The Budget And The Rule Of Law Resolution
By Greg L | 20 March 2008 | Illegal Aliens, Prince William County | 57 Comments
The Prince William Board of County Supervisors still hasn’t agreed to a maximum tax rate for the county, and has one more shot at agreement before the possibility of a stalemate which leaves the county without a budget, and real estate taxes, according to the Gainesville Times. Supervisor John Stirrup and Chairman Corey Stewart are supporting a maximum 96.8-cent tax rate, Supervisors Maureen Caddigan, Frank Principi and John Jenkins have voted in favor of a $1.03 rate and a $1.01 rate, and Supervisors Wally Covington and Mike May have supported a 96.8-cent and 99-cent rate. Supervisor Mary Nohe has voted for a $1 rate, which was offered by Mike May as a compromise. The heels have definitely dug in, and now it seems like a game of chicken to see who blinks before the county government shuts down.
It’s good to see a principled battle over how much the government should seize from our pockets. Too often, it seems like the easiest vote that elected officials can ever make is about how high our taxes should be raised, but not with this board. This board is going to have a battle royale with fiscal responsibility as the objective, and the taxpayers win as long as Republicans on the board are willing to demonstrate their commitment to principle. Yes, it’s a little ugly that there’s dissension, but this is precisely the right place to have it.
One thing that’s becoming clearer is that the Rule of Law Resolution is increasingly becoming a net positive for the County and helps make this debate potentially easier. School Board Chairman Milt Johns has stated that the enrollment decrease in the county will appear to save taxpayers $8 million in the next fiscal year. In addition, the remarkable slide in residential real estate values seems to have considerably slowed, which may increase county revenues by an additional $5-6 million. With the quality of life in many neighborhoods considerably improving in recent months as residential overcrowding dramatically abates, I would attribute at least a part of this improvement to the Rule of Law Resolution. Between these two factors, the Rule of Law Resolution’s costs (excluding unrelated costs for in-car video cameras that are not actually connected to the enforcement of this policy) are far exceeded by the direct fiscal benefits.
My earlier estimate of between $4 million and $10 million in net positive fiscal fiscal benefit for the county as a result of the Rule of Law Resolution in the first year seems to be on track, and is likely to climb much higher. We haven’t yet seen any data from the Community Services Board or other agencies which might raise this savings figure even higher. Opponents of the Rule of Law Resolution who have consistently denied any possibility that fiscal benefits could be possible and have only focused on the costs may soon have to confront the notion that the Rule of Law Resolution is not only politically popular, but fiscally prudent as well. It’s possible that the full net positive fiscal impacts could amount to $40 million annually.
They’ll have a lot of fun with that one, especially of it makes it easier for Supervisors to bridge the gap between 96.8 cents per hundred and $1.01.
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I’m not sure that the decline in school enrollment is much of a savings if the decline is attributable to homeowners leaving the country - obviously, homeowners leaving also means less property tax revenue and you end up with a wash.
As a general rule, raising property taxes is not a very good idea right now. With the local economy tanking and home values declining, raising county taxes is not going to attract prospective homeowners.
Ulp - my bad - I meant leaving the “county”, not “country”
think you were right the first time, Ducky….:)
Ducky
most of the people “leaving” are not paying real estate taxes. I cannot understand why there is this refusal to accept that the budget is strained because of retreating property values. In addition, the people leaving are a fraction of the people who may be here illegally and these people are still using funds and resources which are not funded by taxes, because they are not contributing.
There was an article yesterday in the Wtop which described a problem occurring in Prince William with collection of real estate taxes. Although the number was not stated, it seems that PW has a considerable number of people who are not paying their real estate taxes. It seems that many people are either unable or unwilling to pay their real estate taxes at this time, and these people are probably abandoning their properties and not paying their dues in taxes in anticipation of their vacation.
I think that trying to bring in the handful of illegal who may be leaving from PW as the source of our budget woes is wishful thinking. There is no negative impact from people leaving if they are not contributing and are here illegally.
Check out the 2008 Assessments for PWC at……
http://www4.pwcgov.org/realestate/landrover.asp
With such a DECREASE in property values it’s very clear the tax rate must raised this year. The foreclosures continue and will for a several more months.
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_031908_news_ice_deportation.897e209.html?npc#
“One is 21 year old Dalin Acosta-Echeverria, a slight woman from Mexico who arrived in the U.S. illegally 8 years ago. She said she cleaned hotel rooms in the Hillsboro area and earned $400 a week, much more than the $100 a month she expected to earn if returned to Mexico.”
Okay…here is the possible scenario…was the $400 taxed (income tax) or was it “off the books”? If it was not taxed…that is a nice chunk of change. Additionally, if she lives in a “bunk house” she is not paying her fair amount of property tax (another cost savings for her). If her pay was “off the books” she could claim that she doesn’t have income and needs foodstamps and WIC (another cost saving for her). With all of the “cost savings” she will have plenty of money for her luxury suv and sending money back “home”. Right? Right! This is how the SCAM works!
Lafayette said on 20 Mar 2008 at 8:14 am:
I do not feel the property values are to blame on the ILLEGAL aliens. I feel the greedy real estate agents and lenders as well as the stupid home buyers are to blame. I do not think they should be bailed out either. Make them pay for their mistakes, all of them. That is the only way this will not happen again. Yes, it is going to be tough for us here in the short term, but it will be better in the long term. We still have another round of ARMS to adjust and it is going to cause even more foreclosures, but until this runs its course, we will have to ride it out. Things will get better, we have to let everything make adjustments on its own. I remember the dot com bubble and it has happened with the housing market. The correction will hurt in the short term, but it will be good for us in the long run. No I do not own a home and I am glad I do not in this time. I was almost suckered into one of those ARM and I am glad I was not able to get the house. At the time, I didn’t understand, but I see now why.
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The Patriot (Got E-Verify?) said on 20 Mar 2008 at 9:10 am:
This is exactly how it works and until we do something about the 14th, it will continue.
Mr. Medic,
Absolutely! The greed is what the number one contributor to the depressed real estate market. We should NOT pay to bail their a$$es out. The banks et al made their bed and they should have to sleep in it.
Luckily, I in it for the long haul. The assesments will go back up, but in will a few years yet.
It’s obvious (to me, anyway) that the time has come for the school system to discern the number of illegal alien children and the number of offspring of illegal aliens it’s spending our money on. The children of the legal citizens of this County are being cheated out of a quality education because so much money is being spent on the freeloaders.
Advocator,
Precisely, sir!
corr: Luckily, I’M in it for the long haul. The assesments will go back up, but it will be a few years yet.
Lafayette said on 20 Mar 2008 at 10:04 am:
I am afraid the Gov’t will bail them out though. They have started by lowering the rate between banks. If this doesn’t do it, I see an EMERGENCY measure being pushed through congress to stop the bleeding. Unfortunately this is a significant wound and a simple bandage isn’t going to cover it. This is going to require some serious considerations and amputation may be in order (letting some of the banks go under). {sarcasm on} Of course this will cause widespread panic and dogs and cats to start fornicating in the streets!! {/sarcasm off}
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Advocator said on 20 Mar 2008 at 10:09 am:
It is obvious to me as well and I have asked that question in the past. It is ignored for the most part.
I think ALL adults associated with any child that is enrolling for any kind of benefits or education must provide proof of legal residency (and I am not talking about a phone/utility bill that gets passed around from one person to the next). We must demand that illegals be identified once and for all.
Perhaps people should look at the impact the real estate markets are having on other branches of the economy before we all start singing the ‘don’t bail them out’ song and dance. It honestly isn’t that simple.
On the other hand, I suppose some people here would have been against the CCC and TVA during the great depression.
County government will NOT shut down over a stalemeate, Greg. To the contrary, this may be a positive development for County taxpayers. By virtue of State law, if agreement is not reached, the rate is set at the level which would produce 101% of the prior year’s revenue. Not sure what that would be, but a shutdown of County government is not in the cards, as far as I know.
James-
That statute does not apply because property values are falling. That’s why the county attorney has said that if the Supervisors don’t reach an agreement, there will be “no budget.” Basically, a government shut down.
Emerald Eyes said on 20 Mar 2008 at 10:54 am:
Please, then tell me what it is because I do not want my tax dollars going to bail out people for making dumb choices and lenders being greedy and predatory.
Ducky: Your “obvious” is not really obvious at all. There is an owner of record for the property and that owner is liable for the property taxes. Just because a house is vacant doesn’t mean it’s not taxed. It still has value and still has an owner (even if it is a bank or mortgage company that foreclosed), and, thus, still adds money to the county revenue via property taxes.
It will be in interesting to see in the long run just what the effect of the “Rule of Law” resolution really is. While I have no doubt that many of the victories Greg claims are indeed a result of the resolution, I also think there are some other (major) factors at play–foremost among them the slow down in the building and construction industry which was a primary draw for many of the illegal’s in our midst. Without the need for lots of labor, there isn’t the draw of lucrative work in the area. It would be interesting to see, for example, when most of these ESOL students left. Was there a marked increase in departures around the time the resolution went into effect or was there already an exodus underway fed by the lack of work? If the housing market picks up again and the building starts full bore again, it will be interesting to see whether the successes of the Rule of Law hold firm. As I have said from early on, any enforcement of the law needs to address not only the people who are here illegally, but also those who profit from them being here. There need to be meaningful penalties for those who knowingly hire (and in many cases, exploit) illegal immigrant labor.
I am not sure that many people made dumb choices. I certainly am not going to sit here and say that people who now owe more on their house than what it is worth made a dumb mistake either. The economy supported their decisions. A perfect storm happened. Credit got tight and ARM loans reset. Many people were unable to refinance their loans.
Yes, scum bags took advantage of people and I believe we see that in the Northern VA area but that is just a snapshot of the national economic situation. If there isn’t federal intervention, there will be a economic crisis in this country. Think about what happened on Monday. The govt stepped in and averted a financial disaster.
Bear Stearns was the fifth largest investment banker in the country. It has withstood the Great Depression. In a matter of hours it went from ‘things don’t look so good’ to critical mass. Had it failed, the ripple effect spilling over into all areas of finance could have been a catastrophic.
http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-bzqanda0318,0,7799736.story
We will see real action (self-deportation) once we start having some local illegal alien ICE raids. That is what is needed NOW. Let us be one of the many daily news stories of carrying out a successful ICE raid.
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/80276.php
“The training lets police officers make immigration arrests while carrying out their regular duties.”
The losers, as usual, are the County employees (that are not part of the County school system) any time there is a bump in the County’s finances due to poor economic conditions. While gas prices soar, food, heating oil, and other cost of living increases, the County Executive chooses again, which has always been his first choice, to deny any cost of living increases to those that do the work. Also, discussion is to deny any pay increases for time in service at evaluation time. How about forgetting about 3.1 million for cameras in police cruisers that have nothing to do with immigration enforcement, and provide some funds so that your County employees can continue to afford food and gas for our cars to drive to work. We have to drive lengthly distances because many can’t afford to even live in this County. Hard to understand why anyone would think this is a positive situation….
Once we get rid of our illegal alien problem…there will be plenty more money to go around.
The Patriot (Got E-Verify?) said on 20 Mar 2008 at 2:09 pm:
We will see real action (self-deportation) once we start having some local illegal alien ICE raids. That is what is needed NOW. Let us be one of the many daily news stories of carrying out a successful ICE raid.
Don’t you wonder why there are no ICE raids in this area? One would think with the large illegal population that ICE would just once in a while (for appearances sake if for nothing else) raid the McDonalds chains and the groups outside of the 7-11’s. Guess they are too busy and these places are just too far down the food chain and don’t make headlines.
Emerald Eyes said on 20 Mar 2008 at 2:02 pm:
I am not sure that many people made dumb choices.
The question is why Bear Stearns needed a bailout. The banking industry was warned well in advance of the real estate bubble burst that it was coming and that the no interest, no papers, no nada loans were going to cause a major problem in the economy. The banking industry ignored the warnings because of their greed and now the taxpayer is going to baill the banks out so they can get back to business as usual.
Emerald Eyes said on 20 Mar 2008 at 2:02 pm:
It was a dumb choice to buy more house than you could reasonably afford.
It was a dumb choice to sign the loan documents without giving any thought to whether or not the rate may change or the market may change.
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999, I do not think Bear and Stearns should have been bailed out. They made their bed, they should have had to lie in it.
It is obvious that many do not understand past Manassas, Virginia.
Let’s put it another way. Would you prefer that the government guarantee loans to JP Morgan Chase so that they could buy out Bear Stearns or would you prefer the economy to tank?
It is a dumb choice to ever buy a house or to refinance a house if you look at it that way, Medic. How does one know that one will always have a job? You don’t. How do you know interest rates won’t change? You don’t. How do you know that you will maintain your health or that you won’t divorce your spouse? You don’t. How do you know your spouse won’t die and leave a single income to support a bunch of kids? You don’t. How do you know there will not be a natural or man-made disaster that takes away your food or energy? You don’t.
It is real easy to sit back in judgement of others. Not everyone moved in to a palace. Not everyone even moved. Once you attach a face to some of these people the finger pointing becomes more blurred.
Rather than considering myself wise than those poor people who have lost their home, I am considering myself fortunate. Some people are reaping what they sowed. Others are just hard working people who got slammed.
Emerald Eyes,
Let’s see. I thought you were in the Land of Oz, but you speak of the history of Manassas. Hmm.
Momma always said, “Read the fine print. You never know watcha gonna get.”
“Mary” Nohe … ?
Freedom..Ducky is wrong, sorry if I’ve disappointed you but the mortgage lenders do take responsibility for property taxes after a mortgage foreclosure. The county can count on the tax revenue even if the home is vacant, abandoned, etc.
Ari,
You are right, the taxes will be paid. I am title examiner in PWC, and I’ve not noticed any increase in the number of delinquencies this past year.
I am glad to see you posting here again on a more regular basis.
The school system has found their money for the 2009 budget.
As for the county, it’s time to reduce spending and the size of government and leave the tax rate the same.
The BoCS needs put the residents first, and government second. By leaving the tax rate the same we can revitalize the currently flat housing market, and improve the local economy.
This is just an advertised rate , but there is no need or justification to go above 98.6.
BKA,
The Clerk of the Circuit Court has already started “down sizing” the number of employees and the space they occupy.
Public Services which is currently at the “old courthouse” will be moving to the current courthouse and share the space where land records is at. Public Services includes Marriage License, Wills, Notary, and Business Licens, etc. The county is currently paying $$ for rental of the “old courthouse”. I do hate the fact that folks are getting “layed off”. I sure various other offices in the county are looking similar types of ways to “cut back” some.
I agree 98.6 should be the limit.
Lafayette,
Even in the Land of Oz, one can still see just fine.
I would set the tax rate at $1.03 which gives the wiggle room one needs to do the business of Prince William County. All I heard all fall was that it was fine to raise everyone’s taxes just to get that resolution in place. Well now it is in place, let’s see that all county services and the schools are funded. I only really listen to one person on the money, and that is where it needs to be set.
Or, lets put it another way, I know who I do NOT listen to with the funny math.
SPPPPIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNN
Let me make sure I understand this, “workingstiff”: the housing market is down, but government and it’s employees are NOT supposed to take the attendant hit?
Wow. Tell that to the restauranteurs, automobile industry, and other retailers, and other businesses required to cut back in a down economy.
Our bloated County government — particularly the ridiculously-bloated and manifestly-inefficient government schools bureaucracy — is not and should not be immune to the limitations imposed by economic down times. According to the County, my home has lost tens of thousands of dollars in value. I’m not interested in hearing how poor government employees like Superintendent Waltz can’t get by on a quarter of million dollar salary without a $14,000 pay raise.
If they don’t like what the County is offering, let them go out into the market and get real jobs.
“It is real easy to sit back in judgement of others. Not everyone moved in to a palace. Not everyone even moved.”
True Emerald Eyes…but those that refinanced with subprime loans at ridiculously inflated assessments based on a ridiculously inflated market took a ridiculous risk out of greed, and they lost. When you gamble and lose, you take the consequences. We’re STILL getting offers to refinance for amounts that are at least $200-250K above any reasonable value that should be attached to OUR property! Anyone with half an ounce of sense could have seen what was coming, particularly if they’ve lived in this area for awhile. The ONLY people for whom I have any sympathy are those who had the misfortune of being transferred into the area for their jobs, or took a job in this area (legally, of course), and had no choice but to pay those ridiculously inflated prices and wound up buying into a market that was bound to crash…I have none, nor should anyone, for the greedy (including the bankers, real estate agents, and loan companies).
If anyone ever wanted to see just how incompetent the BOCS supervisors are they just need to look at this past Tuesday and the failed atempt to advertise any tax rate so there could be a public hearing where the citizens would have maybe 3 minutes to comment to the Board. As they did not set a rate to be advertised there will be no public hearing as scheduled.
I have always looked at May as being Stewart’s puppy dog. Tuesday he proved without a dobth to be one of the most fiscaly dumb people there is on the Board.
Advertising a possible tax rate has nothing what so ever to do with the amount of money the BOCS will spend next year.
The BOCS knew no facts what so ever but yet May had already determined what the actual Tax Rate should be for next year.
May nor anyone on the Board or the County Government knew what the total assesed value of property is in the county. They did not know what they are going to spend. They did not know what income will be coming from the State. With all the facts that are needed in order to make a decission are unknowns then you can not determin what a tax rate might be. The problem or “Law” is that you can always lower the tax rate that is advertised but you can not increase it. What difference would it make if they advertised a 2.00 rate? It would no difference but it would allow the county to be sure they will fund what is deterimed is necessary for the coming year. Of course if May, Stewart,Stirrup and others can not control what is spent that is their problem. The BOCS lied when they said that the 800 million dollar bond would not increase taxes. As you should know they keep putting off projects because they do not have the income to pay the debt service without raising taxes.
May is so incompetent that he did not know what the negative fiscal impact by not advertising a tax rate it will cause the county to loose more money. Of course that could be nothing compared to how incompetent PWC looks to the Financial community which set our credit rating or sell our bonds.
The Public loves to be lied to and told what they want to hear. Well folks you got what you wanted and now you have a complete failure in this county.
Bob, I think you may be missing what the actual political battle is here. After seeing tax increases over the past decade far exceeding the annual inflation rate plus the county’s population growth, there seems to be at least a strong minority that demands that government expenditures don’t outstrip the ability of taxpayers to support it. By limiting the advertised rate, spending is effectively held in check, and that’s what this is really all about.
Over the past decade, with last year as the sole exception, county spending has increased far above the inflation rate and the county’s population growth. That trend cannot continue if we are to have a sustainable county budget. If we advertised a $2 rate as you suggest, any effort to limit spending would be extremely difficult, and we’d be right back where we were.
The reason the bond issue gets put off is that in order to keep our bond rating, total bond payments may not exceed 10% of county tax revenues. If revenues don’t go up as expected, you have to hold off on the bond unless you want to see interest payments go through the roof.
Keep your eye on the ball here.
Yes Ari, I agree with you. My comment to Ducky about “being correct the first time” was in reference to his correction of his earlier post about illegal aliens leaving the county; he said “country” the first time.
http://www.kpho.com/news/15654544/detail.html
“PHOENIX — Nearly 200 sheriff’s deputies and posse members are poised to launch a new patrol in two areas of Phoenix after business owners complained of rising crime, Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio said.”
Okay….LOOK….obviously Sheriff Joe understands how to go about rounding up illegal aliens in a legal manner! Why isn’t Chief Deane doing the SAME THING! Get going CHIEF! DO YOUR JOB! Maybe you should call Sheriff Joe for training! We must demand action NOW!
http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200880320160
“ASHEVILLE – A city councilman is calling for federal immigration agents to investigate downtown construction workers, who he says are likely undocumented workers.”
It is time for us (the legal citizens) to start reporting on a regular basis….particularly if you see companies pick up “day laborers”.
Greg L said on 21 Mar 2008 at 2:33 am:
Bob, I think you may be missing what the actual political battle is here. After seeing tax increases over the past decade far exceeding the annual inflation rate plus the county’s population growth, there seems to be at least a strong minority that demands that government expenditures don’t outstrip the ability of taxpayers to support it. By limiting the advertised rate, spending is effectively held in check, and that’s what this is really all about.
Greg I honestly thought you were much smarter then to make such a comment as above. The advertised rate has NOTHING to do with the spending by the BOCS. One would conclude that you have absolutly no confidence in a majority of the board to spend wisely. Would you set a rate to charge some one for sevices when you did not know what the cost would be to you, the amount of time you were going to spend on the project, the amount of money the customer has to pay you? Of course not but it is ok for the BOCS to advertise a rate without knowing any FACTS what so ever? Greg you can not be that financialy stupid. So why do you accept that from the BOCS ? Running this county is not some game the May and his like minded act as it is. In the realy world this Board of Directors would be kicked out. Well that is not true is it. In the real world they will retire get hugh bonuses and the company will file for bankruptcy and the workers will loose their jobs. Of course you would be outraged over that but not when it is your buddies on the BOCS. Is that not kind of what is happening to the citizens of PWC?
Over the past decade, with last year as the sole exception, county spending has increased far above the inflation rate and the county’s population growth. That trend cannot continue if we are to have a sustainable county budget. If we advertised a $2 rate as you suggest, any effort to limit spending would be extremely difficult, and we’d be right back where we were.
I do not disagree with the run away spending by the BOCS and I have been dealing with them for over 37 years and nothing has changed. The tax rate that is advertised has nothing to do with what is spent. It is the incompentency of the lack of leadership of Stewart and the whole board is total. At the same time why do you or anyone think that cost will not increase but I do agree it is out of line. That is also a product of when Government goes about running ever aspect of one life and controlling your property. If you ever figured out why the Proffer System is a failure you might even come to a way to pay for Capital Expenditures with out having to increase revenues by 120 million to pay 12 million in debt service. Proffers are a TAX no matter how you spell it. Caddigan and May like to whine about ” Stale Zonning ” vacant land that is zoned. why is not the extra revenue that is generated by the higher then A-1 zoning values not applied to Capital expense rather then just spent for the gereral expenses. That may be too difficult for you to understand but if you ever what to learn I will be glad to teach you. Neither you nor any politician state or local even know why the proffer system came about and none of you would have agreeded with PWC in the Hylton Case.
The reason the bond issue gets put off is that in order to keep our bond rating, total bond payments may not exceed 10% of county tax revenues. If revenues don’t go up as expected, you have to hold off on the bond unless you want to see interest payments go through the roof.
Greg you have a selective memory when it comes to the BOCS. All of their publication about getting the bond issues passed said ” There will be no tax increase if you vote to pass the bond issues of 800 million” Do you accept lie from legals but not from illegals ? The public and it seems you bought right into the lie and still do not get it do you. Yes the county has to increase by a dollar to have ten cents to pay debt service and you can thank the General Assymbly and your BOCS for such a Liberal way to pay debt service. This bond issue will generate some 12 million or more in debt service payments and where was this money going to come from knowing you had to have some extra 120 million in taxes to make the payment? you will HAVE TO RAISE TAXES. This was a known fiscal effect when the BOCS asked the tax payers to approve the bonds. That is right to lie to the public is OK and why don’t you bring this up in your BOG?
Keep your eye on the ball here.
Greg I have known more about the ball then you will ever know and when you will find out where the ball is at all? You could do so much good for PWC if you just took an open and honest approach to letting the people of PWC honestly know what is going on. That is something I do not understand why you do not go after.
Man, this Wills guy is a freakin’ genius! Let’s get him to run for the BOCS. It seems like he’s got an answer for everything! And, if you’re lucky, Greg, he’s willing to “teach” you all of his wisdom. Man, what a deal!
Bob, I support the idea that first government has to set a limit as to how much of our taxpayer dollars it’s going to spend, and then from that limited spending determine what the priorities are. Heck, that’s the way you and I do budgeting. By eliminating such a spending cap, which is what the advertised rate effectively imposes, you encourage the BOCS to go at this differently — increase spending for each and every “worthy” idea up to the point that the electorate starts screaming bloody murder, and then stop. This second alternative was the way of Connaughton, which gave us double-digit tax increases well beyond inflation and population growth.
And no, I do not trust the majority of the Board to exercise fiscal responsibility.
As far as the debt service limits, those are not imposed by liberals, conservatives, or government at all, but are determined by the bond rating agencies which are commercial businesses which rate the quality of the investment opportunities for their clients. You are correct that debt service payments are paid out of the general fund, and I recall no one asserting otherwise. Whether these debt service payments automatically require tax increases has a lot to do with whether the board can prioritize spending rather than see the taxpayers as a somewhat bottomless pit of free money, which is where the advertised tax rate becomes relevant.
I fear we’re beginning to talk past each other here.
no name said on 21 Mar 2008 at 11:09 am:
Man, this Wills guy is a freakin’ genius! Let’s get him to run for the BOCS. It seems like he’s got an answer for everything! And, if you’re lucky, Greg, he’s willing to “teach” you all of his wisdom. Man, what a deal!
No genius but I do know my history in the finances of the county and what helps people.
If you do not lie you do not have to remember the last lie you told. Any thing that government imposes on the public is a TAX no matter how you spell it or what you call it for. I would rather pay a Tax that I can deduct on my tax return rather then pay the government and not be able to deduct it.
Lets take the Car Decal “fee” It is 24.00 per car and most houses have two cars so that cost them 48.00 per year. If the income generated by the Decals amounted to .01 cent on the tax rate each house hold could save money by increasing the RE Tax rate and eliminating the Decal Fee. The county could still mail out the decals with the PP Tax bill for only the cost of the printing as the postage and envelope and stuffing is what is needed to send out the bill anyways.
Look at your RE Assesment and if it is less then 480,000.00 then you would pay less then the 48.00 automaticly. If this is applied to the RE Tax Rate then all the vacant lond, office, commercial and industrial properties would be paying this revenue stream as well. Then you have the fact that as a deduction you would get back .06 % on the state return and 10% or more on your federal taxes depending on your tax rate. Gee that would help the public but you can be sure that May, Stewart, Stirrup and the rest of the board do not have enough brains nor the desire to help the citizens of PWC. If you have three vechilces you could save even more.
What is difficult about that? It is just common sense and it is helping the people not someone’s political ideology.
Oh the public does not know what a TAX is do they so call it just a fee and the public buys into the lie.
Greg L said on 21 Mar 2008 at 12:23 pm:
Bob, I support the idea that first government has to set a limit as to how much of our taxpayer dollars it’s going to spend, and then from that limited spending determine what the priorities are. Heck, that’s the way you and I do budgeting.
I do budgeting based on KNOWN facts not ” what might be” And if you do not know your base nor what the cost are you can not set an kind of rate on what to charge. Why do you not demand that the BOCS to do it on the same bases as a in the real world ?
By eliminating such a spending cap, which is what the advertised rate effectively imposes, you encourage the BOCS to go at this differently — increase spending for each and every “worthy” idea up to the point that the electorate starts screaming bloody murder, and then stop.
I am not encouragein the BOCS to apend any more by passing a non meaning tax rate. I am saying lets get into the discussion and have public hearing, which have to be advertised in advance of the hearings. what has happened now is the public will not be able to speak except at Citizens time and if too many people come the Stewart will cut short the time for Citizens so he can get home early. The BOCS now shows the world they can not move in an orderly mannor and who knows what they will do next.
This second alternative was the way of Connaughton, which gave us double-digit tax increases well beyond inflation and population growth.
I never incourage the board to take more control of our lives and property and to have someone else pay for our cost whcih is what the Proffer System does.
And no, I do not trust the majority of the Board to exercise fiscal responsibility.
Then why do you keep quite and why do you ever support anyone on the board?
As far as the debt service limits, those are not imposed by liberals, conservatives, or government at all, but are determined by the bond rating agencies which are commercial businesses which rate the quality of the investment opportunities for their clients.
Greg the limits of 10% is imposed by the state and you do not understand taxes. In other state you can issue bonds which are guarated by the full faith and credit of the taxing authorty. The General Assembly could present a constitutional change which would allow that certain taxes such as a Capital Improvment tax applied to each and every structure that is built would be pledged in total for the payment of bonds for Capital Improvments. This would be a dollar for dollar payment and would not require an additonal 90
% increase in additional taxes for general expenses. There should also be a 1% grantors tax on RE transactions which goes to the local county or city and could only be used for payment of the CIP bonds. No one has made the money TAX FREE that home owners have made and paid nothing back to the county/ city in which they lived. In additon the difference of value between A-1 and the zoned value of vacant land should also be taken out of general revenue and applied only to the CIP payments. When that property is built on they would be given some kind of credit toward the CIP tax for some years as many of these properties have been paying a higher tax, as they should, and are now being taxed as if it just happened. If a CIP tax was applied when property was rezoned then the county/ city would have an immediate sourse of funds with which to pay for the needed off site CIP that would be impacted when the property is developed.
You are correct that debt service payments are paid out of the general fund, and I recall no one asserting otherwise. Whether these debt service payments automatically require tax increases has a lot to do with whether the board can prioritize spending rather than see the taxpayers as a somewhat bottomless pit of free money, which is where the advertised tax rate becomes relevant.
When you know that a bond issue is going to cause an increase outlay of money of some 12 million dollars you either have to know that an extra revenue stream is going to be created or you know what 12 million is going to be cut out of the current budget. I can not immagin that you think because you pass a bond issue that you are automaticly going to cut expenses. You want extra money to be spent for immigration issues and you are willing to increase taxes for that but at least you acknowledge that it will cost more in taxes. The bond issue is based on a lie of no tax increse or in effect no impact on our taxes or servces.
I fear we’re beginning to talk past each other here.
I deal in facts and soultions and if you have a better idea please put it out here so PWC will be a better place in which to live and not cost as much
Mr. Wills:
I agree and I’ll go one better on the decal fee, yes bump up the real property tax to compensate for the lost revenue, charge a one-time $10.00 fee for a “registration” decal (fee covers the cost of printing and mailing) good for the period of time you own the vehicle and then twelve months later RIF three-quarters of the staff that currently handle the decals. By doing that you spread the tax over the breadth of the county and at the same time reduce both the red tape and staffing levels of the county. See Greg, it really is simple and BTW, Mr. Wills is right about the nature of the real fight. Wouldn’t suprise me if the tepid supporters of the “Resolution” are biding they’re time until Corey has to make a decision between higher taxes and funding the “Resolution”. As they say, paybacks a bitch.
STAFF CUTS?
The public was told that 13 jobs were cut at the county, but not a dime has been paid in unemployment benefits. Why? Those same employees were transferred to other jobs within county government!
What a joke!
98.6 means our tax bills stay the same, but why shouldn’t they drop? The value of our homes have fallen by tens of thousands of dollars.
My home has dropped in value by approx. $80,000 in the last 2 years. Why SHOULD I be expected to pay the same amount in property taxes?
The major issue here folks is that government is placing their needs ahead of it’s people. What message does that send us?
Write letters to the editor, email your supervisors, and speak at Citizens Time. We don’t have to take this lying down. The budget needs to be cut!
BKA said on 21 Mar 2008 at 5:14 pm:
98.6 means our tax bills stay the same, but why shouldn’t they drop? The value of our homes have fallen by tens of thousands of dollars.
My home has dropped in value by approx. $80,000 in the last 2 years. Why SHOULD I be expected to pay the same amount in property taxes?
The major issue here folks is that government is placing their needs ahead of it’s people. What message does that send us?
Write letters to the editor, email your supervisors, and speak at Citizens Time. We don’t have to take this lying down. The budget needs to be cut!
BKA
This is why politicians like Stewart, May and FRederick keep on getting elected. It does not matter what your house is assesed at nor what the tax rate is either. It only matter what the county SPENDS!!!!!!! Now that the BOCS can not even figure out how to advertise any tax rate so that the public can speak on what is being spent the BOCS have once again proved they can not nor do they care if this county operates. RE Taxes will not go down because the assesments is lower. Keep on voting to elect the con people and you will get nothing solved…
I vote Bob Willis
I have and will continue to listen to what you have to say.My ears are on good buddy!
sorry, “what you talking about Willis”came to mind…correction: Wills
Bob Wills asks “Why SHOULD I be expected to pay the same amount in property taxes?”
Well, Bob, you probably shouldn’t, given Chairman Sean’s seven-year spending spree. But it is reasonable to halt spending increases before demanding cuts.
For one thing, it will have the beneficial effect of belying the dire predictions of our various County Chicken Littles.
Cutting spending on unnecessary programs seems to be the best solution. Why raise taxes in a downturning economy? Does everybody want to make the situation worse? We should start with e-verify of all food stamp, wic, and all social services programs as well as prohibiting taxpayer funds to illegals other than what is mandated in the 14th Amendment and proper enforcement of laws against illegals and their employers already on the books. Of which the 14th is badly in need of a change for the better. Chris Cummings
Ari Stotle said on 21 Mar 2008 at 4:57 pm:
STAFF CUTS?
Two people have lost their jobs in the Clerk’s Office, their last day is this coming Friday. They were NOT offered another position within in the county.
Don’t give up Tell your Sheriff to get some advise from Sheriff Joe Arpaio in Maricopa County Az how to do your job on a limited budget. Heck he might even take some illegals off your hands if you ask him. I think he does work crews. He uses tents. Serves a budget friendly meals and Lets them watch the disney channel and other family friendly programs. He puts them in pink underwear. There is someone who is running for Attorney general in Virginia in 2009 Here are his positions .
Cuccinelli running for AG in Va.
Associated Press
March 31, 2008
RICHMOND — Kenneth T. Cuccinelli, one of the state Senate’s most outspoken conservatives, announced today he will run for attorney general in 2009.
In announcing his candidacy in Fairfax, Cuccinelli emphasized he is a “conservative at heart” and won’t be moved.
“It’s not just positions. It’s who I am,” he said in a statement.
Cuccinelli, 39, is among the Senate’s most forceful opponents of abortion rights, gun control, gay rights and no-fault divorce, an advocate for classroom prayer in public schools and crackdowns on illegal or undocumented immigrants.
But Cuccinelli, a lawyer in private practice, has much more quietly established himself as an authority in the General Assembly on issues affecting the mentally ill.
Cuccinelli’s announcement follows by one week the announcement by Republican Lt. Gov. Bill Bolling to pass on a run for governor. His decision, along with former Gov. George Allen’s choice to sit out the race, leaves Attorney General Bob McDonnell uncontested for the GOP nomination.
Cuccinelli won the 39th District seat from western Fairfax County in a 2002 special election, succeeding Republican Sen. Warren E. Barry, who resigned to head the state Alcoholic Beverage Control Board.
Five years later, with Democrats resurgent statewide, Cuccinelli raised more than $1.2 million to defeat Democratic challenger Janet Oleszek.
His re-election was affirmed only after a recount found that he won by 101 votes out of more than 37,000 cast.
Two other Republican senators from Fairfax County the state’s most populous locality lost their seats to Democrats, and Cuccinelli’s narrow victory makes him the lone GOP senator from the immediate suburbs of Washington, D.C.
Cuccinelli’s record of supporting legislation to substantially curb abortion access, crack down on illegal aliens and battle what he calls “the homosexual agenda” has made him a hero of religious and social conservatives, a following he has nurtured for years as a political base for his first statewide run.
Most of the six anti-abortion bills he has sponsored in his 1 [1/2] terms in the Senate went after clinics that perform abortions and would have put most of them out of business by requiring them to meet the same equipment and construction standards as hospitals.
In the legislative session that ended March 13, Cuccinelli sponsored legislation that would have given employers the right to fire employees who can’t or don’t speak English only on the job.
He has sponsored eight bills expanding the right to sell or carry guns and opposed an effort to close a loophole that allows the mentally ill and felons to buy firearms at gun shows from unlicensed traders. Relatives of 32 people slain at Virginia Tech nearly one year ago had lobbied emotionally for the legislation, though the mentally disturbed gunman bought his weapons from licensed firearms retailers.
Cuccinelli, however, was sponsoring legislation to tighten Virginia’s broken system of identifying and treating the mentally ill — by court fiat if necessary — long before the Tech killings.
Since 2004, Cuccinelli has authored nearly 30 bills on the issue, including six during the 2007 session that dealt with judicial commitments for those needing mental health services.
Weeks later, the Tech massacre was carried out by Seung-Hui Cho, a student who had slipped through the mental health care system despite behavior that repeatedly alarmed members of the university’s faculty, administration, police and other students. A court’s order that Cho receive help was futile.
In the 2008 session, Cuccinelli was the Senate’s top authority on the issue as the General Assembly enacted a broad slate of mental health reforms in response to the carnage.
keep looking for the right people to vote for
One more page then I’ll stop Just passing this on You can join free and get updated e-mails
From: Roy Beck, President, NumbersUSA
Date: Monday 31MAR08 8 p.m. EDT
Push congressional candidates in YOUR area to take our immigration reform survey
FRIENDS, YOU CAN HELP CREATE A BETTER CONGRESS FOR NEXT YEAR . . .
We need each of you to pressure both incumbents and challengers in your congressional district and your state to take our immigration survey.
www.betterimmigration.com/candidates/2008/candidatesurvey2008.html
About the only way we get a better Congress is if the people running for election feel it is in their best interest to promise the immigration actions that all of us want.
NumbersUSA has just put on-line 479 new web pages of congressional and gubernatorial Primary Election races. Each of these pages is a grid to display the results of immigration surveys we have sent to candidates for:
435 seats in the U.S. House of Representatives
33 U.S. Senate seats
11 state Governors
You can see all races (there aren’t many yet) in which at least one candidate has taken our survey and indicated that they want to be seen as a True Immigration Reform Candidate. Click here for this short opening list of races with a True Immigration Reform Candidate.
www.betterimmigration.com/candidates/2008/featuredraces.html
To send a survey with a request to a candidate to fill it out:
(1) go to this page www.betterimmigration.com/candidates/2008/2008candidates.html
(2) click on your state’s two-letter identifier,
(3) and then click on the race in which you are interested. You’ll see an icon at the top of the page for emailing a survey to a candidate.
You can find an email address for the candidates by clicking on their names on the RACE pages and finding how to contact them on their own campaign websites.
Don’t hesitate to pick up a phone and call them, too.
If you favor any of the candidates to represent you in the U.S. Senate or House, you will want to help them present themselves as True Immigration Reformers.
During the last two election cycles, these ABI candidate pages (a project of NumbersUSA) were the most-viewed and used parts of the internet for people wanting to know candidates’ immigration positions.
We will be constantly updating these 479 pages as new information pours in.
For candidates to be your state’s governor, here is the survey for governors: www.betterimmigration.com/candidates/2008/candidatesurveygov2008.html
We are completely non-partisan. We have no desire to promote one Party over the other. Every candidate has an equal opportunity to be displayed as a True Immigration Reformer.
We do NOT endorse candidates. We know people support and vote for candidates on the basis of a lot of different issues, the character and experience of the candidates and other factors. But we want all voters to know as much as possible about a candidate’s immigration positions so as to weight that with the final vote.
Thanks so much for all the pressure you can put on candidates to fill out the survey well.
THANKS, Roy
This may be a good time for you to make sure that you’ve let us know all of the areas you are interested in. In order to further customize the type of alerts you receive click here http://www.numbersusa.com/survey?action=longlist
As a NumbersUSA subscriber, you will receive occasional emails about immigration-related opportunities. If you want to increase or reduce the frequency of these emails, click here and choose from Total Activism, Moderate Activism, or Limited Activism at the bottom of your registration form: http://www.numbersusa.com/user
NumbersUSA - relies upon individuals like you to reach its goal of an environmentally sustainable and economically just America.
Now a word from me american gal
Passing this on Check out other groups like yourself There are tons of them Get some support from them Be Active Get Involved Speak up
Best to you all in Prince William County Thanks for fighting a good fight. Take a deep breath and get busy again. Don’t let up this is a country worth fighting for. Will send a list of other websites for you to check out later.
It’s all about the RULE OF LAW tell them ENFORCE OUR LAWS OR WE WILL FIND A CANDIDATE WHO WILL! Get on those phones call your reps and governors fax, try numbers usa.com or capwiz.com does free faxes or emails
It’s all preset for you
To keep you motivated no ones better than Terry Anderson His radio show
is on the internet. Free to all sunday nights 9 pm pacific time He has been doing this with out pay only donations to stay on the air He is Awesome
www.theterryandersonshow.com OR
outraged patriots show at www.theAmericanVoice.com monday 8-10 central time.
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT I know I lose steam sometimes and get down so
Also there is MM Radio Tonight 7:00 PST, 8 MST, 9 CST, 10 EST
www.kknt960.com is another show that will keep you informed.
get support from others to reinvigorate your resolve