Losing Money In A Profitable Business
By Greg L | 14 May 2008 | Prince William County | 91 Comments
The large number of vacant foreclosed houses in Prince William County is going to cost county taxpayers an additional $2 million for lawn maintenance, if a recent article in the DC Examiner can be taken at face value. What isn’t mentioned here is that there’s a revenue side to this enforcement of the county’s zoning ordinances, where property owners are charged $450 each time a lawn is mowed by the county. Even if our county government for some unknown reason must spend $259 to mow a lawn, and the county has to wait in many cases for a sale of the property in order to collect the revenue, since when does someone consider a business activity that yields a 42% profit margin a county expense? In any other real, the prospect of a 42% profit margin gets folks jumping for joy.
The cash-strapped county already has been overwhelmed with hundreds of complaints triggering an emergency request for extra funding.
The avalanche of vacant homes could result in mowing of 2,700 lawns three times this year, which would be an enormous increase over the 140 lawns mowed last year.
“We got 500 complaints in three weeks,” said Michelle Casciato, director of the county’s Neighborhood Services Division. The department received fewer than 500 grass-related complaints all last year.
If estimates provided in the article are accurate, and the county ends up mowing 2,700 properties three times this summer, that $3,645,000 in revenue generates a profit for the county of $1,547,100. If instead of using public employees to do this work at such astronomically high rates, if they just managed to get local teenagers to do this work instead of playing nintendo games, that profit margin could rise considerably while saving plenty of parents from having their children glom off the contents of their wallets during the summer months. Why have government do this in the first place, if it could be relatively easy to contract this effort out? Is there something “governmental” about mowing a lawn, such that this couldn’t be performed by the private sector?
There’s a tremendous profit potential for private enterprise to perform this function. When county government can’t manage to mow a quarter-acre lot for less than $259, it really raises the question of why government is bothering to do this in the first place. When private enterprise can resolve the issue of government moaning about how it’s saddled with a profit-turning enterprise, plenty of private companies I’m sure would be more than happy to take this problem off their hands. Even if government somehow has to be in the lawn mowing business, I’ve no doubt there would be no shortage of companies willing to front the costs associated with a profitable activity, backed by a government’s triple-A bond rating, and secured by liens on real estate.
Oh, to be saddled with such insurmountable problems.
I doubt we’re actually going to see this “problem” develop to the degree some government officials believe it will, though. Holding a foreclosed property and getting slapped with a $450 lien every month is one heck of an incentive for the banks holding these properties to contract out for lawn maintenance. It will save them a bundle, and most likely increase the value of the properties they’re trying to unload. If I were a somewhat enterprising teenager living in an area where a lot of these properties were located, I’d be calling the real estate agents and negotiating deals pretty quickly. Even charging the less exorbitant but still somewhat ridiculous price of $100 a mow would soon yield more cash in my pocket than I’d ever hope to earn slinging burgers.
There’s a lot of money to be made here, and somehow, if government manages to get itself out of the way, the private sector will solve this. In the meantime this whining is pretty pathetic.
The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.
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Off subject, but what ever happened during that community meeting weeks ago where you thought the sign in Manassas was going to be discussed? I don’t recall seeing any further info about the meeting. Was this the public permit review for the proposed expansion?
[Ed note: during citizens time at the meeting several residents spoke out about the billboard, and the Mayor gave assurances that this would be handled soon. No concrete information is available about what the city has actually done, or intends to do.]
What about the lack of sales revenue during the WAIT time?
Where is BOB?
Have you driven down Liberia/Lomond drive lately. It’s a disaster with some lawns with grass and weeds over 3′ tall. Hire some teenagers and provide a continuous summer job for them and put liens on the properties.
20 bucks an hour would probably provide a lot of encentive for the teenagers.
Isn’t it amazing how many more calls on grass are coming in now, as folks actually know who to persistently call in the county and the city. The jury is still out on the Park. I’ve heard residents are calling and getting the blah-blah-blah end of why it will take a “process” of initial contacting the owner, to waiting on the response of the contact, to scheduling an inspector to verify the grass has exceeded the allowable limit, to contracting mowing specialists and by then we have 3 feet of weeds! I’ve been keeping an eye on my own neighborhood and making weekly calls with status reports. Today I spoke with a couple of ‘contracted’ guys doing what we won’t do anymore, and they told me they were working for a management company out of NC. Now how in the hell can a management company out of NC know what is going on in Manassas? They said the lawns are ’supposed’ to be cut every 10 days but……….they’ll have to wait for the go ahead before they return. I began calling when this lawns grass was 12 inches high. Today they mowed over three feet of grass!!!
When the County has to do this, they put a non-judicial lien against the property which is not wiped out by the foreclosure. This is recorded in the land records and puts a cloud on the title. Consequently, the person buying the property at the foreclosure sale, will have to pay it, or if there is no buyer and the bank gets the property, when the Bank sells the property the money gets collected from the bank and it gets sent to the County.
ddpdrinker,
Right you are. It might take some time, but the do get that $.
V1,
The teenager thing is a good idea. However, they are not licensed, bonded, and insured. Also, if a good samaritan were to mow the law they would be trespassing. My goodness, we’ve seen the grass all around here. The grass is so tall and now after all that rain. Yikes! Futhermore, who knows what kind of wild life could be living in the tall grass. People are just too sue happy these days. Honestly, the height of some of this grass you need a porfessional with serious equipment to mow this stuff down. We should call the real estate agents where there are signs before we Neighborhood Services involved. We’ve been pretty lucky and the agents have got the lawns mowed.
All,
Michelle Casiato was to give the Neighborhood Services Quaterly Report. However, the dynamic of PCE has change so because of the tall grass in the last few weeks. She reported on the tall grass. This should be re airing sometime soon on Channel 23 again.
ddpdrinker & Layfette,
The county will EVENTUALLY get the money but at what cost to the surrounding homeowners that are/will be over run with the cost of pest control PREVENTION due to the high amounts of rain. I cannot help but to think and have had recent conversations about this.
I m driving by houses that are cresting the 3ft mark of tall grass and not to mention the standing water collected by uncleaned gutters and items left in the yards.
I have driven by houses and SEE abandoned vehicles, not just ONE…some have up to 3 left….
My teenage son mows lawns through the summer usually charges 25 for a simple mow more for edging and bagging. These yards have grass 2 and 3 feet tall. Standard mowers can’t handle this. I wish he had a commercial mower the kid could make some money that is for sure!
Lafayette,
It is nice to see you posting again. Missed not having you around as much
If the county has a problem with fronting the money on this, I have little doubt they could negotiate loans secured by the liens placed on the houses. If they can’t figure out how to do this, I’d be more than happy to help, for a fee of course.
Heck, they should just outsource the whole thing. With well over three million dollars in projected revenue, a profit margin approaching 50%, and the only business risk being when — not whether — you’ll be paid, this is a tremendously attractive business model.
me,
Thanks. I’ve been very busy.
I just can’t stand see all of this grass again. It’s going to be worse than last year. There are way more vacant houses, and many well on their way to foreclosure. I am very concerned what this grass is going to do to PCE. All 17 inspectors are now on “grass duty”. There is going to have to be some serious thinking outside of the box to get this resolved. Zoning is my pet peve, and I just could keep my hands away.
corr: and I just could NOT keep my hands away.
Well, it’s seems like the perfect time for a motivated individual to go in the grass mowing business. Heaven knows there’s plenty of money to be made on the mowing in PWC. I am sure the two cities will/are facing the same tall grass problems.
‘Well, it’s seems like the perfect time for a motivated individual to go in the grass mowing business.”
Nah, kick back and…….
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23490612/
It a mess over on the east end. I found myself calling the realtors on Sunday morning on my way to Church. Some even answered saying they would mow it as soon as the weather permitted. I wasn’t holding my breath. 2 have actually done it. We mowed the one next door (only after first notifying the county so they could get the violation notice out) but I can’t do all of the others.
How can the realtors expect to sell these things looking like crap?
What happened to the initial happiness felt, due to houses being vacated? Reaping what was sown, I guess.
Maybe Corey Stewart should start a lawncare business.
It’s still there. Dealing with long grass is a whole lot easier that suffering next door to residential overcrowding and all that goes with it.
Two houses down from me is one property that’s growing hayfields. Before it was vacant, there were about ten adults and six children living in a three bedroom house. The kids (including a two year old) were left unsupervised after school let out and started throwing random objects onto the roof, the folks hid cars in their back yard that didn’t have current tags or county stickers, the place was constantly noisy, trash was everywhere, and neighbors were calling the police about twice a week.
I can report long grass and it’ll be dealt with at some point. If it really bothers me, I can take my mower over there and deal with it myself. What I can’t do is watch a six year old and a two year old playing in the street with cars zipping by and wondering if the next sound I hear isn’t screams and squealing brakes.
It’s all part of the mess left behind by your dear little illegal aliens Krutis, as well as the results of the tanking real estate market…which I predicted back in 2005. Anyone with only half a brain could have seen that coming. It hardly has anything to do with Corey Stewart, or any other single individual for that matter.
For someone of your years, I have yet to see you offer even a modicum of wisdom in your comments. I certainly hope that I don’t experience that level of cranial atrophy when I reach that stage of my life. THAT is what I felt like saying on that previous thread when I said I would hold my tongue in deference to your age.
krutis this has nothing to do with illegals but everything with people getting in over their head on loans. just so happens as many of them were illegals who had a little help on getting loans (illegal of course) and many were just that, people who made a bad call.
attributing everything to illegals would be poor form, so the “reaping what you sow” comment would really not apply here. the resolution didnt do this, what goes up has to come down and in the case of real-estate this is doubly true.
AWC - I’m totally in awe!
Why do you keep bringing up “your years”, “at your age”. Cranial atrophy seems to take place at ANY age judging from your comment.
josh - It has nothing to do with illegals? I thought they were the ones packing up and moving out due to the clamp down in PWC.
The grass is certainly going to need to be mowed more than 3 times this season. Mine has been mowed at least 4 times so far this spring. It needed it. Red Dawn, DDP, and Laf all have brought up important points.
It is going to be mosquito city in Westgate/Sudley. West Nile was reported in Yorkshire last year. The mosquito people are pretty uppity about where they will go and where they will spray. They refuse to spray Sudley Manor Drive because of the speed limit (and NO, I cannot explain their reasoning)
I would be afraid to mow any of those yards as a contractor. I would expect the county to not be able to pay me for my efforts. I would also be afraid something living in the jungle would get me. A blogger who shall remain anonymous and I were out surveying the estate (cough-choke-cough) and saw an empty patrol car. We stopped to make sure something hadn’t crept out of the jungle and carried him off. He resurfaced, fortunately. Abandoned car in a vacant house.
It’s going to be a loooonnnggg, hot summer.
I think the article on this missed the point entirely. The listing agent for the property is compensated to keep maintenance such as cutting the grass up to date if the property is backed by Freddie or Fannie. This should not be an issue for local governments to solve.
Ah, but Greg, that business activity will yield a 42% profit margin for the county ONLY if the property owner pay the fee.
The county can add late fees or even put a lien on the property, but they can’t be collected until the property is sold.
Banks are backlogged with “walk away” properties. If the county is going to bill for this “service,” I would hope it sends a cc to the bank holding the loan as well.
This is being discussed in Herndon as well. In question is where the Town stands regarding HOAs, since HOAs are responsible (by state law) to enforce basic maintenace violations.
No one is sure whether the Town has the legal authority to take this action against a HOA member if there is no health or safety risk. It was agreed, non-HOA properties fall under the laws of the Town and are subject to “mowing unsightly lawns for a fee.”
The same most likely applies to Counties as well.
Nice Try said on 15 May 2008 at 6:12 am:
I think the article on this missed the point entirely. The listing agent for the property is compensated to keep maintenance such as cutting the grass up to date if the property is backed by Freddie or Fannie. This should not be an issue for local governments to solve.
=================
Nice Try, do you have a link source for this?
I contacted the realtors first - they said they would get someone out to mow the next day, and one week later, no mowings. So - my neighbors and I are mowing the front lawns of the foreclosed homes immediately surrounding our properties. We advised Neighborhood Services about what we were doing and they said to proceed.
Krutis - I will take high lawns any day - and I am extremely happy still. High lawns don’t bother me as long as I don’t have to deal with the “boarding houses” I had to put up with before. Our girls can take the trash outside without lewd comments and catcalls. I don’t find beer bottles in my driveway or my driveway blocked when I get home. I haven’t seen any urinating outdoors, nor have my girls. I see very little sneaking in and out of the houses at dark - or moving in and out at dark. I no longer have people hanging out in front yards or in the street at late hours. No more late night comings and goings. No more machete-wielding neighbors trimming their trees by climbing the trees bare-footed. No more rocks and sticks being thrown at my dogs. I don’t worry about my kids playing in the front yard unattended any more.
I will take tall grass any day - and I certainly don’t mind mowing the front lawns of these houses. It’s good exercise and it makes the neighborhood look better.
I’m with AWCheney - I hope I don’t experience your level of cranial atrophy when I am older.
OOOHHHH! OUCH! - AGEISM AT ITS WORST !
It’s a beatiful day, my daughter is coming for a visit from the other side of the continent, my granddaughter is graduating from George Mason on Saturday, I have the most wonderful neighbors and friends anyone could ask for, who do not question my cranial or brainial functions/
“Today is a new day; begin it well and serenely with
too high a spirit to be cumbered with your old nonsense.
This day is all that is good and fair.
It is too dear with its hopes and invitations, to waste a moment on its yesterdays.”
I LOVE teasing people and get their juices flowing. Guess I was successful this time.
When I saw this item on the TV news last night, my first reaction was, if I were 17 again, I’d be rounding up my friends and making some serious dough.
I live next door to legal immigrants. They are not Hispanic, they are Asian. They bought their house for $525K years ago, before the market maxed. They never mow their lawn. I have to tell them to. I am like a female version of Hank Hill, my lawn is always neat, but these people don’t seem to go outside. I have to tell them, or another neighbor. It’s like they never go outside. We have another house in our neighborhood the same way, also owned by Asian people. I wonder if its coincidence or cultural?
I don’t think the County or its residents should ultimately pay for mowing a lawn of a house that belongs to a bank. The bank should have to foot that. Reason: the bank shouldn’t have written or taken over the loan from a risky customer in the first place! Unscrupulous lending assisted a lot of these foreclosures to happen, although I still pin it on people who insist on buying what they cannot afford (i.e., what they have not earned).
Krutis said on 14 May 2008 at 11:26 pm:
What happened to the initial happiness felt, due to houses being vacated? Reaping what was sown, I guess.
I prefer the tall grass to 15 illegals piled into a single family house urinating in the yard and parking their 8 cars on the lawn. They are gone and soon to be gone will be the grass.
I’ll be the optimist. Think of it as allowing these yards to re-seed themselves. Also, the drop in mower exhaust has to have it’s benefits. PWC is going green!
Krutis, it must be nice to be so isolated from the illegal alien issues. You must be very happy in your gated old-age community where you don’t encounter the problems of many communities. ENJOY!
Nothing get’s Krusty’s juices flowing like a nice hot chalupa. I saw her walking to Taco Bell in her pith helmet, looking for Doctor Livingston in the tall grass.
For all those not living in HOA communities — why are you trying to circumvent the property rights of the owner of a piece of property? If I WANT my grass at exactly 11 inches why can’t I do that?
No one here should have the right to tell me how to ‘clean’ up my property nor do I have the right to tell you how/what/when to do something to your property.
Am I the only one here that believes in an individual’s right to property?
“Am I the only one here that believes in an individual’s right to property?”
I’m all for property rights. But on 1/3 acre lots, it’s called being neighborly and common courtesy keeping one’s property presentable.
Plus there are safety and nuisance issues. That should be obvious. Mosquitos, rats, etc.
I like my cars. If it were up to me, I’d have a small scale “junkyard” (to me, they’re not junk but potential gems or donor vehicles) in my backyard. I know that’s not appropriate on a 1/3 acre lot. My dreams will have to wait until I can get my 40 acre spread out in the middle of nowhere.
Tuesday’s meeting, MichelleC. gave an outline of what they needed to do.
One of these was to go to 18inches for grass and not the 12 in. What do you suppose this will do???
For all the money she gets paid, she doesn’t seem to come up with doable answers.
She also said they had funds to hire 4 parttime inspectors to help with the work load.??Have not seen anything advertized anywhere.
Me, myself and others have turned in over 25/30 violations in the Hills in the last several weeks. Many are grass and grass and other violations.
It’s a pure mess and they wonder why the people are not happy?
They need to contact the Board of Realtors and put the pressure on them to get their Realtors in line for a clean, safe community.
Tall grass breeds all sorts of ugly pests, bugs and diseases.
Anonymous @ 9:04am
No gated community for me; I hope NEVER if I can help it!
Mando,
It’s an American concept that I can do what I will with my property and if I choose or do not choose to be neighborly in keeping up my property is a decision I should make; not one under penalty of law.
The sheer amount of socialists that believe in the ‘common good’ is sickening. What ever happened to the concept of a person’s home being their castle - regardless of the grass being high or if I keep my children’s toys on my lawn.
The lawn trimming program is a waste of taxpayer monies. Regardless of the payout in the future it’s a waste to spend the money now on the promise of it being paid in the future. It might make good ‘business’ sense for a company that wants to do that - but the government shouldn’t do things for profit - only cost.
I like the long grass. It reminds me that the illegals are outta here.
We bought at the top of the market in May ‘05; at closing the house was appraised for $15K more than we were paying. As of my ‘08 county assessment, it’s at $125K less than what we purchased it at (and $140K less than its highest assessment).
So I’m going to keep calling the realtors on the houses by me to remind them of keeping the lawns on their listings trimmed and presentable. I don’t want anything else affecting the value, or perceived value, of my property.
=================
Nice Try, do you have a link source for this?
Yes, https://www.efanniemae.com/sf/formsdocs/forms/1095.jsp
The process is supposed to go like this:
1. Owner up to date on mortgage: HOA if exits and/or the city/town/county intervene to cut grass and charge fees.
2. Owner is in preforeclosure with GSE backed loan, the servicer is obligated to keep the maintenance up to date.
3. Foreclosure or REO - The listing agent or REO disposition company are paid a monthly stipend to keep the grass cut, etc.
So PWC should only be involved when it’s someone who is up to date on their mortgage and there is not an HOA or the HOA has not been effective in resolving the problem.
Anchor Baby,
Within reason, I agree with you. However, when people live in a community with smaller lots, then everyone has to adhere to community standards. Go build on the side of a mountain in Nevada if you want unfettered land use. Then you can fight with BLM.
if they just managed to get local teenagers to do this work instead of playing nintendo games, that profit margin could rise considerably while saving plenty of parents from having their children glom off the contents of their wallets during the summer months.
Greg
OSHA requires that one be at least 18 to run a power mower because of the it is a dangerous machine. Good idea about teenagers but that is a fact of life and if they get hurt one does not have enough money to pay just the fines much less the medical and such that come with the injury.
The maching to cut grass that high cost about 3 grand not counting the trailer and such to move it around. I do agree that why is the county paying that much to cut grass or are they lieing ? The county will make money at 450.00 a charge to the land owner and that is great. Too bad one can not have a goat for they are the best brush and grass clearers ever born !!!!!!
AWC Stewart does qualify for half a brain. when Chairman and after listening to just some of the problems being cause by houseing about a year ago. He forgot that the mike was still on and said ” I wish someone had told me about what was going to happen in housing ” About the only honest statement he has made while Chairman.
Bob Wills attacking Stewart; a daily event, just like Old Faithful erupting every day. Lots of hot air and spray (don’t stand too close when he is talking). The only difference is that Old Faithful isn’t bothered by Korean drycleaners.
Did someone say Korean dry cleaners? Arghh! Slowly, I turn….
Dolph,
I would argue, live in an HOA community if you want a say on someone elses property. Otherwise, it’s my property and if I want 18 inch grass or pink flamingo’s… Why not?
“The listing agent for the property is compensated to keep maintenance such as cutting the grass up to date if the property is backed by Freddie or Fannie. This should not be an issue for local governments to solve.”
Virtually none of the properties in foreclosure are backed by Fannie or Freddie, unfortunately.
These are subprime loans.
Anon, good point. I remember reading that Freddie and Fannie made public statements that none of the subprime loans met their requirements and were rejected by them. All subprimes were conventional.
So much for Plan B.
It isn’t up to the Realtor on Fannie,Freddie, or most bank properties. They have a 3rd party vendor that trashes out the house and maintains the yard. It isn’t the Realtors job. We stopped being responsible for that almost a year ago. Companies bid the work and they get direct payment from the banks to do the work.
Biggest problem is that there are so many yards that it takes them too long to get out there. Believe me, the Realtors aren’t happy with it either. It’s our sign in the yard and it’s our number the neighbors call to remind us.
We don’t like the long grass any more than the rest of you.
We have tried to get the banks to give the responsibility back to us but they can’t/won’t. It’s cheaper to contract the work in bulk. Believe me it doesn’t pay that much either, I think a teenager makes more.
Re; June-reston
“I remember reading that Freddie and Fannie made public statements that none of the subprime loans met their requirements and were rejected by them. All subprimes were conventional. ”
Not true, you would be suprised how many of the MP,Manassas homes are Freddie/Fannie
Anonymous said on 16 May 2008 at 7:55 am:
Thanks, for the explanation. I now have just when question.
Is anyone willing to get out of the car to look at a house sitting in the middle of the jungle?
It seems to me a realtor would spend that money to make the property more attractive, and get that almighty commission check. When the grass does finally get cut at these houses it makes the property look sooo much better. Of course, the realtors have the ability to be at these properties they could mow it themselves. This tall grass is a haven for rodents. We saw this happen last year. When the worst jungle at 5 feet high got mowed the rats came out. It took the work of the Health Dept., Public Works, and VDOT. This is a public health and safety issue. We have many students walking to schools in our area. The deserve better this crap left behind at these houses.
Why don’t the realtors refuse to list a house that the bank is NOT willing to maintain?
corr: THEY deserve better this crap left behind at these houses.
Kudos to Kim Ebel of Re/Max for getting right on the job. As soon as she got assigned the listing, she ordered up the mowing. I hope everyone else is being as responsible as she is.
I don’t know all the ins and outs of who owns the ultimate responsibility of yard maintainence. To my way of thinking, if a bank wants property sold and they contract with the realty company to sell, then the real estate company handles the property and bills the bank. Many of the banks who own houses around here are not local.
No one wants the tall grass and jungle in their neighborhood. It looks like crap and harbors rodents, snakes, mosquitoes, all sorts of bees and hornets and is a general eye sore.
Kids should not be encouraged to mow or even be on the property. It is tresspassing. These vacant houses are going to be a huge problem once school is out. Kids like nothing better than a vacant house to do God knows what in. Everyone living near an ‘empty’ needs to become a nosy neighbor and keep a close eye on these places and call the cops if anyone unauthorized goes in.
Anchor Baby,
You know, with all the problems we have in this area with unkempt property, that is a silly debate. There are community standards. Go buy a house in Robnel, construct an outhouse on the front lawn and see how long your private proprty owner theory holds up.
There are obviously community standards. Go for the pink flamingos. Someone has set up a happy pink couple over on Sudley Manor Drive. Is that your house?
I feel certain some kid will steal them. If the Virgin Mary gets stolen, why on earth would tacky pink flamingoes be safe?
I guess someone in Sudley got above their raisings and a little too uppity. The pink flamingoes brought us all down out of the clouds. (sarcasm off now)
Dolph,
So, what your saying is a ‘community standard’ trumps my property rights? Your perfectly ok with the SCOTUS ruling that governments can seize a person’s home and hand it over to a developer in the interest of increasing tax revenue?
No, a persons individual rights to property should always trump what a community sees as it’s ’standard’. This is America and we as property owners SHOULD fight for those rights and not give in to any means of threatening them.
If someone’s grass gets to be an ‘eyesore’ in your estimation, talk to the land owner and seek a compromise. Or, under current ordinance seek a remedy through the County but giving the County open license to invade peoples property and remake them in another image is dangerous ground.
As I’ve said before, if you really want a say on someone else’s property, move into a HOA community. Because, if your not in an HOA community I can do what I want with my property.
But, if you truly believe that one can dictate to another what they can do to another man’s property - give me your address and I’ll paint a mural on your hood. I promise, it’ll be tasteful and will conform to a ‘community standard’.
Anchor Baby,
To address your many questions, I am one of those people who really doesn’t allow others to frame the question and limit me to a yes or no answer. I just don’t play well with others like that.
I guess balance is out of the question? You believe you have the right to erect a johnny house on the front lawn over in Robnel, or Sudley, or Westgate? I don’t and I expect most of your neighbors don’t either.
You probably will never get totally exclusive rights to do what you want to do with your property. It isn’t a big issue of mine and it obviously is for you. No thanks to the mural. How about offering to do one as part of Manassas beautification? They need all the help they can get.
I am beginning to think your issue really isn’t about pink flamingos and IS everything about that ugly-ass sign over in the city. Not my problem. I don’t have to look or even go in the city.
Che’ said on 15 May 2008 at 10:47 pm:
Bob Wills attacking Stewart; a daily event, just like Old Faithful erupting every day. Lots of hot air and spray (don’t stand too close when he is talking). The only difference is that Old Faithful isn’t bothered by Korean drycleaners.
Did someone say Korean dry cleaners? Arghh! Slowly, I turn….
If truth hurts too bad Che’. Stewart is late night fodder for the jokes. DO you believe what he just said about bring another discount store into Potomac Mills. His comment that this is going to make us comparable to Fairfax Co where they have the REAL STORES.
As to the Korean Dry Cleaners just think the BOCS can always find another type of business that will be giuven the right to charge the public of PWC more for their services because of zoning that is passed to protect them from competition.
Turn your back so they can pick your pocket that much easier. Why not bend over at the same time so you can enjoy it more.
Dolph,
Grass, the sign, a port-a-potty, or my pink flamingo’s - it doesn’t matter to me. They’re all just hypothetical examples of the same thing.
Do you as an American have the right to do as you wish on your own property?
-or- can a ‘community’ or a ‘government’ come in and force you, by rule of law or threat of force, to ‘conform’ to a standard.
The conservative in me says get off my land and I will protect it. Even if it has dead grass or childrens toys strewn about.
It seems that Anchor Baby’s whole argument is that if I own it, I can do whatever the hell I want with it. Ownership is the key word to a free-for-all.
I own my dogs. Guess the Anchor Baby’s rule applies there, too?
Anchor Baby: Just try not paying property taxes on the land that you “own” and see what happens. You don’t actually own it, you know.
Jeff,
I know. Our property laws are fairly close to that of Mexico where the ’state’ owns the land and we just have a long ‘lease’ on the property.
And, the more I read this forum and listen to peoples views on property rights the more I see a commonality between the US and Mexico. And, that is something that does not make me happy.
AB,
I don’t think there is an answer here. I believe in property rights but I also don’t believe in allowing one property owner to bring down the values of an entire neighborhood exercising their ‘rights.’
In other words, overcrowding and tall grass impact everyone. Again, balance.
Anchor Baby,
The tall grass is a Zoning Violation. It’s the law. Or perhaps in a language you are more familiar with….ES LA LEY!!
I guess if you really are what your name is, you wouldn’t respect the laws of this land, like your illegal parents.
Anchor Baby said on 16 May 2008 at 12:00 pm
And, the more I read this forum and listen to peoples views on property rights the more I see a commonality between the US and Mexico. And, that is something that does not make me happy.
******
You know this is a free country and you can return to Mexico any time you sweet heart effing desires.
Here’s a portion of the code for you. You really need to read this.
http://www.municode.com/Resources/gateway.asp?pid=14114&sid=46
Beat it!
Now I have to jump in on the side of Anchor Baby. He/she is entitled to his opinions, despite the fact I only half agree with him/her. More importantly, there is absolutely no reason to insult him/her . That is just nasty. Argue the points, don’t take cheap shots at someone’s heritage. .
There are many people with strong property owner rights feelings. That’s ok. I just think one persons’s rights stop when they begin to violate someone else’s.
Dolph,
You are such a nice lady! My goodness, I didn’t pick the name “anchor baby”, they did. I personally think that’s a poor choice of words for one to call themselves. They chose to insult themselves by using such a name.
I agree, we all are entitled to our own opinions. This means even those with which I disagree. The tall grass violates the ENTIRE COMMUNITY’S rights. Don’t ya think?
I don’t mind you anybody’s side. However, I will remain in the middle. Are you saying you are no longer a moderate?
I don’t feel I took a cheap shot at their heritage. If the were “homegrown” and made those statements. I would still have something smart to say.
Beat it,
I do agree with you about the high grass. It does violate the entire community’s rights. I feel the same way about anything the brings down the value of the homes in the community or disturbs others. No argument from me on that one.
I just wouldn’t have taken a cheap shot. I can be the queen of cheap shots and I try to control it.
For instance, I generally find that people who are absolutists about property rights usually are slobs who are just using that as an excuse to not not take care of things…but not in all cases;)
Queen Dolph,(curtsey)
Call it a cheap shot if you will. I think we’ve all made them a time or two. I try to keep it to a minimum.
I’m in total agreement with the last sentence.
We probably both have, ms. beat it!
I was directing my cheap shots in another direction earlier, or I would have been more….how shall we say it….alert????
I thought you might agree with that last sentence. I do try to be fair…and often hate myself when it happens.
Oh and there is but one queen, and she lives a few blocks from here. That would be Duchess Dolph.
“Anchor Baby” has made it very clear, ever since he/she entered the debate on this blog, that he/she OPPOSES illegal aliens and is on the reasonable side of this debate. That he/she chose that name MAY mean that he/she was indeed born here to illegal immigrant parents but is just as adamantly opposed to this invasion as the rest of us, having seen how wrong it is. I consider that admirable.
The current “debate,” in which “Beat it” became rather rude, is one of property rights, and Anchor Baby’s position is a classic Libertarian one which bears a certain merit if purely from the perspective of individual rights, however, individual rights are not always so black and white. The basic rule of thumb for individual rights within the community of man is those inherent rights which do not infringe upon the inherent rights of another. That’s the gray area.
Insofar as Anchor Baby is concerned, he/she is absolutely entitled to his opinion…and “Beat it! owes him/her an apology!!
why is it that the county says they can not go onto private property to check for zoning violations, if I am not mistaken. If that were true then how can they go onto property to cut grass? It would seem that you can either go onto the property to check for violations or you can not but this approach can not be split.
Bob,
Good question. I was told as long as they can SEE it from the street.
I would like clarification myself as far as going onto private property.
Red Dawn ( your #1 fan, lol )
Anchor Baby,
I truly didn’t mean to be rude. However, the tall grass is rampant in my neighborhood. I hate it, and it’s a pet peeve of mine. I’m sorry you don’t mind the jungle like yards. That’s your right to have your opinion. I have seen that AWC has said you’re against illegal immigration. I have not been around this joint much lately and didn’t have clear understanding of what your position was. I trust her opinion regarding your stance.
AWC,
We’ve been around PWC for decades.
Thanks for the clarification. I have NOT been here much at all these days. I’ve been too busy for blogging. I respect your thoughts regarding the name “AB”.
BTW- I was very glad to hear all were safe during the “big evacuation”. Of course you, Dolph and I both remember Agnes.
Again, I know shame on me.
Dolph,
Oh, let’s not forget the “Queen Mum” is still alive and kickin’ too.
I think the problem is that the Asian (notice I didn’t say the K word; don’t want to set him off!) dry cleaner put too much starch in Bobby’s trousers. He had to ride side saddle for a while until things got better. I guess he blames Corey for that too.
Regardless, I think most of us would probably say some dumb things once in a while if we were in Mr. Stewart’s position of being a public person. Some of us even say dumb and vile things quite often on this site, as Bob mentioned his response to me earlier.
I invite any of you to spend a week with a Realtor that handles these properties for the bank. Kim Ebel must work with the 1 bank that has the Realtor farm the work out.
It just doesn’t work that way for the majority. I can tell you from first hand experience the Realtors do call the bank and we send pictures, we send e-mail, we call again and again about the yards and trash. It’s about protocol with the banks. They have rules, we have to follow them.
It isn’t about the almight commission check. Which by the way with a foreclosure property isn’t a large commission.
Here is how it works before you judge the Realtors and think that we enjoy our properties looking like a jungle.
We get assigned the property by the bank. W have to check occupancy status. In PW it usually means you have to let the hold over owner or tenant know they have to get out. We have to work through the vacate process which usually takes 40-50 days. It requires a daily visit to the house to see if they have left and haven’t destroyed the house in the process.
When they leave we have a locksmith change the locks then we have to notify the Field Asset company to trash out the house and maintain the yard. Those companies are responsible for the lawn etc. The realtors spend a lot of their time calling these companies to put pressue on them to get the work done. If you think it makes us happy to see our listings look like a crap hole you are sadly mistaken. We have rules. they are set by the bank through a contract and we need to follow those rules.
I would love to have the time to travel to all of my properties and mow the grass personally. It isn’t possible. I start my day at 5:30 am and finish on average 9pm 6 days a week and Sundays I work from 7am -4pm. It isn’t that I want my houses looking bad, it’s that there is so much more involved in these properties than anyone who isn’t involved first hand will ever know.
And by the way, we can’t “bill the bank”. Every single one of the houses we have is paid by us up front and we have to wait on average 40-50 days to get paid back. Every single home I have not only requires the utilities on, they usually require repairs. On average I spend $3700 per foreclosure without the promise of a commission return. With the price of the houses I usually spend more than my commission check turns out being.
So before you throw stones at the Realtors for the grass being so long, stop and think…what Realtor would want something they are trying to sell look like a jungle.
How about getting off our backs. We are all working hard to try and make PW a little less of a street full of empty, nasty homes.
Beat it!, that apology showed a great deal of class…kudos! I’m sure Anchor Baby will appreciate it.
Anonymous said on 16 May 2008 at 7:11 pm:
Once again thanks for the explanation. I don’t think you may wish to have your properties looking like the jungle. I am not single realtors out on. I understand your commission is not all that almighty these days. I blame the banks for making all of these risky loans in the first place. I talked to one real estate agent a couple of years ago his name was Sr. Barrientos. He told many of these folks never even saw the houses they had purchased until after the settlement. He said that was just not right to take advantage of people that way. I believe he was very sincere in what he said. He seemed very angry that this was how some real estate agents were conducting business. Now, I certainly don’t think that agents took part in this dastardly deed. Again, I believe there’s plenty of blame to go around. However, now is not the time for the blame game. It’s time to move forward and deal with hand we’ve been dealt.
You might have rules, and I fully respect that. I am sure you do work hard. I imagine it’s not an easy task with these homes that have been vacant for awhile, and all of the problems that go along with that. However, I don’t believe all may hold themselves to the same high standard you hold yourself too. I don’t envy anyone having a job that’s related to these foreclosures or anyone that is living next to/near one of these vacant properties.
I do wish you the best of luck in selling these homes.
Dirty DEEDS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvP0uwl3Q6A
AWC,
Thank you. I never take what you and Dolph say lightly.
Lafayette,
Thanks. I did choose the career path I took and just like any profession it has plenty of “bad eggs”. There are plenty of agents that made a lot in the heat of the market.
I just wanted everyone to know that we are trying hard to bring PWC back to what it was and could be again. IT makes me angry every time I go into a house and I see what the previous owners have done to something that was usually nice before they moved it.
Have a great night and we will keep pushing for the exterior to look as good as they possibly can and more importantly get honest hardworking homeowners back in these houses.
Anonymous at 8:21 am said that many of the foreclosures are Fannie and Freddie properties and fall under the regs they have for handling tall grass. This is simply not true. In all of “Manassas” only 90 foreclosures are Fannie and Freddie. This is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of foreclosures in “Manassas” (not incl. MC or MP). It is some, and their reporting process may be of SOME help, but don’t believe for a second that it’s some big number like anonymous thinks. These were subprime loans - those are not backed by Fannie and Freddie.
Anonymous @7:11 5/16
I am who sang Kim Ebel’s praises. I don’t know her from Adam, but I did email her over a jungle house one night about a week ago. She answered me that night and darn if there wasn’t someone in there un-trashing the house last weekend. Now the grass is mowed and things look great. I got her name off the sign in front of the house. I don’t know if she has a magic wand or what. She took care of the problem and I give her 1000% kudos for her efforts.
I am not in the industry and don’t know all the ins and outs of foreclosure or whose responsibility it is to maintain the outside appearance of the house. I don’t even know the steps in a foreclosure. Someone has to assume that responsibility though. The ex-’owners’ obviously cannot. Often the banks/lending institutions are not even local. The real estate company is the obvious fall guy here.
The mystery here, in my mind is, can the real estate company refuse to list the property? Does the real estate company make any profit at all off selling a foreclosure? Am I off base here suggesting that before taking the property, the real estate company inform the bank or whoever that part of their service includes outside minimum maintainence and the bank will be billed?
We cannot all just throw up our hands and say …not my responsibility.
Thanks for the explanation. What do you think the real estate industry, at least locally, do to help alleviate some of the problems here? And if not the real estate industry, who then?
Beat it!
We could all probably write The Jungle Book after living in PWC. Tarzan and Jane could move in next door. A good friend told me that she saw domestic bunnies sunning themselves in the road the other day. Perhaps the kids will be out looking for Peter Rabbit or Flopsy, Mopsy and Cotton-tail.
At any rate, we all have our outbursts living in the menagerie. It is understandable and I am sure Anchor Baby understands, if he is who I think he is.
AWC hit it pretty much on the nose. You can also see in another thread that when discussing the sign in Manassas and the 2ish years it’s been up that I agree with destroying the structure. Your property is yours, but if the government goes thru a legal process and the property owner isn’t impaired of his due process - I’ll turn the key on the bulldozer.
My fear is overzealous use of zoning ordinances to force people to do things with there property. Since I live in an HOA community I knew going into it that my property rights were trumped by the community. Where those not in HOAs choose to not live in HOA communities because they want that additional freedom.
So, I’m expressing caution. Caution that we are utilizing county government resources in a way that they really weren’t supposed to be used, allowing the county to ‘profit’ when a government should only sell or provide services at cost, and to be judious in the use of the counties resources in combatting our neighbors.
I can understand and appreciate that people see it as a blight to live next to a foreclosed home that’s unkept. I know I wouldn’t want to be in that position. And, our current system allows for it to be addressed (maybe not in the timeframe that we’d all like to see, but it works).
Not too long ago the BOCS tried to outlaw appliances in backyards to obviously allow for enforcement of persons dumping used/old appliances in there own backyards. But, the ordinance as proposed would’ve covered grills and freezers that some people keep in backyards. Good intentions sometimes come back to bite us on the butt.
So, I’m urging caution about asking government to take a more active role in personal property rights.
And, I like the name AB. No shame in being proud of who I am.
AB,
Now that you have toned down the property rights thing an increment or 2, I am going to agree with you about caution. There is room for county abuse and for overly zealous neighbors to apply their standards to your property.
HOAs, no thank you. The worst one seems to be Stonington. They fine you and have you towed in a heart beat. On the other hand, when you drive through there it doesn’t look like a slum. Of course, the people who live there can never have any company. No where to park. Few guest spots.
Che’ said on 16 May 2008 at 6:58 pm:
I think the problem is that the Asian (notice I didn’t say the K word; don’t want to set him off!) dry cleaner put too much starch in Bobby’s trousers. He had to ride side saddle for a while until things got better. I guess he blames Corey for that too.
Regardless, I think most of us would probably say some dumb things once in a while if we were in Mr. Stewart’s position of being a public person. Some of us even say dumb and vile things quite often on this site, as Bob mentioned his response to me earlier.
Che’ keep trying but don’t use starch and never rode side saddle in my life. I guess you will never catch on that your Government requires you to pay more to live in PWC then you need to by not allowing the American principal of Free Enterprise. It would not matter to me if it were Korean or Russian or W Virginia who was being allowed to shaft the people of PWC my attitude would be the same. Why do you so embrace the position of your government passing zoning that makes you pay more to live in this county? Is the problem the same as Stewarts of it is too complicated for you to explain your position ?
Keep trying and maybe one day you might get there :))))
Thanks for the validation, Anchor Baby. I was afraid that you’d been chased away…I’m glad you came back.
I, personally, also have a problem with government infringing upon personal property rights in any way, however (as I stated), there is that gray area where they must consider the personal property rights of all and not just a few. It’s a shame that we can’t rely on the better nature of the human being and assume that they will always do the right thing.
I’m sure that our county officials (at least here in PWC) struggle with that gray area, as we all do. We’ve been caught in a very unique situation, at least for this area, with the enormous inventory of foreclosed properties thanks to the sub-prime mortgage insanity along with the greed of unscrupulous lenders and realtors. I don’t believe anyone can also deny that the unusually large number of unsophisticated illegal alien owners and renters who simply abandoned these properties, often trashing them before they left, has had an impact on this issue…it’s a tough one. One hopes that, once this crisis has ended (and end it will), our government can revisit this issue from a more “property rights” friendly perspective.
In response to:
Anonymous at 8:21 am said that many of the foreclosures are Fannie and Freddie properties and fall under the regs they have for handling tall grass. This is simply not true. In all of “Manassas” only 90 foreclosures are Fannie and Freddie. This is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of foreclosures in “Manassas” (not incl. MC or MP). It is some, and their reporting process may be of SOME help, but don’t believe for a second that it’s some big number like anonymous thinks. These were subprime loans - those are not backed by Fannie and Freddie.
What you are not seeing or understanding or knowing is that your will see a “servicer” lender for these homes. For example you will see SunTrust or Wachovia or any other bank for that matter. They serviced the loan meaning they provided the loan. HOWEVER they were backed by Freddie or Fannie most of the time. There are a lot of loans tht look as though they aren’t the big 2 but they are. I have been inthe industry (successfully) for a long time and I know what I am talking about.
In re:
“The mystery here, in my mind is, can the real estate company refuse to list the property? Does the real estate company make any profit at all off selling a foreclosure? Am I off base here suggesting that before taking the property, the real estate company inform the bank or whoever that part of their service includes outside minimum maintainence and the bank will be billed?”
Yes you could refuse a listing, but if you refuse one you are done, the bank will not “come back around”. The banks make our rules plain and simple. They decide who does the work and how it gets accomplished. They are the ones paying for the work and they are the ones that decide who gets the contracts to bid the work out.
We do make some money from listing bank properties but it is no where near the “traditional amounts”. Why do we take them? Just like everyone else we have families to feed. With the market being so slow we need to take the business that pays even if it is for less money and more work.
We are trying to work to make everything cleaner and neater, it just unfortuantely doesn’t happen over night. We are pushing the banks to undertsnad our situation. I can tell you that in some situations my husband cuts the grass if the baks don’t get to it. He doesn’t make and money off of it but it gets the job done.
Anyway, please know that most of us are doing everything we can to get our propeties clean and sold as quickly as possible. Sometimes between all of the rainy days, the amount of properties they have to maintain, and the logistics involved, there will be some houses that just take longer to get fixed.
If you are right that most of these subprime loans are backed by Fannie and Freddie , then banks shouldn’t be going under because the loans would be guaranteed. But that isn’t the case. And FYI I’ve been in the business for years, too. The vast majority of these loans are sub-prime and they are not government backed. I am well aware that all of them will end up with a servicing company, but the comments were made directly in regard to Fannie and Freddie’s process of maintaining a property. That a property will eventually be maintained to some degree by some service company was not at all the point of the conversation.
I certainly don’t fault the realtors for being unable to put out loads of cash on property maintenance - unfortunately, most people don’t realize that realtors work for free until there is a settlement - which is often far off and hard won.
Time to get busy. You can label bad neighbors and sex offenders at
http://www.rottenneighbor.com/
Find the article at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/16/AR2008051600316.html
Anon-
Below is what Freddie Mac is about:
“As a leader in the secondary mortgage market, Freddie Mac helps make homeownership a reality for millions of people in America every year. Here’s how the secondary mortgage market works.
Putting the Process in Motion
Homebuyers apply for mortgages from primary market mortgage lenders such as banks, thrifts (which include savings and loan associations and savings banks), mortgage companies, credit unions, and online lenders.
The primary market mortgage lender evaluates the homebuyer’s ability to repay the mortgage, and if the lender’s criteria are met, arrangements are made to make the loan. The transaction between the lender and the borrower culminates in what is called “the closing.” By signing the closing documents, the lender agrees to fund the purchase of the home and the homebuyer agrees to pay the mortgage as negotiated. Once the loan is closed, the funds are transferred from the primary lender to the property seller.
Entering the Secondary Market
After the closing, the primary lender may either hold the mortgage in its portfolio (along with other loans it has made) or sell it in the secondary mortgage market.
When primary mortgage lenders sell loans in the secondary market, they generally sell them as loans to an institution like Freddie Mac. They then use the proceeds of the sale to make new loans to other homebuyers in their community.
Freddie Mac is one of the largest investors in mortgages. As a major player in the secondary mortgage market, we
buy mortgages that meet our underwriting and product standards,
package those loans into securities, and
sell the securities to investors on Wall Street.
About half of all new single-family mortgages originated today are funded in the secondary mortgage market.”
Freddie/Fannie are private companies chartered by Congress as a private company serving a public need.
Anonymous said on 17 May 2008 at 4:00 pm:
Are you the same anonymous I’d been commentting to on Friday? Would you consider a screen name? So you don’t get confused with other anonymous’? Maybe something like
AnonREA or a_realtor. I really like what you’ve had to say. I think we need to hear from all parties concerned with these vacant properties. You’ve shed light on something that we all need to be aware of. Do you work more in the Eastern or the Western end of the county?
I do understand that you don’t get paid until settlement. That is true for most aspects of the settlement. I believe you are doing what you can with these properties.
I fully understand and respect the fact we all families to feed. I also, believe in “not burning bridges”. I am glad to see you are doing what you can to help the situation.
Please, thank Mr. Anonymous for cutting the grass. Tell, him to becareful out there. I can only imagine what kind of wild life may be living in some of these places.
I know it’s not your responsiblity(property maintenance). Every single parcel has an owner and ultimately they are the responsible party. However, they just aren’t being responsible. Perhaps, after the properties get slapped with a Weed Lien to the tune of $450 they might then consider hiring someone to maintain the property.
I am a title examiner and it’s a lot more time consuming these days. When people aren’t paying their mortgage, they aren’t paying other bills either. There are more HOA Liens, judgments, and Water Liens on titles. Then the banks take way more time to run in the land records. Also, many properties have multiple owners with multiple last names and different last names on Deeds. We all know the banks own thousands of properties in the county. This problem didn’t happen overnight, and I agree it will not go away overnight either.
Lafayette,
Sorry about the Anon tag, I was so frustrated with the conversation I just fired it out. Yes I have had a few previous posts.
As a title examiner you know how frustrating the situation is and how difficult it is to get anything done with the sheer volume of homes. I saw on a newer post that Greg showed that sales are up. You see it too BUT for every sale I am getting I am getting 3 new foreclosures in their place. It’s going to be a long haul and we still have another round of interest rate resets to go through.
I do work with a lot of banks to sell their homes and I can tell you they predict see a slow until 2010. It’s a mess so everyone is going to have to be patient with us.
Since you told me you are a title examiner I am going to vent to you about MP utilities (since you understand the lien process). For every foreclosure we are required to turn on all utilities. It usually takes me a day of being on the phone with the various utility service and prove to them that I am not the previous owner so they forgive the previous balance. NOT THE CASE IN MP. The water company makes the Realtor pay the previous balance before they will turn the water on. I usually get stuck with a $400-$500 water bill prior to turn on THEN a $65 non refundable turn on fee. Here’s my favorite part…their application speficially spells out Realtors and banks for this. If I am a new owner I am exempt from paying the previous balance. The reason I am venting….as a title examiner you know as well as I do that all of the lien holders are notified of the pending foreclosure and given their 30 day right to claim their lien. They told me that “they don’t have time to respond to the request” and that it is just “easier” to go after the bank for the previous balance. I even talked with the City attorney about it. MP code shows it as “a parity to an unpaid tax lien”, except that the State code(which overrides City code) says they can’t do it. They told me tough luck.
My question to you is, do you see this a lot with the lien’s in place and what is the most common lien you are seeing on all of these foreclosures. Your job is just as tedious as ours is right now, I feel your pain…
AnonRE,
Thanks for picking a name.
I’ve not been around much these days. However, the tall grass and foreclosures are something that are more than pet peeves of mine. I would agree with the 3:1 ratio. I’d say it’s about the same for me.
I never see Water Liens recorded in the land records for the two cities. I see plenty of unpaid Water liens with balances due to the PWCSA. I think water liens and HOA liens are running neck and neck at this point. I will try to keep a mental note of which one is leading the race.
Tedious, in deed!(pun intended
) There’s plenty of pain to go around, and I agree with the 2010 assesement, unfortunately.
There are Water Liens being filed against the prior occupants names even after the banks own them.
I am SPEECHLESS over the hoops you must jump through in the Park. Sadly, this does NOT surprise me in the least. I really don’t even know what to say on that matter. Grrrrrrr!!!
I truly appreciate your comments. It’s nice to see respectful and educational exchanges happening here. You’ve restored a little of my faith in bvbl commenters.
Thanks again. I’m off to do some titles now.