.org/dhs012908.htm

    [Federal Register: January 29, 2008 (Volume 73, Number 19)]

    [Rules and Regulations]
    [Page 5271-5340]
    From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]

    [[Page 5271]]


    Part II

    Department of Homeland Security


    6 CFR Part 37

    Minimum Standards for Driver’s Licenses and Identification Cards
    Acceptable by Federal Agencies for Official Purposes; Final Rule

    [[Page 5272]]



    Office of the Secretary

    6 CFR Part 37

    [Docket No. DHS-2006-0030]
    RIN 1601-AA37

    Minimum Standards for Driver’s Licenses and Identification Cards
    Acceptable by Federal Agencies for Official Purposes

    AGENCY: Office of the Secretary, DHS.

    ACTION: Final rule.

  24. BattleCat said on 31 Jan 2008 at 9:02 pm:
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    You and your Nazis. Just once, I’d like to hear something outta you that doesn’t involve Nazis. I feel like you’d be in a world of hurt if there were never Nazis…how would you make a point?

  25. Leila said on 31 Jan 2008 at 9:36 pm:
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    I am still trying to figure out what the Wizard of Oz meant by objecting to Truth’s “brevity-filled” rhetoric. Was Truth somehow too concise?

  26. NoVA Scout said on 31 Jan 2008 at 9:59 pm:
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    I would have guessed that the biggest demographic committing identity fraud would be caucasians in the 18-21 age group.

  27. CitizenofManassas said on 31 Jan 2008 at 10:46 pm:
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    Do you have any proof to back your statement up? I suppose there is a market for such a group, but when you consider illegals are not permitted to work legally in the United States, and that we have upward of twenty million illegals, they must be using some sort of ID to gain employment.

    Why don’t you answer the questions I have asked you a number of times? Seems to me that if you are anything other then a tool put up by the illegal alien lobby, you should be able to answer the questions.

  28. TDB said on 1 Feb 2008 at 7:46 am:
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    NoVA Scout-Are you referring to teenagers that use fake ID’s to get alcohol? If so, that is a ridiculous analogy. Where is the victim?

  29. josh said on 1 Feb 2008 at 7:51 am:
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    Agreed. No victim there and they are trying to lower the drinking age to 18 thus there will be no need for this anymore.

  30. Ducky said on 1 Feb 2008 at 7:55 am:
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    Greg has no evidence to support his claim that “the largest population of those committing identity fraud in Virginia” is illegal aliens. I think it’s bs.

  31. One Voice said on 1 Feb 2008 at 8:22 am:
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    TDB said on 1 Feb 2008 at 7:46 am:
    NoVA Scout-Are you referring to teenagers that use fake ID’s to get alcohol? If so, that is a ridiculous analogy. Where is the victim?

    The friend they kill while driving.

  32. CitizenofManassas said on 1 Feb 2008 at 8:23 am:
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    A few months ago, we had a lengthy discussion here about kids using fake ids to buy alcohol, and as you might guess the illegal alien supporters thought two wrongs make a right, and that because kids use fake ids for beer, that it OK to allow illegals to use stolen ids.

    Nevermind that illegals should not be here in the Country in the first place, and the fact I have not heard or have witnessed an elected official supporting the purchasing of beer by minors using fake ID. But, as you know the illegal aliens supporters do not let facts get in the way of their defense of them.

  33. One Voice said on 1 Feb 2008 at 8:23 am:
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    Ducky - we don’t need no stinkin’ fact…

  34. Anonymous said on 1 Feb 2008 at 8:27 am:
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    Ducky said on 1 Feb 2008 at 7:55 am:
    Greg has no evidence to support his claim that “the largest population of those committing identity fraud in Virginia” is illegal aliens. I think it’s bs.

    If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck………

  35. One Voice said on 1 Feb 2008 at 8:30 am:
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    You know what happens when you assume……. Assume away!

  36. The Wizard of Oz said on 1 Feb 2008 at 8:42 am:
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    I was referring to “The Troof’s” bulls&!t comparison of illegal aliens to the Jews and the Holocaust.

    Citizens and local/state/federal governments that insist on the rule of law are not Nazis.

    The victims in this case are the US citizens, not the illegal aliens.

  37. Pat Herve said on 1 Feb 2008 at 8:45 am:
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    How do you know if someone is illegal or not?

    Seriously - how do you know?

  38. Leila said on 1 Feb 2008 at 9:23 am:
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    Wizard, I am asking what you meant by “brevity” as in your phrase objecting to “brevity-filled rhetoric.” Does “brevity” have some different meaning than usual in your Emerald City?

  39. Anonymous said on 1 Feb 2008 at 9:24 am:
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    This one’s for you


  40. Rt1Resident said on 1 Feb 2008 at 9:33 am:
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    If you think that it’s okay for ILLEGAL aliens to have a fake drivers liscense then don’t complain if your ever in an accident with one and they just drive off. Oh, I forgot, if they drive off then there is no telling if they are ILLEGAL aliens in the first place, never mind.

  41. /\/\3|)iç 64 (Winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award) said on 1 Feb 2008 at 9:57 am:
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    Pat Herve said on 1 Feb 2008 at 8:45 am:

    Body language and actions speak loud enough.

    If the police come up to them and they run away, they might be an ILLEGAL.
    If they loiter at a 7-11 looking for day jobs, they might be an ILLEGAL.
    If they urinate in public while loitering at the 7-11, they might be an ILLEGAL.
    If they demand drivers licenses, they might be an ILLEGAL.
    If they give false information to the hospital to receive services, they might be an ILLEGAL.
    If they have a child and use that child’s name and SSN to get a job, they might be an ILLEGAL.

  42. manassascityresident said on 1 Feb 2008 at 10:20 am:
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    If they’ve been in the U.S. for five+ years and can’t speak a lick of English, they might be ILLEGAL!

  43. Lafayette said on 1 Feb 2008 at 10:22 am:
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    You are exactly right. You were there at the Mc Coart Blg on 10/19/07, and heard those people speak with translators that have been here a decade or more. Behavior is pretty tellin of legality too. IMHO

  44. manassascityresident said on 1 Feb 2008 at 10:29 am:
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    Laf -

  45. Advocator said on 1 Feb 2008 at 11:12 am:
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    Twelve Illegals were huddled under the shelter of the Coverstone 7-11 this morning, approximately 0858.

    If anyone sees the grey minivan that brings them coffee and lunch, try to get a plate number.

  46. The Wizard of Oz said on 1 Feb 2008 at 11:33 am:
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    I refer to her brief and fleeting rhetoric.

  47. /\/\3|)iç 64 (Winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award) said on 1 Feb 2008 at 12:22 pm:
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    Advocator said on 1 Feb 2008 at 11:12 am:

    I missed them this morning @ 8:15. I didn’t see any as I drove by on Sudley. They must have been hiding behind the building.

  48. jfk said on 1 Feb 2008 at 1:02 pm:
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    2008 Head in the Sand Winner:

    Ducky, for her post 1 Feb 2008 at 7:55 am:

    Congratulations Ducky! Please pick up your sombrero and case of Modelo at the door as you leave.

    Maybe you should change your name to Ostrich?

  49. jfk said on 1 Feb 2008 at 1:04 pm:
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    In case any of you think me a xenophobe, these gifts were provided by our contest sponsors, El Mercado, and Guapo’s Restaurant. Please remember to patronize these establishments, without being patronizing :)

  50. Pat Herve said on 1 Feb 2008 at 4:21 pm:
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    I want to report a tip of someone who Is illegal (just as Greg suggest’s).

    I do not want to report them if they are not illegal - they are my neighbor.

    How do I tell if they are illegal?

    It is a serious question, or should I waste the DMV’s time by saying, I have a neighbor who I think is illegal…..

  51. /\/\3|)iç 64 (Winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award) said on 1 Feb 2008 at 4:26 pm:
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    Pat Herve said on 1 Feb 2008 at 4:21 pm:

    Watch for some tell tale signs:

    Too many people in the house
    Too many cars parked around the house
    Too many people coming and going at all hours
    Watch for the screen door to be propped open

    It seems to me that you may just be here to glean information about the tactics of determining the status so you can possibly teach those to others. This of course may be way off base, but I have to wonder about people anymore.

  52. Mr. Anon said on 1 Feb 2008 at 4:39 pm:
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    DMV has wasted enough of my time, why not waste some of theirs?

    What makes you think they are illegal? Next time you are talking to them, ask to see their license. If they are legal, then they won’t have any trouble showing it to you. BUT,if they refuse, then you know…. wink, wink?

  53. Mr. Anon said on 1 Feb 2008 at 4:54 pm:
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    Actually, I have identified some folks that I would like to report.

    Dick Saslaw
    Louise Lucas
    Fred Quayle
    John Edwards

    They have been acting very suspiciously. I think they must be illegal. I sure would love to have them arrested. I’ll donate the rewards to HSM.

  54. Lafayette said on 1 Feb 2008 at 5:32 pm:
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    It was all clear at Coverstone this afteroon and the 7-11 at Rt1 & th Pwky as well. I heard the your favorite “horsey women” have been patrolling back in the Covertsone area. Watch for crossing horses! Take a look at these.

  55. Lafayette said on 1 Feb 2008 at 5:33 pm:
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    I forgot to tell you look at #1544 lunch time. They do not have the delivery service Coverstone has. These “hard workers” whipped up their own noodles in the 7-11.

  56. dolph said on 1 Feb 2008 at 9:41 pm:
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    I find it interesting that folks are more than willing to go wink wink nudge nudge over young adults having fake driver’s licenses to buy booze and consider it a victimless crime.

    Nothing could be further from the truth if you look at the statistics of young people involved in alcohol related accidents. As for the lowering the drinking age, I seriously doubt that will happen. Shortly after the 26th amendment passed, 18 year olds could buy booze. The alcohol related accident rate was off the charts. Legislators changed the laws back to 21 and if I am not mistaken, states who refused to do so faced losing road funding. Even DC finally caved.

    The bottom line though is, you either believe in rule of law or you don’t. You can’t pick and choose which laws you like.

  57. CitizenofManassas said on 1 Feb 2008 at 11:32 pm:
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    That is right. Too bad many who say that make excuses for illegals.

  58. cdubbs said on 2 Feb 2008 at 12:58 am:
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    Well well, from the looks of some of the comments around here I guess that the next time you see our County Police Officers out protecting citizens, you should make sure you let them know that they are nothing more than Ernst Rome brown shirts just one step away from kristalnacht. How you go from enforcing existing law with regards to illegal aliens in PWC Virginia to Jews being rounded up and sent to Dachau by the Nazis is beyond me. It may be that the faded inked numbers on my grandmothers arm and the stories that went with them give me a different view about the greatness and goodness of America. There are a whole lot worse things in the world than being sent back to your country of origin all expenses paid because you are not supposed to be here in the first place.

  59. NoVA Scout said on 2 Feb 2008 at 6:41 am:
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    Since someone asked way up the thread, I was only commenting on Greg”S suggestion that “the largest population committing identity fraud” is uninspected entrants. I suspect he doesn’t know whether that’s true or not and I posited that “the largest population committing identity fraud” is the 18-21 demographic. Of course, I don’t know that either, but since this is a Fact Free Zone, we can all speculate. I’m not sure which fraud is more blameworthy, although identity fraud to get alcohol does not seem inherently less culpable than identity fraud to eat. ButI’m ambivalent on this, particularly since I don’t understand why a guy can be expected to die in combat for you and me, but isn’t allowed to get a beer. Somehow that doesn’t make much sense.

  60. CitizenofManassas said on 2 Feb 2008 at 8:31 am:
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    Why don’t you answer the questions? I will tell you why, because you are not interesting in anything but being a tool. I believe you might be that blow hard Gary Jacobson from the MJM. You use of words such as “uninspected entrants” is one of those words he would use, and how you refuse to answer any questions that are asked of you. The fact you are unwilling to answer questions and defend your views is just proof you really do not believe what you say, otherwise you would not have a problem defending your position.
    Using stolen ID to eat? How about if they are so concerned about eating, they should have followed the law, that way they would not have to continue to break the law?

    Have you heard of a law enforcement officer or elected officials support kids using fake ids to buy beer?

    Here are some facts. Illegals break the law when they enter the Nation. Illegals drive without licenses. Illegals are the reason why crime is up in the City of Manassas(source, Manassas Police Department Public affairs officer). Fact, people that support illegals are not conservatives. Fact, illegals cost the Prince William hospital 15 million dollars last year(source, the hospital).

    How do you like those facts?

  61. Jane D'oh! said on 2 Feb 2008 at 8:42 am:
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    Uninspected entrants? That’s a good one. I haven’t heard that euphemism used before.

    My favorite is still Michael Chertoff’s “economic migrants” though.

  62. josh said on 2 Feb 2008 at 6:54 pm:
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    the day when 18 year olds could by alcohol was a long time ago, well before I knew what a beer was. Since then punishment for DUI has increased as well as other enforcement measures. I think we are more than safe to allow 18 year olds to drink again. If you can allow an 18 year old to enlist in the military you can allow him/her to drink.

    Part of Drinking underage is the mystery i.e. getting alcohol when you shouldnt. Take the mystery away and it’s not a big deal.

  63. dolph said on 2 Feb 2008 at 7:46 pm:
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    I have no problem allowing those who serve in the military to show military ID and drink. However, not all 18 year olds serve in the military. Those who do not can wait until they are 21.

    In the first place, most kids who want to drink do so. I have known few who wanted to drink who didn’t. It can always be obtained. I have also seen the problems that many of those drinkers have gone through.

    Young people rarely see what the ravages of alcohol can do in the long run. Most young people think they are immortal. I think you are looking at alcohol consumption from a much different perspective than I am, from what you have said about your background.

  64. CitizenofManassas said on 2 Feb 2008 at 8:19 pm:
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    The point is that we do not have apologists for underage drinkers holding public office or law enforcement positions like we do for illegals.

  65. dolph said on 2 Feb 2008 at 10:48 pm:
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    Not all people under 21 have false IDs. Not all illegal aliens have false IDs.

    I do not think anyone has said it is ok for either group to have false IDs.

  66. CitizenofManassas said on 2 Feb 2008 at 10:54 pm:
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    But, every illegal is an illegal, and many if not most have some type of illegal id, since all but a few States do not allow illegals to obtain driver licenses. Plenty of people have said it is OK for illegals to have fake ids. The lack of enforcement, and out right support of illegals is pretty much an endorsement of all actions of illegals, including black market ID sales and outright theft of id by illegals.

  67. dolph said on 3 Feb 2008 at 5:52 pm:
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    I am of the mind set that we have already granted amnesty because nothing is being done…which to me is passive amnesty.

    I don’t know of anyone who feels it is ok to have a black market id other than thugs and ne’er to wells.

  68. CitizenofManassas said on 3 Feb 2008 at 10:10 pm:
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    There are plenty of folks who think that is OK. Anyone who supports illegals supports that type of black market. One either supports illegals or one does not. One cannot pick and choose what they support when it comes to illegals, as we all know they should not be in the Country in the first place.

  69. dolph said on 3 Feb 2008 at 11:26 pm:
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    I don’t think you can make that quantum leap. All of us have different feelings on how to handle the problem or what should not be accepted. For instance…..one person might feel that illegal children belong in school rather than running the streets. Someone else might feel that if one of them is hurt then they have to lie there and die because they shouldn’t be here in the first place. We aren’t all going to agree. It doesn’t mean that any of us want illegal aliens here.

    I would prefer that we fill our country’s work demands with people based on need and brought in the country legally. You, if I recall correctly, would prefer that no foreign workers be used. I think I am right and you think you are right. Where do we go from here?

  70. CitizenofManassas said on 3 Feb 2008 at 11:48 pm:
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    When we have elected officials pushing for amnesty, and or, attempting to block measures that would help stem the tide of illegal immigration, I say that pretty much fits the definition of support.

    Do you think there is a Grey line between support for drunk driving and non drunk driving?

    I support the current guest worker programs we have, and have said so more then a few times on this blog. However, there is a difference between the current guest worker programs and illegal immigration. I would hope you would also see that difference. But, you seem to intertwine the two, and I simply do not understand that, since there really is no connection between the two.

  71. dolph said on 4 Feb 2008 at 3:57 am:
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    And I do not see why you think I want to intertwine guest workers and illegal aliens.

  72. CitizenofManassas said on 4 Feb 2008 at 9:09 am:
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    Because you do, you on one hand say you are against illegal immigration, yet in the next sentence say we need immigrants for jobs, as if without illegals, we would suffer. What other conclusion should one come to?

  73. dolph said on 4 Feb 2008 at 1:27 pm:
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    Since when are all foreign workers illegal? If we allow people to come in with proper documentation then they are not illegal. Let’s go back to some of those specialty jobs I keep reading about in business sections of print media. Let’s go with the French and Italian chefs that are needed. We cannot grow them locally by definition.

    All kidding aside…..I have read a great deal about our guest worker programs really not meeting the needs of business. I am not witnessing this personally, quite obviously. I want workers, if needed, to be able to enter the United States legally. Business is saying this, not Dolph. That is all.

    I think everyone who enters this country should do so legally. It is imperative to our safety that our federal government have control over who is in our country. I hope that clears it up.

  74. CitizenofManassas said on 4 Feb 2008 at 4:07 pm:
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    The same businesses also do not want e-verify, and will always want additional workers, because they will always want new business, they are not concerned with the safety of our Nation, and do not care about border control. We can import the entire World, and of course that will justify building more fast food restaurants.

    These same businesses also say they want to follow the law, but also hire illegals to by-pass the laws that come with hiring workers. If they are unwilling to follow the law now, what makes you think they would do so in the future?

    The current guest worker programs can be adjusted as needed.

  75. Krusty said on 4 Feb 2008 at 4:21 pm:
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    CoM 3 Feb 11:48 pm - FYI: Grey line is a sight-seeing company.

    As for the rest of your comments, I’d like you to to talk to commercial farmers out in California. Stoop labor isn’t for most Americans. - At one time, Washington DC tried to send some of its able bodied welfare receivers to pick apples in the orchards in the Blue Ridge mts. Seemed they didn’t last ONE day.

  76. Disgusted said on 4 Feb 2008 at 5:11 pm:
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    Citizen of Manassas

    You are wasting your time with Dolph and Krusty. Save yourself the stress and give your fingers a rest with those two.

    I do agree with you, as do many who read this blog.

  77. CitizenofManassas said on 4 Feb 2008 at 8:31 pm:
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    Oh I know. For the most part Dolph is OK, but she back slides at times, and needs to be called out on it.


    So, Americans do not pick fruit? Do any Americans work? Or, are the illegals the only people that work in America? If illegals are such fine workers, why do they not work in their own Nations? It seems to me that if illegals have such great work ethic, it would not just be limited to those who come here illegally, which means their Nations should be full of such workers, which, would then lead one to believe the Nation’s economy would be well off enough to supply jobs for such hard workers. Yet, that does not seem to be the case, as it seems to be in America, which despite having lazy and or workers who do not want to do hard work, has one of the best economies in the World.

  78. NoVA Scout said on 4 Feb 2008 at 10:31 pm:
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    CoM: Sorry - what was The Question?

    Jane D’oh: “Uninspected Entrant” is the correct legal term. I didn’t make it up. That’s the law. I use it interchangeable with “illegal immigrant” or undocumented immigrant. They’re all interchangeable, but only uninspected entrant describes in correct technical language immigrants who sneak across the borders.

  79. dolph said on 5 Feb 2008 at 11:58 am:
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    Thanks for letting me live. snicker. It is probably them southern roots.

    Serious note here…I would venture to say it might be easier to get illegal immigration handled if we loosened up legal immigration and guest worker programs.

    I was watching a business section on tv this morning dealing with the super Tuesday primaries. Silicon Valley is being watched like a hawk and the key issue is: immigration immigration immigration. Why? Because Silicon Valley (1% of the population creating 5% of the GNP) needs to ability to attract and retain skilled engineers to do the jobs that need doing. Apparently they continually meet with restrictions. We are talking legal here.

    If Wall Street is the heart of our money engine, which I am convinced rules everything, then Silicon Valley is the brain and who controls more money than God. They need to be able to function legally.

  80. CitizenofManassas said on 5 Feb 2008 at 4:07 pm:
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    You know the questions. Also, how about the facts I provided to you last week in response to your allegation this blog does not deal with facts?


    That is a pipe dream you have there. Why do companies hire illegals now? Because they can hire them at lower pay, hire them without giving full benefits. Why would they agree to pay people even more money and provide them more benefits?

    HB1 visa’s are adjusted as needed, but the problem is that as I said in another post, there will always be a demand for workers, due to the want of expansion, which begets the need for more workers, which begets the want of more expansion… It is sort of the like the favorite saying of the NEA…. “fully funded eduction” exactly how do you define it? You can’t, which is why the NEA keeps using it no matter how much money is spent on education because they want to create the perception there is not enough money being spent on education.

  81. NoVA Scout said on 5 Feb 2008 at 9:56 pm:
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    Sorry , CoM. I don’t read every word in this blog (or any other). I don’t read every post that Greg puts up. It’s kind of random. I just sort of flit around for relaxation or amusement after a hard day’s work. I also travel a lot, so if I’m out of town or out of the country, there are additional gaps in my coverage. I missed The Question. There’s a lot of my life that doesn’t swirl around this stuff, but I use it as an example to my high school-aged kid about the volatility of opinions, even if floating free of facts.

  82. CitizenofManassas said on 5 Feb 2008 at 11:38 pm:
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    It seems you are just making excuses now. But, that is not surprising coming from someone who support illegals. You have plenty of time to post, but no time to read.. Hmmm.

    At what point do you think illegal aliens cross the line and should be deported for their law breaking?

    How is cheating the system and benefiting from it a conservative value?

    The correct term is illegal alien, since they are not permitted to be in the Country.

    How about these facts? Crime is up in the City of Manassas thanks to illegals(source Manassas City police). Illegals cost the Prince William Hospital 15 million dollars last year(source, the hospital). Five of the nine murders last year in PW County were committed by illegals(PW Police and local media outlets). ESL language classes make up 27% of the total student body of the Manassas City schools(source, Manassas City school board). It costs twice as much to educate an ESL student then it does to educate a fully English speaking student(Source, Manassas City school board).

    Are those enough facts for you?

  83. NoVA Scout said on 6 Feb 2008 at 6:38 am:
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    I’d rather they not cross the line in the first place, CoM. But like everywhere else in the world where you have relative prosperity situated near absolute poverty, we have labor migration that disrespects imaginary lines in the sand. In my salad days in Europe, people even braved barbed wire and machine guns to get from a non-performing economy to a vibrant one. It can’t be stopped physically, it has to be managed skillfully.

    I’ll take a crack at your comments, just so you can find something else to obsess over for the next few weeks. Almost everything below, I’ve said before, but you have a short memory. The short answer to your question is: “No, those aren’t enough facts for me. They don’t fully describe the problem and don’t provide a workable solution that serves the economic, security and constitutional interests of the United States and its citizens.”

    A lot of “facts” that pass as “facts” in this discussion are not facts at all. But for purposes of this comment, I’ll just take your statements at face value. You describe negative local impacts of a completely useless federal immigration system. Deportation is not mandatory and wouldn’t be practical to make mandatory, at least not with border control as out of control as it is. Uninspected entrants are “subject to” deportation, but for a lot of compelling reasons, it is not a mandatory response under federal law.

    I have no doubt that there may be locations where the numerical crime data are increased by the presence of illegals. As many here point out, if you have one illegal committing one crime, you have one more crime than you would have had if that guy hadn’t been here in the first place. But I don’t think that offers a useful policy component for getting the issue fixed once we get into the millions. Generally speaking, on a national level, the “crime rate” is lower among illegals than among the legal population, if for no other reason (and there probably are some other reasons) underground populations tend to lie low on overt flaunting of authority.

    ESL is probably expensive, but we need it for legal immigrants and for promoting assimilation, something most of us probably agree is important. So it ain’t going away and it shouldn’t. Once children are here, I favor assimilation and education. The moral evil and economic costs of isolating people in poverty and ethnic segregation are greater than the cost of promoting assimilation. Again, where numbers can be derived, the feds should offset the costs of their failing to control the border.

    We have a failed federal immigration policy that has to be fixed at the federal level - should have happened years ago. I thought something was going to be done last summer, however imperfect, but instead of legislation that would have addressed a lot of these issues, we are continuing a passive amnesty policy that isn’t working. Until we get federal reform legislation, the feds owe impacted localities offset aid to deal with quantifiable impacts (the hospital example is a good one). Failed fed policy impacts different communities to different degrees, but where it can be measured, I’d work hard to put the feds on the hook.

    I favor deportation of violent criminals who are enter without inspection after (not before) they serve their sentences for crimes committed here (if you catch them before they commit a crime, I have no problem with immediate deportation based on crimes committed outside the US). Again, the feds should make states and localities whole for the costs of imprisonment.

    As I’ve told you before, I don’t think illegal immigrants are “conservatives” in the sense you use the term, and I’m not sure why you think their political tendencies shed much light on how to solve the problem. This seems totally irrelevnat to me. Although many come from cultures where values are very “conservative” in ways that we recognize (family values, work ethic etc), the decision to risk entering another country illegally usually bespeaks a desperation that probably is not very political in its origins. Those of you who fancy yourselves to be “conservatives” would not stop at an imaginary line in the dirt if you felt you had to cross it to eat or to feed your kids. If you did, I’d think less of you.

    I don’t share your enthusiasm for mass deportation. I think it would be an absolute disaster for the interests of the United States economically, politically, ethically and morally. I don’t want my great great grandchildren to be looking in their history books at pictures of weeping men, women and children being dragooned onto transports. We don’t need a new Trail of Tears in our national ethos. We’re better than that. On a practical level, we’re not that stupid, and there are a million other measures that should be invoked first.

    One of the biggest problems I see with current conditions is that we have an enormous underground population that is increasingly being forced into hiding by local hostility. This exacerbates a lot of the problems that folks here claim to have with illegals in their communities: overcrowding, non-assimilation, identity theft, loitering, petty crime, violent crime, driving without insurance, skills, permits, public drunkeness, health issues, etc. Causes and effects are getting more and more confused. Most of what I see advocated here makes these things worse, not better. Existing Local law can address many, if not all of these issues, without reference to immigration status and without special efforts to act unconstitutionally in a field that is entirely federalized. But there seems to be a certain delight in making these things more likely to happen than less when one resists regularizing this underground population, screening it (filter out violent criminals), papering it (getting sufficient info to support work permits, banking access, insurance, driver qualifications etc.). That’s the only way we’re going to get a real solution to 10 to 20 million illegals entrants (and their US citizen children) that promotes the best interests and values of the United States.

    If all you guys who waste your time storming the McCoart Bldg and the capitol in Richmond want to join me to get meaningful federal action, you’ll find me a good ally in that effort. But many of you opposed immigration reform last year and I’m not particularly sympathetic with people who prolonged the federal paralysis on this subject.

  84. 999 said on 6 Feb 2008 at 4:28 pm:
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    NoVA Scout said on 6 Feb 2008 at 6:38 am:

    But many of you opposed immigration reform last year and I’m not particularly sympathetic with people who prolonged the federal paralysis on this subject.

    What was proposed by the Senate as “immigration reform” was opposed because it was a pure amnesty bill. Put any name on it you wish, it was for total amnesty (it even allowed gang members to remain in this country.)

  85. 999 said on 6 Feb 2008 at 4:37 pm:
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    NoVA Scout said on 6 Feb 2008 at 6:38 am:

    I don’t share your enthusiasm for mass deportation. I think it would be an absolute disaster for the interests of the United States economically, politically, ethically and morally. I don’t want my great great grandchildren to be looking in their history books at pictures of weeping men, women and children being dragooned onto transports. We don’t need a new Trail of Tears in our national ethos.

    England, France and The Netherlands are also fed-up with illegal alien problems in their countries and are looking at deportation as a means of ending it. If this country removed the incentive (work) the illegals (most of them) will self-deport.

  86. 999 said on 6 Feb 2008 at 5:24 pm:
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    We have people claiming this country doesn’t have enough immigrants and we should be letting more in (i.e. Bill Gates.) Gates says we should completely do away with quotas. Read the entire report and be amazed.

    The nation’s immigrant population (legal and illegal) reached a record of 37.9 million in 2007.

    Immigrants account for one in eight U.S. residents, the highest level in 80 years. In 1970 it was one in 21; in 1980 it was one in 16; and in 1990 it was one in 13.

    Overall, nearly one in three immigrants is an illegal alien. Half of Mexican and Central American immigrants and one-third of South American immigrants are illegal.

    Since 2000, 10.3 million immigrants have arrived — the highest seven-year period of immigration in U.S. history. More than half of post-2000 arrivals (5.6 million) are estimated to be illegal aliens.

    The largest increases in immigrants were in California, Florida, Texas, New Jersey, Illinois, Arizona, Virginia, Maryland, Washington, Georgia, North Carolina, and Pennsylvania


  87. NoVA Scout said on 7 Feb 2008 at 6:24 am:
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    Gates is of course right that we need more immigrants, but that has to be qualified as to skill sets. We can take about every engineer, chemist, MD, physicist that we can lure here from abroad. The old quota system has to go in the rubbish bin too. I assume, 999, that you don’t disagree with that (the need is screamingly obvious to more folks than Bill Gates), and that your concern is confined to illegal entrants. The problem, however, is that without federal immigration reform we are not only ignoring the legal problem, but failing to provide for the Nation’s economic and security needs in attracting the flow of legal immigrants that we must have to survive and be competitive in the coming decades.

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