Driving liberals, dhimmis and illegal alien apologists absolutely insane since 2005...

It’s Show Time, Again

By Greg L | 29 April 2008 | Prince William County | 183 Comments

Once more citizens are required to descend on their elected officials in order to get them to do what common sense would demand they do.  Once more citizens have to closely babysit their government to prevent it from departing from their clearly and consistently stated will.  It shouldn’t be so difficult to get elected officials to do the job they promised us they would do, but in today’s political environment it seems frustratingly common that citizens have to maintain close tabs on their elected officials.

Today’s editorial in the Washington Times succinctly lays out what shouldn’t require hours of discussion today, but certainly will:

And it is working. Illegal immigrants are leaving Prince William County in particular, and Virginia in general. Already, the county’s public schools have reported a huge decline in students registered in English as a second language courses. So, it’s strange that Mr. Principi would be so adamant in rejecting the crackdown. It’s cheap, popular and effective.

Citizens time is at 2:00PM at the McCoart Center, and you need to be there.  Don’t go wobbly on us, supervisors.



The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.

BVBL is not a charity and your support is not tax-deductible.

You can follow the discussion through the Comments feed. You can also pingback or trackback from your own site.

183 Comments

  1. Dennis D said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:38 am:
    Flag comment

    I would suggest that maintaining surveillance on your elected officials is important for two reasons. First, it keeps them focused on what their constituents want and second, it gives them the confidence to keep pushing the agenda that got them elected. There is nothing worse than not knowing what your supporters want.

    So don’t look at “baby sitting” as a chore… look at it as helping the office holder so he does not feel like George Armstrong Custer.

  2. Vigilant1 said on 29 Apr 2008 at 12:11 pm:
    Flag comment

    Yes, it is a sad state of affairs that one must keep constant tabs on our elected officials from the top down. It seems in today’s climate, politicians could care less about the concerns of the average American citizen and continue to pander to big business. An example are the two Texas senators who were adamantly opposed to illegal immigration. Their positions have now changed (for some unknown reason) and have “softened” on illegals.
    Unfortunately for us, they know what America wants and turn their heads and look the other way until the next election. Term limits would not be a bad thing. Keep Vigilant!

  3. KP said on 29 Apr 2008 at 12:13 pm:
    Flag comment

    I watched Channel 9 news last evening and there was someone (might have been from the school board) and he said that the reduction in ESL students were to save the county $6mil. Now I know I am no rocket scientist, but if $6mil reduction in ESL means that there will be a surplus then…maybe…the $6mil needed to bolster the crackdown could be funded from that?

  4. MdMan said on 29 Apr 2008 at 12:20 pm:
    Flag comment

    Is there a link where non PWC residents can watch?

  5. KP said on 29 Apr 2008 at 12:23 pm:
    Flag comment

    http://www.wusa9.com/rss/local_article.aspx?storyid=71138

    “(WUSA) —

    Prince William County Chairman Corey Stewart says the decrease in ESOL students has saved the county six million dollars. That, he says, is proof the new policies are working.”

  6. anon said on 29 Apr 2008 at 1:09 pm:
    Flag comment

    The resolution did produce savings just as everyone claimed it would, thank goodness. And the schools have at least been direct about the fact that the children transferred to other schools so the ‘anti’ people couldn’t keep making their outrageous claims that children were still here but hiding, too scared to go to school.

    However, that $6 million in savings doesn’t mean we have $6 million to spend on something else. The schools would have had to come up with budget cuts anyway due to the revenue shortage. The resolution effect of declining ESOL enrollment just made the budget cuts a heck of alot easier. Now they won’t have to cut as much from other areas, although they will still have to cut to make the numbers work.

    So you can thank the resolution when your school is able to fund programs next year in other areas. Without it, those programs might have been cut completely. The numbers could be even higher than the schools have released. That data was as of the end of March….who knows how many more have left the system or since people typically move over the summer, how many more disenrollments will occur over the summer? I hope the numbers are shock and awe as far as proof that the resolution is working and paying for itself in the long term.

  7. Mando said on 29 Apr 2008 at 1:30 pm:
    Flag comment

    I know of an illegal alien that recently got fired from his construction job of 10 years. My guess is that these construction companies are getting scared. GOOD!

    Thanks Greg and keep the pressure up! I’d be there but I have to work. If it’s still going on by the time I get home, I’ll try and swing out there.

  8. KP said on 29 Apr 2008 at 1:43 pm:
    Flag comment

    anon,
    Thanks for the clarification. I just hope that the PWC officials can view this (as well as other positive crackdown results) in a positive light and consider that when making policy with the minority who are opposed to prohibiting any illegal immigration issues and listen to the people they are supposed to represent.

  9. Mando said on 29 Apr 2008 at 2:04 pm:
    Flag comment

    Anybody watching or listening?

  10. Purple said on 29 Apr 2008 at 2:14 pm:
    Flag comment

    I’m listening

    http://www.pwcgov.org/default.aspx?topic=01001600142

  11. ProudVirginiaCitizen said on 29 Apr 2008 at 2:43 pm:
    Flag comment

    Anyone listening hearing only audio that sounds like Alvin & the Chipmunks?

  12. Purple said on 29 Apr 2008 at 2:58 pm:
    Flag comment

    My audio sounds fine (at the link I provided above).

  13. TDB said on 29 Apr 2008 at 3:48 pm:
    Flag comment

    Charlie Dean says it will cost ~3 million dollars for the cameras. How many cameras does he need? I found out that the cameras cost 3,000 dollars each.

    http://www.martelelectronics.com/mde.html?gclid=CPS1v4WDgZMCFRCCGgodrC6fGA

  14. anon said on 29 Apr 2008 at 3:58 pm:
    Flag comment

    I just heard the Prince william Youth Center Group Home speaker begging for funding to be restored (which according to Chairman Stewart was never taken away).

    What I found odd was that she started out saying crime in general and juvenile criminal and gang activity have increased ‘exponentially” in the last few years. What?!?!?! I thought Charlie Deane just made a big deal of how crime has gone down, down, down and that the increase of illegal immigrants in our community over the past few years brought absolutely no increase in crime. Which is it? Has crime increased as stated by the Group Home employee who has seen as increased need for her services due to increased crime.

    Which is it, Chief Deane?

  15. Gainesville Resident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:02 pm:
    Flag comment

    How do we get rid of Chief Deane? Pardon my ignorance but how did we get a nutcase like him in there running things?

  16. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:20 pm:
    Flag comment

    oh my gosh, someone give this guy a chill pill - he sounds like he’s going to have a heart attack.

  17. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:22 pm:
    Flag comment

    Nancy Lyall will be speaking soon -

  18. Anonguy said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:24 pm:
    Flag comment

    “Nancy Lyall will be speaking soon ”

    Oh, this should be good. Wonder if she’s going to blame NAFTA.

  19. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:25 pm:
    Flag comment

    I’m having a hard time listening to her - it is painful

  20. Anonguy said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:25 pm:
    Flag comment

    Nancy claims that “natvists” bullied the board into voting for the resolution.

  21. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:26 pm:
    Flag comment

    oh my gosh - she needs a check-up from the neck-up

  22. Anonguy said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:26 pm:
    Flag comment

    She’s claiming that it was a “spam” attack that generated all of the emails in favor of the resolution.

  23. Anonguy said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:27 pm:
    Flag comment

    Oh jeez. She never changes her tune. Racist, kkk, bigotry, blah blah blah.

  24. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:28 pm:
    Flag comment

    she is so gone….there’s no saving her.
    The more she talks, the more ignorant she sounds

    and she won’t shut up - the buzzer rang - drag her outta there!

  25. Mando said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:32 pm:
    Flag comment

    So I’m spam now?

  26. Mando said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:34 pm:
    Flag comment

    I should’ve left early today to speak… Damn! Why is it that the working schmuck always gets the shaft?

  27. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:37 pm:
    Flag comment

    because you are a RESPONSIBLE citizen who works, PAYS TAXES, and lives by the rule of law……
    I wish I could be there too.

  28. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:37 pm:
    Flag comment

    I really like the last guy who spoke before this woman - he is married to an immigrant who did things the RIGHT way! he was powerful!

  29. Riley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:48 pm:
    Flag comment

    Gainesville Resident — I agree that Chief Deane has to go. It is inexcusable that our police officers have gone this long without cameras and he only thinks they are necessary to defend against civil rights lawsuits.

    I’m sure he is also intrigued by that new fangled Internet thingy.

    He has also created an atmosphere within the police department that encourages officers to let things slide. Here is a message I just got today from a resident of my community:

    I recall a little more than a year ago, I called the PWC Police to
    complain about the ‘pocket motorcycles’ my neighbor was riding up and
    down the street….he literally had a fleet of 5 or 6 of these. They
    also had a case of beer out the day they were riding.

    When the police officer came (Officer Jackson)….I couldn’t hear the
    coversation, but they were all laughing, like someone told a joke or
    something, the officer inlcuded.

    Then the office left, and the riding continued.

    I called the Dept. back, to complain about the response/lack of…and
    then the officer involved called me back and asked if I had a problem
    with the way he handled the situation. I told him the community has an
    agreement with PWC Police Dept to ticket/arrest on site (and never mind
    the case of beer while riding situtation)….and he said they were all
    licensed and legal. I guess he couldn’t smell the alcohol. Who
    knows….

    It could go on and on….

    I’ve got at least another dozen similar stories to this one. This morning, our HOA management office received a call from a resident complaining about speeding in the neighborhood by a particular resident. Turns out, the police dept. told this person to call their HOA about it.

    Our community has had so many problems with police responsiveness that we’ve had to hire a private patrol service to pick up the slack.

    There are two problem officials in the county — Chief Deane and County Exec. Craig Gerhart. Both need to go and I don’t think you can get rid of Deane without first getting rid of Gerhart who seems to be better suited for Montgomery County, MD from where he came.

  30. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:50 pm:
    Flag comment

    I think Greg is up next.

  31. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 5:02 pm:
    Flag comment

    That one lady tore Principi a new one.

  32. Judy T. said on 29 Apr 2008 at 5:12 pm:
    Flag comment

    Will there be an evening citizen comment period. I wanted to attend today — but I need to work to pay my taxes.

  33. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 5:21 pm:
    Flag comment

    who is this guy? a little “monotone” I’d say ……..

  34. El Lobo said on 29 Apr 2008 at 5:38 pm:
    Flag comment

    Where’s Ricky Juarez and all the busloads of clowns that were at the BOCS meeting last October? I guess he’s rounding up all of his commie friends for the Mayfest on Thursday.

  35. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 5:41 pm:
    Flag comment

    they are busy inundating Springfield, Arlington, Fairfax, etc.

  36. legal2 said on 29 Apr 2008 at 5:49 pm:
    Flag comment

    poor anabel, all the conflict resolution models she was indoctrinated with in school, don’t serve her well in the real world. she had all the buzzwords, but no substance. yay!

  37. legal2 said on 29 Apr 2008 at 5:50 pm:
    Flag comment

    the above is in response to her speech at the bocs just now.

  38. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 5:53 pm:
    Flag comment

    bob duecaster is doing a great job!

  39. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 5:54 pm:
    Flag comment

    The dude that followed her sounded like he was going to fall apart. Poor guy.

  40. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 5:54 pm:
    Flag comment

    legal 2 - I kept waiting for her to make her point - she finally did - she wants more talk…..more discussion…..in other words, do nothing!

  41. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 5:56 pm:
    Flag comment

    Judy T. said on 29 Apr 2008 at 5:12 pm:

    “Will there be an evening citizen comment period.”

    Don’t think so.

  42. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 6:13 pm:
    Flag comment

    They’re adjourned for a quick lunch. Time to make popcorn. :-)

  43. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 6:20 pm:
    Flag comment

    they’re back at it - but this woman is talking about the group homes. didn’t Corey Stewart say earlier that no vote to close them had taken place?

  44. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 6:40 pm:
    Flag comment

    maureen wood is coming up to speak.

  45. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 6:45 pm:
    Flag comment

    This woman must be a realtor suffering from the loss of business in “dealing” with the illegals out there.

  46. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 6:50 pm:
    Flag comment

    Go Maureen!

  47. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 6:52 pm:
    Flag comment

    She’s doing great!

  48. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 6:55 pm:
    Flag comment

    ok - put this “singing” woman away….

  49. Gainesville Resident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 6:56 pm:
    Flag comment

    This whole police camera thing is such a red herring. They should put that item into general police budget not tied to the resolution.

    Chief Deane must GO!

  50. legal2 said on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:12 pm:
    Flag comment

    Eric (9500Libel) Byler sounded like he’s guilty of age-ism. Now the problem is a generation gap? They are clueless.

  51. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:13 pm:
    Flag comment

    Bob Wills is on.

  52. manassasinsider said on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:29 pm:
    Flag comment

    I really wish we could get video as well. Then again I wouldnt be able to have so much fun imagining how some of these people look.. On both sides of the issue.

  53. A Reader said on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:31 pm:
    Flag comment

    Why are we having to listen to people from Montgomery and Alexandria?
    It’s sickening.

  54. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:34 pm:
    Flag comment

    manassasinsider said on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:29 pm:

    I really wish we could get video as well. Then again I wouldnt be able to have so much fun imagining how some of these people look.. On both sides of the issue.

    Got Comcast? Channel 23.

  55. Anonymous said on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:35 pm:
    Flag comment

    “I am a concerned citizen from alexandria.” “please recind the rule of law resolution.” “Its really mean and racist and yucky and racist and ugly and racist and evil.” Please recind it, please.”

    What the liberal from the peoples republic of alexandria didnt want to say was “our school budget is skyrocketing because of all the ESL kids moving up here from Prince William.”

  56. legal2 said on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:35 pm:
    Flag comment

    m-insider @ 7:29, if you have cable, you can hook it up to your computer and with the proper software, you can watch it or turn it into a disc.

  57. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:38 pm:
    Flag comment

    Last two speakers….

  58. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:42 pm:
    Flag comment

    Lafayette’s up…

  59. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:46 pm:
    Flag comment

    Citizen’s time is done..

  60. BattleCat said on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:49 pm:
    Flag comment

    How on Earth did that dude from Prince George’s county get up there? That was sickening. He’s got his own problems over there. Keep your nose out of our business.

  61. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:00 pm:
    Flag comment

    BattleCat said on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:49 pm:

    How on Earth did that dude from Prince George’s county get up there?

    I thought he said he lives in PG County but works in PWC. So I guess he has a vested interested in what goes on here (slight sarcasm).

  62. Vigilant1 said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:01 pm:
    Flag comment

    BattleCat said on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:49 pm:
    How on Earth did that dude from Prince George’s county get up there? That was sickening. He’s got his own problems over there. Keep your nose out of our business.

    Does Prince George’s county offer citizen time for PWC residents? IMHO citizens time for the PWCBOS meetings should be limited to citizens of PWC.

  63. A Reader said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:01 pm:
    Flag comment

    What was the feel of the crowd at the meeting? I just heard the audio. How large was the crowd?

  64. BattleCat said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:10 pm:
    Flag comment

    I’m sorry, did Principi have a resolution or not. He squeaked his answer out!

  65. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:15 pm:
    Flag comment

    Principi’s motion died.

  66. BattleCat said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:16 pm:
    Flag comment

    take that, Principi!

  67. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:16 pm:
    Flag comment

    adding… Principi was the only “aye” vote.

  68. Anonymous said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:17 pm:
    Flag comment

    Principi is a looser like his proposal!

  69. Mando said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:17 pm:
    Flag comment

    Motion fails!!!

  70. ProudVirginiaCitizen said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:17 pm:
    Flag comment

    HAHA! Thank you BOCS (minus Principi) for protecting the CITIZENS of the county!

  71. A Reader said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:18 pm:
    Flag comment

    Principi can be our special project. It will be fun to work to get him out of office.

  72. Mando said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:19 pm:
    Flag comment

    Send those emails out thanking the BOCS!

  73. Woodbridge saved by other Supervisors said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:19 pm:
    Flag comment

    Anybody know, do we have to wait four years to get rid of Principi?

  74. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:20 pm:
    Flag comment

    Congratulations, BOCS, for listening to, and protecting the citizens!

  75. Herndon Bob said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:22 pm:
    Flag comment

    Way to go Prince William County citizens. Isn’t democracy in action great?
    Our governor must have just had a kitten. At least he cannot run again.

  76. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:24 pm:
    Flag comment

    Curious. (and this is on the fly)… I thought they tried to add funding for the police cameras but the vote was a tie. A tie (with 9 voters)? Anyone catch the details?

  77. Long time resident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:24 pm:
    Flag comment

    A big THANK YOU to the BOCS for keeping the resolution! Principi has got to go!!!!

  78. VRC said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:26 pm:
    Flag comment

    Kudos to the TRUE representatives on the BOCS.

  79. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:29 pm:
    Flag comment

    Woodbridge saved by other Supervisors said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:19 pm:

    Anybody know, do we have to wait four years to get rid of Principi?

    Yes. Sorry.

  80. Judy T. said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:34 pm:
    Flag comment

    Okay –even though I missed the first half of American Idol — I went to the meeting and managed to be the last citizen to speak.

    I am willing to pay a little more in taxes just to get rid of all the illegals.

    I will tell you that the 20+ anchor baby with all the guns scared the hell out of me.

  81. A Reader said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:36 pm:
    Flag comment

    Maybe if he gets enough phone calls and e-mails Principi will reconsider his position. He didn’t speak with much conviction when he offered his proposal.

  82. es_la_ley said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:38 pm:
    Flag comment

    Judy T. said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:34 pm:

    I will tell you that the 20+ anchor baby with all the guns scared the hell out of me.

    Guns? Explain.

  83. Woodbridge saved by other Supervisors said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:38 pm:
    Flag comment

    His Mom wasn’t there to encourage him…

  84. A Reader said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:40 pm:
    Flag comment

    Judy T,
    Thanks for speaking. What did you mean by:

    I will tell you that the 20+ anchor baby with all the guns scared the hell out of me.

    I just heard the audio. What was going on?

  85. Good Time Chalie said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:41 pm:
    Flag comment

    Response to Anon at 3:58 p.m.

    The question you would like for Chief Deane to answer: Is crime up or down?
    My guess………he doesn’t know. Several years ago the PWCPD created a gang coordinator position. Reporting gang related crime had different reporting requirements for the coordinator to collect and analyze.

    Patrol personnel were required to photograph any gang graffiti they encountered, and the incident was then addressed on the daily rundown (activity report viewed internally by departmental personnel). The basic criminal incident report form also changed to include a box indicating if gang activity was associated with the incident.

    While my squad was working we got a report of several known gang members of 2 rival gangs riding around an area flashing gang signs at each other. I directed several squad members to flood the area and enforce any minor infraction possible in order to prevent the gang fight which was obviously about to occur.

    After stopping several gang suspect’s (confirmed by the department as documented gang members) the patrol members made arrests on various charges. The car loads of gang members (identified by the clothing they were wearing, and citizens calling dispatch) who witnessed arrests taking place then immediately left the scene. The result was that no gang shooting or stabbing occurred.

    I thought the officer’s who responded to this incident did a tremendous job. After our shift was over I put this incident in the rundown. The next day I came into work I received an E-mail from the Chief’s Office asking me to justify why I thought this incident was gang related, and why I found it necessary to address a gang incident in the daily rundown. My response included several reasons to include that it was a requirement of all supervisors to address such gang activity. When I asked my supervisor why this explaination was demanded I was told that Charlie Deane had included the BOCS with access to our rundowns, and had recently briefed them that gang related crime in Prince William was on the decline.

    What happened to the policy of photographing all gang related graffiti. It was rescinded because the cost of film had increased making this no longer feasible. And the department also has a unit which now addresses gang related crimes instead of just one analyst.

    If you ask me how I thought Deane planned on combating gangs in the future. I believe it depends on future headlines in local newspapers.

  86. Battlecat said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:44 pm:
    Flag comment

    Are they going to come back to 4A (Property Tax level?) I had to step away for a second

  87. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:45 pm:
    Flag comment

    Judy T - thanks for going and speaking!

  88. legal2 said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:48 pm:
    Flag comment

    my everlovin, patriot hubbie just brought me a glass of wine to celebrate - cheers to everyone!

  89. Wing nut said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:55 pm:
    Flag comment

    No cameras, 4/4 tie means the rule of law funding is………….

  90. El Lobo said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:00 pm:
    Flag comment

    Principi should meet with anti-bvbl crowd at Casa Blanca this week to have their pity party. Who the hell voted for him anyway?

  91. Emma said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:04 pm:
    Flag comment

    We’re popping a cork over here, too….

  92. Anonymous said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:08 pm:
    Flag comment

    Mando said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:19 pm:
    Send those emails out thanking the BOCS!

    DONE!

  93. Vigilant1 said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:10 pm:
    Flag comment

    Anonymous said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:08 pm:
    Mando said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:19 pm:
    Send those emails out thanking the BOCS!

    DONE!

    Was so excited about the outcome I forgot to sign above. lol

  94. Vigilant1 said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:12 pm:
    Flag comment

    Wing nut said on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:55 pm:
    No cameras, 4/4 tie means the rule of law funding is………….

    Cameras are not dead yet. A higher tax rate than what was earlier voted on may reserect them.

  95. Gainesville Resident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:15 pm:
    Flag comment

    So why is the audio/video still not working. Is it closed to the public now?

  96. me said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:29 pm:
    Flag comment

    I think there will be cameras. I dont think the camera issue is dead yet. Should we had them before….probably yes, do we really need them now….I believe that we do. I think they will come down with a slightly higher tax rate to fund them along wth a couple of smaller items.

  97. legal2 said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:33 pm:
    Flag comment

    I’d gladly pay more to fund this resolution. Pour me another glass of wine! I’ll send my thanks to the bocs tomorrow!

  98. Dave in PWC said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:42 pm:
    Flag comment

    Thank you to all who attended the meeting and spoke while I was stuck at work. Thank you all!!!

    Thanks BOCS members who voted down the effort to change the resolution.

  99. Bryanna said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:52 pm:
    Flag comment

    They took a 15 minute break and haven’t resumed and that was over an hour ago. Anyone know what is going on?

  100. Bryanna said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:52 pm:
    Flag comment

    They took a 15 minute break and haven’t resumed and that was over an hour ago. Anyone know what is going on?

  101. me said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:57 pm:
    Flag comment

    I over heard Principi telling a reporter in the Chambers while they were on there mini dinner break that he can not and will not support leaving the 500 officers or their families at risk of a lawsuit with out the cameras to back them up.

    I believe the County has funds available if they looked for places to cut with out having to raise taxes in order to fund the cameras (I strongly support the use of the cameras) however in the absence of concise direction on where to make the cuts from the budget, I am willing pay to keep the illegal immigration resolution intact and moving forward!

  102. Woodbridge saved by other Supervisors said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:58 pm:
    Flag comment

    If I had to guess what is going on behind that door I’d say it’s like that scene from Reservoir Dogs…you know, that scene…that scene where they are in a…Mexican standoff…

  103. anon said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:59 pm:
    Flag comment

    Did anyone happen to do a count of pro resolution county citizens vs anti resolution county citizens ?

    The big July vote was about 50/50 until I feel asleep tired of counting.

  104. Woodbridge saved by other Supervisors said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:02 pm:
    Flag comment

    me said on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:57 pm:
    I over heard Principi telling a reporter in the Chambers while they were on there mini dinner break that he can not and will not support leaving the 500 officers or their families at risk of a lawsuit with out the cameras to back them up.

    So then he votes against the motion to include the cameras? This guys playing games with everyones safety for his own political gain.

  105. starryflights said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:02 pm:
    Flag comment

    I would love to know what is going on, behind closed doors. DH said he saw some construction equipment in front of the burnt house showed at the meeting today. He is thinking that they will start rebuilding very soon. Did she know this before going in today? I have to wonder. The house that is falling down (showed also by this lady at the meeting today), court action is being forwarded on this house. Supposedly it is or was owned by someone living in Alexandria that was going through a messy divorce and this house was in the middle of it. I would rather have the empty houses (which are not all the result of fleeing illegal aliens, though many are), and crack down on illegal immigration now, while we still have a chance of winning. When PWC is cleaned up, legal residents and citizens will come and scoop up the house bargains, waiting to be had. Tomorrow will be a better day, when laws are enforced equally, among all those that reside here.

  106. anon said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:06 pm:
    Flag comment

    me:
    Principi doesn’t have to support it as long 5 others do support it, and I’m sure he will make it look like he tried to make a stand for rescinding. At least I can respect Principi for the fact that he never voted for it in the first place and therefore could make a suggestion to repeal part of it. Thank goodness he failed.

    I cannot and will not, however, forgive Nohe. He is a little man pandering to the wrong side of the issue. What the heck was he thinking! OF all the supervisors, it was Nohe who bragged to the papers that he was the one who crafted the compromise resolution in the first place and the next thing you know, he’s showing up at anti-resolution parties yucking it up with them.

    That man scares the hell out of me and we should be thankful that the NVTA was dissolved so he can’t be in charge of our transportation dollars.

  107. Wing Nut said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:09 pm:
    Flag comment

    Changes are afoot——-.97 and no cameras—–only check those arrested

  108. anon said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:11 pm:
    Flag comment

    But check every single person arrested, not just those with probable cause…everyone.

    I think this might work. No need for cameras if they ask everyone whose arrested. No need for worrying about probable cause because it will affect everyone.

    I hope they checked the legality of this. I don’t trust Ross Horton. I don’t want to go back and change everything because Horton was an idiot.

    It looks like everyone it coming along as a team!

  109. starryflights said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:15 pm:
    Flag comment

    Does arrested mean everyone stopped for running a red light and given a ticket? Or does arrested in this case mean hauled into the police station. I just want to be sure of want this exactly means.

  110. Woodbridge saved by other Supervisors said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:18 pm:
    Flag comment

    Chairman Stewart said every person arrested now will have their immigration status checked; not everyone arrested is taken to ADC, some are arrested and released. Before this, you would need “probable cause” to inquire as to their immigration status, that is no longer. He also said Officers retain the right to inquire as to your immigration status during any investigation such as a traffic stop.

    Wally is right, we still need the cameras for officer safety.

  111. Wing Nut said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:19 pm:
    Flag comment

    Miranda rights and detained — big difference from let me see your id during a traffic stop!

  112. Bryanna said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:19 pm:
    Flag comment

    It appears that the Rule of Law resolution just got gutted, and Principi got what he wanted. Police have no authority to address legal status. That is why the camera’s are no longer needed.

    What the heck just happened?

  113. starryflights said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:21 pm:
    Flag comment

    This is what I am worried about. What DID just happen??

  114. Bryanna said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:23 pm:
    Flag comment

    Anon…Nohe is a weezle.

    Watch Principi go public stating he rescinded the “probable cause” section of the resolution.

    .97 cents for what?

    Did they go in to closed session?

  115. starryflights said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:27 pm:
    Flag comment

    I think you have to be a lawyer to interpret what they say sometimes. This is so frustrating. Are they playing word games?

  116. Wing Nut said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:28 pm:
    Flag comment

    97 = no cameras, and no criminal alien unit

  117. Woodbridge saved by other Supervisors said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:30 pm:
    Flag comment

    Yep, bet on it. He’ll go public saying he got “probable cause” rescinded…two hrs. ago he was arguing that your immigration status shouldn’t be checked at all unless you go to the ADC, now everyone can be checked, everytime, at any officer’s discretion. Fine by me but, there goes Principi again, flip, flop…everyone watch now to ensure the P.D. doesn’t pass another secret G.O. restricting officers from checking immigration status of those investigated or in their custody…

  118. Vigilant1 said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:31 pm:
    Flag comment

    Confusing to say the very least. They voted to keep the resolution intact with only Principi voting no. Now it seems like something has been changed via a vis the police checking immigration status.

  119. madmom said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:32 pm:
    Flag comment

    There was a woman with her 2 kids, that tried to speak while telling her kids over and over again to shush. Her little daughter got on the mike at the end and I could have sworn she said something about guns. Did anyone catch what she said? I couldn’t quite hear in the lobby.

    Great turnout, crowd was about 3/4 resolution minded and 1/4 for the Senior Center and the Boys and Girls
    Group Homes. Not much drama, but a couple laughs here and there.

    Great job to those that spoke - I think the Board was
    listening (but Principi had his earplugs in obviously).
    Cheered here at home when I saw the vote.

    Thank you BOCS - you are the bomb!!

  120. Gainesville Resident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:35 pm:
    Flag comment

    Secret closed door meeting then they gut the resolution. Vote these bums out.

  121. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:36 pm:
    Flag comment

    and I already sent my thank you note…..

  122. Gainesville Resident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:36 pm:
    Flag comment

    All over 1 freakin penny. Ridiculous.

  123. starryflights said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:36 pm:
    Flag comment

    I am disappointed in Stewart and Stirrup for going along with this. What happened behind closed doors?

  124. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:37 pm:
    Flag comment

    Where’s Advocator when we need him?

  125. madmom said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:37 pm:
    Flag comment

    Ari Stotle said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:19 pm:
    It appears that the Rule of Law resolution just got gutted, and Principi got what he wanted. Police have no authority to address legal status. That is why the camera’s are no longer needed.

    What the heck just happened?

    ————————————————
    Ari Stotle: Principi offered his Resolution to stop the probable cause section of the Rule of Law. Supervisors voted on it….all but Principi voted AGAINST. Resolution died. Done. Thank God.

  126. starryflights said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:38 pm:
    Flag comment

    That’s what I was wondering? Advocator are you out there?

  127. Woodbridge saved by other Supervisors said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:40 pm:
    Flag comment

    The CAU was a farce from the start, a money grab, all aliens are criminals and now all cops can inquire as to everyone’s immigration status. Now remember, it is your responsibility as a citizen to have identification on yourself at all times, if nothing else for your family so if you are injured your n.o.k. can be notified, but if you forget and they detain you until someone can come confirm you are a citizen or have a legal immigration status, don’t start complaining. Yep, it’ll suck, but as Royce said tonight every little bit keeps terrorist from flying airplanes into our buildings. Stay vigilante in our security and do your part to help our officers.

  128. starryflights said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:41 pm:
    Flag comment

    Madmom, when they came back for closed session and voted on the 97 cent increase, I missed the first minute or so of what was said. When I turned the sound up, Stewart was talking about all those arrested would have their immigration status checked. Well, that means those that are stopped by police for any other reason would not. Someone else said the additional police officers went missing along with the cameras.

  129. starryflights said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:41 pm:
    Flag comment

    Should be when they came back FROM closed session.

  130. Gainesville Resident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:42 pm:
    Flag comment

    So is this stronger or weaker. I can’t figure it out.

  131. starryflights said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:43 pm:
    Flag comment

    Join the club.

  132. Woodbridge saved by other Supervisors said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:44 pm:
    Flag comment

    Well, Gainesville Resident, now that every illegal alien and every other criminal knows they can take a shot (as in fatal) at our cops and get away because the Chief of Police, County Attorney and Principi brought the fact they don’t have cameras into public debate, it is hard for me to decide.

  133. Maureen Wood said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:45 pm:
    Flag comment

    Just talked to Greg and as far as he can tell this looks like a pretty good victory for us. He will give an update as soon as he can. He’s not home yet.

  134. manassascityresident said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:46 pm:
    Flag comment

    thank you, Maureen!

  135. starryflights said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:46 pm:
    Flag comment

    I look forward to it. Thank you

  136. Maureen Wood said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:48 pm:
    Flag comment

    BTW- the rough count is:
    PRO-resolution-54
    ANTI-resolution-29
    Thanks to all of you that made it down to the BOCS meeting today. It’s just amazing when citizens come together for a great cause. Thank you to everyone that phoned, faxed and emailed the BOCS. We need to find out whats up with Nohe though.

  137. BattleCat said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:50 pm:
    Flag comment

    Looks to me like the bottom line is the resolution is not fully funded, period. Maybe it’s not that bad a deal, if illegals keep moving away (I still think a little enforcement goes a long way). I’ll need some help believing this is a victory, though. We’ll see.

  138. Patty said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:50 pm:
    Flag comment

    If I’m not mistaken, checking everyone’s status was in the original resolution that Supervisor Stirrup presented in July. This would prevent law suits because everyone would be treated the same. That said, I do wish they would install cameras for the safety of the officers but we may still get that when the grant from the Federal Government comes through. I’m sure Greg will have an update when he gets back. I do think that when everyone voted against Principi’s resolution that sent a signal that they were committed to the resolution.

  139. Maureen Wood said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:55 pm:
    Flag comment

    Patty you are right on the mark. The original resolution did require police to ask EVERYONE immigration status. They said that that would be to time consuming. So we seem to be back where it all began. But we’ll have to wait and see for sure.

  140. Maureen Wood said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:57 pm:
    Flag comment

    Off to bed. Have an early 5:15 wake-up.

  141. Patty said on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:57 pm:
    Flag comment

    Maureen,

    I read in the paper where e-mails, phone calls and faxes from supporters of the Rule of Law resolution outnumbered the anti group 10 to 1. That’s impressive.

  142. Maureen Wood said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:00 pm:
    Flag comment

    But the antibvbl crowd says they don’t count. NumbersUSA sent out an alert to the members of Prince William County and thats not playing fair! No pun intended.

  143. AWCheney said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:01 pm:
    Flag comment

    Five minutes Googling “police car cameras, Federal grants” came up with information of billions of dollars in grant money that has been received, and is still available, to local police forces through the COPS Program at DOJ. Prince William County could have had those cameras already had Chief Deane been going after those grants. Our Board of Supervisors knows that now as well. Don’t count those cameras out yet.

  144. Maureen Wood said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:02 pm:
    Flag comment

    AWCheney- It was good to see you today.

  145. Maureen Wood said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:03 pm:
    Flag comment

    BED! I’m going to bed!

  146. AWCheney said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:05 pm:
    Flag comment

    Good to see you as well Maureen!

  147. Woodbridge saved by other Supervisors said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:07 pm:
    Flag comment

    The IAOCP report Chairman Stewart referenced has been out since 2005 with the number 1 rationale for providing in-cruiser cameras as “officer safety.” The report explains how to put together an acquisition strategy combining grants and public funding to get your cars fully equipped. Deane’s been worried about law suits alright, law suits from FOIA requests for video where loiterers are investigated on a complaint call, don’t speak English, don’t have i.d. and are released. Now he wants to play the other side. Bottom line, officer safety has been put at risk for political motives and it’s still being played. Three Democrats passed up a chance to raise taxes tonight (which happened to include the cameras)? Something is stinky.

  148. AWCheney said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:36 pm:
    Flag comment

    OK, I just got the scoop from Greg, who is not yet at his computer but will post the details as soon as he is.

    The parameters of the Resolution have actually been EXPANDED, and more people will be checked for legal status. BIG VICTORY FOLKS!

    By the way, those people who have suggested that Marty Nohe has taken a step backwards on his position with regard to the Resolution should be aware that their presumption is totally false…and, if you’ve already castigated him, he’s owed an apology. That, by the way, is not quoting Greg, it’s merely my opinion. You really must stop jumping to conclusions about these folks until you know the facts, or you might find them less willing to listen next time if they feel they’re going to be thrown under the bus anyway. I wouldn’t blame them at all.

  149. The Dude said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:38 pm:
    Flag comment

    Channel 4 news just implied the resolution was weakened.

  150. anon said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:38 pm:
    Flag comment

    We all just got had.

    Now they are only going to check everyone ARRESTED.

    That illegal driving 50 in a 25 won’t be checked now. He’ll get a ticket and that’s it.

    Before tonight’s gutting, he would have been run thru ICE and if he had a detainer, he’d have gone to jail. But not now. Now he gets a ticket and is sent on his merry way.

    Some victory.

  151. starryflights said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:38 pm:
    Flag comment

    Then, there is hope.

  152. starryflights said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:39 pm:
    Flag comment

    Anon, this is what I fear. If so, then this is very, very bad news.

  153. AWCheney said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:40 pm:
    Flag comment

    You’ve got it wrong anon…and when was the last time that the MSM got it right?

  154. anon said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:44 pm:
    Flag comment

    Is it NOT that everyone ARRESTED will be checked?

    Perhaps I have misunderstood.

    Who WILL be checked now?

  155. starryflights said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:49 pm:
    Flag comment

    Stewart said everyone arrested, he did not say everyone stopped by the police. Some definitions of arrest:

    1. To stop; check: a brake that automatically arrests motion; arrested the growth of the tumor.
    2. To seize and hold under the authority of law.
    3. To capture and hold briefly (the attention, for example); engage.

    So, it all depends on if they are using the word arrest to the fullest definition or if they use the word arrested to mean, hauled into the police station, since anytime a police officer stops you, you are kind of under arrest.

  156. AWCheney said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:52 pm:
    Flag comment

    Greg is going to post the details as soon as he’s able to get home…he promised!

  157. The Dude said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:54 pm:
    Flag comment

    Of course, as I recall they couldn’t really detain anybody who couldn’t be arrested for a county offense anyway. They had to release and then submit info to ICE but could not detain, if I remember correctly?

  158. The Dude said on 29 Apr 2008 at 11:57 pm:
    Flag comment

    http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=600&sid=1379436

    “In addition to the 41 arrested, police reported to federal immigration authorities the details of 21 others who were in the country illegally. Deane released details to show that police arrested only those who were accused of crimes other than illegal immigration.

    Police say 25 people received traffic tickets but were not arrested. Two others were questioned by police, but were legal residents and not charged with anything. “

  159. The Dude said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:10 am:
    Flag comment

    Washington Post also reporting the resolution has been weakened.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/29/AR2008042902990.html

  160. The Dude said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:13 am:
    Flag comment

    BOCS members clearly spinning this. I think the Post got it right. They weakened the resolution in my opinion.

  161. starryflights said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:18 am:
    Flag comment

    It sure sounds like it has been weakened. Why did they all vote against Principi and then come back from closed door session and basically give him what he wanted?

  162. The Dude said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:23 am:
    Flag comment

    I guess it all depends how aggressive the police will be. Corey Stewart’s spin is:

    “Officers will continue to have the discretion to check the status of anyone detained by them, even for minor infractions.”

    This doesn’t seem much different than the probable cause language before. But somehow they don’t need cameras for “officer discretion” but they did need it for “probably cause”? Aren’t the two the same thing?

    This is just politico mumbo jumbo. Everybody will claim victory I guess.

  163. starryflights said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:25 am:
    Flag comment

    Deane will very likely discourage PO’s from checking. He will tell them they are at risk with no cameras.

  164. The Dude said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:31 am:
    Flag comment

    If overcrowding a house and noise violations aren’t arrestible, this resolution is severely weakened in terms of combating the 25 illegals per house problem, which is probably the biggest detriment to quality of life for the rest of us.

    Sure feels like the BOCS blew it to me: I guess you can’t trust anybody.

  165. The Dude said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:36 am:
    Flag comment

    All those people popping wine bottles earlier tonight are going to have a miserable morning when they read the news.

  166. AWCheney said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:37 am:
    Flag comment

    I repeat, since when has the mainstream media gotten anything right on this issue? Why should now be any different?

  167. The Dude said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:38 am:
    Flag comment

    Whoever voted against the cameras should be blamed for killing this, and voters should remember who they are and throw them out. They caved over a penny, plain and simple.

  168. The Dude said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:39 am:
    Flag comment

    I hear ya AW but if Deane could effectively tell his PO’s not to check immigration status before until the “probably cause” language, then by removing this language he is free to do it again. I don’t know how you can spin this as a victory. I wish it was.

  169. The Dude said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:41 am:
    Flag comment

    Ha, don’t know why I keep typing “probably cause” insteand of “probable cause.” Too late at night I guess.

  170. AWCheney said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:43 am:
    Flag comment

    I’m not spinning anything. Deane’s under a microscope now, and of an age when he should be retired. You can only piss off your bosses for so long, and either he’s smart enough to realize that, or that retirement should look pretty good to him by now.

  171. The Dude said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:46 am:
    Flag comment

    I wish they would pass a statute that any residence with more than 4 adults in it will automatically trigger immigration status checks. That would solve most of the problems we have in this county. It isn’t profiling because it requires checks for all residences of this nature.

  172. The Dude said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:54 am:
    Flag comment

    Ha, now the Washington Times is reporting the resolution has been stiffened!

    http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080430/METRO/823602705/1004

    AW might be right after all. I guess we will have to see how it plays out.

  173. Anonymous said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:55 am:
    Flag comment

    Charlie Deane is home popping a wine bottle now.

  174. The Dude said on 30 Apr 2008 at 1:12 am:
    Flag comment

    Maybe this is a good ending after all. After some more thought and thinking a bit deeper on it.

    1) Bogus need for cameras not funded
    2) EVERY person arrested is checked. No probably cause needed
    3) Services are still denied where possible

    and now the complicated one:

    4) For non-arrestable offenses “probable cause” language is removed but “police discretion” is maintained. This allows

    A) Police can still check immigration status if they personally see probable cause (I mean, thats what police discretion really is), unless Deane screws it up again. He’s the wild card that can screw it up still
    B) Wash Post and libs can pretend it is weakened more than it is, feel like they accomplished something, and finally leave us alone
    C) Conservative groups will still see victory and beat the drum, ensuring illegals will still not trust coming here because perception won’t be it has weakened enough

    Well, thats my victory spin. See, all sides will claim victory!

  175. Anonymous said on 30 Apr 2008 at 1:30 am:
    Flag comment

    Charlie Deane doesn’t care what we think or what we want. We can’t get rid of him. He doesn’t work for us. He works for the Board of Supervisors and there are too many on the board that will protect him. He has nothing to fear from us.

  176. josh said on 30 Apr 2008 at 1:55 am:
    Flag comment

    starry,

    your not under arrest until you have been read your rights. Once the rights have been read then you are officially under arrest and they can check. you have been “detained” until then.

    Josh

  177. starryflights said on 30 Apr 2008 at 9:58 am:
    Flag comment

    Then it appears that the Resolution has indeed been weakened.

  178. Good Time Chalie said on 30 Apr 2008 at 10:07 am:
    Flag comment

    The only thing Deane fears is having this issue stand in the way of having the future central county public safety facility named after him when it opens. It stands to reason it is the only reason he continues forward in his position.

  179. Bryanna said on 30 Apr 2008 at 11:22 am:
    Flag comment

    josh said on 30 Apr 2008 at 1:55 am:
    your not under arrest until you have been read your rights. Once the rights have been read then you are officially under arrest and they can check. you have been “detained” until then.
    ——————————————————————————-
    My understanding of this is that until the police read a suspect their Miranda Rights, they cannot check immigration status. This measure clearly defines the process as it related to probable cause, removes the risk of a lawsuit, eliminates the need for cameras and an Illegal Alien Task Force.

    The question is not whether the Rule of Law resolution was weakened, but rather the end results will be the same.

    If construction picks up again, and businesses need cheap labor, will the problem recreate itself with illegals coming here for work?

  180. Rick Bentley said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:09 pm:
    Flag comment

    It’s early to talk about the problem “recreating” itself. It still exists, just to lesser degree. I see illegal aliens all around, though only half as many.

  181. Anonymous said on 30 Apr 2008 at 12:23 pm:
    Flag comment

    josh said on 30 Apr 2008 at 1:55 am:
    starry,

    your not under arrest until you have been read your rights. Once the rights have been read then you are officially under arrest and they can check. you have been “detained” until then.

    Josh

    =================================
    Unfortunately, I was arrested about 20 years ago on a DWI charge and was not read my rights. The Miranda Rights may only apply to a felony arrest.

  182. madmom said on 1 May 2008 at 12:10 pm:
    Flag comment

    Ricky was there for a bit. Stienbeck too. All sitting with the 9500Liberty
    group.

Comments are closed.


Views: 4011