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• Whether the good, service or facility is available to candidates in the same election on an equal basis,

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Situation 17. Museum K is a section 501(c)(3) organization. It owns an historic building that has a large hall suitable for hosting dinners and receptions. For several years, Museum K has made the hall available for rent to members of the public. Standard fees are set for renting the hall based on the number of people in attendance, and a number of different organizations have rented the hall. Museum K rents the hall on a first come, first served basis. Candidate P rents Museum K’s social hall for a fundraising dinner. Candidate P’s campaign pays the standard fee for the dinner. Museum K is not involved in political campaign intervention as a result of renting the hall to Candidate P for use as the site of a campaign fundraising dinner.

In Soviet Russia, you don’t follow the law, the law follows you. In a University somewhere in our great nation, that Soviet Russia is being reborn.

Because I misguidedly thought I lived in the United States, where there is the RIGHT to free speech and free thought and freedom of religion - any religion - not just the Christ based ones. Where I should not have to RISK any type of condemnation because of my beliefs.

BTW, more people watched the John McCains acceptance speech then watched Obama’s.

No one is disputing whether the church has a right to exist. As you can plainly tell from my comments, I firmly believe that a church (the congregation) must second politics to salvation, for the former will not lead to the latter. Furthermore, if you believe that your pastor is apolitical in her leadership of the church, regardless of what she does in the voting booth, and her sole focus is on helping her congregation understand that there is only one path to salvation, then IMVHO, she is indeed fulfilling her role as a pastor, for those seeking the path.

What I am saying is that I don’t think Church facilities should be used to host political rallies, for the very reason that they could divide a congregation. Pastors shouldn’t endorse candidates, if they are affiliated with a particular church, because they speak for that church. Respectfully, I think you, Bruce, might have used better judgment and found an alternate location for your party. Why risk bringing any community and/or government condemnation on your church?

your work here is righteous, but might be fruitless as well. there seems to be a lack of diversity here re: freedom of religion.

i just wanted to offer some, what do they call them, oh yea, facts. nothing can replace hearing the words in person as Rev. Nancy is truly our gift, but the pod cast of the August 17th sermon on Promises she did was not only instructive re: our “politics” but also mentions Jesus!
http://www.bruu.org/index.php?page=services&past=listen#anchor-past

as a member of BRUU and listening to this amazing woman for several years now, this is as close to politics as she’s ever come (that i know of), and this sure wouldn’t even count in hand grenades. btw marty, you didn’t even mention the Ron Paul supporters we have at BRUU…

but boy was i pleased with my private party to listen to Senator Obama’s acceptance speech. the room was packed and i’m sure the crowd was as big as the Republican watching party. and in Manassas and western prince william!!

you all don’t have to go to our church, just don’t tell us we can’t. we UU’s got a lot of values and history that we’re not willing to let go of.

bruce roemmelt

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=28910

They are actually appearing there:

“San Diego (California Catholic Daily) - Senators John McCain and Barrack Obama will meet for their first joint appearance of the 2008 presidential campaign at Saddleback Valley Community Church in south Orange County this coming Saturday. “

Speaking from your own experiences is what we need. Thanks. That is all I was trying to do.

While your church may not be political. You must admit it is not true of all. Some Ministers actually endorse a candidate. Here is an example. Google had about a million others:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/02/27/hagee_endorses_mccain_1.html

Should the IRS go after Rev Hagee and his church for endorsing McCain?

No. It’s not that way in my church. Not even close. My Church doesn’t allow outside organizations to use its facilities, I suspect for this very reason, nor would it permit me, a church member to host a political event, which even you don’t dispute the political nature of the BRUU event in question. It seems that my (Biblically) conservative church takes a (Legally) conservative view of the letter and spirit of the IRS code. As far as the facts go, I am basing my opinions on scripture, with regards to the efficacy of the BRUU’s fulfillment of its mission, and the IRS Code with regards to its violation of, well, the IRS Code.

Flavius said: “The line prohibiting churches from advocating for a particular party or candidate is pretty clear.” Yes it is and BRUU is far from that. Because the church is not the advocate. It’s members are.

It’s probably the same in your church. Anywhere the is both faith and political interest.

I’m just relating the facts.

If Christ was the focus of the church, it would be easy to see.

Marty W. has been deceived, or is trying to deceive you. If a church’s mission statement is not “to lead people to Christ”, then they have failed, or been hijacked by the evil one. Christ said “I am the way, the truth and the light. No one will see the Father, except through me”.

All this clap-trap about diversity, being “heard” is just a smoke-screen.

Now, on to the secular point that Greg has made: The BRUU has a long history of walking the line between “faith-based community advocacy” and outright political participation. The Church’s property cannot be used for activities prohibited by IRS code. There is case-law that supports this. In a recent case in New Jersey, a lesbian couple wanted to have their “civil-union” performed at a gezeebo owned by a Methodist Church. The “couple” wasn’t even a member of any christian denomination (they were Jewish). The Pastor refused the request and cited that same-sex unions are against the churches beliefs and teaching. The “couple” sued, won in court. Part of the penalty against the church was that the tax exemption on the gezeebo was revoked.

The line prohibiting churches from advocating for a particular party or candidate is pretty clear. Allowing this event to be held at the BRUU is the same as endorsing the event. The line has been crossed here…plain and simple.

I participate in it.

I was even on the selection committee that chose the current minister.

I can only speak for myself. My opinions. In stead of leaving, I participate. I listen. I am heard.

“The UU push a if it feels good do it attitude, which has watered down the Christian message.” This is NOT the attitude.

Not every Church is perfect, for example, we left the United Methodist Church because we disagreed with many of the views and opinions the Church started to develop. However, compare their website and beliefs with the UU church and there is no comparison.

However, that being said. How can you say a church that seems to be more concerned with “diversity” that it does not even mention the Bible on their website is “Christ like”? The UU push a if it feels good do it attitude, which has watered down the Christian message.

The Beyer Memorial Library there is focused on books about world faiths and books about the 2nd Amendment. The member that left the cash to build it was member of BRUU, a good man and a lifetime NRA member.

I believe BRUU is more than meets the eye.

As my wife says, “Judge not, least yea be judged.”

I am a Christian. One of the few that actually study the bible.

Please provide direct quotes when you reference it. I always do.

BTW, It also says that you are obliged to kill anyone that works on the Sabbath:

Exodus

31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

BTW, at the time it was written Saturday was the sabbath.

I was raised in a Methodist church. I have attended several other kinds over my lifetime. BRUU is the most Christian (Christ like) church I have ever attended.

What is the specific issue we are discussing?

I just visited the BRUU website and funny enough, the words gay, diversity, lesbian are mentioned more times than Jesus, the Bible, and God. Below is the just an example of why many view the church as they do.

BRUU Mission Statement
Bull Run Unitarian Universalists (BRUU) exists to nurture ourselves, our community, and our natural world in the pursuit of spiritual and intellectual growth. We give expression to our mission through celebrating our diversity and giving of our talents and resources with justice, equity and compassion. We work toward our goals through an open democratic process, respecting the views of each individual and seeking to protect the interdependent web of life.

[Ed note: a diversity of perspective that ranges all the way from communism to socialism. That website is really an eye opener!]

Actually it’s not that interesting. The church is not about partisan politics. It’s about faith, and people and community.

It ’s the kindest most welcoming congregation I have ever seen. Welcoming of anyone. Everyone from homosexuals to NRA members alike. Rock band members to US Marines.

I love the diversity.