Driving liberals, dhimmis and illegal alien apologists absolutely insane since 2005...

Another Illegal Alien Murder

By Greg L | 17 August 2008 | Illegal Aliens, Crime, Manassas City | 114 Comments

When initial reports of the murder of Omar Florencio-Vazquez came out, the three suspects in the case bore all the hallmarks of yet another case of illegal aliens murdering a resident.  The victim was Latino, the behavior of the suspects was consistent with the behavior of ethnic-based gangs such as MS-13, and the murder happened in an area well known to be frequented by illegal aliens.  Sure enough, weeks after law enforcement authorities would have determined the immigration status of the suspects in the case, the Manassas Journal-Messenger is reporting that Sebastian Cortes-Hernandez, Jose Antonio Ontiveros, and Santos Ontiveros are being held on Immigration and Customs Enforcement detainers.  That’s about as close as we get to an admission by the liberal local media that the defendants in this case are illegal aliens, but at least we’re getting this much.

In 2007, five of the nine murder victims in Prince William County died at the hands of an illegal alien.  Manassas City resident C.J. Angelos was murdered by illegal alien MS-13 members in November, 2006 as well.  If government, at any level would just do its job to get and keep illegal aliens out of this country, these victims would be alive, making this and all the other crimes where illegal aliens murdered residents in our community 100% preventable.

Instead we end up with a consistent pattern of illegal aliens committing serious crimes in numbers far out of proportion to their population in our community, albeit apparently fewer now than even a year ago.  If only ICE would start picking some of the low hanging fruit at day laborer centers, Verizon FIOS subcontractors and moving companies in the county, we might just manage to remove illegal aliens before they manage to misinterpret “homo sapien” for “homosexual” and kill someone in a drunken rage, or some other senselessly tragic atrocity.  Not all illegal aliens are latent murderers or MS-13 gang-bangers, but clearly there’s a significant minority who are.  Having no idea who these illegal aliens are, nor the security risk they pose, ignoring their unlawful presence in our community is a recipe for tragedy that we should not be forced to accept.

The opinions expressed here are solely the views of the author, and not representative of the position of any organization, political party, doughnut shop, knitting guild, or waste recycling facility, but may be correctly attributed to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy. If anything in the above article has offended you, please click here to receive an immediate apology.

BVBL is not a charity and your support is not tax-deductible.

You can follow the discussion through the Comments feed. You can also pingback or trackback from your own site.


  1. IllegalisILLEGAL said on 17 Aug 2008 at 11:13 pm:
    Flag comment

    I’m so sick of hearing about an illegal alien mudering someone in America! Whether it’s by driving drunk or out right murder. As Greg stated, all are preventable.

    I posted this same story on another blog and of course they have ignored it. Those who’s only thought is for the poor illegals doing with out or are about to be deported are part of the problem. Why not encourage illegal’s to go home. Those groups that defend them should start funding to send them home and have them make something out of their own country’s. Use the money you are raising for them to fund political campaigns of people in their country who will help with wiping out corruption and poverty. You want something better for these people? Then help them long term!

    Americans are tired of all of the political excuses about why our laws can’t be enforced. Stop sending 48 billion to other countries to fight aids. Help OUR own people before we help the world!

  2. manassascityresident said on 18 Aug 2008 at 7:06 am:
    Flag comment

    IllegalisILLEGAL said on 17 Aug 2008 at 11:13 pm:

    AMEN! I couldn’t agree more!

  3. have you noticed? said on 18 Aug 2008 at 8:00 am:
    Flag comment

    A lot of the vacant homes in my ‘hood are being bought up, on the cheap I am sure, by younger families who seem intent on staying put and becoming a part of the community. All this with no help from Uncle Sam. Gives one hope for the future. Why do we need government expensive bail outs I wonder?

  4. anon said on 18 Aug 2008 at 9:03 am:
    Flag comment

    I like this part:

    “Cortes-Hernandez was previously deported to Mexico in 2003.”

    Wake up America.

  5. Arlington Minority said on 18 Aug 2008 at 10:00 am:
    Flag comment

    The most effective action one can take to make the case that, as willful enablers of these perpetrators, the likes of Connolly and Tejada have the blood of victims on their hands, along with employers who selfishly undermine our labor market purely for monetary gain.

  6. Flavius Maximus said on 18 Aug 2008 at 10:04 am:
    Flag comment

    Drove by the Coverstone 7/11, and the illegal day-laborers are back in force. I am wondering if a re-infiltration is under way.

  7. Marie said on 18 Aug 2008 at 10:28 am:
    Flag comment

    There is little if any evidence of a proclivity to crime among unauthorized immigrants. To make such a claim based on a some horrific incident, or even on the basis of multiple criminal incidents, doesn’t amount to proof of anything - other than the potential of human beings to do evil.

    That doesn’t mean that our immigration system doesn’t need to be fixed. Our immigration laws should bar criminals from entering the country in the first place or deport immigrants convicted of serious offenses after admission. ICE has done little to hold up its end of the bargain i.e. ICE detainers. Let’s not confuse the two issues. Stigmatizing unauthorized immigrants, the vast majority of whom are hard-working and law-abiding, doesn’t solve urban crime problems; nor does it address the flaws in our immigration system.

    When legal avenues to migrate are limited, when native birth rates are low and economies are healthy, illegal immigration will grow. The cure for the problem of illegal immigration is to establish a realistic immigration system and to bring the undocumented population out of the shadows through some type of earned legalization program. Thumping up irrational fears of criminal behavior and turning the undocumented into pariahs are not in our nation’s or community’s best interest.

    Why not focus on the victim and the families who are grieving instead of giving attention to the criminal?

  8. Brian Leeper said on 18 Aug 2008 at 10:44 am:
    Flag comment

    We tried an amnesty program in 1986. How well did it work?

  9. jfk said on 18 Aug 2008 at 10:50 am:
    Flag comment

    Marie said on 18 Aug 2008 at 10:28 am:
    There is little if any evidence of a proclivity to crime among unauthorized immigrants. To make such a claim based on a some horrific incident, or even on the basis of multiple criminal incidents, doesn’t amount to proof of anything - other than the potential of human beings to do evil.”

    This is a dumb statement, only made true by the fact that we don’t even know how many people are in our country illegally!
    However, I think it reasonable to beleive that, when individuals knowingly breaks a law (r.e. illegal entry to the US) without any reprocussions, there is a proclivity to break additional laws. Perhaps not murder, but other “victimless crimes” such as shoplifting, drunk driving, littering, or tax evasion can be conducted without fear of significant punishment. These are crimes that the majority of citizens would not do, out of fear of gettting a police record or public humiliation.

    If the punishment for murder is simply deportation, then many individuals inclined to violence have no impediment to committing the crime.

  10. Marie said on 18 Aug 2008 at 10:51 am:
    Flag comment

    The program, although, it had benefits did not solve the problem with illegal immigration. Sealing the borders and ports would be a step in the right direction. Why is the government reluctant to do that. And, what does the 1986 amnesty program have to do with crime and criminals?

  11. Vigilant1 said on 18 Aug 2008 at 10:56 am:
    Flag comment

    Marie said on 18 Aug 2008 at 10:28 am:
    There is little if any evidence of a proclivity to crime among unauthorized immigrants. To make such a claim based on a some horrific incident, or even on the basis of multiple criminal incidents, doesn’t amount to proof of anything - other than the potential of human beings to do evil.

    There are too many of the “incidents” involving ILLEGAL ALIENS to ignore. These crimes comitted by ILLEGALS DOES prove that they have more than a “potential” to do evil.

  12. Dan Cooper said on 18 Aug 2008 at 11:01 am:
    Flag comment


    You had me all the way up until the last paragraph.
    I thought you were going to make sense for a moment.
    When the illegal made a conscious decision to enter the US without authorization, or to overstay, they became criminals. When they come here illegally, then have their babies here (at our expense), they are still illegal. They do not belong here and they need to go home immediately, and take their anchor babies also.

    As for focusing on the victims and their families, we do that! Every time we read about these acts in the news, every time we attend a murder trial, we grieve for the victims and families.

  13. LOVE THE USA said on 18 Aug 2008 at 11:02 am:
    Flag comment

    What Marie seems to forget is illegal aliens are not allowed in our counrty in the first place! If they were not here these crimes would not have been committed by them. How do you get this though someone thick head?

  14. Dan Cooper said on 18 Aug 2008 at 11:15 am:
    Flag comment


    I’d like to add that as for the victims, if you were paying attention you might have noticed that BVBL showed much compassion for the young girl bludgeoned and stabbed to death by the young man (read animal) in her Manassas Park bedroom several months ago. Both of those individuals were here illegally from southern countries. Had either one of those not come here illegally they both might have had a chance in life in their home country. Now however, one young girl dead, one man in a US prison.

    Let’s not feel so sorry for these people who come here illegally, let’s send them back where they came from before they make the news here, either as a criminal or victim. This would be for their benefit, not just a selfish move on our part.

    Nuf 4 now………

  15. Arlington Minority said on 18 Aug 2008 at 11:26 am:
    Flag comment

    Marie does make a valid point that sealing the border would aid the fight against giving criminal aliens unhindered opportunities to prey among local populations, but this does not relieve local authorities from their legal and moral duties to protect against a 100% preventable threat.

  16. Rick Bentley said on 18 Aug 2008 at 12:15 pm:
    Flag comment

    Brian, the 1986 Amnesty worked great if you’re a business owner looking for cheap labor. It directly lead to 15 million or who knows how many more illegal workers flooding our country, to the point that they’ve taken over whole industries. With polls showing that half of Mexicans think about coming here illegally depending on conditions, the next wave in could be even bigger - we could cut wages in this country to peanuts for unskilled positions.

    Of course, if you don’t happen to own a business it’s not so great.

  17. Brian Leeper said on 18 Aug 2008 at 12:17 pm:
    Flag comment

    “what does the 1986 amnesty program have to do with crime and criminals?”

    About as much as an “earned legalization program” does.

  18. Brian Leeper said on 18 Aug 2008 at 12:19 pm:
    Flag comment

    “Of course, if you don’t happen to own a business it’s not so great.”

    It’s also not so great if you happen to own a business and you want to operate legally. Seems like you just cannot compete with those willing to break the law to increase their profit.

  19. /\/\3|)iç 64 (Winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award) said on 18 Aug 2008 at 1:22 pm:
    Flag comment


    You are naive to the real world aren’t you?

    1) They are NOT law abiding if they entered the country ILLEGALLY
    This is evident when they obtain ILLEGAL documents to work here
    2) There is a reason why legal avenues are limited
    The legal path is narrow because this gives those here LEGALLY a job and the ability to earn a living.
    3) There is a reason why native birthrates are low
    Many practice birth control because they can only afford so many children, but when handouts are given to “anchor babies” as US citizens, which benefits the ILLEGAL crowd, this prevents any desire to have only the number of children you can afford to support.
    4) The 14th amendment was NOT designed to give US citizenship to the babies of ILLEGAL aliens (not undocumented, unauthorized or any other PC term one uses).

    You see Marie, folks like you are the reason many like myself are tired of the invasion of the ILLEGAL aliens. There should NOT be a program to draw them from the shadows, there should be a program to remove them permanently.

    You see, I have a reason to speak this way since I was separated from my family for over 3 months while they were in the Philippines trying to get LEGAL documents to immigrate to the US. Even though my daughter was a US citizen, she was with her mother (now ex wife), a Filipino citizen and her brother, a Filipino citizen, waiting in Manila for the paperwork to come through. I have every right to demand that ALL follow the path to citizenship.

    We give them 90 days to put their affairs in order and voluntarily leave. If they do not and are found, they are deported IMMEDIATELY as well as ALL of their family members. NO QUESTIONS ASKED!!!!! They were given 90 days to make things right.

  20. Bridget said on 18 Aug 2008 at 1:30 pm:
    Flag comment

    Exactly right, Brian Leeper.

    My eldest son worked for a small construction company during his freshman year in college. The work was primarily outdoor paving and pool building.

    By the summer of his sophomore year, his boss sat him down to explain that he was being let go due to just the sort of competition you mention…companies that undercut wages and avoid playing by the rules. My son’s boss was kind enough to call me to explain that it had nothing to do with my kids performance on the job … and everything to do with his competition hiring and paying under the table.

  21. Rick Bentley said on 18 Aug 2008 at 1:43 pm:
    Flag comment

    Very good point BL, thanks.

  22. DeMann said on 18 Aug 2008 at 3:04 pm:
    Flag comment

    I hope that senorita MARIE realizes that she misses the point completely and that has been reinforced with many other readers. The point is not whether  illegal aliens kill at a higher (or lower) rate than the rest of society, the point is that they should NOT even be here to commit that crime.

    We have enough murders in our country without having illegal coming in  and trying to increase that number. I feel much safer with illegals staying in their country and commiting crimes there. I guess that commiting crimes is that better life (to them) that that come to the U.S. to fulfill.

  23. Anonymous said on 18 Aug 2008 at 3:46 pm:
    Flag comment

    IT’S IN THE GENES!!!!!


  24. DPortM said on 18 Aug 2008 at 3:50 pm:
    Flag comment


    As usual, your post is right on point. I completely agree!

  25. freedom said on 18 Aug 2008 at 3:58 pm:
    Flag comment

    …and Marie, there are millions and millions of very poor people in this world. It would be wonderful if all of these “hard working people” had a better life, and I’m talking about those in Africa, Asia, parts of Europe and all of Latin America. Do you honestly believe that we can absorb them all? We simply can’t! …and if we can’t absorb them ALL to give them ALL the American dream, then why just those across the border to the south who “demand rights”?

    As has been said many, many times before — in this country, we welcome the legal immigrants from all over the world — and we all know some of them that we have helped integrate. However, those who can not or choose not to comply with our laws need to learn how to fish. We can help them, but we simply don’t have enough fish to feed, educate and medicate them all. How difficult is THAT to comprehend?

  26. LOVE THE USA said on 18 Aug 2008 at 4:32 pm:
    Flag comment

    I would suggest again, that Marie and people that think like her raise money themselves and hand it over to the people in South America. Maybe they will try to make thier countries a better place to live.

    It isn’t America’s fault that these contries don’t put any emphisis on education. I am sick and tired of people that support illegals being here telling fellow Americans that we are breaking families apart, they are just hard working people, they want a better life, etc. Do that back home in your country of origin. Not here in the U.S.A. where you are not wanted!

  27. Big Dog said on 18 Aug 2008 at 4:48 pm:
    Flag comment

    Good post freedom - how many people do you let
    on the ship before it starts to sink from the extra weight?
    How many poor and uneducated can a country like
    the USA in 2008 absorb before the exsisting poor
    and middle class begin to go under? Who cares about them?

    As far as the terrible murder - who pays for that?
    Who pays the police overtime?
    Who pays for the hospital cost?
    Who pays for the court cost?
    Who pays for the Georgetown South neigborhood
    getting another bad rap?

    Certainly not the “macho” illegal alien blasting a man in
    the back or the perp’s pals.

    Who pays? The citizens of Manassas City.

  28. starryflights said on 18 Aug 2008 at 5:03 pm:
    Flag comment

    I am seeing tagging in my neighborhood now. A house is being fixed up and someone tagged right on the house. The other day I saw some on a wooden fence. If these are illegal alien gang members, I WANT THEM DEPORTED! Is there ANYONE out there in public office that will get this done? We should not have to worry about gangs and houses being tagged in our neighborhoods. I am disgusted! Thank goodness for HSM!

  29. Che' said on 18 Aug 2008 at 5:11 pm:
    Flag comment

    Quit writing a friggin’ poem all the time, BD.

  30. /\/\3|)iç 64 (Winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award) said on 18 Aug 2008 at 5:13 pm:
    Flag comment


    Thanks, I try to be on point. I just get aggravated when people think it is ok for America to absorb all of these people. As some have said, how many people can the ship carry before it is overloaded?

    I really hope Marie can see the error of her thinking and come around from the dark side. I am sure she will not because it seems that no matter how we try to educate those of her mindset, it seems we are wasting our bytes and time.

    I would love to have all of those who support the ILLEGAL aliens, to really have to SUPPORT the ILLEGAL aliens, in that they feed them, clothe them, provide medical care and a job to pay them. This comes out of their PERSONAL pocket, not mine since I have no desire to support these people. Now I am not saying that Mexicans are the only ILLEGAL aliens, I speak of ALL those in the US ILLEGALLY!!!!

  31. /\/\3|)iç 64 (Winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award) said on 18 Aug 2008 at 5:17 pm:
    Flag comment

    Big Dog,

    You are right!! The residents of the city will pay for all of those items listed!! If outside resources are used, such as the FBI crime lab, then I wind up paying for it as well!! It seems to me that action is needed by the political parties, notice I didn’t single only one out, to get off of their asses and get this problem solved. They want a special session for the congress, then let’s add this to their agenda!!

    I have been reading some of the links posted and I am a bit disturbed about the Pickens / Pelosi agenda currently being touted as the next coming of energy independence for the US. I think we need to look into this a bit more and see how it is connected to the NAU. One person or company should not be in charge of all the utilities.

  32. Big Dog said on 18 Aug 2008 at 5:25 pm:
    Flag comment

    Blog de plume in honor of a marxist guerilla that died
    fourty years ago? Have you read about him or
    did you just see the name on a lib’s t-shirt and decided
    it must mean somebody interesting?

    White space (or on BVBL - black space) is used
    often to gain attention to a subject. But thanks
    for believing it was poetry - I’m honored.

  33. elvis said on 18 Aug 2008 at 6:19 pm:
    Flag comment

    definitely a common thread here. I went ahead and posted this stuff over on the anti board, should stir those babies up a little.

    they sit on the fence and advocate people like this that attack our society all while they sit in their nice comfortable haymarket homes. If there is anyone I despise more than the illegal aliens it’s the people like alanna and elena who support and silently (if not vocally) advocate them while they trash our society. This is sick folks, this is un-american! I know victims of illegal alien crime and it’s horrible, it’s made even more horrible when the criminal cannot be brought to justice because he/she has escaped to their home country, doesnt have insurance, etc. the only people who lose are the victims. Alanna and Elena will not talk about that, only about how things need to be “reformed”. Well, I’m all for reform! when the illegal aliens are all deported we can talk about immigration reform, until then the only option is to rid our country of them. We’ll be better off for it in the end.

  34. Marcie Harris said on 18 Aug 2008 at 6:25 pm:
    Flag comment

    Medic, it is obvious that Marie hasn’t yet been touched by the flop houses
    or the neighborhoods being trashed. I have absolutely NO desire to have
    their “culture” shoved down my throat, and I join you in expressing
    discontent with the situation we find ourselves in, thanks to the failure of
    our administration to put a strangle hold on illegal immigration. Perhaps
    Marie is among the illegals. If this is the case, I wonder how many anchor
    babies she has provided us to contend with?

    Big Dog, I think your comments are great, be they poetry or just good
    common sense!

  35. Marie said on 18 Aug 2008 at 6:27 pm:
    Flag comment

    No, I do not think that the US can absorb anyone and everyone who wants to come live and work here. What I do believe is the borders and ports need to be sealed. That is the first step in combating illegal immigration. After that is accomplished then we can begin to work on the other issues regarding immigration.

    There is one thing I have learned about BVBL. If one expresses a different opinion then the person is labeled dumb, naive, etc. What about respecting differing views? I read this blog to see if there is anything new I can learn and to evaluate other views and perspectives and check them against my own. I can see those with differing views are not welcome here.

  36. Anonymous said on 18 Aug 2008 at 6:42 pm:
    Flag comment

    elvis said “definitely a common thread here. I went ahead and posted this stuff over on the anti board, should stir those babies up a little.”

    No, it won’t stir them up. They just continue to make one excuse after another such as this crime isn’t any worse than crimes committed by citizens, etc. There’s no getting through to them. I wouldn’t waste my time on the anti blog - anyone who doesn’t agree with them is labeled as a racist, a Nazi, a nativist, etc.

  37. Anonymous said on 18 Aug 2008 at 6:46 pm:
    Flag comment

    And then there’s kghotthardt - who’s threatening to go to the 7-11 the next time HSM is there and make a citizen’s arrest of HSM member for some made-up reason of hers! They get crazier and crazier on the anti site! Someone ought to go arrest her!

  38. manassascityresident said on 18 Aug 2008 at 6:50 pm:
    Flag comment

    Marie said on 18 Aug 2008 at 6:27 pm:

    Marie -
    I laughed out loud when I read your comment!
    Talk about a blog not wanting differing views……how about that “other” site you comment on? They do EXACTLY what you claim BVBL does. How does it feel? BVBL doesn’t come close to the anti site when it comes to chasing people off for differing views. That’s why they only have 10 people who go back and forth on there - because they all agree with each other and kiss each others a$$e$ all day long. They’ve chased everyone else off.
    Hello kettle.

  39. manassascityresident said on 18 Aug 2008 at 6:57 pm:
    Flag comment

    PS - HEY ELVIS - nice to hear from you!!!!!!!!!!

  40. Colonial83 said on 18 Aug 2008 at 7:05 pm:
    Flag comment

    Marie said on 18 Aug 2008 at 6:27 pm:
    There is one thing I have learned about BVBL. If one expresses a different opinion then the person is labeled dumb, naive, etc. What about respecting differing views?

    And, Marie, there is one thing I have learned about anti-BVBL that keeps ME from posting there. If one expresses a different opinion then the person is labeled racist, Nazi, nativist, hate bunny, Greg clone, etc. What about respecting differing views?

    Love how they gang up against people and then pat each other on the back for their hateful, mean-spirited attacks. Oh, and they will publish your IP address if they can’t find another way to defend their nonsense.

    I can’t wait to get arrested by kgotthardt.

  41. New Dawn said on 18 Aug 2008 at 7:10 pm:
    Flag comment

    I have read some of the anti blog and I find it very disturbing. I would never post over there becase I wouldn’t survive the attacks. They may say what ever they want, but they are 10 times worse than any blog I have seen with the name calling. There is pure hatred over there for Greg, Corey, FAIR, Help Save Manassas, and generally anyone who has a differing view point.

  42. Colonial83 said on 18 Aug 2008 at 7:18 pm:
    Flag comment

    I’ve seen posters complain over there about being attacked. They get told they should be grateful, because the anti s are so much nicer than bvbl when they are slandering someone. It’s their sandbox, though, and all five of them can have it all to themselves. Gotthardt makes it even more of a joke than it usually is.

  43. monticup said on 18 Aug 2008 at 10:07 pm:
    Flag comment

    Marie is trying to spread the canard that the crime rate amongst illegal aliens is no higher than in the larger community. That is an outright lie.

    Of course the crime rate is higher–the illegals are drawn from the very bottom of society. They are ignorant, illiterate and uneducated. Crime is a way of life for them. They do not care about property rights. The age of consent in Mexico is 12 (!). Does Marie actually believe that these losers, who may well be criminals in their home countries, magically lose their criminal tendencies when they are on US soil? What idiocy.

  44. anon143 said on 18 Aug 2008 at 10:18 pm:
    Flag comment

    All I can say is thank God they are the minority….all five of them….the wackiest of the wackos!

  45. Red, White and Blue said on 18 Aug 2008 at 10:54 pm:
    Flag comment

    The continuing barage of illegals, the Congressional idiots who support them, a President who is blind to them, the 2 presidential candidates who embrace them to varying degrees, the minor criminal element along with the major criminal that is influxed at the same time adding the babies they are making will change the demographics of this country forever in 2 generations or sooner.

    When you look at Mexico, El Salvador and some other Central American countries, I see true third world, governments, police and federal forces so corrupt they make our Congress look like upstart kindergarteners. Their educational system is a joke; drugs and crime are a part of life. Yet many come here clinging to their homeland, not America despite the great advantages we have to offer and they have so blantantly usurped.

    Being an Illegal is a crime. Stealing identities is a crime. Public uriniation and littering is a crime. Working for sub-wages can be a crime and the employers who hire them are certainly criminals- nothing less! I wonder how many employers wave a flag, go to the fireworks on the 4th of July, vote and have pride in their country when, in fact, they are ALL Benedict Arnold’s, Toyko Rose’s, and Esau’s. Illegals need to caught and shipped back IMMEDIATELY. Employers who hire them need to be fined out of business and jailed.

    I don’t give one hoot about Illegals “rights”. Send them all back. If the government kept up raids, the exodus would be begin. I don’t understand why ICE miserably fails to show up at the Coverstone 7/11 and round them up.

    That is my immigration plan. It is called ENFORCING THE LAWS ON THE BOOKS. I also agree, why send some African nation $48 billion dollars which is probably sent to some corrupt goevernment when we could use it right here at home to clean up the illegals? What a bunch of dummies in Washington and we are a bunch of dummies if we continue to let them do it. Throw the bums out!

  46. Greg L said on 19 Aug 2008 at 12:37 am:
    Flag comment

    Monticup, I understand your frustration and outrage, but try to refrain from characterizing all illegal aliens as nascent criminals. Some are, but it would appear that they’re a pretty small minority. With somewhere around 12 million illegal aliens in the US by conservative estimates, if they were all predisposed to criminal behavior we’d be far worse off than we are. There are about 300,000 illegal aliens in Virginia, and we certainly don’t have a crime explosion that such numbers would create.

    A big problem however is that of those 300,000 we have no idea who they are. Among them are certainly some of the worst folks you could imagine from both a crime and a national security perspective. In order to ensure these bad actors aren’t present, the lawful deportation of as many illegal aliens as possible is a way to ensure we remove those who pose the most significant threat as well as (perhaps more significantly) discourage other bad actors from unlawfully entering the country.

    If we cannot control our borders, we are no longer a sovereign nation, and our democracy is in grave peril. As we seek to do so, we have to be certain that what we ask for is reasoned and responsible. We can’t do that very well by saying all illegal aliens are invariably rapists and murderers without undermining our arguments. There’s enough provable and unambiguous data out there to support our arguments without stretching so much, and in ways that can become counterproductive.

    We have to maintain a higher standard than anyone else, and while it might not be fair, that’s just how it is. Let’s do our best to be better than those arguing the other side.

  47. zeezil said on 19 Aug 2008 at 8:17 am:
    Flag comment

    Illegal aliens have a unique, gangster-style vision of the American Dream. In their corrupt minds, they think it makes perfect sense, both logically and morally, to ignore America’s borders, immigration laws, and income tax laws in order to pursue a far greater objective. They f eel entitled to pursue their own personal enrichment at the expense of the American citizen, worker and taxpayer.

  48. zeezil said on 19 Aug 2008 at 8:18 am:
    Flag comment

    Illegal aliens are killing more Americans than the Iraq war, says a report from Family Security Matters that estimates some 2,158 murders are committed every year by illegal aliens in the U.S. The group says that number is more than 15 percent of all the murders reported by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the U.S. and about three times the representation of illegal aliens in the general population.
    The report from FSM estimates that the 267,000 illegal aliens currently incarcerated in the nation are responsible for nearly 1,300,000 crimes, ranging from drug arrests to rape and murder. Such statistics debunk the claim that illegal immigration is a victimless crime. http://www.gopusa.com/news/2007/february/0222_illegals_report.shtml

  49. zeezil said on 19 Aug 2008 at 8:20 am:
    Flag comment

    The 2004 estimate of the illegal alien population (12 million) is ancient history. The Pew Hispanic Research Center is headed by NPR / New York Times / CFR types. Perhaps you trust their “12 million” estimate, unchanging and frozen in time. I don’t.

    The only available accurate count - not an estimate - of illegal aliens is the Arizona Border Control Initiative in the summer of 2004, which used three unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV’s or reconnaissance drones) to count travelers crossing the border illegally in the Tucson Sector. 698,200 illegal aliens were counted but not apprehended. This three month total in one of the nine Border Patrol sectors indicates that, at the end of summer, 2007, there are now 34 million illegal aliens in the U.S.

    Therefore, 11% of the population account for 32% of the prison population. If you still hang onto the hope that there are only 12 million illegal aliens in the U.S., then 4% of the population account for 32% of the prison population.
    Illegal aliens commit more crimes per capita than everyone else. . .
    from 4 to 11½ times as many, depending on your choice of population estimates.

    That is not racism. That is not xenophobia. That is not bigotry. That is not nativism. That is not biased. That is FACT.

  50. elvis said on 19 Aug 2008 at 9:00 am:
    Flag comment


    Thanks, it’s good to be over here. seems as the clear majority does not want illegal aliens in this country, I’m with that majority. The anti site declares reform, but only if illegals are left alone. I dont agree, can never agree, to that. There is a reason why they are called “illegal” it’s because they should not be here. It’s pretty clear to me that they have shifted their stance from reform, to outright amnesty in some cases. Just like 9500 liberty did. The blog is basically a front for 9500 liberty in most cases and incidentally why do they host their “economy parties” at hispanic immigrant establishments (like they are the only people that need an economic boost).

    in any case folks, have a great day.

  51. Mando said on 19 Aug 2008 at 9:11 am:
    Flag comment

    Colonial83 said:

    “If one expresses a different opinion then the person is labeled racist, Nazi, nativist, hate bunny, Greg clone, etc. What about respecting differing views?”

    You forgot that the majority of them are far and removed from the problem in their segregated communities. The definition of hypocracy. The “let them eat cake” attitude permeates the threads yet is hidden stealthly under a cover of sympathy. They are impossible to relate to and take seriously when they’re so out of touch. I don’t even bother anymore. It’s futile.

  52. DeMann said on 19 Aug 2008 at 9:27 am:
    Flag comment

    Over hear in Herndon, Va., you can pick up the Herndon Observer on a weekly basis and review the crime activity. Pretty close to 100% is ALWAYS in the hispanic neighborhoods. They may be legal, or illegal, but whichever why is their neighborhood always the crime riden area. Check out Florida Ave, Alabama Ave and Elden Street crime on a weekly basis, that is where the crime will always be.

    In regards to segregated neighborhoods MANDO, because of overcrowding in houses, the illegals have the ability to move into the middle - middle/upper class neighborhoods. All they need is that sympathic person that wants to make MONEY and rent to 12 illegals. I have seen it in my own neighborhood where they have brought roosters, grow corn in the front yard, have 8 cars parked in front of the house and do not maintain their property like the true homeowners do.

  53. Che' said on 19 Aug 2008 at 9:39 am:
    Flag comment

    Big Dog said on 18 Aug 2008 at 5:25 pm:
    “Blog de plume in honor of a marxist guerilla that died
    fourty years ago? Have you read about him or
    did you just see the name on a lib’s t-shirt and decided
    it must mean somebody interesting?

    White space (or on BVBL - black space) is used
    often to gain attention to a subject. But thanks
    for believing it was poetry - I’m honored.”

    Looks to me like you are trying to write Haiku on acid. But, hey, it’s a free country. If this is a technique for you to draw attention to yourself, more power to you. I get it now.

    I am the ghost of Che’, and I’ve seen the error of my ways now. That’s why I post on this blog-to make fun of the libs and open border buffoons and bring a little humor to the subject once in a while. Everyone on this site seems to get their tighty whitey’s in a bunch way too often.

  54. Maureen said on 19 Aug 2008 at 9:45 am:
    Flag comment

    DeMann, That is the same problems we have in our area. That is why HSM got started. Just like HSH got started. It is unfortunate that our neighborhoods have to suffer so much before people are willing to take action.

    But at least we are trying to solve the problem not just bit@# about it like so many others do.

  55. elvis said on 19 Aug 2008 at 10:04 am:
    Flag comment

    if there is anything that I “hate” it’s being a victim of crime by an illegal alien. I’ve been involved in the experiences of others who have thus suffered and it’s pitiful. from the woman who got a mortgage in anothers name to the person who is knifed by an illegal I’ve seen it all. been involved in lawsuits against illegals attempting to recover moneys lost and all were winners with judgements, but how can you enforce a judgement against someone who’s off the grid? answer is you cannot, they have no assets and are not citizens. This is ludicrous how people like alanna and elena support these folks, I’ll rephrase..they support the pool of people that these folks come from and that is just as bad. Remove the pool of people and you remove the incidents of these crimes happening. It’s really that simple.

  56. Mando said on 19 Aug 2008 at 10:05 am:
    Flag comment

    DeMann said:

    “In regards to segregated neighborhoods MANDO, because of overcrowding in houses, the illegals have the ability to move into the middle - middle/upper class neighborhoods.”

    I agree. But until that happens in their neighborhoods, it will be the same song and dance over there.

  57. /\/\3|)iç 64 (Winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award) said on 19 Aug 2008 at 10:33 am:
    Flag comment


    It isn’t that we do not welcome differing opinions, it is that some of the opinions do not meet muster. Think about it for a moment, if you allow all of the ILLEGAL aliens in the US to be absorbed into this country, what signal does that send to others. Just like children, well you let Jimmy do it, why can’t I?

    We have to have consequences for actions. This has gone by the wayside in response to political correctness. We can no longer punish our children for doing something wrong. The school can no longer punish the children for doing something wrong. The ILLEGAL aliens can not be punished for doing something wrong. This is the problem with amnesty, no consequences for the actions of others. I firmly believe that if we start hanging people at high noon for murder, it will start to decrease. If we start cutting off the fingers of thieves, it will start to decrease. Again, consequences for actions. My children had consequences for their actions just as I did while growing up. Guess what, I went on to serve my country, just as my step son did. I didn’t get a girl pregnant at a young age, just as none of my children have children out of wedlock. I didn’t smoke dope, just as none of my children do. I have never been in jail, just as none of my children have. I have not been in trouble with the law outside of a fast driving award, just as my children have not.

    The point is, they knew there were consequences for their actions. We have to return to this philosophy IMMEDIATELY!!!

    The problems we have in schools can be directly related to the fact that teachers can not do anything to the students. Believe me I hear it from my mother, who is a teacher at a school for the “troubled students”. They threaten her and she has no recourse to do anything about it.

    Once the consequences are put back into the equation, only then will we see a different America.


    I agree the relationship that Bush had with Mexico has clouded his judgment on ILLEGAL aliens. He should have secured the border rigt after 9/11 and left it closed until further notice.

    I think we should bring all of our troops home, place them on our border and secure America. I guarantee the ILLEGAL aliens will think twice about crossing the border once a Humvee with a mounted machine gun and sharpshooting Marie are in their field of view!!!

  58. edwardg said on 19 Aug 2008 at 11:03 am:
    Flag comment

    Marie.. Would you be so compassionate if 12 to 34 million White Irish came into this country illegaly? And took a posture of anywhere between genuine humility and , and a posture of haughtiness, murderous posturing , and perverse inimidation. While totally ignoring the rule of law to enter a foreign country,and basically every existing law. With the love of money so rooted in their hearts ,that those who are americans don’t even matter . I don’t think youd support their illegal prescence……But, since they are hispanic ,its all ok for you. I basically worked construction from 1971 to 2005, and most construction jobs were usually balanced racially. Over the years ,more and more hispanics were present. It was understandable, in the years after the war in El Salvador. But , now we have “en masse”. ,an exceedingly large population of illegal hispanics, who have “invited themslves to the party”, and refuse to leave no matter what we say. And presidential hopefuls ,who are somehow blind to the reallity of this invasion….Construction is a feast and famine industry. Sooner or later the bottom will drop out. Wont it be wonderful with almost every illegal out of work. Or, would it be ok if they were all Haitian? America , historically, has shown compassion on immigrants . But, these hispanics, have made themselves unwelcome , because truly their motivation is not as innocent as they would have us believe.. I dont accept their illegal presence or the lies they breath out.. Its kind of like disturbing the peace of a nation on a grand scale …think about it.

  59. rebelreggie said on 19 Aug 2008 at 12:04 pm:
    Flag comment

    August 17, 2008
    Connecting the Dots
    Immigration, Issues, Boulder, Denver
    The Approaching “Human Katrina” of poverty, misery and overpopulation, but so what?
    Posted by thunderhorse
    By Frosty Wooldridge

    Re: “A majority minority nation-but so what?” Chavez/DP/8/17/08

    Aristotle said, “Tolerance and apathy are the first signs of a dying society.”

    Linda Chavez noted in Sunday’s DP column that by 2042, the United States transforms from a majority nation to a minority dominated nation. She said, “Hispanics, Asians and blacks will outnumber whites by 32 million…but so what?”

    That new minority-majority arrives from merciless, relentless and massive immigration from poor, destitute, third world countries. Chavez asks, “But so what?” We must answer that question with sobering realities we face as a civilization.

    The March PEW Report noted the USA will add 138 million people by 2050. Source: “Immigration to Play Lead Role in U.S Population Growth from 2005 to 2050, Pew Research Study Finds”
    If current trends continue, the population of the United States will rise to 438 million in 2050, from 296 million in 2005, and 82% of the increase will be due to immigrants arriving from 2005 to 2050 and their U.S.-born descendants, according to new projections developed by the Pew Research Center.

    Colorado’s own Dr. Albert Bartlett adds his wisdom to the debate over overpopulation Our own “Can you think of any problem in any area of human endeavor on any scale, from the microscopic to global, whose long-term solution is in any demonstrable way aided, assisted, or advanced by further increases in population, locally, nationally, or globally?”

    As I’ve noted many times, no one at the highest levels of leadership or journalism understands our accelerating overpopulation dilemma. They ignore it at all costs. Yet, it will cost us our civilization’s ability to function. Mark my words as I’ve seen what’s coming in my world travels.

    That new minority-majority represents a new and profoundly poorer America where education falters today only to be exacerbated by millions in the coming years. It means our middle class cannot survive against cheap labor, falling wages and loss of standard of living. We see it today with 28 million Americans on food stamps. Source: “As Jobs Vanish and Prices Rise, Food Stamp Use Nears Record”
    “But recent rises in many states appear to be resulting mainly from the economic slowdown, officials and experts say, as well as inflation in prices of basic goods that leave more families feeling pinched. Citing expected growth in unemployment, the Congressional Budget Office this month projected a continued increase in the monthly number of recipients in the next fiscal year, starting Oct. 1 — to 28 million, up from 27.8 million in 2008, and 26.5 million in 2007.”

    We see it with millions of immigrant children utilizing free education their parents can’t pay for, free breakfast and lunch programs paid for by American citizens. We see it in 76 percent high school failure rates by immigrants in high schools in Detroit, Michigan as reported by NBC’s Brian Williams. Many other large American cities cities feature similar failure rates.

    Source: http://www.city-data.com/forum/michigan/295284-boy-detroit-high-schools-only-graduate-2.html

    “But so what?” Chavez said.

    The National Coalition for the Homeless, www.nationalhomeless.org reported 3.5 million homeless people struggled for survival in the streets of America in 2006. Of that number, 1.35 million consist of homeless children. Reports show 13 million American children suffer daily from malnutrition and hunger in America. A shocking 37 million Americans live below the poverty line, which is 12.7 percent of our population.

    Twelve to as many as 20 million illegal aliens residing in America make up the largest high school drop out population in the history of the nation.

    Illegitimate birth rates skyrocket in hospitals across the country causing horrific costs to American taxpayers.

    “But so what?” Chavez said.

    Can we deal with a massive and growing illiterate population? How will we contend countless Americans featuring scant educational skills? How will we deal with millions of babies from their ranks? If we can’t educate half of our own minorities, how will we educate this massive overload of humanity?

    To give you a harsh view of our future, I’ve traveled throughout Mexico. On the outskirts of Mexico City with 22 million people, in excess of two million people live in cardboard shacks. They squat for their morning constitutional with their chickens. They live in abject misery, filth, disease and hopelessness.

    Guess what? They’re moving to America. Millions of them!

    Third world slums began appearing along our borders from Brownsville, Texas to San Diego, California in the 80s. They’re called “Colonias,” which in Spanish means “new neighborhoods.” They feature shacks, no sewers, no streets, no running water, no electricity, toilet facilities or waste pickup.

    The New York Times, March 3, 1988, “Along the US Border, a Third World is Reborn,” reported, “Colonias are rusted trailers and shacks nailed together from tar paper and packing pallets without indoor toilets…with mounds of uncollected trash that attract rats…the lack of sanitation has polluted the ground water to the point where many residents drink their own waste…the colonias feature Third World levels of hepatitis, dysentery, diarrhea, skin rashes, cholera and tuberculosis…they are contaminated, explosive, fecal, filthy, illegal, miserable, polluted, powder kegs, putrid, shocking, sick, stench filled, suffering and wrenching.”

    Since their appearance in the early 80s, according to the Times: “The 1988 population totaled 185,000; the 1995 population exceeded 500,000; the 2005 population exceeded 1.5 million. At the current rate of growth, these human misery settlements shall reach 20 million by 2021.”

    I spent two weeks filming colonias in Texas. I haven’t been as sickened to my stomach since my travels in Asia. It’s worse than any description the New York Times or I could give you. Colonias represent human misery at its disturbing worst levels.

    These slums represent a health hazard of unprecedented dimensions. Given enough time, large areas of southern California will resemble the outskirts of Mexico City. Two decades of denial continues the expansion of American “colonias.”

    “But so what?” Chavez said.

    We cannot import millions of desperately poor, illiterate and hard working people from Third World countries and think they will become functioning, positive aspects in a First World country. Holland, France and Great Britain’s immigration policies fail on every level. Ours does, too!

    What about our working poor? What about degraded educational opportunities for our children?

    As we choke on millions of people from other countries, they displace our working poor as immigrants depress wages. What are we creating? A permanent poor class! In reality, a growing and dangerous slave class!

    As it stands today, millions of Americans can’t pay for heating and electricity bills. They rely on donations by other Americans to cover those bills. At some point, as this new poor class expands into millions upon millions—something will fail. What is that? Our ability to deal with it or solve it!

    The American Dream degrades into the American Nightmare

    Former Colorado Governor Lamm said, “We are the only country in history to change its ethnic makeup, and history has few examples of ‘diversity’ creating a stable society.”

    As we import millions of poor into our country to become the new majority-minority—we cheat our children and our civilization out of any chance for a viable, stable or sustainable future—for all races, creeds and colors.

    One lady I interviewed said, “We’ll be no different than the misery, suffering and human nightmare that now makes up India. We are becoming another India. I feel sorry for my grandchildren.”

    “But so what?” said Chevez.

    Take action: www.numbersusa.com ; www.thesocialcontract.com ; www.fairus.org ; www.frostywooldridge.com ; www.cairco.org

  60. freedom said on 19 Aug 2008 at 12:43 pm:
    Flag comment

    Marie says, “What I do believe is the borders and ports need to be sealed. That is the first step in combating illegal immigration.”

    I don’t think many disagree with that, with the exception of our Congress and both Presidential candidates. To that, I say, “just what is going on in this country”?

    Marie, I certainly don’t feel that you or anyone else who disagree with me is automatically dumb or naive, not at all. However, please consider this: We constantly hear about “demonstrating compassion” for the 12 - 20 million who violated our border…and believe it or not, we do have borders…but what do you hear of “compassion” for the hard-working taxpayers who with their tax dollars support those who are here illegally and want a piece of what we, not they, but WE have created?

    It does get to be more than a bit tiring….:(

  61. Anonymous said on 19 Aug 2008 at 1:10 pm:
    Flag comment

    I don’t see where Marie even mentioned the word “compassion”.

  62. TDB said on 19 Aug 2008 at 1:38 pm:
    Flag comment

    ICE Arrests 59 Illegal Aliens Employed by Defense Contractor

    Working to protect the nation’s critical infrastructure, ICE special agents on Wednesday arrested 59 illegal aliens working at Mills Manufacturing Corporation, a Department of Defense contractor that produces parachutes for the U.S. military.

    The arrests were based on an ICE critical infrastructure investigation that revealed that the illegal aliens had used fraudulent Social Security numbers to obtain employment. The company, located in Asheville, N.C., has been fully cooperative and is not a target of the ICE investigation. Illegal aliens employed at sensitive facilities — such as military bases, nuclear plants, chemical plants, airports, and Department of Defense contractors — pose a potential homeland security threat.

    ICE said it does not believe those arrested had any ill intent against the United States; however, their illegal status could have made them susceptible to blackmail by those with ill intent. By making the arrests, ICE neutralized a potential vulnerability. After interviewing all those arrested, ICE agents identified 29 individuals who qualified for release because they had medical, caregiver, or other humanitarian issues. These individuals must still appear before a federal immigration judge who will ultimately determine whether they will be deported.

    “Protecting the integrity of our nation’s critical infrastructure is among ICE’s highest priorities,” said Delburt Richburg, Assistant Special Agent-in-Charge of the ICE Office of Investigations in Charlotte. “When individuals use fraudulent Social Security numbers to get jobs, they hide their true identity and history. We need to know who is working on our critical infrastructure sites.”

    More information about this is available at: http://www.ice.gov/pi/nr/0808/080812asheville.htm.

  63. Marie said on 19 Aug 2008 at 2:03 pm:
    Flag comment

    edwardg said “Would you be so compassionate if 12 to 34 million White Irish came into this country illegally? …….But, since they are hispanic ,its all ok for you”

    I do not believe I mentioned or singled out any one ethic group. In case you are unaware there are illegal Europeans, Africans, Canadians, Asians, Middle Easterners, Hispanics, Austrailian’s, etc. in this country. You were the one who mentioned hispanics, not me. I think my statements were in regards to Not labeling all undocumented immigrants as violent criminals, sealing the borders and then doing something about the immigrant issues. Better go back and read it again.

  64. Anonymous said on 19 Aug 2008 at 2:25 pm:
    Flag comment

    Marie - over on anti you claimed you were beat up over here. Then you proceed to claim how anti is different. No it is not, I once posted almost the exact same thing you did over there - about the need to seal the borders first before anything else was done. They jumped all over me there saying that would take years and hold up amnesty, and called me anti-immigrant and a racist. So you can say all you want that the anti site is different but it is not. In fact, most times anyone who disagrees with them is labeled all sorts of nasty things, and the attacks continue until they are run off that site.

  65. Marie said on 19 Aug 2008 at 2:38 pm:
    Flag comment

    Most everyone I know over on anti believes that the borders should be sealed, however there are a few who believe there should be open borders. I have never had anyone of them label me or make nasty comments.

    I do not feel we could possibly ever absorb everyone who wants to come here and that is why I think the gov’t might want to work on sealing borders and ports. I think that sealing the borders and providing a way to legalize immigrants could be done simultaneously. I believe, no matter how pollyannish it sounds, if there is a will there is a way.

    Sorry, about your experience. I hope you will continue to express your views and opinions because opposing views get us all thinking.

  66. Marie said on 19 Aug 2008 at 2:41 pm:
    Flag comment

    Sorry. My last post was for Anonymous 19 Aug 2008 at 2:25 pm:

  67. /\/\3|)iç 64 (Winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award) said on 19 Aug 2008 at 3:29 pm:
    Flag comment

    Marie said on 19 Aug 2008 at 2:38 pm:

    Most everyone I know over on anti believes that the borders should be sealed, however there are a few who believe there should be open borders. I have never had anyone of them label me or make nasty comments.

    I do not feel we could possibly ever absorb everyone who wants to come here and that is why I think the gov’t might want to work on sealing borders and ports. I think that sealing the borders and providing a way to legalize immigrants could be done simultaneously. I believe, no matter how pollyannish it sounds, if there is a will there is a way.

    You say you do not feel we can absorb the ILLEGAL aliens, yet you want the Gov’t to provide a way for the ones here to become LEGAL. That, IMHO, sounds like amnesty no matter how you slice it. It also sounds like we will have to absorb them.

    Seal the border to incoming immigrants for 10 years.

    Give the ILLEGAL aliens 90 days to get their affairs in order and leave.

    Deport them and all family members without question after the 90 days.

    Use the proceeds from the sale of their processions to fund further investigations into ILLEGAL aliens in the country.

    I would also offer a reward for those turning in ILLEGAL aliens. If they were not ILLEGAL aliens, those who turned them in would have to serve time volunteering to clean trash along the road for 30 days. This would be a consequence for not doing your due diligence on the prospective ILLEGAL alien.

    Once the ILLEGAL aliens have self deported, we start overhauling the 14th Amendment and the current immigration laws.

    Once this has been accomplished, we start working on a visa program that can track the workers through a bar coding database.

    It is time for America to get back on the consequences for actions train and get on it soon because the PC train is headed for a major crash and we are all in the front car unknowing of the imminent impact!!!!

  68. Bridget said on 19 Aug 2008 at 4:18 pm:
    Flag comment

    Anyone here illegally can adjust their status to legal - by moving back home.


  69. Wolverine said on 19 Aug 2008 at 4:37 pm:
    Flag comment

    Greg, have to differ a bit with you on your assessment of crime levels among illegal aliens. You may well be right with regard to major crimes, e.g. murder, rape, gangbanging, unlawful death, etc. The fact is, however, that every single one of those illegals has committed a crime just by being here. Moreover, as a matter of survival in “the shadows”, so to speak, they have to commit crimes every day of the week, e.g. falsified IDs; falsified drivers licenses; stolen SS numbers; violation of zoning laws by overcrowding; etc.
    Finally, many of them seem to have become so comfortable at breaking the laws cited above that they continue to break other laws, as well as housing association rules, whenever they feel like it, even though breaking the laws/rules at that level is not necessary for survival in “the shadows.” Kind of dumb, really. By doing the latter, they foolishily bring themselves even more to the attention of an an already angry citizenry. When it comes to the “lesser crimes”, the percentage of illegals involved has to go way, way up. Therein lies the rub.

    In my experience, there are citizens who get very hot under the collar when they read or hear about another “major crime” being committed by an illegal. I would wager, however, that far more citizens are angrier far more often because they see at first hand how the “lesser crimes” are destabiliizing their streets, their neighborhoods, and even whole towns. The “lesser crimes” are not “victimless crimes.”

    Ask the guy whose home is infested with rodents because the multiple tenants in the neighboring single-family dwelling ignore the rules about the handling of solid waste. Ask the guy who has had to limit the nighttime activities of his own teenagers because the streets of his town have become too dangerous for them. Ask the guy whose driveway is constantly blocked by cars and commercial vehicles from a neighborhood “tenement.” Ask the guy whose has paid his mortgage and property taxes for many years, only to find that his property value is sinking because of the deterioration of the neighborhood. Ask the guy who has to plan his trips to the local shopping center because he had better avoid that area after dusk. Ask the school teacher who winds up devoting more time to maintaining classroom discipline than in actually teaching and, for personal safety, has present in her school an armed police officer, a parole officer, and a truant officer , not to mention a school security officer who looks like a refugee from the Redskin’s complex in Ashburn — all paid for by you, me, and her through higher property taxes. Ask the guy who sees illegals constantly unzipping trou and peeing in his front yard. Ask the businessmen who cannot afford to hire citizens or legal residents or even stay in business honestly because his competition is hiring illegals and getting away with it. Ask the guy whose car is creamed on the highway and who cannot get compensation because the other driver has fled and cannot be identified for certain anyway.

    Greg, certain areas of this state are experiencing a “crime wave” of sorts; and for many citizens this is, indeed, overwhelming.

  70. /\/\3|)iç 64 (Winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award) said on 19 Aug 2008 at 5:25 pm:
    Flag comment


    A well thought out and presented comment. I agree that the lesser crimes should be punished immediately. The sooner we get rid of the lesser crimes the sooner the major ones will disappear. I am not saying that ALL crime will disappear, but the crime that is committed by the ILLEGAL aliens in our neighborhoods. Once the neighborhoods are cleaned up and the ILLEGAL aliens are removed, the sooner we can get back to the America we all love. The problem is the PC police have taken over and we can not have consequences for our actions anymore. I am on the consequences for actions train and I hope I can persuade a few to join me on it. The ride is free (c;

    Once the neighborhoods are cleaned up to the point they are livable again, meaning the things you mentioned are no longer an issue, then we can go for the larger core of individuals. I firmly believe that the lesser criminals graduate to major criminals. Maybe it is as simple as they know no better since that is the way they did it at home. Possibly the example they had to go on has lead them down the wrong path. With this said, I do not think US citizens are the ones responsible to teach those who do not know right from wrong.

  71. Brian Leeper said on 19 Aug 2008 at 5:36 pm:
    Flag comment

    “The sooner we get rid of the lesser crimes the sooner the major ones will disappear.”

    The broken windows theory:


    I believe this theory to be true.

  72. Wolverine said on 19 Aug 2008 at 6:22 pm:
    Flag comment

    /\/\3, I like your thinking. Appears to me that what we are discussing here is a variation of the Guliani theory used in New York. Clean up the lesser things first and then you can address the larger issues more effectively.

    As I recall, one of the intiial efforts in New York was to stop vagrants from using the streets and public/private places as outdoor toilets. Unfortunately, we have a long ways to go here in Loudoun County. I see from the LCA blog/forum that , with the exception of Leesburg, Loudon County does not even have a public urination law. Unbelievable! In a sense, this once-rural county still hasn’t gotten out of the mid-20th century mindset, when most people acted appropriately just because it was the right thing to do.

  73. edwardg said on 19 Aug 2008 at 7:31 pm:
    Flag comment

    Marie… c’mon , you could have said please go back and read it again. I’d bet your’e a nice lady. But’ Ive taken more than a cursory glance ,and it would seem there is one particular ethnic group who disproportionately, and one in particular, that has invaded this country “en masse”.I won’t say which one…but I bet I can guess the first thing that comes to your mind . See, even you know which group it is. I would equally be against an invasion of white Irish, or Canadian, or whoever…. This is a soverign nation, And We the People have the right to enforce a system who, and how people enter our country. I’m sure you agree. So, youv’e taken a posture of accepting the “nice ones”. But even so….they don’t belong here,unless they enter legally. So, “please” check any bad attitudes at the door , because It sounds like your a nice person. Are you here legally? I guess I’d better check my attitude too….Peace. They really don’t belong here.

  74. Red Dawn said on 19 Aug 2008 at 7:47 pm:
    Flag comment

    Wolverine and Medic,

    “/\/\3, I like your thinking. Appears to me that what we are discussing here is a variation of the Guliani theory used in New York. Clean up the lesser things first and then you can address the larger issues more effectively.”

    A little off the topic of what you discuss BUT is it? :)

    Are you okay with this direction/idea?


  75. anon said on 19 Aug 2008 at 11:34 pm:
    Flag comment

    *Marie said on 18 Aug 2008 at 10:28 am:

    There is little if any evidence of a proclivity to crime among unauthorized immigrants. To make such a claim based on a some horrific incident, or even on the basis of multiple criminal incidents, doesn’t amount to proof of anything - other than the potential of human beings to do evil.*
    I listen to the Manassas police dispatch as part of my job. Many of the incidents involving Hispanic assaults, stabbings etc. go unreported in the newspaper. They seem to make up the majority of the calls that the Manassas P.D. get. Right now they are looking for an illegal in Berryville for a murder he committed, and in Fairfax they are looking for two illegals for another murder. Any murder by an illegal is one too many.

  76. NoVA Scout said on 20 Aug 2008 at 12:43 am:
    Flag comment

    Uh Greg . . . . .: About your 0037 comment to Monticup - I don’t know quite how to say this delicately so I’ll just come right at you with it. That sounded sort of, you know, “rational.” Sorry, but I had to say it. What gives? You confused the daylights out of some of your buds here. Tell you what - I’ll draw fire for a few seconds while you get yourself back together.

    Monticup et al. : If your kids were malnourished and couldn’t get an education, the economy had gone down the tubes (more than it already has), and you decided that there was no hope other than to try to sneak into a thriving Guatelmala to support them, I would not draw the immediate conclusion that you were a person of innate criminal bent. I’d be at least as likely to conclude that you were a brave and responsible parent, made desperate and driven to great risks by economic forces beyond your control.

    As Greg said (oops, sorry), people in these situations may occupy any number of positions on the moral spectrum from evil to saintly. The problem is that we don’t know who they are and we have no control over their movements. Once here, they’re forced into an underground economy that we can’t regulate and can’t account for. The argument for immigration reform doesn’t lie in the character or culture of the immigrants, it lies in the economic health, sound administration and orderly conduct of the federal government’s obligation to oversee immigration and naturalization and to maintain the security of the Nation. An essential element of any reform is to make it far easier to cross at an inspection point with proper papers than it is to sneak through the desert. That people make the latter choice is eloquent testimony to their desperation and devotion to bettering themselves and to the degree of federal neglect.

  77. anonymous said on 20 Aug 2008 at 1:39 am:
    Flag comment

    “I’d be at least as likely to conclude that you were a brave and responsible parent, made desperate and driven to great risks by economic forces beyond your control.”

    Let’s not forget, also, another force beyond your control: the stork delivering the baby with no notice at all. What a surprise that can be! Think of the bewilderment at discovering that you’re now a parent, with all of the attendant responsibilities. It can be very overwhelming, and could very well push a parent economically over the edge. In that situation a parent may well decide that the best solution is indeed to migrate to a more prosperous country.

  78. /\/\3|)iç 64 (Winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award) said on 20 Aug 2008 at 8:50 am:
    Flag comment

    Still does not excuse them for being here. EVERYONE has a hard luck story and the problem is, we are a compassionate nation to our detriment. We have to say enough is enough so we can continue on. If we do not stop this soon, we will be like the countries these people are trying to escape from. Once that happens, do you honestly think they will help us bring it back to the current status we have now? I say no because they left their own country when it was deep in third world status. Why would they want to help a country that is not theirs?

  79. CitizenofManassas said on 20 Aug 2008 at 12:15 pm:
    Flag comment


    I see you are running away from questions again. You say you want to deport illegals that have criminal records, yet you do not want to deport all illegals. What if all illegals were found to have criminal records, would you want to deport them all, or not?

  80. NoVA Scout said on 20 Aug 2008 at 9:48 pm:
    Flag comment

    Sorry CoM: I totally missed your question, whatever it was. As I ’splained to you before, I don’t read every comment or every thread. I just do this for relaxation in the evening after long days on my day laboring job (I’m just an hourly worker, you know) and on evenings when I’m not frolicking with child rapists and murderers. (I know irony isn’t your strong point - so I’ll state for the record that I’m joshing you here).

    But as to the question you just posed in the preceding comment, I guess I can answer your hypothetical unequivocally that if every illegal were guilty of some significant, malum in se vs, malum prohibitum, crime against life or property during their stay here (other than the 70 in a 65 mph zone -type thing) that I would support their return. You OK with that? It’s a good thing that these folks are largely a very law-abiding group so we don’t have to face that in the real world, isn’t it?

  81. Wolverine said on 21 Aug 2008 at 12:41 am:
    Flag comment

    Red Dawn, thanks for the lead to the NYT article. I can buy into that proposal even though I know a lot of our fellow Americans will start screaming about their liberties. Quite frankly, you have touched on what I used to do for a living. I have seen what terrorists can do, and it isn’t pretty. I can assure you that none of the victims in my experience were enjoying their liberties as their mangled earthly bodies were being carried to the grave.

    I once thought that 9/11 would finally wake up this country. I have much less hope when I consider our southern border. It could well be a sad road we are now following. A nation which forty years ago put a man on the moon can’t even get organized enough in 2008 to complete one simple, lousy fence! What kind of people have we become?

  82. anonymous said on 21 Aug 2008 at 12:45 am:
    Flag comment

    “What kind of people have we become?”

    You’ll find the answer to that sitting in front of the boob-tube watching “American Idol”.

    God help us.

  83. Wolverine said on 21 Aug 2008 at 1:19 am:
    Flag comment

    I know, Anonymous, I know. I personally took my boob-tube down to the basement four years ago and stowed it away. I swear I have watched nothing on that idiot box in all that time except the very last quarter of the Giant win over the Patriots. I can only describe the effects of my action by using the words of William Wallace a.k.a. Mel Gibson: “Freedom!!!!!!!”

  84. NoVA Scout said on 21 Aug 2008 at 8:00 am:
    Flag comment

    anon: 0139: I give Monticup (and CoM) credit for knowing where babies come from.

  85. anonymous said on 21 Aug 2008 at 9:20 am:
    Flag comment

    Let me break my comment down into something that hopefully won’t go over your head again, Nova:

    If you cannot feed them, don’t breed them.

  86. anonymous said on 21 Aug 2008 at 9:23 am:
    Flag comment

    In case you still can’t figure it out, that’s in response to your blather about responsible parents. A responsible adult considers their ability to provide for a family before starting one, since, in the real world, storks don’t deliver babies.

    Therefore, a responsible parent who can’t afford to feed their children isn’t. This applies whether their solution for the problem is to apply for WIC or to sneak across a board (and possibly do the same).

  87. anonymous said on 21 Aug 2008 at 9:23 am:
    Flag comment

    a board…a boarder.

  88. /\/\3|)iç 64 (Winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award) said on 21 Aug 2008 at 11:06 am:
    Flag comment

    Exactly the point I was making as well anon. If you can’t afford the little ones, don’t have them. I do not know how people with more than 2 can feed and clothe them these days. I had 3 and wouldn’t change it for nothing. I knew I could not afford anymore and I quickly fixed the issue. My ex is Catholic so she wouldn’t fix herself so I had to. I do not regret doing it one bit either. I feel it was the responsible thing to do.

  89. edwardg said on 21 Aug 2008 at 2:08 pm:
    Flag comment

    to anonymus…1st you have to be responsible and not have kids or a family if you can’t afford them..2nd if you do its your problem ..dont use that as an excuse to be in America displacing some American whose struggling in their own country. After 2 serious construction accidents ,and even 30 yrs of construction.. I never felt enough stability to have family. So, these people should be responsible for themselves. ….And,walking back to my hotel in Caracas, Venezuela one night , I was stopped and told to produce my passport. Only after it was confirmed to be legal was I treated nice. And, I have no doubt if I was illegal, I would have been taken away. Did you know that in some Latin countries they have many ,many, homeless children who huff glue, and steal, and pickpocket? The police sometimes kill these children as a means of crime control,thinking they wont grow up to be a criminal if they exterminate them young.

  90. edwardg said on 21 Aug 2008 at 2:21 pm:
    Flag comment

    And I never want to go to a construction site and have an illegal determining when or where or whether I can work there. But, tragically its a reality that already exists. But, they like to keep their jobs hispanic..you know ..illegals needs before Americans. I wish one presidential candidate was against this invaison as much as Americans. Barak is almost borderline enemy of the United States., because he’s diluded into thinking “they”have a right to be here. And he intends to help them stay. But like people full of dillusion, they believe theyre own BS.

  91. manassascityresident said on 21 Aug 2008 at 3:23 pm:
    Flag comment

    edwardg said on 21 Aug 2008 at 2:21 pm:

    I saw a special on the teenage huffers in Mexico. Very sad (and sickening). Why doesn’t it surprise me that they’d kill off their own citizens (kids)? YET, they don’t believe in the death penalty and will not extradite their criminals if they are facing it. What a world.

  92. AWCheney said on 21 Aug 2008 at 6:09 pm:
    Flag comment

    It may, manassascityresident, have something to do with the police, in general, being far more lawless than the average citizens. In most areas of Mexico, any policeman who tries to do his job is targeted for assassination, and the government does little or nothing about it. That doesn’t exactly provide a lot of incentive.

  93. elvis said on 22 Aug 2008 at 1:53 am:
    Flag comment


    i totally agree, if you cant afford to raise them then dont have them. apparently this common sense is lost on many, including illegal aliens. it seems as many illegals have children here in a vain attempt to legitimize themselves being here. not to mention the fact they believe it will be harder for them to be deported. they count on people feeling sorry for them, and sadly it works. who wants to deport a pregnant women or those who have kids that were born here? it makes the news when it happens and people go nuts. criminal behavior however slight breeds more criminal behavior, it’s so apparent with regard to illegal immigrants.

    as far as policemen, there are some honest ones however as Awc mentioned it’s not exactly lucrative employment and could get you killed by your own fellow officers as much as by a criminal.

    for redawn, I think chris royce proposed a version of the giuliani approach in his campaign. I think we would have a far different place here in woodbridge had he succeeded. can we have a do-over in the election?

  94. NoVA Scout said on 22 Aug 2008 at 9:13 am:
    Flag comment

    It’s a very interesting and perhaps revolutionary concept that people should not have children unless the financial security of the family unit can be assured during their minority. I have to confess that I didn’t follow that policy. Unlike you guys, I’ve been sort of paying for them as I go along. God has blessed me with reasonable good fortune and prosperity, but, frankly, when my first child was born, I hadn’t put away the thousands and thousands of dollars that I estimate she will cost me over the course of her sub-adult life (same with her sisters). I had just quit a good government job and was starting a business that I had no idea how it would turn out. At any point after her birth the external economy, illness, political events, personal misfortune, the business cycle, conflict in distant lands where some of my business partners and customers live, a fight with a boss (although I’ve had few bosses and very few disagreements with them) could have left me in a very bad way. If I had waited until I had bankrolled the kid project, I’d be beyond reproductive age.

    Recognizing that all of you in this thread who are advocating this approach had your together before you had kids, I venture to guess that you are in a very distinct minority, even within the USofA, and that you were all in your 50s before you had children. You obviously are all very active in Planned Parenthood also. Not what I expect to find on a blog where a lot of people think they are “conservative.”

    I consider it very remarkable that you all have shown such prescience and financial wizardry (not to mention decades of abstinence - if you didn’t rely on contraception) in your lives, but suggest that it’s not very realistic for most people here or abroad. I see a lot of people in the US who seem to have children without having first laid the groundwork of even having a basic wage or parenting skills to protect their children, so I conclude that the phenomenon you complain of is not peculiar to your much despised neighbors south of the border. I also have seen a number of heartbreaking situations where people start families feeling reasonably on top of things financially only to have bad breaks that leave them in serious straits. You don’t have to go to Central America to encounter these situations.

    Sometimes the act of having a child is a catalyst for inspiring financial discipline and responsibility. Your way would short circuit the many for whom that has been the case. Think how hard it is in Central America if you are in the lower echelons of society to predict whether you will be able to support children over a twenty year span into the future.

    But the life you have led is a radical (not necessarily in a negative sense) approach to family living and you all should have more publicity than you have received for living your values. It is truly unusual and could be the start of a movement. I’ll recognize you all on sight. You’re the distinguished-looking grandfatherly/grandmotherly types, very well-dressed, in nice cars and houses, loitering outside Nordstroms with toddlers who quite unexpectedly call you “Daddy” or “Mommy”.

  95. /\/\3|)iç 64 (Winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award) said on 22 Aug 2008 at 9:52 am:
    Flag comment

    Again NOVA, you simply amaze me at missing the entire point.

    I had children without having tens of thousands of dollars. The point I was making is, do not have 6-8 of them and expect everyone else to pay for their upkeep. Most can afford 2-3 with financial responsibility and maturity. No more going out to party and such.

    I can not understand how someone can go into the diatribe you did and totally miss the point.

  96. NoVA Scout said on 22 Aug 2008 at 10:00 am:
    Flag comment

    My point is that if your war cry is “Don’t Breed ‘Em if you Can’t Feed ‘Em”, we’re all subject to a number of potentially disastrous vagaries over the course of the 20+ years that one has to support a kid. I had no idea whether I would be able to feed my kids when they were born other than for a few months out at a time. And I have the advantage that through dumb luck I was born in a relatively stable country favored by a number of advantages over which I had not control and benefitted from through no merit of my own. So I suspect the calculus is even murkier in other parts of the world.

    So my suspicion is that, however admirable the idea is of not having children unless you know you can support them, it is not a practical solution to most of the world’s current labor migration problems. I take the point and agree, however, that aggressive family planning education is probably a good thing everywhere, particularly in the developing world.

  97. /\/\3|)iç 64 (Winner of the BVBL 40k and 50k post award) said on 22 Aug 2008 at 10:24 am:
    Flag comment

    I had no idea I would be able to feed them either, but I knew I would not be able to properly care for and feed 6-8 of them. I had as many as I could comfortably afford. That is the point. I am not just referring to ILLEGAL aliens, I mean all on welfare and such. It was pretty sad that I worked over 90 hours a week and still qualified for food stamps. There was an obscure law that allowed my employer to get out of paying overtime if I, as an EMT driving or participating on an ambulance call, crossed the state line. The law was written in 1930.

    I used the food stamp program until I was able to get back on my feet. This was only for about 3 months. I am not saying that those who need it not get the help. We all fall on hard times, but if we create the hard times ourselves, then we need to get out of them ourselves. If we have more children than we can afford, then we have to find someway to pay for them and not rely on the Gov’t to support them the entire time.

    The main problem is most are Catholic, which have no desire to control the number of children they have. They can all be blessings and I think children are, but one has to make sure they count their blessings to make sure those blessings don’t become someone else’s burden.

  98. anonymous said on 22 Aug 2008 at 10:58 am:
    Flag comment

    “And I have the advantage that through dumb luck I was born in a relatively stable country favored by a number of advantages over which I had not control and benefitted from through no merit of my own.”

    You were a government worker, so that is probably quite true.

  99. anonymous said on 22 Aug 2008 at 11:12 am:
    Flag comment

    “You obviously are all very active in Planned Parenthood also.”

    That’s a very interesting statement. The “planning” that Planned Parenthood seems to push happens long after conception.

    Neither you nor Planned Parenthood seem to like the idea of planning before conception.

  100. anonymous said on 22 Aug 2008 at 11:13 am:
    Flag comment

    The biggest difference, Nova, is that Planned Parenthood thinks they should get an abortion. You think they should sneak across a border.

  101. anonymous said on 22 Aug 2008 at 11:30 am:
    Flag comment

    I’ve noticed that a lot of liberals I’ve known often believe that what happens in their life is because of luck and things that are beyond their control. If something good happens, it was because of good luck. If something bad happens, it was because of bad luck.

    It’s a great way to avoid taking any responsibility for your actions, isn’t it?

  102. NoVA Scout said on 22 Aug 2008 at 6:49 pm:
    Flag comment

    Anon 1058: I took my government job in the first Reagan administration and left the private sector in California to do it. It was a heady time for us Conservatives (the real kind) - so don’t be too hard on me for that span of service to the Nation.

    Anon 1112, as my friend t will attest, I’m very much anti-abortion and very pro-life. I just assumed all you folks worried about the economics of reproduction would be very keen on contraception.

    Anon 1130 - I don’t know about what the liberals think about these things, but many of us Conservatives feel it is a very, very lucky thing to have been born in America. If you managed to do it by hard work and discipline, more power to you (neat trick, that) . But for me, I just happened to come down the chute within the lower 48 and, to the best of my knowledge, it had nothing to do with my individual efforts.

  103. Red Dawn said on 22 Aug 2008 at 9:51 pm:
    Flag comment

    Wolverine said on 21 Aug 2008 at 12:41 am:

    “I can buy into that proposal even though I know a lot of our fellow Americans will start screaming about their liberties. Quite frankly, you have touched on what I used to do for a living. I have seen what terrorists can do, and it isn’t pretty.”

    My question would be what is the alternative to people gripping about LIBERTIES, if we have never lost them before to know the difference?

    I am right there with you brother ( or sister) as far as when an event occurs, it is the aftermath of thought that STARTS with what could of should of we done different….After THAT and the shock wears off, the truth/rational thoughts begin.

  104. Red Dawn said on 22 Aug 2008 at 9:59 pm:
    Flag comment

    elvis said on 22 Aug 2008 at 1:53 am:

    “for redawn, I think chris royce proposed a version of the giuliani approach in his campaign. I think we would have a far different place here in woodbridge had he succeeded. can we have a do-over in the election?”

    I cannot answer that as I don’t know what he was marketing. ;) I would just ASSUME that Woodbridge is no different from any other place in PWC that has not seen enough CHANGE due to the elections. John Stirrup?

  105. CitizenofManassas said on 23 Aug 2008 at 12:48 am:
    Flag comment


    Exactly how can criminals be otherwise law abiding? But, thanks for clearing up that you are in fact in favor of deporting all illegals.

  106. NoVA Scout said on 23 Aug 2008 at 7:17 am:
    Flag comment

    Silly boy, CoM. Maybe an ESL class would help.

  107. CitizenofManassas said on 23 Aug 2008 at 4:43 pm:
    Flag comment


    You are not a conservative, no matter how many times you want to say you are. I’m not exactly sure why you are calling me a silly boy when you clearly support my position of deporting all illegals. It took some time but you boxed yourself in and had to give up the silly word games.

  108. CitizenofManassas said on 23 Aug 2008 at 4:50 pm:
    Flag comment


    You claim it is just by blind luck to be born here in America that had a number of advantages. Well, exactly how did America get those advantages say over another Country? I say it was hard work, the RULE OF LAW, good ethics, and determination that made America a great Nation. It is not as if we all just woke up one day and said we would like to have a great life in a great Nation.

    Many nations mainly 3rd World dumps are in their position because they do not follow the rule of law, do not have hard working people looking at the larger picture and rely on sending their masses here illegally to keep afloat.

  109. anonymous said on 23 Aug 2008 at 5:51 pm:
    Flag comment

    “You are not a conservative, no matter how many times you want to say you are.”

    He claims to be a “real conservative”, I’m just curious as to whether he figured that out before or after the Carter administration.

  110. AWCheney said on 24 Aug 2008 at 1:17 am:
    Flag comment

    Try Goldwater, 1964…right NoVA? Now me, I only go back to Reagan, 1968…although I had a great admiration for Goldwater.

  111. NoVA Scout said on 25 Aug 2008 at 7:54 am:
    Flag comment

    Bingo, AWC. Thanks. And although I was part of a great legion, I don’t think anyone worked harder than I did to make sure Carter’s service to the Nation ended in 1980.

    CoM, I was born after WWII and, alas, had nothing to do with the great efforts of those who founded and settled this nation. If you were part of that, hats off to you. America got its advantages through geography, natural endowment, and the remarkable conglomeration of foresighted intellects who distrusted human passions and tendencies toward totalitarianism. They built a machine that worked against those evils to keep us from reverting to the institutional thuggery that sometimes marred the monarchies of their time and experience. I missed all that and was feeling rather old until I encountered you.

  112. anonymous said on 25 Aug 2008 at 12:37 pm:
    Flag comment

    If it weren’t for the efforts of the people who came after those who founded and settled this nation, it would have fallen apart long ago.

    In other words, that machine they built needs maintenance and upkeep, and, occasionally, some repairs, just like any other machine.

  113. CitizenofManassas said on 25 Aug 2008 at 3:40 pm:
    Flag comment


    You have still done you part as has all Americans who put in their hard work. We can’t simply rest on the achievements of those that came before us.

  114. CitizenofManassas said on 25 Aug 2008 at 3:41 pm:
    Flag comment

    Should say have all Americans…..

Comments are closed.

Views: 4695