Keep your calendar clear for the evening of Tuesday, June 5th. Details to follow.
Catholic Charities To Host Seminar For Illegal Aliens
By Greg L | 9 April 2008 | Illegal Aliens, Prince William County | 70 Comments
Want to know what your donations to Catholic Charities are being used for? Well, here you go:
It’s quite understandable for the Catholic Church to try to relieve suffering and help the poor, and if this is all that was about, this kind of program would be utterly unremarkable. What isn’t so understandable is how Catholic Charities can ignore Biblical instructions for Christians to not support the sinful behavior that makes such seminars necessary. Had these illegal aliens not broken the law in the first place, strategies for avoiding the consequences of their unlawful behavior and contingencies for dealing with these consequences would be entirely unnecessary.
If anyone has information on how many seminars Catholic Charities has hosted in Mexico to advise illegal aliens there about their rights, I’d be grateful to find out. If Catholic Charities is concerned about the rights of illegal aliens in the United States, I’m sure they must been active in support of immigrant rights in other countries. Getting the global context here might help explain this somewhat difficult to understand behavior.
Some segments of the Catholic Church appear to be under the impression that federal immigration laws are contrary to God’s Law, and deserving of not only noncompliance but active efforts to undermine these laws. I don’t think they’ve made a persuasive case to support that conclusion, nor has the Catholic Church as a whole seemed to endorse it. This leads some of us looking in from the outside, who see these occasional departures from what would appear to be the core mission of the Church and it’s teachings, indicative that there’s a significant doctrinal problem that Catholics need to resolve. The non-cohesiveness on display here makes many of us wonder what the Catholic Church actually stands for, if it stands for much of anything at all. Whatever the Catholic Church decides it wants to stand for is fine, I just wish they’d make up their minds, establish a clear teaching for their flock, and stick to it.
Divinity and mixed messages just don’t go well together.
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Whether you agree with it or not on a political level, this is completely consistent with Catholic teaching.
I’m fairly sure Pope Benedict would agree.
Tax free…helping the tax free.
Not to be a nag, but Catholic Charities is largely (as in 60%) supported by the U.S. Government:
http://finance.google.com/finance?cid=1728044
Not exactly a Catholic conspiracy, but it does help to explain why all of their outreach has tended to be sooooo left-leaning.
No more donations to Catholic charities for me. As a catholic whose parish is Holy Family, I am absolutely disgusted by this. I am going to be writing to Fr. Planty telling him why I am switching parishes.
Not to be totally contrarian, but where does it say this is expressly for immigrants whose status is illegal? You’ve posted here before about the misconception (intentional and otherwise) that the PWC resolution impacts all immigrants (not just those who are here illegally). Given that there is confusion (again, some of it intentionally perpetrated) in the legal immigrant community, I would think you’d welcome informational sessions about immigrant rights and responsibilities.
I think, though, that it’s a bit of a theological stretch to say that breaking a law of man is a sin. Yes, some of our earthly laws do indeed mimic God’s laws, but that is not always the case. Sin, then, is acting counter to God’s law, not laws created by the BOCS, state government, or feds. “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, but render unto God, what is God’s.” Clearly, the laws of God and the laws of man are not synonymous. To proclaim such sets up our elected leaders as false gods.
Why would a legal alien be deported? Why would you need an emergency plan or fear being detained? Of course this is geared towards those individuals who are here illegally. Rather than leaving your parish I suggest you start contacting your parishoners and have them contact Father Planty. By being silent or leaving you are allowing this type of behavior to continue. Or better yet, attend the meeting tonight and let them know how you feel about your church being used to stage this meeting, as well as your charitable contributions. How many kids will go hungry tonight because Hogar Hispano used their funds for this meeting?
Father Bob learned last summer that the All Saints parishoners will not tolerate having our church used for this kind of nonsense.
Turn PW Blue, there are several verses in the New Testament that clearly show we as Christians are supposed to comply with the laws of man, as you call them. You are quoting Jesus, but Peter and Paul also state this fact as well. There is no doubt we should feed and clothe the poor, but providing legal aid and immigration services falls outside the Gospel calling. This is the gospel of liberation theology, akin to what Reverend White preached in Obama’s church.
The Bishop’s Lenten Appeal also funds Hogar Hispano. I have not given to that effort in many years either. If you chose not to give, write a letter to the Bishop and copy your pastor so they know why you are not participating.
This business about confusion among the legal immigrant community is a bunch of garbage. The county policy has been published in all the newspapers and broadcast on the hundreds of AM Hispanic radio stations in the area. Our good police chief has met with virtually every special intrest group both here and outside the country. So, give me a break-the confusion excuse is a red herring.
This is also the parish that got rid of its Sunday evening mass and added another south american mass.
What I don’t understand is the following:
Supporters of Faisal Gill such as that Two Conservatives guy Charles Reichley claimed that it was okay for Gill and Gallinger to represent persons subject to pending deportation orders, because all Gill and Gallinger did was make sure that deportees knew their rights.
Fine. All the Catholic church is doing is making sure that immigrants know their rights.
The Gill supporters (e.g., Ken Cuccinelli) who pretended to oppose illegal immigration cannot have it both ways. They cannot say that it is okay if a lawyer helps people gain stays for their pending deportation orders, but it is wrong if a church does it.
There is no right to an attorney in deportation hearings. They are civil matters. Helping someone avoid deportation is the same activity whether one is Gill and Galllinger on the one hand or a church on the other.
This is the Church, my Church, delving into politics. It is fine to be a social safety net, but to establish a program that teachs how to evade and break federal law is crossing the line. I will raise this with my Bishop next week.
Nick: What makes you think any other parish is different?
All this is exactly why the Mrs. and I have discontinued any/all donations to ‘our’ Catholic church, All Saints.
When ASC had the meeting last year for MWB, et.al. They confirmed my suspicions that they were encouraging illegals to come and be here illegally.
Then, when I heard with my own ears, a priest tell all Latino parishioners to hurry and get all their people from their home countries to come to Manassas and they would be helped, financially and with legal assistance; well, that was more than enough to make me sorry I had supplied financial support for ASC for years.
We discontinued even our pledge from that point forward.
We still give, just no longer to the Catholic Church. This is very disturbing!
This is BIG business. Obviously much bigger than us little people.
Letters have been written to all those who may have cared in our diocese and we have never received any response. I guess they just do not care how we feel.
I agree, jfk&ArlMinority. As a traditional catholic, i am tired of the endless “social justice, seamless garment” claptrap of the hippie priests that are entrenched in almost all dioceses. I do give a token amt each sunday, but refuse to support their liberation theology or give to the BLA. I pulled my kids out of their schools where i was told (but didn’t believe until I experienced it) that the parish schools would “take my money from me and take the faith from my children.” Homeschooling was the best thing we ever did. It doesn’t do a lot of good to change parishes, but some are much worse than others. Thankfully, my young adult children learned to love their faith, take bishops’ directions into consideration, but use their God-given brains and right reason.
It’s tough to attend a church where you can’t trust what they tell you. I hope with some prayer you’ll find a solution that will provide for your spiritual growth, instead of having to deal with what sounds like something that undermines your faith.
I’m very thankful I don’t have to confront this sort of problem. Harboring legitimate feelings that my church was on the wrong track is something I’ve dealt with in the past, and it was a terrible experience.
I have heard that St. Elizabeth Ann Seton church doesn’t have that going on. I can’t vouch for that myself though, since I have been going to Holy Family since my childhood.
Oh boy, here we go again…
The Catholic church, mixing religious doctrine, with man-made political doctrine and calling that religious piety.
How many times in history has the Catholic church gone south on that man-made philosphy?
You would think they would just focus on getting people to communicate and build a direct relationship with God, instead of riding off into the sunset to fight another Crusade, embrace the Kings needs for power over the people using politics and law to control social behavior, declaring that all laws of man are also laws of God, but only if they follow very specific Catholic interpretations, such as praying the rosary, praying to mary, praying to Saints, declaring saints, paying knights to fight crusades for them so they can eridicate the world of all agnostic, nostic beliefs, muslim belifs, buddist beliefs, hindu beliefs, and beliefs that only the pope has the power to discern the truth in the bible, as mad-made doctrine, or God’s doctrine, that attendance at mass and repeated works will get you into heaven, and that all men must be protected from legal consequence, but only if they are a minority group, and that even the pope can be put into power by the Medici family as the most powerful and richest way to control commerce and business and people to do only what the church says to do, and if you don’t do exactly what the church says, you are a protestant, lutheran heathen that deserves to be put to death, or burned at the stake, unless you pray only in the Church of England, because that is the only church sanctioned by the english political government.
It’s amazing to me that they can focus on Christ at all.
I suppose they prefer to make sure criminals can continue to break the law, teach them how to best resist arrest, and teach them how to lie, cheat and steal their way into remaining a member of their parish, just because they likely all belong to the same ethnic group, interested only in taking care of their own, and not the legal poor who are most affected by it. Thier priorities are all wrong.
I do not think this type of “obligation keeper” religious practice to spread man-made doctrine by pretending it is God’s doctrine is what God wants people who should be focused on being loving, God focused liberator Christians, to do at all. The focus needs to be on the relationship with God, not on mans’ behavior and political charities.
When are you hate-loving religious people going to start focusing only on God and a relationship with God that harms no one. Protecting one person, that only harms another is not the greater good here.
Dan, I would encourage you to write another letter or make a phone call. It’s uncomfortable, I understand, but nothing will change until we are heard. I would recommend that all Catholics do the same thing; this is a timely issue that will resonate.
During the MRSA scare I had a frank conversation with the school principal at All Saints school. Our classrooms are used in the evenings and weekends to teach English to immigrants, as well as provide other services (not sure what, but I walked into the school one Sunday and someone was passing out forms with the county logo on them). I have issues with diseases and germs, given that most illegals have not been properly immunized (guess that makes me a racist, right?). So now, we don’t have a school anymore, we have a religious education center. That gives Hogar Hispano and whoever else that wants to use the school building every right to do so.
Anon, it’s really ok ultimately, because we believe in the priesthood, not putting our faith in a priest, and it turned out to be a blessing to get back to the core beliefs. And it is not compulsory to follow the bishops’ strange programs/ideas. Makes us appreciate all the more the priests who are committed to the 7 sacraments (not the highjacked lib theo).
sorry, the above was for anon. @ 8:24 pm.
Churches that defy the law by giving sanctuary to illegal aliens, should be denied tax exemption.
Sanctuary cities should be denied Federal funds.
There are two types of religious people, those that hate and take political action, and those that love and take none. Which do you think most represents the philosophy of Christ, and the doctrine of God? Which church in history has been the most polically active and the most destructive and oppressive to mankind?
Well said, Michael!
Both comments, well said, Michael.
Actually there’s nothing to get up in arms about, the flyer says nothing about the Immigrants being Illegal, I Know plenty of Legal Immigrants who are jittery from all of the stir, These seminars are just calming down some scared folks, nothing to make a big deal over
I have to disagree here. Why would someone with legal status be concerned about deportation?
Micahel,
I don’t know if my comment will come through but I have the SAME question.
# Michael said on 9 Apr 2008 at 9:19 pm:
There are two types of religious people, those that hate and take political action, and those that love and take none. Which do you think most represents the philosophy of Christ, and the doctrine of God? Which church in history has been the most polically active and the most destructive and oppressive to mankind?
“”"I have to disagree here. Why would someone with legal status be concerned about deportation?”"”
An excellent point. That is why politician/attorneys who file for stays of deportation for their clients are helping illegal immigrants. As this particular church may be also.
But why is it wrong for a church to help illegal immigrants avoid deportation, but okay for political candidates to do it?
At least the church doesn’t claim to be getting tough on illegal immigrants. Yet those who tried to put Gill and Gallinger attorney Faisal Gill over (Stewart and Cuccinelli in particular) do make that claim about themselves.
It is hypocritical to claim to be getting tough on illegal immigrants, and then push the candidacy of those who represent illegal immigrants seeking stays of deportation.
Again, why is it okay for Faisal Gill’s Gill and Gallinger law firm to help illegal immigrants avoid deportation, but wrong for a church to do it? Why?
People attacked Jeanette Rishell for her involvement with a church that helped illegal immigrants, and it was probably appropriate to do so. But why not also attack Ken Cuccinelli and Corey Stewart for their involvement with the principal of a law firm (Gill and Gallinger) that helped illegal immigrants get stays of deportation?
I think that Stewart and Cuccinelli are playing the faithful for chumps on this issue. There is no way that someone who was serious about removing illegal aliens would propose for HOD-51 a candidate who helps them stay.
Stewart is not going anywhere, but Cuccinelli is seeking to to become AG. He betrayed the public (and Julie Lucas) on the Gill matter, and Cuccinelli would betray again if he ever made it to the AGs office.
It’s just the politics of religion. The Catholic Church has long been losing ground on a number of fronts. Its historic base in many large cities have been migrating to the suburbs for years leaving the chapel AND the collection plate desperately low on members and cash. The modern suburbs are struggling not with a cash issue but issues of faith and doctrine. The Catholics from South America tend to have a more traditional practice of their faith, and there are a lot of them. This pleases the Vatican. On another note, some have rumored that the increased presence is to assist in the opposition to the ever growing push from the Muslim world. Just a rumor mind you.
Jonathan, as you probably know, I agree with you in large part. However, I’d like to make two points:
Point 1) All criminals are entitled to legal representation and if Gill and Gallinger didn’t provide it, someone else would.
Point 2) Politics is made up of men and women who “live on” deals, agreements, and behind the scenes arm-twisting; it’s an ugly business. I don’t like it, none of us do, but we’re not about to stop it.
When it comes time to vote, rarely will any of us agree with any candidate on every issue. Therefore each of us must support the person with whom we disagree least and trust most. Sad, huh?
TELL IT TO THE POPE !!!
He’ll be here soon.
In fact, some legal immigrants do get called into deportation hearings. Sometimes, this happens because of mistakes. Guess what: our government makes mistakes. Lots of them. This happened to a friend of mine who had entered the county legally and who had never overstayed a visa or done anything wrong. Of course, he was never detained and he showed up at his hearing as instructed and the matter was promptly resolved. Again, he entered the country legally, always had a valid visa, and was in green card processing at the time he was called. Fortunately, for him, the first thing he did was learn to speak proper English and he was able to assist his attorney. It was basically a paperwork snafu, as I recall. Soon, he will be a US citizen.
Catholic Charities may have crossed the line a bit here in my opinion. I’d rather they spent my donations to feed and clothe people and not delve into controversy. I do think it is right and just for a church to provide aid to those who need it, without asking questions. Of course, as long as they are telling people their rights at this seminar and not counseling them to break the law (or break the law further), that is probably okay. Hey, someone who belongs to that parish ought to go and listen and report back to the blog!
“”"Jonathan, as you probably know, I agree with you in large part. However, I’d like to make two points:
Point 1) All criminals are entitled to legal representation and if Gill and Gallinger didn’t provide it, someone else would.”"”
First of all, there is no right to counsel in a deportation hearing, or in any other CIVIL matter. If you cannot afford counsel in a deportation hearing one will NOT be provided to you.
Providing assistance to persons seeking to avoid deportation is the same whether a church does it or a lawyer does it. Both activities are voluntary.
Perhaps the church was providing its information to persons who could not afford attorneys. Is that the difference? It’s okay to help illegal aliens remain in the USA as long as the illegal alien pays for the assistance?
Since it is wrong for a church to help illegal aliens remain in the USA, it is wrong for politician/attorneys to do it. And those who endorse such politician/attorneys, such as Ken Cuccinelli and Corey Stewart’s endorsement of Gill and Gallinger’s Faisal Gill, have undercut their credentials as opponents of illegal aliens.
Cuccinelli and Stewart oppose illegal aliens except when they (wrongly) think is in their interest to support those who support them.
“”"”Point 2) Politics is made up of men and women who “live on” deals, agreements, and behind the scenes arm-twisting; it’s an ugly business. I don’t like it, none of us do, but we’re not about to stop it.”"”
We could stop it if we hold the pols accountable for their wrongful acts. In the case of Cuccinelli he will have opponents both in a primary and in the general election.
Why him? Seven million people in VA, many thousands of Republican attorneys, and we need this Faisal Gill endorser and M. Yaqub Mirza/Safa Group contribution accepter in the AGs office?
No, we don’t. In fact it will be a horrible tragedy if someone with Cuccinelli’s unsavory associations with Gill and M. Yaqub Mirza/Safa Group were in the AGs office.
Cuccinelli will be taking calls from his contributors, and from Gill and Gallinger. In the AGs office.
No way.
“”"Of course, as long as they are telling people their rights at this seminar and not counseling them to break the law (or break the law further), that is probably okay.”"”
If it is okay for attorneys to do it, then it is okay for churches. Deportation is a civil matter. There is no right to an attorney in deportation hearings. An attorney who voluntarily helps an illegal alien in a deportation hearing is the same as a church which does the same thing.
The biggest difference that I can see is that the church provides its services to those who cannot afford attorneys.
Is that the difference? If the church starts charging the illegal aliens to help them, like Gill and Gallinger does, is that then okay?
Anonymous said on 9 Apr 2008 at 5:41 pm:
This is also the parish that got rid of its Sunday evening mass and added another south american mass.
Why? Because they will not assimilate with the rest of the parish. It is the same in the other Catholic churches (of which I am a member.) Cut off the Spanish language masses and see how many of them will attend an English speaking mass. I spent many years overseas and was not offered to attend a mass in my language (ENGLISH.)
well no jonathan, as I see it, there is a greater difference.
People contribute money to Catholic Charities with a generalized assumption as to what that money will be used for, helping to feed and clothe people. I suspect that few of those contributors expect their money to be spent counseling those who have violated federal law on how to remain here as illegal aliens.
Few people contribute to Gill and Gallinger out of the goodness of their heart, expecting that their money will be used to help feed and clothe people; it’s usually in an effort to protect their own skin.
PWConservative said on 9 Apr 2008 at 9:57 pm:
Actually there’s nothing to get up in arms about, the flyer says nothing about the Immigrants being Illegal, I Know plenty of Legal Immigrants who are jittery from all of the stir, These seminars are just calming down some scared folks, nothing to make a big deal over
How many time and how often do they need to be calmed down. Is this a perpetual need? THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR BUT FEAR ITSELF!
Michael, your 8:58 post was quite a smear on Catholics and the Catholic church. Your comments show much ignorance as to what Catholics believe and how we worship.
First, Hogar Hispano and Catholic Charities are but one of many relief organizations that US Catholics sponsor. The group does many good things; however they have strayed into the political realm, in my opinion. I oppose what they are doing here and I do not contribute my offerings to them because of this type of behavior.
Michael, Catholics do not worship Mary or pray to her in the context that you imply. We believe that the saints in Heaven, including Mary, can intercede for us and we ask them to pray for us. This is no different than asking living people in your church to pray for you. Mary and the saints are not worshipped, but they are glorified as people who have lived a Christ-like life on Earth, and are good role models for us to follow. We worship only the Holy Trinity of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. If you have ever been to a Catholic mass, you would know that the entire service is Christ-centered, and revolves around receiving the body and blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. The celebration of this holy communion is mandated by Christ at the Last Supper, when he said to “do this in memory of me.”
I haven’t seen any knights lately, other than Elton John and Paul McCartney, so bringing up abuses from the Dark Ages is pretty weak. Also, the Medici family is not quite the political entity they used to be. I don’t think they have much involvement in selecting the Pope anymore.
Your other assertions are gratuitous, and are so abstract I am at a loss to argue against them. Catholics are actively eradicating muslims and buddists? Catholics are burning Lutherans at the stake?? You are all invited to attend mass with us any time. Please come, and see how we worship and what we believe in rather than holding on to these stereotypes and falsehoods. I think you will find that there is very little that separates Catholics from other Christians.
Here’s a little information that may suprise some of you; your Protestant churches are probably doing the same thing as Hogar Hispano. How many of your churches are also “eglasias”? I have noticed that many churches in the area sponsor Hispanic ministries. Are your pastors checking the legal status of these congregants before providing English classes or offering other aid? You might want to check into that before you throw any more stones.
jfk said on 10 Apr 2008 at 9:12 am:
Michael, your 8:58 post was quite a smear on Catholics and the Catholic church. Your comments show much ignorance as to what Catholics believe and how we worship.
WELL STATED!
“”"Few people contribute to Gill and Gallinger out of the goodness of their heart, expecting that their money will be used to help feed and clothe people; it’s usually in an effort to protect their own skin.”"”
Actually, people often pay Gill and Gallinger in an effort to remain in the US after residing here illegally. Cuccinelli’s endorsing a Gill and Gallinger attorney for HOD-51 was completely contrary to Cuccinelli’s rhetoric about getting tough on illegal immigrants.
If the Catholic church is going to delve into politics they should lose their tax exempt status. They should go to Mexico and help them in their own country.
They also should stop encouraging illegals to continue to break our immigration laws.They should read
Mark 12:17
Render to Caesar the things that are Ceasar’s And to God the things that are God’s
1st Peter 2:13
Submit yourself to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: Whether it be to the King as Supreme
Romans 13:1
Let every sole be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be ordained of God
They need to quit picking and choosing what to ignore in the bible. Obey our Laws . It’s in there
“Churches are supposed to help the poor and sick before they buy their jet planes. Yes, those people broke the law of the land, but that is not for the church to judge. It’s for God to judge.”
Catholic Charities USA is headquartered in Alexandria - Jim Moran’s “land” and last year proclaimed as safe sanctuary for “our international citizens.”
Catholic Charities USA
Sixty-Six Canal Center Plaza
Suite 600
Alexandria, VA 22314
(703) 549-1390
http://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org
————–
I sent an email to ask what steps had been taken by the church to advise Mexicans of their “rights” IN MEXICO. If someone does respond, I’m sure it will be one of those “all around the fence post” type of answers. Whatever the reply, I will be happy to share.
A Correctly Informed Resident said on 10 Apr 2008 at 11:19 am:
“Churches are supposed to help the poor and sick before they buy their jet planes. Yes, those people broke the law of the land, but that is not for the church to judge. It’s for God to judge.”
The USA has also passed judgement and has convicted them. All that remains is for the sentence to be carried out.
I see no problem with this. The rights of immigrants in the United States is a complex area of US law. Those who doubt that should read:
Graham v. Richardson, 403 U.S. 365 (1971).
Sugarman v. Dougall, 413 U.S. 634 (1973).
In re Griffiths, 413 U.S. 717 (1973).
Examining Board v. Flores de Otero, 426 U.S. 527 (1976).
Elrod v. Burns, 427 U.S. 347 (1976).
Nyquist v. Mauclet, 432 U.S. 1 (1977).
Providing advice to immigrants regarding their rights is a very reasonable service for a charity to provide.
I have worked (legally) in a number of foreign countries. In each case I was given a specific briefing as to what I should and should not do if I was detained by law enforcement officials in those countries. I was never arrested or detained. However, knowing what to do was a sensible precaution.
As for the Bible quoters - I assume you are all opposed to capital punishment. After all, a commandment that says, “Thou shalt not kill” seems pretty straight forward. Right?
I’m always suspicous of people who like to quote Scripture for their own purpose, as the devil himself is reputed to be quite good at that. That’s something we’ve all got to watch for. Providing a seminar to advise people of their rights is not necessarily delving into politics. Without sitting through the seminar, it’s hard to judge it based on a flyer. Someone definitely should go from that parish and post a report.
The Catholic Church does not advise illegals to break our immigration laws. If Hogar Hispanico (however you spell it) is “going there” as a charity, then someone who actually attends their seminar ought to tell us what was actually said. And if anything wrong is being said, you know how to contact the Bishop. I’ve met some people associated with Catholic Charities I thought were a bit out in left field, but I’ve overlooked that in individuals because they do a good job of feeding the hungry and helping the homeless and women in crisis pregnancy situations.
Michael, Catholics do not worship Mary nor do they worship the saints. Catholics worship God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Other older forms of Christianity than Protestantism, like Orthodoxy, also have a very special place for Mary and the saints. These are people who provide life examples to the faithful. Actually, conservative Anglicans and Episcopalians have a special place for Mary and the saints - and they are Protestant denominations.
Catholics may be unpopular with some (just as the Orthodox and other conservative, ancient churches may be unpopular with some) because they believe that what is taught in religion must be lived in the real world every day. You don’t get to live a Christian life for a couple hours on Sunday and forget about it, nor do you do whatever the heck you want to yourself or your fellow man and get to self-declare yourself “saved.” It’s not that easy. Church teaches a lot of things that are hard to accept when the world tells you otherwise. But true Christians of any stripe have always had that live in the world - be not of the world dichotomy.
Also, I don’t get too upset about Spanish services at anyone’s church. I think there are a couple of them at Catholic Churches around here. There are some at a Baptist church up the street as well. Just as there are Korean services at the local Catholic and Presbyterian churches. And Chinese ones, too. Hey, no one in my own family has set foot in Russia for well over a century (not since a decade before the Revolution), yet I still attend Liturgy in Russian, just as my ancestors did. I don’t know why, but to me, it’s tradition. It’s just what we do. I don’t want to deny others that.
jfk - great points!
What is an “international citizen”? Anyone have any general specifics on what that might mean?
[Ed note: international law defines a “stateless person” - one who is not considered the citizen of any state, and thus has no protection under international law. That’s about the only thing that seems to correlate here.]
There is a little explanation of liberation theology incidental to this Obama report: http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?RsrcID=2036 which may answer some questions.
“As for the Bible quoters - I assume you are all opposed to capital punishment. After all, a commandment that says, “Thou shalt not kill” seems pretty straight forward. Right?”
Or is it thou shalt not murder? Not so minor difference.
“Bible quoters”, Groveton??? You make that sound pejorative, as if knowing the Bible and using it as a guide for living a Christian life is somehow a bad thing. Probably not what you meant, but that’s how it comes across.
Unfortunately, I believe that all Christian churches have taken a lean to the left politically…I find that quite disturbing.
[Ed note: not quite all. I can invite to one that would be different…]
JFK, your words are just and make sense. My point was that the Catholic Chuch strayed into deep political wrong-doing in history. My references are truthful historical realities, regarding Catholic political oppression of mankind in its past, and will do so again in its future due to the organizational structure of it’s leadership and man-made doctrinal basis, not being firmly and entirely rooted in the bible. There are many man-made extensions, and quite a few of them have no direct biblical source, only historical source. I do not need to attend a mass, I have before, and to me it is mostly a ritualistic mindless process, that I have attended, understood enough to disagree with its purpose and conceptual meaning in all the “cases” you defend. You are certaintly entitled to this defense, I am entitled to point out it’s man-made doctrinal roots as very troublesome.
Beliefs are like that, they are subject to interpretation. I based my view on historical evidence of the Catholic philosophy, ACTIONS and doctrine, and its impact on other beliefs (include the impact that started all protestant churches in the first place, hundreds of millions of people cannot all be doctrinally wroing to leave this Church’s dogma. Their oppression record in history attests to their vulnerability to politically motivated wrong doing. The modern Catholic Church is not as bad as its historical predecessors, but is still too politically involved, and will suffer the same future as it has in the past.
In some cases the doctrine even breeds child abusers, in its highest organizational structures that are built a lot like a pious government instead of a church. As we all know, governments and government like religious structures are highly vulnerable to corruption and oppression. This government like hierarchy, even allows powerful commercial interests like the historical Medici family to put its own family members into power, and to assassinate them. This can also happen in the future just as easily, if the Catholic Church or any Church moves into more active political roles due to the anger and hatred carried by its members as they politically become active.
Politics and political activism is not where you seek and find Christ, that was my whole point of the criticism, not to personally offend any catholic membership, but to simply warn them to be aware of a dark and oppressive history awhere they went far astray many many times and will do so again.
JFK one essential thing I want to point out about prayer and entry into heaven. There are no “intermediaries”. The relationship, the prayer, and the emotional connection with Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God (the trinity) is “direct”. Anything else is man-made doctrine, if you get my main point you will then understand the 2nd covenant trumps all “works”.
The Catholic church is just hunting for members to replace those it lost due to its institutional acceptance of kiddie didling.
theres no GOOD reason they should be scared, but they are nevertheless
Theres plenty good reason for people to be scared. The resolution is inherently bigoted. It targets anyone who’s not white. ‘Probable Cause’ is just a euphemism. A bigoted police officer sitting on a corner watching 10 cars go by at 10 miles over the speed limit. Then he sees one driven by a young latino male pass by. He pulls him over specifically because he’s latino and uses speeding as the excuse. Any person who denies this happens, denies it because they pretty much support it. They bigots and liars. The same white people who cover up this bigotry are the same white people who rail against affirmative action. In other words, they believe that it’s ok to officially treat minorities as second class citizens…but when it happens to white people, thats wrong.
Anyone who denies that racial profiling takes place and is inherently racist is themselves a bigot. Racial profiling leads to abuse. White conservatives are especially the greatest hypocrites in this regard since they are supposed to be opposed to abuse by big government. But they’re only opposed when that abuse targets white people…as it does in affirmative action.
If yo go to www.policeabuse.com and watch the videos there, you’ll see that police officers will shamelessly violate the constitutional rights of minorities, even threatening them, beating them, and arresting them, out of what was just an ‘innocent traffic stop’
Greg L. -
My “bible quoters” remark probably didn’t come out right. As a practicing Catholic I have a love and respect for the bible. However, in my opinion, there are a lot of things written in the bible - written by different people at different times. In some cases there are conflicts. Therefore, I am always a bit nervous about taking one quote from the bible and using that quote as a broad and unassailable statement of Christ’s (or God’s)philosophy.
So, is it (as per Exodus 21:23-27):
“If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. ”
Or, from the King James Version of the Bible:
” Thou shalt not kill.” (Note: Other versions of the Bible use “murder” instead of “kill”. So, even the 10 commandments are not consistently quoted).
There are also a lot of misconceptions. For example, how many wise men came when the Christ was born? Answer-nobody knows. The number of wise men is not documented in the bible. Rather, there is a description of three gifts which has led some to assume that there were three wise men.
Also, where does it say, “God helps those that help themselves.”?
My appeal was for those who make sweeping statements based on very short bible references to reconsider. I think the books in the bible have to be taken as a whole, not quoted in small part.
Just my opinion. I know others have a different opinion.
The Bible is, in some ways, like statistics. If you know how, you can make it mean anything that YOU want it to mean.
Wow, Krutis, that is quite a statement of faith.
I’d expect there are lots of folks that would vehemently disagree with that statement, and I’d be one of them. There is remarkable consistency in the Bible, if you bother to take the time to understand what it says.
Michael, I also support your right to feel they way you do. However, I think you do fail to grasp the meaning of many of the things that take place during the mass, as well as the importance of tradition and scripture in the history of the early Catholic church. Our doctrine is not man made, but is in my belief the truest connection of the early Christian church that there is.
Any large organization will have issues relating to structure, and I think you can criticize any denomination for being more like a small government than a religious body. To say that the structure breeds child molesters is a cheap shot and unfair. Its been statistically proven that priests are much less likely to be pedophiles than the population at large, and that the few cases which occurred were widely publicized. This is an age old tactic the media uses to try and make a problem seem more widespread than it really is.
Catholics do not beleive in intermediaries. I assume you are referring to the practice of asking the saints and the Virgin Mother to intercede to God for us. Again, this is no different than asking a fellow living Christian to pray for you. Throughout the New Testament, the Apostle Paul exhorts the churches to pray for him and each other. I don’t see how you can find any fault with this practice. Do you attend worship services, or do you pray alone at home?
Dwell in the past if you wish, but you are mistaken in your interpretation of what Catholics believe. Come back to mass with an open mind and a willingness to learn, and you likely will leave a different opinion than the one you now have.
Greg - 10:53
How do you read “an eye for an eye….”? How do you read “turn the other cheek”? How do you read “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”? (something HSM doesn’t seem to think much of).
Some believe you have to get immersed in water to become a Christian. Some believe you only have to sprinkle water on a baby’s head. Some believe it’s immoral to dance (a former attorney general), go to the movies while watching TV is OK.
The Bible can be everything and anything to everybody and excuse just about any kind of behavior. Just pick the right part of it that suits your attitude in life.
“Go ye out an multiply”. Overpopulation in the So. American countries (Catholic anti birth control). Some in our current administration don’t want birth control education given in third world countries, the places that need it more than any others. ABSTINENCE good, CONDOMS not good.
Krutis,
I find it interesting that you refer to the passage that should help explain your first question, which is the only question that is actually biblical, and not a matter of some perhaps faulty interpretations.
“Eye for an eye” is from the old covenant religious law, documented in Exodus 21:23-25 and Leviticus 24:19-21. One of the purposes of these books, when you look at them a little more broadly, is to establish precepts of religious law. At that time, priests were the ones who would dispense justice, and these books contained a wide variety of instructions in the proper manner to conduct sacrifices, conduct worship, and adjudicate disputes. That was the structure of the “old covenant”, where you had to try really hard to follow a lot of laws, and hope God would forgive you for your inevitable failures, all the while being uncertain about what would ultimately happen.
The coming of Jesus was foretold as the establishment of a new covenant in several places, notably Jeremiah 31:31-34. Long before Jesus was born, prophets were foretelling that the Messiah would change all the rules, and that’s exactly what He did.
This new covenant is described in quite a few places, but the passage you refer to (Matthew 5:38-48) is perhaps one of the most stark descriptions of the dramatic change in the relationship between God and His people. We’re not required to follow the religious laws of old any more, but be part of a new relationship with God, a “new covenant”. It’s not required “eye for an eye” punishment any longer, but a deeper personal relationship with God where we’re told to turn the other cheek — which was a dramatic foretelling of the was Jesus would offer Himself up as a sacrifice for all our sins. The new covenant asks us to follow the example of Jesus as best we can, while knowing that we will be forgiven when we fall short, which we inevitably will.
Just picking a few pieces of the Scriptures and putting them up against each other is an easy way to get confused. Although it’s more work, trying to understand what these really mean and how all this fits together is where you really begin to appreciate just how amazing all of this is. Fortunately there are a lot of people out there who know the Bible well, and every one of them is nearly duty-bound to help you understand it. There is help out there.
I was taught in Catholic school the the “eye for an eye” scripture was an old testament Jewish law. I learned in Catholic school that much of the old testament and it’s laws were based in Jewish law, and the culture of Christianity rose out of Judaism/Islam. Mix in the cultures of Europe and Ireland and their Druid society/superstitions, the last vestiges of Roman religion, and some monks willing to encompass local gods and godesses into the doctrine of the catholic church. Poof…we have doctrine. But most that Catholics worship are past relics of non-Christian religions. Advent candles…pagan. Chalices…pagan. Incense…pagan. Altars..pagan. Robes…pagan. Kneeling…pagan. The entire Catholic mass ceremony reeks of Paganism (historically). And before you yell that I’m anti-catholic, I am Catholic. But the best lesson I ever learned was that God is not a Catholic, he is not a Baptist, an Episcopalin, Methodist or a Jew. God is simply God and He belongs to all of us.
Christianity predates Islam, so I don’t know how something could have sprung from a religion that did not exist. Incense comes from Judiasm, and is not based in pagan beliefs. So do altars, chalices, robes, and kneeling Advent candles were introduced by German Lutherans in the 19th century. I can’t believe you learned any of this in a Catholic school.
Catholicism is a religion you choose, its not a birthright or an ethnic class.
Lutherans were alive and well in the 1500’s in England (ie Cromwell and Ann Boelyn). Incense, altars, robes, et al were in existence with the Romans far before the reformist attitudes of the protestants/lutherans who entered the deep Catholic realms of Europe. Judaism and Islam coexisted before Jesus and Christianity. Heck I’ve looked at the artifacts in the British museum.
Sorry jfk…Islam and Judaism both predate Christianity.
Actually, while Judaism predates Christianity, Islam was founded more than five hundred years later. The Koran actually mentions Jesus.
ateacher said on 11 Apr 2008 at 8:47 pm:
I was taught in Catholic school
Apparently you slept through most of the classes or were smoking something to come out with such innacurate drivel.
“I have to disagree here. Why would someone with legal status be concerned about deportation?”
Because everyone is judged on appearance. It’s why black folks and Latinos are pulled over on the side of the road more often than whites (I kept stats for a month as I drove around - that was enlightening.) It is why some assume fat equals stupid or effete equals gay. We are all judged on our external appearance.
That is why a Latino who is here legally is going to worry - they are going to have to endure more questions at traffic stops and more scrutiny when they apply for employment because of their ethnic appearance. Does that mean that these elements of Rule of Law need to be abandoned to stem the flow of illegal immigration? That we shouldn’t enforce federal law for fear of offending someone? No. But don’t pretend for one second that is not going to have a negative impact on those who are here legally. It does.
Sounds like you conducted a very detailed study. How much gas did you use driving around for one month looking at police stop drivers?
The cross was a pagan symbol too once.
My point is that altars and the items used by Catholics come from Judaism, rather than pagan religions. Pagans utilized many of these things in their worship too, but that is not the source for Christian worship.
Also, I wasn’t saying that the Lutheran denomination came about in the 1800’s, but that the practice of using advent candles began with Lutherans in the 1800s.
jfk - when I actually kept count while commuting to and from work, I had white drivers stopped 15% of the time, the rest divided unevenly between blacks and Latinos. Hardly detailed or scientific, but somewhat enlightening nonetheless. What - you don’t think racial profiling exist? Or do you think it is inaccurate?