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Happy Metrosexual Fathers Day
By Greg L | 15 June 2008 | Uncategorized | 72 Comments
In celebration of Father’s Day, the Washington Post has this unusual story about how men are enjoying acting more like women. I can’t blame the owners of Tranquility Day Spa for trying to reach out to a new clientele, but I do have to wonder about what’s happening to men when they feel their life experience might somehow be incomplete without a trip to a salon for some “manscaping.” It used to be that when men felt some sort of an urge to complete themselves, they just grabbed a fishing rod.
“You don’t have to be macho all the time and can enjoy the same things women enjoy,” Manassas resident Kurt Schinnerer said while getting his hair cut. “This is relaxing, and I think the older you get, the more you like to pamper yourself.”
Ok now, choke back that awful taste in your mouth. It’s just the new Washington Post approved ritual for men and you’re under no obligation to actually do this. Just take it as a warning.
…they arranged the event to draw men into a ritual that is part of many women’s lives: a day at the salon.
The driving force behind this new higher standard for male perfection? Predictably, women.
“We are actually seeing an increase in men’s interest” in salon services, Gloria Harding said. “Men are taking better care of themselves and find women absolutely love that. What’s motivating them is probably what motivates men in most cases, and that’s the woman in their lives.”
Let’s see just how well this works. I don’t know a lot of men who have been terribly successful at trading in their masculinity in order to gain the approval of women. Actually, I don’t know any who have been successful at this, although I know plenty who have tried. It seems to me we started this nonsense just about the time the divorce rate started to skyrocket, didn’t we? But still this self-destructive foolishness continues.
“Things have changed. I have three daughters and a wife, so I am surrounded by women. I now live in a woman’s world.”
Transforming yourself into a woman just because you’re surrounded by them just isn’t fair to the women in your life. Other women are much better at being a woman than we men will ever be, and likely the only reason men are invited to participate with women in the first place is that we can provide something unique and different. That, and men can move furniture around a little more easily. Jumping headlong into female-lite kind of robs those women of the reason they invited you there to begin with.
“Friends pick on me because they think I shouldn’t waste that much time on myself,” he said. “I say, if you can waste time beating yourself up, you can spend the same time getting pampered. This is not at all just a girl thing.”
Sometimes buddies try to tell you something. Usually, it’s worth taking the time to listen. When someone thinks women are the final arbiters of what it is to be a man however, that doesn’t happen too often. Someone who is so driven to fit in around women that they’re willing to surrender their masculinity is hardly a likely candidate for corrective action until the full consequences of these decisions have fully run their course. That’s too bad, since it would be nice to help other men avoid what this almost inevitably does.
And no dive into the feminization of men is complete without the much sought-after female approval. Here it comes…
“See, they compliment you here. You don’t get that at the barbershop,” [Angel Montanez] said.
This guy’s life now is complete, I suppose. You’d think he’d at least be looking for, well, I’m not going to say it here. Use your imagination.
Here’s a tip for the guys: instead of trying to become the man your woman says she wants you to be, how about trying to be the man your woman might leave you for. Reach for the fishing pole, instead. Don’t come back looking pretty, come back with dinner, and cook it on a fire. With a beer. And a story about how you took on nature, and won.
You’ll get more than a compliment. Trust me.
The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.
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Does any real man WANT a woman who wants this kind of behavior in her man?
What a self-destructive exercise. Kind of reminds me of women sporting tattoos, previously limited to longshoremen, Marines, and Special Forces types. What kind of real man wants a woman who would mutilate herself for him?
Free country though. No one does things they don’t really want to. These guys have a feminine component, and they want to explore it I guess.
Yea, probably laughed at.
Greg, give these guys some credit. Which would you rather have a guy do: A little pampering in a legitimate establishment, mud, hot stones, such and so…or a Table Shower & a H.E.?(I can hear Kurtis’ keyboard clacking as we speak, or maybe it’s just her dentures)? If you’ve never had a real message from a licensed therapist, you don’t know what you are missing. Not sure I would want the pedicure and all the other chick-type things, but an hour of Shiatsu and some spine cracking is good stuff.
If men start acting like women, we’ll be easy pickings for the subterranean crab people plotting to enslave mankind. Heed the warnings of South Park, gentlemen! Humanity is counting on you!
You can always count on the Washington Post to “commemorate” a holiday by negating its essence.
This is just another of a long unhappy series of articles over the years in which the Post seeks to re-educate its — thankfully dwindling — readership on the (non)meaning of manhood, parenthood, motherhood, patriotism, Christmas, etc.
The Post strikes again. This is another reason why I havent
subscribed to the print version since the bird died. My kids
would probably have a heart attack if I asked to go to
a salon on Fathers Day. My wife, who understands me, asked
if I wanted to go shooting at the NRA range. She knows me.
She bought me a new pistol for Christmas.
This woman is a keeper!!!
Luckily I don’t read the Post. Haven’t in 20 years.
‘Twas a perfect Father’s Day for me. Washed the truck, went to a gun show (bought some ammo and priced some M1 Garands) and have been smoking some ribs for about 5 hours now. Perfect. Simple.
Manscaping? Ha!
Happy Father’s Day to all dads!
What would Mel Say?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQJVe07oyZQ
Actually, in hindsight a manscaping might be not too bad, especially for the 40+ y.o. dudes.
Trimming the nose and ear hair could be refreshing. It sure beats combing it all the time. And a pedicure, though probably requiring a grinder and dremel, surely would save on the number of socks the dude would have to buy.
es_la_ley ,
Hah, Hah! I had the after thought about the hair and nose hair too.
Let’s not forget about the brows
Well, if “Paulie Walnuts” can get a manicure, that’s man enough for me!
http://www.aikenspro.com/photo_blog/archives/rooney1.jpg
I have never tried to copy a picture and post it….hope it works
Let’s see… a day surrounded by a bunch of women who are catering to my every whim? Or in the woods with my Browning BAR, bugs, and a bunch of other guys?
Sorry… this is an easy one for me… judge me as you will.
Pass the Pinot Grigio and cheese, please. Did somebody mention foot massage?
I think it’s well past the time when you accepted that the people of the world is not all like you, and free people are free to live their own lives and spend their time and money as they see fit.
Why do you care about this? Are you that threatened by all types of difference?
In celebration of Father’s Day my son took me out to the firing range to try out the new rifle his grandmother bought him for graduation.
Mmmm, nothing like the sound and smell of 7.62 mm ammo in the afternoon.
It’s okay to manscape ….shoot go for it and get a “Brazilian” without making a noise, who needs water boarding?
Ted,
Graduation and a 7.62-shooting rifle? Sounds like your boy is ready for the world.
As Sean Penn’s character said in the movie, Fast Times at Ridgemont High, “Whoa….those guys are fags!”
Censor Clairese Lippincott!!!!!
I know Mr. Shinnerer, and he’s not a “fag”. I have to agree with others and say, to each his own. The bothersome part of this to me is that the Post chose to attempt to marginalize the holiday in this manner. Not exactly a Norman Rockwell portrait….
What Clairese Lippincott said on 15 Jun 2008 at 8:33 pm “…those guys are fags!”
Let me get this straight, guys who would rather spend the day being pampered by women instead of being in the company of men are “fags” (not my term of choice - to each his or her own)? I don’t think so. Perhaps my seven years in the Far East have given me some rather sophisticated tastes in this area.
Age has made me secure enough in my manhood to enjoy (…nay… seak) the company of women once and a while. I read the Post article and plan to make an appointment. I think Psychiatrists have a term for folks who aren’t secure in these situations; however, that’s another thread. I worry about folks who think it merits a discussion as deep as the one exhibited on this thread.
Yeah, “Old Soldier.” And psychiatrists also (now) say that homosexuality is not a mental disorder.
Old Soldier,
From the trenches to the mud bath, CHEERS! Now pass me the grapes
Doesn’t apply to me. I didn’t even take a shower today. I did brush my teeth though, mmm… maybe I am a little gay.
I’ve always been mildly disturbed by men who get manicures and highlight their hair. It’s their choice, but I just don’t see that as particularly manly. Why can’t they let us girls be the girls?
My Russian ancestors had their own concept of man spa: sauna and pool. And the pool is c-c-c-o-l-d. Perhaps the vodka dulls the senses. At any rate, I cannot imagine it is really good for you.
Sara said on 15 Jun 2008 at 7:03 pm:
OK, Sara, why do YOU care about this?
Chick - Your ancestors most likely didn’t have a pool; rather cut a hole in the ice like the Finns and the Swedes do. Or, if no lake available, from sauna to a roll in the snow! Talk about shock to the system!
Yes, vodka would be great after that.
(manicured nails on a man makes me think he wouldn’t know how to change a tire; and callouses, I like)
Greg writes “how about trying to be the man your woman might leave you for”. Oh man do I know how true this is, I’m not proud of this, but there was a time where I was sleeping with several married women at the same time. They came after me, I did not chase them, I figured hey if you’re going to make this so easy why not. The reason? Their men were WUSSES; these women were no longer attracted to these men because they were so feminine. Don’t ever buy into what a woman says she wants in a man, just be a MAN!
Oh, yeah, Krutis - “pool” is what the normal translation is. More often is a frozen river. Some places now actually have a pool. But it’s not quite the same thing. Apparently, tourists like to try this. I am sure they have to sign a nice, long waiver of liability.
Wonder whether Greg and the other he-men hereabouts would go for this skin beutification treatment? hehehe
Tom said on 16 Jun 2008 at 9:33 am:
Greg writes “how about trying to be the man your woman might leave you for”. Oh man do I know how true this is, I’m not proud of this, but there was a time where I was sleeping with several married women at the same time. ”
Not proud of it, but you seem pretty willing to brag about it! Thanks for ruining a lot of Father’s Days for a bunch of kids, scumbag.
Krutis said on 16 Jun 2008 at 10:06 am:
Wonder whether Greg and the other he-men hereabouts would go for this skin beutification treatment? hehehe
Well, duct taoe can remove hair. Motor oil can soften skin. One only needs to look in the garage.
Tom, you are disqualified. Few see your contribution of ’sleeping with several married women at the same time’ aka ‘notches on the bedpost’ as anything but sleezy (if it is even true). Therefore, you probably aren’t in any position to be telling the rest of us about real men and what women want.
Actually, real men don’t have to ask or even discuss it and have the self confidence not to have it the topic of the locker room.
Only a true wuss would stoop low enough to sleep with married women. Even one so utterly and devastatingly attractive that they ASKED for it. Wonderful memories????
es-la-ley
Is THAT what you use for beautification? How do you remove the motor oil? Green soap? Lye? Turpentine?
Nosy as always.
A question to the male readers of this blog: When you were growing up, did you desire to one day be a pampered, nice, sensitive man? It’s doubtful.
No. As a boy you longed for battles to fight, adventures to live, and a beauty to rescue.
America has been feminized by popular culture, by political correctness, by televison, movies, and poor role models, and by the grossly imbalanced ratio between male and female educators in our schools. The “establishment” and the “experts” have been have been attempting for years to “domesticate” our boys, to make them more like girls. Instead, many an American male has been quietly “castrated.”
I am not an any way denigrating female teachers. The vast majority work hard and do their best in the face of great and growing challenges. But because they are female, they represent only half of the adult role model for the boys under their tutelage. Without male educator counterparts, the boys suffer.
Sadly, today’s male role models are fantasy superheroes, self-centered, overpaid atheletes, and rude, crude, and vulgar action heroes. Fewer and fewer young men have genuine fatherly figures to look up to, to emulate.
A real man can be manly without crudeness. A real man can be gentle when necessary, but uncompromising and tough as nails when he knows he is in the right, when he is defending his family, his property, or his nation.
We have lost a great deal of ground in the last forty years.
One of my history professors at Hampden-Sydney — a great all-male college — referred to it as “the wimp society,” Mark. Great comment.
And, for a change, I must endorse one of “krutis’” comments, with a caveat: “Only a true wuss would stoop low enough to sleep with married women.” Very true. It violates the Man Code. Except that I sleep with a married woman every night, except when I am out of town.
‘Course, she is known as “Mrs. Young.”
Hey Tom, ever catch a social disease off my ex?
We’re a generation of men raised by women. I’m wondering if another woman is really the answer we need.
I don’t agree with Tom’s actions, but he was providing input here on the topic of this thread. I don’t think the name-calling is necessary.
DPortM said on 16 Jun 2008 at 11:39 am:
I don’t agree with Tom’s actions, but he was providing input here on the topic of this thread. I don’t think the name-calling is necessary.
Sure it is, because his behavior was deplorable. As a society, we have lost the will/ability to chastise terrible behavior when it occurs. This probably relates to the femininzation of men, which is sort of the question at hand.
Feminine men, masculine women. Neither are correct. If you can’t be who your genitalia state you are, keep it to yourself. Those of us who are comfortable with our gender identities don’t need to be “manscaped” or “butch”ered. I am all that is man. Take it or leave me alone.
Don’t be fooled, Guys. Women created this mess. Let them sort it out. If they can ever figure out what they want.
I agree with Old Soldier and Red Dawn…each man can decide if they want to get any spa-pampering. My husband used to get his hair cut at Tranquility…he loved the scalp massages you receive when they shampoo your hair…he said after a long day a work, those scalp massages really helped ease the tension and headaches; he also got his best haircuts there, too, because instead of getting some barely trained beauty-school drop-out who gets crazy with the clippers, he’d get an honest-to-goodness haircut with scissors that suits his hair type and it would be the cut that he requested, not some butchered version of it.
He’s also had several full-body massages, and I’ve never thought less about him. If I could afford for him to have one weekly, I’d do it. He’s far from being effeminate…in fact, just from being less stressed, it improves our sex-life as well as our relationship with our kids and other areas outside the bedroom.
They got some nice-looking babes at Tranquility.
What Wine Please said on 16 Jun 2008 at 2:26 pm:
Simply put, “real men” don’t give a… well, I’ll defer on the explative in deference to you and the other ladies who post, what those many “wannabe real men” think. The only opinion that might count is my wife’s. The favorite “wine” on this thread appears to be about what other men are up to. (In my world, “real men” mind their own… well… I’ll skip another explative… business.)
Nice web site. Happy Seventh Anniversary (a few days late). your husband is a lucky man. My wife and I are finishing up 38 years this year… so we must be doing something right.
The most attractive men are both tough and tender. It all depends on the situation.
My definitely masculine husband was an adorer of infants, believe it or not. He couldn’t help himself from talking to the little bundles he met in the supermarket, and he didn’t use baby talk. He was never rebuffed by a mother and the little ones beamed at the attention.
It’s the combination of male/female traits that makes us human, IMO.
As for massage; if that’s for females, why are football players and other athletes rubbed down after the games, I ask?
Krutis said on 16 Jun 2008 at 5:12 pm:
The most attractive men are both tough and tender. It all depends on the situation.
I once had a martial arts instructor that would change his kids diapers while members of his class (me!) were getting pummeled. I thought that was cool!
It’s the combination of male/female traits that makes us human, IMO.
Six in one hand - half a dozen in the other. I wouldn’t assign love/tenderness/compassion/etc as a “female” trait. A “human” one, yes. But that’s just me.
Wow, and I got to spend Father’s Day on the New Jersey Turnpike and I-95!
When my wife complains about housework and the kids, I just tell her about how men were the ones to cut down trees, harpoon whales, mine the coal, and formulate bold national environmental policies. Then my wife appreciates the hard work we males do.
Whether you are on the left or right of the political spectrum (or too confused), I hope all of you had a Happy Father’s Day!
Wow Ron your wife must be the best wife ever. If my husband ever gave me the excuses you gave your wife…I might have had to hurt him. My husband does not harpoon whales, he is not a coal miner, he does not cut down trees, and the last time I checked he formulated no new environ policies. Yes he works hard and earns a good living. I too work hard, earn a good living, clean the house, cook dinner, organize my childrens outside activities, paint, drywall repair, work full time, go to school, attend all school functions, grocery shop, write papers, dust, clean toilets, take the dog to training classes, enroll the kids in summer camp, landscape, take the kids to the pool daily, vacuum, carpet clean, wash windows and even more.
ateacher
You can’t have much time over for your husband, it seems - poor guy!
I don’t know whether you’re bragging or complaining. Personally, I always rest before I become fatigued.
Are you happy and fulfilled?
If anyone is still perusing this blog and is interested, I have posted some additional thoughts on manhood and manliness on my blog:
Domestication, Feminization, Wussification
My husband refuses to blow dry his hair (if it gets long enough for more than a towel, it’s time for a hair cut) and refuses to order anything at Starbucks but a medium coffee. When the helpful employee tries to get him to use the shop lingo, he just grumbles politely, “Whatever a medium coffee is… please… don’t make me say some Italian or French thing just get a cup of coffee.” When our friends let their teenage son dye his hair, my husband was convinced that he needed to take the dad out for a consoling beer because an only son was clearly playing for the other team. He still doesn’t believe that men dye their hair.
I think if he ever expressed the desire to go to a spa, I’d assume some aliens abducted my “real” husband and replaced him with a total “pod.” I’d be looking for the Candid Camera.
I’m cool with that. The spa is where I go to get away from men, kids, cell phones, clients, work, home and you name it. I don’t want men hanging around there.
Sorry. A Bad Link.
Domestication, Feminization, Wussification
Anonymous - FYI, McDonald’s caffinated drink is very good and it’s called COFFEE and it’s cheaper. - Hint for warm weather: their iced coffee is delicious!
Hopefully this is just a passing fad. I recall my father, who spent twenty years in the USMC, was very proficient in personal grooming(nail maintenance, etc) that he learned during boot camp. He did not need to be fussed over by women or taken to a fancy pants business in order to maintain himself.
A nice shave is another story and should be enjoyed from time to time at the local barber shop.
“Motor oil can soften skin.”
I wear gloves when I change the oil in my car. They also help to get a better grip on the oil filter. (If you have to use tools to remove the oil filter, it was installed too tightly).
you should point the manly people at antibvbl to that spa, they need it.
Krutis said:
“ateacher
You can’t have much time over for your husband, it seems - poor guy!
I don’t know whether you’re bragging or complaining. Personally, I always rest before I become fatigued.
Are you happy and fulfilled?”
Who else is going to do it? Most professional women go home to a second job. It is all just part of the day. What do women who stay home and raise children do? Pretty much the same thing, just perhaps not in the same amount of time. That is the reason it is important for us to marry men who aren’t baboons. The knuckle-dragging just gets in the way when they need to lend a helping hand.
This thread is a pretty interesting read. I am amazed at what makes some men feel like sissies and how ‘real men’ are evaluated. Quiche anyone?
Mark W. Weaver,
What happened 40 years ago that changed things around? I am curious.
Dolph,
Let’s see. Where do I begin… ?
1) Prayer was taken out of the public schools (45 years ago)
The wholesale promotion in public education of Darwin’s ideas of “evolution,” “natural selection,” and the “survival of the fittest” have reduced many of us to a life where only our wants and needs matter
2) The Supreme Court approved the murder of the unborn, allowing pregnant parents to discard their children because of inconvenience, thus devaluing “human life” in general (Roe v. Wade 35 years ago)
3) Playboy, Penthouse, and likeminded publications began the devaluing of women, telling men that its OK to yield to their baser instincts, and that women were merely objects to be possessed
4) Moral absolutism was rejected in favor of moral relativism
5) Universities ceased the practice of historic, classic, liberal education, and began promoting agenda-driven, political ideologies
6) LBJ’s “Great Society” and the birth of the modern welfare state released young men from their fatherly responsibilities and rewarded women for having babies out of wedlock
7) Filmmakers and television producers loosened their standards, showing fornication, adultery, violence, and crude language, all of which demean humanity
9) The institution of marriage became weakened as more and more couples just “shacked up” without a marriage covenant, the divorce rate soared because marriage was minimalized, and the offspring of these relationships suffered greatly for lack of strong family ties, poor role models, and vision for life
All of these changes have sapped hope and stolen vision from us, especially our young. The idea of living for something larger than ourselves, and embracing the sacrifices required by such a vision, is now passé.
I’ll stop there …
Mr. Weaver-
But, don’t you understand? We don’t want to do what’s right. We want to do what’s fun and feels good. We don’t want responsibility, we want to be paid to live and enjoy!
WE WANT TO BE CHILDREN FOREVER!
If you don’t let us, you are a (fill in the liberal name-calling blank)!!
P.S. The above rant was facetious.
ateacher, you do realize that I was being sarcastic, right?
dolph 7:30 am re “ateacher”
” Who else is going to do it.”
I don’t know what age ateacher’s children are, but even quite young kids are able to dust, vacuum, clean toilets, put clothes in the washer and do the dishes. If they are over 10-12, they can wash groundlevel windows and mow the lawn. And wash the car. They should be allowed to cook a meal once a week.
Maybe the kids don’t need to go to the pool every day; rather spend a day helping with chores. If they don’t have any duties around the house, they’ll grow up expecting to be waited on hand and foot. ateacher doesn’t HAVE to all the things she lists.
How often does she have to do drywalling and painting? How often does she enrol the kids in summer camp? Sounds as if she MAKES work for herself.
DELEGATE !!!
Krutis,
I think ateacher was just listing things that at one time or another she has done. Mine had to do chores. Taking out garbage, feeding pets, sweeping were the beginning. By 10, do your own wash. Lawn mowing was a rite of passage if you were male. There was only one girl so she escaped. She just had to teach some 25 year old to sweep using a broom. She was horrified.
Mr. Weaver,
Thanks for your response. I was curious about your reason(s). I believe that there are many reasons for a different society than I grew up in. My reasons are probably more secular.
I believe the Vietnam War and its aftermath played a big part in social change and perhaps the largest contributor, in my mind is television and the media in general. You touched on this issue.
Again, thanks. Interesting.
What Mark W. Weaver said on 17 Jun 2008 at 9:39 am:
You know, it occurred to me that the Taliban probably wistfully feels the same way about change in Afghanistan now that they are out of power. Prayer in schools, domination of women (particularly over medical decisions), moral absolutism, restricted speech and press, religiously biased academic curriculum, and restrictions on the most personal aspects of the relationships between men and women (or men and men or women and women) are all part of the Taliban agenda.
I respect your right to these beliefs. I disagree when people hold these beliefs attempt to codify them in public law for all to abide by whether they agree or not (like the Taliban) and certainly hope you don‘t fall into that category.
I guess I kind of like things the way they are now.
Old Soldier,
To make a comparison between historic, traditional, American, Judeo-Christian values, and the Taliban of Afghanistan abusing their women and lording their religion over their whole country is frankly, an offense to me. To put both in the same category belies what I can only assume is a real misunderstanding of the nature of true and genuine Christianity. Jesus Himself did more to elevate women than any man of His era. Read the gospels if you doubt me. And Paul the apsotle, who many actually think was a male chauvinist, admonished husbands to love their wives with sacrificial love “as Christ loved His church and gave Himself up for it.”
I have been a born-again, evangelical, Bible-believing Christian for over 40 years, (and I am not ashamed of that despite the stereotype) and have yet to meet one Christian man who has treated his wife the way the Taliban treat their women. If I did, I would chastise him and then expose him before the whole church. Most of my friends would do the same.
Christian marriage is a beautiful thing. Mine has lasted 34 years so far, and it has required a great deal of work on both of our parts.
Taliban men abuse their women. True Christian men love theirs sacrificially.
As to my offense at your characterization, it’s OK. I’m a big boy and this is not the first time my faith has been denigrated.
And as to the “codifying” of a certain group’s beliefs, where do you think any law comes from? Every law in every nation and state and city is someone’s morality codified. To say that politics (or government) and morality shouldn’t mix is an irrationality. Every law is derived from someone’s set of moral values.
Think about it. Speed limits in residential neighborhoods are set at 25 MPH. Why? Because of safety. A faster speed would put life at risk. The driver’s freedom is restricted by the law because the community has determined that human life is more important than someone’s need to get someplace quickly. It’s morality codified.
We now have “hate crime” laws. It isn’t bad enough that one person murders another. Now, if it can be proven that his/her crime was motivated by racism or homophobia or some other xenophobically-related dysfunctionality, the crime is even more serious. What could be more serious than murdering another human being? But apparently, someone’s “morality” has determined that if the act of murder was motivated by a xenophobic hatred, the crime is even worse. This is “morality codified.” It isn’t my morality, but it is someone’s.
How about the tax code? Why do people with more income fall into a higher tax bracket? It’s because legislators made the “moral” judgment that people who had more should pay more. Morality codified.
It isn’t “should morality be codified,” it’s “whose morality should we codify?”
I would love to sit down with you and chat sometime. I’ll bet we are probably closer in our thinking than you might expect.
If you’d like to get in touch with me, Greg L. knows me and can put you in contact.
What Mark W. Weaver said on 18 Jun 2008 at 4:10 pm:
Mark,
I certainly respect your beliefs. Twelve years of private Catholic education armed me to understand Christianity and its teachings. Fifteen years of service overseas (eight in the Far East and Five in Europe) broadened my perspective.
Your points are well taken and I certainly respect your beliefs. I have come to understand that it is one of a number of belief sets that have evolved over the past five thousand years or so. In my travels, I have noticed that a well ordered and civil society requires a few fundamental rules (or a “rule set”). most fundamental is, “don’t hurt other people or take their stuff.” Most societies, regardless of their religious or cultural underpinnings (or the lack thereof) have naturally evolved to some “rule set” that is very similar to the Ten Commandments (or, actually, derived from the same historical source over time).
Over the past Two Thousand years, this simple rule set (one of many social rule sets) have been interpreted to fit politics, greed, or a lust for power (or some combination thereof). The simple fact that there are so many rule sets and so much disagreement about the details dictate, in a free society, that we focus on those things upon which we agree and implement those things as public policy or law. At the same time, society should recognize our right to believe and practice personally those things which we personally believe insomuch as those beliefs do not infringe on the rights of others (or, simply put, don’t hurt other people or cause us to take their stuff.)
Since you appear to be a bit of a philosopher, you are probably well aware of the Natural Law upon which the Constitution of the United States was based. Natural Law dictated that each person is in fact his own “property” and that he or she has full domain over how he or she shall manage that “property.” This is also the foundation of free markets as it recognizes each individuals capacity to produce (and consume). Somewhere along the line, we lost the intent of our founding fathers and interjected laws that deny individuals full domain over their person as “property.”
There is a question of scale in public policy. For example, I don’t believe that the Country is divided over speed limits (your example). They are divided over a woman’s right to choose. Natural law actually addresses this issue as using this philosophy, a child is part of a woman’s person until birth. Regardless of your beliefs on this subject, my opinion and the intent of the framers of the Constitution (as generally accepted by Constitutional scholars) intended for this country to recognize natural law, or each person to have total domain over their person. Those who believe in the right to life are free to follow that path, those who favor the right to chose are likewise free to follow that path.
We have accepted the tax code and speed limits as the price of a civil society. We have agreed that murder, discrimination, “hate crimes”, etc. are not legitimately part of a civil society. We have not agreed on Intelligent Design vs. evolution in our educational system (I am an evolutionist and believe both may be taught), the right to life vs. the right to choose, and many other issues. A civil society (IMHO) mist agree to disagree on these issues vice legislating one group’s morality vise another’s.
The Taliban is a group who Governed a society based upon the “absolute” values that it defined. I’m sorry if it offends you; however, the Taliban enforced many of the same restrictions on society that you lamented the loss of in your earlier post. There are differences in degree. Fortunately, Democracy gave us the tools to dismantle many of those restrictions. …and, like I said in my past post, I kind of like the way things are now.
I’d love to chat. I’ll contact you at your website.
Old Soldier,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I think we share a lot of common ground and I would welcome you contacting me.
Anyone who goes by the name “Old Soldier” has got to be a pretty good guy.
It’s great (IMHO)when two people who don’t necessarily see “eye to eye” on everything can have a civil conversation.
Mark,
I was also impressed with the exchange between you and Dolph. You are rare. Not all are able to be civilized with those that have a different view.
Dolph,
Thank you, for asking the question.
Respect is always best. I am truly pleased to see it happening.
Lafayette,
Thanks for your kind words.