Mexicans Without Borders Defaces Manassas Again
By Greg L | 25 March 2008 | Illegal Aliens, Manassas City | 148 Comments
This is the best (updated 3/25) picture I’ve received so far of the most recent billboard in Manassas on Prince William Street, courtesy of Mexicans Without Borders. This one tops even the original billboard in sheer inanity, and seems to make the claim that illegal aliens in Virginia are actually Native Americans who are being unlawfully discriminated against because of “artificial borders”. As dumb ideas go, this is hard to top.
For those who aren’t up to speed on the saga of this property, it used to be the side of a beautiful and historic house built in the 1800’s on the edge of the historic African-American community in Manassas, and is within the City’s historic district. According to the Manassas City Fire Department, that residence suffered a serious electrical fire as a result of the basement being subdivided into multiple living spaces to facilitate residential overcrowding, with extension cords being run from the second story windows down to the basement. The structure was improperly protected from the elements after the fire and was eventually condemned by the city, and ordered demolished. The owner’s agent, a Mr. Fernandez, left one wall remaining which is the support structure for this billboard, which was ruled a violation of city zoning ordinances. Mr. Fernandez sought to have the property rezoned, and was denied by the Manassas City Council.
As far as I can determine, this is what the sign says:
PWC and Manassas City the National Capital of intolerance
European American exterminated millions of Native Americans in order to steal America, they were the first illegal aliens. European Amercians have a 500 year history of rape, theft, murder, slavery, artificial borders, Jim Crow laws and deportations of Native Americans.
Since 1866 the KKK rode at night to torture, lynch and kill blacks, Native Americans and other people of color. Today the actions of PWC and Manassas City Council are similar to collaboration between local governments and the KKK in the 1900s.
On 2.25.08 Manassas City Mayor Douglas S. Waldron said I am proud that finally we came to agreement with P W C to implement 287g, because we care about our community what community!? 287g is an agreement with Immigration and Customs Enforcement to detain and question Native Americans by police officers at their discretion.
PWC and Manassas City persecute us with our own tax dollars because European Americans would rather have a ghost town than live among Native Americans.
They ignore our voices, they ignore our civil and constitutional rights, there is no democracy. Stop the persecution. We demand equality and justice for all. We will not be the slaves of the 21st century.
Note: transcription corrected 3/25.
The philosophy that appears to underpin this screed is that of the Mexica Movement, which contends that all of North America properly belongs to those of indigenous heritage, that all nations in the Western Hemisphere established by Europeans are illegitimate, and that those of European ethnicity residing in North America should be returned to Europe. Instead of demanding the return of only a few southwestern states to Mexican sovereignty as is the case with the Aztlan movement, the Mexica Movement seeks to place the entirety of North America under the control of indigenous peoples. The Mexica Movement has a following in California (the picture at left was taken in Los Angeles), and perhaps now has a foothold in Virginia.
It is rather curious that the illegal alien lobby seeks to suddenly redefine all their “undocumented” as “Native Americans”, as if slapping a new label on those who have violated our laws will suddenly transform them from lawbreakers into sympathetic victims who were involuntarily crossed by an “artificial border”. This recent hard shift in strategy and possible alignment with yet another radical movement — one with disturbing overtones of racial superiority and cultural separatism — may well be an even greater public relations gaffe than their previous open alignment with the Zapatista Army of National Liberation.
While working toward that long-range goal, [the Mexica Movement] counsels its people to steadfastly eschew any impulse to assimilate into America’s illegitimate society or to embrace its inherently corrupt values. “We are educating our people against the ignorant suicidal assimilation into European blood and culture,” says [the Mexica Movement]. “… Assimilation is the slow motion kill. Assimilation means marrying white to kill the brown in us, to kill the heart of us. Assimilation means the end of us. Assimilation sucks us down into the white race. Assimilation kills our race. Assimilation is the death of us. Assimilation is racism. Assimilation is Genocide.”
This most recent effort at political advocacy again demonstrates how the local illegal alien lobby is fatally out of touch with political reality in Virginia, creating an outrage that is likely to produce a tremendous backlash. Manassas City residents deeply appreciate the public service of outgoing Mayor Doug Waldron, who is about as far removed from extremism as one could possibly imagine, and targeting him personally is a serious political miscalculation. While Manassas City residents might possibly be getting bored with smears of being KKK sympathizers, having Mexicans Without Borders attack Doug Waldron by name may well solidify public opinion against the illegal alien lobby and add momentum to efforts to reduce the number of illegal aliens unlawfully residing in Manassas City.
The City Council has demonstrated a tremendous degree of restraint in dealing with the public nuisance that Mr. Fernandez continues to make of himself. I’m not sure how much longer that restraint will last, as Mr. Fernandez increasingly demonstrates that he is spectacularly undeserving of such deference.
UPDATE: Some quotes from the leader of Mexicans Without Borders, Ricardo Juarez-Nava, might help to provide some context to the new verbiage that adorns Manassas’ historic district at the moment:
Change, justice, and the recognition of our rights will not be achieved through electoral politics. Autonomous struggles are more transcendent and have more impact; traditional politics have been discredited.”
The struggle against social inequality, poverty, and the privatization of public property, that is to say the struggle against capitalism, is the connection with revolutionary potential. We have to question the legitimacy and existence of the establishment as forcefully as possible”
The system has separated us, it forces us to migrate, it displaces us from our own land, but the unity of our struggles here and in Mexico is found in our people, in justice, and the rights for which we fight become ours only through mutual solidarity. In this struggle borders don’t exist.”
The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.
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Well, that settles it. The only logical resolution to this problem is the annexation of Mexico. They want SO badly to be part of the United States, why don’t we just make them part of OUR country. They can then live under OUR laws (including tax and wage laws), OUR values, and truly be a part of OUR country…they should welcome our troops with open arms when they march in to take over Mexico. We should be able to do it without firing a shot. We already have at least 10% of their citizens here anyway. Since we already have 25% of El Salvadorans here, perhaps they would like to be annexed too. Just a thought…
(NOTE: Sarcasm alert…maybe)
Yeah… They should really shut up with the “Indian” crap. If it taught us anything, it should be how dangerous lack of border security is…
Well, the first billboard ticked off PWC. This should tick off the entire nation. Shades of the videos seen from Mexifornia. Now they’ve made their way here. I know losing is tough to take, but I didn’t think they would resort to racism of their own. Isn’t this what they accused PWC of on the first billboard! Dumb, Dumb, and Dumber!
ICE RAID in PWC - 34 ARRESTED!
Better article than Wash Compost
http://www.examiner.com/a-1299984~ICE_arrests_34_illegals_in_Manassas.html
This is what I just posted on the “9500 Liberty” (pro-illegal) site:
Just saw the NEW “Liberty Wall”, and it’s just beautiful! Why this one should make some real friends in the local area as well as the Nation. Talk about ticking people off! They must have read that book ‘How to Lose Friends, and Tick off Enemies’. If the first “Liberty Wall” was meant to gather compassion for their cause, then this one is purely meant to start trouble. How much racist crap is one community suppose to take, much less displayed in huge letters, before they force the owner to destroy this public annoyance and eyesore! I’m a “White European” and take great offense at this crap. I’ve never harmed a sole, nor am I guilty of any of the accusations made. You always refer to us as “Demonizing” Latinos. Well, I’d have to say you just “DEMONIZED” most of the LEGAL citizens in this country!
Take your Anti-American crap back across the border while America is still considerate enough to put up with it!
good stories in the washington post today aoubt ICE raiding CMC concrete and also how illegals are running to Maryland and now they might do something.
Who can i report businesses that hire illegals? Which is the quickest way to to get ICE to do what they have did yesterday to the business in Manassas?
I have AT LEAST 10 OTHER COMPANIES THAT HIRE ILLEGALS. They are also in Manassas, Prince William County. What ICE should do is go down each business on Wellington Road and do a check. Start on route 29 and and work down Wellington until it ends Then go down route 28 beginning from Fauquier County and end in Fairfax County. Do this consistent and the illegals will leave!
I am for immigration that is done legal but not illegal.
I think this was a good move by ICE - enforce the existing laws - as the ICE officer said - “We like to turn off the magnet to illegal immigration, which is jobs.” I just wish it was done more aggresively.
Now, ICE or the Feds must prosecute the employers who knowingly paid these workers under the table and knowingly hired these illegal immigrants.
GMAN….thanks for the information on the raid in PWC! That is what we need! It is about time! We need many more of those! Let us all applaud the efforts of ICE to make it happen! We need to have Chief Deane keep on top of things.
ICE needs to check all construction sites/businesses, landscaping businesses, cable companies, restaurants, tortilla factories, etc.
I LOVE the sign! Keep up the great work, Mexicans without Borders. HSM looks forward to more people joining in the near future, as they read you sign!
Re the sign on Liberty Street: It’s free speech. It’s on private property. It only succeeds through publicity (like this web post). Ignore it and it will go away. Give it publicity and it will have served its purpose. endure, and probably be updated regularly.
I bet the MJM is just having a huge laugh now. I wonder when we can expect the MJM to opine on this and how this just shows how the illegals want to get along and just do jobs Americans refuse to do.
Also, Gary has out done himself this time. http://www.insidenova.com/isn/news/opinion/columns/article/what_would_you_do/5577/
Let’s stick to the good news of the RAID in Manassas! Remember….report to ICE any suspicious companies and people…http://www.ice.gov/
If this one raid netted 34 illegals associated with just ONE company….we need many many more raids. To those who keep saying we don’t have a problem with illegal aliens….well…what do you have to say now! Get a grip! Facts are facts!
Gary is a piece of work.
I find this billboard to be ironic since many Mexicans do not even like blacks (see the ethnic cleansing of blacks by Mexicans in LA for example)
Whatever works. Invoke “Jim Crow” and such things to take away from the debate.
Oh and btw, I am black
Let us all applaud ICE for a job well done in Manassas. Obviously one operation netted 34 illegals in just one day with only one company. We need many more raids in our county. Just for reference: http://www.ice.gov/
Use it to report businesses and people you think are involved in illegal immigration.
http://www.poststar.com/articles/2008/03/24/news/latest/doc47e7ffd99f2c7674812918.txt
“Illegal alien jailed for attempting to use fake Social Security card”
I want to start seeing this kind of activity in our county. We know illegal aliens are on the dole.
I wish ICE would bust one of those illegal alien rallies. If they want to send a message, that would surely do it.
The raids in Manassas should be front page on here. This is what we need more of…MORE ACTIVITY by THE ICE!
I agree with the person stating that all who hire ILLEGALS need investigating and there are many more company’s IN MANASSAS that need a visit from ICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Will the concrete company be fined or charged with hiring and employeeing illegals? They sure as hell should be. I hope other businesses see this and think twice about the employees that currently have and would hire in the future.
Singular Voice: Check out the Duke study on illegal Hispanic views toward black people if you have not already. It will make your gut curdle.
The Navajo Nation are a true Native American people that have lived in what is now the southwestern US for thousands of years. There is a deep dislike for Mexican people among Navajos, because for hundreds of years they fought against Mexicans who raided their land and used them for slaves.
Mexicans are a mixed race people, and should not be considered indigenous. To add to the irony, the region of Aztlan was aquired through battle and conquest of the non-Mexican indigenous peoples.
This entire movement is eerily similar to the German Nazi movment. The language used is almost identical to Nazi propaganda ( purity of blood, evils of assimilation with an inferior race, past wrongs that must be righted through conquest, etc.). At what point does freedom of speech become hate speech?
Correct me if I’m wrong. Didn’t Cortez kill the Aztecs? Maybe all the Mexicans should go back to Spain.
The fact that this sign is still up in defiance of the law shows just how out of touch with reality OUR OWN politicians are, by believing that caving in to these people is somehow going to make everything alright. What crap! Get a D9 and mow that thing down and send the owner a bill.
When do the roach coaches and ice cream carts open for business at 9500?
starryflights said on 25 Mar 2008 at 8:19 am:
Gary is a piece of work.
……and he’s brain dead from the paint fumes he inhaled when he hired day laborers to do his painting.
Old Soldier said on 25 Mar 2008 at 8:04 am:
Re the sign on Liberty Street: It’s free speech.
Why didn’t you give the full address? “Give it publicity and it will have served its purpose.” YOU JUST DID!
Angry Blackman! said on 25 Mar 2008 at 9:15 am:
The raids in Manassas should be front page on here.
Agree, but you won’t find that happening in the MJM. You might find it at the end of the week on the back page.
The sign is just racist crap now. Once again, were I to display such a monstrosity of bigotry on my lawn, the targets of the hatefulness would be within their rights to beat me senseless. I would deserve it. Those people are ugly and should go back to Mexico and whine about being treated unfairly. Nobody would listen. Best we ignore their hate and concentrate on kicking them out. We don’t want them or their hate in our community.
Anonymous said on 25 Mar 2008 at 10:10 am:
Add (humor on)
In the words of our late great president Ronald Reagan: ‘Tear down that wall, Mr. Waldron!!!’
Greg, please consider holding an HSM membership drive accross from that pathetic sign.
GREAT! This sign along with the recent illegal alien crack-down in Manassas, VA will only help our cause to wake more people up to the illegal alien problem in our community!
Anyone willing to take bets on how long before this one gets firebombed?
My guess is whomever did it made it so asinine as to get as much attention as possible then that same person or someone else affiliated will then destroy it and claim the white racists of Manassas did it.
A last ditch effort. Mark my words.
Someone should install security cameras around that sign.
This really is outrageous. Who would have thought such a display would be tolerated 20 years ago? How are these non-citizens demanding their “civil and constitutional rights”? And the mianstream press continues to press the case of these brazen outlaws? What has become of our society? America, what happened? Our citizens must come first before those of the rest of the world.
Loudoun Insider said on 25 Mar 2008 at 4:55 pm
It is all part of the NAU. It is coming and coming soon.
I concur, Medic64. Alex Jones interviews Lou Dobbs and suggests the falling dollar will be the impetus for the Amero currency to replace the dollar. We have very little industry of our own to support a financial crisis. http://operationawakening.wordpress.com/2008/03/13/alex-jones-interviews-lou-dobbs/
Mando said on 25 Mar 2008 at 3:47 pm:
My guess is whomever did it made it so asinine as to get as much attention as possible then that same person or someone else affiliated will then destroy it and claim the white racists of Manassas did it.
A last ditch effort. Mark my words.
I mark your words. Those were basically my words too a while back. Hasn’t happened - YET!
/\/\3|)iç 64:
It is all part of the NAU. It is coming and coming soon.
Not NAU! Not ever!
I find it incredulous that this property has been condemned, that the remaining wall is in violation of that condemnation, and yet, the wall still exists. What is the definition of a hate crime in this country? Is it only if I, a white person, says something derogatory to a person of another race? But they are allowed to call me any malicious, untrue, hateful, ignorant word they want to. If that does not incite hatred, I don’t know what does. I now dislike ALL hispanics - I don’t even want to wait to figure out if they are here legally or not. I am here legally - I obey the laws and pay my taxes and do what is expected of me. I don’t want a handout or special treatment or special consideration because of my “race, creed or color”. The white man is now on the other side of discrimination - if I create the National White Person College Fund or the Association for the Advancement of White People, I would be shunned. Wake up white people!
AWW,
You go girl! It’s about time we face the fact that should we become a minority it won’t be a pretty picture. You can forget any assistance or respect from the new majority!
well, if they don’t want to be our “slaves of the 21st Century” then they’d better get up and move on out!
Idiotic racist drivel…
Wine please,
Exactly. What is exactly keeping them here? They are free to leave anytime they want to.
I think the motives of 9500 are to escalate the rhetoric to the point where the City Council are forced to take action, at which time the 9500 crew will bring suit against the City for violating their first ammendment rights. They are trying to bait the community.
I think the city should seize the property under eminent domain. The lot is zoned residential, but one could argue that the sole use of the property is currently is non-residential in nature. Furthermore, the sign is clearly a public nuisance, and is depriving neighbors of the peaceful enjoyment of their homes. Years ago, the city used this power to seize and demolish several homes due to drug activity. They should do the same here.
Manassas Guy said on 26 Mar 2008 at 7:42 am:
In all honesty, I think that will happen. They are just letting enough time pass so their case is air tight and they can be sure of a win and withstand all appeals. They are coming, just give it time. The city may not be a s dumb as we think they are. If the sign causes enough trouble, then the first amendment rights will be moot.
The comments by Angry White Woman is exactly what we don’t need on here. Makes me think she’s an impostor and not really who she says she is.
I have to agree, what Angry White Woman said was offensive. I understand the anger created by the actions of illegal aliens. However, to say you hate all Hispanics is racist and wrong. No one should support that point of view; it’s anti-American and against what we stand for.
AWW said:
“I now dislike ALL hispanics - I don’t even want to wait to figure out if they are here legally or not. I am here legally - ”
This I do not agree with.
AWW said:
I find it incredulous that this property has been condemned, that the remaining wall is in violation of that condemnation, and yet, the wall still exists. What is the definition of a hate crime in this country? Is it only if I, a white person, says something derogatory to a person of another race? But they are allowed to call me any malicious, untrue, hateful, ignorant word they want to. If that does not incite hatred, I don’t know what does.
I agree with this. I speak abut this very thing with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.
Did they come back and apologize to the Duke boys?
No!
Did they use their influence to help them restore their reputation?
No!
Did they come out and say they were wrong in what they said about them?
No!
If that isn’t racists, then what is? Imus said a mean thing in a joking manner and apologized profusely for it and even lost his job, which I thought was a bit extreme considering Jackson and Sharpton are members of the cloth and they should be teaching forgiveness. They roasted him badly. What he said was wrong, IMHO. What happened next was just as wrong, especially after he apologized to the young ladies face to face. This PC crap will be the end of us all.
Angry White Woman said “I now dislike ALL hispanics - I don’t even want to wait to figure out if they are here legally or not.”
AWW how can you possibly judge a whole race or ethnic group of people based on a few?
I periodically read this blog and I am usually astounded an amazed at the hated that is spewed here. What kind of people are you? Why do you gloat about human suffering? Have you no soul or conscience? Most of you seem to be thrilled about the 34 concrete workers being rounded up. What about their children who will be left fatherless and without the basic simple needs of life? Have you not considered their suffering? This is not about being pro hispanic or pro white or pro black or even pro American. It has to do with human beings all created in the likeness and image of God. How do you conveniently forget that we all have the same Father and are commanded to “Love one Another”.
Another issue that causes me heartburn. This notion that only those of us born in the US are Americans. The reference on the Liberty St sign that makes reference to Native Americans is not an untrue statement. Most all Central and South Americans, in case you did not know, are Americans and refer to themselves as such. Canadians also refer to themselves as Americans. How arrogant of people to think the only Americans are the ones born in the US!!
The sign is offensive and has driven up membership in HSM while bring attention to the entire area. While I fully disagree with the “billboard” (of which it is not), it has been a sure sign of the what illegals think of us and what they think, we think of them. Blaming us for inaccurate and debatable historical events over the last 500 years is inane.
They need a “victim” to make their actions work. This is how liberals attempt to succeed - a necessary “victim”. Without one, they have no case. Invention and blame is the best way, they believe.
Now, we are slave owners, responsible for all that is wrong in the world, let’s see, oh yeah, “they” built America, we are the real “savages” and of course, we enslave rob, rape, kill, maim and destroyed everything in our path to have what we have today - a nice place for illegals to come and live in a better place than they left because if central america is SO great, then why in the hell did they leave?
Thank you to MWB for driving the wedge deeper. You only bury yourselves in the end. You demand some “equality” when you don’t deserve it, never earning it. You left countries with nearly no law, corrupt officials, death squads, drug lords and governments who oppress. You bring us MS13 and other gangs, you kill our citizens and your own illegals, you drive drunk and nearly kill police officers and kill many others, you work for low wages (many brought on by your own “brothers”) which lowers our economy, hurts other employers and workers who play by the rules, you demand that we turn over our land to you, the “heir apparent” to a land “we stole and enslaved”, you hang around businesses all the while getting drunk, urinating and cat calling the girls looking for cheap labor which is paid “under the table” and CHEATS all of us and yourselves.
Do you, MWB, think we are stupid? Do you think we care about your sniveling inane “billboard”? You are NOT this country and you certainly do NOT represent yourselves as deserving “citizens”.
THAT is what your sign says and represents. If you get a reaction of anger, what did you expect? Sympathy, for the words and accusations you have on that “sign”?
Illegals - GO HOME! Illegals - GO HOME! Illegals - GO HOME NOW!
We welcome those immigrants that went through the process, got their visas, in hope of the opportunities that this great country offers. All others, the welcome mat is GONE.
Political Correctness = Passive Aggressive
Red, White and Blue said on 26 Mar 2008 at 11:41 am:
Well written and explained.
FHL,
What about my kids whose education has been affected by the kids of illegal aliens? What about my nephew whose at Weems, is very bright but is in a class of 25 (back when school started in Sept. 07) with only 5 Americans and the rest are kids of illegals which have in turn have caused the curriculum to be dumbed down?
What about my parents who lived in the City of Manassas since the 70’s and now are in the age of retirement but have watched their community go down the drain because of illegals? What about my son who had an emergency so I take him to Prince William Hospital and had to wait hours and mind you, I pay for and have insurance but yet had to wait while their colds get checked out?
Hell Yeah…I’m Glad to see ICE get involved and hope they do more!
P.S.
If they are so worried about their families,
then why not pack up and leave which is the right thing
to do? Leave and and comeback legally.
@FHL
You’re shocked by AWW judging an entire race of people on the actions of a few which is fine. Then you go on to judge the rest of us on the statements of AWW. Hypocritcal ya think???
I’m thrilled that ICE has finally come to town to enforce the Federal Immigration laws. How exactly are children being left fatherless? Are the fathers choosing not to take their children back with them when they are deported for coming here illegally? Is that my fault? Why should I feel guilty for someone elses poor decisions? I feel bad for the innocents affected by their parents poor decsions but the responsibility lies SOLEY on the shoulders of those that made those decisions.
Mando said on 26 Mar 2008 at 2:32 pm:
It all cones down to consequences. There are consequences for your actions and you better be prepared to face them when the time comes.
These could be good, such as a raise in pay or bad, such as deportation. Which ever the case, there are consequences for your actions.
I apologize for offending anyone. I have step-children who are half Peruvian and whose mother did not come here legally. She married their father, and became legal. For 30 years, she has used and abused the welfare system, the school system, the hospital system, the Court system, and raised her children to do the same. That is what we face in the future. Children of illegals having children and teaching them the “easy way out”. Don’t follow rules. Don’t obey laws. They don’t apply to you - only to the gringos and other fools who tow the line. I agree with Angry Black Man - I too have had to go to the Emergency Room and wait behind earaches and splinters. My daughter also attended school with illegals and became so bored and unmotivated she left and got her GED. The illegals take Spanish class to get an easy “A”. These people do not want to indoctrinate into society - they want special privileges, rights, laws, benefits. And they want us to pay for them! That is not the way of the citizens of the United States, and I, for one, am tired of condoning it.
I am too AWW. Take away the incentives and they will leave.
We must learn to live in peace and harmony. However we cannot re-write history. Many of the people commenting on the sign want to ignore history and re-write a false history and call the truth racism and hate. If some one rapes and beats your mother, steals your car, murders your child and when you state the facts to the police be begins to claim that you are speak hate and abusing him, this is called insanity. All the sign does is state historic facts in plain simple terms. You must face what was done and work for justice based upon this. These are some of the facts:
1) Borders and foreign laws have been used for 500 years to steal and control Native American land and wealth.
2) In 1714 our border was the James River. Our people Native Americans, native to what you call Virginia, and have been here for over 10,000 years. In 1714 Euro-Americans declared that we were illegal aliens in our own homeland if we went north of the James River.
3) In 1830 the border was the Mississippi River. Any Indian east of the Mississippi River was an illegal alien.
4) By the 1860’s the borders was reservations. Any Native American off the reservation was an illegal alien.
5) Convenient laws such as the Indian Removal act of 1830 resulted in the deportation of thousands of Native Americans and thousands of deaths with the Trail of Tears.
6) The border was then moved to the Rio Grande River. Laws foreign to Native America and artificial borders have been used for 500 years to control Native Americans and our land and wealth.
7) Convenient laws such as the one drop rule allowed the theft of Indian land in VA because if there are no more Indians the land is free for the taking.
9) Euro-Americans killed millions of Native Americans in worst fashion than Hitler (see La Casas writings from the 1500’s). Hitler studied the tactics used against Native Americans to formulate his murderous plans.
10) Euro-American colonialism has waged and un-relentless war against Brown indigenous people for 500 years. Most recently one million dead people from Iraq approved by your vote for George Bush, thousands dead in Central American and still being kills from the actions of Ollie North and Ronald Regan which has created war and turmoil for over twenty years, millions dead in Africa, over a million dead brown people in Vietnam and Cambodia and the list is one mile long. Brown indigenous people are being killed everyday with your tax dollars and your approval by your votes, support and talk.
11) Millions of Native American were enslaved.
12) Thousands of people of color were lynched such as my great uncle in 1914 in Va.
13) You are today deporting Native Americans from their own historic homelands in America with new Jim Crow laws and the Indian Removal Acts of 2008.
14) There were no borders, no wars, no poverty, no rape, no murder, not theft before the Europeans came. Read La Casas. Europe had just gone through 1,000 years of dark ages and knew nothing but rape, murder, theft, genocide. Before the Europeans there was liberty, freedom and abundance for all.
15) The United States is built on stolen land with stolen people’s lives and wealth.
16) In what we call VA we went from 2 million Native Americans in 1492 to less than 600 by the time were placed on the Fort Christanna reservation in Brunswick Co VA. Two million of our people were exterminated as documented by the European La Casas.
Everything you own was built upon this stolen wealth and dead bodies. As the receivers of this this stolen property how do you deal with the people it was stolen from. Do you falsely label them as illegal aliens and deport them again? Do you face the truth and seek to live in harmony?
These are the facts. They are not racist facts!!! We know that the truth is hard to hear but you must face it. We desiring living here in peace. When people who reside on land stolen from others via rape, murder and theft, handed down from illegal immigrants, began calling indigenous people illegal aliens, they must be careful because all one has to do is hold up a mirror. It is time to live in peace but as long as you call our indigenous people illegal aliens and illegal immigrants and continue 500 years of genocide with deportations of indigenous people, we must remind you of the REAL history and how your behavior fits into your long history of racism, theft, and control.
I have many more facts you share with you all.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!!
To Indigenous Native American:
I am horrified at what has been done to the Native Americans - it was an atrocity, that is for sure, and I am sympathetic to all you say. I was equally horrified at the treatment of the jews by the Nazis and the slaves taken from their native lands. I do not classify the Native American as an “illegal alien”.
IndigenousNativeAmerican said on 26 Mar 2008 at 4:49 pm:
GEESH!!!
I am not even going to comment on so much BS.
Dear Angry White Woman:
Thank you for the kind comments. Before contact there were no borders. Everyone living on Turtle Island (north and south America) was Native American. By foreigners coming to TI and declaring a border does not make the indigenous people north of the border Native American and the people to the south of it Non-Native American. We are all NA. The indigenous people of TI never agreed to these borders on their land. They were forced on us, thus they are not binding on us. This is all the sign is trying to wake people up to. I realize that most white people have never thought of the issue from this perspective but please please do because we need to see what we are doing to Native Americans and come to peace with our treatment of Native Americans.
We all, including most white people, have had the wool pulled over our eyes and now most people do not see Hispanics and Latinos as NA. However, there is no such race as Hispanic or Latino. They are races created by Euro-Americans long ago to hide the fact that they are Indian. The changing of our race to a newly created race is nothing new. It happened right here in VA specifically in order to maintain control of Indian land.
Some people say that the people in question are mixed and therefore cannot claim to be Native American. The state of Va recognizes eight tribes. All of these tribes are of mixed people. There are many more not recognized by VA. The same is true of NC and SC with the exception of the Cherokee. I know Lakota from the Pine Ridge reservation who are 89% Indian. Being mixed is not criteria for dis-avowing ones Native American race. If this is true why do white people refer to a person with one drop of black blood as Black.
Look closely at the people that you have been seeing as immigrants. If you look close you will see that they are Indian–Native American. Some don’t even speak Spanish or English. They still speak their Indigenous Native American language. When you visit a Mexican restaurant you are not eating Mexican food. This is Native American food the same as our Siouan people ate here in VA in 1491.
Many things were done to hide the genocide of the past from ALL of us: white, black and Indian and if we don’t wake up from this intentional deception, we will find ourselves participating in the continuation of a 500 year old genocide. The return of our bothers from the south is part of prophecies that were told long before contact. They bring with them much wisdom regarding our future.
Just because someone has the mindset to steal something and the cleverness to get away with it does it make the stole property theirs and they have the right to treat the original owners as outsiders–aliens, immigrants. What we have created with the Mexican Border is an apartheid system with the Indians on a large reservation called Mexico.
Mr. Geesh:
Please comment so that I can provide sources for all that I say. We cannot bury our heads in the sand. The truth will set you free. The people we are deporting are Native Americans who were living in what we call Turtle Island 50,000 years before Columbus was born. How can they possibly be illegal immigrants. We do not want to incite any hatred in white people or anyone else. We just want to awaken people to what they are doing each day and how it fits into the patterns of history genocide against Native Americans.
We can all live here in harmony if we stop throwing stones regarding who the illegal immigrants and stop trying to deportation indigenous peopl and begin a dialogue regarding how we live in peace and harmony. All we have to do is take care of Mother Earth and one another and live the Indigenous Way and all are welcome. However, the prophecies have foretold what will happen to those who do not do this.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!!
Indigenous Native American, it’s amazing what people will come up with to justify breaking the law.
Actually Dignidad, I don’t believe that this guy is actually an American Indian. Their concerns are far more rational and localized. I believe that we are being scammed by John Steinbach (sounds like his writing) under a pseudonym that he should be ashamed to use, making our true Native Americans sound like some extreme radical socialists. This person (if you thoroughly read the last comment) also obviously had something to do with the latest rendition of that “sign” in Old Town. I swear I believe these people are trying very hard to start a race war of some kind.
I wonder if your average illegal aliens realize how they are being used by these Anarchists and Socialists who are trying to further their own agenda, attempting to create violent discord and a breakdown of civil authority. I wonder if these illegal aliens realize that Anarchists and extreme Socialists are famous for using peons as cannon fodder while they sit back and place themselves in positions of power so that they can properly enslave these expendable peons to their on ends. So, John, what do you have to say for yourself?
Check his IP Greg…bet it’ll put him in the Yorkshire area of Manassas.
Correction: “own” ends…sorry.
Dignidad:
Lets talk details. What of what I have said is incorrect? Nobody has come up with anything. These are HARD, COLD facts. As Martin Luther King stated, immoral laws are not laws at all. Nothing is being broken. He stated that we have an obligation to break immoral laws so that they can be righted. What if Rosa Parks had given up her seat on the white man on the bus. She intentionally broke an immoral law so that the world would see what kinds of laws people were passing. As most white people and the world come to understand that you are deporting and persecuting Native Americans, these laws will fall just as the racist laws in VA fell 50 years ago.
Again how can you take someone’s property, draw a line on it, then pass laws on their property stating they cannot cross the line. And when they cross the line, on their own land, you call them criminals. I understand this because white people did this to us here in VA and we have been here for tens of thousands of years.
““There shall be set out and assigned for the Settlement of the said nation of Indians who shall hereafter be deemed as incorporated into one Nation a Tract of Land upon the south side of James River above the inhabitants equal to six miles square whereon they may build a Fort and make improvements for the convenience and Subsistence of their families, And moreover all the unpatented lands between James River and Roanoke shall be assigned for the hunting grounds of the said Nation. . . none of the said Indians shall depart off the grounds allotted for their habitation nor repair to the Towns of the other Tributary Indians expert [sic] in company with some of the English residing at the said Fort neither shall any of the said Indians depart off their hunting grounds or come among the Inhabitants without the License of the Governor or the Captain of the Fort or in company of some Englishman belonging to the said Fort on pain of being punished at the Governor’s discretion…”
Please give me some details people so we can get this dialogue going. Isn’t this GREAT!!!!
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on John…you can stop scamming now and pretending to be something you are not. Man up and put your name on it. We have a mutual friend who knew you “when,” so you’re not fooling anybody.
AW:
I don’t know who John is and I am not Mexica or with the Mexica-Movement. We are native to the land that you call VA and have been here for tens of thousands of years. If after all your people have done we are still able to say you are welcome here as long as you live the Indigenous Way, why can’t you be welcoming? Did the dark ages in Europe leave such a deep, mean, nasty scar that all love and feeling is gone. Is nothing left but bitterness and hate? We must learn to co-exist in peace and stop throwing stones. And calling indigenous people “illegal aliens” is a hell of a stone when you are the real illegal aliens. We must heal from the hurts of those dark ages and heal from the holocaust inflicted on Native Americans across Turtle Island and re-learn caring.
The holocaust done to our people was cultural, physical, emotional, mental, identity and spiritual. Most of our people were shamed and forced into forgetting who they were. You’d better claim to be Black or Hispanic or something other than Indian or you’d find yourself a dead illegal alien. This is true in VA, NC, the South East, Mexico, South American, Puerto Rico. A token number of Native Americans were left with their identity, but small enough numbers that they posed no threat to manifest destiny. Now after the freedoms delivered after the civil rights movement people are waking up. And there are dozens of tribes and thousands of Natives waking up and coming together and it is unstoppable.
http://indigenousbordersummitamericas2007.blogspot.com/
Nobody is talking about giving anything back, we are talking peaceful co-existence. White people must understand that you are and have been a small minority on Turtle Island since 1492. You have been living an illusion thinking you were the majority here. Like South Africa and India the small white minority has tried to control the native population on Turtle Island, while sucking the wealth of the Natives land and controlling the natives on segregated portions of their own land with borders and passing racist laws to enforce these borders.
As the walls fall in the last strong hold of colonialism, now on Turtle Island, just as they fell in South Africa and India, white people just as in these countries will find that they really are a small minority in someone else’s home. There is nothing wrong with this but it will cause one to pull back on the arrogance and become more humble and stop the propaganda about who are the illegal immigrants and the call for deportations. You may find that your own words come back to haunt you in a few years. So again the point is tolerance, peace and to stop throwing stones.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!!
IndigenousNativeAmerican, with all due respect I live in the present and choose to stay here and deal with reality.
If you keep posting to it, it will not go away. If you ignore it, the 15 minutes will evaporate.
Yes, and so do we live in the present. And in the present we have Turtle Island being populated with Native Americans. This is the reality. Why are you trying to change this and go back to the 1940’s. We cannot turn back the hands of time. Segregation had its time and it has come and gone. The reality in the present is that we are here!!!
In addition the reality is that this a Native American continent and always has been. The only way to live here is with Native Americans. If people are uncomfortable living as a minority in someone else’s home then the only option is to go back to your own home. Europe is majority white and if this is where one feels comfortable, in the majority, then one must go there. I am not asking anyone to leave. All I am saying is if one desires segregation this is the answer.
The reality is we are the majority here. The reality is that the extermination, relocation, deportation, reclassification, socialization efforts did not work. This is THE reality. When I drive through Manassas it looks like Pembroke NC, 90% Indian. This is the reality. Why are you trying to live in the past in 1940 when it was 90% white and segregated?
Yes, we are in agreement we have to live in the present and deal with reality and stop dreaming about days gone by.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!!
I’m a direct decendent of people from the lost continent of Atlantis off the coast of “Turtle Island”. We were the original inhabitants of the land mass “IndigenousNativeAmerican” refers to as Turtle Island but were forced to flee our lands by the invading hoardes crossing the frozen land bridge between Turtle Island and the Great Pine Land Mass (now Eastern Russia). My people arrived here 20,000 years ago on our mothership, long before the so called “native American” people. We were a peaceful and advanced society wanting only to coexist in harmony with the invading people from the Great Pine Land Mass but those people would have none of it. What few survivors we had fled Turtle Island to the remote island of Atlantis. In dismay, we watched as the savages fought and killed one another over our land. Out of shear sadness we sank our island and left them to their wars and pillaging.
Since this was all pre-history, we sometimes come back and create what you call “crop circles” as a historical record to remind all the Turtle Islanders of their savagery in chasing us from our land.
Over time, we allowed some of our people to breed with the white race in western Europe. We did this so we could re-take our land from the savage Turtle Islanders. Our first succesful Atlantisian-European descendent in exacting our ultimate revenge was none other then Christopher Columbus. 100’s of years later we have finally retaken our land from the Turtle Islanders and stopped the savagery. Now it is they that want peaceful coexistance??? Don’t let the savage Turtle Islanders fool you!!!
Atlantisian American:
Why are you clowning and joking when people’s lives are at stake. Millions of our people have been exterminated and this is documented even in your history books. This is no joke. If it were your mother who had been raped, and your daughter who had both arms cut off and you son who had been castrated and you had been tuned into a slave and beaten with a whip I don’t think you would joking around. Lets get serious and have a real dialogue. There is nothing to be afraid of. The truth will set you free!!!! Please read the history on Christopher Columbus. His actions of extermination are on a par with Hitler and yet you celebrate him as a hero. The history is there for all to read. How can you make fun of this horrible activity.
And how can you still call Native Americans savages. Do all white people in Prince William agree that Native Americans are savages? Is this what we movement in Prince William is all about?
Do you laugh and joke when watching the documentaries of the liberation of the concentration cames in Germany with hundreds of starved bodies being piled into open graves. Do you sit around and write fables about how the Nazis were the real victims of the nasty Jews and the murder of six million Jews were just revenge. What kind of people are you. Are you representative of all of the white people in Prince William. Do you also laugh and joke regarding black slavery and oppression? Singular Voice (btw I’m Black) and other white people in Prince William do you agree that murder, rape, theft, genocide and slavery is a big joke. Did you laugh and joke when you watched Roots. Was slavery against Black people also revenge against them and a funny joke.
Singular Voice (btw I’m Black). Are you aware that the ethnic cleansing that you speak of in LA has its roots in Washington DC with Ronald Regan and Ollie North. Do the research. There are people who have destabilized societies and created wars. The gangs in LA of indigenous people are a result of the wars of the 1980’s in Central America where our votes and tax dollars created warriors and now these warriors have come to the US. Didn’t Malcolm X say something about chickens coming home to roust. The creation of these gangs by the central American wars was recently shown on a documentary on the history channel. The problems of gangs of brown people whether Native or African American are the results of hundreds of years of slavery, manipulation and oppression. Rousting Chickens!!!!
We must have a serious dialogue regarding peace and harmony and end the jokes regarding murdered, enslaved and colonized brown people world wide. (and black people are actually brown).
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!!
I may be confused, joining this debate at this time, but aren’t we getting off track. Isn’t this about illegal aliens coming into this country, not native americans who were born here?
USA4VR:
Please read the thread. The people that you refer to as illegal aliens are in fact Native Americans. It is all explained above. The mis-labeling of Native American’s as something else, in order to control of the land, has a 500 year history. Please read from the top!!
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!!
USA4VR said on 27 Mar 2008 at 4:40 pm:
You are right, it is. Never mind the rhetoric used to direct you into another direction, typical liberal musings to confuse the issue.
IndigenousNativeAmerican said on 27 Mar 2008 at 5:43 pm:
USA4VR:
Please read the thread. The people that you refer to as illegal aliens are in fact Native Americans. It is all explained above. The mis-labeling of Native American’s as something else, in order to control of the land, has a 500 year history. Please read from the top!!
===============================================
Dude, sounds like you’re speaking of anarchy! Mexicans are not indigenous. They are a mixed race of people. No one here is calling an American Indian ‘illegal!’ I think you’re a liar when you say you are not part of the Mexica Movement or any other of those racist groups!!!
Atlantisian American, thanks for the comic relief!
IndigenousNativeAmerican, you really are not going to convince anyone here, it might be better for your peace of mind to give up.
We kicked their butts out of the border states a long time ago because we had the bigger stick. We still have the bigger stick, we just are not using it as we should. It’s our land, not theirs. They can try and take it back but they will awaken something that will scare the dirt out of them if they do. They “migrated” south when we kicked their butts, so they can thank their ancestors for that. They should go to France…
The legal definition for “illegal immigrant” is:
illegal immigrant
n. an alien (non-citizen) who has entered the United States without government permission or stayed beyond the termination date of a visa.
See also: alien
What part of that applies to the Native American? None.
The law is clear, the motives are clear - pleading ignorance of the law does not excuse anyone, of any nationality, from breaking the law.
Further, the definitions of Hispanic, Hispanization, Assimilation are as follows:
Definitions in the USA:
Further information: Racial demographics of the United States and Race and ethnicity in the United States Census and History of Latinos and Hispanics in the United States
During the 1970s, the United States Government defined the term “Hispanic” to identify Latin American individuals, and their descendants, living in the U.S., regardless of race.[6]
The ethnic label Hispanic was the result of efforts by a New Mexican U.S. Senator, Joseph Montoya, who wanted a label that could be used to quantify the Spanish-speaking population for the US Census. The label Hispanic was chosen in part because in New Mexico, people of Spanish descent such as Montoya referred to themselves as hispanos which was anglicized as “Hispanic”.
The U.S. Office of Management and Budget currently defines “Hispanic or Latino” as “a person of Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin, regardless of race”.[7]
The terms Hispanic and Latino tend to be used interchangeably in the United States, due largely to a syntax inconsistency between the English language and the Spanish language.[citation needed] Some define the term “Latino” as a shortened version of the noun ‘”Latin American”. Others define the word “Latin” as the name of the language used by the ancient Romans, while “Latino” is the name given to the people who spoke the language.
Hispanization
Hispanization is the process by which a place or a person absorbs characteristics of Hispanic society and culture… Hispanization of a person is illustrated by, but not limited to, speaking Spanish, making and eating Latin food, listening to Spanish language music, dressing in Santa Fe style or other Hispanic styles, and participating in Hispanic festivals and holidays.
Assimilation
Hispanization is the opposite of assimilation. Assimilation is the process by which a minority culture absorbs characteristics of the dominant society and culture. In the United States Anglo culture has long been the dominant culture and, historically, U.S. immigrants have assimilated by the third generation. For example, by the third generation most Ukrainian-Americans have lost the ability to speak Ukrainian, make Ukrainian easter eggs, cook Ukrainian food, play Ukrainian music, or dance like a Cossack. A few immigrant groups to the U.S. have been slow to assimilate–Greeks, Chinese, and especially Hispanics.
Language retention is a common index to assimilation, and according to the 2000 census, about 75 percent of all Hispanics spoke Spanish in the home — even many Hispanics who can trace their ancestry to the original settlement of the U.S. Southwest between 1598 and 1769…
TDB:
TDB: “sounds like you’re speaking of anarchy!”
INA: What have you been smoking. Anarchy!! How is showing what has happened to Native Americans anarchy? How is stating that we have a right to be in our home lands for 50,000 years racist?
TDB: “Mexicans are not indigenous. They are a mixed race of people.”
INA: Black American’s are a mixed race. Does this mean they are not black? White’s are mixed. Does this mean they are not white? How is it that one drop of black blood makes one black but 90% Indian blood does not make you Indian. Sounds like racist rules meant to benefit a select group of people. Most South eastern Recognized Indians are mixed. Have you been to any VA, NC, SC pow wow’s?
TDB: “No one here is calling an American Indian ‘illegal!’”
INA: Yes you absolutely are. Some of the people being deported speak neither Spanish nor English but their indigenous native American language. I could take some people you call illegal and take some people that are recognized as Indians in the US and I asked you to pick the Native Americans. I guarantee you that you would pick many people you call illegal as Native American and some people recognized as Indian you would say were white or black.
TDB: I think you’re a liar when you say you are not part of the Mexica Movement or any other of those racist groups!!!
INA: Why such harsh accusations. Why are you calling me a lair and racist. What have I said that was racist? Show me one lie that I have told. I am talking inclusion and not segregation. Peace and harmony and not against anyone. Please be specific and give details to support your general accusations.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!!
Dave said, “We kicked their butts out of the border states a long time ago because we had the bigger stick. We still have the bigger stick . . . They “migrated” south when we kicked their butts, so they can thank their ancestors for that.”
Dave:
So you are bragging because you murdered and exterminated millions of innocent, non-violent Native Americans as documented in your books. Are you saying the only thing that matters is who has the power to rape, steal, rob and murder. I thought earlier you had problems with the people at issue because they had broken the law and were criminals. I thought you had issue with violent gangs and drugs. But now you openly advocate violence and theft? Wow!! Do your children and neighbors know your values regarding theft and violence.
Are these the values of the white people in Prince William county and Virginia. Perhaps you are correct. I don’t think so. I think most white people are honest hardworking people who do not believe in theft and murder. Please speak up white people. Who is correct Dave or myself? Is Dave speaking for you.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!!
“The legal definition for “illegal immigrant” is: illegal immigrant
n. an alien (non-citizen) who has entered the United States without government permission or stayed beyond the termination date of a visa. See also: alien What part of that applies to the Native American? None. The law is clear, the motives are clear - pleading ignorance of the law does not excuse anyone, of any nationality, from breaking the law.”
In 1714 it was illegal for me to be north of the James River because white people came into my land, disobeyed our laws, wrote their own laws which have no moral validity here, stole our land, created a border on our land and made me an illegal alien when I crossed a border on my land.
“There shall be set out and assigned for the Settlement of the said nation of Indians who shall hereafter be deemed as incorporated into one Nation a Tract of Land upon the south side of James River above the inhabitants equal to six miles square whereon they may build a Fort and make improvements for the convenience and Subsistence of their families, And moreover all the unpatented lands between James River and Roanoke shall be assigned for the hunting grounds of the said Nation. . . none of the said Indians shall depart off the grounds allotted for their habitation nor repair to the Towns of the other Tributary Indians expert [sic] in company with some of the English residing at the said Fort neither shall any of the said Indians depart off their hunting grounds or come among the Inhabitants without the License of the Governor or the Captain of the Fort or in company of some Englishman belonging to the said Fort on pain of being punished at the Governor’s discretion…”
The people north and south of your border are the same people. How can the ones north of the border be Native American and the ones south of it be something else.
When laws and borders are put in place with violence and oppression, with the specific intent of stealing someone else’s property, is this really a law? Or is it a criminal offense. What if some one came into your house right now with a gun, sat down at your dinner table and wrote a bunch of rules and proclaimed these as the law at the point of a gun. Are you morally obligated the follow these laws?
Was the law that turned people into slaves really a law? Was the law that put a bounty on Indian scalps of $50 really a law? Was the law that said all Jews must be exterminated really a law? Were these real laws or crimes. Of course they are crimes and if you are an accomplice to a crime then this makes you a criminal as well.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!!
IndigenousNativeAmerican, you can fantasize and justify all you want. You can talk about history and pre-history, but that doesn’t change the reality of the here and now. There are boundaries and laws with the resulting real life consequences. I can’t imagine an immigration judge being anything but amused or irritated at the Turtle Island, non-Hispanic jibberish before he deports the illegal alien back to his true native country.
As far as the tragedies that the Native Americans suffered, I think it’s important that we don’t sweep it under the rug but there is nothing that can be done about it now. We are supposed to learn from history and not repeat it. We are not supposed to cry about it for 500 years and live as resentful victims looking only for new reasons to be offended.
Would a judge in 1850 in Prince William county be amused by a slave who proclaimed that he was a free man and slavery is unjust. Yes, likely so. And by challenging slavery and not accepting unjust laws slavery fell. Would a judge in Mississippi in 1963 be amused by Rosa Parks answer that she does not have to follow an unjust immoral law and give her seat to a white man. Yes, likely. So what, he is not god and he did not have the final say on the issue. Should a slave running away from his plantation in 1830 say, no I am just going to stay and be a slave because its the law and there are real life consequences for seeking liberty and justice. Are you saying one should not fight for freedom and justice. I thought this was an American top value. If someone broke into your house right now and held you prisoner and raped your wife each day for months, do you try and end this injustice or say well he has a gun and there are consequences if I try and end this injustice.
So if I had taken your advice I and my family would still be slaves, perhaps on your plantation. So since there are unjust laws and people who continue abusing others are you suggesting that we accept just accept the abuse. I suggest that you read Martin Luther Kings letter from Birmingham Jail. The white people that he was writing to were using your exact same words.
You say we should adjust to current reality. The current reality is:
-We have 70,000 native Americans in Prince William county and 50,000,000 in the US and several over 500 million on Turtle Island.
-The laws and borders for Native Americans are immoral laws and borders.
-ALL immoral laws and borders eventually fall.
- White people are a minority on Turtle Island and need to adjust to this reality and learn to love Brown Turtle Island or leave it.
As far as crying about the history and being resentful where do you see any of this. What I am saying is that the deportations, new laws and actions being taken today are part of a 500 year genocidal process against Native Americans. It is happening NOW, not in the past and needs to end now in the present.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!!
Comparing slavery to illegal immigration? As I understand it slave traders forcibly captured people and shipped them over here in unspeakable conditions that killed many. People were separated forever from their families and treated as possessions for generation after generation. While some were treated almost humanely, others were beaten. It was against the law to teach them to read and write (perhaps because education is a key to true freedom). Nobody became a slave of their own free will.
Illegal aliens consciously make the decision to take the risk to come here. Nobody goes to their country of origin and forcibly removes them from their family. Whatever ghastly conditions they suffer in their arrogant quest to come to America illegally is the result of their free will decision to trek through the desert, step into a boat that may not make it, hide in the back of a truck or hop a train that is in motion. Once they make it here, education for their children is not only legal, it is required and free!
I personally think that coming illegally is such a shameful experience that in order to deal with the shame they turn it around and place the blame on America. Keep talking the way you are talking IndigenousNativeAmerican and you will take those you wish to advocate for in the wrong direction. Help them to assimilate. Help them to be educated. Do not poison them with misinformation that will only worsen their chances.
Angry white woman said: The ethnic label Hispanic was the result of efforts by a New Mexican U.S. Senator, Joseph Montoya, who wanted a label that could be used to quantify the Spanish-speaking population for the US Census. The label Hispanic was chosen in part because in New Mexico, people of Spanish descent such as Montoya referred to themselves as hispanos which was anglicized as “Hispanic”.
INA Response: There are many black leaders today who desire keeping people who have one drop of black blood and 99% Indian blood, classified as black because it is in that politicians best interest. VA has hundred of thousands of these Natives. As we all know our leaders today do not necessarily do what is in our best interest nor what we desire. George Bush has us in a war that 70% of Americans disagree with. Most politicians do what is in their self-interest. So was Montoya doing what was in his political best interest? Yes, this way ALL of these native Americans are voting for him. Isn’t this simple logic. Why don’t you see it. Part of the genocide of our people is an identity genocide and paper genocide. This is well documented through out the Americas. Right here in VA there was state registrar Walter Pleckler who systemically changed birth certificates of people from Indian to Negro. His goal was to erase all Indians from the state of VA. HE FAILED!!!! Just look around you.
Last year one courthouse in VA changed the name of the book in a county court house, which has the names of Indian people from the 1800’s, from the book of “Free Persons of color” to “Free Negro Register”. So these Indians over night became black on paper. And the history of thousands of Native Americans was erased. WOW!!! When will the genocide stop!!!
There is nothing wrong with being Black but the point is white society, in conjunction with a few token “uncle Toms” has a 500 years history of changing Native American’s race to something else so that the land is free and clear for white people. How does one just create a race out of thin air in the 1970’s and for what reason. Using this logic the Indians north of the border should be HiEngish–since we speak English and are mixed with English. This was your founding fathers plan to breed us out of existence–but with the mixing of the races now and the birth rates of people of color I think this plan may backfire. And we may all soon be people of color. Just look around you in Prince William CO.
Look at the one-drop rule for example. If you have one drop of black blood you are black but 90% Indian blood makes one Hispanic — Whattttttt???? How does that work. Bottom line is that it does not matter what fake classifications the US Government has labeled Native Americans. We know that they are not looking out for our self interest. Genetically we are the people who were here before you came and therefore CANNOT be segregated in our own land. And we can prove it with DNA testing. I have a bet for you guys. Lets do a test to see who the real immigrants are and who isfrom this land? Lets take 500 white people and 500 brown people. Lets DNA test these 1000 people. If the DNA tests show that the white people are from here and the brown people are immigrants all of the brown people will leave immediately. If the DNA test shows that the brown people are indigenous and the white people are immigrants all of the white people leave. I will tell you one thing, it will not show that our people are Hispanic or Latino. Lets do it!!!!!!!
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!!
Dignidad: Comparing slavery to illegal immigration?
Most of the slaves of the Americas were Native American. The problems of what you call immigration stem directly from our people being forced into slavery and the genocide and destabilization of our social systems. Your people installed new rules and a new system that will NEVER work for our people. It is a horribly oppressive, mean, competitive, win/lose system, cold, non-caring, non-loving, anti-family system. The system produces pollution that is killing our planet, 50,000 deaths each day from starvation, millions of death each year from war. Everything is connected. Our actions have consequences. Analysis leaves us blind to the connections.
Dignidad: Nobody goes to their country of origin and forcibly removes them from their family.
INA: Today I watch the criminal Ollie North with his TV show making big bucks. Regan/North are remembered in good light but the fact is they funneled millions of dollars into central American, killed thousands of people with their actions, and created a war environment that is still forcing people out of their artificially created countries today. The violence, still their today from the Regan/North era, is FORCING people out of their homes at gun point!!!!! I can give many more examples such as how NATFA has forced people out of work because small mom and pops cannot compete with the mass production system as we see with Wal-Mart here in the US. So NAFTA created more new jobs in the US by taking this work from mom and popshops in Mexico. The problem with your thinking is that it is simple. Analysis is the primary thought form brought here from Europe. It is slow and does not see the connections between things which makes it dumb and blind. The form of thinking known as synthesis focuses on the connections between things. Thus things that are directly before you about to bite you like a snake you are blind to. Read the Fifth Discipline by Peter Senge and perhaps you’ll understand.
Dignidad: Help them to assimilate. Help them to be educated. Do not poison them with misinformation that will only worsen their chances.
INA: Friend, you could not be more wrong. Perhaps you should read what your buddy Newt Gingrich has written in the book Creating a New Civilization. The world, propelled by information technology, is currently in the process of creating a new civilization as we transition from the Industrial Age to the Information Age. Everything you know about living in this world is about to change including ALL of our social institutions. Have you read the leading business consultants in the world: Alvin Toffler, Tom Peters, Peter Drucker, Stephen Covey and dozens more. The Industrial Age is dying. The power brought to the individual by information technology is unstoppable. We are witnessing the end of authoritarian power in the world. The last thing a person should be doing today is learning the ways of the dying system. You had better be getting educated on the workings of the new social institutions. You’d better be learning how to get along with people without authority—which requires humility, collaboration, creativity, dialogue, listening, love and caring. Believe it or not at this point in time the indigenous people in question are better suited to survive in the next century than you are. I realize that this likely raises more issues than analysis allows you to process but please begin reading and learning. The books are all out there.
Even if you cannot understand all of that, Peak Oil alone, will change your civilization forever. In the coming years you wish for the days when immigration was your biggest concern. Your time is over and your system is dying!!!! Evolve with us and embrace the reality that is here today and lets live in peace and harmony and forget the segregation of the 1940’s. It is over, it is gone, it is DEAD!!!!!! Live in the present.
I told you guys I was not with the Mexica Movement. Have you ever heard them talk of Toffler, Gingrich, a new civilization, the Information Age. You cannot cubbywhole me so don’t try. We are VA Indians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Try instead to get educated yourselves and get into the information age so that we can live together in peace and harmony, bother!!!.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!!
Why do all of you keep responding? The more you respond, the more the rant will go on. Just ignore and his 15 minutes of fame will go by the way side.
Medic you’re right.
One thing about our U.S. dominate culture, there is always logical and rational explanations for everything. This is the strength for this culture. It is an extroverted culture that ALWAYS has twenty detailed explanations for everything. In other words white people always have something to say and have the answer to everything. I have dish network satellite TV with hundreds of Channel. I can randomly select 50 channels and on 98% of these there will be a white person explaining the details of how things work. There are alway analytical reasons for everything. There is no doubt the white people are the leaders of our current world because you are the true masters of the thought form known as analysis. This is what our science is based upon, our schools, our universities, our businesses, our technology. Because of this white people are alway talking. They literally never shut up.
Why then have you stopped talking here?
Why do you desire discontinuing the debate?
Why are you not able to articulate your position in a logical fashion that makes sense to the unbiased observer?
I will tell you the likely reason. You have no VALID, logical, reasonable reasons for your actions and beliefs. Your position makes no logical sense. Your case is weak and flawed. Your actions are based upon your own selfishness, self-interest, greed and racial bias and have nothing to do with what is right, moral and ethical. You have been defeated on your our home court, using your own thought form of analysis and the defeat is so bad that you realize that the more you say the deeper in the S— you get.
People here sure had plenty to say before we challenged each one the faulty assumptions which they were basing their actions and comments.
If you have a logical, reasonable, legal case from a ethical and moral stand point, I challenge you to continue the dialogue. If you agree that you position comes from selfishness, self-interest, greed and racial bias then you should stop the dialogue, shut up and hope that it dies.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!
No, actually INA, it’s because it’s insane to “debate” an insane person.
AW:
List one thing that I have stated that is not fact. All I have done is listed facts of history and talked about living in peace and harmony. I have listed many references for what I have said. On your side there has been a celebration of murder, rape, theft, racism and genocide and I have been called a lair, insane and a racist. Let the public reading this decide who is insane and the racist. The last time I checked the people who kill millions of people, then laugh, joke and deny it are the insane people.
The plain and simply fact is you are scared. As the county and world finds what you really think, you will lose and you know this. So you are afraid to let the world know what you really think.
Perhaps you learned your lesson when in the 1960’s when white people in the South (including Prince William VA) thought they could do anything they desired. They under estimated the power of the new information technology (television in that case) to expose their insanity. Martin Luther King allowed you to do your standard violent thing on him and our brown people, in front of TV cameras. Your people were so self-righteous in your arrogances that you did not realize that you were being setup. And when world and national public came down on the savage behavior of Southern white people, you got your butts kicked and lost that war. King used a martial art Bruce Lee kung fu move on your people to allow you to defeat yourselves with your own energy and hatred. All he did was to expose it to the world.
That is all I am doing here. I am using the internet, on your own website, on your turf to expose your thoughts and justification for everyone to see. And the reality is that you are afraid to say anything because you stick your foot in your mouth each time you open it, just like in your last post AW…
This is supposed to be the Bruce Lee kung fu website. Let’s see what you have got. Don’t be scared to expose your thoughts to the world. Whoever has the best case will win. Either step up and “bring it” or step down and submit and repent!!!!
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!
I was here, in PWC, in the 60’s…grew up in Virginia…and we never had a serious problem in the County. Schools were very smoothly integrated because each and every school district already had its share of black students…they merely turned the segregated high school, Jenny Dean, into a middle school and sent the kids to their respective schools in their neighborhood districts. Since everyone already had black neighbors, and often friends, there was absolutely no culture shock and, at least at my school (I was a sophomore at BDHS at the time), very welcomed. I must say, the black students were more upset about losing their high school than the whites were about having them in ours. Jennie Dean HS had the best band in the county; the best athletic teams, with the only lighted athletic fields in the county (at the time); and the highest percentage of teachers with Masters Degrees on staff. I suppose I might be upset as well, in their shoes.
You OBVIOUSLY know nothing about Prince William County!
I have been called a lair(sic), insane and a racist
And this surprises you at all? All this “white people are evil” garbage, claims that Native Americans lived in a perpetual state of peace and harmony (as if the Lakota were all about peace and harmony, ask a Hohokam, if you can find a survivor), and bizarre tirades that seek to hold present day Americans guilty for the apparent sins of long-gone ancestors?
Have you any clue of just how enraging this “peace and harmony” effort of yours really is? The only reason I haven’t cut your insanity off is that it does nothing but drive people into dedicated opposition of your agenda.
Keep posting. Please.
Oh yeah, and one other thing…they were ALL legal residents!
AW:
I think you have COMPLETELY missed the point. Why was there a need to integrate the schools? Because Prince William Co and VA supported segregation for decades and was forced by the federal government to end these immoral, unethical, racist laws. Was there slavery in Prince William county? Yes. Was Prince William forced, like the rest of Virginia and other slave states, to end slavery and to end the borders of segregation? Yes.
AW. Lets not play games. Virginia housed the capital of the confederacy. You were traders to your own country because you so badly desired maintaining people of color, both Native and African Americans as slaves, non-humans, illegal aliens. Lets not forget that we needed papers to be in VA. We were not citizens. So you are telling me that Prince William was fighting with the United States and against the trader state of VA in the civil war.
Dude I was living in VA when the schools integrated. I was one of two children to integrate our school system here is VA. I KNOW the crap that I went through. My great, great uncle was lynched in VA. Lets not rewrite history and pretend that Prince William and VA were sweet and innocent and did not participate in a 500 year history of racism, borders, segregation, murder and all was sweet and rosy.
AW said: “they were ALL legal residents”,
INA: Well lets look at history. Until 1865 based upon your laws we were slaves. Is this considered a legal resident? I don’t think so since we were not even considered human and were considered property. After 1865 you made us second class citizens with many racist, immoral, illegal laws to keep people of color separate and unequal. In fact we had borders everywhere. When brown people are not allowed to go into white only restaurants, isn’t this a border? Of course it is. When brown people are not allowed to go into white only rest rooms, use water fountains, go to white schools, go to white churches, to intermarry, go into white areas, these are all borders and we are illegal aliens and criminals when we protruded beyond these borders, because of your illegal immoral laws? These are segregation borders the same as the 1714 James River Border, the 1830 Mississippi River Border and the 2008 Rio Grande River Border and the wall being built to the south. These all are apartheid borders against brown people.
The point here AW is that your laws and borders have credibility problem. Your 2008 laws and borders cannot be view separate from your history of borders and laws and rape and theft. There is a 500 year history of you passing laws and creating borders based upon racism, theft, segregation, greed and selfishness. History is very important because history is the best indicator of what a person’s or group of people’s motives are in the present and future. Would you hire a person with a long history of child sexual abuse to baby sit your 2 year old. So when we put things in context, we get to see what your real motives are. And they are not sweet and innocent as you portray. And just because a border has been in place for 100 or 200 years and laws have been there as long does not mean they are moral, ethically or even legal and this is what we are challenging. Slavery was legal here from 1492 to 1865 (that’s 373 years). But eventually this immoral law fell because it was never truly legal.
Thus the issue at hand is whether or not it is morally, ethically and truly legal to have a border, laws and a wall on indigenous Native Americans’ homeland that segregates and barres Native Americans from sections of their own homeland. Is it morally, ethically and truly legal to continue a 500 year history of deporting Native Americans off of their own homelands.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!
Well Greg finally speaks. Good, I have been waiting for this.
Greg said, “”I have been called a lair(sic), insane and a racist”, And this surprises you at all? All this “white people are evil” garbage,
INA: Please don’t miss quote me and start the propaganda. When and where did I say, “”white people are evil” garbage”". This is the kind of lies and propaganda that your people have used for years to demonize brown people. It is not going to work here.
Greg said: “claims that Native Americans lived in a perpetual state of peace and harmony”
INA: Read La Casas and learn the real history.
Greg said: “(as if the Lakota were all about peace and harmony, ask a Hohokam, if you can find a survivor),”
INA: Most of what we know about the Lakota is 350 years after our culture was contaminated, destabilized and infected with the violent ways brought from Europe. In fact the Lakota of the 1850’s are closer to our culture today than they were to the virgin culture when Columbus arrived in 1492. For example when we think of the Lakoto we think of the great horse culture of the plains. Well there were no horses before Columbus. In fact our prophecies said that the horses brought by the white people would be part of our destruction. It takes very little to disrupt a peaceful tribal culture. However, Europeans did far more than very little. Read La Casas for yourself and see for yourself. Google La Casas. After decades and centuries and millions murdered, raped, beaten, tortured anyone will be infected by the violence of the attacker. Look at the Vandals in Europe. After the brutal genocide of their people in European during the European dark ages, they became the violent barbarians who kicked everyone else’s butts in Europe. They were so bad that this is where we get the term “vandalism”. They are the Aryans.
Greg said: “and bizarre tirades that seek to hold present day Americans guilty for the apparent sins of long-gone ancestors?”
INA: Again please don’t lie and twist what I say. Stick to the facts. This has nothing to do with guilt of your ancestors. It has to do with what you are doing today with illegal, immoral and unjust laws today, against brown people today. All we are doing with history is to get perspective and see how your words and actions fit into the patterns and actions of your parents, grand parents, great grand parents and other ancestors. We ALL look at people’s track record and history to get some idea of what their motives are today. How can your words and actions be the same as your parents, grand parents, great grand parents and other ancestors but yet your motives be different. Come on Greg people weren’t born yesterday. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and looks like a duck then it is a duck. You’re saying it is a moose!! In addition we have to have perspective. If you are calling these people immigrants, we need to check the history to see if the immigrated from somewhere. And when we look we find they have always been here. One people one land.
Greg said, “Have you any clue of just how enraging this “peace and harmony” effort of yours really is?”
INA: The truth will set you free. How can hearing the truth enrage you. Perhaps you need therapy and to heal your heart.
Greg said: “The only reason I haven’t cut your insanity off is that it does nothing but drive people into dedicated opposition of your agenda.”
INA: If you really believe what your people have said above will sway public opinion in your favor please encourage your people to keep writing. I will certainly continue writing. What I have seen is less talking and encouragement not to talk. So Greg don’t be scared of stating your position! Speak up!!!
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!
Greg:
I want to be even more clear:
1) Your people are proponents of segregating indigenous Native Americans on a small portion of their on homelands.
2) We are saying is lets figure out a way to live together in peace and harmony.
3) You are saying deport brown Native Americas out of their homelands of tens of thousands of years to small quarantined sections of their homelands.
4) We are saying lets be reasonable and look for reasonable solutions where we can all win. It is not appropriate to deport people who have from anywhere in their own historic homelands, for someone else’s convenience.
5) We say Native Americans are NOT better than white people. All people on Earth have lived in tribes for the vast majority of human history. Tribes uncorrupted by authoritarian rule, are peaceful places or harmony. Five to seven thousand years ago social systems based upon authoritarian control began violently conquering tribes and corrupting them starting primarily in Europe. The Americas, or as we say Turtle Island, being isolated from the rest of the world maintained the peaceful tribal system far longer until it also was corrupted 500 and 1000 years ago. By the time Europeans came to the Americas the idea of individual liberty was lost and the Europeans re-learned it from Native Americans and created democracy based upon the liberties they observed in NA tribes (read Indian Givers) Jack Weatherford.
6) We say we have to live in harmony with one another and with Mother Earth as well. Today we are killing Mother Earth and the indigenous world. We say this cannot continue. Read the prophecies for yourself: http://www.the7thfire.com/7thfire.htm
7) You say we are illegal immigrants.
9) You say seeking “peace and harmony” is enraging.
10) We say it is the only option for humanity.
11) You say we are racist. You cannot call people racist who are merely pointing out facts of history. I understand that it is a defensive technique to keep people from pointing out all that your people have done but it is imperative that we ALL clearly understand the REAL history.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!
None of the arguments from the immigrants in this thread are based on morals, ethics, honor - or truth.
Native indigenous people are still here, on Native indigenous lands. No one can refute or discount this fact.
What the immigrants are doing by pushing borders against these indigenous people is immoral, unjust, and are further acts of displacement and removal of indigenous peoples by immigrants.
Greg and others: you are immigrants. You are not native to these lands. However, your immigrant-based positions call for the forced removal of Natives from Native lands - yet again. Why do you wish to, today in 2008, continue the 514 years of oppression, repression, displacement, and removal of these native indigenous people from lands that they belong to?
Furthermore, an immigrant can not justifiably or rightfully define a border to a native indigenous person - any immigrant pushing borders against indigenous natives can not consider themselves a moral, ethical, or honorable person - least of all justified.
These are Indigenous Native American peoples, on Indigenous Native American Lands. These people belong here.
AnotherIndigenousNativeAmerican living in VA for well over 10,000 years!!!
[Ed note: despite the psychotic claims made by this troll, I would like to make it clear that having been born in the United States, I am not an immigrant.]
“I think you have COMPLETELY missed the point. Why was there a need to integrate the schools? Because Prince William Co and VA supported segregation for decades and was forced by the federal government to end these immoral, unethical, racist laws. Was there slavery in Prince William county?”
YOU have no point. Virtually the entire country, north and south, supported segregation in one form or another. The “Home of the Sons of Liberty,” Boston, suffered some of the most violent anti-busing demonstrations. You, as do many insane fanatics, practice revisionist history to support your own personal view of the world.
Insofar as to the practice of slavery in Prince William County, I’m sure it was practiced no more or less than it was in the rest of the country…including among the American Indian.
AW:
What are you defending? The history of slavery, racism, theft, murder in the county is well documented. You are trying to make a silly point that everything was rosy in Prince William and VA. It was not!!!!
There is no revision going on. What has happened to people of color since 1492 is well documented. Why are you defending it and trying to make things out to have been sweet and nice.
As far as slavery goes there were millions of Native Americans in slavery and killed as slaves. Yes, some people got corrupted just as many are today. As I have stated, once a tribal system is corrupted many things become crazy. But the issue that we are speaking of is not whether or not there were a few uncle toms and a few brown people who adopted the white ways and became whiter than white.
This issue is that you and your group are advocating the continued genocidal policies of 500 years:
1) Segregation of Native Americans on their own home land.
2) Relocation, imprisonment and deportation of Native Americans who step over the Mexican reservation border.
3) Continued control of Native America land and resources while barring large numbers of Native Americans from even having access to it.
4) Labeling Native Americans as races other than their own–identity and paper genocide.
5) Racial profiling against Native Americans
6) Passing laws that discriminate against Native Americans.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!
Oh…now the Mexicans are all Native Americans? That’s really funny, coming from someone who CLAIMS that they are not practicing revisionist history!
How can you revise something that has always been true. Are you going to tell me that these brown people are from Europe? What else can they be but Native American. Your political correctness marketing games cannot change reality. You try and twist reality using slick terms like revisionist history. But correcting a lie is correcting a lie. Lets keep it simple. Your slick marketing is not going to work his buddy!!!! The truth will set you FREE.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!!
AW, Greg, Dave:
I cannot believe you have nothing to say. So you are in agreement that Native American’s have a moral and ethical right to be here on their own indigenous homeland.
Don’t be scared. Express yourself!!!
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Living in VA for over 10,000 years!!!!!!!!!
No INA…you and I are the only a**holes still following this thread and your last comment (1 Apr 2008 at 11:52 am) was so moronic as to be undeserving of response. You obviously know nothing of history whatsoever and are just making it up as you go along. I suggest you go educate yourself…I don’t have a teaching certificate.
By the way, there’s no point in your making a further fool of yourself so, as far as I’m concerned, my comments are closed on this thread. You’ll just be talking to yourself.
Wow,
The fact American Indians fought for the Confederacy, and the last Confederate General to surrender was an American Indian shoots holes once more into the tool’s ramblings.
The fact American Indians were at constant war with other American Indian tribes pretty much runs counter to the whole at one with nature peaceful people bs as well.
I am a Native American, and as far as I know, I do not have a drop of American Indian blood in me.
At the present time the parents Command to their children to the best schools so that they are educated, schools that only educate cradles in laws and norms, (laws that they did not create and who do not know his origenes), (normas that do not know either and that do not fulfill), and the reality is an education very poor cradle in rasismo, traumaticos hatred, bandalismo, emotional desafios and the main one that are to believe in a full regime of laws and foreign norms. These parents the unico who look for is as his son learns to kill being rasistas, as we are biendo it at the moment in the schools. Parents who do not occur to account of which happen since they estan siegos and deaf, through foreign laws that niellos same can cumplin, only think about the money and in the power, killing to that is put to them opposite, soon they are covered saying that they are bictimas although they estan in the house of the besino and not in its own house. The future which we looked for is a based future in the family with strong values and norms you castrated to fulfill (not fantasias), norms based on the love, in respe, the disiplina, to onrar the blood and its roots, nonrasismos, not biolensia, nonwars, nonterrorisms, this perhaps is much for you and for that reason they are shielded in saying incuerentes things? Be realistic and umildes to asectar that they estan the house of the besino and not in his own house. And they do not walk with fantasias. Learn to asectar that they estan equibocados and that them altar to be men in all the extension of the word. love, umildad, respect, diciplina, loyalty, etica, among others are words that must of knowing how to respect this house, that is my house.
AW:
You say that you and I are the only people following this thread. Don’t you see the counter climbing higher and higher each day–it was at 1100 on Sunday now it is at 1656. I guess this is the same faulty logic you guys are using to conclude that indigenous Native Americans should countinue to be deported from their homelands. Boy you guys are funny.
Indigenous Native American
CitizenofManassas or should I say citizenofEurope
citizenofEurope Said, “The fact American Indians were at constant war with other American Indian tribes pretty much runs counter to the whole at one with nature peaceful people bs as well.”
This is a lie and a continuation of a long line of lies and propaganda. Prior to contact there were no wars. Have you read Las Casas yet or are you just flying on blind ignorance and wishful thinking. After contact and the horrible violence inflected upon our people, yes we became warriors. There was no choice but to do so, but before this happened, millions or people died peacefully before they would raise a hand in violence. You guys need to stop watching those hollywood movies–that John Wayne crap is pure propaganda from the white perspective.
citizenofEurope Said, “The fact American Indians fought for the Confederacy, and the last Confederate General to surrender was an American Indian shoots holes once more into the tool’s ramblings.”
Dude do they teach you to read in Europe. AW cannot add and you cannot read. What gives. I have stated several times that after millions of deaths we learned your violent ways. What more is there to say.
citizenofEurope Said, “I am a Native American, and as far as I know, I do not have a drop of American Indian blood in me.”
No you are not Native American. If your photo was sent to 10,000 people and they were asked if you were native american zero would say yes. You are a Native European. Never be shame of who you are. Be proud of your own ancestry. I realize that your people did a lot of horrible things, but you cannot simply disavow who you are. You are white and should be proud. Just repeat after me, “I’m white and I am proud, say it loud, I am white and I am proud.” You’ve stolen nearly everything but we will not allow you to still our idenity.
Indigenous Native American
There are many good white people out there. I am asking you, do you agree with AW, Greg and Dave that:
1) Native American’s lost this land and therefore should be barred from it forever by an apartheid border created specifically to keep out all but a token of Native Americans.
2) If Native Americans try to come back into their homelands they are criminals.
3) That we should continue the 500 years of deportation and quarantine of Native Americans on their homelands
Is this what white people really believe? I don’t think so but you should speak for yourself.
Indigenous Native American
Wow! They’re Indian?! With names like “Great Buffalo”?!… oh… they have names like Juan Hernandez. Well then, I guess they speak Cherokee, or Aztec or Mayan?! … oh… they speak Spanish. Ya know… they sound a lot like plain old Mexicans to me… with Spanish ancestry… that sneaked into our country. I can’t see giving them any special rights.
Wow! Jim Crow, KKK, lynchings, torture, extermination… they are throwing everything but the kitchen sink!! I’d really like to comment on this… but I gotta go horsewhip some slaves!! BTW… does the word “illegal” mean anything to these people?
Karla:
This is the exact question. Does the word illegal mean anything to you. Look at all of the things above that you’ve done. And nobody is making a big deal out of it except to hold up a mirror. When you start calling others illegal you’d better have a clear record. But of all people your record is the worst in the world.
Indigenous Native American
DisingenuousNativeAmerican,
All the things above that I’ve done? Really? I think you are jumping to many conclusions about me… as any racist would. LOL
Karla:
INA said: Please cut the ignorance. So you are saying since the Europeans from Spain invaded the center part of our continent, instead of Europeans from England, these brown people are not Native to American? So only Native Americans who speak English are real Indians? What kind of simple minded logic is this? Don’t you know that virtually all Native Americans now have some white ancestry. In addition how can one drop of black blood make you black but 90% Native blood makes you something else? It looks like your people make up rules that are convenient for you.
INA said: You need to read what I have written above and be specific in your comments. I have been very specific providing specific references. Any fool can make a general statements from self-interest and greed but lets get into some details. Please explain based upon what I have written above how they are NOT Native American. You say they look like plain Mexicans. Boy the ignorance grows. Do you know that the word Mexico and Mexican comes from the Mexica which is one of our continent’s Native American tribes. I am getting tired of having you educate you people.
Karla said, “that sneaked into our country.”
INA: If that isn’t the pot calling the kettle black. Your people are the original sneakers, stealers, thieves. And yet we are not attacking you with harsh claims. However, if you want to attack we will hold up the mirror. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
Karla said, “I can’t see giving them any special rights”
INA said: Who are you, god? It was determined long before you were born that Turtle Island was a brown continent. It is, has always been and always will be. If you do not like this leave. You cannot quarantine us on our own homelands.
Also be careful what you ask for. As the prophecies have stated for hundreds of years the real immigrants and aliens will have to leave this land. If I were you I would cut the arrogance because powers greater than us are calling the shots here and you may get what you are asking for with the immigrants and aliens being gone quite soon.
Indigenous Native American
Living in Va for over 10,000 years
Karla said: “DisingenuousNativeAmerican, All the things above that I’ve done? Really? I think you are jumping to many conclusions about me… . LOL”
INA: You is plural. You cannot be in possession of stolen property. Yes, perhaps you did not steal it but you know that it was stolen and you know that it was stolen from the people that you are trying to deport. Have you and your people no shame. And then to claim complete innonences. Arrogance at its highest!!! But typical!!!
Karla said: “as any racist would”
INA: So this seems to be the new fad. When someone points out the racist, horrible things a group of people have done, the mere act of pointing this out, makes the person pointing it out a racist. Karla, you have to be smarter than this. It is the old, “best defense is a good offense”. It is insane logic. A person of color is kidnapped by the KKK and beaten and tortured. The victim goes to court and presses charges. He tells the story of the abuse in court. A KKK member jumps up and says, “he is a racist.” The judge ask why do you say this. Well he is recounting the facts of a racist attack on him by white people. Do you see the insanity of your logic.
Please explain this simple minded, twisted logic.
Karla Says, “DisingenuousNativeAmerican”
INA: What evidence are you basing this on? Or is this just another of your simple minded accusations with zero evidence.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
Fighting Terrorism since 1492
IndignantNativeAmerican,
Here is a note I left you on another chat…
This “native american” BS doesn’t cut it with me… 3 scenarios:
1. Police Officer, “You were driving 30 mph over the limit.”
Native American, “But I am a native American. I am not subject to your laws.”
Police Officer, “Oh, excuse me! Continue on then!”
2. IRS Agent, “You didn’t pay your taxes!”
Native American, “But I am a native American. I am not subject to your laws.”
IRS Agent, “Oh, silly me! Yes, you don’t owe any taxes!”
3. Immigration Agent, “Hey, you broke into our country!”
Native American, “But I am a native American. I am not subject to your laws.”
Immigration Agent, “I’m sorry! Please continue on your way!”
These scenarios don’t work for obvious reasons.
Now, if a native American was living in a teepee, on government land, hunting with a bow and arrow, and a ranger insisted that he buy a hunting license, I would be one of the first to chastise that ranger! But these “native americans” want to live in homes, send their children to public schools, etc. If you want to live in society then you must play by society’s rules. You cannot have it both ways.
If you don’t want to play by society’s rules then you are welcome to move to a country where the rules are not enforced as strongly. I hear Mexico is one such country. BTW, ever wonder why Mexican society is such a disaster and people are crying to get out?
Karla:
Your comments are so insane that I will not waste my time replying to each one of you accusations. They make no sense and have nothing to do with what I have said. show me where I said or alluded to any of this.
You can take the time to read what I have said and comment on this. But making up stuff and coming up with silly arguments is a waste of my time. Please read what I have said and address what I have said not some illusions from your mind. Don’t be lazy.
If these things are too complex for you to understand it is best to just be silent like your other partners who are silent and scared to speak.
As Martin Luther King said, unjust and immoral laws are not laws at all. And we are obligated to break them to show the world the injustice.
In regards to getting out, why would I leave my home of 10,000 plus years. As I have said before when the illegal immigrants begin calling the indigenous people immigrants and asking them to leave their own homelands, we know that we are dealing with either insane people or crooks and thugs.
IndigenousNativeAmerican
INA, you say that Karla’s “silly arguments” are a waste of your time. You may want to consider that putting your comments on this website is a waste of time if you’re looking for someone to seriously discuss the points you have made. What is it that you aspire to accomplish with your postings that is worth your time? Educate? Vent? Elicit anger?
IgnorantNativeAmerican,
I tire of your mindless blather. I no more owned slaves than you lived here for 10,000 years! Do you really think that posting a sign that talks about KKK, racism and slavery is going to win the hearts and minds of present American citizens. You seem to feel someone “owes” you something. We owe you nothing! No Americans alive today owned slaves. Moreover, now many Americans are Pakistani, Chinese, east Indian, who have arrived here legally. They don’t want to hear your whining either.
You are obviously delusional, and so bound and determined to stay in the land that the Americans have created that you will rationalize anything to do it. All I can say is, you are lucky that America exists and that you have somewhere to run to, since you and your brethren have done nothing but destroy your homelands.
I tire of reading your worthless drivel. I have a hint for you. At your deportation hearing how about you tell the judge about slavery and the KKK and your life here over the last 10,000 years and see how far that gets you. Perhaps he will have more time and patience for your worthless arguments than I do.
Karla:
I do not think you have read what I have written. In order for you to come to your conclusions you have translated what I have said, through out this thread, into something else. There is no need for me to repeat any of what I have written. Please reread what I have written. My intent is to give people the big picture of the situation so that we see things in context and connections between things. However, I must say that if one is coming from a selfish, greedy presepctive it does not matter how much you re-read it your opinion will not chane.
We do not live life in an isolated box separate from history, the past and the future and our other actions in the present. You say you did not own slaves. But how is our killing one million brown people in Iraq so that we can take the oil, coming from the same place as white people 150 years ago with slaves. We have to learn to see trends and connections between things. Our votes for George Bush and our tax dollars murdered these people for no reason except oil.
Analysis says there is no connection between things things. But of course there is. Whether slavery or oil it is all about selfishness and greed which comes from fear. So again we are back to the question of how do we live in a world together where we are not coming from fear. Because we are in this world together and we brown people are not going anywhere, so there is no other choice.
Please lets work for honest open dialogue and peaceful solutions not not just seek to see things from our selfish perspectives.
Love and Peace
Indigenous Native American
The Meek Share Inherent the Earth
Please I am asking all of the people who are speaking from fear to slow down and let the fear go. The continent of American or Turtle Island (North and South America) is a brown continent. The vast majority of people living here are brown Native Americans. This has always been the case and will always be. If the efforts to exterminate our people with 95% of our population being murdered by white people did not work, then nothing today will work in a world with the communications power of the internet.
So we have to let go of the fear and realize if we are white and live on Turtle Island then we must learn to live together. We must learn to love one another. We must look back to our own past to understand where such fear came from in our hearts and try and heal this fear. We must understand that we are still living with hurts from the brutal horror of the European dark ages where people through out Europe went through an unbelievable holocaust with rape, death, destruction, theft, murder, disease being the norm. We are also still living with the hurts from the 4,000 years before this with the oppression of the Authoritarian Age including the oppression of the Roman Empire. If we go back further to when your European ancestors were living in uninfected tribes, like our Native American tribes, you will find people who lived in peace and harmony who had no fear in their hearts. This is where we must return. We must go back to a time when human’s lived at one with mother earth and from love before authoritarian rule conquered the entire world and encased our hearts in concrete.
Only then will we be able to live together in harmony. Only then will be see that color does not matter. Only then will you not feel threatened by being a minority on Brown Turtle Island and try to control this with immoral borders, laws and violence and end the 500 year oppression of Native Americans on Turtle Island.
The Native American prophecies, from before contact and the invasion that foretold of the invasion, have foretold of our times today where the brown people would return as we see. They also foretold of the end of the ways brought here by white people that we call “the way of the mind”. We can read the writing on the wall now with such threats brought to the world by the “way of the mind” with peak oil and global warming. Things CANNOT continue as they have for 500 years on Turtle Island and 5,000 years in Europe operating from control and authority. Even your bible speaks of revelations and the transition out of the current system. In the coming years, 5, to 10 to 30 years the authoritarian system started in Europe 5,000 to 7.000 years ago and now infecting the entire world will come to an end. It could come from many direction. We are currently right at the top of world oil production 2007 and 2008—known as peak oil. Every year from now on world oil production will continue to decline until we run out. At the same time our economic demand for oil is increasing. What happens 2 to five years from now when we a shortage of millions of gallons each day and gas cost $30 to $50 per gallon. The world economy will collapse and along with Western Civilization.
The only way out is to begin healing our hearts from the hurts of the past, to learn to love one another and mother earth, to repent and understand that the answers to our problems do not lie in our heads but in our hearts; to tear down the walls and embrace our Native American brothers and all people. The powers in charge of things are far greater than we are. And continuing to oppress Native Americans after 500 years and the theft of their land makes a clear statement as you where your heart is and this along with the other aspect of embracing the authoritarian system and authoritarian world via your lifestyle decisions and choices will seal your fate.
I ask you once again to let go of the fear. Tear down the walls in your hearts as the borders that separate us. Come together with people of color and begin a dialogue to heal ourselves and our world. We are all not infected and hurt. We are all scared. And we will all either live together or die together.
Peace and Love
Indigenous Native American
The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth
You sound like a terrorist, INA. From what I understand, your take on history sounds very similar to that of the EXTREMIST (not majority mainstream) Muslims, simply from a different 1st person perspective. Looks like you are giving credibility to the terrorist theory for closing our borders. Thanks!
By the way INA, I still say that you should make your way over to AntiBVBL and grace them with your commentary. I know that you will find a FAR MORE receptive audience over there. Who knows…perhaps you’ll actually find some converts.
AW:
You say I sound like a terrorist. What have you been smoking. I am talking about living in peace,calm, learning to get along together, love, collobration. How do you convert this into terrorism.
Your people are talking about kicking our butts, looking down gun barrels, killing more Native Americans, continuing to deport Native Americans from their own homelands after 500 years of genocide. It is very clear who the terrorists are, but I or we are not making a big deal of it–I am merely holding up a mirror. You say we are immigrants and I hold up the mirror to show that you are the true immigrants. When you call us terrorists I again hold up the mirror. The point is I or we are not throwing the first stone–we are not the aggressors we are merely defending. After the history of your people here and the terrorism created against Native Americans how can you possibly call us the terrorist.
Again I don’t believe that your views are the majority white view. I simply have a hard time thinking after the history of what your people have done that most people see us as the immigrants and terrorists and white people as mere victims.
And the “The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth” is right out of your Christian bible. When did this become extreme in the U.S.
If we are to survive on this planet we must deal with reality and real history and not live in some type of dream world of fiction and make believe based upon self-interest and greed.
Please people speak? Are we Native Americans delusional or is it AW and his few radical followers who have touted war more deaths of Native Americans and more forced Indian removals from Native homelands.
Peace and Love
Indigenous Native American
The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth
INA, you cling to this fantasy that modern-day Americans are personally responsible for murders, forced relocations, and war against Native Americans. While I think we all acknowledge that the treatment of Native Americans during our history has been terrible, trying to hold current generations liable for those past grievances is plain irresponsible.
My ancestors did nothing more than attempt to convert Native Americans to catholicism in Canada during this time period. When you insult me by suggesting that I am engaged in the present-day wrongful treatment of Native Americans with your bizarre tirades, it hardly resembles this peace and love you speak of. You appear to be little more than an embittered radical activist, bent on laying blame on the blameless, while couching your language in a disingenuous cloak of sunshine and puppies.
If your intent is to enrage as many people as possible into shutting out any consideration of how we should address the lingering effects of past atrocious behavior, you’re succeeding splendidly. I can honestly attest that I am less interested in even hearing about this issue now than ever before.
Greg said, “fantasy that modern-day Americans are personally responsible for murders, forced relocations, and war against Native Americans”
INA’s Response: I don’t know if you cannot read or what the problem is, I have been very clear in what I have written. The point has nothing to do with modern day Americans being personally responsible for murders and war against Native Americans.
The point is the consistency between what “you” and your kind are doing today and what white people have been doing for 500 years. They are some of the same actions with the same motives. Why can’t you get this through your head. It is simple logic and analysis 101. White people in what you call American have been relocating Native Americans on our own homelands since 1492 right up to this week in Prince William County. What do you think deportation is? It is forced relocation. Not seeing this 1+1 logic is what is a fantasy. We have to look at the full picture in order to see what is occurring. The murders and wars in the past against Native Americans were all about the land where the United States now stands and today the deportations are still about the land–deporting us off of this land. What is so difficult for you to see with the basic kindergarden logic.
Greg said, “My ancestors did nothing more than attempt to convert Native Americans to catholicism in Canada during this time period.”
INA response: Do you realize what a horrible crime this was? In canada thounsands of children were killed in christian schools in Canada because they would not convert to Christanity. There is much documented regarding the horrible way Christainy was forced on us with torture, death. We were tortured and killed if we spoke our own language or practiced our own religion. The religious brainwashing was part of the genocide on Turtle Island. Are you really that unaware of what your people’s personal role was as to sit here and say “my ancestors did nothing more than attempt to convert Native Americans to catholicism”. Wow!! No wonder you take the positions you do. I wonder if you’d feel the same if someone did this to your family. I suggest some education is so that you learn the real history of what you family did and what you are a product of. Just google your own words, “convert Native Americans to catholicism in Canada”.
Greg said, “When you insult me by suggesting that I am engaged in the present-day wrongful treatment of Native Americans with your bizarre tirades, it hardly resembles this peace and love you speak of.”
INA response: Greg, you must be kidding. You seem to be the foremost advocate of deporting and forced relocations of Native Americans out of Prince William CO and VA. That is what your website and forum is all about. So you are saying to point out a wrongful, racist act is violent and non-peaceful. Martin Luther King said we are obligated to point out the wrongs being done. I think King and Gandi would definitely disagree with you that pointing out racist, greedy, selfish acts is in and of itself violent and non-peaceful.
Greg said, “You appear to be little more than an embittered radical activist, bent on laying blame on the blameless”
INA response: where do you see anything embittered, radical or of an activist nature? So when is stating facts radical. Show things that I have said that were NOT facts. Just becuase they don’t fit within your narrow, limited perspective does not make them radical. Facts are facts!!!
Greg said, “while couching your language in a disingenuous cloak of sunshine and puppies.”
INA Response: Why is calling for tolerance, peace, living together in peace and harmony anything but what it is. If we don’t learn to do this we will not make it beyond the next 50 years. Ask me to explain this and I will and it all has to do with the powershift that Information technology shifts to the individual from bureaucracies.
I truely hope that you can find peace in your heart and release the rage and anger that has you leading the way to continue a 500 year genocide of Indigenous Native Americans in their own homeland of Turtle Island, by seeking the forced removal and deportation of Native Americans, whose only crime is to be born brown and on Turtle Island.
Peace and Love
Indigenous Native American
The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth
Greg said: “If your intent is to enrage as many people as possible into shutting out any consideration of how we should address the lingering effects of past atrocious behavior, you’re succeeding splendidly. I can honestly attest that I am less interested in even hearing about this issue now than ever before.”
INA response: So when you thought there were a few hundred Indians left in VA you were all for feeling sorry for us. We were no longer a threat to the Euro-Americans dream of Manifest Destiny. Now you have been educated and know that there may be as many as one million Native Americans in VA and that the continent is majority Native Americans making Euro-Americans a small minority. Yes, this does pose a threat to the immoral vision of manifest destiny. All this means is that we must learn to get along and live together. That you are not the boss man who can dictate to everyone else how the world will work.
We must work and live together in peace and harmony. As they saw in South Africia walls are not tall enough to keep Natives segregated in their own homelands.
Anger and rage comes from fear. There is nothing to fear from living with Brown people. We will not treat you the way that you have treated us. We will not try to deport you like you are doing with us. However, there is a limit to the amount of abuse anyone can be expected to take. 500 years is enough don’t you think?
Peace and Love
Indigenous Native American
The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth
Greg, AW, Karla and other Anti-Native Americans
What is the problem? You are quite. Are you afraid that the more you speak the more plain the immorality and irrationally of your positions will be exposed. Yes, please continue to talk so that the world can judge for themselves the insanity of your positions.
You are in the exact same positions as the minority rule whites segregationist and separatists in South Africa. Again you must learn to be confortable with brown people and learn to live as a minority here. This is just a fact of life. You have chosen to live on a brown continent.
Greg each time you speak you talk about how angry and enraged you are. Nobody is forcing you to stay here on a brown continent. Nobody forced your people to come here and build your society on someone else’s land. Your anger is like the rapist who is angry at the person being raped for merely saying how she is being hurt.
Again the point is we must learn to live together. Why are you all resisting peace and love so much.
Indigenous Native American
The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth
# manassascityresident said on 15 Apr 2008 at 7:50 pm: blah, blah, blah…..come up with something new will you?
INA said: The truth is the truth. What new needs to be said. None of your people have been able to make a half reasonable case. .
# AWCheney said on 15 Apr 2008 at 8:12 pm: Herve, that’s not at all the issue. I always find it interesting when enablers change the subject to avoid the actual point. Is it because they don’t have the ability to reason the point so they choose to misdirect it; is it because their reading comprehension is flawed and they can’t figure out the point to begin with; or is it because they don’t have a legitimate point to make so they twist the discussion into a totally different direction and hope that, by trial and error, they can find a point that they actually have the ability to argue? So sad.
AW: I am shocked to see you jumping on someone else’s case when this is exactly what you have done. Each time to speak regarding the issues I raise you either run away with no comeback or change the subject.
# legal2 said on 15 Apr 2008 at 10:18 pm: I guess IndigenousNative wants to go all the way back to the Aztecs who murdered thousands per day (human sacrifice) ripping out the hearts of their victims while still alive and sometimes noshing on them. http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/latinamerica/topics/human_scacrifice.html
Great strides have since been made by those Europeans that you so love to hate, like it or not. US citizens are a bit more civilized (though imperfect) and have created this coveted culture in much shorter time than apparently the “natives” are able to do, so much so that they risk crossing the border to live here, rather than in their indigenous south & central America.
INA: This is the type of ignorance that enabled a holocaust of our people. I have already explain about why you are dead wrong in your comments above and how this violence you speak of actually came from Europe. Please get educated before spreading this ignorance. Prior to European contact there was no violence on Turtle Island.
# Michael said on 15 Apr 2008 at 11:25 pm: Today is the day I submitted my tax return. This year, more than in past years, it was an especially angry submission, knowing that “illegal” immigrants who work for people who are law-breakers themselves, are not submitting and paying tax. I am paying their share for them and that does not make me very happy. They get “free” social services paid for by my tax dollars, and I do not, which makes me even more upset this tax day. I am ready to vote any government official out of office who does not come up with a way for us to determine “illegal” people from legal people, and deport those we find until none of them are left to screw me out of my tax dollars.
INA said: one of the things that has enabled the holocaust of millions of our people is this type of lying propaganda. Please explain to me how a person works in a job, gets a pay check and pays no state and federal taxes. Taxes are taken out of the check before the money is paid. How does a person buy gas without paying gas tax. How does a person register a car without paying taxes. The thing that is sad about these kind of ruthless lies is that there is a 500 year history of these type lies in order to kills, deport, force relocate, torture Native Americans all due to people’s vicious lies.
The truth shall set you free!!!
• Anonymous said on 17 Apr 2008 at 2:42 am: IndigenousNativeAmerican: Your people practiced genocide long before Europeans reclaimed this continent. The Aztecs at the height of their civilization sacrificed 30,000 people a year and warring groups showed no mercy to each other. Natives killed each other in far greater numbers than Europeans ever did.
INA said: This is simply more propaganda to justify the violence done by your people. I have already explained above how this is a lie. I don’t see where you have commented on any of the details I have provided. Have you read the references I have provided or are you still speaking from self-interest, greed and ignorance?
• BattleCat said on 17 Apr 2008 at 6:10 am: And in the department of redundancy department, we have IndigenousNativeAmerican!!!
INA Said: People learn through repetition. Slower people learn with lots of repetition. Draw your own conclusions.
• Fuzzy said on 17 Apr 2008 at 7:10 am: IndigenousNativeAmerican: If you don’t like the way you’re treated, you are in no way a captive here, and you’re always free to leave.
INA said: You are the immigrant. If anyone will be leaving it will be you.
Fuzzy said: Also, I’ll concede all your points.
INA said: Thanks I appreciate this. At least there is one person of reason here.
Fuzzy said: Ahhh, and before I forget, let me give you some advice on your propaganda campaign. When you are pandering to those who already believe in your cause, “native americans”, all that rhetoric about history is an effective tool. When you’re trying to influence those who aren’t friendly to your cause, accusing us of genocide, comparing us to 1940’s Germany, etc… is not an effective tool.
INA: That is the difference between white or authoritarian culture and free indigenous culture. Everything with your people is about marketing, tricking, conning, convincing. Our culture is about truth, freedom, openness, no-hidden agenda. I am just laying out facts of history. This is our way. Don’t be so prejudice as to think that everyone should think like white people. It is up to you to judge this knowledge and your karma will handle the situation based upon your reaction. For example if you did not know that the people you call illegal immigrants were in fact Native Americans and the current deportations were part of a 500 year holocaust, before I began writing and your anti-immigrant position did not change once you learned this new info, your karma will take care of this. It is none of my business. It is between you and your karma.
Fuzzy said: At least then we’ll have a productive dialog before we kick you all out.
INA said: So you are proud of your 500 years actions of forced relocations, deportations, and genocide. This just shows the world the type of violent people support your cause. By the way you will never kick me out. Our people have been in what you VA for over 10,000 years and are not going anywhere.
• Anonymous said on 17 Apr 2008 at 8:08 am: They already call us racists, and say we are the true illegals, so what else could they possibly call us? Vandals, oohhhhhhhh.
Violence has been your way for so long that you don’t realize that it is relatively new to many brown tribal people around the world. Do you realize that the word “vandalize” comes from the people of Europe named the Vandals. During your dark ages they were raped and beaten so badly that they became like the people who did this to them and became the barbarians of Europe and kicked everyone else’s butts. They were so bad that the word vandalism was coined for their actions. You guys should learn your own history and should not need a Native American to teach you European history. So yes Mr. ignorant anonymous you are the original vandals who started vandalism
• Anonymous said on 17 Apr 2008 at 8:08 am: I say good that someone finally had the ba!!s to show them we won’t have our families insulted, and then just stand there and take it. I know the law actually prevents you from taking action in that case, but sometimes a “Mans gotta do what a mans gotta do”.
INA said: Your people insult your own families by going around the world killing innocent brown people for 500 years for your own self-confront, greed and selfishness. Why is in not an insult or crime to do these violent acts but to openly speak of what you have done is insulting. Is this sick or what? When will you stop the murder? We are obligated to shine the spot light on your behavior until it stops.
INA said: Violence has been your way for 500 years. Why would you change now. This is what you learned in Europe for 5000 years before you came here. It is as predictable as sunshine. The European holocaust left you coming from a fear paradigm which leads you to try to control, dictate, dominate everything. And your view is if violence is required then so be it, “a “Mans gotta do what a mans gotta do”. There can be no freedom of speech around your people until you heal your fear and learn to love.
I had an old conservative white man approach me last year. I’d never met him before. He whispered in my ear, “you know I think Indians were better people that white people.” I said no and explained the history and how white people have simply gotten off of the path after 1000 years of dark ages and 5000 years of authoritarian rule. And now are socialized deeply in the fear and control paradigm which produces selfishness, greed, violence. All that is needed is the healing of your heart. I routinely defend your actions. The issue is not one of race but one of followers of authoritarian control –vs- liberty. We live in an authoritarian system of control. You are controlled, we are controlled, everyone is controlled.
• Freedom said on 17 Apr 2008 at 8:25 am: Oh Fuzzy, Indigenouswhatever doesn’t want any of the positives that you’ve proposed; he/she just wants to stir the pot, doesn’t even believe what he/she’s saying.
INA said: I am here to educate and liberate. The truth and only the truth will set you free. You are slaves of your authoritarian world view. Yes the truth will upset many people’s worldview of white Americans being peaceful people who only use control, force and use violence in self-defense. It is simply a lie. It is the same lie that the Nazis would have told for hundreds of years if they’d won WWII. Just look. The U.S. just killed one million brown people in Iraq for oil. But you do not see that you are the aggressors. You did the same to brown tribal people in Vietnam and El Salvador. And the list is a mile long over the past 500 years. This behavior comes from your socialization in Europe for 6000 years under authoritarian control and now you have us all living under authoritarian control.
• Patty said on 17 Apr 2008 at 8:48 am: There are no such thing as indigenous americans. First americans would be the accurate description.
INA Said: Yes you are correct. The term America is from an Italian fellow. However, if we called ourselves by our real names you would not know what we were talking about.
Patty said: Also, Cortez and his conquistadors went into Mexico and its environs.
INA said; What??? Mexico is also America and Cortez is also European.
Patty said: INA, why don’t you make your complaints to Spain. The Mexicans have roots with Spain.
INA said: Mexicans are Native Americans and have their roots in America. As I have said this is not about the past or complaining. This is about understanding your actions today and how they are part of the 500 year holocaust.
long time said on 17 Apr 2008 at 9:27 am: IndigenousNativeAmerican it is your form of self serving lies and mistruths that infuriate people on both sides of this complex issue.
INA said: Lets not generalize. Please point out details in what I have said that was not true. Any fool can make a general statement but it takes and intelligent person to get into the details and go the distance and provide supporting references to support what they say. I am not saying that you are a fool but your actions speak for themselves.
Long time said: There is no doubt we as a nation had our growing pains. We are still an adolescent nation in the grand world order, and yet as a nation we have done things no other nation has ever done trying to protect true native americans.
INA said: Please list the details of all that your people have done to and for Native Americans. I think you are ignorant of your own history. I will put this in terms you can understand—money. Once you put this complete list together what you will find is for every penny worth of value given one million dollars worlt of value was taken. Since you made the point please back it up with details or you risk looking like a fool.
Second point, western culture is not in its adolescences. The U.S. and the authoritarian global system it leads in the maturation of 6000 years of authoritarian rule, conquest and control over the indigenous way all started in Europe. As the prophecies have stated for thousands of years and science today shows us and most people now realize, this system cannot possibly continue. Peak oil, global warming, the powershift created by the internet all point to the end of the horrible and abusive system. Your time is over, your abuse will continue no longer, your cycle has ended, the violence must stop and the meek shall now inherit the earth. It is time for peace and love and the truth will set you free and heal your heart.
Long time said: I’m with others and invite you and your fellow chickens to leave if you don’t like it here. If you want to stay then follow our American (United States of America) laws, customs and values.
INA said: I am on my continent. If anyone will be leaving it will be people who thrive on violence, murder, control and disrespect for mother earth. The true laws of Turtle Island has always been peace, love, harmony, respect for mother earth. The people who live by these principles will be staying and the one’s who don’t will be leaving. You have a choice. Live by these natural laws or leave.
Long time said: Freedom is a precious thing!
INA said: We Native American taught you all that you know about freedom. Read the books Lila and Indian Givers to understand this. The U.S. is not a system based upon freedom. It is a system of authoritarian control. We are merely free to elect who will be the dictators who will rule over us between two choices. Government and control of people has never worked and never will. To understand true freedom you must understand Native culture.
• Che’ said on 17 Apr 2008 at 10:20 am: I’m of American Indian descent, and can tell you I have no cultural or familial ties with the inhabitants of Mexico or Central America. Mexican Indians have as much claim to America as I do to El Salvador.
Hello Che:
INA said: Do you know how many white people have come up to me and said, “hey my grandmother was a Cherokee Indian princess.” If you were truly Native American and knew your culture you would not be so ignorant to make the statement above. We had no borders and there was free flow of people all over the Turtle Island. The notion of freedom was introduced to the Europeans by Native Americans. Your people had forgotten what it was since you’d been under authoritarian rule for so long.
You people need to stop coming from fear. Fear leads you to jump to conclusions. Who said anything about claiming the United States. Second, do you see the contradiction and racism in your words. They are from American. Your people named the entire continent America and not just the US. They are all American and have a right to claim America. You evidently think that only the U.S. is America—ignorance and arrogance a deadly combination.
The Truth Shall Set you Free
Indigenous Native American
The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth
# the shootist said on 17 Apr 2008 at 9:55 am: My point is: this is my country too, and I get as much say as anyone, including you, about what “customs and values” means.
INA Reply: I don’t know if you are talking to me but all I am talking of is history and how we can learn to live together. Please do not come from fear because it will make you see threats that are not there. The European Dark ages are over. Heal the fear and lets learn to love and be together. The values that I have spoken of are not of the U.S. I have spoken of universal principles of peace, love, cooperation, respect for Mother Earth. The values demonstrated by your people for 500 years are greed, selfishness, death, war, theft. We must learn to look at history and stop the wishful thinking of what we would like for history to be.
Shootist said: So. Since my notion of “customs and values” is just as valid as yours, I’m going to make a suggestion to you that holds just as much weight as your suggestion to “the chickens”: please leave. For your crime of violating my idea of American customs and values, I would like you to please leave this country.
INA Reply: You have not list what your customs and values are. History shows what they are and they likely do not match the mental model in your head. The values of this land are universal and unchangeable: Peace, love, respect for mother earth and all of her inhabitants. Your people’s track record does not reflect these values and thus you are the ones that will be leaving unless you change. This has all been foretold in the prophecies long before you came. It is your choice.
Shootist said: May I suggest China? They’re pretty patriotic over there. Lots of flags and military parades. You’d probably love it.
INA Reply: China is just another country with an authoritarian system of social order. The U.S., the old Soviet Union, England are all systems based upon authoritarian control thus dictatorship. We just get to elect our dictators. You will not see me doing some patriotic flag waving for any authoritarian system. They all are designed to control and oppress people and kill mother earth..
Shootist said: Now, I understand that moving to China is easier said than done. They speak a lot of English over there, but you might want to learn how to ask for the restroom, at least, in Cantonese. Then you’ll have to sell your house, and in this market, that’s going to be tough. But, you know, freedom isn’t free.
What freedoms do you have in the US. Please list them. I already addressed this ignorance above. Everyday you wake up to just what a poor system of social order you live under where you only have the freedom to elect your dictator. How many people are discontent with democracy and government in the US. The vast majority. The problem today is that there is nothing to compare it to. The peaceful tribal systems of social order have all be violent crushed with systems of control and government world wide. One is no better than the other. If you want to understand real freedom you will have to study tribalism uncorrupted by authoritarian control.
# Che’ said on 17 Apr 2008 at 10:20 am: I’m of American Indian descent, and can tell you I have no cultural or familial ties with the inhabitants of Mexico or Central America. Mexican Indians have as much claim to America as I do to El Salvador. # just news said on 17 Apr 2008 at 10:59 am: Che’ I am glad someone has the courage to point out what anyone with a minimum of historical knowledge should know, and that is: No central american or Mexican has any claim stake or even shared traditions with North American Indians.
INA Reply: Where in the world do you people make up these rules and ideas. If you look at a pre-invasion map you will clearly see that we are all the same people. You cannot just come onto someone else’s land and morally draw lines and borders where you please and declare these people separate from those people. That is like me coming into your house telling you that you and you sister are not relatives. This is the height of arrogance’s. Are you aware that the border actually divided and divides families and tribes. How can you say we are not the same people. Speaking from ignorance and self-interest is the way of your people for 500 years. It is all about what is in your best interest.
just news: I would like for the Native American Indian who is not, to stop the horse manure he keeps laying on this blog. We at least know the history you are trying to distort.
INA Reply: Any fool can make a general statement. Please back it up with details. Please point out anything that I have said which is not true and lets see if you can back up what you say.
just news: Return to your country then petition Espana for citizenship and keep the communist propaganda to yourself.
INA Reply: I am in my land as our people have been for over 10,000 years. We were here in the land you call VA living in peace when your people were starving like rats and killing each other in Europe.
Indigenous Native American
“None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, 1749-1832
“I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more
if only they knew they were slaves.” - Harriet Tubman
The Truth Will Set you Free
Indigenous Native American
So Native Americans are one culture and they are good in many ways. Europeans are one culture and they are bad in many ways. What about Africans and Asians? Are these also single cultures? Are they good or bad?
Anon said: So Native Americans are one culture and they are good in many ways. Europeans are one culture and they are bad in many ways.
INA Reply: I never said this. If you are going to quote me please quote my exact words. I am very careful in the exact words that I am using for very specific reasons. One word can change the entire message of a sentence.
What about Africans and Asians? Are these also single cultures? Are they good or bad?
INA Reply: Good and bad are relative terms. It all depends upon the out come one desires. If one desires living in peace, love, cooperation. family and abundance then having systems of authoritarian rule, government, analysis will not deliver this. For this one needs a system of liberty and synthesis. If one desires rape, abuse, murder, violence, competition, scarcity, control then systems of authoritarian rule, government, democracy, socialism, communism, capitalism, dictatorship, analysis will deliver this.
Also please don’t try and over simplify what I am saying. The universe works via systems which are all interconnected together forming complete wholes. Our analytical based modern world has a hard time with systems and tries to break things into generalized or small cubbyholes. This is the great strength and the failure of analysis.
Indigenous Native American
Knowledge is Power
I wasn’t quoting you. I was communicating what I perceived you to be saying. I’ll be more explicit. You refer to Native Americans as a single people. I think that this is an over simplification. There are many varied cultures from the arctic circle to tierra del fuego. Just as there are also many varied European cultures from Italy to Norway. Simplification is what the human mind does. It sees patterns. Other wise we would be overwhelmed. It is however important to know that this necessary function is present and it distorts reality to some extent, sometimes a lot.
Anon:
I agree with you to an extent. I definitely did not refer to Native Americans as a single person. Could you quote my exact words, date and time when I did this? Our English language and analytical thought form of analysis and social norms has us break things into categories. I am refering to Native Americans as a single race such as Black, White, Asian. I would think this is self evident based upon what I have been saying. I realize that the Euro definition does not refer to Indians as a separate race but that is there bias based upon their science. Race is a man made construct and thus can be divided as one wishes. The key is does it make sense. It makes sense for Native Americans to see themselves as a separate race because we, as a general rule, don’t buying to Bering Strait theory. Our history , spirituality, science says we have always been here. We did not immigrate from anywhere.
In addition, there are cultural norms that are consistent to Native Americans through out Turtle Island (N and S America) prior to contact. When I speak of Native culture I am speaking of these norms–these norms are as I have stated several times above: spirituality integrated into all of life, peace, abundance, collaboration, love. For the most part these are tribal or indigenous norms. If we go back far enough we will find all people on the planet living based upon these tribal cultural norms. However, Europe was forced out of these norms 5000 or 6000 years ago by authoritarian rule.
Europe also had general cultural norms for at least 1,000 years before coming here. This was during the European Dark Ages or what I refer to as the Death of Authority Age. These cultural norms were win/lose, theft, death, destruction, rape, plunder, murdered, forced relocations, genocide. I am sure some communities tucked away somewhere may have avoided getting caught up in the mess, but the norm of Europe was as stated above. And for 1,000’s years before this Rome was forcing “corrupted” tribes out of tribalism into authoritarianism. The norm through out Europe was authority. Systems of authority carry a set of cultural norms which are a complete and whole system. This is also true of systems of “uncorrupted tribalism”. They also carry a set of cultural norms which are a complete and whole system. To learn more about systems thinking vs analysis please read the Fifth Discipline by Peter Senge. Also professor Russel Ackoff gives an excellent explanation of this.
The Euro dark ages was the end result of a civilization based upon authority and analysis. These civilizations can only end up in one way–complete destruction. And this is where we are today.
We are definitely in agreement on the issue of over simplification. This is what analytical thinking has done to us which was brought here by Euro and has been made the normal thinking of the world. With analysis we don’t see patterns or the connections between things and thus we do not see reality. We must shift our thinking away from the fragmented thinking of analysis and towards more holistic and complete thinking–synthesis, systems thinking and knowing from the heart.
Anon, Thank you for at least making reasonable points as opposed to most people here who seem to be just throwing out knee-jerk fear based reactions based upon their own self interest and greed.
Indigenous Native American
We Must ALL Return to the Indigenous Way
# monticup said on 17 Apr 2008 at 11:17 pm: Indig: You are not American Indians. You are Mesoamericans–Aztecs and Mayan. You’re trying to glom onto the American Indians/Native Americans because you see that as an easier avenue for the freebies you want.
Only fools make accusation about things which he has no personal knowledge. Do you know me personally. Do you know that I am from VA and my people have been here for at least 10,000 years.
In regards to people from below the fake border not being Native American I have completely explained this above.
Please read and let go of fear and ignorance.
Indigenous Native American
INA I think you would be very interested in a book called
Guns, Germs and Steel. Also, do you know of the Iroquois Confederacy.
It’s an interesting story about how peace was brought.
Anon:
I heard of this book some years ago. Someone recommended it but I have not read it yet. Will definitely take a look. Yes, I have read some about the Iroquois Confederacy, plus I have worked with some of the people from Six Nations and Canada on some projects. Many of our people left VA and joined the Six Nations in the 1700’s. Things were really bad here going from 2,000,000 people to 600 people in less than 200 years, thus many had to leave.
Thanks
INA
Angry White Woman - I was prepared tune you out entirely based upon this astoundingly ignorant usage:
>> Angry White Woman said on 25 Mar 2008 at 7:47 pm:
- “I find it incredulous that this property has been condemned…”
I am a Canadian living and working here in the USA, VA and Prince William County to be precise. I am appalled that illegals presume to usurp authority based on evils of days gone by. What is, is. I’m here legally and have to put up with the abuse heaped upon me be ineffective border guards who despise me for having the correct paperwork. They despise me because I am in front of them and represent the thousands of illegals they can’t touch. I bear the brunt of the abuse because they can see me….I’m the face in front of them, not the 200 hanging out at 7-11 looking to steal my wallet, car or worse. (Check out 7-11 on Little River Turnpike in Fairfax County at 7:30-8:00am Monday thru Friday)
My thoughts? The USA being the most powerful nation on the earth…Is this because of the people? Well, an influx of educated people (aka European) given a virgin and untouched land mass with virtually unlimited resources as the Americas; How can you miss? Of course this is the most powerful nation on the planet! Is everyone too stupid to see this or what? America is not great because it is great, it is great because it has had the luxury of consuming or killing everything in it’s path. (Canada included!)
Borders and laws are a necessary evil and have been created by those in power since the beginning of time. Similarly, history is written by the victors (aka survivors), not the losers (aka dead guys). Politics and intrigue are a theme that should worry all living on this continent regardless of origin. We allow politicians manufactured by corporations to make decisions that affect us all and more importantly, we allow them to make these decisions with impunity and without accountability. This mindless, headless, soulless beast called Corporate USA is no longer “By the people, for the people” but rather a self involved mass of corporations keeping us afraid and locked up. Those not afraid are preoccupied with Nintendo, beer and football to notice what is really going on.
Our culture be it Canadian or the Caucasian American is made up of individuals too afraid to say hello to their neighbor for fear of what? We have been made aware of, and made afraid of almost everything on the planet. We hole up in our homes afraid that someone is coming to get us. These are fears of the guilty….fears of the unpunished. Perhaps we should repent? Perhaps we should come to terms with the fact that we are all just people? People are people, it does not matter who gave birth to you or where you reside.
Regardless of race, origin, color or creed, we all want health, happiness, and wellbeing for our families. Perhaps we should foster a culture of health, harmony, and love thy neighbor? Would a happy neighbor buy our guns? Charity begins at home so perhaps we should look within and resolve our own evils before condemning another nation of theirs?
So who do I have to kill to get a $1.00 gallon of gas?
PS - As long as one wall stands, it is a renovation and rezoning is not required.
It’s called speaking truth to ignorance, in this case your’s, it’ also known as also known as freedom of speech. But don’t worry it’s not your fault you’ve been duped by your govt into falling for it’s manifest destiny BS. Read some real US history and have a little compassion for your fellow humanity instead of displaying your sad little self in your dotty little “blog”
Thanks INA. That’s the best…a real Native using euro education and reasoning against the foreign newcomers. Hau kola, pilamaya…na wopi chi chi yelo. (For you European foreigners, that means: “Hello friend, thank you…and many big thanks to you). I am a descendant of the Saponi/Tutelo…the people who are from the virginia area…there is a rez there and the people are called the Haliwa Saponi…mixed with Saponis, Tutelos, Tuscaroras, and a few other Nations. Before being rounded up and forced into Fort Christiana “for our protection,” the lowest estimates of our population was at about 6,000 and within about 60 years or so, we were decimated to 2-300.
What INA is talking about, I believe, is the acknowledgment of that crime against humanity and how, although the living and breathing white people today may not be literally responsible for that, they have benefited from it…and continue to benefit from it. Also, by lacking to acknowledge that, you indirectly (and sometimes directly) perpetuate those crimes against humanity. Now, INA has explained it here already in a very clear and concise manner…but I wanted to add a little something. If the issue is immigration, how can a people who never took the time to follow our laws and customs expect another “foreign” people to follow the laws…especially, as it was so well stated, if the laws are unjust? How about making your own people accountable for what they do and have done?